National Park After Dark - Smokey Bear Origin Story: Lincoln National Forest

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Smokey Bear has been an iconic National forest Service symbol and has served as a staple in fire prevention safety education for generations. However, not only is Smokey’s origin story dark, but he was also once a living, breathing, American black bear.  Stick around for the end of the episode as Cassie's partner Al, a long time wildland firefighter, shares his experiences in the field and tips on fire prevention.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Microdose Gummies: Use code NPAD to get free shipping and 30% off your first order.Beam: Use our link and code NPAD for up to 40% off.  Lume Deodorant:  New customers GET $5 OFF a Lume Starter Pack with code NPAD.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Monday AI agents took over my work. And I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. They live inside Monday.com. So they see the full picture. My work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the data.

It's safe, which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff, knowing everything runs smoothly in the background. It's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders.

That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. The fictional bear, Smoky Bear, has been an integral part of our education from the early years of elementary school into our everyday lives of seeing him at our local fire stations and parks standing next to fire safety signs.

We are all familiar with the iconic symbol of fire prevention. The Smoky Bear cartoon educates us with slogans like, Smokey is counting on you, followed by important facts about fires. He's been a staple in our lives. alive since we can remember, with his own song anthems and even having his own cartoon TV show in the early 70s. But did you know that Smokey the Bear was real? The cartoon character we all know and love was alive once, in the form of a real-life bear cub who survived a dangerous wildfire. His story touched the hearts of millions around the nation and serves as a constant reminder of why only you can prevent

wildfires. Welcome to National Park After Dark. I got to say, I love that you said he survived because everyone is going to be up in arms about the animal. Does the animal live? Does anything bad happen to the animal? I am not continuing until I know that this bear survives. Newsflash he does. He does. This isn't, I'm not going to ruin everyone's lives with this episode. He does survive. And this was a story that I didn't really know. Actually, Danielle, you pointed. me in this direction and you're like, please, can you cover this story? So finally, I have come around

to it and we're doing it today. It's so funny because every once in a while, like we have this list, obviously, of all our stories that we want to cover. And every once in a while, we'll kind of just volley ideas to one another instead of taking them on ourselves. And this is the one, obviously, I sent to Cassie for her to cover because I thought she would do it well. And she's like, okay, yeah, perfect, so excited. And then she's like, I found a book and it's great. And, and here we go, like months ago. And so I'm like waiting, waiting. She's like, okay, I'm not doing that. I got a book. It's like 500 pages long. And it's like a fictional. It was a novel based on the point of view of Smokey Bear. And no, no like hate towards the author or anything like that. But it wasn't a non-fiction

historical account of Smokey Bear. She had written, she or here. I don't remember who the author is, but they had written the book based on the viewpoint of Smokey Bear and gave them like a voice and nature friends and made it a 500-page book about his life, which obviously is not a accurate historical account of what happened. So I eventually sat down to write this episode and I started reading the book. And right off that, I was like, hold on a second. What's happening here? I was like, oh my God, I bought a novel.

I didn't buy a non-fiction book. So then it got put on the back burner for a little bit while I decided and looked around for more information that I could get. And I didn't use a book for this, but I did use a lot of different resources, which we attached in the show notes, if you guys are interested and want to look into those. But it just feels like a good time to do this story too, because we're heading into summertime. We're going into fire season. Every year we see these devastating fires that are sweeping across, especially the Western part of the States. And right now, as we're recording this, Quebec has these severe fires that are happening

that are actually affecting the air quality here in Vermont and all over New England. The air quality index yesterday was like 135 or something. And in contrast, it's usually like 20. And it's hazy, it's smoky here. They had, they had information and warning out for certain groups, people with asthma, people doing strenuous outdoor activities to be safe. So we're already. in fire season. It's already started. And this just feels like a good way to get into it, talk about fire prevention and talk about Smokey the Bear, who has a, has an extended history. And I think people might be surprised that this iconic symbol has a dark history too. Well, you know I'm down for dark history. But also, Cassie is doing something a little different with the episode, which is really

exciting. I am. Towards the end. So we have our first, I don't want to say our first guest, because obviously we have a of guests, but our first, like, personal guest and Cassie's partner, Al, who is a wildland firefighter, will be coming on towards the end. And we're going to go over a lot of fire safety and how to be responsible recreating outdoors during fire season or the height of fire season. And so we're excited for that. But let's get introduced to Smokey, good old Smokey. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad we'll go into Smokey and Al will be on at the end of this episode after I tell the story. And he did, he, like you said, he worked in wildland fire for over 10 years. And he has so many stories. And he really knows the nitty gritty of being a wildland firefighter, which is super

interesting because this story about Smokey the Bear has a lot to do with Wildland Firefighters. So we're going to connect it all and it'll be really fun. Going in today's story about Smokey the Bear, he is an iconic symbol. As soon as I say, he's a bear with jeans on, a campaign hat, carrying a shovel and his finger pointed at you with the slogan, only you can prevent wildfires with the capital you. I can guarantee that every single person listening knows exactly the image that I'm talking about with Smokey the Bear. And that's because Smokey Bear has been ingrained in us since the very early years of our education. We learned about Smokey in the same classes we learned about stop, drop, and roll, and our kindergarten school fire drills. And I do have to say

that I thought that being on fire was going to be a way bigger problem than it has turned out to be in my life. I would agree. I think that's like those things, those memes that are going around right now that it's just so, like they get me every time. Like some wild fact, like, it's like when I learned that the sun will implode in 4.2 billion years. And it's like me as a seven year old. And they're having a mental breakdown. They're like, this is going to be a problem, isn't it? You know, it's just like, so concerned. It is. And I just, I think about learning stop, drop, and roll. Like, we practice those drills as kids. And you were kind of taught as a kid that you might be on fire pretty often in your life. So now as an adult, like, I'm glad I know that if I ever do catch on fire at some point in

my life. Of course, it's handy, but it's not as big of an issue. It almost felt like it was going to be a yearly issue that you would be caught on fire the way. But, It was presented to us. A somewhat regular occurrence, if you will. And Smokey the Bear was at the forefront of this. He was always the symbol in the classes. You always got, I remember having coloring books of Smokey the Bear, having these big signs. They would bring in teddy bears that were Smokey the Bear.

He was very, very prevalent in all fire prevention and safety throughout school. And I'm not the only person who remembers this because this goes back generations, because Smokey the Bear is the longest running public service ad campaign in United States history. Oh, wait. Do you want to know something? Hold on one second. So not only do I have a framed poster that I got with you, actually. I remember that. The smoke, the, be careful, there are babes in the woods, that one. I have that framed. It's on my wall in my room. But I also, I have no idea where I got this, but it's been on my bookshelf forever. Oh, it's a little Smokey the Bear. Like teddy bear. Yeah.

Like, does he have underwear that says Smokey? Sure, that. Well, it's a belt. Oh, it's a belt. I thought it was, I thought his pants were unzipped with his underwear showing for a second. Like, that's a naughty, smoky the bear. He's naughty. Yeah, but no, isn't that funny?

It's like, I have, and I have a shirt that says Smokey is all over my house. I'm like his number one fan, I guess. He's an iconic symbol from the U.S. Forest Service. Everyone, everyone's got a little bit of Smokey the Bear hanging around somewhere, I feel like. I'll send you a picture. Sure. So you can post it in our thing of him. Okay. Okay. Noddy, smoky. You all need to see it. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice.

Off campus, L. Every year after, The Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow Burns, Second Chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Well, Smokey the Bears' official birthday was August 9th, 1944. So he goes back a long time. I think he's a Leo, right? August 9th.

Yeah, he's a Leo. Yes. He's a fire sign. He's a fire sign. Well, that's probably why I love him. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I just got it.

Was that a dead joke? What a coincidence. Yeah, I think you just made a dad joke. Oh, man, my 30s are coming up. I mean, they're here. I mean, your birthday's tomorrow. It is. Holy shit.

I mean, holy shoot. Gosh, darn it. What's happening? I don't know. Anyways, birthday is August 9th, 1944, because this is when the US Forest Service and Ad Council agreed that this fictional bear would serve as a symbol for fire prevention. The first ad campaign in 1944 featured the slogan, Smokey says, Care will prevent nine out of ten forest fires and came with an image of Smokey pouring a bucket of water over campfire.

This image was created by Albert Stahl, who was later considered one of America's greatest animal illustrators, and was also known for the iconic way he was able to make all animals appear adorable, which is why Smokey the Bear is so adorable and people gravitate to him. Smokey was created to feel approachable, comforting, and gain the attention of everyone. Yeah, I mean, look at that face. So cute. As Daniel's like cradling her, Smokey the Bear, Teddy Bear. I love that.

He's now naughty Smokey. Noddy Smokey. So while the image of him could be deemed adorable and cute to advocate for fire prevention, the history behind why he was created is much darker. He was created as a direct result of paranoia that surrounded World War II. and the fear of Japanese soldiers attacking on U.S. soil. When World War II started in 1939, men around the country were leaving to fight. And as time passed, more and more male firefighters were joining the war effort,

leaving the U.S. short on firefighting personnel. I think it is important to also note that when men left to fight off in war, there were a lot of women who were taking their places and forming all women firefighting brigades. So there were firefighters and a lot of them were women and it's a super interesting story that I think that we need to revisit in another episode because this one's about smoky. But I do want to note that there's a lot of women firefighters that step forward and there's a big history of women that are total badasses that we'll come back to. But as the war raged on, there became real concern in the United States about attacks on the U.S. soil, especially after the attack on Pearl Harbor. And foresters were concerned that if the attack reached the western coast, gunned. unfired bombings could result in the ignition of catastrophic fires and there would be no way to put them out.

This fear was solidified in February 1942 when a Japanese submarine attacked the Elwood oil field a few miles north of Santa Barbara, California. They fired at the facility with bombs, but the shelling missed the target and resulted in no injuries and very little damage. However, the shelling sparked a national invasion panic and the fear of uncontrollable wildfire. were at the forefront of people's mind. Prior to this, firefighting had been more of a state-by-state problem, but this sparked the first national effort to fight forest fires. State Forestry Services and the Forest Service collaborated to create the Cooperative Forest Fire Prevention Program in 1942. The prevention program focused on ad campaigns to help prevent forest fires, and with the looming paranoia of fires sparking with the war, and the wildfires that were often human,

caused by U.S. civilians, they wanted to try and prevent any fires that they could. Their thought process was because they did not have enough resources to fight big fires. If they could educate the people of the United States on fire prevention and avoid fires caused by them, they would have a better chance to fight any fires caused by the war. They wanted citizens to know how wildfires would harm the war effort. And part of this was they actually put out a lot of, I want to say, almost propaganda saying that enemy forces were going to come in and use wildfires as a source of weapons. They were going to come in. They were going to start bombing our forests that they knew were dry. They knew we didn't have firefighters. And they were just going to essentially try and burn the country down.

And it was this propaganda and paranoia that was being spread nationwide. And it became a real fear for people because they were putting it out. And they put out ad campaigns that read things like our carelessness, their secret weapon, prevent forest fires. And then they would have these really scary depictions of Nazi and Japanese soldiers on these billboards and ad campaigns. So it was super scary. What a scare tactic. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like, I mean, going back to you in kindergarten, you thought you were going to be on fire constantly. Yeah. Stop, drop and roll. It was a very real fear. Yeah, look at this. Oh, what in the world? It's so scary. I'll post it on Instagram so everyone can see it. and on our and on Patreon and stuff.

But it was so scary the ad campaigns that they were running to scare people. So of course, with these scare tactics, paranoia swept the nation about how wildfires would help the U.S. lose the war. Ironically, though, the only real enemy attempts to burn U.S. forests turned out to be complete failures. So they put out all of this, all these ad campaigns and worried about these wildfires, and then it never happened. I mean, there were wildfires, but they weren't generally caused by the war. And something that I learned about this, which I didn't know, and many of you listening may or may not have heard this before.

But Smokey the Bear actually wasn't the first fire prevention campaign animal. Do you have any guess on who was the first? Or do you know? I don't know. Okay. No, I don't. Based on your facial expression, I feel like it's something very bizarre. Like, I wouldn't guess.

It's not super bizarre. It's a cuddly animal. It was in 1942, Disney's Bambi was released, and Walt Disney actually loaned the Bambi characters for the government to use for their advertisements for a full year. Oh, I was going to say a badger, and I don't know why. No. Okay. No, but they used the characters from the movie Bambi to post all of these new ad campaigns,

and a lot of them said, please, Mr. Don't Be careless, prevent forest fires, great danger than ever. greater danger than ever. And it had all the Bambi characters on their ad campaigns. That's interesting because I feel like my post, it's so weird. Like that poster is literally in front of my face in my bedroom. But I feel like, because it's obviously smoky and it says, be careful, there are babes in the woods and there's other woodland creatures around him. And I'm pretty sure, I mean, they're not, like that is very Bambi. Like you can tell like the skunk, like the deer and the rabbit are all the characters from the movie versus just woodland creatures in general. But that poster kind of reminds me of elements of the one I have. Well, I've seen and I've obviously for this episode been researching a lot of

Smokey the Bear ad campaigns and slogans and whatever. And they do incorporate a lot of woodland creatures and a lot of them, even if they're not the exact same style, a lot of them do incorporate what looks like would have been in Bambi. Right. Yeah. So I think it does go back to those first ad campaigns, which I had never realized before. But Walt Disney had only loaned these characters for about a year. So after that, they did need to find a new symbol. I don't know why. A whole on a minute. Walt Disney doesn't own deer. He owns the, I think he owned, well, he kind of did because these characters were drawn by his people and the animations were from him. But somebody could have drawn another deer. I guess. I don't know if they had like rules against it or laws or whatever, but

Well, Desi's like, sorry, you can't use any of these animals. He's like, I don't like fire prevention anymore. Unless you pay me a lot. Interesting. Okay. Well, basically, after that, they wanted to continue the campaign and even after the war. So the war happened. We had all of the scare tactic campaigns and Smokey, the bear, and all of these campaigns were starting.

But even after the war, it continued. And Smokey was created after Bambi. And Smokey has had many slogans over the area. So you see them all on different posters. They have different sayings. But there are a couple that stand out the most as the biggest ones. The first one that comes to mind that it was changed to was the one that said, remember, only you can prevent forest fires. But that was later amended in 1947 to only you can prevent wildfires. They changed that wording from forest fires to wildfires in response to large wildfires that were happening in other places. than forest. So for example, grasslands were on fire and they wanted to include all of that. And they also wanted to change the wording because they wanted the fires not to include prescribed burns. They were promoting that they do do controlled burns and prescribed burns and how those are very important. So they wanted to change the wording to wildfires instead of forest fires because there are forest fires that are controlled and needed. While Smokey was created as a fictional character and

1944, he became a real living symbol in 1950 when a five-pound, three-month-old American black bear was found and rescued after being burned in a wildfire in Lincoln National Forest. Lincoln National Forest is located in southern New Mexico east of White Sance National Park and is comprised of 1.1 million acres or 445,000 hectares of protected wilderness. It's home to three major mountain ranges, the Sacramento, Guadalupe, and Capitan ranges. The National Forest is used for prevention, recreation, and an important timber resource. The fire that the real smoky was rescued from was a human-caused forest fire that engulfed 17,000 acres or 69 square kilometers of forest within the Capitan mountain range within the National Forest. It was named the Capitan Gap Fire. This fire started

on May 4th, 1950, when someone very carelessly threw their lit cigarette on the ground. Following the spark of the fire, 70 mile per hour winds that hit the area allowed the fire to travel so far and stay ablaze for 28 whole days. Wow, that's intense. It's a big fire. When the fire was first spotted from a fire tower near Alamagordo, Wildland firefighters were sent out in attempts to put it out. Unfortunately, because of these really strong winds, the fire spread very quickly and more crews had to be called in. Crews were called in from both all over New Mexico and from Texas. One of the crews that arrived were the Taos Pueblo Snowball Crew.

They were a group of 25 volunteers from a rural native Pueblo tribe that had only ever served on one other fire only two months prior to this one. So not a lot of experience. The Lincoln National Forest had called the Carson National Forest Supervisor Office on May 5th requesting urgent assistance in fighting the wildfire that had broken out in Capitan Mountains. Because there were no phones to communicate this urgent message to the group, the only way to contact them was through the war chief, who was the quote unquote the village crier or the person who relayed important announcements to the village. And this was a very rural village. It was

difficult to get in communication. So what he did is he stood above the mountains of the town and he cried out as loudly as he could in native Pueblo people's Tawa language, summoning all available firefighters to report to the village center immediately. They heard the calls and they listened. And 25 of them showed up in town and they boarded an old school bus and headed south towards the fires. When they arrived, they hiked up an established fire line to relieve a crew of U.S. Army soldiers who had been working the fire lines for the Los Tablos fire. This fire was an adjoining fire to the Capitone Gap fire.

Okay. So the fire at this point has jumped around and has jumped to other little sections and created separate fires. So they originally go to this fire first. The Snowballs crew job was when they arrived was to extend the fireline perimeter around the ongoing fire. This is done in wildfire fighting by cutting down trees and digging trenches in the fire's path in an attempt to remove anything that could fuel the fire. So basically they cut down. trees, they dig up all this dirt, so by the time the fire gets to these locations, there's

nothing else to burn on. And they eventually just die out there. It was also their job to stay on patrol for any spot fires and hot spots. They worked diligently throughout the whole night. No sleep, just up all night. By the late morning of May 6th, the fire was mostly under control. By early afternoon, the snowballs began to gather their gear to make their journey back to Tau's when another fire alarm came through. The El Capitan Gap fire was en route to directly hit where they were. While they were able to manage the Los Tablos fire, the Capitaine Gap fire had become extremely dangerous.

It had been burning in higher elevations and was actively engulfing Douglas Furs, White Furs, and Aspins throughout the region. It was moving rapidly and directly through homes of elk, big horn sheep, American black bears, and a lot more. The snowballs barely had a break before. they were back out creating fire lines to try to stop it from advancing further. But on May 8th, the winds had become so strong that the fire lines weren't able to contain the fires from jumping to other trees. And the crews out there were ordered to take shelter. They were out there and this

fire had gotten so close in proximity and was moving so fast that there was no way out at this point. And since there were no fire shelters established here in 1950, their only option was to take shelter in a narrow canyon where a recent rock slide had just happened. The snowballs were facing direct fire with nowhere to escape to, and their crew boss ordered them to lie face down in the rock slide and burrow their faces into the cooler air of rock crevices that they could find. Sure enough, shortly after every member of the crew managed to burrow their faces into the rock slide, the fire came raging through, burning above them and singeing their clothes and burning their hair. They had no other option than to wait it out.

The fire burned over them for several minutes before it passed through. When it passed, they all looked up and accounted for each other. Every one of them survived the burnover with only minor burns and some smoke inhalation. That's incredible, actually. And terrifying. Yeah. I know. This is like giving me the, you covered it so long ago, but the Idaho panhandle story that you did.

Mm-hmm. Like it's just, I mean, obviously. we see the results. A lot of us are seeing the results of wildfires right now. Um, you know, in Washington, Ian and I saw them all the time. It was so hazy during the summer. Like, you know, it was just like the whole West is on fire. Now it's also like that air quality is terrible. Like in New England, it's, you know, you're seeing the effects too. But it's a different story to like be in it and to be directly involved and just trapped. And there's nothing you can do. And even, even, even seeing a fire from afar too. It's like, oof, like that's scary, but then having it be right on top of you.

Burning on top of you. And all you can do is lay there. The only oxygen that's there is closest to the ground. You can't, you can't stand up. There's fire above you. You're actively burning. You can feel yourself burning. And they did suffer some burns too. So you're sitting there. You're actively burning. And there's nothing you can do. And you said within a couple minutes it passed, but those minutes must have seemed like an eternity. So long. And I would also like to point out that this native group of volunteers are volunteers. They're not being paid. They're not out there for that. They're out there because they're trying to save an area that they love and care about. And they are very actively risking their lives. As they hiked out, they came across fellow fire crews and they were amazed that everyone was

actually alive. They had all been able to successfully take shelter. It was here that they learned of By a small baby bear, a military crew had come across and had attempted to save. But the spare they found had scratched some of the men pretty badly and they had continued moving. The crews relayed that they would actually be walking right by the area it was found and to try and rescue it if they could. Sure enough, further up near a rock outcrop where they had taken refuge themselves from the fire, they heard the sounds of whining and crying. They immediately recognized it as a cub. Shortly after, they saw the little American black bear cub scurrying through freshly burned

vegetation. Its fur was charred with burned skin exposed. All four of his paws were burned and blistering from walking on hot ground. With gloves on, one of the crew members attempted to pick it up, but it was lashing out trying to bite and scratch him and he put it down. They had a lot more task to complete that night, and they decided they had to leave it behind. They were also aware that this was a protected reserve and wildlife was supposed to be left alone. And the U.S. Forest Service actually had fines if you did touch wildlife of about $300. And this was in the 1950s. So that's a lot of money. So that was one thing that they were keeping in consideration. They were like, hey, we want to save this bear, but it's fighting us. And we might actually get in trouble for doing it. So originally,

they decided to leave the cup behind. But this cub didn't have a mom anymore. So it started trying to follow them. Unfortunately, it couldn't keep up with their pace because of its injuries. And eventually fall behind. However, several other crews came across and encountered the bear as well. And every crew was trying to save it. Several members were even bit by this bear. And with crew member after crew member attempting to save this little five-pound feisty cub, eventually one of the fire crew members, which I'm uncertain about who exactly found it because there's several versions of what happened. But they did catch the cub and they did bring it to safety. They originally named him hot foot teddy because he looked like a little teddy bear and his feet were badly burned.

Shortly after that, they changed his name to Smokey after the iconic symbol, Smokey the bear. Hot foot teddy and, God, what did you just do, Salt Creek Sam? Salt Creek Sam. I know, I'm bringing all the cute little babies. Really, I know. I can't, I mean the image of the little baby trying to follow them and then like falling behind and being hurt. And I can only imagine, number one, he's a wild animal. course he's going to be feisty and he's scared, but he's probably lashing out because he's so painful. I mean, burns are incredibly painful. And if he's burned on his body and all of the pads of his feet, like I could only imagine the just like disorientation and the panic and fear. And it's

probably the first time he's ever seen a person too. Right. His mom's gone. It's like, because he's way out here in the middle of the forest. Well, the firefighters do bring him back and they presented him to the New Mexico game warden, who realized very quickly the extent of the cub's injuries and that he needed to be addressed by a veterinarian. So the cub was very quickly flown out to Santa Fe for treatment. After the treatment and what the veterinarian decided needed to be done, he was actually given back to the game warden to care for and to nurse back to health. So the game warden took care of this cub for quite a bit along with his daughter, who was just a little girl. I don't know how old she was, but there's pictures of them together and it's really cute.

It's just this little girl with this little baby cub and she's like helping him. him, nurse him back. But of course, bears get big. He's a cub at this point. He's just a little, but eventually he started getting bigger. He was a lot more healthy. And when he was healthy enough, he was sent to live at the National Zoo in Washington, D.C. News of his rescue and these photos of him with a little girl and with the Forest Service touch hearts across the nation, and his story was broadcasted nationwide. It wasn't long before he became a dedicated symbol for the Conservation and Wildlife Prevention Publicity Program. People around the country started mailing gifts to the zoo for Smokie. They received hundreds of jars of honey for Smoky and people wrote in so many letters that they

actually gave him his own address and zip code that you could write into Smoky. This is really cute, but also my heart can't help but feel bad for like, I just have this picture of the National Zoo and just other animals in their enclosures and just like, you know, like their hands pressed up against the But what about me? Like, I'm special too. Where's my attention? Where's my honey and zip coat? You know what I mean?

It's sad. Yeah, it is sad. And when you think about it, he did end. He was in a zoo, which obviously a lot of people have mixed feelings. So I had zoos, me, myself included. But he was a case where he couldn't be put back in the wild one because he had been injured so badly. But also because he had essentially lived the first few months of his life.

life without a mom. He had no idea how to be a bear and he was habituized to people at that point. So he ends up in the zoo and thousands of people were visiting him. And the zoo did take very good care of him. He did it seem like he became kind of a spectacle at points where he was Smoky the Bear and go see him and he became like this attraction and there is a lot that goes into that as well. But he did live to be 26 years old. When he died in 1976, his remains were flown back to his original home in Capitan New Mexico to be buried at the Smokey Bear Historical Park that was actually created that year to honor Smokey Bear. So now there's a park specifically for him. Today, you can still visit the park where they educate on Smoky's history, along with visiting exhibits about forest health,

wildfires, and science of fire ecology and the history of fire prevention. You can also visit Smokey Bear's final resting place that also features an outdoor amphitheater for the park's educational programs. Inside of this park, they also have a memorial for firefighters who have lost their lives while fighting fires in New Mexico. The Wildland Fallen Firefighter Memorial honors more than 30 wildland firefighters and was installed on May 4th, 2019, in the gardens of the park. Matt Glenn created a bronze statue of a Wildland firefighter on one knee, bowing his head in recognition of their loss. Matt Glenn is also the creator of other Wildland memorials, including the bronze statue in Prescott, Arizona that honors the 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shots who perished during the 2013

Yarnel Hillfire. And that's that iconic, I mean, I say iconic movie because it was so devastating, but I can't, I can't remember. It's probably called Granite Mountain Hot Shots, but there was a movie about it where only one person on the whole 20 person crew survived. Yeah, I'm not familiar with it. You're not, because it has that actor that you love in it. Um, what? What's his name? I'm thinking of a, the only hot shot movie I'm thinking of, I watched on a plane and it had Angelina Jolie in it. No, it has Miles Teller in it. Oh. Only the Brave is what it's called.

It has Miles Teller in it. And it's the true story of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots. It is a really good movie that just ruins your life when you watch it. It's so sad. But it's also, I mean, it's a great movie. We're talking about fire prevention and what happens with fires. I would say, if you haven't seen it yet, you should totally go watch it. I feel like I haven't seen this.

That is so surprising to me. It was such a big movie when it first came out. Yeah, I really don't recall ever seeing this. What's the other one? You should watch it because you would like it. And Al has actually been to their memorial. He's hiked out to their memorial before. You need to add to the movie list now on our website, that movie.

Yeah, I can't just have Predators and Titanic on there anymore. No. Yeah, but you should watch it. Yeah. Yeah, this, the movie with Angelina Jolie is obviously completely different. It's called Those Who Wish Me Dead. Have you seen that one? I think I have seen that.

Yeah. That's not a true story though, is it? I don't believe so, no. Yeah, only The Brave is a true story of the Hotchot Cruise. Well, I'll watch it. I'll put it on the list because I have been waiting for a good movie to come across my desk, as they say. So I'll definitely watch it. Yeah.

Well, it's very sad and it's very good. I highly recommend. We'll do. Going into some of the statistics about wildfires, from 2013 to 2022, there have been an average of 61,410 wildfires each year, with an average of 7.2 million acres impacted annually. In 2022, 68,98 wildfires burned across 7.6 million acres. Wildfires often occur in the drier seasons of the summer months and have several reasons they are started. Lightning is a major cause of wildfires, but according to the National Park Service website, nearly 85% of wildfires in the United States are actually caused by people. This happens in a result to campfires being left unattended or ignited irresponsibly,

the burning of debris, equipment use and malfunctions, negligently discarding cigarettes, like in this story that I told today, and also intentional acts of arson, which we have been seeing, I feel like more frequently in the past few years. Between the years 1990 to 2019, 502 firefighters were killed while attempting to control these. As we head into fire season this year, it is more important than ever to do our own part in preventing wildfires because of the devastating effects it has both on nature and human lives. Remember when you're out there, it is important to check weather and drought conditions in your area you are in, check for firebans and follow them accordingly.

If a campfire is permitted in your area, you still need to be safe about it. and be sure to only have them in open locations far from anything flammable. Do not leave any campfires until they are completely cold. Make sure you douse them and they're not still smoldering. It's also important to note that if you are off-roading, avoid dry grass. The heat from your vehicles can actually spark a grassland fire. Be conscious of any equipment you are using and avoid things that can create sparks when you are in an area with firebans.

There are several types of fire crews that are employed to combat these fires. One of those types are Hot Shot crews. Hotshot crews are typically made up of 20 experienced professional firefighters who specialize in wildfire. They are some of the most highly trained wildland firefighters there are, as they are trained and equipped to work in remote areas for extended periods of time with a very minimal logistical support. They are required to carry heavy packs and equipment to hike out into the most remote areas of the forest, to control fire lines, initiate control burns and suppress fires. They serve as an integral force and saving our lands from the devastation these wildfires can cause. And as we mentioned in the very beginning of this episode, I happened to have a direct connection to a member or an old member of a hot shot crew. My partner, Al, worked on hotshot crews around the country and in other parts of the world for over 10 years. He has a lot of inside knowledge on how fire crews work and the devastation that fires can cause. So I did think that for this episode, because we're talking about wildfires and fire prevention and

the importance of these fire crews, I thought it would be really fun to bring him on to finish this episode out. Yeah, let's get him in here. Yeah, let's talk to him. It's time. Hi, Al, welcome to our podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for finally joining us. Yeah, it's about time. It's about time. Our very first. I've been waiting to be invited for so long. No, he's like, it's been 84 years. The Titanic meme. It's finally happening. You're finally here.

You're here and you're perfect for this episode. You're our very first in-person guest. Very cool. Yeah, we've never actually interviewed someone who is with us at the same time. It's always been via Zoom. Well, I live with you. Yeah, that's true. You do.

So it works out for all of us. Great. It's helpful. Yep, it's my day off. Back to work tomorrow. It's all worked out. Working right now. I'm working right now.

Yeah. For free. For free, yeah. Yeah. It says volunteer-based. Yeah. Volunteer-based firefighting right now. Well, we have a bunch of questions for you because we did a whole episode today.

I didn't join us for when we recorded the episode, but we did a whole episode today based on fire safety. I already told you about it before we got on here. But we had a bunch of questions for you because as I told our audience, you worked on Hotschot crews for a very long time. Yes, I did. Yeah. And we wanted to hear about it more. We wanted to know about your career when you started what you did. Okay.

I started on a not a hotshot crew, but it's called a Type 2IA crew. It's a crew that's a little less qualified than a hot shot crew. And that was back in 2011. This was like a contract crew. And they're pretty common. They're all around the West. I did two seasons on a contract crew and got my, I guess, my foot in the door. kind of learned the basics, I suppose. It's definitely a great way to start. And a lot of people do

start their wildland career on a contract crew, or they do get lucky and have their first season on a hot shot crew. But yeah, two seasons on a contract crew in southern Oregon. And then found myself in South Lake Tahoe in 2013 through 2014, working for the Tahoe Douglas Fire District for a crew, a type 2IA crew called Zephyr. And pretty, pretty, busy. That's a 30-person crew. It's a municipal crew. So we work hand-in-hand with structure firefighters. And those, we trained together. So we were working and training with wildland tactics throughout the summer. So yeah, in 2013 and 2014, so when I got my hands on a chainsaw. So that's kind of like where it all, we're all like the fun started, I suppose,

and throughout the entire rest of my career, a chainsaw was always on my shoulder. But yeah, in Tahoe, there's some heavy timber. There's those big And Dundrosas and Douglas Furs, and that's how that crew taught me kind of how to fall those trees safely properly. And I guess from then on, I was basing my wildland career off motorcycle trips, and I wanted to go to Alaska. And I went to Alaska in 2015, Fairbanks to another type 2A crew for the state of Alaska, Department of Natural Resources, a division of forestry for a crew called White Mountain. And that's the season. I probably worked the most. I think. think it was like 1,200 hours or 1,300 hours of overtime in a span of like six or seven months.

Great season. Great people. First time in Alaska in 2015. And then after that, I stayed in Alaska for three more years for a get on a hotshot crew finally. That was a huge goal to get on a hot shot crew. What makes a hot shot crew different from the crew you were on? It is qualifications. So the senior firefighters, the squad bosses, they will have certain qualls to, and they have to hold those

qualls to have them a type 1 status. So there's type 2 crews and type 1 crews. And type 1 crews are hotshot crews. So yeah, Pioneer Peak Hotshots up in Palmer, Alaska, just 45 minutes north of Anchorage. Three seasons, 2016 through 2018. Same deal as White Mountain, a thousand plus hours overtime, a lot of work, a lot of leadership, very good crew. In between 2016 and 2017, I went to Australia and did a season down there. So I had back to back to back seasons from 2016 and 2017. And then found myself back in Utah, worked for a hotshot crew in Utah, all to hotshots. And then after that, tried smoke jumping. Got severely injured smoke jumping, spent some time in the hospital and kind of figured it out back on another hot shot crew that season.

And then found myself here in Vermont, structured firefighting. Yeah, here you are. Yeah. What a journey. I know, yeah. What a journey. Yeah, it's like a job interview. Yeah, tell us your entire resume for the best 10 years.

That's pretty much what I'd say in every job interview. A little less, but, you know, they want to hear a little bit. A little more condensed. Yeah. Well, you kind of already outlined what your schedule was like, but can you tell us a little bit about your duties and what your responsibilities were? Okay. Yeah. Duties.

Sure. Well, if we're not on a fire, we work 40 hours a week and we'll do project work, which means like fuel mitigation, limming up trees and creating a buffer between cities or the towns that we live in, we work in. What does that mean limbing up trees? Limbing the limbs off of trees, branches, you know, with a chainsaw. And we won't jack straw all those limbs. We'll put them in a nice neat pile, ready to dry out and burn in the winter, prescribed burning. Why is prescribed burning important?

Why is it important? Yeah. Why do you guys do it? When the conditions are right, it can prevent an extreme, like, higher behavior in those areas because we mainly don't want to have extreme fire behavior in big towns. Yeah. It's okay. I mean, it's natural. It's okay to have it out in deep forest. You know, we kind of let that burn and kind of control it by big road systems. I think that's a hard line for some people is people think all fire is bad and all fire is not bad. I think that's a common

misconception because we do look at prescribed burns. And when you look in the communities and things. I've seen a lot of posts of, well, why are we doing a prescribed burn? You're burning down the forest. You're burning down these healthy trees. Why would you do that? And there is a reason behind it because when the fires, it's fuel for fires, right? Sure. Well, it's easy. You just go to your local fire district and ask those questions and they'll give you those solid answers. And there's that also the resource, your phone, just Google, why? Why are they doing this? And prescribed fires usually will have signs in the side of the road, like prescribed burning in progress or something along those lines.

And it's kind of like, don't call 911 because dispatch is already backed up. You know, that'll happens a lot regardless. But yeah, I guess it's definitely important. And kind of like I was saying, we do project work. We'll do that when there's no fires to work. It's very important. It's boring. It's tedious.

We do it as part of our job. And when there is a fire, kind of going back to the schedule, I guess. We have a two hour callback. So 24 hours a day through the entire fire season. We have two hours. We get the fire call. Go to the fire. station, the base, and then we mob out, we go to wherever our resource order sends us, and then

travel day, work for 14 days, 16 hours straight, sleep for 8 hours, and then we get like two, two and a half days off. Where do you sleep while you're out for two weeks straight? Are we sleep in tents? If it's too buggy, we'll sleep in a tent. If it's not buggy, we'll sleep on a sleeping bag. So you're basically camping for two weeks at a time. Yeah, no showers.

Typically no showers. No. No. Oh. There's like, the smoke kind of hides the smell of B.O. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. When it's not a smoky fire, then it's a stinky fire for sure.

Yeah. Type 1 fires. Type 1 fires, they have big incident command post. It's a big field. Like they'll have, well, they have farmers markets. They'll kind of like have, we'll take over that field and make it to a ICP. And they'll have showers there. They'll have laundry, catered food.

and whatnot. And yeah. What kind of catered food do you get? Type 1 fires, they'll be pretty good, good caterers. We'll have like steaks. Ooh. You know, big proteins. They'll try to give us 2,000 calories per meal.

Well, when you're out on these fires, you hike pretty far out into the wilderness, right? Yeah. Long days. Some days are shorter than others. Some days are gnarly, yeah. Like you can look at 10-mile days, 20-mile days sometimes. You carry a lot of gear with you, too, right? right? Yep. At least 50 pounds. Wow. That's her backpack. And then the chainsaw is like 20. So get used to

carrying around 90 pounds on your back. It's like a person. 75. A small person. Yeah. Get used to it. You walk with a little limp. Yeah, I could imagine. Well, going back to the actual types of fires that you've been involved with, Cassie mentioned she was doing some statistics at the end of her story today. And she mentioned, that the National Park Service, according to them, 85%, give or take of wildfires, are caused by humans. Are there any notable fires you remember of human caused, especially is what I'm interested in, any, like, weird, like, gender reveal stories gone wrong, things like that. I've never, I guess I saw that on internet, but there's arsonists out there.

2014, the Kingfire in South Lake Tahoe, I guess it was west of South Lake Tahoe. that was an arson fire and it was huge. It was 100,000 acres plus extreme fire conditions. And somehow there's people out there that the fire investigators, they just look for suspicious activity and they see where cars are coming from. Like, why is this car coming from there? And they have it all figured out, but they figured it was an arson fire. And there's so many more than that.

That number 85% that seems pretty high just from not looking on the statistics. and, you know, I just work. I don't know. The lightning strikes, I was telling you today, the technology out there, we can track lightning strikes. So when there's dry lightning out there, the people in dispatch office, they can see how many lightning strikes and use radar and the satellites to see when there's a start, you know, and that's typically how they mob smoke jumpers and hotshot crews to a certain area when the fire is small to control it. Basically, mostly Alaska, those fires start from lightning strikes. I'm sure, I guess there's arsonists out there everywhere. Same with structure. People light buildings on fire because they're just screwed up in the head.

It's a, it's an awful thing because they destroy people's homes. They kill people. You were telling me, too, that you've been to fires where you've seen people who have lost their homes. Yes. Yes. In Alaska, big, big fires. Late night, I think we did. We got the call to show up at the fire station at like 4 a.m. And we get to this fire at 6. And it's, because in Alaska in the summertime, the sun's up always. So the fire conditions are 24 hours a day. Relative humidity drops, but the conditions are pretty high throughout the night and whatnot.

But this fire just south of Taakitna, we were getting transported by boat. And we get to this area and there's a house totally burnt down. And we're just doing our job. and chinking some line using the chainsaws and wrapping the fire around that area. And then this guy shows up. He's the owner of this house. He just burnt down. Emotions weren't what you would expect from someone that just lost everything.

He was pretty calm and thankful for us being there. But it was surreal. You know, you didn't want to, like, you didn't want to step on his toes or kind of just let him do his thing. It's his property. It's pretty personal. Like, we're just there to work, but it's someone's property. Yeah, someone just lost everything. Yeah.

It's extreme. Well, today's episode, we covered a story that was based around wildland firefighters finding a bear in the woods, smoking the bear. Yeah. When you were out there, did you ever have any experiences where you had to save wildlife or other animals? Yes. We were on a lightning fire in Pocatello, Idaho. And Pocatello is like farm country, so there's a lot of cattle out there. And I remember we were doing a prescribed or just a backburn to the existing fire.

And working with the ranchers and the cowboys, they opened the gate. And we had like a human corral to corral like hundreds and hundreds of cattle to the road, to the trailers to fill them up. And it was a success. You know, the fire was within a mile away. So it would have wasted them for sure. After that was done, we definitely saw a calf that was stuck between the barbed wire fence, about 100 feet of desert and then the road. So we were following them, walking up, you know, softly and cut the barbed wire fence to have him run out.

But he couldn't figure it out. He kept running. And it took about 45 minutes and we had to go back to work. So unknown on little baby calf. That's sad. Yeah, it is sad. I've seen cattle burnt over in Utah. It's a quiet moment, I suppose.

There were some stray dogs in Alaska that we kind of just keep at the village, make sure someone just watches them. And I remember in the Klamath, the Klamath is like a gnarly area in Northern Ket California, Klanbeth National Forest. Dogs that had collars were just following us up the fire, a dozer line. And there's a picture of my crew with this giant or two giant dogs just hanging out with us because we were safety. That's what they thought. But I think we got a hold of some animal resource to take care of it. You know, frogs, bugs, they all kind of just figure it out. They get away from the fires. And animals could have it have instincts. You know, they just like,

they sense the danger. They get away. Yeah. They're smart. They're smarter than us. They have a figured out. They know. Yeah. Cattle are dumb. They don't need their iPhones. Cattle are dumb. Yeah. Well, you clearly have an extensive history in wildland firefighting and you mentioned that you're currently in structure fire as of now. So how is your role changed up a bit other than hiking and camping for your job? It definitely has changed. The camaraderie is the same. The brotherhood, the sisterhood is the same, you know, the shit talking is always going to be there. The egos are going to be there. Thankfully, my fire department is good on fitness. We have a fitness test, just like the hot shot cruise. We do the mile and a half. It's not as fast as the hot shot cruise, but we still...

They're listening like, hey. I don't know. Whatever. I've told them. But now, instead of just focusing on like a chainsaw on my shoulder, I mean, my head, you can put your head down and just go to work all day for 16 hours. Now I'm like 3 a.m. dead asleep, wake up. And then within five minutes, I'm out of structure fire. Or within five minutes, I'm at a psych patient that needs a lot of attention. I'm at a seizure patient. It's infants, you know, kids, kids with mothers that are screaming.

That's the difference. It's pretty big. It's 24-hour shift. It's not a 16-hour shift anymore. Sleep is minimal. Like in wildland, I would get eight hours of sleep. I sleep my best. I'd sleep better than in bed because I'm just, I worked myself to sleep. Now it's like if we're getting, you know, 24 calls in a day is a lot. That's, that's a lot.

That's 24 reports I have to write reports. The calls take 45 minutes. If we're just transporting to the hospital, reports take a half an hour. And there's not much time to like just maybe go to the gym and get and like blow off some steam. So I guess that's the difference, you know. But like I said, the camaraderie is the same. Everyone's there for each other. Positive mental attitude. Everyone tries to strive by having that. You know, the negative people, we try to make them, you know, we can, we can tell when someone's having a down day. Happens to me. Happens to everybody.

And that goes with wildland and structure. Yeah. So it sounds like a lot of the changes that you have now are more you work with a lot of people now versus Wildland. Yeah. Yeah. Like Wildland, I was the medic on the crew. I was the EMT basic. And that's just being an EMT for my guys and the girls.

And that's like, you know, if someone cuts their foot bad enough, we're calling a medevac. We're not transported. When you're out in the middle. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess you can't hike out of. We got to build a LZ, a landing zone for the helicopter, or it's already built, probably. And then I just, you know, bandage up the foot or whatever is injured and then send them off the helicopter.

And those are people I know. Like, I have relationships with these, my crew or firefighters that are on the fire with me. Mm-hmm. Same mentality. Yeah, it's a different dynamic than what you have for. I love it. I absolutely love it. Now I'm going to advance DMT and going to paramedic school.

in September. I'm like almost forcing myself to love it because a lot of work, but I wouldn't do anything else for sure. Well, you're really talking it up. And I mean, as far as like just even what Cassie has told me and just what I've learned about you over the years that I've known you is that you're essentially a workaholic. You love, you're always busy. You're going to school. You're bettering yourself, furthering yourself in your career. So for those who may be, listening who either are interested in any of the lines of work that you have gotten into. What is your advice for someone just starting out? Great question. First step. Well, I guess when I was in high school, I wanted to become a firefighter.

I knew I had to go to the gym. It's time to step it up and get in shape. And that is probably the most important to make things easier. It's good for your mental health. It'll make things easier carrying that weight on your back. If you're the weakest guy on the crew, that means the crew is is as slow as you. So you want to stand out. You want to be that Sawyer that everyone looks at. And you'll get to that level. It's just, that's just what they teach you. But if you're in the best shape, it just helps out in advance. How do you get into Wildland though? Like what is the, what is the process to get there? For an Eastcoaster? Yeah, for anyone. Very hard. Very hard. I had no idea. So like, no one, none of my family or friends on the East Coast had anything to deal with Wildland.

But thankfully, I figured it out in 10 years of working. USAjobs.gov is you just type in, you know, wildland firefighting, fire technician, smoke jumper, hot shot crew. And that will pop up. It's a government job, government agency, Forest Service, BLM, Bureau of Land Management. And then you just kind of like check the boxes. And there's like an algorithm, a computer reads your resume. So you have to have your resume, like, dialed. And the boxes that you check are like the Forest Service station.

is the BLM stations that you're choosing. And if you choose Pocatello or Boise, Idaho, you can contact their fire district center and get a hold of the crew boss, the superintendent of the hot shot crew or the crew. And you call them nonstop. You tell them your workout schedule and you tell them you're super interested.

Because if you just shoot them a application with no voice behind the application, let us look right by it. They want someone that's eager and wants the job. What kind of qualifications are they looking for? Like, do you need to have certifications or anything before you're applying for these jobs or do they teach you as a on working basis? So the red card, you can go get your red card.

What's that? It's called S classes. So like S-190, S-180, and there's two other like S's in there. But they're FEMA classes, essentially. But they get taught by an instructor and that's how you get your red card. That's like you are qualified to be a wildland firefighter. I know there's crews out there that'll hire you without it and they'll teach you it in-house. So it kind of depends on where you're looking.

Yeah. So that's just someone with no experience. When you have experience and you're trying to go on a hot shot crew, they want to see that you've had a chainsaw on your shoulders, your shoulder for a while. They also want to know your workout regiment. So like I said, it's pretty important, you know, running. You're not running in the wildland, but it's like, it's so good for your cardio. But you're hiking out so far. And you're hiking in conditions where I imagine you must be hiking in places where there's significant smoke from the fires. Of course. So you need to be in better shape to be able to operate under the. those conditions. Sure, sure. Yeah, running and then a rucking. So, like, hiking with a bunch of weight in your pack. Mm-hmm.

That's important. For smoke jumping, I've learned that they want a minimum of four seasons on a hot shot crew with a jane saw on your shoulder. Yes. So that's kind of the... That's like the peak. And I, you know, that's what I wanted. I got there.

Just got injured. But I got in with Fairbanks, Smokejumpers or Alaska Smokejumpers. Yeah, it's a process. For sure. It's a process. It sounds like it. Interview process is a little stressful, too. You were in it for a really long time.

You did it for... It was over, over a decade? Or just under? I did 10 years, but 11 seasons because I did the Australia one. Oh, right, right. Yeah. Well, because we're talking about fire and we're talking about wildland fire and everything. We'd also like to talk about fire prevention since we're in fire season now.

Sure. What are some advice? Because we see a lot where people are talking about campfires and cigarettes that can go awry and things like that. You've seen the devastation from fires firsthand. What is your advice to people going out? this summer to recreate safely during fire season. Well, thankfully, it's all over the news, the fire conditions, you know.

Mostly out west, you'll see those signs that say like low fire danger, moderate, high, or extreme. Those are very accurate. There's someone that goes out there and puts that dial on the right one. It's not just going to stay on high fire danger all summer long, you know. I've actually seen some of those signs that show the RH, the relative humidity. And when that's in the 20s, low 20s, teens, single digits, that's like prime conditions to burn. So just heads up on that, I suppose, when you're having your campfire when you're camping. I mean, some days there's a fire ban.

You can't even have a campfire. But if you're going to risk it or if you're just going to have a fire, you got to make sure it's a proper fire pit. Or if you're making one yourself, you know, gather some rocks, clear out the brush around it, open spot, you know, under a canopy of trees. And then don't leave the fire by itself. It's a windy night and the RHs are low. Wind can take an ember and spark up a spot fire. And then you're in trouble. And all of a sudden, the fire is a thousand acres and you are in jail.

You know, that can happen. Yeah. I guess that's about right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we definitely don't want people going to jail and we want people to be safe and having fun out there. But we're already seeing wildfires. I mean, we're talking there's Quebec is already on fire.

The smoke is here in Vermont right now. Of course, we're going into fire season. And it's, we're recording this early June, but it's coming out mid-June. And I'm sure we'll see more fires starting then. So just being safe and making sure everyone's good while, while you're out there. Yeah. Stay safe. Have fun.

Look good. Well, that's great advice to end on, I think. Cool. Well, thanks, Al, for your time and talking to everyone about fire safety and lending some of your experience and sharing some of your story. And you should come on again at some point. Yes. I love that.

Come hang out with us. Let's talk about motorcycles next. Okay. We'll try and figure out a way to incorporate motorcycles and national parks next time. I've been to plenty of national parks at the motorcycle. That's true. Yeah. We rode in one in Joshua Tree.

Yes. That was fun. Yeah. Good coffee. Joshua Tree. Good coffee. I made it myself. All right.

All right. Well, thank you for joining us. Yes. Thanks for having me. It was pretty fun. Yeah, you had fun. We should have dinner. Or we already ate.

Just kidding. Okay. I'm going to get killed. You guys are like, I'm going to go. I hope everyone has a great week. Enjoy the view. But watch your back. Watch your back.

Get me out of here. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at npaddpodcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook. at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD Podcast. Join our Outsiders only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes, and exclusive content.

And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more information on our show, our book recommendations, merch updates, and more. visit our website at npaddpodcast.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe from wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind.

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