National Park After Dark - People of the Parks: Kathryn Miles

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

In May of 1996, Lollie Winans and Julie Williams visited Shenandoah National Park on a backpacking trip. Several days into their trip they went missing and eventually park rangers found that they had been brutally murdered. To this day the case has still not been solved and investigations have slowed down, until now. In this episode we speak to investigative journalist Kathryn Miles who spent that last several years investigating this case discovering police cover ups, negligence in their investigations, lost records, and evidence that was never properly investigated. Today, she tells us about the evidence she has found, the likelihood of this cold case being solved, and how this horrific event has rocked the outdoor community. For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Firstleaf: Get your first 6 bottles for $29.95 plus free shipping with our link Away: Start your 100-day free trial by using our linkProse: 15% off your first hair care order by using our linkAirlyFoods: Use our link and code NPAD to get 25% offFor a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice.

Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Standing proudly at the north entrance of the world's first national park sits an arch. Rising 50 feet high and constructed with hundreds of tons of stone, this structure can be spotted from miles away. It serves as a gateway to Yellowstone National Park, but its inscription holds true to all parks. For the benefit and enjoyment of the people.

People. Hundreds of thousands of us pass under this arch and drive through the gates of national parks around the globe, eagerly anticipating the natural wonders that lie beyond them. Unfortunately, not everyone uses these beautiful and magical landscapes for their enjoyment and exploration. History has shown that predators sometimes lurkier, using the remote and secluded landscapes to hunt victims and commit unthinkable acts. Today, we're going to look at the people who dedicate their lives and career to discovering who these predators are and finding justice for the people that they have harmed. People of the parks are not just the people under the Stenson Hat, or even employed by the Park Service at all.

Some of these people are investigators and journalists, who are so moved by the lives of those who enjoy the parks, that they will dig down into the National Park Service investigation tactics, go through hundreds of crime scene photos, interview loved ones and investigators, and walk in the same footsteps as the victims to get it. answers. Welcome to People of the Parks. Welcome back everyone to National Park After Dark, another People of the Parks episode. So lovely to be here. This episode is a little bit special

because we are doing a People of the Parks, which we love to do because we love to interview people on the show. But it's a little extra special because we are rewinding to the very first episode that we ever covered. Yeah, it just seems like a false. off distant memory, but the story itself really left an impact on Cassie and I. And if you're new and you haven't listened to the very first episode, go. Do it, first of all. Second of all, this story Cassie picked actually because we really resonated with it. And the story is about Lolly Winnens and Julie Williams. Their story just as like a quick recap. So, if you If you don't want to pause this and go listen to our very first.

If you don't want to listen to us, like struggle through our first episode, we get it. But just as a little recap in May of 1996, two women, Lolly Winans and Julie Williams headed into Shenandoah National Park in Virginia for a hiking and backpacking trip. These women were in love and they were celebrating, moving in together and starting a new job in Burlington, Vermont. Several days into their trip, the two women went missing, and park rangers found their bodies in a remote campsite off of a less traffic trail. Throughout the investigation, a couple suspects caught the eye of the police, but the main suspect in this case was a man by the name of David Daryl Rice, who was arrested for attempting to kidnap a woman when he ran her off. She was a cyclist. He ran her off the road. Scream profanities at her.

It was a big deal. and authorities spent years pursuing a case against him for Julian Lolley murders, but to this day, Julian Lolley's case has remained unsolved. Like we said, this case was our very first episode we ever did, and today is a very special episode because we are speaking with Catherine Miles, a woman who has spent years and years investigating this case and has gained invaluable insight and information that you could never ever, fit into just a singular news article or a single podcast episode.

She has information about the case that has never been shared publicly before. Yes, she has done such a deep dive into this case. And even though we covered this episode and researched it, she has talked to people that has never reached into news articles before. She's found evidence that has never gone into news articles before. It's a very, very interesting book. It just came out. She just wrote the book,

Trailed One Woman's Quest to to Solve the Shannandoah murders. We're very excited to talk to her. Catherine Miles is an award-winning investigative journalist and science writer who currently is living in Portland, Maine. Her essays and articles have appeared in publications such as Audubon, Best American Essays,

the Boston Globe, Down East, The New York Times, Outside, Times, and more. She received her education at St. Louis University, where she attained her Bachelor of Arts degree in philosophy, and then she went to further her education at the University of Delaware, where she received her master's and doctorate in English. She was a professor of environmental studies in writing at Unity College for four years and taught in several graduate schools, including Green Mountain College.

She is the author of five books, including the one that we will be focusing on today, which is her newest book, trailed one woman's quest to solve the Shannon Doa murder. Catherine Miles spent years personally investigating the murders of Lolly Winnens and Julie Williams. She has visited Shenandoah National Park to the same location of their murders. She spoke to National Park Service law enforcement and investigators. She's spoken to witnesses and gone through countless court documents and crime scene photos in attempts to resolve this unsolved case. Along the way, she's discovered forgotten evidence, negligence in the investigation, witnesses, along with untimps.

tested evidence and DNA samples and a serial killer that was never investigated properly. Then she decided to write a book about it, bringing Lolly and Julie's murders back into the spotlight and revealing everything that she has found. So we are so excited to welcome Catherine Miles to people of the parks. Well, we are so excited to welcome you. Welcome Catherine Miles to National Park After Dark. Thank you. And I was just saying before we started taping that I've been a really big fan of your podcast for a long time.

And, you know, especially when I was working full time at Outside Magazine, you know, we would gobble up your episode. So a little bit of a fan girl here. And it's fun to finally get to talk to you to. That's so cool. We love Outside Magazine. I mean, they have the best articles. Of course.

I was going to say I've used Outside Magazine for resources before. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's really cool to hear. So we're fangirling at the same time. Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs.

You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

Obviously, we're here to talk about your newest book, Trailed, which is phenomenal, by the way. Couldn't put it down. And not only because we've covered this story before Cassie did, it's like a full circle moment right now, you know. We're going back to the very first episode. The very first episode we ever covered right now. So not only because it touches upon things that we were familiar with, but also because it is so well written and it is like you you're so invested in the story that it's just it's a phenomenal

book. So thank you so much for sharing it with us first of all. But of course, before this book, you had a very successful career as a journalist, educator and as an author. So can you tell us a little bit about how you started down that career path and how you decided to become a writer in the first place? Yeah. When I was in high school, I started doing some reporting for the regional newspaper in the area. And I actually was able to work as a part-time high school student and a part-time sort of junior journalist or junior reporter at this newspaper. And it was such a fabulous experience, you know, to be a teenager in a working newsroom and see, you know, literally how the news gets made every day. And I really fell in love with that. But, you know, college took me in a little bit of a

different direction and I ended up doing a PhD with an emphasis in environmental studies and gender studies. And then I went on to teach college full time. I was teaching environmental writing mostly as well as some gender studies classes and environmental studies classes. And while I was doing that, I started doing more kind of popular press as opposed to scholarly press type writing. It's really important to me that, you know, people feel engaged with the environment and with all of the natural resources that this country has. And I felt like some of the best ways that I could really kind of develop that commitment and that ethic of care was to shift away from scholarship and shift more towards writing for publications like outside or the New York Times or political

or places like that where I would maybe have the opportunity to really influence people and really engage folks and have them think about their relationship with the natural world. And so I think that's probably what underlies all of my work in some way or another. That's awesome. I think that that really touches a lot of our listeners because I think at the undertone of everything, we're all just really love the outdoors in nature. And we totally get how that could be something that you just gravitate towards and dedicate your career to.

I mean, we kind of tried to turn our podcast into that too. So I totally get that. And it does bring us into our next question that we had for you. is in your book, you mentioned a lot of times where you have gone hiking or you've gone camping and things like that. And can you tell us more about your own relationship with the outdoors? You love to write about it. You think it's important. What is it to you? Yeah. You know, I grew up in a family of car campers, you know, and we would always go to whatever the local state park was. You know, we'd have our whole sort of, you know, tents and tennis rackets and

bikes and fishing poles and all of that. So it was always part of my life. And then, And as I say in the book, when I was, I think it was my junior year in college, I took an environmental studies course that had a mandatory backpacking trip on it. And I was totally ill prepared. Like it was, it was in the Ozark Mountains. It was super cold. I had this thin little cotton sleeping bag and I didn't even really know what else to pack. And it was one of those external frame backpacks that kind of dig into your back. And it was just miserable, except that I also really, really fell in love with it. And as I say in the book, you know, I was a teenage sexual assault survivor, a date rape survivor. And after that happened, I really struggled with kind of how to be

in my own body, you know, and I think without even realizing what I was doing, I was just looking for a lot of excuses to not be in my body. And so I got really skinny. And I was like studying all of this like esoteric philosophy. And that backpacking trip really changed it. And all of a sudden I was like, I really want to be good at this thing and I really want to be strong and I want to be competent. And so it really shifted the whole trajectory of my life. And by the time I got to grad school, I was spending a lot of my free time on the Appalachian Trail as a section hiker, you know, doing other national parks and things like that. And so it's always really been a foundational part of my identity. And I think that's part of why learning about backcountry crime was just so shattering for me.

really because it had been the place where I had always felt the safest. Absolutely. Yeah, the outdoors are definitely a healing place and also somewhere that you learn about yourself. I think for me, it's been somewhere where I learned so much about myself. And it is a place where you can feel like strong and empowered and hearing about these crimes, it is, it's shattering and it's awful to know about it. And at the same time, it's one of those things that you can't really look away.

you want to know more about it, which obviously you know because you dedicated an entire book in years of your life to writing trailed one woman's quest to solve the Shenandoah murders. And from the very beginnings of your writings, it's very apparent that you're very connected

to Julie and Lolly. Why was there a case so important for you to investigate? Yeah, you know, it's a case that's been with me, you know, for over 20, years now. I learned about it not long after it happened. The murders we think took place on May 28th, 1996. And it was probably just, you know, really a year or two later when I first learned about it. And, you know, on one level, I saw these two women and I was just so kind of a little bit awestruck,

I think, by them because, you know, especially, you know, I was the same age as they were. We both, we all grew up in the Midwest, you know, we had fairly similar kind of backgrounds and things. And, you know, you look at pictures of Wally and Julie, and they're just so hyper, cool, and competent, you know, if you kind of think back to the 1990s when everybody sort of wore a bandana tied on their heads and, you know, we still wore leather hiking shoes and stuff. And you could tell just by looking at pictures, like, that they totally were dialed in, you know? And so that was part of it. And then I think also just thinking, like, here were these two super experienced backcountry leaders. You know, they were, they were, they were. They were. They were. were dynamite at what they did. And they knew everything about leave no trace ethics and, you know, backcountry best practices and how to find a good stealth campsite, all of the things. Like, they did everything right. And yet they were still really brutally murdered. And the idea that that could happen was just so affecting to me, you know, and to think that two women who could be such experts could still become victims, I think, was something that was really hard for me to get

my head around. It's a scariest part. It's like if this can happen to them, it could happen to anyone. Yeah. Exactly. And I think a lot of the stories that we share on the podcast have that similar undertone. It doesn't matter if it's a murder case or a freak accident or an animal attack or whatever it may be. it's that sentiment that if it could happen to this person, it could absolutely happen to me.

And it's not meant to, you know, scare anyone and frighten anyone out of anything. But it is very grounding and it is very intriguing. And I think that that whole idea is something that obviously got you super involved in their case. And that's what makes different stories like this also intriguing to others. Yeah, I think we want to know, you know, I mean, we want to know when accidents happen or when violent crime happens. I think especially if you're someone who loves the wilderness, you want to know, well, how did this happen? You know, why did it happen? Like, is it going to happen again?

You know, I think it's just the nature of our brains to really want answers and certainty and to kind of get our heads around things. And part of what's so difficult about this case is that, you know, there still isn't resolution. And so, you know, I speculate in the book what I think happened and I speculate about who I think might have done it. But we still don't know. You know, we still don't know if the killer is out there. And I think that's really hard for a lot of people too. Yeah, absolutely. And you just said something about Julie and Lolly that struck me. You said they were dynamite. And in your book, it is so clear that you really got to know Julie and Lolley intimately. through friends and families and different, you know, interviews and research on them. And that's something that just really shown through to us because, of course, you can read tons of articles about their

case and logistics about their case. But you really humanized them and made us, you know, care about them because they were real people. And they were, you just like hit the nail on the head. Like they were dynamite at everything they did. And it's so true. Like, they're, like, They totally were like the people you wanted to be and also to be friends with. And that just really, really shown through on your book that you really got to know them. And you made everyone else fall in love with them as well. Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. It was so important to me that they really stay the main characters of this story.

You know, in 2001, when I finished my grad school and I took my first college teaching job, it was at Unity College, which is where Lolly had been a student when she was murdered. And it's a tiny, crunchy little environmental study school here in Central Maine, you know, 500 undergraduates, I think, like 30 faculty members. And so smaller than a lot of high schools. And, you know, even those five years later, Lollie was just everywhere on the campus. And so long before I had ever thought about a book project, you know, I just like the spirit of Lollie was just all over that campus. And so, you know, to know her friends and her faculty members and people like that really brought her to life for me in a way that it was really important that I could then bring to life both Lolly and

Julie for readers too. Yeah. And we, I mean, we're both from New England and I actually have a previous partner that went to Unity College. So hearing you describe all of that and stuff, it really just like brought it home. I mean, I know not everyone can relate to that. But just like hearing you describe unity, especially back in the 90s, I was just like, this is so rad.

Yeah. And I live in Vermont right near where Julie lived. So it's just... It's like a full circle. It's just like we're reading it and you were describing places. And I'm like, oh, my God, I've been there. I know exactly where that is. Like that...

Yeah. So we connected to it too. And even when we first did our first episode, I think part of why we... wanted to do theirs first was they were two women in the outdoors who were people that we would have wanted to be friends with. And even after we got a lot of messages that were like, these are the type of people that we would love to know, love to be friends with, love to be our friend group. We would do the exact same trip to Shenandoah, you know, so I think it really did touch a lot of people. And unfortunately, when these horrible things do happen in the outdoors,

especially when they're hiking and camping, it can deter women especially from going out there. What did you find was the impact to the outdoor communities of women in the area and also the LGBTQ communities after their murders? Yeah, and you know, one of the other crimes that I sort of briefly touch upon in the book was a very similar crime involving a woman named Claudia Brenner

and her partner, Rebecca White. And Claudia wrote this incredible book called Eight Bullets. where she talks about the fact that they were also in a same-sex relationship and had been hiking just off the AT and had been assaulted and Rebecca was murdered. And Claudia had multiple bullets in her, including in her neck. And she managed to hike something like four miles out and barely survived, but did survive. And she wrote this really powerful book about what that was like. And so when I was first starting my project, I contacted her. And I wanted to know if I could talk to her about her experience and her book.

And one of the things that she said that really stuck with me is she said, these crimes are absolutely hate crimes in the sense that they not only do damage to the actual victims, but that they do really significant damage to the entire sort of social group that the victims subscribe to and that that damage really persists. And, you know, I've been on the book tour for about two months now. We did some pre-release events starting back in March. And one of the things that is just so sobering to me is after I give a talk, for instance, the number of people who come up to me or send me an email and they say, I remember these primes and it was the last time that I ever went backpacking or it was the last time I ever slept in a tent or I won't go back to the woods by myself or anything like that. And that I think is really where this is a hate crime. You know, whether or not these people ever knew Lolly and Julie or and Rebecca are, you know, some of the other victims who have been murdered while they've been

hiking. It really, it really has a really distinct impact on people. And, you know, especially, as you said, I think women and I think also LGBTQ plus folks, you know, and then I think there's, there are other sets of people, you know, who already felt very disenfranchised and very sort of boxed out of the wilderness because of their race and ethnicity or their sexual or in gender orientations or just because they have, you know, different body sizes and body types that they don't see reflected to them in glossy magazines or catalogs for outdoor gear. And so for these, all of these people, they feel like they're either, we're never welcome in the wilderness or they're no longer welcome or safe in the wilderness. And I really wanted to call attention to just how

pervasive a problem that is. And the fact that we still really haven't confronted it. When we talk about the national parks. We still don't talk about how exclusionary they feel for so many people. And that's a real shame because they ought to be equal access to everyone. And I feel like they're not for a variety of reasons. Yeah, that's such a good point. And I did love how you touched on that in your book, especially because like you said, we have, I mean, personally, we've had a lot of women who have messaged us and been like, how do you feel safe outdoors? How do you go on a solo hike? How do you do this? and feel okay doing it. And it is, it's almost, it's actually like very infuriating that things like this murder

happens and other attacks on women or any type of people out in the outdoors happen. And then there's so many people who are so deeply affected by it because the outdoors, I like wholeheartedly believe, are for everyone. And it is, it's such a healing place. It's such a beautiful place. There's so much to be seen and experience there that to have. it ripped from you because of something someone else did. It is just, it's a really sad reality that has happened and hopefully won't be like this forever and people will feel safer outdoors,

but it is something that definitely is impacting people every day. That's true. Yeah. While speaking of women in the outdoors, you brought up something that kind of struck us both and we quoted it because we had to bring it up to everyone right away. So in your book, you speak of early ideologies of women in the outdoors. Obviously, we all kind of can relate to what it is currently, but you brought it up, you know, brought it back a couple hundred years, specifically from a book called Sex and Education by Edward Clark, and it was published back in 1884.

And a sentence that you quoted from that book, Intrailed, was, quote, any overnight location should be such that stoves could be delivered to make women more comfortable, end quote. So what were some of the ideas inside the book and rationalizations of why women should not be in the outdoors? Like what did you come across in your research? Because today, I feel like women in general have really come leaps and bounds. And that really shows when you look at a quote like that. Absolutely. Yeah, and I love research rabbit holes. You know, I think they drive my editors crazy. Here's 30 pages on something that's only tangentially related to the actual story.

But I did really fall down the rabbit hole of researching this idea of women and outdoor recreation and women and wilderness experience is kind of going back to the founding of the country. And you're right, like especially in the 18th century, you know, the amount of just sort of like insanity, that was being generated about how women shouldn't hike and they shouldn't be subjected to the elements and they're too fragile or they're, you know, they're going to get hysteria and their uteruses are going to fall out. They need a stove. They have to cook. And they need a door to stand, right?

Bring a door so the women can stand on it to put their petticoats on and things like that. And, you know, it's just absurd. You know, I grew up in the Midwest and my, you know, my, you know, my. people are pioneer people. And I'm really confident that those pioneer women did just fine, you know? Right. And then, you know, even looking going forward when you look at even just like, I was finding stuff from like primary documents from the founding of like outward bound, for instance. And the higher ups that out were bound were trying to decide whether or not they should begin to admit women. And as I say in the book, like there was actually a letter where somebody was like, well, yeah,

but what if we attract like really butchy looking women? Like isn't that going to like destroy the the look of outward bound? And I'm like, you guys are actually putting this down on paper. Like this is insane, you know? And so it really is, you know, when we think about just a couple generations ago, like how hard it was for women to feel like they had access and to get the recognition that they deserve for what they were doing. It's amazing that what's happened just in the last, say, 40, 50 years. Yeah, because if you think about it, 1884, that's what, like, three, four people ago.

Like, if you live to a certain amount of age, it's just insane to put it in that frame. And it's just, like, reading things like that, like you said, it was a rabbit hole. And it wasn't even really 100% related to the core of the story. But it's important. And I'm so glad that you touched upon it because it's something that we still, I mean, it's a conversation that we touch on a few times. throughout the show. And all you can really do is say like, what the, why? Like, what the hell? You know? And I just love that you included that because to look back is also to see how far we've

come at times when sometimes it still feels like we have so far to go. And I really, really loved that. Well, thank you. And I wish we all lived closer. You know, the other weekend I bought a brand new lawnmower, like an electric. I have a solar powered house. And so I bought this a lot electric lawnmower. And I was putting it together and my older white male neighbor came over because he was like sure that I couldn't put my lawnmower together. And like, he's like, you need help little lady? And I'm like, really? Like, are we still here, you know, in 2022 that I can't do this. Figure it out. You know? Yeah. And it's like I was telling Cassie before we got on the call with you, I had to learn how to use my weed whacker, or me and my late partner's weed whacker.

And it's the simplest thing. I mean, I saw him do it every week. And here I am looking at it. And I'm like, I can do this. This is so simple. You know, and my neighbor's like, if you need anything, like, you need me to do the lawn. I'm like, I'll YouTube it. I'll figure it out.

Okay? I'll figure it out. I think I can do it. And I did. You know, it's like, it's great that, you know, you're asking, but it also does have that little like, like, you don't think I can do this? I got it. I got. Yeah. I totally off like a little off topic. But this past weekend for Memorial Day weekend, I went off and I have a dual sport motorcycle. And I was one of the only girls there on a motorcycle. And people were physically pointing at me and like staring like, oh my God, it's a girl. And I'm like, like, come on. You know, so it's definitely still happening. And it's just, it's, but like obviously not to the extent. And you bring them stoves. They need to be able to cook while they're outside. But, I mean, you still have to cook, but we don't need a kitchen. We don't need a full ass stove. We don't need a

full kitchen. But kind of brings us into our next question of because of all these ideologies that were happening that women shouldn't be in the outdoors, they don't belong there, they can't survive there. Do you think that these early ideas contribute to how women are perceived in the outdoors today and if that relates to the number of crimes that are against women in the outdoors? Yeah, I think there's a certain set of people. And luckily, I think it's a very tiny set, but I think there's a certain set of white men, white heterosexual men, who still think that the wilderness belongs to them and doesn't belong to black people or brown people or gay people or people who identify as female or non-binary.

And I think that that's really part of the problem, that there is this group of men who feel like it's their space. And if you're going to take it away from them, then they're going to have to do something to respond. And, you know, one of the things that was really interesting to me was that going through the court cases for some of these murders that had happened on or near the Appalachian Trail, There was a real kind of common current in the defense of these perpetrators. And they were using this sort of legal argument that said, it's like it's called the provocation argument. So that they were so provoked that the only reasonable response was murder. Right.

So particularly in the case of same sex murders, right? One in particular, this guy, Stephen Ray Carr said, well, I came upon them and they were kissing. And it was so offensive. and I was so provoked and triggered that I had to shoot them. And this is actually a legal defense. You know, it's usually used by people like, I don't know if you remember Lorraine Bobbitt who, you know, chopped off her husband's penis. Yes.

Like that was a provocation defense, right? So because she was abused, she had to do this thing. But it's used in these wilderness crimes, too. And so if the idea that two women kissing in the wilderness is so provoking that your only response is murder. And if you have a defense team that even thinks, that's a mildly plausible or viable defense. I mean, to me, that shows the problem right there, right?

Yeah, that's all. How is that not a hate crime, though? If you are seeing two women kissing and you're so upset about it, that's hate. That's hate. I think so. Can it be classified as both? Do you know? Well, one's a defense and one is, right?

Because that's what they're using as a defense is provocation. But it can also be classified. as a hate crime. I don't know. Yeah, no. I mean, if you're if you're targeting somebody because of their social identity, then then that really is kind of the definition of a hate crime. Right, right. And it's hard to, you know, like you said, it's just hard to even wrap your mind around that. Like you said, like if you stumble across two people of, you know, two women kissing and you're so enraged and triggered that you just have like, how does that how is that even a viable or plausible defense you know I just well I was going to say

something else and I totally forgot sorry I have it's because you're so outraged and I totally I am it's insane just to hear that you can actually use that as a defense is just wild to me and it's just like if if you feel that way stay inside and don't come out because the world doesn't need you we get that on a t-shirt somewhere? I would like to have it. Stay inside. The world doesn't need you. Yeah.

One of the things, so with Julian Lolly's murder, our listeners are a little bit familiar, not as familiar as if they read your book because you definitely do a huge deep dive into it. But one of the aspects of the investigation that really confused us researching it and a lot of our listeners was how the Park Service handled the investigation initially. When their deaths were first reported, they were reported as a murder suicide, and they also widely stated to the public that there was no threat to anyone and continued to allow the park to carry on its weekend activities. In your investigation, what did you find was the reason for that?

And do you think that it was a big mistake that impacted the overall investigation? It was a huge mistake. You know, I'm a big fan of the National Park Service, you know, and I don't want to throw them under the bus. But there were definite mistakes that were made that I think put tens of thousands of park goers at real risk and also really, I think, hampered attempts to close this case. And I also have questions that I never really got answered, you know, beginning with the fact that the women's tent and the crime scene was found basically after the sun had set on a sassad. Saturday night, and I still can't figure out how Rangers say they just found this hidden tent in the dark. I have some serious questions about that. And then the Rangers who first found the tent site reported back that there was a significant degree of decomposition in the women,

which if you look at the autopsy photos, there's basically no decomposition. And then, yeah, so the first argument, actually before murder, suicide was Bear attack, which is the most sort of offensively ludicrous thing I've ever heard since you have women who are bound and gagged with their hands duct taped behind their backs and their throat slit and that they're stuffed in sleeping bags. And the idea that this is possibly the work of a bear is ridiculous. The fact, the idea that this is a murder, suicide is completely ridiculous. But, you know, as I outline in the book and I provide some of the confidential memos that I found from the National Park where the senior administrators there made a very calculating. decision not to release information about this and basically to completely obfuscate if not lie, if people asked about the crime. And that went on for for about 72 hours. It wasn't until some really good reporters and journalists from Washington, D.C., started to figure out that something was going on. And one of the sort of subthreads that I have in the book is the story of these five hikers, who I call the Ann's, because three of them were named Ann.

And they were on their first backpacking trip ever in Shenandoah this week. And they were heading straight towards the crime scene when they started to get word and rumors that this murder had happened. And they started approaching rangers and park officials saying, like, we heard there was a murder. Is this true? Are we safe? And they were basically told, you know, look, everything's fine. When the park had no reason to believe whatsoever that they were fine, this was the third murder of a young woman in this very rural area. in very short time. There was no reason to suspect that it wasn't a serial killer, and there was no

reason to suspect that the serial killer wasn't still in the park. And one of the reasons I really wanted to tell the story of the ANs is that to this day, 25, 26 years later, they still feel really betrayed and really angry about the fact that the park basically hid this information from them and put them at risk. I feel like they're really kind of emblematic of what the experience of a lot of park goers were, which, you know what I mean? They deserved to know. They deserved to know that this very violent crime had occurred. And because the park wanted to kind of preserve it image, because the park worried about the public response, they deliberately hit it. And I don't think there's any excuse for that whatsoever. Yeah, that was actually a big part of when we did our research, we're like,

what about all the people in the park here? How do you know, how can you say that they're safe? And to later find out that you're there and you're not safe is very scary, especially when that's coming from law enforcement and coming from the park service, people who are supposed to be looking out for your own well-being. And the fact that their decisions are affecting people 25 years later just shows like how bad of a decision it really was. I think it's a real breach of trust. Yeah. And, you know, what I talk to a bunch of people who had been in the park that weekend.

And what they all said to me was like, look, we don't know if we would have stayed or we would have gone or what we would have done, but we deserve the right to make that choice, right? We deserved the right to be told that this very brutal murder has occurred here. And I totally agree with that. You know, I don't think the police should have given away information that would have made it hard to eventually convict someone or something like that. But as parkgoers and as taxpayers who are supporting these parks, you know,

we deserve to know, just like if there's a landslide or if there's a chance of an avalanche somewhere, We need to know that safety information. We also ought to be able to find the safety information and the recurrences of violent crimes at a park so that we can all decide if we feel safe there or not. Yeah. We also thought it was very strange because if the person who had committed these crimes was still in the park, it felt like no one was actually investigating like that either. It felt like, you know, if you're saying everything's good, everything's fine, people are coming

in, coming out of the park, you're not really questioning the people who were there or who are there still. So the person could literally be walking right by you and you would have no idea because you've deemed it safe. Yeah. And it wouldn't be until a little later that the FBI would really start to winnow in on certain suspects who had been in the park. And one of the things that I was shocked when I was looking at all these FBI record was using license plates of people who came into the park, they were able to run background checks on folks. And I have this sort of laundry list of criminals and types of criminals who were in the park that weekend, right? Registered sex offenders, escaped convicts, you know, employees with criminal records in the park.

You know, employees reporting that other employees had bloody knives under their beds. One point, the FBI really suspected three of these Rangers because they had also worked the 1986 Colonial Parkway case. that's a thread that the FBI continues to sort of investigate today is the idea that Rangers might have actually been the perpetrators and the murderers here. So, yeah, you know, this huge kind of fog of war that's happening and what they're turning up in terms of, you know, the number of kind of unsavory people in the park at any given time was really kind of alarming to me as a reader. Yeah, that makes you scary.

Like just thinking of how many people are like that in any national park. you go into. That's on any given day. Yeah. It's like what is, I mean, I guess it was, it was a holiday weekend when it happened. So maybe there's more people, there's more of a chance. But that's a lot of scary people to be congregated in one small area. Shannon Doe isn't really not that big of a place. So yeah, that's scary. Speaking of the laundry list that you have or, you know, continue to run through, I'm sure. At least in the book, there's in the environment, investigation, there was one name that came up over and over and over again, and that was David Daryl Rice. He was convicted of assaulting a woman not far from where Julie and Lolly were

murdered, and law enforcement began pursuing him as a suspect. And although there wasn't a huge amount of evidence connecting him to Julie and Lolley, they did in your book, you made it very clear that they spent a lot of time and money pursuing him and investigating him for this crime. When forensic evidence couldn't be linked to him, he was free to go, but with the option to be retried in the case. And you found a lot of conflicting evidence that made him not an ideal suspect. And can you kind of explain why and kind of go down the rice rabbit hole, if you will? So, so again, we think Lally and Julie were murdered May 28, 1996, based on what the medical examiner has said. In July of 97, as you said, Darrell

Rice was in the park. He is a person who has some real mental health challenges. He's dealt with bipolar schizophrenia for most of his life. And in the spring of 1997, his life had completely unraveled. He had gotten fired from his job, and he had been in a relationship that had ended, and, you know, he was smoking a lot of weed. And that weekend in July, he had been staying at his dad's house, which is right outside of the park. And he was a really avid cyclist, and he would spend a lot of his free time inside. the park. And he did assault a Canadian woman named Yvonne Malbasha. And it was, I'm sure, an utterly terrifying event for her. And I, in no way, you know, excuse his behavior. But the combination of the fact that he had assaulted this woman and the fact that after the Rangers apprehended him,

he asked them if they had ever found the person. He said, did you ever find the person who murdered those two women last year. And at that point, he really became the singular focus for the investigation, to the exclusion really of all other people. And, you know, one of the things that I think is really important to note is that the evidence they had against Rice was circumstantial at best. If you believe the medical examiner that Lolly and Julie were murdered on May 28th of 1996, it immediately rules out Rice because we know that he was back in Baltimore, you know, the morning of the 27th. So that's a problem. You know, there's never been any DNA evidence linking him to it. And admittedly, you know, that doesn't, you know, that doesn't prove he's innocent. But really the only evidence

they ever had against him was this very strange phone call that he made to an LGBTQ resource organization called the Spectrum Center in San Francisco. And in the fall before this trip, in the fall of 1995, Julie had belonged to a book club at her Presbyterian church. And one of the books that they had read was edited by a woman named Janie Spar. And Janie Spar also happened to be the director of this spectrum center. So that was the only possible link that the FBI, in the park service could really make. And they were speculating that Rice had somehow been at the murder scene, found Julie's journal, found that she had Janie Spar's telephone number, even though nobody could figure

out how or why she would have Janie Spar's telephone number. Meanwhile, Rice says, listen, like, I smoke a lot of weed. And I'm also a really big Grateful Dead fan. And the first six numbers of the Spectrum Center are the first six numbers of the Grateful Dead hotline. and the last four numbers were the numbers of his office where he worked. And he was like, look, I was trying to call the Grateful Dead hotline. I was super high.

I didn't know what the Spectrum Center number was. You know, that was his explanation. But it was really that that really became the lynchpin of the legal case against Rice. And that's all, you know, when I was going through these hundreds of pages of court documents, what the prosecution and the defense kept going back and forth on was that matter of the Spectrum Center. Like that's as close as they could get to, pinning this on him. You know, and as you mentioned, it was the case against him was dismissed without prejudice, which means it can come back at any time. So he lives in a state of constant double

jeopardy. And, you know, I can't say for sure whether or not he did it. I don't think he did, you know. And if that's true, I mean, his entire life has been ruined by this. And he basically has to live completely underground for his own safety at this point, you know. And I think that's a real human rights issue that we should be talking about. I mean, he did serve his time for the assault against the cyclist. He's done his duty and he's never committed any other crimes. And yet he is continually persecuted every single day. Well, even when we were doing the research for the episode, every article we read came up with Rice's name. And it had, I don't think I really even saw that much talking about like his mental health at all. And it was all. And it was

all just David Daryl Rice attacked a woman in Shenandoah. He is the number one suspect. You know, it really didn't dive into all of the information that you found and you wrote about in your book. So reading it was very interesting because it was a whole different aspect of David Darrell Rice that I had never heard before just based on a lot of news articles that I had read. So it was really interesting, all the stuff that you found. And during your investigation, you discover evidence of police cover-ups, negligence in their investigation, you talk to witnesses. And in your book, you really dive deep into all of this information that you found. Why has it been so important for you to highlight the flaws that happened in this case? Yeah, you know, I talk a lot about this concept

called confirmation bias, which we all, as humans, suffer from, right? Where as soon as we believe that something is true, we funnel all information through that belief system, right? And it happens a lot in law enforcement. And I didn't realize just how often it happens until I started doing this research. And even today, like over the weekend, I got an email from yet another person who said, look, I was in Shenandoah in late May of 1996. You know, I think I saw the women. I also think I saw this other suspect. I tried to contact the FBI and tell them about it. They never got back to me. They never responded to me. And the number of people who have told me that is really, I think, shocking and shilling. And having gone through all of this legal information, and then I partnered with the

Innocence Project, which had thousands of pages of evidence that had never really seen the light of day before, and having the chance to go through all of that and to see the mistakes that were made and the conclusions that were drawn for really no reason at all. I think, again, as sort of like a human rights issue, as like a sort of like justice issue, I think we really need to be demanding more answers and more accountability for the way that law enforcement investigates crimes and for the way that we deal with violent crimes in this country. There are 250,000 cold murder cases in this country. And there are thousands and thousands of rape kits that have never been tested. And this is justice that has not been served for all of these victims and their survivors.

And I put Lolly and Julie, you know, in that camp as well. And so understanding that and understanding, I think just how far we really have to go before justice is served, especially for these wilderness crimes, which are so difficult to investigate. It's something that I think as Americans we should all really be demanding. That actually brings us into what our next question for you is going to be, is we were going to, and you mentioned it a little bit already, was about the unsolved murder statistics in this country and how many cold cases are there and what are the chances of these cold cases ever being solved? Yeah, I guess it depends on who you ask. One of the things that I found really chilling when I was doing research for this book is the underrepresentation and the

underreporting of violent crimes in places like national parks and national forests, BLM lands, places like that. And also the fact that they have the lowest clearance rate of all violent crimes in this country. So not only do we have to be asking why so many cases don't get solved in this country, but I think we need to really pay attention to the fact that wilderness cases get solved at a tiny fraction, you know, of the percentage of these other cases. Meanwhile, Rangers are murdered and killed in the line of duty in a much higher rate than, for instance, state police officers, FBI, things like that. So what do we need to do to really create a safe space for people and also a place where

justice can happen when crimes do occur in these wilderness places? Yeah, I mean, through our own research, just even, skims the surface of anything that you've ever done. But just that is something that is also shown through to us as well, just as far as rangers and law enforcement in the National Park Service, just how much is on the line for them and how dangerous of a job it is. And also how not a lot of people understand that. You know, you see a park ranger and you may think, oh, well, they just tell me, you know,

the best trail to go on or what species of tree this is. And meanwhile, they're literally putting their lives on the line every single day. And yet, not a lot of people know that. And I think that through stories like this and through, you know, different stories we share and all the research that we do, you know, bringing that to light a little bit more is something that was unexpected. But we are so happy that we've started to uncover a little bit. Because, you know, admittedly, when I went to Yellowstone for the first time 12, 14 years ago, I had no idea that the park rangers there, I thought they just got elk to get out of the road, you know, or bison to move. And meanwhile, they could be investigating a serious crime as well. Yeah. And, you know, we still have something like a $5, six billion, what the Department of the Interior calls deferred maintenance back.

in our national parks. And earlier this year, President Biden signed a funding bill, I think, for like a billion dollars, which is, you know, a great first step, but nowhere close. And this so-called deferred maintenance backlog in our national parks isn't just like roads and toilets. It's also hiring rangers, staffing rangers, training them, making sure that they have working radios, they have the right weapons. So we have, for instance, some national parks where there's only one law enforcement ranger in the entire part. So like think about that, right? It's like take a, take a huge county and say there's just one cop, right, who works in the county, you know? I mean, that's a, that's a major problem. And it's a funding issue that we haven't gone nearly far enough to

address. Yeah, there's so much that there's only so much that one person can do. And it's just, you can't, you can't have one person then expect. For instance, crimes being solved. It's so much harder. if there's no people there to help. And I definitely think that that's such a good point to look at the funding that National Parks actually get to be able to take care of these kind of things. And then bringing it back to Julie and Lolly a little bit in your own research covering their case. And even earlier in this conversation, you said you have your own belief and your own kind of idea of what you think happened.

And you do mention in the book, there's a known serial killer by the name of Mark. of Onits as a possible suspect. He is known to have killed at least three different women and was in the state of Virginia and in the area at the time of Julian and Lolly their visitation to Shenandoah. So you mentioned him in your book. And do you know if there is any current plans to investigate him further and potential links to their case? Anything currently going on? Yeah. And as you probably know, you know, the FBI is a notorious black box where information is concerned. And so getting the FBI to tell you anything is super hard. So, so I can't say for sure. I do know that there's a brand new FBI agent involved in overseeing this case. And so hopefully that like new blood and new energy and

new thinking will really move it forward. So far as I know, the FBI has never gone down the road of Avonans after some very preliminary testing that I outlined in the book. I do know that the previous FBI agent who was in charge of this case and the one before and the National Park Service agents who are involved in this case, they all believe it's Darrell Rice. And they're like, we're done here. You know, it's Rice. We just need that one piece of evidence that's going to prove it.

That's all we're waiting for. That's all we need to do. You know, and one of the things that I was really happy about what Algonquin did with the book is they included a photo inset in the book that, you know, include some pictures of Lali and Julie in the crime scene and some of the evidence, but we also had the super talented cartographer named Margo Carpenter who made these maps. And one of the maps that I think is super important is the one that shows these eight murders of women and teenage girls that occurred in a very small radius around Shenandoah National Park over the course of about 16 months

right around when Lolly and Julie. So Lollie and Julie were murders two and three out of these eight. And if you look at it and you see how small that circle really is and you see how close to Shenandoah, some of the bodies were left and left, you know, using a lot of very similar things as Lolly and Julie, too. You know, women bound and gagged with duct tape, you know, put into blankets or sleeping bags, you know, hidden in rivers, things like that. You know, you start to think like, wow, there are some really distinct similarities here. And, you know, the FBI, former FBI profilers have even said, like, this sure seems like the work of a serial killer. So the fact that investigators haven't really been willing to go down that road just seems really irresponsible to me. Well, when you frame it that way of, you know, there are so many similarities, not only geographically, but in the manner of which these women were killed and what was done with their bodies afterwards.

And you see all that. And then you reflect back to that linchpin for David Daryl Rice of a phone number. It's just kind of like it seems like the balance is a little off when you put it that way, more than a little. So it is interesting, like you said, you know, why that wasn't really more considered versus people kind of just putting their hands together like, oh, well, we're just waiting for this one piece of evidence to. confirm that David Daryl Rice did it. I love how in the book you definitely just kind of paint that picture for people to kind of put it together themselves as well. Like here is the information. What do you see with this? As an outsider's perspective, I mean, of course, none of us are involved. We're not in the FBI. We're not in law enforcement, of course. But just as an outsider, like here is

the information. What do you think? And what do you see? I'm so glad to hear you say that because That was exactly my aim. And I've been really excited by some of the crowdsourcing of solving crimes that's happened. You know, just, you know, a year or two ago, you had the guys who solved the Zodiac Killer Cipher on a discussion board. And, you know, because this is an open case and because, you know, most people agree that this is a very solvable case, I really wanted to try to lay it out for readers in a way that would allow readers to make their own conclusions. And it's really my hope that folks will get in touch and tell me what they think, you know, because this is not done. And Deirdre N. Enright of the Innocence Project and I are still investigating it. We still get tips and leads all of the

time. I'm not done working on this case. I'm going to keep working on it until it's solved. And I don't see any reason why we can't, we amateur sluice can't get together and move the case forward. So I really wanted the book to kind of give folks the information that they needed if they really did kind of want to weigh in on this. If there is someone who's listening to this episode right now and they do have information, like you said, who would be the best person to contact with that information? The right answer is to say the FBI, right? I at this point have very little faith in the FBI as an organization.

Certainly contacting me would be very welcome. My author page is just my name, katherinemyles.net. And I'm very much keeping track of everything that people have been emailing me or sending me. It's been really interesting and helpful just to see how many people have something to kind of add. And that definitely goes into my files. It gets shared with Deirdre and Unright at the Innocence Project. I've been collaborating a lot with the surviving family members of the Colonial Parkway murders. Some people think those are linked.

So we've all been working together and sharing information. And, you know, like I said, we're going to keep working on it until it's solved. Well, I hope that this episode can help get more information out to you because it sounds like you're already gathering more information than you had when you wrote the book, which is exciting. because your book did just come out a few weeks ago. So I'm sure you're going to get more and more people who are heading your way with some information, hopefully. And one thing I read in the book is that a portion of the proceeds will be going to an outdoor organization in honor of the memory of Julie and Lolly. Have you picked what organization that's going to go to? I have an idea, but I want to make sure that I have the consent of Lollie and Julie's family and friends.

And so I'm going to say it's a really great organization dedicated to LGBT issues outside. But until, you know, I'd get a thumbs up from them, I'm going to, I think I'm going to keep it under wraps. But it was, that was a provision that Julie's family had for me and also some of the investigators had for me. And I so wholeheartedly support that. And I feel like, you know, especially where access is concerned for the wilderness,

one of the things we can all do and should do is find ways to support these organizations that really create a more equal playing field for wilderness access. Absolutely. And that's just what a way to honor, you know, their story in just a completely different way. I mean, of course, the book itself is totally an honor to their story and a representation of a lot of other stories. But for that to be, you know, for you to dedicate some funds to an organization I'm sure is going to be perfect.

I mean, just by your physical reaction, like you're all excited about it. It's probably going to be right on the most. And just to wrap up, we did have a question about you in particular and how, you know, of course, you've spent, you just said you're not even done, but you've spent years of your life dedicated to Julie and Lolly and other horrific crimes in the outdoors, specifically targeting women, of course. But as you've gone through all these court documents and seen horrific photos and gone through all the gory details and just really upsetting things, how. has that affected you and has it affected your relationship with the outdoors? Has it changed from when

you just described, you know, an hour or so ago about how the outdoors was somewhere that you found solace in. Has that changed at all through this journey? Yeah. And, you know, after I submitted the rough draft, the first draft of the book to my editor, she was like, wait, you've done a really good job of reporting and acting like you have absolutely no emotional interest in this story whatsoever. But I know for a fact that that's not true. And so she was the one who really challenged me to include my story and parts of my journey in the book as well. And I sort of resisted that at first because I didn't want to seem like I was appropriating Lolly or Julie's story or trying to compare my experiences to theirs. But I do really agree that in the end that the book is better because of it. And one of the

things that I really wanted to say was the people who do this work, who investigate these crimes, the work that they do is so unimaginably terrible. And I got the briefest snapshot into that, you know, just having the crime scene photos and the autopsy photos and the reports and things like that, you know, it wasn't even a fraction of what what they see every day. And it was really awful. And I talk about that in the book. And I talk about for a while, I was really scared. You know, I was so scared that I started taking handgun classes, which if you know me is sort of the last thing you'd expect me to do. And there was definitely a time when this really did get under my skin to the extent that it was really hard for me to be out in the woods. And then there was a

place, as I say in the book, there was a place somewhere along the line that I just got so mad, you know, that people could take the wilderness away from other people and that that anger really started to kind of fuel me a little bit. So it has definitely left a big mark. And there's always going to be that mark. But the idea that somebody could take the wilderness away from me is just so enraging to me that I kind of joke, God help the serial killer who like confronts me in the woods because I'm so mad right now that the person's going to be like backing away being like, whoa, big mistake. Not her.

Not her. Sorry. So sorry to bother you. You know, so I do like I'm a trail runner. That's like my very favorite thing to do in the whole wide world. And so I trail run most days. And I do a lot of ultralight camping like with my stand up paddle board and stuff like that here in Maine. But it is hard. Being in a tent right now is really hard. Not because I think somebody's

going to hurt me, but because like every time I close my eyes, what I see is those crime scene photos. And it's just so grisly and brutal and terrible that I think it did really take some of the joy away for me. And that's joy that I'll hopefully get back. But you know, as Deirdre Edright said to me, and I say this at the end of the book, I said, how do you keep doing this work? And what she said to me was, you know, what right do I have to look away? And that's how I kind of feel right now. As a journalist, as somebody who wants equal access for the wilderness, what right do I have to look away from these terrible things? Like, it's my job to look at them. And if that means I don't solo camp anymore, okay, that seems fair, right? Because I do believe in the power of this

work and the ability to force change. And if that means that I'm not solo camping, okay. You know, I mean, that seems like a fair trade-off, you know? Yeah, a sacrifice that's worth it. Yeah, and it does seem that this work is what lights your soul on fire. And what lit that fire underneath a lot of things is anger and rage, you know, like, how dare these people or this person or whatever, like take this away from me and so many other people? And I think at least personally for me, anger and rage about certain things really

is a driving force of me wanting to do something about it. And I think that a lot of people can resonate with that because, yes, it's your passion. And some would say, you know, identify with it's a calling or, you know, whatever you want to categorize it as. But a lot of it comes down to it's because something that moves you deeply. And sometimes that's not out of a pure joy. It's out of unrest and you're you're angry about it. And that's what really drives a lot of change. And it's something that your driving force really changed us after reading the book, especially, you know, knowing just a little bit about it. Like Cassie said, it was just like, yeah, we were familiar with it, but we didn't really know, you know, like, and this book really, I mean, Julian Lolley's case was special to us in a way as

well because it was the first out of however many hundreds and hundreds of topics and stories we could have done. Cassie chose this as our very first story because we could resonate with it as well and I think it touched a lot of people. So for you to really bring this back up to the surface and bring it to you the attention of an entire new generation of people is so special. So thank you so much for not only investing so much time into it, but also spending the last hour or so with us sharing your journey with it. Oh, well, thank you. And honestly, you know, having been a long time listener, it is a real thrill to be able to talk to you. And I'm so grateful that the two of you are willing to give Lolly and Julie more airtime and more play. Because, you know, as you know, I think

they more than deserve it. So I really appreciate your attention to them as well. Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully every, all the work you've done and any attention that we can help bring to it will help solve this case. And hopefully next time we talk to you, we'll have some better news. And you'll have to keep us updated on what organization you pick for the proceeds to go to, too, because we would love to know that as well. Yep. Yes. And maybe it's, maybe it's National Park After Dark listeners who solved this murder. How great would that be? That would be really cool. I could retire. Yeah. Like, we did what we needed to do. Yep. Yep. Well, honestly, the, the community here,

here is just unbelievable. And the reach, and even in the smallest stories that we share, we'll get an email of like, you'll never believe this. But I, you know, you're just like the personal connections that people have is just, it can do big things. And when you mentioned, I know we're just about to wrap this up, but I thought of one thing. When you mentioned amateur Sleuths and, you know, really having a positive impact and you never know what could happen, it reminded me of the documentary that came out a couple years ago. I don't know if you remember, but it's called Don't Fuck with Cats. I love that show.

Yes. And about Luca Magnata, I think, was the murderer. And what amateur sleuths people in their homes who are invested in this and have a different perspective, a different set of eyes or know something that or see something that people close to the crime aren't seeing. And you just never know where information is going to come from. And if don't fuck with cats has shown us anything, it could definitely happen here. So if anybody out there has any information, definitely Catherine Miles. Technically, let's say the FBI, but Catherine Miles is your go-to.

So thank you very much once again for coming on and sharing everything with us. My pleasure. And keep doing what you're doing because I'll be listening for sure. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale you'd like to share, send us an email at NPAD Stories at gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast.

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