National Park After Dark - She Lived Until Morning ft. Jean Muenchrath

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

Today we sit down for a conversation with Jean Muenchrath. We touch upon her tragic fall off Mount Whitney, but really focused on her story after the accident. Jean brings us through her recovery, her travels and how transforming her mindset changed her life just as much as the incident in the Sierra’s. Jean also sheds light on the importance of mental fortitude and how sharing stories of personal struggle is a strength.All proceeds of Jean’s book are donated to charity - pick up a copy of If I Live Until Morning HERE and learn more about Jean Muenchrath HEREFor a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off.Alo Moves: Use code NPAD to get a free 30-day subscription.Lume Deodorant: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with@lumedeodorant and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code NPAD at LumeDeodorant.com! #lumepod Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Off campus, L. Every year after, The Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Hello everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We hope you're all excited for this episode because Danielle so eloquently alluded to it on Monday. Yeah, did you like that? I did. You left us off. It was like mid kind of story and then you're like, and now you're going to hear it from the woman herself. And we just hopped off our call with her. And what a woman. I mean, just like infectious energy and just so bright and bubbly and obviously. our conversation touched on a lot of dark points in her life, but the way that she's carried forward is is really inspiring. So we're really excited to bring our conversation to everyone today.

Yeah. And her enthusiasm for travel is contagious. It makes, I mean, in that whole conversation, I was like, I should start planning my next trip right now. I know. As soon as we got off the call, like we ended the recording, but we still had further conversation about, you know, sharing itineraries and she has a lot of cool travel plans that she is willing and ready to share with Cassie when Cassie leaves us all to go to Norway. And yeah, I can't wait to leave you all for Norway. But if you are just tuning into this episode and for some reason, you did not tune in on Monday and you're just jumping into Thursday to give you a little recap here. Today, we are doing a follow-up to a story in a way we never quite have before. Monday's episode

covered Jean Munchrath's survival story after a fall from Mount Whitney. We talked a lot about her epic trip along the Sierras and the fall itself that are discussed at length in her book if I live until morning. However, the book is so much more than just her accident, just as Jean is so much more than what happened to her that day on the mountain. In the second half of her book, Jean goes into detail about how her life changed following her experience. She underwent such a profound physical, mental, and emotional and spiritual transformation

that we wanted to speak with her about all of it directly. Jean grew up in Colorado and experienced a childhood that left her with a big appetite for mountain adventures. She has traveled extensively throughout the U.S., parts of South America and most of Asia. She's an author, a veteran ranger of the National Park Service, where she worked for over three decades, and was also a guide with experience leading trekking tours in Nepal and Thailand. She also worked in Bhutan with the World Wildlife Fund.

Following her fall, Jean underwent a long and arduous healing journey. Through that journey, she discovered that we can choose the outcomes of our personal catastrophes. We don't have to be victims. Instead, we can work towards transforming our traumas into something that empowers us to become our best selves. She initially wrote, If I Live Until Morning, to heal herself, but then realized her story could inspire others to live their dreams and to find the courage and strength to deal with their greatest challenges.

For those reasons, she shares her story with the world and with all of us today. Jean, welcome to National Park After Dark. Hi, Jean, welcome to National Park After Dark. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. It's my pleasure. So we covered the story of your accident on Mount Whitney on Monday's episode. So our audience is very familiar with that incident and everything you went through.

What we were really trying to do for today is have a conversation with you about what came after your accident, how your life move forward and changed. Because in your book, if I live until morning, about half of it is dedicated to all of the amazing things that you've accomplished after your fall. And after reading just how transformative of an experience that was, we were really interested in speaking to you about that, your transformation. Indeed, it was a transformation. Yes. So you were in the hospital and recovering for months after your accident, of course. But pretty quickly, thereafter you traveled to, of all places, the Himalayas to go to Everest Base Camp with a friend after your then husband Ken just didn't really have interest in going on that

trip. So for many people, making such a long journey and partaking in such a physical trip after an accident like yours may not have been at the top of anyone's to do list. So our question, our first question, to begin this conversation is why that trip and why then? That's a great question. Well, that trip was, or the dream of that trip, the idea of it was a huge part of what kept me alive on Mount Whitney. You know, I made this vow when I felt the presence of death kind of over me laying in the tent right after my fall. And I honestly wasn't sure if I would live or not. But I was very lucid. And right before I went to sleep and I felt this presence and I knew.

I may or may not see it the light of morning. I made this vow to myself, if I live until morning, hence the title of my book, I will live my greatest dreams. It's kind of funny to think about why I didn't say if I live, because I just thought if I made it to morning, I would be okay.

But of course, it was a bigger five-day journey to get out of life. But at any rate, if I made it until morning, I was going to live my dreams. And the biggest dream I had, I'm age 22, going on 23, was to see the Himalayas. and that was inspired by my pure love for mountains. I live in Colorado. I mean, mountains are what uplift my soul.

And I wanted to see the big ones. And I also had a professor in college that really inspired that. So when I was trying to get out alive and sinking through the snow with all these severe injuries, and there were many times I just thought, I can't make it. I'm not going to make it. And I would just look up at the mountains, in this case, the Sierra Nevada range. And I would literally visualize the Himalayas in my mind. I'd be like, that's what you're going for. That's what you're living for. And it would keep me going

when I shouldn't have been able to keep going. So as soon as I felt remotely, physically able to go to Nepal, I felt it was important to realize that dream. So I did. You know, I trained for it as best as I could. I have the good fortune of living at high altitude, so that certainly helped. But it was not an easy journey. And it interesting, I really didn't have any physical therapy as such. After my accident, which I'm still suffering from, because right afterwards is really critical. But I have a very strong mind, and I just kind of push through it. And my main challenge, you may decide this is too much information, and you're welcome to edit this out. But, you know, I damaged my bladder in my fall. And so to urinate was extremely difficult. And for a while, I wasn't able to. And I literally was climbing

the summer before with my catheters, you know, on the web, you know, I was really difficult. And I had this plan of maybe your listeners will find this interesting. I was so determined I was going to take enough catheters for two months and figure this out and hire orders to carry him because I was going to live my dream. Unfortunately, my urologist was able to help me. I, you know, I still have challenges with that, but I didn't need the catheters anymore. So that was great. But that's how badly I wanted to see the Himalayas. So I went, you know. I mean, that's amazing. And I think a lot of people can relate to that in a way of maybe not exactly that experience it has to be, but to have some type of medical condition that you don't allow to stop you from what you want to accomplish. And to

plan it out in your head, like you said, like I'm going to pack all these gatherers that I need. I'll get there. I'm going to be there. And nothing is going to stop me, especially after everything that you went through. Yeah. And, you know, in some ways, maybe that wasn't totally realistic. when I look back on it, especially, you know, in a lessened sanitary country. But at any rate, I was really determined. And, you know, I also realized, I think, with the passage of time and age that we do have to adjust our plans and be more realistic. But at the same time, find ways to do things. And maybe, you know, in some ways, that's a big accomplishment.

I know when I stood watching the sunset on Mount Everest and I'm just bawling. And I realized standing there for every. everybody else, they had trekked the same distance I had, but the effort of getting there physically wasn't as huge for them as it was for me. For me, it was almost like standing on the summit of Mount Whitney, even though, of course, I wasn't, but just because of the amount of effort I'm involved with my physical conditions and survival situation. Of course, girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders.

That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. So in your book, you also described how, you know, growing up you wanted to do, you know,

X, Y, and Z, a bunch of different things before settling onto your career path. But one of the things that you mentioned was you wanted to do. travel the world. And I think a lot of people can relate to that and have a similar dream. So I found it so interesting that, you know, for people who have that desire to travel, our lists are huge, you know, of all the places that we want to check off and see an experience. And the very first trip that you decide to do after your recovery is to the Himalayas. And out of all the places in the world, and as you describe, you're flying in before you even really land, you hear this inner voice, come again and say, now I am home. And you just had this feeling of being at home in a way you've

never felt before. And I just found that so intriguing. And I really was wanting to ask you about that. How has that translated into your now? Yeah. I did have that deep feeling just coming in. We weren't even in Kathmandu yet, you know, the green terrace hills. I had just seen the mountains. getting ready to land. And I did that in her voice. She said, oh, I'm home. And then, you know, I kind of like, what? Where did that come from? But it was, it was a deep inner knowing. And I guess the best way I can maybe understand that from both where that came from at that time and then projecting that into the future, I did as a child have an extremely unusual fascination with all things Asian. Okay. I just did major spring.

cleaning and I pulled out my report. I like did a report for one of my geography classes like in fourth grade or something and it was all Asian countries. And I remembered when we had this Japanese couple move into our neighborhood. I'm, I don't know, eight years old and I insisted to my mom, I had to meet these people. And, you know, they were the only people that were of a different ethnicity at that time in the 1960s. And my mom had to go knock on their door and say, my daughter really must meet you. And I remember walking in their house and seeing the decor and my inner voice again, I have a strong inner voice, as you can tell. And it said, when I grow up, my house is going to be all Asian oriental. And when I got divorced many, many years ago and I had virtually nothing

except for what I had for my travels, I remembered that thought. And I was like, and I followed through on that to this day. I have this Asian fusion kind of house. But so I did have that sense. And what's really interesting, Danielle, is when I actually got into Nepal, I did fall in love with it. And again, since I did the spring cleaning the other day, I pulled out a video from one of my guiding trips, and I was watching it. And it's like, I still feel at home, more home in Asia. And yet I'm not part of that culture. It's like I don't belong to either culture, the one I'm in or that one. And yet, I feel at home there. And there is no place that has a stronger sense of home to me than Nepal to this day and I've traveled all around and it's just there. So past life, who knows? I don't know,

but it's, yeah, I didn't want to be the one to say it because I'm everyone in this audience knows. I'm the woo-woo person, but I totally would. That's the first thing I thought of. It's like it doesn't make rational sense, but there's something to that. And you have kind of leaned into that in a way that I find commendable because you're kind of in a way answering that that feeling or that, call if you want to categorize it as that. Because you go on in your book to talk about all of your, you know, your spirituality pursuits. And of course, it seems like your accident was the catalyst for that. So I was curious, have you ever, were you, obviously, you weren't raised Buddhist? And did you have any sort of religious background? Or what was that journey like?

Yeah. I was raised Catholic in my family. And I would. say kind of a moderate amount of dedication to that in my family, not necessarily in myself, but even I actually had a Buddhist statue when I was a child and I had a little altar and my parents put up with that and it was strange and I knew that, you know, eight-year-old girls in America don't do that, but that is the truth. And I guess you can say for sure that that surviving when I really shouldn't have lived was a literally a life-changing experience. As it is, for many people and I wanted to look at that. And I really felt for me that besides the dream of seeing the Himalayas, the other thing that really kept me alive was my mind. And I discovered that on

Mount Whitney because, you know, I had that mantra you may have shared in the other interview about I'm going to live. I'm going to live. I'm going to live. I just came out of nowhere. And I had to focus my mind so intensely when I was, before I fell, when I was coming down the mountain with my ice sex because the fall potential was so severe. And I don't think if I've been able to focus my mind like that, I wouldn't have survived. And I've carried that forward. And then, of course, as I got exposed to Eastern philosophy through my travels throughout Asia, I saw that something resonated with me. And I saw a lot of people suffering over there. And yet they still seem to have a better ability than many of us to cope. And I was curious about why that was. So I kind of followed that. And of course,

in Buddhism in particular is where my main interest is. But that said, Buddhism is almost more of a philosophy and a psychology than an actual religion in many ways because it really is the science of the mind and how to work with emotions and thoughts and relationships and things like that. So it really is mind-based. So definitely that came out of surviving Mount Whitney. And you mentioned in that that this is something that you saw was helping other people cope with really hard times. For you, Has that been the case? Has it helped you cope with the trauma and experiences that you've had? Oh, absolutely. I think learning to meditate and learning to sit with whether it be physical pain or emotional pain or even others' pain, it's given me a lot of tools. And so that has been very,

very helpful journey for me and to kind of find peace with that. And also it enables one to kind of separate our identity, which is so wrapped up in our emotions and our thoughts and our body that we can get consumed by all that as a victim of circumstances and kind of wallow in that for a long time. And that's not to say that we're not going to experience those things. We are and that is part of grieving and healing. But you can get stuck in that. And that doesn't serve anyone, not ourselves or others. And so I found that the practices that I've been exposed to have really helped me to say, you know, I'm bigger than this body. I'm bigger than these thoughts and I'm bigger than these emotions and help me to kind of just, I won't say disengage, but just kind of separate

from that and make that smaller and also to kind of look at the world differently so that I can see others suffering in a more compassionate way. And the more I can acknowledge the suffering of others, then again, I don't feel like it's all about me and my problem. I'm like, I'm just part of this, you know, universe where so many people have issues because I'm not the only one. Actually, everybody has stuff they're dealing with. It's just we're dealing with different stuff and different intensities. Sure. Yeah, of course. And I actually pulled a quote, one of the quotes from your book that I really enjoyed. And you said the hardest mountains to conquer are the ones constructed inside of our minds. So you are so clear about how powerful our minds can be, obviously, through your words, in your book and even now. And I also enjoyed how you translated that into it not just you and your accident, but how how transformative, conquering your mind can be to deal with other things in life. You go on to say, you know, you obviously went through the death of family members, a divorce, like big life-altering things piled on top of, you know, of course your accident

happened and it was traumatic even in the moment, but you go on to say you had decades worth of recovery, physical recovery, not even talking about mental stuff. So just talking about how powerful the mind can be, I think so often we focus on what we can see. And what we can see is the physical recovery trajectory of someone. Like, okay, you had this fall, you broke your back. And now your back is better. So there we go. And it's kind of in the past. But there's a lot more going on. Of course, as we all know. And just your focus on the mind and how focusing on the way you process things and contemplating death is another huge thing that you touch on that obviously has to, has to, is wrapped up in.

in that category as well. So how is that? I know that's also a big like Eastern and Buddhist thing is thinking about death a lot. And for Americans, we're kind of like, ugh, not really, not for me. You know, it really is. Yeah, I find it kind of interesting. I have found, you know, the mind through time, because it's been over 40 years now since my accident. So I'm now in my 60s. I'm aging and not able to do all the things I want to do or to the level because I'm the girl that could, would hike every day nonstop and around every mountain range until I dropped if I could. But that's not reality for me. So at any rate, I have learned to try to adjust things, but finding a balance between, I think it's still important to dream big and to try to do things that you're able to, but readjust with a

sense of reality. And I think I've gotten strength through that. Like you said, I've had, death of a lot of friends and a close family member died in my home. And yeah, I also went through withdrawing from painkiller addiction. That was not easy. So it's just been kind of an up and down kind of roller coaster ride for me, if you will. And regard to death, I mean, obviously I faced it on the mountain, but Eastern philosophy does put death in your face. And my travels in Asia also, I saw so much tragedy. And death is kind of displayed there. I mean, literally, it's, It's in your face. You see it everywhere. And, you know, whether it's on the Ganges River with bodies floating down or people that have lost a child, they're walking around for alms. And I mean, it's so in your face. And I actually think we in the Western world, you know, we do cover that. We don't want to talk about it. And I find that actually very tragic. It's not a pleasant topic, but we're all going to die. I mean, that is a fact of life. So I think by actually thinking deeply about it and facing and preparing for that in other. because we don't know whether it's in 30 seconds or in, you know, many decades ahead.

I think we can develop a sense of peace with it and a relationship with it and be better prepared to cope with it. It doesn't have to be this big horrible thing if we're willing to actually look at it. I think it's true with any of our problems. You know, if we keep trying to not deal with our traumas or our fears or whatever's going on in our lives and we kind of, we bury it, right? We just don't push it down, push it down. And it will always resurface. I mean, you have have to heal it or it will always bubble up. You can't hide our skeletons in the closet forever. They have a life of their own. They will come out. And so I think by actually facing it and honestly working through it and also sharing that with other people, you know, I've found that to be

very healing, whether it's through podcast interviews or in my book, the more we can share our experience, then we realize our commonality with all humans that everybody's going to stop and we support each other that you're not alone. You know, you've got your own issues and I can support you and yours and you can support me and mine. And that's, we can grow together from it instead of being all tragic. We can actually be better people if we choose to because of facing death or facing whatever our issues are. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. We talk about death, I would say, very often on this podcast. Yeah. In fact, we have fully gone into full conversations about our death plans of what we would do. And just out of curiosity, I'm sure that you've thought of your death plan.

We have ours, and I'm still working on mine because I can't decide. I don't like the idea of being cremated and I also don't want to be buried. So I'm kind of in a, in the middle of deciding. But I'm just curious if you have a death plan that you've decided on. Well, I definitely want to be cremated. That's for sure. And I would like my ashes to. go to some sacred and beautiful places. And what I found is, so when I was on that first trip to Nepal, my friend Moore and I were hiking to this fabulous valley in the Everest region called Zangla. And we got to Zongla. I said to her, oh, this is where I want my ashes to be scattered. Promise me, you will come back and do that. Well, we're still friends 40 years later. And a few months

ago, we were talking. And she says, do you still want your ashes to go to Zangla? And I said, I wouldn't mind that, but there's other places because I've grown through time. And so that's one thing. It's good to have a death plan, but it's good to revise that because you're growing and changing as a person. And so, you know, I think of Lama Yoru, which is in the Himalayas in northern India, and a place called Ladakh is a possible place in Nepal. So, yeah, a variety of places and probably, you know, a meditation center that I'm really attached to in California. Yeah, so you want to be a little bit of everywhere.

Yeah. Well, yeah, because I like to travel. So I guess put me on the winds and there we go. Keep you everywhere. Yeah, but you know, my heart's in Asia, so probably a lot in Asia, but some here. That makes sense. Well, speaking about travel kind of going there for a second, you speak a lot about how despite certain physical or even financial limitations traveling abroad and alone was.

obviously transformative for you beyond measure, but especially your travels throughout most of the Asian continent, which we've already kind of touched on. And you do mention that some of those trips became more like pilgrimages. So can you elaborate for our audience who, many of which are huge fans of solo travel, how exploring alone can impact your life? Hugely. I think it's very empowering. And I've done that in a variety of ways. I mean, I've also gone on some tours, like when I went across the Caracore Mountains in Pakistan, I did that on a tour, mostly because I'm a woman. If I've been a guy, I wouldn't have gone by myself, to be honest. But I think you're forced to really plan carefully or should, and then you just have to pull it off.

And, you know, when you travel, stuff will always happen, always. And unpredictable things, some more difficult than others, but you find your way through it because you're don't have anyone else to turn to, particularly if there's not a lot of people around that speak English, you know, or I traveled a lot before, you know, phones and all of that. So you're really on your own. And I have found that's given me a lot of strength. And it just, it works out. But you have to be really flexible. Like, oh, shit just happened. Uh-oh, this was not part of the plan. And how do I readjust? And sometimes, in fact, I was reading, because again, I did all spring cleaning, I was reading about my solo trip to Japan the other day, and I had this, a lot of different

situations, including getting locked out of my locker when I'm wet naked at an onsen hot spring, and there's only males in the desk. And no one speaks English. I'm like, oh, my gosh, how do I get help? And then we go back to the pool because the key got lost in the locker. Anyway, eventually, someone came to help me, and it all worked out. But as I was reading through all these different adventures in an email I had sent my follow, I just laughed because I said, it seems to me I made this comment, I spend more time in Japan

trying to figure out where I'm going and backtracking. And it's so much harder in this really developed easy country than it ever was in India. And I realized that was because there was more language barriers and things like that. But at the same time, I made the comment. But somehow it always works out and it's more magical in the end, you know. And so I think just having an open. mind to maybe I'm supposed to be here and this plan didn't work out for a reason and going with that flow. But it's truly empowering, you know, because then you're like, oh, I can do whatever

I set my mind to. So yeah, go alone. Go alone. Or at least go with a friend and separate for a little while, like a couple days or a week and try it out. Yeah. I think a lot of us, especially as women, as you touched upon, it's difficult, whether that's based on the location like Pakistan or just difficulties in our own minds that these blocks that we put up of like worries and what if and it would be easier to be with somebody and there is value to being alone and sometimes that decision is made on our own volition and other times it's just a result of certain circumstances that were forced into and you had another I love your book if you can't tell I had another quote that I pulled you were speaking about how after you had separated from

Ken, after, you know, over two decades of marriage, it was difficult to accept at first. But then you said it was kind of like your ticket to freedom and the universe giving you an opportunity to lead a more meaningful life. And I just found that so profound because, you know, in the moment, damn, you know, like how can you look at a experience like that? You know, for many of us, we experience moments like that of our life as we know it falling apart. And all of these, like, I don't have my person or my certain set of comforts and what am I going to do now? And in retrospect, you look at it as it was an opportunity and you were able to let go of that and it brought you into a new life, a new chapter of your life.

Yeah. Well, you know, I remember being devastated. Of course. Oh, my God. You know, but yeah, I think it was within that first week. I was really mourning and upset and all of those things. And then it was like, but it doesn't have to be this way. You know, if I cling on to the way it always was, you know, it's gone now. So cleaning on to something that's gone, why are we doing that? It's not helping. It's gone. It's gone.

Acknowledge that. You know, it's a definite self, right? And so it's like, okay, now I can again just feel sorry for myself. I mean, I should grieve it. I do think that's really important because we we have to process stuff, but process it and then recognize, oh, there's an opportunity here. And now I'm the creator of my own reality. So what's next? Am I just going to drift and let it take me where it's going to go, which I have to be open to? But at the same time, what is it I want now? Like, what life do I want?

So, yeah, I do think it's important to create that as an opportunity. I think every crisis can be an opportunity, maybe not right away. Because, again, I do think processing and healing and acknowledging what we've, been true, but trying to see it in a positive light. It's what we do with our pain that matters. It's what we do with it. Right. And kind of on the subject of processing things and in relation to your accident that you had, you mentioned that watching survival stories was no longer something that was doable and you didn't really like hearing reports of search and rescues that were happening in Mount Reneer. Is that something that you still struggle with today? Or how has it been, I mean, hearing these reports and

seeing these survival stories are pretty much, they're very widely seen and heard. How is that today to hear those and see those? That's a great question. I feel like I've evolved a lot in that. So the more that that trauma was raw, I couldn't read survival stories. I couldn't watch movies, you know, like that. It was just too intense because I could put myself there. And so in some ways that re-traumatized myself over and over and over. And I really feel that I've made huge progress in that. And I do have to say, I think some of that was writing my book because it was a real opportunity to revisit what happened and how I felt about it.

And, of course, I had to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite, which meant I had to keep dealing with it. And, of course, I eventually went back to Mount Whitney to near the place of my accident. And I feel like that's helped me process it. And, of course, when I worked for the National Park Service, there were always rescues. And some of them I had to be on. And that was fine. I'm glad to help people. But I know I had more of a tender heart in approaching those because, again, I've been there.

I wished I had been rescued and I wasn't, you know. But just trying to, I could place myself in that person's shoes and just feel for what they were going through in the moment. But also I could project to what they were going to go through afterwards, like for many decades, you know, that untold story that doesn't get told in the media after the gay survival type of thing. But I'm much better at it. I have been able to watch some movies now and process that. And I do pick and choose like riding a roller coaster is not a good idea for me. Rapid fall. You know, that's so visceral. But a lot of other stuff I've been able to do, I find I can say.

stand on the edge of a mountain now and look down and I couldn't have done that a couple decades ago. So that's good. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. I mean, kudos to you. Yeah. I don't know if I could even look at a roller coaster after that, let alone contemplate going on one. I already can't look at a roller coaster.

I think it's important to know what triggers can be healthy and what triggers are not healthy, right? Right. It's like, you know, obviously you want to push yourself in your journey of healing and because you don't want to, you know, just be like, well, this list of things is just I can't even acknowledge for the rest of my life. But there is also a healthy boundary of like, there are just some things that are just not meant for me to be involved in anymore. And that's okay. Yeah, I think you do need to find that balance there. Absolutely. Right. So you just mentioned really briefly about your time in the National Park Service. And of course, that was a huge part

of your life for so many years. And in your book, you talked about like your kind of of introduction to it in your time in glacier and just being in the backcountry and kind of just away from people seeing like 50 or 52 people in a summer or something like that. It's fabulous. It's just a wild. So I just have to ask, you know, what is one of, I mean, it's hard to choose, I'm sure, in three decades worth of experiences. But are there some highlights or favorite memories that you have of your time in the service?

I do. A couple of them. I'll just share them, my guess. Sure. Well, starting out in Glacier National Park as a backcountry ranger, that remote summer of 52 people, I spent my 21st birthday in a tree for two hours because I had an angry mama bear near me. So that was kind of dramatic. I would have to say the highlight of my career was the Emperor of Japan and his wife came to Colorado in 1994.

and I was selected to be their personal guide. So I wrote in the chauffeur, you know, in the, what do you call it, that big van or whatever, just with them. I sat in the back between them and, you know, we went out for lunch and I gave a tour of the park. And it was very, very special, I have to say, really the highlight of my career. And I was, I worked in visitor centers and gave a lot of public educational programs and trained staff to do all that. But I was also the artist and resident coordinator for a long time. for Rocky Mountain National Park, and we hosted the first youth artists. So we had an eight-year-old

girl as an artist, and she was like an artist, like really talented, and she's in college now, and doing amazing things. And that was really special. And then right before I retired, we had another artist-in-resident that had been selected for a huge grant, kind of a national endowment of the arts grant. And he gave a world premiere at the Boulder Philharmonic Orchestra. Colorado and getting to introduce him and talk about arts with that event was really, really special. So, yeah, I mean, and of course, just working with visitors and, yeah, giving talks and dressing up like a bear and the pine beetle and things like that.

I did some really out there public programs, but I enjoyed that a lot. But, you know, I didn't write much about that in my book because it was more of a story, not about my career as much as it was, really, about the accident and how it affected me. as a person, you know, personally. And those travels was a huge part of it. But simply because it was my dream. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and somehow between, you know, your accident, your recovery, your 30 years with the National Park System, you also just sprinkle in like a little bit of, oh, I also work for the World Wildlife Fund. And I was also an expedition leader in the Himalayas and in Thailand. So like what? Just add an and after every title. And, and, and, and,

Yeah, so I was curious just because you just touched so briefly on it. What was your work with the World Wildlife Fund? So with the World Wildlife Fund, it was just a couple months stint in Bhutan. And I had already traveled there kind of as a visitor, but then this was for work. And my job was to work in one of their remote national parks and help them develop a visitor center. and their exhibits. So that was my job and it was a very also life-changing experience. I honestly didn't want to come home and I remember saying, gee, if I wasn't married, I don't think I would come home. I mean, I felt also very at home there, although Nepal more so, but such a beautiful landscape and, of course, there's temples and things everywhere and I was literally living there in a tiny village and I enjoyed that. It was a lot of hardship at the same time. I don't think I works so hard in my life. And then, of course, I did guide in Thailand and led many treks to

Everest Base Camp, which was wonderful just because I wanted to be back in Asia. And it was nice to have somebody else pay the bill and share it with other people. So yeah, it was a great time. And I'm sure that experience is quite different as a expedition leader versus a solo traveler or traveler with, you know, just some friends and things like that. So how was that experience? Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, you get up like at four in the morning because you're trying to coordinate with your local staff and planning out the day and then you don't go to bed till late because you have to regroup with your staff and you know in my book I described a few of the crises that happened on the trail and

there's you know when you travel on your own there's crises but when you travel with other people there's more crises and there's more expectations on how those are going to be managed depending on your clientele and sometimes it's life-threatening stuff you know so you really have to rise the occasion with that I found it a very taxing job. I mean, I enjoyed it. I'm glad I did it. It's my back that actually forced me to stop doing that, which then I shifted my career from

seasonal park ranger to a permanent park ranger. But I'm grateful I did that. But I will say I like traveling alone or with my partner. I like my freedom to create my own agenda and do my own thing and not do the group thing. So, I mean, the group thing's okay. And for certain trips, you kind of have to be in a group or, you know, other trips I might be in a group. But if I have a choice, I'd whether go by myself or just go with a close friend and really have a richer experience where I'm carving out my it itinerary and spending what I want to spend, you know, which is usually very little.

Of course, yeah. Yeah. You like to rough it, it seems. So, which isn't for everyone. When you were just talking about that experience, you mentioned that you would deal with crises and that there were, I'm sure, a lot of things on the trail that would happen when you're in groups. Did your experience having the accident that you had interfere or cause you to react differently in those crises? Or like, how did that affect you having your own and then being part of rescue? Right.

I think it did affect me, but maybe in a more wholesome way in the sense that I was very aware of the gravity of some of the situations, you know, or what they could potentially be. I mean, we're having to march somebody down from 16,500 feet in Nepal through the night. I mean, he's vomiting without due sickness. He's really sick. And, you know, I gave him medication. And I mean, I marched him down. And he fought me on that. But it's like, no, we have to get you down.

And I'm going to sleep in your tent. And if things aren't going well, I'm going to march you all the way through the night to get you out with the helicopter, you know, because there's a responsibility. I'm literally responsible for him. And, you know, I can't control all the outcome of things. But yeah, you just take it more seriously. I remember I had some problems on the Thailand trip as well with people getting injured and trying to evacuate them. And you just, you take it seriously. So, yeah, but I don't want to say it would traumatize me.

I think I also had the advantage of I was an emergency medical technician or an EMT for a good part of my career and did respond to a variety of emergencies with the park service. But you kind of learn, and so this is post-accident, you learn that when there's a crisis, like a huge crisis, you deal with it. Now you start barking out orders, you make decisions, you take care of the situation. You can fall apart later when the scene is clear, but he's gone when you go home or whatever. And I've learned that that's just how you manage those situations. You deal, you're processing, your personal stuff later. You just got to rise to the occasion.

And so that's what I did. Right. I mean, spoken like a true first responder. Right. That kind of leads me into something else that we were curious about, you know. So you wrote your book, obviously, later on, many years after your experience. So our question was, was this something that was kind of always on the back burner and in the back of your mind? Or what prompted you to put pen to paper and put your experiences on paper and why at that moment in time? That's a very good question. I really had never intended to write a book. I had friends who told me for decades, you should write a book. I heard it until I was sick of it, to be honest. And I was like, no, I'm not writing a book. And some of it was I just didn't see myself as a writer. So again, I think it's important to reevaluate how we see ourselves, you know, just because you haven't done something doesn't mean you can't do it, right? But also, you know, I was in this marriage for a long time where I couldn't even talk about the accident. And so to write about it, that wasn't going to work. And so it was only years later when I was seeing a trauma therapist and he finally looked

at me and he said, you should write a book. I remember going, oh, not again. Not you too. Yeah, exactly. But I remember him saying, I think that would be helpful for your healing. And I was at a point because I had so much chronic pain. I was like, okay, I'll do whatever it takes because I want to heal, not just physical. I want to heal emotionally. I want to hear spiritually. I want to be a whole person as much as I can.

And so I said, okay, I'll write a book. So I started writing and it was really, really healing. And I think a big part of it for me is I started getting curious about Matt Whitney. For a long time, Mount Whitney had been my big enemy in life, you know, the thing do you avoid. And so I got on Google Earth, which was fairly new or new to me. And I wasn't very savvy on the computer. And I really, remember kind of sliding over the mountain a few times. Like, right, I was trying to find where I fell, and all of a sudden, I'm sliding down and it, and it was traumatizing, I have to say. But I started to get more and more curious about it. And then that made me, as I was riding and I'm processing, I thought, you know, I should go back. I should go back. And I didn't know if physically I was

capable of going back. But I think one of the lessons I learned from all of this was, sometimes we have to go back before we can move forward. We have to really revisit something. We have to get through it, process it, deal with it. And then when the time is right, move forward. And I feel like going back to Mount Whitney only because I wrote that book, helped me to go, yeah, okay, let's face it, head on, you know. So, yeah, so here I wrote a book. Wow. It's quite a part of journey. Yeah, add and author at the end of this. Yeah, and that's next. Stand by. Check back. And now that you've done that, like you said, we need to shift in our, make this shift in our mind just because we haven't done something. Doesn't mean we can't. And now that you've done this, it kind of opens the door of like, well, what else can I do? What else have I been unfamiliar with that now I will move forward with? So, anxious to see what you do next, Jean.

Yeah, stand by. Well, see, I would like to write a few more books and do some more intense traveling while I'm able to. Yeah. Amazing. Do you have another book that you're working on? Well, right now I'm kind of dawdling with the idea of turning my present book into a kind of a young adult youth version, which would be a much, much shorter book and not into the depth of this original version, which was more of a memoir, you know, how this accident affected me. but I would also like to write about what I learned from all of this because I think that's very important and got some other travel books that I'd like to do. You know, but it takes forever to write a book and I don't like to sit and sit and sit, which is what writing requires.

So, yeah, some of that. And we'll see what happens. But, yeah, I want to travel some more. And, you know, I've got certain things I've sort of set aside in my life for different chapters in my life, which I think is good for everybody to think about. I have a friend that has a great quote. He says that when you retire, you're in the go-go years. Then you go into the slow-go years. And then you go into the no-go years. And I think it's been, it's been very helpful for me to think of these different chapters in our lives of when you can do different things and when you should do them

and when you need to let them go and where you are or readjust those things. So I encourage all you 20 and 30-year-olds and younger to get out and play. It's not all about work. Go hard, dream big, because that will shift as you. your life gets complicated as you get further in and yeah, and you get older and things. So, yeah, playing the right thing to do when. So I have things to do and I'm slower, but I don't want to tackle this now. Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. Because it's not like you're saying don't do it. It's just like, I'm going to do that later. Right, right. Yeah. Like I have traveled so much in Asia and some in South America. And last year, I went to Europe for the first time, you know, because I was always

saving Europe for later. And all of a sudden, later is here, you know, and that's okay, too. So, yeah. Where in Europe did you go? We went to the, we spent three weeks in the Dolomites hiking in Italy, and then we went over to Slovenia. And yeah, it was really, it was very nice. Yeah. Very cool. Amazing. I have to ask with your book, because I think that a lot of times when you put yourself out there and you put these experience out there, you attract other people who have a similar mindset or have a similar experience. When you put out your book, did you, find a response of people who had been through similar experiences as you? I have gotten quite a few emails and I always respond to an email, you know, unless it's like totally inappropriate or something

like that, right? Yeah. Because I've had, I've had a couple authors I wrote to a long time ago that had profoundly impacted me and I got a handwritten letter from them and I still have those letters. And I've never forgotten that. Do you know that that is really meaningful for the person on on the receiving end. And so I do get people that reach out. And usually their tragedies aren't necessarily on mountains. They're often nature lovers and they get outside a lot. But their tragedy can be anything from cancer to losing a loved one to all kinds of things. I mean, a lot of just things that people deal with in life. But I am always touched that they share that and reach out because there's a sense of vulnerability.

And sometimes people can see that as weakness. I see it as courage. You know, when people are willing to talk about what's really going on, that's a courageous thing. They should not be knocked down for that because they're actually helping themselves, but by sharing, they're helping others. And it gives other people inspiration and courage and strength to move through their own stuff. And so, yeah, I do get a variety of things.

And sometimes there's an emailing back and forth. And it's just a nice, beautiful exchange. to kind of encourage people and yeah, just talk with them and whatever. A couple times I've done a few Zoom calls of people that really wanted to talk and I'm okay with that. Well, that's wonderful. It's just being so, like you said, vulnerable and open and willing to have those conversations that, you know, I think that when you said that the people, a lot of people

who reach out to you did not have an experience on a mountain and they're coming from all these different walks of life. But I think that's so unsurprising to me because. even though your book is centered about a near-death experience and an incident in nature and on a mountain, the underlying theme is the death of a life that you thought you were going to have. And so many people who reach out who are in similar situations, whether it be a medical diagnosis, the death of a loved one or in that vein, you're mourning the death of what you thought your life was going to be and the trajectory you thought you were going to be on and all of

these wonderful things you thought you were going to do either yourself or with this other person. And when that something happens, that transforms that. You want to reach out to other people who understand that and who can talk through that monumental time in your life. And I have a feeling that they're not reaching out to you for answers. They're probably reaching out to you for camaraderie. And would that be your experience? Yeah, I would say generally that's experience. occasionally people want answers or advice, which is tricky because, you know, I don't always know somebody like you would a close friend where you could really tailor that. But I would say most people are just trying to connect with you and share that. And I think they get a little bit of relief by

sharing that, you know, because it's safe. I'm not going to broadcast out to the world that so-and-so talk to me about this deep problem or challenge that they're having. So, yeah, I think that's true. And I know when I wrote my book, I wasn't sure I was actually going to publish it. You know, I wrote it more to heal. And then when I reflected on it, I thought, you know, there's a powerful story here. And it's not about me. I want to release my book because if I can help even one person, if I can, I had kind of two goals when I decided to let it out of the world.

And that was, I want to inspire people to live their dreams. I think it's really important to have dreams, whatever they are. They're different for all of us. But to live your dreams, life is truly short. None of us know how long we have. So do what's really important to you. But also I wanted to acknowledge just the fact that the human condition involves suffering. And, you know, I wanted to inspire people to, I guess, to have the courage to look inward and to try to cope with

their stuff because they can heal it and they can move forward. And I always wanted to say, if I can do it, you can do it. Well, I think you've done a beautiful job with that. I mean, your book reached us and now hundreds of thousands of more people. So we're really thrilled that you decided because like you said, it does take courage. It's not an easy thing. And I guess my question for you in particular with your writing process, like you said originally, you didn't go into it thinking that it was going to be a published work. It was more of just like an exercise you were doing yourself, kind of like a very formal version of journaling, if you will. But did you experience as you were writing it any sort of emotional, like did it open any wounds or did it heal that?

Like I, when I think of writing about traumatic things in my own life, it kind of, and I don't know if it's just at the point I'm in or not, but it just seems like it would do more emotional damage than good. What was your experience with that? Well, I do think the timing of when we take on those things is really important because I think right away it is too painful and too raw. I think it's good to get it out there, but maybe not spend a lot of time with it. it and maybe not go as deep with it because we're just too we're not in a good place for that right um for me of course i wrote it many decades after my accident so i had that just time processing but also not fully processing

and i did find i had actually both of those reactions while i was writing i had the times where it was um truly painful and i would cry and think about it and come back to put it aside and then kind of come back to it and that would start more of a personal self-inquiry about what is it about this that was so difficult. And again, but that was helped me process it. So that was really good. But I'd say overall, the end effect was that it enabled me to make peace with it and to understand things. Because by really looking at him, you start to understand why this event unfolded this way. Yeah, it could have gone that way. We should have had, you know, but it didn't. So facing that reality and understanding it and learning from it and trying to become a better person because of that tragedy,

I think is always the real challenge. But yeah, the timing is important. But there was both. And I have to say every time I listen to one of my podcasts that gets released, you know, there's always that line in there. You know, if I live in the morning, I'm going to live my biggest dreams. And every time I hear that, I feel this emotion rise up from my. my heart. And it's my, hey girl, you're in your 60s. How much, how much time do you have? What are those dreams? Get with it. You know, so it's almost haunting me in a sense in a good way. But like,

it's a reminder. Like, you know, you, you set out that that's why you're going to live. So let's, let's do those dreams that are most important. Speaking of those dreams, what are some of your big dreams that you have next? Well, the, the big dream I have, which, uh, I was going to do and then COVID hit, of course, COVID hit right after I retired. And I have to say that was a real blow because the last three years of, you know, early 60s. And you're like, oh, I've only got so much time in your body's changing. And of course, I've got chronic issues as well. So I was like, oh, that was not easy.

But anyway, off and on, I have had this aspiration for a good 30 years. And I can do it. I can't do it. And probably the problem with the park service careers, you don't get summers off. right. So anyway, I wanted to make a pilgrimage, and it's exactly what it is, to Mount Kailash in Tibet. And I have been to Tibet, but Mount Kailash is considered the most sacred mountain on the earth to the most people, to Buddhists, to Jains, which is a different religion, and Hindus. And I'm more concerned about the drive getting there than the actual hike, because it's really bumpy roads,

which is not something my back needs for four days each way. So I'm trying to figure out that. Oh, it takes four days to get there. Each way, driving, yeah, from the capital. Yeah, rough roads. Yeah. Well, you also have to climatize because you're going to very high altitude. So I'm hoping next year, if that goes well.

And as you ladies know from my email, I sent, Peru has been very high on my list since the 1980s. But when I was your age, in the 1980s, you couldn't go to Peru. It wasn't safe because of all the militant groups there. And of course, then I had a career and that was difficult. So specifically, I want to get into the Cordilla Blanca Mountains because I love craggy mountains covered with ice. I'll just say it. Oh, I love craggy mountains with ice.

I don't need to climb them. I just want to look at them. Anyways, yeah, I would have to be there. So I was going to do that maybe this summer, but I did a little research. And again, the roads are problematic. So I need to do some more research. And I think in a couple of years, I'm going to just place myself and suck it up and spend the money and be at some of those more expensive lodges that are higher up so they don't have to

make as always drive. So I'm figuring those out. But those are too high on my bucket list. Like those are the things I want to do before I die as far as traveling. But this summer I'm going to Norway to do some hiking for a month, which I'm very much looking forward to. Yeah, and I want to get back to Japan. Have you been to Norway before? No, no. So looking forward to it. Have you? No, it's really high on my bucket list. I really want to go hiking in Norway. So I'm very... Send me an email, late summer. I'll send you some pictures and I'll send you an itinerary.

I would love that because it has been... I've said it so many times I want to go to Norway so badly. So I would love that. It looks stunning. So I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, the fjords and the mountains and the summertime is just... Even the winter I would love because all the northern lights and everything. But...

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to the summer because, again, with my career, I couldn't take... a month off in the summer. So, yeah, trying to seize the day while I can't. Well, between all of the adventures that you've had, you know, post-accident and into today and all of the work you've done to work through what has happened since your accident is just, it's truly inspiring and it's just such a positive spin on such a dark incident. You know, it could have gone another way so easily. And I, you know, so easily. And it takes so much more work to navigate, navigate it in the way in which you have. So it's just so commendable. And thank you for not only talking to us today,

but also sharing your experience with the world because it's not easy. And no one, you didn't have to do that. No one, you know, aside from all the people in your ear, you know, chirping about writing a book that maybe pushed you to that point, you know, no one, you didn't have to, but you did. And I'm sure it's made such a positive impact on so many people, whether they write to you or not. So congratulations on your success and all of your adventures. Yeah. And I am donating 100% of my profits from the book. So it's not about me.

It's about others. Wow. So I think it's really good. What do the donations go to? It's a variety of causes. I'm donating to several Buddhist organizations to help people. learn to meditate to train their mind and work more skillfully with issues that they may have. And I've donated a fair amount of money to Ukraine and to help people over there.

And a whole host of different causes, kind of whatever, you know, I don't go for people that reach out to me. So whoever rings my bell and, you know, what I really want to help people. And, you know, I did a go fund me recently for somebody that had a really big dream. And I wanted them to live that dream because I know important those dreams. can transform our lives when we live them. So yeah, a variety of things. But it feels really good and I'm not attached to the money that way. And it's, yeah, it's wonderful. That's amazing. And I love that you're just picking and choosing causes that mean something to you in the moment. And it's, it's, that's amazing. Yeah. So if people want to support you and

your charitable donations, your book, if I live until morning, is available online, of course, because that's where I got it. So everyone go out there, grab a copy, share it with others. And thank you again, Jean, for being here with us today. You're so welcome. Great to chat with you ladies. And thank you for the wonderful work you do. Yes, thank you so much. Very inspiring podcasts. Oh, thank you. All right. Take care and be in touch and remind me, Cassie, to send y'all in you both some pictures on your dream of my tenure. Oh, I will remind you. For the Dolomites too. Yeah, please do. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at npadpodcast.com.

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