National Park After Dark - People of the Parks: Dr. Rae Wynn Grant

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Today we sit down with National Geographic Explorer and Wildlife Ecologist, Dr. Rae Wynn Grant. She has spent her career exploring some of the wildest places on the planet, conducting research on animals like lions, tigers, bears and lemurs.  In this episode Dr. Rae Wynn Grant inspires us and educates us on how we can all contribute to conservation. Don't forget to check out her podcast, Going Wild with Dr. Rae Wynn Grant where she shares stories of what working in wild places entails. For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!HelloFresh: Use our link and code NPAD65 for 65% off plus free shipping.Microdose: Use code NPAD to get free shipping and 30% off your first order.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Standing proudly at the north entrance of the world's first national park sits an arch. Rising 50 feet high and constructed with hundreds of tons of stone, this structure can be spotted from miles away. It serves as a gateway to Yellowstone National Park, but its inscription holds true to all parks for the benefit and enjoyment of the people. People. Hundreds of thousands of us pass under this

arch and drive through the gates of national parks around the globe, eagerly anticipating the natural wonders that lie beyond them. But what about the people behind the scenes? The people who dedicate their lives to study parks, natural places, and the wildlife that resides within them. In this special segment of National Park After Dark, we're speaking to an inspiring woman who has lent her skills, passion, and career to just that, protecting and studying our natural world in an effort to protect and preserve it for us all. Welcome to People of the Parks. Welcome, everybody, to People of the Parks.

I feel like it's been a little bit since we've done one of these episodes. It has, and I'm so nervously excited about it. This is a really cool one and a really exciting one because we are talking to Dr. Ray Wynne Grant, who is a wildlife ecologist and a National Geographic Explorer. Everyone scream inside a little bit for internal screaming. Internal screaming because we're all so so excited. So she has just like the most impressive resume around. And we are recording this little intro directly after our talk with her.

So we're kind of like riding the high. She's awesome. She's down to earth, inspiring, knowledgeable. So let's just give you a brief intro of her and you can meet her yourself. So Dr. Ray Wyn Grant, like Cassie said, is a National Geographic Explorer and Wildlife Ecologist with an expertise in uncovering how human activity influences carnivore behavior in ecology. Currently, she is studying the unique ecology of carnivores in coastal zones, as well as the role of protected areas and connectivity of high quality habitat for large carnivores. She has previously conducted research surrounding the ecological drivers of human carnivor conflict, with grizzlies in the Great Plains and Yellowstone. National Park and so, so much more. She spent 15 years studying the world's most threatened

mammals around the world. Her research has led her to expeditions across 15 countries and include working with lions in Kenya and Tanzania and discovering a never-before-seen population of the world's most endangered lemurs in Madagascar. She has come face-to-face with poachers. She has had near-death experiences in the wild, given CPR to hibernating black bears, has led National Geographic Expeditions in wild places like Alaska and the Great Bear Rainforest of British Columbia. And she also has her own podcast, Going Wild with Dr. Raywin Grant, which started season two on September 27th. She speaks on what it's like to be a black female scientist in America, the importance of endangered species and the extreme adventures that she has had in the wild in attempts to safeguard their futures. We are so excited to be welcoming to the podcast.

Dr. Ray Wyn Grant. We are so excited to have you on the show, Dr. Ray Wynne Grant. Thank you so much for being here. We're very excited to talk to you today. Well, thank you for having me. This is great on my end. We have a lot of questions for you. You are a very successful wildlife ecologist,

and you've done a lot of really cool stuff. So we just wanted to know. Can you tell us what inspired you to have a career in this field, and how did you get started? Well, thank you so much. much. I, like, I was thinking just the other day about the word success because someone else, like, gave me that huge compliment of being a successful ecologist. And I'm thinking to myself, like, wow, that's really interesting. It's very flattering to hear mostly because, like, the motivation

for doing this and, like, kind of the goals of being a wildlife ecologist is to make, you know, like, the environment better and healthier and cleaner and more balanced. And I'm a wildlife ecologist. So I'm looking at like saving endangered species from extinction. And like doing that is a different kind of success. Right. It's like if we can like improve the environment, then it's like, oh, I feel like I'm a successful ecologist. You know, so it's like I think for many of us who are in this field, we don't feel successful a lot of the time because of such a long term, like our goals are so long term. And there's so much to do. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just, anyway, it's just like very flattering and very kind to be referred to as successful. So if you meet any ecologist in your life, like for anyone

listening, like give them a little compliment, like tell them they're successful. You're doing a great job. We don't tell ourselves. You don't see it every day. Yeah, exactly. But anyway, to actually answer your question, I, like, grew up in big cities, in America. And so I used to watch a lot of TV. Like, I didn't grow up, like, in the outdoors or spending time in the outdoors, like, for recreation. For example, I did not spend time in national parks. like as a kid or with my family or anything like that. I don't think I had much of an awareness that they were accessible or like places that families went on trips.

And so my introduction into nature and into like careers in the environment was through TV. So I used to just watch nature shows. My parents had this emphasis that like all TV had to be educational. So I would watch nature shows and I loved them. I mean, that was my favorite kind of show. I loved it more than going to the zoo, right? Like, you can go to the zoo and, like, see a lion or a cheetah or something. And, like, that was cool.

Mm-hmm. But I would much rather watch hours and hours of a nature show on TV than go to the zoo. And so I just fell in love of that. When I was a kid, I used to say, I want to be a nature show host when I grew up. And even when I was a teenager, like, leaving high school, entering college, I was like, I would be a nature show host. Like, can I get a degree in that? And when I went to college, I was introduced to environmental science as a,

field and I kind of just kind of deduced like I guess that's the closest to like the nature show life that I can get so like I'll do that. Right like lines kind of. Yeah. Yeah. I was like I was like that means like you can study wild animals and figure out what they need and how to protect them and like get near them and have adventures. So that sounds good. And it's like I make it sound like very linear and simple and it was not like that easy. But essentially I got into the science that I from watching TV and like not seeing a clear pathway of how I can be a nature show host. And so I saw a clearer pathway of how I can be an environmental scientist. And that's how I got here. And it worked out. I was going to say it worked out. And inspiration comes in many forms. Of course, you know, you don't have to

be immersed in it physically to still have the same inspiration. And you exemplify that. Totally. And you know, you did become a nature show host. You're a National Geographic Explorer. Like, you did it. And that's just so we can confidently say that every single person listening right now is just uber jealous. And it's a dream job for a lot of people. Obviously, getting your life's work is now your dream come true and realized.

So how did you link up with National Geographic? How did you kind of make the leap from wildlife ecologist and studying environmental science to kind of going with National Geographic and bringing that onto a broader spectrum for everybody. I'm so glad you're asking because like there's some like clarity and transparency here that's important and opportunity. So National Geographic Society gives grants. You can like go to their website, apply for a grant to do a science project or, you know, a storytelling project or an education project, something about, you know, like nature and the world and stuff. And, you know, if you go through the process, the selection process, you may be awarded this grant.

And this can be at any level. Like, you could be like, you know, having never done science before, but you have a great idea. Or you could be like a very established researcher, you know, and have a need for a grant. And that's where I was. So I started working with National Geographic four years ago. So well into my career as an ecologist, and I applied for a grant and worked with their team on, you know, getting it right. And I was awarded a grant. And when you get awarded a Nat Geo grant, you get to wear the title of National Geographic Explorer.

So being awarded a National Geographic grant opened up this whole new world for me where all of a sudden I didn't just have the opportunity to like do my science project, which at the time was studying grizzly bears in Montana, which was awesome. But Nat Geo is like one of the best organizations for science communication, right? Like they have the magazine. They have the channel. They have like, you know, the Instagram. account like they're just it everyone knows them yeah everyone knows them they're like this amazing brand and they really believe in the power of media to communicate information and like if you think about like little kid ray like way back when like i was absorbing this information through the media

i was watching nature shows and that's how i was like getting inspired so when i like got a grant from national geographic i ended up being very vocal to be completely honest i was until that point I was like a more like reserved, not super outspoken, like person. And when I got with National Geographic, I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, like I, like this, I've had these magazines, you know, like since I was a kid. I never thought I would make it here. And I started saying to like anyone I met within that building, like, I want to do more. I want to be in the magazine.

I want to like be on the TV shows. I want to like show the world what it looks like to study bears and lions. Like I want to expand this. I think there's little Raywin grants like in, you know, high-rise apartments, like in these urban spaces all over the place who need to like understand that this is available to them. And they don't have to wait until they're in their 30s, you know, to like get their first grant like I did. And I was, I arrived at Natchew at the right time, you know, it hadn't always been this organization that was open, that was thoughtful that, you know, like leaned into diverse perspectives. Like that was not always a case for this organization. But when I got there, they were willing to really, like, invest in me.

And I have now, like, been in the pages of the magazine. And I've, like, been on their TV channel. And I, like, continue to, like, be supported by them, not just for science, but for science, media and communications. And the reason I kind of started the way I started when you asked this question is because, like, I'm not special in that way. Like, National Geographic is open. Any person on this planet can apply for a grant. Like as long as you're like 18 and up in age and have an idea. There are different levels of grants and there are these open doors to becoming your own kind of

NatGeo Explorer. And it might not be life changing for everybody, but it was really, really life changing for me. I love that. I'm so happy that you decided to share that with us because it is so important because I had no idea. That was a thing. And if you don't know, how are you supposed to take advantage of opportunities? like that because I think you're right, you know, because National Geographic is, we kind of put it on a pedestal. Right. Rightfully so. I mean, they're amazing. But it kind of at the same time feels maybe

out of reach and inaccessible. But by you sharing that, it's so clear that they're, you know, opening up opportunities to a lot of different people. And I think that's amazing because you're right. There are a bunch of little versions of you in different people or any of the world. Yeah. Like we kind of sometimes think that these organizations like find their people, you know, a lot of people think that, like, Natio found me. But really, I found them and, like, put myself in their face. You know, like, I submitted my application and, like, sent my emails. And when they learn more about me, they said, oh, yeah, we'd love to, like, you know, support your ideas. And so any of us can do that. You know, any of us can, like, apply and see if we get it, you know, and that's, it's, it's democratic.

It's like a democratic process and we all belong. And so I'm sure Nacho isn't the only organization like that. And so I, you know, like to anyone listening, like think about where you want to be and what you want to do and just explore a little further to see if there are opportunities. Because sometimes it's not as transparent that like you can get there maybe quicker, easier, or smoother than you thought. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pick up.

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Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. I love your perspective of being from the city too and not growing up. up with this huge environmental background or even hanging out in the outdoors that much because I think that there's this huge thing where people are like, well, I've never grown up going to national parks. I've never grown up traveling. How do I even start to be outside? As for my family, I never grew up going to national parks or doing a lot of outdoorsy things. And it kind of just made its way into my life as I got older. So I think it's really cool to see, again, how successful you've been from a

background where you didn't grow up in the outdoors or learning how to be outside and you took that over as you went into your adult life, which I think is really, really cool. Yeah. And you had an idea of what you wanted. You're like, I want to do X, Y, and Z. And you just made it happen, you know? Yeah. I, I, yes. I mean, I don't know about just made it happen. But I was like, reflecting back, you did make it happen. I wasn't able to put it down. Like, I, I guess I didn't feel super passionate about anything else. Like I felt like mildly passionate about other things. Right. Like like music was a big part of my life. I did classical music for a long time. And so I was like, I'm good at this. I enjoy it. Would this be my career? You know, like I like there were other things that I enjoyed. It's not like I

had like one singular passion and it was like wildlife stuff. It was like there were several things. But I just thought like I only have this one life, like just one. And I am not born wealthy. So apparently I have to work for money. And so like if I'm going to do that, yeah, like that's not ideal, but here we are. And so like, if I have to do that, probably for most of my life, if it has to be work, what work do I, you know, like, do I want to do? And, and I always thought it wasn't achievable, right? So it's not like I had, like, believed in myself from day one. It was like, I held these, you know, and I'm like, I know this is a podcast, but I'm using my hands. So, like, I held these, like, to, thoughts in my head at the same time. And one thought was, yeah, if I could do anything in the world,

I'd want to be a nature show host or be like a wildlife person. And then I had this other thought of, oh, yeah, right. Like you, A, don't know anyone who does that. B, you'll never meet anyone who does that to even ask them how they did it. And like, C, there's only three or four people in the world who are nature show hosts. So, like, it's obviously not a career that, like, tons of people can just do, like, it's never going to happen. So I think it's very interesting that, like, I've always been both an optimistic person and a realistic person. And so like the realistic person was like, yeah, girl, there's like, that's cute, but there's no way. You know, it's like saying like, I want to be Mariah Carey when I grow up. Right. I guess it's like, like she exists. So I guess it's kind of possible,

but like it's not realistic for you. So, you know, being introduced to like the science behind what I saw in the nature shows helped me a lot. And I think to your point, like it's not super visible as a career path, especially for urban folks who, like, don't go into the outdoors. And yet, you know, like, I'm here to say, like, don't let that stop you. These things are possible. You know, my family is not, like, I changed. I became, like, you know, from, like, just an urban only person to someone who, like, is comfortable in both urban and wild spaces. But, like, my family hasn't really changed, right? So, like, no one in my family has ever visited me in the field before. Like, I've spent the last 17, 18 years, like mostly in the wilderness. And like I've never had a family member come. I've never had one of my

partners like her husband like be with me out there. It's just me. You know, so it's not like my whole community is now like, yay, the outdoors. You know, it's really just been me. But that's been okay. That's been okay. And it's definitely kept me in both spaces. Yeah. That's awesome. Out of curiosity, when you first started, when you were like, I want to be a TV host for nature and all this. And you started telling people your dreams were people like, yeah, yeah, that's not going to happen. That's not realistic. Or were people immediately like, yeah, you can do this. You know, I'm very lucky.

No one was discouraging. That's awesome. Which I'm very, very fortunate. You know, because with like a lofty dream like that, it's, you know, of course, like someone might be discouraging about it. Not to say I haven't faced discouragement. So it's more like in the last six, seven years that I've actually been closer to like the media world that I've been hearing a whole lot of no, I'm getting a lot of rejection. You know, so one of the first times I actually like had a meeting with someone in the entertainment industry to talk about developing a nature show featuring me.

Like I walked into the meeting and the guy who's like an executive like looked at me and he was like, are you are you Dr. Win Grant? like, yes, this is me. And he was like, oh, sorry, I thought you were going to be a white guy. And I was like, well, and I was like, that happens to me all the time. People think I'm going to be a white guy. Like, my name is Ray. Like, I am a PhD that studies bears. If they don't see my face, they think they just have this idea in their head, which is like awful, but it's something I'm used to. And he talked to me for a few minutes, but he said, honey, it's never going to happen. You're never going to have a nature show. You're not a white guy. You don't have a beard. You're not this like rugged version of what people expect when they think of a nature show host. So like, I'm sorry, but this is how it is. That is crazy. I think it's even better that you're not like that because we've all seen that show of the white guy with a beard, lumberjack guy out in the wilderness. We've all seen that. And you're breaking these norms. And it's very inspiring for women and everyone. to see not just that. For everyone, right?

It was very interesting to me because I remember looking at it. I was like, dude, that's why I'm here. That's the catch. Yeah, that's the whole thing. That's what makes me interesting. That's like that's the money is. We're like disrupting what people would expect with this new thing and I'm talented and I'm skilled and I'm always.

So anyway, again, to answer your question, like I didn't get discouraged like when I was like hatching these ideas. It was more like when I was like, like properly ready and properly trained and like in the right places at the right time with the right people like I got discouraged at the highest levels and that's something that I didn't necessarily anticipate you know and that's not like I don't want anyone else to feel like oh now they can't make it but it more suggests like the power dynamics exist at the top and the bottom you know like they're kind of all over there's these glass ceilings still that we have to break and one of the first

things you said when you introduced me was like oh you're a successful ecology And like there's so much that I have control over that I've really like worked so, so, so hard. But there are gatekeepers still in my own career that are keeping me from doing what I want to do, you know, and inspire the way that I want to inspire. And so that's something where like we as like a community of younger, passionate, you know, justice seeking folks really need to band together, you know, to like make these changes. not just for me, for everyone who wants an opportunity that's being kept from them. Yeah. Well, and going back to something you kind of mentioned when you're talking with your hands about, you know, the passion, you have this one life and then the kind of realist side.

But it's very clear that, you know, you said, I have other interests and other things that could have maybe satisfied work and things. But we've discussed this before in other circumstances. But we always say, what lights your soul on fire? whatever that is, do that. And it's very clear that you've done that and you continue to do so. And it's kind of just forging this path. And of course, you've run into, you know, different speed bumps and things that you have to overcome. But it's all part of the journey, right? And just that's part of the struggle that you're facing and we're discussing now is, again, inspiring more people to be like,

hey, if I run into this, I'm not alone. Other people have done it. And don't take it personally. Like, that's another thing. Like I had to, like it maybe took me a couple years to recover from that to realize like, oh, this isn't personal, right? It's not like an anti-ray sentiment. It's like this big block that like the entertainment industry had at the time, you know, and that's how it's going to be for all of us. Like I love your point. When it comes to like professional paths, even when you are super passionate, like there can be these barriers. And, you know, it's important to not take it personally and be able to pivot, be able to think creatively, be able to regroup, be able to like really check in with yourself and decide like what you have the energy for, right? Because

if you have the energy to like knock down those walls and like break through like awesome. But like, you know, also if you don't have that energy, like protect yourself. Do what's best for you in that moment. You know, we don't always have to be fighting for something. You know, like you really, I guess if I learned anything on my career journey, especially in the last maybe. five or so years, it's that like inner peace matters more than anything. And inner peace might look different, like, at every challenging moment. And so just like having a strong sense of self and understanding like where your energy lies and how it's balanced is so important. And especially to people in a field like mine where it's like, we're trying to like save the planet, like make it

healthier. Right. Like you can't do that if you're burnt out. You can't do that if you're very, very sad. You know, you can't do that if you're distracted or hold stretched too thin. You know, so there's so much about like self-care that plays into like being a good wildlife ecologist and they don't teach you that in school. You know, it's something that you have to like kind of learn along that journey. Well, it comes back to everything. It's like when you're on the airplane, you have to put your own air mask on first before you can help anyone else. So it all centers back to taking care of yourself, self-care, being mentally healthy, so you can put your all and your best into what you're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Kind of circling back to where we were

talking about earlier, going into your work a little bit, you have dedicated a large amount of your career to working to large carnivores and investigating how humans can influence their behavior. Can you tell us what type of carnivores you've studied and why it's so important to understand how humans affect them? Yeah. So I, gosh, I got my start studying African lions. And so there were several years I was living and working in countries in East Africa, Kenya and Tanzania, studying lion populations and how they moved and behaved on landscapes that they shared with people. And then got about 12 years ago, I started working on bears in North America. And that has, like, taken off. Like, I'm very well known for working on bears in North America. And today, I have a research project

that centers mountain lions on the central coast of California. So those are like my main species that I've really done a lot of research on. And it's super, super relevant, right? Because something that is true across the whole world that not a lot of people outside of science know is that the majority of large carnivores. So like bears, lions, wolves, etc., live outside of protected areas. So like, if you think of national parks, you can go to national park, you can see your wolf, your bear, your mountain lion, whatever.

but like most of them are not in the park. Most of them are outside of national parks, which means they're just like around, right? And sharing landscapes with people. Like in national parks, they're also sharing land with people because you can do tourism there, but it's different because there's all these like limitations and stuff

and places where some tourists can't go. But since like most of these wild animals that we're trying to protect and save can be anywhere, you know, like they don't like look at a map and decide like, oh, oh, just stepped out of the park boundaries. like better go back? Of course. You know, so, so that science work is really important to understand, like, well, where do they like to be and which pathways do they take and how do different types of human activity influence them? And understanding that in different places and different spaces over

different time periods can help us design the right conservation, like programs to protect them. And I just like, this is like the nerd in me. Like I find that so fascinating, like patterns of, you know, movement and behavior like I geek out on that but I'll give an example like one example comes from like studying black bears in Nevada for several years and this is like a rural part of Nevada like not very you know densely populated with people and I found that like bears would change their behavior from even the slightest bit of human activity so like take a dirt trail right like a trail through a little hill like if one person why their dog on that trail one time, a bear might avoid that area for weeks, right? And that area

might be like full of good food for them, you know, like full of really great resources, like a place of where they would want to be typically. But just one dog walk might throw them off. And that makes things really complicated because people like me are also saying to society like, go outside, get fresh air, go on heights, experience nature, you know, like that is true. And what's also true is that like it can negatively impact the wildlife that we want to protect. So really trying to figure out like the dynamics of these like wild animals, which are unpredictable and then the dynamics of people, which are a little bit more predictable, like how can we live in harmony together and coexist? Like that's the science. And it's ongoing. You know, it's like a constant study to try to

figure it out. Yeah. It's ever changing. And I think that's so interesting that you said that because I think we all kind of envision altering behavior by encroaching on habitat. building a condominium or bulldozing, you know, some of their habitats. Like, okay, well, they're going to obviously move. It's altered. Things are different. But I don't think I personally have ever even thought of having lasting impact and obviously implications down the line of just movement and, you know, just passing by and kind of me and then the next person, the next person and just how that kind of has a chain reaction and what that means down the line. It's not just bulldozing a den area. Right. It's not just like destroying habitat. It's like how we use it even when we're being

responsible. Because like, again, it's a responsible choice to like take a hike with your dog. That's not irresponsible. So like kind of trying to accept that and accept that like it's still going to impact these animals that we love so much negatively. You know, like so it's it's interesting. It's really, really interesting. And then kind of the reverse of what you were saying, Danielle, like the reverses, sometimes we see animals like a bear or coyote or something in our habitats, just passing through. And the way humans react to an animal passing through impacts them. Right. Like, so again, like, part of my work is sometimes like responding to like people's phone calls. Like, I saw a bear. And I'm like, okay, what was the bear doing? Was the bear like breaking into your trash can? Was the bear like trying to tear off your car door?

you know, like, and they're like, it was walking through my backyard and climbed a tree, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, that, like, that's okay. You know, like, that's what bears do and that happened. And it's probably going from one place to another place and your little town is in the way. But now that you've called and now that you've, like, thrown stuff at it and, like banged pots and pans and stuff like, this bears life has been impacted by humans. and maybe this was the safest path it could take to get from point A to point B. You know, it didn't have to cross a highway. It didn't have to like, you know, put itself in danger. But it may not take this path ever again because it encountered this stressful situation with a person, even though it wasn't doing anything wrong.

Right. So it's like, again, it's very interesting. I geek out over it, but it's a very interesting equation of like, what does coexistence look like? Like a lot of people want to know that bears are doing great. and that they're okay and that they're thriving as long as they're not in my backyard, you know? And it's kind of like, that's like a weird catch as it. Or it's like you can't necessarily have it both ways, you know, like if you care about them and you

want them to be abundant and like, you know, thriving, they might have to pass through your yards sometimes, which might make you feel uncomfortable, but like it's okay, you know. Right. Right. And then kind of pivoting because I, I'm the same way, I geek out over this. Like I could just have this discussion and go down. rabbit hole, but there is something we are dying to talk to you about, and that is your work in Madagascar and kind of just changing the kind of directing the conversation a little bit into,

we know that you've done some work with lemurs in Madagascar and kind of locating them and what that means for protection of different wild spaces. So finding and documenting and studying a species, what does that mean for the land that they live on? You know, we know you've done a lot of work in that regard. And we're going to Madagascar next year. Are you? End of next year. Next October.

Oh, my God. So we're very interested in your work there. And obviously, they're not large carnivores. But of course, they have, you know, a big, say, little species, you know, not big keystone species, have big implication and impacts on wild places. Can you talk to us about that a little bit? Oh, my gosh, yes. So let me just say I never in my life thought I would spend time in Madagascar for research, right?

Like that I was like knee deep in my bear stuff and I got this amazing invitation to join a big team of researchers to travel over to Madagascar because there was a rainforest that had just been brought to scientists' attention. I don't want to use the word discovered, right? Because it's like a loaded term. but like there was a young Malagasy woman who kind of noticed this rainforest and noticed that scientists, you know, of any kind were not doing research there. And for Madagascar, that's strange, right? Like, Madagascar is such a biodiverse, amazing place that like there's a lot of conservation work being done in like every rainforest and not this one. And so she brought it to the attention of some scientists who were like didn't even know that it existed. And a big team of researchers from all of the, the world led by, again, Malagasy scientists got brought in to do a big biodiversity survey to try to figure out what's in there. I was brought in to find ringtailed lemurs. We didn't know if they were there. It wasn't the type of place that ringtail lemurs typically live, but some folks from the community had said, yeah, they're there. And it just didn't add up. Like usually ringtailed lemurs are in

like drier forests at lower elevations. You know, at the time that I went, which was 2016, there was like, known to be less than 2,000 ringtail lemurs in the wild, you know? And also like a very, like a critically endangered species. So I was brought in to see if we could find and like maybe even capture and track some ringtail lemurs. And it was the most intense experience I have ever had. That's saying something. Yeah.

I tell stories all the time of like intense stuff. This was beyond what I could have prepared for. I had done work in Africa for years. I had lived in the bush, you know, and this was different. And in ways that, you know, were exciting, you know, it was fun a lot of the time. But it was also like five weeks living in a rainforest in Madagascar was like super intense. And then it ended in some really good news. So the good news is that we found a population, a breeding population of ringtailed lemurs in a habitat that they had never been found in before.

you know, a high elevation, like tropical rainforest. They had little babies, which meant they were reproducing, which meant there was, like, we could add, like, a significant number of ringgo lemurs in the wild to, like, the current population count. And, you know, I had been, like, darting, like, shooting bears of tranquilizer guns and, like, darting them and getting my hands on them for little checkups and to, like, collect bits of DNA for years. and although bears and lemurs are very different, I was with my little team able to successfully like dart a ringtail lemur, you know, give it a checkup for the few minutes that it was sedated,

get a hair sample to get some DNA, put a little collar on it so we could identify it in the future and release her back into her group. And that is the beginning of this wonderful, wonderful project to try to keep track of these animals and understand their ecology in the space. and how that might teach us some information about saving them. What an exciting project to be a part of, especially because it's the beginning of this project, too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

It was a big gift. It was a really big gift. And a lot of my storytelling about my scientific adventures, like, comes back to self-confidence and kind of like an emotional journey for me. And really that experience changed how I thought of myself. Like I had really thought I was like pigeonholed into these areas of expertise and I didn't necessarily belong in the entire wildlife world. But this helped me realize that I can always learn. I can always be a student, you know, and like keep learning new skills and keep

giving my energy towards new things and keep expanding. But like again, with that like learner's mindset, like so I learned so much from the Malagasy team that I was working with. Like I was technically the lead. And yet in real life, like I did not at all feel like I was the lead of anything. You know, like they were teaching me about lemurs. And I was teaching them about like how, what dose of sedative to give the lemur, you know? So it was like it was very, very educational for me. It was a real pivot in my mind set. And it really like freed up my mind to like see myself as like relevant and useful in so many different spaces.

Also, Madagascar is gorgeous. It is a majestic place. Y'all will love it. I'm so excited. to go there. So exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely like a complicated space, I think, especially for conservation. So I will offer that a lot of the conservation work that's done in Madagascar is done by non-Malegasi people. And the leadership is not local leadership. And so I would like to see a lot of that change because I would like to see Malagasy people like, you know, in charge of their own

natural resources in a bigger way. And you'll probably notice that. I think you can't. not notice it when you go. Interesting. Yeah. And just a question about the rainforest that you are working within. Do you know what its status is now? Because you said it was kind of other than outside of some local knowledge, it wasn't really known on a wider scale. So now that, obviously, I'm sure it's very known because of not only your work, but obviously, you know, throughout the years, what's the status of that location now? Is it protected or? In process. So it is now like on the national stage, like, you know, national Malagasy leadership knows about it. It has tons of conservation interest. It's a bureaucratic and long process to create a protected area.

So it has some status. And I know that scientists are like have taken over from me and are still working there to learn more about the biodiversity and in particular the ringtailed lemurs. So I have high hopes that it'll get protected, you know, like in the near future. I think that we are going to have a lot to celebrate pretty soon. Oh, that's so exciting because unfortunately, one of the first things I think of when you hear of a new rainforest being discovered is logging. These big companies want to come in. So hearing that, especially because you found an endangered species living there, that you can put some type of protective status on that area and keep it the way that it is is very, very exciting. And that's like kind of one of the things I mean about how I don't think there is enough like

Malagasy leadership when it comes to conservation. in Madagascar because the logging companies are not local, right? They're not Madagascar logging companies. They're from Western countries. And so like those Western countries and those logging companies have a lot of power and a lot of money and can say like, yeah, we're going to come in and do this. But I think if you were to ask Malagasy folks, do you want a rainforest or not? You know, they would say like, yeah, we want this rainforest. So again, like just globally when it comes to conservation, and empowerment of local people, you know, living with the resources or with the protected area is usually results in like more protection for it.

Yeah, that's such a good point. We recently did an interview talking about ecotourism. And it reminds me of that a bit because we see a lot of tourism in other countries that other people are benefiting from. And it sounds like with logging companies that are happening in Madagascar, there are companies from other places. It's not benefiting anyone in Madagascar. It's not building up their communities. Not that I think that we should be logging rainforest anyway, but just it doesn't seem like it's being beneficial.

It's an export. It's an export. Like the country of Madagascar exports them. Like most of their GDP is based on exportation of resources to countries like ours. And so like that then destroys their natural resources. And then we still have countries like ours that are like, hey, Madagascar, you should stop destroying your natural resources because, like, biodiversity is important. But it's still our country that is, like, facilitating it and making it happen.

So it's just like weird, you know, it's this weird like psychology that a lot of these companies are putting forth that like, yeah, they're doing it wrong. Look at them destroying their rainforest when it's, it's us. Yeah, it's a lot of pointing fingers and shifting blame and focus. And it's complicated, of course. But yeah. So this is going to be a loaded question. Okay, I'm ready. But if you have, because you're just a plethora of knowledge and experience. And of course, we've talked a lot about inspiring others, the next generation, et cetera. Do you have any advice for anyone who is looking to get into work in conservation or wanting to be a naturalist or dip their toe in environmental science in conservation, do you have any words of wisdom? Oh my gosh, do I. I do. I do. And I'll offer two things. I'll offer two things.

Okay. The first is, I really believe you should lean into your passion more than your performance. And I mean that in like the academic sense, right? So for example, when I was in high school, I got bad grades in my math and science classes. Like, and I'm not like being modest. Like my grades were not good. You know, my grades were like good and like, You know, like my humanities classes, like, you know, like I said, like I did a lot of music. Like my grades were good in some areas, but like my worst grades were in math and science. And there wasn't a lot of evidence that I would become a scientist who uses high level of math every day, right? Like if you looked at my grades.

But if you asked me what I was interested in and whether I liked these classes, I was interested in science. And did I like my classes? Like, I liked them. I did not like getting bad grades. So like that became common. complicated in my mind. I was like, how can I like something when it's painful when I get my right? What's happening? But that is something that I don't necessarily have the power to change and I'm

not telling any young person out there like, don't study or it's okay to get bad grades. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying like, don't measure your worth in a field by like your test scores. You know, like I think the world has been able to see more clearly lately that that is not a good indicator of who is going to be very, very useful in this field. And we need so many different kinds of people in conservation, right? Like conservation is working, but it's working a little slow. And we need it to work more rapidly if we want to keep these animals around in the future, which means we need more people with more ideas who come from diverse backgrounds with different perspectives and different ways of thinking and different life experiences. And that could be anyone listening or anyone

one who's listening's kid sister or friend or cousin or, you know, whatever. And so that's what I want to say is try to keep your mind open that like your test scores, especially, you know, in like K through 12. They determine a lot about your future, but not necessarily where your passion lies or where you should end up. And if I had, if I had listened to that, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be doing this work. Yeah, I love that because I personally am a really bad tester. You put a test in front of me and all knowledge is gone. And I don't like how tests they're formatted to trick you. They add things that are similar to the possible answer and they just word things weird.

So I love that you said that because I also did not do great in certain areas of school where now I use those areas a lot more in my life than I ever would have. So I love that you didn't do good in science or math, but you have made a career out of using both of those things. So I think that that's really. Yeah, just don't shut the door. on yourself, give yourself a chance, you know? And also kind of try to remember that at some point, the testing will go away. Like, that's something that's the beauty of it. Yeah, like, that's something that's, like, great about, like, having a job is that, like, you're being evaluated still, but you're not, like, sitting down to, like, take a test or study or, like, you don't have a GPA. And that can, at least for me,

like, everyone's different, but at least for me, that allowed me to become excellent, you know? And so, like my feedback in school was obviously like, oh, she needs to work harder, study more. She's not doing so great. But my feedback as like a practitioner, like someone like coming up with ideas, like doing the work, like making an effort in the field was like that feedback was like, she'll be great at this. And I think anyone can see that in any kind of way. And then the other thing I would say, my other piece of advice is to really think about the skills you may already have and understand that they are useful in conservation. Maybe not everyone wants to like camp in a rainforest for five weeks and look for you know, primates. Sure. But like conservation needs scientists and needs mathematicians. It needs

educators. It needs writers. It needs podcasters. It needs artists. It needs, you know, like web designers. It needs all kinds of people. Like whatever your skill set may be, you can have a career in wildlife conservation. You can play a role in it. Like you can be a part of this, you know, fundraisers. Like there's so much that is more than being the person collecting data on the animals in the field. And if you're interested in that, like awesome because we need more of those people too. But just any kind of skill set is super, super useful for this mission and you can get paid to do it. That's so important because again, I feel like we all just have this visual of what a wildlife scientist or ecologist looks like and what particular skills they have.

and what that job description is. But it's just so much broader. And like you just painted the picture, I mean, whatever you're good at already, lend that skill and see what happens. You know, there's, like you said, there's just so much opportunity and we can't do it all. Not, you know, like a scientist collecting data

and camping in the rainforest for five weeks, collecting information on primates is not going to be able to offer what a web designer can do to promote their work and to bring it to a larger group of people. So it's just a collective effort. It's just a collective effort. I mean, like, even, you know, I was saying this to someone recently who is like, I'm interested in like film and media.

And I was like, good. I was like, do you know, like, how useful script writers are? You know, if you put a scientist on camera to talk about like wildlife stuff, they're going to say like jargon, jargon, jargon, big words, big words, like, boring, boring. But if you have a script writer who can like write a nice little script, put that on a teleprompter in front of a scientist, like all of a sudden that person is communicating very clearly in an interesting way and getting the message across that could raise awareness for

this species that needs protection. You know, it's like we're all working towards the same goal, but sometimes we just need like vastly different skill sets to like get us there and get us on the same page. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, we could talk your ear off about all your different experience. I just like, I already have in my mind, I'm like, okay, lions, mountain lions, bears. All the things. And obviously we only have so much time, but there's really good news for everyone. And you share your own experiences and go way more in depth with things on your own podcast going wild. So where can people find that? And can you tell us a little bit more about it? Just like what inspired you to put it out there for everybody? Yes. You know, I love being on awesome podcast because I can talk about my

awesome podcast. And yes, it's called Going Wild with Raywin Grant. It is from PBS Nature, which again is like a very big full circle moment for me because watching PBS Nature as a kid was what inspired me to do my job. And now I'm talking about my job on PBS Nature. So it's like, it's very much. Yeah, it's very full circle. But it's storytelling. So I tell true stories from my crazy life in the wilderness. and, you know, season two has just come out. It came out in September. So we're already into season two. Season one will blow your mind.

Like, I mean, I don't want, like, it's very suspenseful. Every story is very, very suspenseful. So I don't want to give anything away. But I will say that it's about, my podcast is about the human drama that comes along with my adventures in the wilderness, saving wild animals. So we have, you know, episodes about Jaguars in Panama, Nemers in Madagascar, lions in Tanzania, you know, bears in Nevada. Like, we have stories about hyenas in Kenya.

Like, I mean, the list goes on. And as we talk about, like, the crazy adventure with that wild animal, we also talk about some, like, unbelievable drama with people. And it makes for this wonderful marriage of storytelling. And it's also good for kids of all ages. So, like, I have a lot of families that listen to the podcast that say that, like, it really engages their kids. You know, we don't use too much profanity, but, you know, every so often, it's a little

excitement, you know. Right. What I love about the podcast is that PBS Nature really allowed me to bring, like, an intersectional approach to this, right? So you're not just getting Ray the ecologist. You're getting Ray the, like, wildlife ecologist, the urban city girl, the black woman, the millennial, the mom, the like, you know, I don't know, high profile date or like there's like a lot of stuff. And yeah, and it's it's very transparent. It's very, very personal. So you learn stuff about me

that I think most people would not share about themselves. And it's also a lot of fun. So highly recommend it. Thank you for letting me, you know, kind of champion my podcast on here. Of course. I mean, we've both listened. of course, can't get enough. And while you say it's personal, I would agree. But it's also, it's transparent and relatable in a way that sometimes it's hard to relate to someone of, to be honest, your status, your accomplishment, your, you know, it's hard to see yourself in people sometimes when they've kind of garnered this and this amazing life. And through your storytelling, And it's like things that, you know, I will probably never do.

But it's, it puts us on, you know, it's like we're all in this together. Yeah. This is something that's attainable. I've done it. You can do it. Look at this amazing life and follow along with these incredible stories. It makes you passionate about whatever you're doing, whether it's Tanzania, Madagascar, central California, like, wherever it is.

It's, it's inspiring and it's always different and it's always a wild ride. It keeps you on the edge of your seat, too. Doesn't it? Yes. Yeah. Well, I have to like, I have to shout out my team because like I did come with these stories. These are like as mind-blowing as they are.

They're true stories from my life. But the team that I have been with like the experts, you know, in storytelling have really helped me craft it the right way and the delivery is impeccable and the sound design is amazing and the editing is phenomenal. So the whole team effort has made it beautiful. And we have been like chart topping and, you know, nominated for awards and we're just really, really proud of this. And again, like, there's a lot of social commentary that is included in the podcast. And I really am so appreciative to PBS Nature for

letting us go there. You know, so like it's, it's, you know, there's some radical statements like it made in this podcast. And I did not necessarily expect PBS would be on board for that. And they are. So it's, I'm really proud of that too. Pleasantly surprised. And we know that, you know, our audience is probably going to be like, all right, wrap this up so we can go listen to. Speaking of, where can everyone listen to your podcast? Oh, yeah, anywhere you get podcasts. So like any of the platforms, I have a podcast, we're on absolutely all of them, going wild with Ray Wyn Grant.

Awesome. Well, thank you so very much for taking the time out of your crazy life to talk to us and give us some insight into your life. And we'll surely be following your adventures wherever they lead you next. Thank you, ladies. This has been awesome. I appreciate it. Cheers to Madagascar too.

Thank you. We're more inspired and excited now more than ever after talking to you and all your adventures. So thank you so much for sharing them with us. Thanks. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Raywin Grant. That was amazing. We learned so much and we're feeling very inspired now. So everyone go listen to her podcast going wild with Dr. Raywin Grant.

And in the meantime, we'll see you all next week. So enjoy the view, but watch you're back. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale you'd like to share, send us an email at NPAD Stories at gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast.

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