National Park After Dark - People of the Parks: Andrea Lankford

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

For our second installment of People of the Parks, we sit down with Andrea Lankford to discuss her career in the NPS in units including The Grand Canyon and Yosemite, her celebrated literary works such as Ranger Confidential and her astonishing outdoor accomplishments. We chat about what it is like being a woman in the outdoors and how to be safe. An avid believer in outdoor exploration, Andrea is an advocate of solo ventures for all. For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners! Feals: Code NPAD for 50% off your first order with free shipping Reel: Use code NPAD for 30% off your first orderThe Pill Club: Get your birth control subscriptions delivered to your door for free and make a donation to bedside.org to help low-income individuals get access to birth controlFor a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This structure can be spotted from miles away. It serves as the gateway to Yellowstone National Park, but its inscription holds true to all parks for the benefit and enjoyment of the people. People, hundreds of thousands of us pass under this arch and drive through the gates of National Parks around the globe, eagerly anticipating the natural wonders that lie beyond them. But what about the people behind the scenes? The people who keep us safe, haze bears, guide us to the best trails,

arrange educational displays in the Visitor's Center, or present ranger talks. In this special segment of National Park After Dark, we speak to the people under the flat brims of the Stensons who have lent their skills, passions, and careers, to the National Park Service and in turn to all of us. Welcome to People of the Parks. Welcome everyone to our second People of the Parks episode.

Our second ever, we're so excited to introduce and have this as a part of our show because we get to bring something a little bit different to all of you. And then we also get to do some more fun stuff on our end. And this week we have a very, very special guest. Yes, it's so nice to have people telling us stories. and learning from people instead of, I love spreading what we learn through our research for every episode. But it's so nice to sit down with the best of the best in the field and people who have such experience within the park's firsthand. It's incredible. And we really wanted to make

a segment that we can have those conversations, but also share them with everybody else. There's just something that's so different from actually researching it and going through books. and stuff like that to actually talking to people who have real life experience. And that's what we're doing today. We are talking to someone who has real life experience within the national parks. This former ranger spent over a decade working for the park service and rules ranging from law enforcement, district ranger, criminal investigator, firefighter, and in search and rescue. Her career might sound astounding, but her outdoor achievements are just a lot of sense. as extraordinary. Her feats include through hiking the entire 2,200 mile length of the Appalachian Trail,

kayaking from Miami to Key West, cycling from Fairbanks to the Arctic Ocean, and being the very first to mountain bike the 800-mile Arizona Trail from Utah to Mexico. Along with her outdoor accomplishments, she is also an accomplished writer. With four books under her belt and one on the way, she shares her experiences with the world through award-winning literary works, including Ranger Confidential, living, working, and dying in the National Parks. Please welcome Andrea Langford. Andrea Langford, thank you so very much for joining us. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Thanks. I'm glad to be on your show. Yeah, we're really, really excited to have you with us today. We both read your book, Ranger Confidential, and we loved it. And we loved all the points that you had on

there. So we're really excited that you came on to talk to us today. Good. I'm so glad you liked the book. I worked hard on it. I know it's one of many, but this is definitely the one book that people send us over and over. We have a lot of, you have a lot of fans within our audience. So thank you again for coming on. And we're obviously familiar with your background via reading your book and reading up on you, but just for our audience, can you please take us back a little bit? And obviously right now, you had a very accomplished career within the National Park Service. But take us back to the beginning, what inspired you, how did you get into the Park Service? Just elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah, well, when I was young, I grew up in Tennessee and my dad was a big hiker. So he took us

hiking all the time, even when we were little and didn't want to go, he would take us. And so through that experience, that's how I kind of got hooked on the outdoors. And then as I got older, I knew I wanted to work in the outdoors. So I went to the University of Tennessee and got a degree in forestry and wildlife management. I did not picture that I would be a law enforcement officer, but I had a boyfriend that got a job with the National Park Service, and he said, if we go to this little training, this six-week training, we can be federal cops. We can be park rangers. I said, well, that sounds fun. It was, you know, during the recession back then, and I didn't have a good job yet after I graduated from college. So I got a seasonal job at Cape Hatteras, National Seas Shore, and I was immediately

hooked. Probably, I blame the sea turtles, you know, when I was helping the next sea turrets. nesting and protecting those nests from the predators and vehicles. And that's what I fell in love with being a park ranger and the mission. And the mission of a park ranger, law enforcement ranger is protect the people from the park, the park from the people, and the people from themselves. So a park ranger is caught in between all of that. It's a lot to balance for sure. And we've certainly seen that in a lot of our stories that we cover,

a lot of the stuff that park rangers have to deal with, especially protecting people from the parks and people from themselves for sure. And I love that you bring up the sea turtles because I loved that part in your book. I think everybody can kind of pinpoint their moment that changed the trajectory of their lives and inspired them in some way. And I love that yours were sea turtles. Yeah. Obviously, you got into the park service and you loved it.

what were some of the challenges that you faced once you joined? Well, right away, being a law enforcement officer in a remote area without backup for an underfunded agency, right away, it was exciting, but also a little scary, you know, pulling over cars late at night, not knowing what the person was up to and what their intentions were. Then later, as I moved to Western Parks, I went to Zion and Yosemite and Grand Canyon, those big parks were threatening themselves. And I was, I recovered more bodies than I can count. And so I got to see up close, you know, what nature's wrath could do to a human body. And as much as I love the outdoors and

and loved the thrill of it, I was also in my face how dangerous it could be. Right. And that's one something that because you have an extensive background in the outdoors, despite having all of these things that you've seen up close and personal, seeing all these tragedies and what nature does do. And it's incredible that you worked. How long were you in the park service for? I worked for the National Park Service for 12 years. Wow. That's a long time. Before I left. And so it's sort of being a park ranger is, it's almost like a, You're worshipping a fearsome God in a way, you know, because the park is part of your religion.

It doesn't matter what religion you have, but you still, it's your temple, it's your church. And so you really love it, but sometimes you're scared of it because you've seen it hurt people. Sometimes it hurts you if you have an accident. So it's a people will ask me, what's your favorite park? And I'll say, well, it's Grand Canyon, but it's a love-hate relationship. Right. I know that you said that you worked in Zion and Yosemite and Cape Hatteras and all of those places, I'm sure, brought vastly unique situations and experiences and lessons learned. But there's one thing that we really noticed throughout your book that we really enjoyed. It was a threadline of your experience as a woman in the national park system.

We found that very interesting because as women and living a woman experience, we can only imagine, like, I remember you were bringing up, you got nicknames like the rangerettes. And there were times that you didn't maybe felt like you weren't being taken as seriously or didn't have the confidence given to you from superiors and things like that. And we were just kind of interested in that experience and how you overcame it and how it maybe changed the way that you handled yourself as a park ranger? Yeah, that's a good topic. I, so for some context, I started in 1987, but also, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. I sort of, you know, the woman's movement had already happened. I sort of thought, it wasn't a thing anymore. This

shouldn't be a thing. You know, I was naive. So I'm not going to a male dominated field, which is kind of male dominated two ways. It's outdoors and it's law enforcement and firefighting, you know, it's search and rescue. So when I started to face sexism, sometimes I would be like, what? Where is this done? Why is this happening? I, you know, I would often think it was just stupid. And back then, you know, my tactic was I fought fire with fire. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that today, that strategy. But sometimes that backfired on me. But, I'm like, okay, well, if I'm going to take it, I'm going to dish it right out, right back. And so I would be in people's face a lot if they, you know, they rubbed me the wrong way with the sexism thing.

And so in Ranger Confidential, I try to have a little fun with that. I call it the Ranger Olympics where we're all trying to win the Ranger Olympics and get gold. And so there's a lot of competition. And so then you add a sexism element in there and then some sexual tension in there. It was fun and weird and scary and frustrating and sometimes infuriating all at the same time. Did you feel a sense of having to prove yourself just because you are a woman and your abilities and experience, even as you were climbing the ladder of you weren't a rookie forever? But with that being said, do you still feel like people treated you differently because of your gender? Some did for sure. Now, a caveat with that is, you know, I married a Ranger. I'm still married to him, you know, and so most of the men were awesome. I love them. And, but there's this segment, you know, that just seems to hold on to some of these old-fashioned values. I did not at first because I was like, duh, why is this an issue? But then later, like at Yosemite, for example, I was pulled into.

to the superintendent's office and told I was a test case that I needed to prove that women can handle working Yosemite Valley. And that was sort of like, what? And so being a test case isn't fun. It is not a good situation to be in because you start to feel like any mistake you make isn't a personal mistake. You've made a mistake for your whole gender. Yeah, that's a lot of pressure. It's way too much pressure. He should have never said that to me. He did mean way. but that did put a lot of pressure on me. If I fail, I've failed from my entire gender. And that wouldn't happen on the men's side, I'm sure.

If a man was to make a mistake, it wouldn't be like, oh, we can't hire men, obviously. Right. Yeah, that's so much pressure to be put on just because of your gender. Yes. And I would, if any young woman came to me today, I would say, don't fall for it. You know, I can say that all they want, but that's BS, you know, just do the best. you can and make as few as mistakes as possible, but don't fall for anything like that. Throughout your time working in the Park Service, did you notice more and more women joining?

Not really. My understanding is the ratio is about the same it was when I was in the service. Oh, wow. Yes. In law enforcement, I'm not sure about, you know, there's all different types of Rangers, but I believe with law enforcement rangers, the ratios are close. They haven't improved much. that's really interesting because I feel like over the years there's definitely more and more women who are getting into the outdoors. So that's interesting that it hasn't necessarily changed among the like law enforcement side. I know my partner, he has worked as a wildland firefighter for years. And he said kind of the same thing that you're saying where he'll have like one girl that's on the crew or none at all. And it's kind of been a thing.

but it's interesting because I feel like over the years, so many more women have been getting outside and doing things like the Appalachian Trail or the PCT and things like that. So that's very interesting. Well, if there's any women out there, go for it. Yeah, I agree. There has been improvements in leadership, though. We've had a female chief ranger of Great Smoky Mountains

and a female chief ranger of Yellowstone just in the last two years says that they were the first. So that's a recent improvement, but that has happened. That's amazing. It's surprising that it's so recent, but that's amazing that it's happening. That's really exciting. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, The Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting.

Watch only on Prime. So going back to something that Cassie actually brought up a little bit earlier in the conversation, and she was talking about your experiences of things that you've seen within the park, and you mentioned that you've been on the scene of some not-so-great outcomes, taking that into account with what we know of your marvelous. outdoor expeditions that you've done on your own, like hiking the Appalachian Trail and cycling and kayaking and all of those amazing feats that you did, you're obviously doing these adventures. It seems like you haven't really been deterred from being a woman in

outdoors, even though you see that things can go wrong. From our perspective, from an outside perspective, it seems like the news is flooded with everything that could go wrong for women in the outdoors alone. And you have said previously that you don't subscribe to the notion that women should not do things outside by themselves. Can you tell us more about that? Yes, I can. It's sort of a paradox situation because as a ranger, I saw pretty much everything that could go wrong, but also because of my experience and my training, I also am confident that I can handle it or I'm prepared. And so I feel very confident in the outdoors. So I realize that's a paradox.

And so whenever I hear these people, women shouldn't hike alone and women shouldn't be out there really rubs me the wrong way because I don't believe that's true. and statistically, I'm right. The statistics do not back that up that it's more unsafe for a woman than it is for a man in the outdoors. Can you tell us more about the statistics of it? Yes, and now statistics are a funny thing. You know, what Mark Twain says is lies, damn lies, and statistics.

So there's a lot of nuance to this. And we don't have very good statistics about, especially with gender and, you know, dividing all that out by activity. But there is an expert, Dr. Robert Koester. He wrote a lost person behavior. He's a search expert, PhD. And he looked at some numbers. And he says that 80% of search and rescue calls for help are made by men. Now, there's more men in the backcountry. So that might explain that. Now, of those calls, of the men that made those calls, 12% died of the women that made those calls, only 9% died. So women statistically actually have a better chance of surviving being lost or injured in the

outdoors than a male does. Very interesting. Do you know why that may be or do you have any personal insight to that? There's theories. One theory is that men are more risky than women. Another theory kind of along those lines is because women are so afraid, you know, we're giving this fear porn kind of about don't be out there that we're more careful because of that. There's a term. They call it the fear gender paradox where women are more afraid to be outdoors, but we're lessly, we're actually less at risk than a male who might assume that he's safe.

That's really interesting to hear. And I really like hearing that and learning about that because me, myself, I really, I really, really love solo hiking and a lot of just like little day hikes I love going outside alone and many times they get why are you out there by yourself you shouldn't be out on the mountain alone like there are creeps out there there's weirdos out there things can happen and I'm like well no one wants to hike with me and I love being by myself so it's really nice to hear that it's not as dangerous as people may think like a lot of people won't do a day hike alone a short one or whatever just because they are a woman.

Yeah. And there's something to be said as well about that because I can tell you I probably fear being alone in the outdoors just as much as or less than I fear being alone in a parking garage going to my car at night as a woman. So as far as being outdoors in some ways, I feel more safe by myself in the outdoors versus, you know, I just feel like the chances of something going wrong when it comes to interactions with people are vastly higher in day-to-day life. The statistics back your intuitive feeling up, that you as a woman or a man, you're more

at risk in a city environment, much more, like up to 10 times more than you are in a wilderness environment. Now, solo hiking is a little bit of a caveat. Now, when we solo hike, we are male or female. It's not about gender. It's about the activity. and what you're doing in the situation. And so you are more at risk of injury, you know,

or a bad outcome when you're solo. And it just makes sense. You don't have help, things like that. One theory is the reason that happens is that when we're alone, we don't have another partner that might say, hey, that looks sketch. Let's not do that. And so we do something stupid like we shortcut.

So one tactic we can make when we hike alone so that we are safer is pretend we have this, a real cautious partner on our shoulder. And so we think of something and they'll go, no, that's not safe. Don't do that. Yeah. So that would be one strategy you could use and that would be backed up by statistics. But remember that it's not about gender. This is about what activity you're doing, your fitness level, the weather, how prepared you are, luck, you know, acts of God, you know, so really, gender's not part of it. And if it is, a woman is more safe than a male. Now maybe that will change as more women get out there and we become riskier ourselves because we become more confident

perhaps that might even out. You talked about being prepared and knowing what's going on. What's some advice that you have for women who are going out into the outdoors to be more prepared and more knowledgeable while they're out there? I would look at your whatever trip, look at it as an expedition. And even if you only do it mentally in your mind, have a safety plan. What am I carrying? What's the weather? How far am I going to be out that day? You know, is there been news lately about a wildfire or a violent person on that area? You know, do some research about it. And then look at your activity. For example, if I'm just going to go hiking three hours on a trail that I've been five times, I have no problem. I'm going to go alone. I love being alone. But if I'm going to do a three-day expedition cross-country in the snow, probably not going to do that alone. I'm probably going to work for that. So, you know, do have your own little algorithm of when to go alone, how prepared to be. And just look at it like you're a professional. You're going to do something so you have a plan.

On that, I would like to talk about violence on the trail. Please. Yes, please. Because there is a little bit, another nuance and caveat there. Now, when it comes to violence, women are more at risk of sexual violence than men. But men are more at risk of all other types of violence. robbery, a fight, you know, all that men are more at risk for that. So it's another one of those nuances. And then what if that interesting, like the Appalachian Trail, for example, I looked at

the murders on the Appalachian Trail, and I looked at 12 murders on the Appalachian Trail. Five of those were men, the victims, and seven were women. Of the seven women that were murdered, only three of those seven were alone when they were murdered. So what I have to take a lot of from that is being with somebody doesn't necessarily protect you. Yeah. On that Pacific Crest Trail, there's only been one murder that I'm aware of, and it was a male who was murdered, a trail runner in 1994, and that's still unsolved. On the PCT, it's more accidental deaths.

So the 14 accidental deaths on the PCT, 10 were men, four were women. There's more men that do the PCT, so that by explain it. Another thing with violence, my attitude is when I hike solo, I'm not really out there to get dates and make friends. So I sort of, I'm nice, but I'm not real friendly. And I feel for the guys, you know, because they're real curious about you. Hey, you know, when they see women alone. And most of it is so benign. And so I just try to, hey, how you doing nice?

Sure. And book. I'm just not there to make friends with them and put myself more at risk. And if you're a man listening to this, if a woman who's alone acts unfriendly to you, just maybe have some compassion and just say to yourself, she's just trying to be safe. Don't take it personally. Yeah, right. We don't know who's safe and who's not.

Yes. Right. And, you know, we've talked about that before. Just like, I think we joked a few episodes about like if either of our partners were alone on the trail, we know that they want to be friendly if they came across a solo female hiker. but those females don't know them and they're the nicest guys in the world but to somebody else they could pose a danger or a threat and it's just don't take it personally and i totally subscribe to your sentiment about that i'm not there to make friends i'm there to do my own thing and

find my joy for the day good to see you but yeah i'm not looking to have a strike up a new lifelong friendship with you and of course that's different for everybody and every circumstance is different, but great point. Yeah, don't take it personally if somebody doesn't want to be your best friend. Yeah, I live right off of the long trail in Vermont and I go out on those trails all the time because I'm really familiar with them and I go alone and I don't talk to people. The whole, like, I'll be like, hey, have a nice hike, you know, like trail etiquette. But besides that, I'm the same way. I'm not mean, but I'm certainly not friendly and I'm not trying to make friends. And it is because I'm alone. And you just, you really never know. I did want to ask,

that you brought up the the PCT versus the Appalachian Trail, we do know that you're working on a new book about some missing hikers from the PCT, three gentlemen in particular, correct? Yes. I know that you've been working on that for quite a while. Is that coming out this summer, hopefully, fingers crossed? Yeah, I'm hoping in 2023. Okay. I know a lot of people were excited and waiting for that book, but the publishing industry can

move slow. And so we're hopeful at 2023, you'll get to see it. And that is three young men who went missing on the Pacific Crest Trail. And we do not know what happened to them. And this, the book is also about the people who are working so hard to try to find them. Yes. And we know that you have a website dedicated to that. And if everybody wants to look up details about the gentleman in the work that everyone is doing for their cases, and of course, to look out for your book, we'll provide that information. but I just found it very interesting that you chose to do that for your next book because the news outlets and I don't know if it's just my algorithms are so tailored to everything that all the bad things that we research and all that. So I just get pushed with a bunch of X, Y, and Z happen to this woman or this can go wrong to this, you know, if you're a woman in the outdoors and all that. And not to say that it's refreshing, but it is grounding to know that this does happen to other people.

and there are men that have gone missing and we don't know what happened to them. And it is very interesting that there's such a difference between the Appalachian Trail and the PCT as far as, like you said, with those statistics with murders and violent crimes, do you know why that is? It is fascinating. Why so many, there's so many murders on the 18. Now, remember, you're 10 times more likely to get murdered in Chicago than you are on the Appalachian Trail at least 10 times. It's not more. Yeah. Right.

But for some reason, the Appalachia Trail has got a lot more murders associated with it where, like I said, on the PCT, there's only one that I know of. And that was even a trail runner who people were breaking into his car on the trailhead. That's the theory. And he got in a fight with them. And he was killed in that fight. So it's a little bit, you know, it's not really a hiker death per se. So I don't have a good answer for that. But there are, when my book comes out, you'll see there are a lot of shady characters that do hang out on the PCT. Not a lot. There are some, I should say. There's some. There are, it is obviously a potential there, but for some reason, the AT has just been a more brutal trail as far as the number of murders go relative to the PCT.

Circling away from the more dangerous and scary side of the trails, do you have a particular excursion or adventure that you've done that has been your favorite experience? Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I didn't get to brag about all that I did. Yeah, I was going to say, I want to hear about all of your adventures. And I think it's important because most of this, I either did alone or with another woman. And for the most part, I felt entirely safe. I got like tens of thousands of miles on my feet, right?

Amazing. So I did that entire Appalachian Trail in 1999. I was the first to backpack. This is like your backpacking with your mountain bike, the Arizona Trail from Utah to Mexico. I kayaked from Miami to Key West, and I cycle basically from Fairbanks to the Arctic Ocean, camping all the way. Most of those were either done by myself or with a woman, another woman. Amazing.

And the experiences where, you know, there's some misadventures attached to all those things, but I rarely felt threatened in any violent way at all. So as far as my favorite, now, that's like trying to get a mother to pick her favorite child or something. I know. Jesse with a hard-hitting question. Yeah, I know, but I would probably have to say the Appalachian Trail, there's just something so enchanting and magical about doing the through hike. It's just a wonderful experience. So if I had to pick, that's what I'm going to pick. Do you think that part of why you pick that one would be the experience with the people that are along that trail because there's so many AT hikers? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question.

To me, it was maybe a little crowded for my taste. But it's hard to explain. It's like a, it's a pilgrimage. So there's almost a spiritual community thing that's happening along with the nature, seeing the seasons change. And it's very much a journey that's unique. And so you're on to something that something about the community and the trail community makes that adventure special.

I have a few friends who hiked the AT this past year in the year before. And I took in, because we live off of the long trail, we took in some hikers just to like give them a night to sleep and stuff and just hearing their adventures. And they kind of had similar things to say where it's like, we love the trail because of all the friends that we've made and all of the stories. And we had a couple of people come to our house and they had met on the long trail. And then they became really great friends and hung out with us. And it was just like a really magical experience because of the adventures with the people that they met along the way. Yes, you do stay friends. I'm still good friends, especially with one person that I hiked that part of the AT with.

You know, you hike alone and then you meet up with people and see them, you know, throughout the journey. Yeah, one of my friends, she did it. And she's like, I didn't realize I was a slow hiker until I got onto the AT. She's like, and I ended up catching up. But she's like, I hung out with the older crowd at the beginning because I couldn't keep up. with anyone else. And then she met more people because she finally got faster. And she was like, we were in and out of hiking with certain people along the AT. But it sounds like a really, really cool journey. Obviously, you've checked a lot of boxes, I'm sure, in your desire for, you know, we say there's

a list. We have a list, our bucket list of outdoor places we want to see or things we want to do. Cassie's list is about a mile long. What is on yours? What is next? Do you have anything? in the works or somewhere you really want to see or an excursion you really want to tackle. Yeah, I really want to see Al Royale National Park. It's one of the least visited national parks. It's an island. And I have written about that park in my book, Pond and Hikes. And so I really want to go there and hike and camp.

So that's one that comes to mine first. I did hike the Milford track in New Zealand. It's awesome. I would love to return to New Zealand and do some more tramping, they call it there. Tramping? I didn't know that. Did you? Cassie? No. Yeah. Yeah. And the Australians, because there was Australians I was hiking with, and they call it bushwalks. Bushwalks. Oh, you like to do bushwalks. You know, we call it through hiking, but they, you know, or backpacking, but they say New Zealanders, say tramping and the Australians say bushwalks.

Bushwalks is really funny. I get the, I get the, uh, the Zeeland version, but bushwalks is really funny. Yeah. Yeah. I. O. Royale, we did. Cassie covered aisle royale, I don't know, six months ago, eight months ago. Yeah. And we had a lot of people who are like, that's our park, you know, or that's my park because I live up there. And like you said, it's one of the least visited, but man, does it seem beautiful? And I am particularly interested in the wolf and moose study. that they do on that island. So I would love to go for that reason, among others. Every park just has something so unique about it. And that's just the magic of the national park system, whether it's a crown jewel like the Grand Canyon or a smaller historic park. Anything run by the National Park

service, we're discovering through our time with researching all this is there's so many layers and so many things to discover and people to meet. And it's just been a wild ride. Yeah, good for you guys. I'm so glad you put this show together. Thank you. Yeah. It's been really interesting, like she said, because you can go from the national parks or the national historic sites, which we're discovering are like these amazing places that I think get overlooked so much and they carry so much history and so many cool things where I'm like, wow, I didn't know that all of these historic parks were on my list, but now I have to go to these places. So there's definitely a lot in the National Park Service that we're learning more and more about all the time. Yep. So,

as far as a wrap-up question, I have one final question for you. And that is, do you have any words of wisdom or encouragement for those who are gaining their confidence in the outdoors? Because you're obviously very experienced. And you said you feel very comfortable and very confident in your own abilities while being outside because of that experience and your confidence and your skill. But we have a lot of listeners who have emailed us personally saying, I really want to want to get into the outdoors, what is a first step? Or do you have any recommendations? And as far as just getting your feet wet with the outdoors, because it can be intimidating going to big national parks and you see all these through hikers and, you know, people scaling L cap and can be a little

intimidating. But the outdoors are for everybody. We just wanted to ask from the pro if you have any little nuggets of advice. Yeah, that's a great question. I, you know, I'm almost 58, so I can't do all that stuff I used to be able to do. And so remember, just a slow hike in an area near your home where you're birdwatching or drawing or journaling or, you know, slow down one thing and really see it and study it and look at it and take it in and smell it. And so if you have that attitude and you're a little nervous, so you could just bite off a little thing first and do an hour hike by yourself and then a two-hour hike and do trails you know near home. And you gain confidence that way, slowly, slowly. Another thing is find a more experienced person to go with and learn from them.

There's also lots of hiking groups where you can join a hiking group online through Facebook or other platforms and join up with them and do it that way. Before too long, you know, that five-mile hike is nothing. Now you're ready for a 12 mile one by yourself. So just start slow and build. And don't be ashamed about doing something slow and easy at first, because that's really where you can take in nature, this running through by everything. It's, you know, that's competitive stuff. There's a, there's a value to it. But we don't all have to be enjoying nature that way. I love that. I always joke that I'm a really slow hiker. And it's because I like to look at everything on the trail. I'm like, I love this plant. What's over here? And then I get to the top and a lot of people that I hike with are like,

okay, we made it to the top. Let's go back down. I'm like, no, I'll hang out. Like I could hang out up here for two hours. So I love that you said that because I personally am a, I think a very slow hiker. And I think that that's great. Just dip your toes and don't go past your own limits and don't push yourself in ways that is dangerous for yourself. Knowing your physical and mental limits for me, I mean, Angels Land. I did everything but the chain section. I couldn't do it. I just mentally so nervous. And I am very confident in my abilities, but just the psychological, you know, falling type of thing. I was just way too nervous.

My fear would have clouded my decisions and my ability, I think, if I was to hike out on the chain section. So I just called it a day and waited while my other friend completed it. And I was very happy with that. So just knowing your limits, I think, is a, great sentiment as well. You just did one of the tactics that we talked about where you had a cautious angel on your shoulder. So you don't have to do that. And that kept you safe. It did. You came home. You're here to talk about it. So you're safe. That's right. Listen to your instincts.

You're doing it. Again, I'm good. Check. Angels landing. Half complete. Check. I'm good. I really enjoyed talking to you girls. And yeah, get out there and hike. Ladies. Let's do it. Yes. Yes, thank you so much for talking to us today. This is really fun and very informative too. So thank you very much. And refreshing and I feel very confident now. I'm the scaredy cat. Cassie is the brave one and I'm more of the nervous Nellie. So after speaking with you and just having a little bit of a confidence boost and a grounding moment, it's nice to have that every once in a while. So thank you very much for coming on with us and sharing your expertise with us and everybody. everybody else. And I know that most of our audience, based on our messages, has sent us your book and have read your book, Ranger Confidential. But if anybody hasn't, please go read it because it definitely is a great look into the national park system and the people who save our lives and help us find the best trails and keep us safe. So thank you, Andrea. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you, everyone for joining us for that interview. We really enjoy talking to Andrea and speaking with her about her experiences and her advice. It was such a fun episode to do and we love doing these people of the park episodes and we're excited because we're doing another episode that we love to do and that's another trail tales. It's coming out on Thursday. We'll see you one more time this week. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye. Bye.

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