National Park After Dark - Talk Wolf-y to Me ft. Maeve Rodgers: Voyageurs National Park

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

Today we are joined by Maeve Rodgers, wolf predation and research technician, to answer your questions about wolves! Maeve is a wolf researcher who has had experience working with wolves in both Yellowstone and Voyageurs National Park and is the perfect person to discuss everything Canis lupus. Enjoy!For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Naked Wines: Follow our link and use code and password NPAD to get 6 bottles of wine for $39.99 plus free shipping.OneSkin: Get 15% off with code NPAD.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Focus. Listen to work getting done with Monday.com. Relax. As AI does the manual work, while your teams are aligned on a single source of truth. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform, so flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Notice you're limitless.

Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders.

That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Hello everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. My name is Cassie. And my name is Danielle.

In case you don't know our voices by now or you're tuning in for the first time, we are doing this week a little bit differently because we have something really exciting. That was Danielle's idea because this is kind of her bread and butter. And we know a lot of our listeners are really interested in it. But we decided to do a wolf week where we are going, we're going to answer all your questions about wolves, especially because Colorado just did a reintroduction of 10 wolves so far into the state of Colorado, which has made headlines. and there's been a ton of questions. So we're here for it today. Yeah, so I started the idea by just wanting to get your input, the audience's input, with any questions, concerns, or comments about the Wolfrey introduction into Colorado,

but also more broadly, just because it's such a hot topic. And so we got a lot of responses, a lot of questions. And we were originally planning on just doing one episode, but like Cassie said, it turned into Wolf Week because we, are doing two. So there will be no trail tales this week. We are going to be doing an episode today that's going to be focused on your exact questions. There were tons of them and this episode is going to address most, if not all of them. And then the second episode on Thursday is going to be more specifically geared towards the Colorado reintroduction because we have some guests that have

been directly involved in the reintroduction into the state. But today we have a different type of episode with a different guest, and we have someone who has worked with both the Yellowstone and Voyagers National Park Wolf programs. So it's a really good episode. Our guest today is named Maeve, and she's a wolf researcher who has had experience, like I said, working with wolves in Yellowstone and in Voyagers. Mave's journey in wolf research began during her time as a student at the university in Bozeman, Montana, where she actively engaged with wolves in and around Yellowstone National Park as a dedicated volunteer and intern for the Park's Wolf Project. After graduation, she was offered a job with the Voyager's Wolf Project. For the past three years,

Maeve has been working as a wolf predation and research technician in northern Minnesota. Her job entails trapping and GPS collaring wolves in order to gain valuable locational data that aids the project in studying wolf ecology. The project's main focus is to better understand the summer ecology of wolves in boreal ecosystems by looking at predation and reproductive behaviors. Her day-to-day work includes visiting sites that colored wolves have spent time at in order to gain an understanding of what they were doing, investigating den sites, maintaining a large series of trail cameras, and much more. Mave was also part of a collaborative effort to aid a local Minnesota rancher in mitigating reoccurring wolf conflicts on his cattle.

Beyond her scientific endeavors, Mave is deeply committed to public outreach and and education initiatives by sharing her knowledge and passion for wolves with diverse audiences. And that passion is going to shine through today in our interview with her. She had so much great information. She has so many graphs and pictures and data and scientific journals to pack up all of the questions that we shot at her. So she was the perfect guest. Without further ado, let's welcome Maeve.

Hey, Mave, thank you so much for joining us for a wolf talk episode. I'm so excited that you agreed to do this and we get to learn all about wolves from you. So welcome. Yes, thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me here. I'm really excited to talk. Yeah, we had so many questions. So we posted on Instagram just asking because with this whole reintroduction of wolves happening in Colorado, it sparked a lot of questions. And we decided on our Instagram while Danielle posted just what are people wanting to learn about today? So we're so excited that you were able to come on to answer some of these questions that everyone had about wolves. And before we get started, we just wanted to learn a little bit more about you. How did you get involved with your career with wolves? Where did you grow up? Just a little bit about yourself. So this is a question that I get asked pretty often, why wolves? And I've contemplated it a lot in my life, because I have no idea. I grew up in northern Illinois, so we're lacking a lot of the big charismatic megafauna that you see.

And maybe that's part of why I really wanted to get into them is because I was so curious about them and the ecosystems that they lived in. Because I lived in a pretty urban area of Illinois. We had lots of different businesses and farms and everything, but we still had coyotes and deer, but lacking wolves. So that really kind of pushed me to move to Montana as soon as I could. That's where I got my bachelor's in fish and wildlife management and ecology. And while I was there, I also worked with the Yellowstone Wolf Project for a few years. And that's kind of where I got my start. And that was in 2016, I moved to Montana in 2017 is really when I began doing some wolf work.

Amazing. How was that, that experience? It was life-changing, for sure. I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't move to Montana. And it was a pretty hard move, as I'm sure a lot of people can relate, like, growing up in one place and then moving to somewhere completely different, not knowing anybody or kind of the culture in the area. So, but it was life changing.

I actually didn't. I'd been to Yellowstone before previous, like many times in my life. And my one goal every time was to see a wild wolf, but it never happened for me, even though I did everything that everybody suggested, waking up early in the morning, trying to find people responding to scopes, never worked. until I moved to Montana, and I was actually contemplating moving back to Illinois, and I went to Yellowstone one day just to kind of have a refreshing space to think after my first semester, and it was in the middle of the day, and I randomly stumbled across these people with spotting scopes. I'm like,

oh, I wonder what they're looking at. So I asked them, and they said that there were bulbs sleeping up on a hill, and I just kind of literally just jumped out of my car and went to go view them. And in that moment, I knew that I had to stay. And I had, like, finally found my place. So it was definitely life-changing. It was your sign to be there. Yeah, it definitely was. And then, so that's obviously your work with the Yellowstone Wolf Project.

But right now, what is your formal title? Because I know you're working within the Voyager's Wolf Project now. So how did that transition happen? Yeah. So currently I'm working with the Voyager's Wolf Project. And I've been with them for three years. And my title is Wolf Predation. and research technician. And I think it was kind of a whole mix of things. I decided to leave Yellowstone

to pursue other research interests. I was really interested in the new research that was coming out on how wolves were preying on beavers that the Voyager's Wolf Project was doing. And this is also during the time that COVID was really a big thing. It was 2020, 2021. Funding wasn't really there in Montana for the things that I wanted to do. So I saw a job opening with the Voyagers Wolf project. And it's a really hard decision because I didn't think anything was ever going to compare to Yellowstone or Montana. And it really doesn't, but I moved to Voyagers and my life changed completely, like on a career and personal level since then. So no regrets moving to Voyagers. No regrets at all. No. Yeah, I really love the remote aspects of Voyagers National

Park. And honestly, I hadn't even heard of Voyagers until I heard of the Voyager's Wolf project. So it's kind of like an unknown mystical something, Voyager's National Park. I have to say Voyager's National Park is one of the. I have, Glacier National Park is one I really want to go to, but Voyagers is next because I've never been up there before. And it looks so beautiful. And I've been, there's just something about Voyagers that I want to know more about. I feel like even when I look things up, I can't figure it out. And I want to go and just experience it myself. So it's really cool that you get to spend so much time up there. Yeah, for sure.

I think if you guys have time to come up here, please let me know and reach out. And I will definitely show you around and hopefully find you a wolf to look at. Amazing. That would be amazing. Sign me up. Yeah. Sign me up. And you're there seasonally, right?

So you're not there in the middle of the winter or? So my first year, I went immediately from a whole summer season. So that was from April to just about the beginning of November. and I ended up staying throughout the whole winter. And I've been living there for almost three years straight. And I really was a part of helping get their winter program going because our main focus is studying the summer ecology of wolves in the greater vortures ecosystem to get like a broad spectrum of how wolves are behaving in boreal ecosystem.

Sure. And it's very challenging because the area is super, super dense. Like we have a lot of really intact forests up there. and a lot of areas within Voyagers, specifically the peninsula, which is where the main part of the park are, are only accessible by boat. So it's pretty challenging work. And in the winter, it also poses a whole bunch of other challenges. And we have to use snowmobiles to get around everywhere. So, yeah, I did a summer and then a winter and then another summer.

And then I was going to go to grad school. So I kind of opted out of doing that winter season. But then I went back and did another summer. Can't get enough. Yes. Yeah. Really can't. Once you get involved with the wolves, they kind of just suck you in and take all aspects

of your life with the work. Well, it looks like you're really happy. And we have a lot of questions like Cassie alluded to from the audience. And we kind of condensed the one. There were so many. So I'm so sorry. People are very interested. Oh, I love questions.

Yeah. So to anyone who doesn't get their specific question. answered. If that happens, I'm sorry, I tried to condense them the most I could into themes. And a lot of them were repeat questions. Like, I don't know, 10 people asked the same one. So those are definitely on there. So I tried to kind of break them into category, but we're probably going to be a little bit all over the place. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis,

Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. The first thing that came up as far as a big theme was how dangerous are wolves to people. And specifically, has anyone been killed in the United States by the wolf? And also, what's like your likelihood of an attack, an unprovoked attack, if you're just out recreating in wolf habitat? Okay. So in the lower 48, there's actually never been a fatal wolf attack in recorded, like, modern day history. There's been very few predatory attacks recorded either. However, problems with direct wolf and human conflicts seem to correspond to wolves that have been habituated to humans. And habituation can happen in a variety of different ways. It can be just like a wolf that is exposed to people at a young age and has kind of like a positive interaction that's not super negative.

So they kind of start to see people as not really threatening. Or it's from finding garbage that's not properly secured, which is something that we have actually seen up in the Voyager's area with wolves getting habituated. And in fact, possibly the worst way it's being directly fed by people. So habituation can happen in a variety of ways, and that is kind of where we start to see wolves acting in very abnormal ways that could potentially lead to conflict. But the degree of which wolves pose a threat to human safety has been a central part of public controversy surrounding wolf recovery. And one of the dominant discussions in media and the public debate concerns over the potential danger that wolves actually represent to human safety, so this kind of corresponds to like why does, spread expressions of unease and fear towards the species. And in the early decades of wolf conservation, so when it's really started going in the

60s and 70s, there's a widespread belief that among conservationists, especially North America, that wolves are not dangerous because they had never really attacked people. And to begin with the attacks, there's been two relatively well-known and documented fatal attacks. One was in Points North Landing, Saskatchewan, Canada in 2005. And this is when a 22-year-old male was killed near a remote mining dump. And it was very well documented. Previous to this attack that the wolves were very habituated to people. They were being fed from a garbage dump. And unfortunately, through that, they lost their fear of people. And the man went out for a walk and kind of didn't return, which was very unfortunate. But the wolves weren't rabid.

there was just food attractants that potentially impacted their behavior. And then the next one was in Chignac Lake, Alaska. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. That was in 2010, and a 32-year-old woman was killed, and researchers called this a predatory attack, which was really interesting. This is one of the best documented cases of a predatory attack by wolves, but it's an incredibly rare occurrence. They did a lot of analysis on the wolves after and found that a few of them were.

pretty malnourished, but the one wolf whose DNA was really found on the human was without problem, essentially. So it was a very rare occurrence. Yeah, it is very, it is very interesting, very rare. But other than that, those are the fatal wolf attacks in North America with one being in Alaska and none being in the lower 48. And they're pretty separate in years, too. I mean, there are five years difference with both of those. With the attack. when you were describing them for both of them. Was it a singular wolf or was it a pack that attacked these people? So there was actually a lot of debate, especially in the one, I believe, in Canada.

They were thinking that it was potentially due to Black Bears because there was a variety of tracks at the scene. But they did find wolf tracks. And I think with the one in Alaska, I believe eight wolves were trapped and killed. And their DNA linked them to the attack. But I think it's kind of relatively unknown how many wolves might have been involved with the points landing one. But there's a few. Okay.

So not just a singular wolf as far as they know. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. So as far as, you know, kind of pivoting off of that, you're recreating in wolf habitat. What is the best advice to, if you are finding yourself in an encounter, whether you come up on a trail to a pack or a sea? singular wolf, what is the best things to have on hand, behavior for you? What do you do in this instance? So this is a really good question that I get asked a lot. A lot of people, I think, fear wolves because they don't know too much about them and they do see them as these huge animals.

And especially if you've never seen a wolf before and you are encountering one on them trail, it can be very scary because they are large. But there are a lot of things that you can do to kind of avoid any unwanted encounters. First of all, wolves are incredibly skittish by nature. And half the time you see one, you're probably even lucky to see it. They're going to hear you well before you even come anywhere near them. But if you do encounter a wolf and you are a little bit nervous and they don't run away immediately, there's a lot of things that you can do. You can first make yourself as big as possible, wave your hands, make as much noise as you

can. And usually that's enough to scare a wolf off. But if they're a little bit more curious, which they often can be, especially young yearlings that don't have a lot of experience around people, they might try to get a little bit closer to figure out a little bit more about who you are and what you are. And you'll often see them kind of bobbing their heads. And this is them trying to get a better sense of who you are through their nose and vision. And if, again, you don't want to encourage this encounter, I often if yelling and waving your arms doesn't really, do anything, I would suggest probably screaming and even bluff charging that wolf, like running up to them and making yourself look really threatening. And if that, for some reason, doesn't work,

throwing things at them, screaming louder should work. But in the rare occurrence that that also doesn't, I always suggest people carry bear spray or mace or anything with them. And if you need to deploy that, that would be a very good option to have with you. But as a last resort. Yeah, as a last resort, you really often don't see wolves behaving that boldly at all unless they have been conditioned with food or just very habituated people. Sure. I mean, just speaking from, I've never had any experiences with wild wolves, but I did work at the Colorado Wolf and Wildlife Center for several years.

And there were certain animals that you could enter their enclosure because they were so well habituated. But it's just so funny because they are so skittish because even the ones that are the quote unquote bravest that are the most sociable and approachable. I mean, if you walked in with a different type of shirt or like maybe keys dangling or something or anything that's slightly different, even if they had seen you every day for the last three years, they're like, whoa, what is that? And I can't come near you because this is different. And it's just I imagine. in the wilds, it is so special, I think, to see them because they're allowing you to see them

because they would have taken off a long time ago hearing you come. But okay, so we talked about what to do if you are to encounter wolf. What about recreating with dogs in wolf habitat? Okay. This is another really good question. I actually have a lot of experience in this area. I have a German Shepherd Husky mix who's accompanied me on many different occasions, whether it be camping and recreating in wolf country. So like the main thing that I like to tell people is that first and foremost, we need to be really good advocates for our dogs, obviously. If we're in known wolf country, like we need to understand that wolves are threatening towards dogs. And it's the same thing with coyotes, bears, mount lions. Wildlife does not want to be around our dogs.

And we can't expect wildlife to behave like in a way that is not threatening to our animals. So in order to be good advocates, I always tell people, if you want to recreate in wolf country with your dog, it's totally safe. But I would really recommend keeping your dog on a leash with you, or at least keeping your dog very close to you. Because as stated before, like, wolves really want nothing to do with people. You don't see them approaching, but you would probably see them approach if your dog is just allowed to kind of run off without you watching them or without you being with them. And there's just been many cases of people in wolf country with their dogs loose that have gotten into trouble, unfortunately. So first and foremost, I always say be a very good advocate for your dog,

keep them close. And I guess for a little bit of personal experience, when I was in Montana and COVID was really going on, Yellowstone actually got shut down. So I kind of made it my mission to learn some new experiences like setting up trail cameras and finding wolves in areas outside of the park. And on one day, I had found tracks. I knew wolves were in this area, and it was actually the old breeding pair of Cougar Creek, which they used to reside in Yellowstone for years, and they actually left to the boundary of the park and went kind of near West Yellowstone. So I was looking for logging roads and trails to set up cameras to monitor them throughout the summer. And I was with my dog, and he was on a leash with me. And we kind of started walking up a hill,

because I found this nice game trail, and I wanted to find a good tree to put it on, because wolves were clearly using that to move. And kind of got to the top of this hill, and I remember very distinctly there being this really big patch of snow, and that was where I saw a really intact print from who I was believing was the breeding male of the pack. And I went to go investigate it and put my hand next to it to take a picture. And as soon as I did that, I heard whimpering. And it's like, okay, was that my dog? My dog was intently looking at something and I happened to look over and there's a fallen tree and under that fallen tree were two wolf pups.

Oh. Yeah. Right at the den. Right at the den. Yep. So that was a bit unbelievable. And as soon as I spotted the pups immediately in the surrounding woods, there was howling, bark howling erupting from the adults. So they knew that I was there.

And I was like, okay, this is a little bit. unfortunate. I didn't mean to disturb them. Had my dog right next to me and we left. And I saw flashes of the adults kind of running through the trees, but they never, even when I was feet from their pups, they had no desire to approach me whatsoever. So I had about half a mile walk down the hill and they followed me that entire time. Just keep an eyes on you making sure you don't try and pull anything funny. Exactly. What an experience. That's a crazy experience. Yeah. It was pretty crazy. I at that time didn't feel any fear because I knew that they really just didn't want me there. And if I just got out fast enough, it would be okay. My dog was right next to me, attached to me.

Yeah. But again, completely not intentional. I don't recommend anybody going up to Wolf's Denz with your dog or in general. But it happened and we were safe. I guess that kind of leads me into a question that I've seen a lot from people ask is you said if dogs get, if they're off leash and they take off and they run into a wolf, a wolf or wolves that could cause a problem. Now, if you have a dog with you and they're right by your side, they're on a leash, would that attract the interest of a wolf at all? Or will they still try and stay clear of you? It could potentially. I mean, anything is possible. I haven't had that happen yet, at least. I'm sure some people have, and again, going back to cases with possible habituation, if a wolf

is already habituated to people. You know, they're not going to have too much of a problem approaching you and your dog. But, yeah, I don't think that would be too much of a worry. I've had many other encounters out just doing fieldwork with my dog, checking trail cameras. And there's another time where we were followed by a pack of nine wolves. Just from a distance in the woods, they were hauling. Still, just really not much of an indication that they were going to approach or pose a threat.

But again, always carry bear spray. or carry anything, really that makes you feel comfortable enough to go out and recreate in these places. I think your comfort is first and foremost, but wolves don't really seem to be too much of an issue when it is concerning your safety. And, you know, a lot of these questions came from, largely from people who are in Colorado with the newly announced reintroduction that happened in December. And a lot of these questions are popping up. But I do. think that it's worth noting that people have been in Canada, Alaska, the Great Lakes region, people live and recreate in wolf habitat all the time. And I know it's new for us. Like,

we've never experienced this before. So I know there's a lot of questions coming up, but I also, in the back of your mind, just know that this isn't like anything groundbreaking as far as new. I know Alaska also doesn't have a huge human population, but still. Okay. So kind of of switching gears from us in wolf habitat to just going into some of the more eclectic questions. First, regarding the ecosystem, how are wolves affecting the ecosystem? A lot of people had questions about not just big game, how they affect deer and elk populations, but all the way down to the smaller creatures and vegetation. What impact do wolves have on the landscape?

Yeah, so this is a big one. Wolves are a primary example of how predators can transform ecosystem through trophic cascades. And research has shown that wolves can impact ecosystems in a variety of ways, and they are all very fascinating, in my opinion. That's probably why I got into this line of work. I really wanted to learn more about that, especially kind of just hearing like the iconic example of Yellowstone and after the wolf reintroduction and kind of what followed after that. I grew up hearing those story, so I'll try to give a brief overview. So if anybody isn't really familiar, a trophic cascade effect is a phenomenon in ecology where changes in the abundance of predators at the top of the food chain,

cascade all the way down to affect the populations at lower trophic cascade levels. The effect can represent potential indirect interactions that are capable of regulating entire ecosystems, and they occur when a specific trophic level within food web experiences suppression. This can result in significant alterations to the structure and the function of the ecosystem. And wolves as apex predators play a crucial role in the tropic cascade in a variety of ecosystems. And as I mentioned, Yellowstone is just one most of us at least have heard of. And that kind of started in the mid-1990s when the wolves were reintroduced in 95 and 96.

And from that reintroduction, their first of all was what was considered to be an overpopulation of elk before the wolves were introduced. and it was such a noticeable problem that park rangers were even called to cull some of the elk within the park, which I find super interesting. And this, with the wolf's reintroduction, the decrease in elk population to kind of a more balanced level within the park, we started seeing all these different changes occur. Like willows and aspens were finally starting to regenerate, especially in areas along stream banks, which kind of aided the strength of the banks.

And that kind of led to less erosion, which was beneficial for aquatic ecosystem where animals like beavers live that can affect stream hydrology and creation of wetlands and everything. And along with fish who don't really do good with erosion and certain sediments getting into the water, it really can affect their spawning. More trees also led to more birds in the area. But it is, like, I would like to note that it is a little bit still in debate exactly how much wolves are able to impact these certain aspects within the ecosystem in Yellowstone. And especially if you've seen that video with how wolves affect rivers, the one that one,

it's a really good one. But yeah, there's a lot of debate in the science community about how wolves can really affect ecosystems like that. And so kind of a little bit along my work with the Voyager's wolf project, we've had a few recent publications and research related to how wolves are able to impact the ecosystems. around them. And the research shows that wolves play a very surprising role in shaping wetland creation and by preying on beavers, specifically beavers that are dispersing from their natal colonies. And a colony is essentially just a family of beavers in a pond. So once they leave to

find a new territory, they often try to go to places where beavers have not already established a pond. And beavers are known for changing the environment in a variety of different ways as well. They cut trees. They forge on a ton of variety of vegetation, both on land. And in the water, they create streams, dams, and other ponds. So when wolves killed, these dispersing beavers, before they can fully reestablish new ponds, it actually disrupts the creation and maintenance of wetland areas. And since beavers are solitary animals, if one is killed, it's very unlikely that another one is going to actually come and try to reestablish that pond. So this disruption caused by wolves can last for years. We're not actually sure how many years that it can last so far,

but it ultimately affects water storage and other ecological processes within these wetland areas. The study also suggests that while wolves change where ponds are created, they might not necessarily reduce the overall number of beavers in the landscape, which is pretty interesting. It kind of just affects where beavers are able to establish themselves. Interesting. Yeah. And it is cool to think about how the environment of Minnesota and our landscape and the amount of lakes and ponds and wetlands that we have here ultimately probably up to like the relationship that wolves and beavers

have had for centuries here. So it's really cool to see. Yeah. It's so interesting to connect beavers and wolves. Yeah. Because I think from an outside perspective, it's kind of, it reminds me a little bit of the moose and wolf research studies that are going on. Like they're not something that you would necessarily think had an effect on each other. And then when you look at it, they have a huge relationship. Yeah. And it is really interesting, especially because wolves have predominantly been looked at as a pursuit predator, meaning that they chase their prey like ungulates in order to capture them. But we've actually found many instances where wolves are ambushing and sitting and waiting for their food. Wow. Yeah. So we've also found that they

have picked up on areas where fish are spawning. And this also kind of correlates. to where beaver habitat is. So they've learned to sit and wait. That's really cool. Is that something that you're just seeing in Voyagers or is this something that's being studied in other areas as well? That's a good question. The relationship between wolves and beavers is still pretty understudied. We're really looking into like all the impacts that it can have and not only with like wetland creation, the way wolves that predate on beavers can actually affect forest composition and by directly impacting how beavers behave on land, they kind of like, if they know wolves are around essentially, they're going to change their behavior to like mitigate the risk

of predation, which makes sense. So they're going to choose not to go up on land super far to forage for food in areas where wolves are present. So this kind of creates a limitation for beavers around ponds to only forage on a certain amount of trees. And they have, they have kind of their own selection process. Bevers really love aspen trees for whatever reason and some other species, so they don't often chew on like certain pine. So in really established beaver ponds, you can see a lot of pine and not as much as the deciduous trees if they've been there for quite a bit. But yeah, it's pretty understudied. It's really fascinating. I'm sure that wolves prey on beavers in a variety of other ecosystems as well, specifically in boreal ecosystems or areas where wolves and beavers,

do overlap. But that's exactly, I guess, kind of what we're trying to figure out a little bit more. Interesting. And kind of going back to something you mentioned a few minutes ago, you were saying how in Yellowstone, for example, there was an overpopulation of ungulate species, especially elk. And I believe at one point they were also calling Buffalo, which is also so interesting because there was such an effort to reintroduce and get those numbers up. But with the lack of, you know, predators around it skews one way or the other. So we had a couple of questions regarding kind of the same thing, basically asking if wolves are supposed to help with the overpopulation of elk and deer and other ungulate species, why don't we just issue more hunting licenses to people to

help with that problem versus reintroducing wolves into different areas? And I think you kind of touched on the importance of them in the ecosystem there, but do you have anything else to add to that question? Yeah, kind of in short, yes, wolves impact ungulates. They are one of their primary predators, but no, I don't think that wolf predation is actually going to affect the number of hunting licenses given out. And this question kind of relates to a major debate when it comes to how humans view wolves. I've come to the conclusion that even with the efforts of researchers and biologists, you're only going to be able to reach a certain amount of people when it comes to this information.

And it kind of all comes down to our own perceptions and values of certain concepts like this. And there is definitely a negative portrayal of wolves in relation to ungulate populations and hunter's success. But there is a lot of research that is being done, especially because this is something that is continuously brought up as a concern for people in the hunting communities. Currently, this is actually a really big debate in Minnesota, especially just this past year. I've been here for three years now, and after this past hunting season, there's kind of a huge debate on what is happening. And people are perceiving wolves as the biggest threat to the deer population right now. And through research and data, we're not seeing that as the case. Again, with a Voyager's wolf project, we just came out with some research after.

hearing the public's concerns, we wanted to kind of try to bridge the gap and share information with the public as much as we could to kind of stop the fear as best as possible. And we found, because through studying wolves, I guess, you also get to study everything else. So we are really looking at deer and moose and snow shoe hair populations. We have hundreds of cameras out on the landscape and have had thousands of camera deployments. So through looking at trail cameras in doing what we call pellet counts, we're able to get a good prey estimate. And we have found that deer hunter's success was highest before wolf hunting and trapping seasons in 2012 and through 2014 in Minnesota. So going back a little bit, wolves, for the

most part, are listed under the Endangered Species Act, at least in 44 states. And then there's a few states that have agency over them, like Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Oregon. And then in Minnesota, listed as threatened. So there have been a few wolf hunting and trapping seasons allowed here in the state. So that's been another really interesting thing to look at. And we found that in Minnesota, hunter success decreased dramatically during 2012 and 2014, despite the efforts to call the wolf population. Just to clarify, you're saying that the years that there was wolf hunting allowed and permitted, deer success hunting rates went down. Correct. Okay. Just wanted to clarify. Yeah. Yeah. It is really, it is really complex. And the wolf population was actually at its lowest over the past decade during that period. And in fact, in 2014, was the worst deer hunting season in Minnesota in terms of deer hunter success. And yet that was during the third straight year of wolf hunting and trapping. So clearly killing wolves did not improve deer hunter success like a lot of people believe. Which, again, from the

outside, that would make sense if you have less wolves, maybe there will be more deer, but that doesn't appear to be the case. And deer hunter success, we found, is driven by deer populations as deer populations increase so does hunter success. But deer hunter success is positively not negatively correlated with the wolf population size. So putting this together, deer hunter success and both population size were both positively correlated with the size of the deer population within the state. So I guess in other words, deer hunters are more successful when there are more wolves around. And now that might seem crazy to some people and really hard to believe. And how could that possibly be true?

We found that the answer is kind of simple. Wolf populations increase with deer populations. And hunter success also increases with deer populations. Thus, wolf populations and deer hunter's success are both driven by deer populations. So, yeah. But again, also another thing that's important to note is that winter and habitat are mainly, like, winter conditions is what drives deer population a lot. We just came out of two incredibly harsh winters, and we have noticed it completely impact the deer, and therefore it's impacted the wolves. Right. I mean, like you said at face value, you think increased wolves means decreased deer and vice versa.

But there are so many other factors at play with the climate and other. conditions, disease, all of that. Like, there are so many other factors that go into that equation that it's not a simple formula. So taking that into an account is also really important. But I know what, the average person isn't going to look into all of that. And, but that's why there are people like you who are doing the boots on the ground research to get us this data so we can better understand and better conserve and, you know, steer our efforts in the best direction when it comes to conservation. So another thing that you kind of touched on that is also on our list, that's a big one that could honestly take up an entire episode on its own. Oh, yeah. And it's not really cut and dry

answer and everyone's going to have a different response. But why, in your opinion, is there so much hate for wolves? Yeah, this is another question that I've kind of been grappling with throughout my life and especially throughout my career. And I don't really think I have too much of an answer for it. I think it is a very complex topic. And yeah, throughout this work, working with wolves, you also really work a lot with people. So I'm beginning to understand how complex it is and how much goes into it. People all have their own perceptions of things that are formed from memories or stories or just their own opinions. And they all kind of factor into what they value.

and value is everything because you can have some people that value conservation and having wolves on the landscape and then other people who really value their livestock, which is completely fair. That's their livelihood. So I can see how some people would dislike wolves if they have very personal negative experiences with them, like killing pets or livestock. I also understand the fear of not really knowing too much about something. And wolves can be scary.

A lot of people know them as a big predator. And if you're not very familiar with them and start seeing them or having experiences with them or hear that they're going to be reintroduced to your backyard, that can definitely be a cause of concern. So I can totally sympathize with a lot of people's opinions and emotions towards something like that. But yeah, all the extreme hate for something like a wolf has been very perplexing to me. But again, I think it's much deeper than just wolves. Sure. I mean, when you think about it and a lot of the arguments that we hear, here on the other end is to do with livestock and wolf conflict with that because like you said,

these are people's livelihoods that they're worried about. And of course, people don't want to be at risk of losing their homes and losing their income sources and stuff like that. But there's also, as we've been talking through this whole episode, there's a lot of scientific evidence that kind of counter argues some of these things. Would you be able to provide some statistics and figures on wolf depredation losses to give more of a idea of how much wolves are affecting livestock. Yeah, I can totally do that. So with ranching, this is actually one of my favorite topics to discuss. And I acknowledge that it's a very complex topic, just kind of like everything else, when it comes to wolves or wildlife and conservation in general in relation to humans. And there are so

many avenues that you could take when discussing something like this. And it's not straightforward. and there's so many different moving parts in people's lives and values. So the controversy and conflict regarding this topic is really on all sides of human, and it really doesn't have a lot to do with wolves. Again, it goes into human values and human disagreements. And it's, yeah, I think people, it's really about people arguing their values with other people. And at the end of the day, how you feel about wolves depends on your values. And I have one study that I would like to reference, and this was done in 2015.

Yeah, so the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, in association with the National Animal Health Monitoring System and the National Agriculture Statistics Service, conducted this huge nationwide study looking at cattle death loss, which is known as the death loss in the United States, and calves due to predator and non-preditor causes. Again, done in 2015. So this study has been taking place every five years since 1991. And if I'm not mistaken, it indicated that it was reviewed and revised in January of 2023. So very recent. Okay. Recently updated. And when it was first done, the study found that predation accounted for 2.4% of adult cattle losses and 11.1% of calf losses, while non-preditor causes accounted for 97.6% of cattle losses and 88.9% of calf losses. So of the roughly 1.7 million adult cattle lost to non-preditor causes, the top of three known causes were stuff like respiratory problems, old age, and weather-related causes. And when it came to the 1.9 million calves that were lost to non-preditor causes, the top three known were similar, respiratory problems, and then

calving-related problems along with digestive problems. But of the 41,000 cattle and 238,000 calves lost to predator causes, top three known causes were coyotes, domestic dogs, and vultures. So to kind of tie it back together, non-preditor causes accounted for almost 98% of all deaths in adult cattle and almost 89% of deaths and calves within this study. And the USDA openly shares that the top five killers of cattle have nothing to do with wildlife and are mainly respiratory problems along with digestive problems, complications with calving, weather, and unknown non-preditor causes. So it is really interesting because there is this serious predation myth that has directly contributed to a federal 100-plus year attack on millions of native carnivores. And although, like,

these facts are interesting, I still don't think these numbers matter when it comes to the fact that wolves still do predate on livestock. And for an additional example, this past year in Montana, and reports and claims are still coming in from this past year, but so far, wolves are believed to have been a part of 26 livestock deaths and Mountain Lions 33 and grizzly bears 82. Numbers are down from the previous year in 2022, and wolves were a part of 39 confirmed attacks and 43 probable,

with mountain lions and grizzly bears accounting for more than the wolves. And another really interesting thing that I have come to learn is that even though coyotes predate hobbyists on livestock, a lot of their attacks aren't even documented and therefore not even compensated to ranchers, even though they are causing typically the majority of predatory attacks. Is that just not in the program, like the government program or why is that? I don't really know. I'm assuming it's not in the program because. Coyotes are not listed as an endangered or threatened species.

Right. So a lot of the compensation is there for ranchers that have been directly impacted by wolves who are listed under the Endangered Species Act. As of recently, actually, that was kind of overturned in the Western states. They just lost their protection. Yeah, that's a whole other thing. It's so complicated to keep up with the, and you mentioned it also a few minutes ago, as far as which states have, you know, agency over if they're protected on a state level versus the

federal level. And it gets really complicated because like you said, 44 states protect wolves, but how many of those states have wolves? And it's like the states that have wolves, they're not federally protected. And therefore, a lot of times they open hunting seasons for them and whatever. So it's hard to keep up with, especially for people are like, are they endangered or not? And it's like, yeah, it's complicated. Yeah. So as far as the numbers that you were just talking about, a comment you made is really interesting that, you know, we have all this data. But when it comes down to it, the numbers don't really matter regarding, you know, because wolves are still predating on livestock. And that's a problem to the 30 something or whatever number you just listed. And that's what people care about. They don't care what the statistic is if it happened to them. And that's where the big. point of contention is and a lot of the issues are arising. So what efforts are being made for non-lethal coexistence measures and things like that? What has been proven to work for ranchers? Yeah, there's a lot of non-lethal measures that are starting to be adopted by certain livestock producers. And kind of going

back a little bit, it is really important to mention that even though statistically it can be pretty low to have wolf conflict on your property, but it's also the costs are not like equally distributed. So you can have somebody in one area that has absolutely no problems with wolves. And then not too far away, you can have another rancher that year after year is just getting hit hard. So it really depends. But essentially, like I do like to sympathize, if you have wolves on a landscape, especially since these wolves are adapted to hunting large ungulates, which are

huffed animals like deer and elk also include livestock. There's kind of bound to be conflict, even if it is not as statistically significant as it seemed. And especially when you have a really opportunistic predator like the wolf, they're kind of just going to have to, they go after what they want. And if they see that they can possibly benefit from something like a cow or a calf, they're going to try to figure it out. And it's kind of up to us then to show them where the boundary is as good stewards of the land. Like, we have to teach the wolves that that is not okay. And those things do take a lot of money and time and work.

And there is a lot of research on wolf human livestock conflicts because this is such a persistent problem. So there is a lot of data out there. But even though there's a lot of data, there's still not a lot of knowledge known exactly how wolves are coming predating on livestock and then what measures can be used really effectively in certain areas to prevent this. But there are a lot of different non-lethal measures. So with the Voyagers Wolf Project, I have thankfully gotten a lot of experience when it comes to livestock and wolf conflict. Starting in 2021, when I began my work on the project, we also began

building a seven and a half mile long fence around a local rancher's cattle operation, specifically to try to drive down numbers of wolf depredation on his cabs mainly. And this rancher for years and years has had just numerous problems with wolves coming on his land and not only killing calves, but harassing cattle. And even if they aren't successful of predation, harassment can be almost just as bad. It can lead to cow is running around out of fear, losing weight, and also lots of injuries can happen through that. So, yeah, we really wanted to try to work with this rancher to find a way to stop depredation, because not only does that affect him, it affected us. And every single year, the project was losing wolves due to trapping to try to mitigate the conflict. And with that, and a lot of other research, we found that trapping wolves out of an area does absolutely nothing to benefit the rancher.

It's just a very short-term kind of like band-aid on the boo-boo fixer because if you have a, he was essentially living in an area that had very dense wolf populations and really, really good wolf habitat. So if you trap wolves out one year, they're just going to come back. So continuously every single year he had a trap wolves and it wasn't sustainable. It was super expensive and problems just kept happening. And of course, like, that's a very, very frustrating thing to be dealing with a rancher. So, yeah, we kind of partnered with him Wildlife Services and the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources to come up with a way to make a plan to help this rancher. And that was with the erection of a seven and a half mile long fence. It is four to six feet tall in certain places.

And it's also reinforced with new thicker fence posts and three layers of barbed wire. And then at the bottom, we have an apron, which is about 22 inches long. And that's supposed to serve as a dig guard. So that wolves cannot get under the fence. And so far, this past year, because it took about two years to build, it was a huge effort. It seems to be working. We have had about, I think, seven collared wolves in that area. And that's not even to mention all the uncolored wolves that are there. So with that GPS data, we've been able to see that wolves are approaching the. fence, typically running a little bit alongside of it and then deciding that they want to give up because they have no idea how to get around it. And generally, they're a little bit fearful of it because they have no idea what it is. And I always like to kind of tell people, and this can go back to habituation and everything. You've got to look at wolves kind of like your own dog. Whatever they are exposed to, they're going to become more tolerance of. So a lot of wolves didn't have experience with fences like this and therefore wanted nothing to do with it. They didn't think that getting through

it was going to benefit them at all. So they would kind of see it and leave. But there were a few tenacious individuals in certain packs that in one regard, it was really beneficial to have them colored because we learned a lot from them. And we learned that if a wolf wants to get somewhere, it's going to get somewhere. And there's two individuals specifically from this one pack, the windsong pack, the breeding female and the yearling male that were ripping things like logs, like full logs and branches out from under the bottom of the fence in these wetland areas that they found to be weaker and getting on the ranch. And the yearling male, unfortunately, yeah, he was the cause for a few depredations.

And the breeding female was a cause for none. And we found that she wanted to get on the ranch to eat cat poop. Okay. Yeah. What you do? Yeah. They can be a little bit, I don't know. They're just trying to scratch a living out of the landscape.

So calf poop is something to eat. They found due with that. But anyway, the fence has been really, really great. The rancher, I'm really happy to report, has been super happy with it. And it's even reported that it's been like the easiest calmest calms calving season he has ever had. since being there with the fence. Wow.

So seeing kind of his attitude change has been great. And it's another good thing to know is that, like, of course, ranchers, they don't want to have problems with wolves. Like, but if they do, they want it solved. Right. And I think a lot of them kind of struggle with feeling like they're not being listened to, especially because there are these very loud wolf groups that, of course, are advocating for them.

And I think they just sometimes feel. a little bit misunderstood with what they're trying to do too because they also really love their animals and they can be looked at as conservationists of land and interestingly enough ranching practices potentially benefit wolves because they do keep ecosystems or keep large spaces of land relatively intact and so yeah that was a whole yeah yeah i think it's it's hard because you know like i said wolves are so divisive for so so so much many reasons. But I think a big part of it, like you said, on one side you hear, you know, from the ranching community and hunting community and people who are largely grouped in anti-wolf side,

even though sometimes they don't identify as that. They just have problems, individual problems. But with people who are really loud about wolf advocacy, I feel like a lot of them have the view of, well, for the last however many centuries, we did it your way. We killed everyone. We killed all the wolves so that you could ranch freely and have no problems and everything went your way. But now we're seeing problems with, you know, ecologically and the balance is way off and we need to try and do something. And then as soon as, you know, the thought of reintroducing even a small fraction of the historic population and a tiny fraction of their historic range, there's all this uproar. And it's kind of like this shoving match back and forth when we're just all trying to get to a middle.

ground. You know, I think it's safe to say we will never see historic wolf populations ever again in the lower 48 states. It's not realistic. It's not going to happen with the human population as it is and growing. But just to have, you know, just to give the wolves back a fraction of what we took, I think isn't a huge ask. And I understand that there are individuals, like you said, that will be disproportionately affected. You know, the people living in downtown Denver are not going to have this same issues with a wolf reintroduction than the people out, you know, in the San Luis Valley or wherever they end up going. So I do understand it's just, it's hard. You know, that's why wolves are such a hot topic because there's so many opinions and so many nuances and it's hard to find a new

normal. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I believe coexistence is possible. I've seen it. I've thankfully been able to be a part of it now. But it does take work and not only work, it's going to take the desire for everybody to want to do this. And I think it's going to be very essential for moving forward with wolf conservation and not only wolf conservation, but the future of certain practices like ranching. Yeah. Just having to evolve and do things a little bit differently than the last hundred and something years, you know, you're not ranching or farming or hunting in a predator-free landscape anymore and that takes adjustments but it's just so like divisive i mean i've seen it firsthand as well going to different wolf reintroduction hearings not only here in colorado but in arizona

new mexico with the mexican gray wolves which obviously down there's huge huge ranching community even more so than here in colorado and you know seeing bumper stickers of uh you know it says smoke a pack a day and then there's a wolf with a bull's eye on it and the shoot shovel shut up mantra that is prevalent in different areas too. It's like there's no room for discussion. It's kill them all. That's the end of the story. And then on the other end, there are people like protect them all. And it's like, what do we do? Where is the middle ground here? So that's why I think what you're doing is so incredible because the data, even though you said not everyone's going to, you know, that isn't going to reach everybody or change anybody's mind. Some people just, it doesn't affect or they don't want to listen to it. or it just never reaches them because why would it? But I think that a lot of change is driven by numbers and hard data.

And that wouldn't be possible without the efforts of the Voyager's Wolf project, the Yellowstone Project and other recovery and reintroduction efforts. So I think it's awesome. We're all going to have to learn how to have these really hard, uncomfortable conversations moving forward because I think that's where a lot of the impact is going to happen. Yeah. I think it's really encouraging. your story that you just told with the fencing that you put up the seven miles of fencing. I mean,

that's a huge initiative to take over. I'm sure it was expensive to help the ranching community. And like Danielle was saying, there's this, there's been this kind of community of ranching is against people who are for the wolves and wolves. People who are for the wolves are against ranching. And it seems like with the story that you told those two worlds have combined not only to make an agreement, but to actually work together for something that works for everyone, which is really exciting because that means that that can start to happen more in other places. So like Danielle said, I think that it's really exciting to hear these stories and that you're doing this kind of work. And I think a lot of people listening are also really inspired by it. So just kind of moving towards the end of this discussion,

for people who would be interested in getting in this kind of work, what would you recommend, I guess, starting from the beginning to start in education and then after that how to get experience to work in this field? That's a good question. There's a variety of ways that I think people could get into this field. I personally went the route of getting a college degree, my bachelor's, and going to school. And I think that any related degrees involving biology, environmental sciences, stuff like that would be a very good first step into getting into wolves. With a lot of these large animals, specifically carnivores, a lot of people want to work with them. So it is a very competitive field. So I would suggest going that route. It's also,

there's a lot of push for getting your masters and even PhD if you feel compelled to do that. But my personal advice would get schooling, do what you want to do. But it really, in my opinion, has come down to networking and getting involved with as many people as you possibly can that are involved with wolves or conservation initiatives and kind of getting your foot in the door that way. I found a lot of success doing that and it's also a lot of fun just getting to know other people that have the same interests as you. So I'd recommend doing that. I can also extend my email to you guys.

And if anybody has any particular questions trying to get into this. this field, I'd be happy to meet with people and offer any guidance that I, that I can. Wow, that's amazing. That's very nice. Yeah, that would be appreciated. Yeah, people can shoot us an email and we'll forward it over to you, unless you want us to make your email public. We can do that too, but totally up to you. Yeah, whatever works. I'm comfortable with either. Okay. Well, you ask for it. A lot of people listen, so be for better. Yeah. I mean, I truly love, like, connecting with people and, like, having this. opportunity to talk to you guys about wolves. It's literally one of my favorite things to do.

So if other people are interested and have more questions and want to talk on all years and hopefully it can help in any sort of way. And even like if there's any resources that people need when it comes to what like livestock depredations, I'd be happy to help point people towards those or any advice because we did learn a lot through this project with the rancher. And again, And like I can't stress enough how much of a collaboration this was, not only between the project, but the rancher himself and wildlife services. And we did have like a lot of funding through grants and private donations from other organizations as well, which I can share with you guys.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing and coming on and answering all of those questions. Again, like I said, there were so many. And I think we touched on kind of the big themes that were reoccurring. Yeah, we decided to make this a wolf week. So thank you. for coming on and answering everything about wolves. I could talk about it all day. I know you're very clearly passionate and could as well. So thank you so much for being a wolf advocate in

chatting with us. Yeah. Thank you guys again so much for having me. It's great. And I'm also very endlessly inspired by what you guys have done with this platform that you've created. I think stuff like this is just super necessary for getting people more connected with the outdoors and learning about stuff like wolves because it's just going to come down to conversations and talks and having that information available for everybody. And I think you guys have really inspired people to look more into that. So thank you. Thank you so much. That means a lot. It really does. Of course. Yeah. We love to hear it whenever people are positively affected from our podcast and just that people resonate with the material that we're putting out, it just, it's so exciting to connect with

the community, two of people that are like-minded. So it's been very nice to meet you and to be able to have this conversation. And we're excited for this to come out, for everyone else to listen to. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for listening. I hope that was an interesting episode. The questions did come from you guys, after all.

And I hope that we can do something like this again, maybe in a different form, not all about wolves. I'll give the wolves thing a rest. But like a question to answer thing, just directly from audience and listener questions, I think it's really engaging. And it's interesting to hear, I mean, because we have a. own questions, obviously, and we conduct interviews based off of what we're curious about. But it is a cool format to do it this way. I agree. Well, that was a fun, that was a really fun

conversation. And we're not done. Wolf Week is not over. Tune in on Thursday, because we are talking directly with the people involved with the Rocky Mountain Wolf Project. And we're going to go deep into what is going on in Colorado at the moment. But in the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye everyone. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at NPAD Podcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast.

Join our Outsiders only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsor, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more information on our show, our book recommendations, merch updates, and more,

visit our website at npadpodcast.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe from wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with progressives save over $900 on average.

Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed, who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.