National Park After Dark - The Community ft. Justin Yoder of LGBT Outdoors: Muir Woods National Monument

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Today we trek into Muir Woods National Monument to explore the decaying community of Druid Heights, once a thriving hub for artists, philosophers and those who felt they couldn’t find acceptance in the world. We look back on what it once was and discuss the controversy surrounding its current preservation, or lack of. But we aren’t alone! We are joined by Justin Yoder, founder of LGBT Outdoors. After our tour of Druid Heights, Justin tells us more about his organization, what inspired him to create a space where the LGBTQ+ community could connect with the outdoors and one another and all of their fun events that are taking place around the country. Love and compassion should extend beyond care and concern for wild spaces - it should be granted to everyone we share it with. Happy Pride Month!   You can find more information on and get involved with LGBTQ Outdoors through their website or instagram. If you would like to make a donation, please visit lgbtoutdoors.com/donate. If you'd like to attend LGBT Outdoorfest, use code NPAD at sign up for a discount.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Gametime: Download Gametime and use code NPAD for $20 of your first purchase.Miracle Made: Use our link and code NPAD to save over 40% and get 3 free towels.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Monday AI agents took over my work. And I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. They live inside Monday.com. So they see the full picture, my work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the data. It's safe, which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff,

knowing everything runs smoothly in the background. It's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress.

Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We have a really fun and exciting episode today because happy Pride Month. Yeah, we're doing something a little different and we're doing it in honor

of Pride Month. And to show some love to our LBGTQ community that we have and love that are part of the National Park After Dark podcast. We see you. We love you. And we wanted to dedicate this episode to LGBTQ communities. Yeah. And we had this kind of in the works for a while. but finally, now's the time. And we just got off of the call with Justin, who is our guest today. And it was such an awesome conversation. And it's not just an interview like we've done in the past with some of our guests. We shared a story like we usually do. We just invited him along for the ride. Yeah, we did. And we have this really cool story in John Muir Woods National Monument. And Justin joined us. So today we have guest Justin Yoder, who is the founder of LGBT outdoors.

He also has a podcast, which is called LGBT Outdoors Podcast, where he has created a community where he advocates for inclusive outdoor activities for LGBT communities and making a more diverse and accepting space in the outdoors. So this is a really cool, cool episode. We get to talk to him. We get to share our stories with him. We laugh, joke. Have a good time.

And we're here for all of you to laugh and join us and have a great time. Yeah. It was a really like lighthearted like upbeat episode for such a serious topic. And of course, there's a time in place for that as well. But not to spoil anything, I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just like want to tell everyone about it. It's like, chill. Like, we'll listen. We're recording this obviously after we just had our whole conversation. And this is going to be a longer episode as I'm sure you all can see when you press the play button on here. But Danielle tells a really interesting story that you probably haven't heard of before. And then we're going to

take a really deep dive into Justin's foundation. And he has some really cool events going on. So stick around, hang out with us. Even though it's long, every part of this episode is important. Yeah. So if you don't stick around, we'll know. We can tell. We can see it. We can see it. Yeah. So it's a threat if you're wondering. Just kidding. Happy Pride Month. All right. Enjoy everyone. Welcome, Justin. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today. We are very excited to have you here. Thank you for having me.

I'm thrilled, beyond thrilled to be here. And it's just, it's so much fun after listening to like 140-some episodes to actually like, I'm on your podcast. This is crazy. So I'm excited. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening for so long. We know the audio in the first couple episodes. You're a real one.

You're a real one. You're an O.G. So that's great. That's great. It's all about the evolution. Right. Yeah. Well, why don't you give, we obviously know who you are, but just everyone, for everyone else's

sake, can you introduce yourself to everybody and kind of give us the rundown on yourself and your organization and just all the good stuff? Yeah. So my name is Justin Yoder and I live in the big state of Texas. I have a nonprofit called LGBT Outdoors where a 501C3, that is dedicated to connecting the LGBTQ community to the outdoors and to each other. I've always loved the outdoors. And after coming out in 2010, I found it hard to find a place that I felt like I fit in.

So I created one. And so that's a little bit about me and LGBT outdoors. And we can go deeper into that whenever you're ready to. But that's the surface level. Well, we love it already. And we're excited to talk to you about it more in depth. And just for everyone listening, so you know how we're formatting this episode is Justin is going to join us on a story that we have for you all today. And then we're going to dive into Justin's

entire organization at the end of this and get a bunch more involved in that. So we'll be jumping around for a lot of things. But just to kind of start off, what made you want to start this organization to begin with? Yeah. So the biggest thing was, you know, I could I could really passed as a straight white male. And after coming out, it would be easy for me to find any outdoor group to be able to get plugged into. And for the most part, felt comfortable. But I spent so much of my life, I'm not living my authentic self, that I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to have to pretend that I was something I'm not or feel uncomfortable, just saying this is who I am. And a lot of it was, I still trying to find out who I was as well. So I wanted a place that

was comfortable and I just couldn't find that. There was there's a lot of outdoor organizations out there that help people get involved in different activities. But I wanted one really that was specifically gay or LGBTQ so that I just felt like I was among my people, you know, and and not put walls up or anything, but the outdoors can be a complicated place at times, as you know from your podcast. As we continue to learn. And so I just wanted a place where, especially while I was finding out who I was, I could be authentically myself and in nature with other people. So that's really that was the heartbeat at it. And it just, it really took off more than what I was expecting. Sounds familiar. What a beautiful tribute to your, yeah, sounds familiar. And what a

beautiful tribute to being authentic to yourself, not only being authentic to yourself, but creating an entire community around the outdoors and just being so much more inclusive. Because as you said, we found in many aspects at the outdoors, there's almost these stereotypes that are around who belongs there. And in reality, we all belong there. And to be able to form a group that you have to make sure that that's possible is it's a really beautiful thing. Yeah, thanks. That's a huge part of it too is breaking down stereotypes because a lot of times in our world, we're told we're too gay. We like the city.

We like the nightlife. We all this stuff that outdoors is too masculine. all these things that we often get told, but that's not true. We had somebody once say that I really loved. Like, Mother Nature welcomes everybody. And I loved that. And we still get pushed back on it. You know, people will get comments like, well, the squirrels don't care that you're gay and comments like this and stuff.

But it's different when you can be out there with people who understand a lot of the struggles that you have faced and can make you feel comfortable just being your authentic still. So we get a wide variety of people that are out there, people that go out with us and, you know, dress so fabulous and amazing and do their dancing while they're hiking and everything and have a great time. But then we have others that, you know, just look like your average hiker going down a trail, you know. And we want everybody to feel like they can be themselves. Just be you. And this is the group where you can be you. And we're having a great time with it. That's awesome.

And we kind of picked a story. So how this all kind of came about is I've had this story kind of in my back pocket for a long time. And I was always just kind of holding back on it because I wanted the right time and the right space to tell it. Because we followed your page for a long time. And I don't even know like when we just always, I feel like have. And you're, you know, on our feed. You'd pop up from time to time. And that's when things kind of clicked.

I'm like, this would be the perfect. Like, at the time, I didn't even know you had a podcast because we were just following your Instagram page for your community. And I was like, I want to talk to them and, you know, see who will come on the podcast from this organization. So I was stoked when you said yes, because this story, which and Cassie is going to bring us through the park before I get into the story. But it's really about creating a community of acceptance.

and I think that you'll enjoy it and I hope everyone else does too. That's awesome. I'm excited. It's a surprise. Nobody knows what the story is except for doing it. I know like bits and pieces of it, but Danielle's like been hoarding it for her. So we get to hear it at the same time. Sounds great.

I'm ready for it. Awesome. Well, I will take us to Muir Woods National Monument, which is located in California. And people travel from all over the world to pay homage to the nature of the giant redwood trees of Muir Woods National Monument. It is located 11 miles north of Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, California, and it comprises of 554 acres of federally protected land that has been designated as a national park site since 1908.

This national monument is also part of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, so we have been here a little bit before in another episode, just not this exact area. There are no camping facilities within this park, as Muir Woods is. a day use only area. However, this park does boast lots of opportunities for both hiking and biking through their trails along it. And they also permit weddings, which is really cool. I've seen a lot of beautiful wedding photos here. And they do other special events. Do you know what this, the first thing that comes to mind when we're talking about this National Monument? What? Probably because I just want, I don't know why the hell I just watched this again. I'm like not a

huge fan of these movies, but the Planet of the Apes movies, the newer ones with the ones. The One with James Franco. Where they look too realistic. Yeah, they look really realistic. But it's framed, like, I don't think it was actually, I don't know if it was actually filmed there. But there are scenes where, like, Caesar is let out him and his whole, like, band or troop of chimps are let out into Muir Woods National Monument. And there's, like, a bunch of pictures and, like, scenes of it. I have not seen this.

I watched it because I love James Franco. Like, I could give a shit about. It's, like, the only requirement to watch that. Oh, my God. I know. Actually, his brother has my heart. Oh, Dave. What a honey.

But anyway. So that's like the one thing that comes to mind with this monument. Because I've never been personally. Have you guys? No. No. I haven't. I've heard of it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I've been. I've been in this area. Yeah. It's Jerry. Put it on the list. Put it on the list.

I've been very close to this area, though. So I've been to the Golden Gate Bridge and I've been in this. surrounding area, so I've definitely been close, but I don't think I've technically been inside this moment. Yeah. When we do our Alcatraz trip, we'll hit this up in 2026 when we get there and have time. One day. When do we make it there?

This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

Anyway, back to the monument itself. This landscape and proximity to the Pacific Ocean has created a vital climate for old growth coastal redwoods forests to thrive in. Thus, why almost half of John Muir Woods is made up of these old. old red redwood growth old forest. That's a mouthful. That's a mouthful, yeah. Say that three times fast. The climate here is cool and moist year-round. Temperatures vary between 40 to 70 degrees, which is about 4 to 21 degrees Celsius, with heavy rainfall during the winter. While the summer doesn't receive much rain because of how close it is to the ocean, the forest is regularly covered in what is

called marine layer fog, and this marine layer fog forms over large bodies of water, which causes an inversion layer that is initiated by the cooling effect from the water. So I think we've all kind of seen that before if you're over an ocean or a big lake. Early morning, you have like the big fog and clouds even if you've been to, have either have you been to Big Sur before? No. No. I feel like I'm not boogey enough for Big Sur.

But you say boozy, but my only experience in Big Sur is Al and I took his motorcycle into the woods in Big Sur. and like we didn't want to pay for somewhere to stay and we slept on the side of the road in a tent. So I don't know if that is considered bougie. There is a fancy restaurant there at Nepenthe, which I went to, which is very bougie. It's like over the coast, rolling mountain views and you drink these super fancy drinks with a beautiful sunset and it's expensive and bougie if that's what you're talking about. Anyway, what I was going with with the Big Sur thing is I was going to say, Big Sur has the inversion layers where there's huge clouds that go over the whole landscape where it's the same thing in the mere woods.

And what I was getting at with this mirror woods and the inversion and the redwoods and why that all matters is because through this, it causes fog drip, which is when water drips to the ground from fog, which then creates this environment for the red, wood trees where even in these huge droughts that California often has, they're still getting plenty of water sources, which makes them able to grow and thrive the way that they're here. So that was my whole point with that. That's really cool, though.

Isn't it? It's such a cool fact to think of, and you don't, I would have never been like, oh, it hasn't rained in months, but they're surviving off of fog. Yeah. It reminds me of when I went to Victoria Falls in Zimbabwe, like right along the dream, by the way. I know. Every time I hear you talk about Africa, I'm like, we need to go. We need to go. It's like Africa. I'll look at a flight right now. Yep, let's do it. Africa is one of my biggest passions. I absolutely love it.

But when you're walking along Victoria Falls, there's so much mist. It's like, it's almost like rainforest right along there, even though it doesn't rain enough to be an actual rainforest. But it's just so misty. A lot of people actually wear rain gear when hiking along it because there's so much mist. But it's really cool. Can I ask, did you do that? What is it, devil's pool in Victoria Falls, where you, like, hang over the edge of the waterfall? No, no, I didn't. Actually, for some reason, I didn't find out about that until afterwards, because I would have probably, I don't know if I would have done it or not, honestly.

I would have wanted to, but they have a bungee jump off of the bridge right beside it, too. And I thought that I might do that when I got there. And then when I got there, I was like, no, I'm definitely not doing that. Because the worst part is like when you bungee jump off and it's so long, I forget how high it is. But then you just have to hang there forever as they'd slowly pull you back up. They don't let you down. They just slowly pull you back up to the bridge. I imagine it hurts your ankles too, right?

It probably hurts everything, I think. It was a lot. It looked to be a lot. Yeah. Bunchy jumping is a big fear of mine, actually. It's one of the things I don't ever want to try. Apparently me neither. I feel you. I feel you on that. Going back, we keep derailing off of other things, but that's fine.

We're going for the climate here because of the fog and the Pacific Ocean that's right here. The climate here has allowed these redwood trees to survive for hundreds of years. Most of the old growth forest in this park is between 600 to 800 years old. But the oldest trees you can find here are 1,200 years old plus. Keep in mind, though, that this is actually relatively young for redwood trees because redwood trees can live around like 2,200 years old. So they still have another thousand years in their lifespan to go. Yeah, crazy. Inside of Muirwoods, the largest redwood tree stands at about 258 feet, which is 78 meters tall.

And to put this into a measurement that you can picture, and I chose this only because I read this as an example in an article, so you guys aren't like, why did you choose this as you're a example. So for the height of this tree, it would be if you placed 45, six foot tall people on top of each other, head to toe, standing up on top of each other. That's how tall that tree would be. And that's the example this article gave, but take 45, six foot tall people and stack them on top of each other. Can you picture it? I'm trying. There is another example in this where it had another. It had another tree because although that's the tallest in the redwoods there, north of this park, there are redwood trees that stand about 380 feet, which is 115 meters. And it was about 75 feet. That equals about 75 feet taller than the Statue of Liberty in New York City. I can somehow picture that

much better than 45 people that are 6 feet tall. Standing on top of each other. Yeah. Yeah. What an image. That's tall. It is tall. It is tall. And it's a tree, which is pretty cool. The National Monument does have an extensive history before it was ever designated as a national monument and as federally protected land. It is the very first national monument to ever be created solely because of a land donation from an individual person. So Congressman William Kent donated the land to the National Park Service and requested that

it be named after John Muir, who is a man who we have now known to have been a huge part of conservation. But as we know, he was not the original occupying person of this land. In fact, Muir Woods has an extensive history of the coast of Milwaukee people who have lived there for more than 10,000 years and continue to live there today. They've used these lands to hunt, fish, harvest, many native plants for food and medicinal and traditional uses. They've used these lands in a sustainable way and were a direct reason that when colonizers arrived to this area of the world, they found the ecosystems thrive. There was a balance of the flora and fauna. Everything was flourishing. It was just this amazing place to stumble upon. Eventually, though, as we've seen, in the late 1700s, European settlers forced

the coast-Mawak people off their land. And with the new arrival with these colonizers, they also brought diseases, forced labor, and indoctrinated indigenous people into their society and religious practices, which led to the destruction of their way of life. Eventually, the logging industry came to California and two million acres of old growth forests were demolished. By the early 20th century, they were almost completely annihilated. And this was when the devastation of these forests were apparent and was when William Kent and his wife Elizabeth Kent purchased the land of Muir Woods for $45,000. Oh my God. I know. I'm like if I could buy a whole monument for 45. It wasn't a monument then, but that much land for 45,000.

amazing. Texas has some cheaper land than New England though, but it's not that cheap. That's true. There's no redwood forest down there. Definitely not. Definitely not. Shortly after William Kent and his wife bought the land, a water company came in and threatened to use eminent domain, which is the power of state to occupy land in the interest of the public, which would result in them taking the land and destruction of the last remaining forest. So William Kent, in turn, instead of going to court to try and fight this decision and try to fight them for the land, instead, while it was still him, he donated it to the National Park Service. He said, this isn't mine anymore. You can have this. And because only very recently at this time, through Teddy Roosevelt's Antiquities Act allowing presidents to create national monuments, it was then designated as a national monument to save the remainder of the Redwood Forest in this area. What a smart chess move. You know, yeah. Right? Play checkers, not, or play checkers not chess.

Play chess, not checkers. That's right. I'm really bad at chess. I've never played, actually. I've never been taught. I haven't either. Yeah. Really?

It's a mind. It's a mind game. My brother, he's really good at it. And he is so good at it that it's really tough to play him because he looks at you and just starts laughing because he, like, you make a move and he just starts laughing. He's like, you're going down. And he'll put me in checkmate in four moves. Yeah.

Wow. Like, I don't. I watched the Queen's Gambit and I loved that show. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That's so good one. So good.

But it didn't make me want to learn how to play it either. No, no interest. I was like, I will watch it and enjoy and that's it. Yeah. Really? I had the opposite. I was like, I'm going to be a master chess player and take over. No, I didn't have that urge.

Obviously, that's not well. Here I am. Here I am not playing chess still. All right. Well, now that we kind of set the scene, I'm going to talk to you about a story that took place here. And it kind of, its story goes on today in a really fascinating way. So amongst the Redwoods that Cassie just described, sits a community in decay. Sloping roofs, rotting floorboards, crumbling buildings, and overgrown pathways are the last remains of a once thriving community.

And are now all that remains to tell a story of a magical time in decay. history now lost to the forest. And that magical time started with a woman named Elsa Gidlow. So we're going to get to know her a little bit before we set the stage of this community. And she is pretty famous. So there's a lot of people who probably already know who she is. I personally had heard her name before, but I didn't really know her full story. So for those of you who are like me and don't know, she was born in Yorkshire, England on December 29th of 1898 and was the oldest of seven children. Her family moved to Montreal when she was pretty young and while her upbringing wasn't the smoothest, despite the struggles that her family endured, she tried her best to

support her whole family, along with her parents and the rest of her siblings. And she was committed to a lot of self-education and proved to be a very gifted writer. After spending some time in Montreal's art circles as a young woman and beginning her career as a freelance journalist, she was co-publisher to the first North American newspaper that openly celebrated and discussed LGBTQ lives and issues within the community. She then moved to Manhattan and then later on moved along to San Francisco. While she was living in California, she began exchanging letters with a woman named Grenfell Quallo, who worked as a waitress back in New York and they actually never really knew each other when she was on the East Coast. But they had a lot of mutual friends in the art community that

kind of were like, hey, you guys should link up. You would really like each other. And after several exchanges back and forth with letters, Grenfell visited Elsa in the Bay Area and it kind of cemented their relationship. And she never went back to New York and decided to stay with Elsa. At the time, Elsa had been living in Northern California for a few years, doing freelance writing for work, while also dipping her toes into political work. She got involved in a political revolution in her neighborhood of Fairfax. Composed of a group of neighbors, they formed a taxpayers association when they became really frustrated over the lack of lighting improvements on their roads. And after organizing several campaigns to boot some of the local officials, she went on to join the town planning commission.

And this pissed a lot of people off because they were pretty successful in booting some of those elected officials and a lot of the politicians that her campaigns were successful in getting rid of started accusing Elsa and her associates of being communists, highlighting some of her radical poetry as evidence. Radical poetry. You mean feeling of speech? Like a what? So in 1947, she was subpoenaed to testify and the hearing ended up going nowhere, but that whole entire experience, plus the fact that her neighborhood was changing pretty quickly with some rapid urbanization, it prompted Elsa to seek out a more quiet and secluded life. So she began looking for a new home.

And in 1954, she finally found it. Because of the times, a single, quote unquote, because she's in a relationship with Grenfell, but two women in a relationship together is not recognized at the time. So society views her as a single woman trying to get credit for a big purchase, such as a home, was not really a thing. So she actually had to get the help of a friend. And with that help, she bought five acres of forest land in Mill Valley, which is about 15 miles outside of San Francisco on the southwestern side of Mount Tomopolis, which we've done a story there before a while ago about a serial killer.

Do you remember that story? I do. The trailside killer. That was a scary one. Yeah, that was really scary. Before his time, thankfully. So the property, which was a chicken ranch, was lined with 50. foot eucalyptus trees had partially been developed by the previous owners and Elsa and Grenfell happily moved

into the previous owner's cottage and dubbed the property Druid Heights. It sounds very lovely. It gets better. It gets so much better. Eucalyptus trees. I just imagine it smells so nice there and they had a cute little cottage in a secluded little area. It's like their little slice of heaven. Yeah. And they did share the property with the original owners. So even though they moved into their existing cottage, the owners were still on the property, and their names were Roger and Mary Salmers. And Roger was a brilliant woodworker and a talented musician.

He even went on to build a tour bus for Neil Young. So he's not just like doing this as a side hustle hobby. He is very, very talented. A friend of Roger, a custom furniture maker from the East Coast named Ed Stiles, was also invited to live on the property. as sort of a trade. If Ed lent Roger his woodworking tools, he could live and work from the property for free. So he came on over and started living on the property as well. And he went on to build this now kind of developing community, a hot tub out of salvage materials found throughout the property, which was at the time

a chicken ranch. And he built it. It was awesome. And a visitor happened to come by and asked him, hey, like, can you build me one too for my property? And that was actually the first time that the first full-time filtered self-regulating Redwood Hot Tub was manufactured. And he went on to build a lot of them, which I just thought was really cool. I kind of like want to see a photo of that. I'm sure there's a lot. I did see a few pictures.

So you should definitely look it up. Yeah. And Roger and Ed went on to make a dynamic duo designing and building the majority. majority of the buildings throughout the property with recycled building materials. And these buildings throughout the property were straight out of fairy tales. They were meditation huts, libraries, different homes, all inspired by architectural styles from throughout the world, from Polynesia to Japan. So this whole building, all these buildings throughout this property are all different.

And they have like this very whimsical look to them. You can just imagine them like tucked in the redwoods. and the eucalyptus trees. And if you want, you can start Googling pictures of Druid Heights just to give it. I want to. Yeah. I'm like, we definitely. Yeah, I will.

Just so you can kind of get imagery going with the story because they are all so beautiful. And it's a big part of the story later on as well. By 1957, Elsa and Grenfell had amicably split after over a decade together. And Elsa was now on her own again, aside from Roger, Mary, and Ed, who all lived. lived on the property with her. But she wasn't alone for long because Elsa believed that this could be the place where a longtime dream of hers could become realized. She wrote that Druid Heights had the potential to become the place that she dreamt,

could, quote, give courage to others with urges to free themselves for deeper fulfillment than the ossified patterns of establishment that culture currently permits. So she's like, this is where you can be yourself and free. and kind of like a counterculture type of community where everyone is accepted for whatever they believe or feel or whoever they love. And it didn't take long for that dream to come to fruition. Alan Watts, the English-born philosopher who is renowned for popularizing Eastern religion in the West, whom Elsa had met in the late 60s, became a full-time resident to Druid Heights in 1971. And do you know who Alan Watts is offhand?

No. I don't. So I think my algorithm knows me really well. But a lot of like reels and TikToks use audio from some of his recorded lectures. He's very about like the metaphysical and spirituality and meditation. And he's like, he's all over my feed. His originally recorded audio and some of his bits and pieces from his lectures. But he was a really big spiritual leader and philosopher at the time.

and Elsa and him actually founded the Society for Comparative Philosophy together, which aimed at providing scholars, spiritual leaders, and other accolites from Eastern philosophy with a means to conduct research, host lectures, and exchange ideas. And once a circular Redwood Library was built in 1972 on the property of Druid Heights, it became his headquarters as well as the headquarters for that society. It was here he hosted lectures, acid trip, and tea ceremonies from within its walls and people journeyed.

It was like a pilgrimage to this area from around the world to Druid Heights to hear him speak, do his lectures, take acid with him, you know, the whole thing. Sounds like a great time. Yes. As Elsa wanted the property to be a place for growth of the spirit, she welcomed people with open arms who had otherwise been cast off or written off by mainstream society based on their beliefs, their skin color, sexual orientation, or lifestyle choices. And some of the people that she welcomed lived here on the property for years and others just stayed

for short stints here and there. And the list of people that have been involved in Druid Heights is really extensive. But I just kind of wrote down a few just to give you kind of a little bit of a taste of the variety of people who came here. So this includes. This includes. included sex worker rights activist Margot St. James, musicians Dizzy Gillespie, Carlos Santana, Louis Armstrong, Judy Collins, the Doobie Brothers, and Neil Young, comedian Lily Tomlin, and feminist legal scholar and sexual harassment law pioneer Catherine McKinnon, Pulitzer Prize winning poet Gary Snyder, political activist and former U.S. military analyst, Daniel Ellsberg, and spiritual leader Rom Doss. Obviously, these are just a handful of the hundreds of writers,

artists, actors, musicians, activists, historians, and actors that sought out solace in the Redwoods. And Druid Heights was the place to be. Fun fact, my first favorite song ever was by Santana. It was that song, Smooth. I listened to it on cassette, like on my headphones nonstop. It was like maybe the first song I ever even heard, to be honest. And when you said Carlos Santana, I'm like, I know him. I know him.

I love him. That's so funny. Insert smooth. I feel like that might be the only song I'm kind of familiar with. I'm sure like if I heard it, I would be familiar. But if someone was like name a Carlos Santana track right now, I think that's the only one I could pull from memory. That's okay.

It's the best one. Oh, all right. Well, then we're good. Druid Heights hosted some wild parties. I'm talking like sex drugs, rock and roll, people are naked, playing music, wandering. around. They hosted all-night jam sessions and even served as the location for some porno shoots. It was really well balanced with that meditation shack, the consciousness and spirituality contemplation aspect. And for decades, it was home to those who felt like they didn't belong

anywhere else in the world. And it was at the forefront of social change in American culture. Very cool. And all of this came to a screeching halt in 1972 when the federal government wanted the land. And in 1977, when the National Park Service stepped in and purchased the land that Druid Heights sat on in order to protect endangered species and the watershed due to its close proximity to Muir Woods National Monument. Here we are. I mean, we love the National Park Service, but they've done some pretty messy things in the past. And I think that we can categorize this as that. It's not the first time we've heard of them coming into communities of people living. there and taken over people's homes and right yeah and kind of like you discussed earlier with

invoking eminent to main that's exactly what they did for druid heights thus ending this thriving community of artists singers and philosophers the park service offered to pay 250,000 for the land a figure that Elsa was pretty insulted by honestly I was gonna say I mean she has an entire community there 250,000 dollars that's I mean in today's housing market that's really not anything and you have this beautiful place that is not just her home. I mean, it sounds like it is a lot of people's homes. Yeah. And even though people, not everyone is a permanent resident, it's obviously a very important place. So she began a legal battle against the park service, citing that the religious nature, the property should exempt it

from being seized. But facing the possibility of homelessness if she didn't settle, she came to an agreement with the government in 1977. The government allowed only legal residents to live there, and everyone else was ordered to leave. The government also gave each of the owners a choice of either a 25-year-long lease or a lifelong lease. And at this point, Elsa is nearing 80, so she chose the 25-year lease hoping to maximize the lease for the Society of Comparative Philosophy, who was operating there at the time. And Roger and Ed, so Roger, his wife. wife and Ed, remember those of the other residents from the beginning, they each opted for

a life lease and in all they received about $82,000 each as well. But they also got to live there rent free basically, right? They got to live, they were basically allowed to live there for the rest of their lives. Yes. Just don't own it. Yep. Elsa wrote nine of her 13 books at Druid Heights, including her 1986 autobiography, titled Elsa, I come with my songs, which was the first lesbian autobiography written under the author's

real name. So everyone else at that point used different names, pseudonyms, ghostwriter, whatever, and this she was like very proudly, this is me and this is my work. And in it, she penned the plan that she had in store for Druid Heights, writing, quote, my vision, my dream has been taking shape for a long time. It is a place where compatible women might be brought together for shared activity on many levels. I have the space here for women artists who can develop a camaraderhip, and I am calling it the Druid Heights Artist Retreat. And she remained at her Druid Heights home until her death, which happened to be only a month or two after her autobiography was published. So she never got to realize that dream for the artist's retreat. And unfortunately, the Society for Comparative Philosophy

fell on really hard times and ultimately dissolved following her death as well. Elsa's ashes are buried under an apple tree in her garden on the property. Alan Watts, who went on to author 25 books, also passed away on the property in what's called the Mandala House in 1973. And half of his remains are buried under his library, which is on Druid Heights as well. The other half are buried in a location near Muir Beach. Ed Stiles lived there until his death in 2001, and Ed is the hot tub man that I was talking about earlier. And ironically, he passed away due to heart failure at the age of 74 while he was

soaking in one of his hot tubs. I mean, if you got to go and you're spa day in the hot tub, that's not a bad way, I guess. It is poetic. It is poetic. It is poetic, right? And as of 2021, there is one final resident remaining there. Since Elsa's death, tenants rented out her property on and off until 2005, but it has since sat uninhabited. The National Park Service conducts sporadic vegetation and rodent control and minor building upkeep on some of the structures throughout Druid Heights, but otherwise, the community has largely left to the mercy of the elements. So if you look up pictures of Druid Heights, you'll see, like, in its heyday, it's beautiful,

obviously very well loved and taken care of, and right now it's just in mass decay, pretty much. All of Elsa's garden, the one that she is interred in, is entirely overgrown. Alan Watts Library, their community center, all of their places of worship have all been damaged by years of exposure to the elements, trespassers, mold, decay, obviously issues with rodents and things like that. That's pretty sad. In 2011, the Park Service announced that it had plans to preserve the district and earn it a spot on the National Register of Historic Places, which is awesome news, kind of at surface level.

And the service went on to acknowledge the site in its 2014 LGBT-Hiritage initiative, which highlighted Druid Heights as a site of significance. Druid Heights has been eligible for the register since 2018. If it does get listed, it will be the first federally designated LGBTQ historic district in the entire United States. Oh, wow. Despite these efforts, preservationists and LGBTQ advocates have a pretty big bone to pick with the National Park Service, stating that it has done little to prevent the site from further degradation, let alone preservation. They're like, okay, you haven't even preserved it. That's one thing. But at the bare minimum, you have done pretty much nothing to halt the damage that's already been done.

So they announced that they were going to make it a national historic site and preserve all of this history. and then haven't done anything. They announced their plans. It's like, hey, we're thinking about doing this. And in 2014 and then four years later in 2018, it was formally eligible to make the National Register of Historic Places. But that's the whole problem. Like, there hasn't been really much in the meantime since then.

Is there anybody that's working on pushing this forward? Or is it just kind of halted? Yes. Okay. There is. So granted the process to land a, spot on this register is pretty long and complex. The horrid condition of a once thriving communal space that was so important to so many is making a lot of people wonder, we know that this, you know,

process is pretty complex and arduous and it's obviously not very easy. But why is the federal government letting the closest thing that America has to an LGBTQ historic district fall apart? especially when they have just a few years ago announced this whole initiative to highlight LGBTQ spaces throughout the National Parks Service units as a whole as well. Advocates argue that the poor condition of the site represents a much larger issue. Centuries of anti-gay sentiment and laws, queer history being blotted out. They're like, this is representative of a really much bigger situation. Like if this was a different community of people, then maybe they would have treated this differently, is essentially what you're saying? That's what a lot of the advocates are kind of standing on to make their point, drive their point across.

Although National Register eligible enlisted properties would be monitored on a regular basis to ensure their preservation, register inclusion does not legally mandate preservation, meaning that even if Druid Heights makes the list protecting the buildings may or may not happen. So it's not like a guarantee that even if it's like, okay, yep, registered, you're on the list, that anything further would happen automatically. Like, there needs to be more. But it would be a big step to be on. It would be a big step. Yep.

It would, I feel like if it was registered, then people would be like, hold on a second. This is a registered historic place and you're not. Like, I feel like it would give it like more of a push than we're seeing now. Like you should do something. It would be a step in the right direction. Yeah. Like if it gets on the list, then it's like. you're almost obligated to do something rather than just let it go by.

Yeah, you're already recognizing it's historic. Yeah, exactly. And it's important. So you would think that that would push people to have to, push the government to have to do something. So you asked about, is there anyone fighting for Trued Heights currently? And there is, there's multiple people, but there is one who has really kind of taken the initiative to be at the forefront of this. And his name is Michael Toivenin, a retired woodworker and history. Buff based nearby in Redwood Valley is doing pretty much all he can to Save Druid Heights.

In 2017, he founded the group called Save Druid Heights, which maintains the most thorough and extensive database on the property to date and actually where I got a lot of this information from. He has been in touch with the Park Service and spoken to several different Rangers and Park Service representatives throughout the years. And he says that he gets the feeling they don't want people publicizing the property as there is a, quote, tricky balance between preservation efforts and respecting existing residence privacy and that drawing further attention to Druid Heights makes it increasingly difficult for us to do our job, end quote. Isn't there only one person living there?

That's what I was going to say. Sorry for this entire episode, I guess, drawing attention to it. But yeah, there's, yeah, it's like, it's not this entire community of like hundreds of people. One remaining person who finds this place very meaningful. When it's all falling apart. Right. So they, like they from their house is pretty well maintained, obviously, because they're living in it. But the rest of the whole entire community is crumbling.

And it's like, I understand at face value that statement, like, there is a balance of like them trying to do their job and, you know, a lot of different opinions and, you know, people piping up about it can make it more complicated. But it's like that's never stopped them before from literally uprooting entire towns. And you won't uproot. I'm not even saying uproot because we obviously don't want to be like kick this person out. They've been there for a long time. But you won't do anything because there's one person when you've historically done things to whole communities. Way worse. Way worse.

And a much bigger scale. Yeah, exactly. Not saying, not condoning that either. But it just makes you question. It's like, okay, I understand. Like that doesn't make any sense at all. Right. Your statement does not make any sense is all I'm getting. They're just trying to find like any excuse they can not to do something with it.

Yeah. And that's what a lot of people are frustrated about. You know, it's like the hypocrisy with that is frustrating. Yeah. Julian Espinoza, a public affair specialist for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, has commented on this issue stating, quote, we have to prioritize among hundreds of historic structures, some of which are used much more actively for the funding we are allocated to best serve our agency's mandates and the millions of visitors that we receive every year. End quote.

However, the agency's back and forth stance on the site, their seeming lack of transparency with the public throughout the register process, and the property state of disrepair, has led a lot of people to think that the park's deferred maintenance approach pretty much means demolition by neglect. Like kind of like, okay, we're going to kind of just like delay this as much as we can. And oops, however many years has gone by and now it's kind of just too far gone to be saved.

Yeah, that's what it feels like. And I get that the National Park Service obviously has budgets and they're allocated certain amounts of money for certain things. But the reason that people aren't visiting this is because you're allowing it to decay. And it's not publicized. It's not... There's no advertising. Like, who knows how many untold amounts of people would be thrilled to go somewhere like this if it was accessible and available to that.

Absolutely. And simply knew about it. Like, I mean, that's one of the key things is knowing about it. Right. And this is, I will say, like, there are a couple of different, like, YouTube videos out there of people going to this area and, like, filming. And obviously, there's pictures of it and things like that. but there are a lot of like no trespassing signs around as well as like it's not on many maps. Like it's not going to be on a, you know, you go to a monument or like one of the parks and stuff.

Hold on. So they're saying that no one's visiting, but there's no trespassing signs on some of the buildings. Yeah. Well, I can guess why people aren't visiting. I think a lot of it is like safety concerns because like there's literally the floor is rotting out. Like you could like fall and like, you know, injure yourself and it's not safe. But it's like you're not even giving this space an opportunity for people to do that is the whole problem. Yeah.

And it just seems like you said for this would be the first historic site for the LGBT community in the National Park Service. Is that right? There are some that have designations. Like I think Obama passed one. It's a national historic site. Oh, cool. But there are a couple that are like a kind of like a head nod to the community, but it's not like an entire district of like a historic like place where a lot happened. You know what I mean? It's nothing like this.

Yes. Okay. So I just fact check myself. So Obama designated Stonewall National Monument to honor the broad LGBTQ equality movement and that it was from 2016. I was wondering if it was Stonewall because that's where the riots initially broke out. out. Yeah. So that's a big historical moment for the LGBTQ community for sure. Right. So there are like the and the National Park Service did announce their initiative to start being more inclusive in this regard. So that's another reason that people are like, that's great. But why are you not doing anything about Druid Heights then if that's the case? Yeah. I found a um another website. Sorry, I'm Googling it too now because I'm curious. And there's another site that it says parks and LGBTQ heritage. and it has a couple different parks that recognize certain people.

And they have Gateway National Recreation Area, Vicksburg National Military Park, Stonewall, like we just said, President's Park. So they have like a couple things. And Governor's Island National Monument and a National Historic Trail. So they have a couple. These are really cool. I'd like to learn more about them. They definitely highlight certain aspects or people within the monument or that had an intention. part in its creation or in a historical event that happened there, similar to the stonewall site.

But this is, yeah, people are just really upset that this is like a whole community you can go visit. Yeah. And it's just decaying. This isn't just like a blip in a park. This is actually historically an entire community. Right. That is still there. Mm-hmm.

According to the vice.com article by Leo Rocha that I actually use pretty heavily for a reference for this story, they say, quote, out of the thousands of historic sites the federal government owns, only a handful have been specifically recognized for their role in LGBTQ history. None of the federally owned historic sites have been officially designated as an LGBTQ historic site, and Druid Heights would be the first. While the privacy concerns add an extra layer of complexity, the park services in action is ultimately contributing to the very same erasure that the agency says it's committed to fighting. So in other words, they're being hypocritical in their opinion. The preservation and restoration of Druid Heights is time sensitive.

Twyvenin, the professional woodworker, who is the founder of Save Druid Heights, believes that it's not too late for repairs at this point in time, but he's pretty unsure of how much longer that will be the case. Imploring further by saying, quote, prison and military fortifications in national parks are preserved. If you're going to preserve historic places, are you going to diversify? Druid Heights represents cultural diversity, to which the Park Service said, we do what we can to be stewards of these places and stories with the funding and staff we have.

So what will become of Druid Heights is yet to be seen. For now, it sits amongst the Redwoods of Myrne Woods National Monument, awaiting its fate. And that's the story of Druid Heights as it stands today. We'll see what happens with it if any forward movement happens or if it's, pops up in the news of preserving it or making the register or, you know, because that's just one step like we talked about. Like that doesn't mean it's part of, you know, the National Park Service as far as like a monument or an actual park. But we'll see. Yeah, I feel like there is so much, I mean, there's so many feelings to have about that story, right? But like, I feel like there's

so much potential there that they are missing out on. Because like, if there is nothing else like this, what a draw that could be for them if they would fix it up and make it a place that people actually want to go to and advertise it so people actually know about it. It could be such a great place. And it's the location couldn't be better. I mean, it's right outside of San Francisco. And it's not like it's in the middle of the country somewhere that's hard to access. People aren't already kind of there for bigger draws. It's like it would be like a day trip somewhere if you're visiting San Francisco or the Bay Area. even if you just want to go yourself, like just specifically for that. It's just in a prime location, the pictures of it, obviously, if you look up from its heyday, are absolutely beautiful. And now it's just, it's sad to see the pictures of it now with like the roofs caving in and all these, I mean, the architecture and the woodwork and let alone the history that happened there, just from like a purely beautiful standpoint of looking at it, you know, like all the different structures and

things like that is like in and of itself awesome. But to know that such a movement took place there and it was an important place of acceptance for a lot of people at a time where they didn't feel like they belonged. It's like to let that kind of just go and crumble away and be forgotten is is sad. Yeah, definitely. I mean, even today there's so many places that people feel like they don't belong and are, you know, so many trans bills that are going on right now and people having to leave their state so they can get the care that they need and everything. And But that was a pivotal time in history that I feel like definitely needs to be preserved. And we definitely need to tell that story more and get it out there.

So I'm so grateful that you brought this story to so many people's attention so that we can follow it. And I wonder if there's anybody that like we can contact or, you know, like, you know, on our side at least have our community reach out to and be like, hey, we want to see something done with this. I know that Michael's site saved Druid Heights, which we can provide the link. to his site in the show description, but he posts a lot of like current events and current articles with what's going on with the effort to save it. And if there's any new big news as far as the register status or anything like that, it's kind of like a up-to-date blog. Not only just a historical reference for what Druid Heights once was, it's just like also current events to keep everyone updated. And I'm sure there's updates and things on there. That's the first thing that comes to

mind as far as an answer to that. I'm just because he's at the forefront of really trying to get this site preserved the way that it should be. But yeah, I'm, I did find, I found this story through Alan Watts, the philosopher and his pages and his, obviously he's long dead now, but a lot of his fan pages and stuff on Instagram. And I saw his library, pictures of his library on Druid Heights site. And it's so beautiful. And then I was looking more, it's like, oh, he's, his ashes are there. And then I was like, oh, really? Like, can you go visit that? And it's like, no. And this is the story of Druid Heights. So I was like, this is so much better than I ever thought. So I'm really glad you guys enjoyed it. And hopefully more people pay attention to it. Yeah. This gives me, it's kind of in a

different realm, but it took place in the same area when I did the Julia Butterfly Hill episode where people just rallied around this tree. And she was like living in it and advocating for it. And it's just like, bring everyone to Druid Heights and everyone can't bow and not like saying that I don't want anyone to come after me but um but for real like I don't want people to be like you told us to go here and it's extremely illegal and we all got arrested but I really do think that when people rally together and you bring attention to a certain subject people have to start paying attention so when you talk about it and you do things and you figure out ways that you really can get involved and get to these places that's when especially government has to start looking at it when you get these large amounts of people who are

coming together to fight for something that they believe in, the government can't be like, we don't have the budget or, okay, we can figure out the budget because now too many people care about this and we're in the headlines or, you know, whatever it is when you get people who care really passionately about something, that is when change happens. Yeah, definitely. We need to get a pride event going on there. Yeah. See, like that would be excited. us up. We are ready. Yeah. Like the potential for it is just crazy, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, now that we've talked about the Druid Heights community, let's switch gears and focus on yours because you,

similar to Elsa, created a community when you felt that there was none. You're like, well, I'm going to do something about that. So obviously, we kind of started the episode with a brief introduction of your community. But I wanted to ask you something specific about because I was browsing your site and you have a section of it that I felt really strongly about. So obviously there's a lot of power within storytelling. That's what we do. That's the whole podcast. And on your website, you have a page dedicated to story sharing and specifically designed for those

who have been discriminated against in an outdoor space. So can you tell us a little bit how story sharing helped the community that you created and even yourself? Yeah. So, I mean, like you said, storytelling is such a part. powerful thing. I think that it's become, it's always been a powerful thing, but I think in the last few years it just becomes more and more powerful as you get the right creatives involved. And, and it's just, just an incredible way of being able to drive points home and being able to communicate the, the big picture behind causes and stuff. But what you're specifically, I think,

referring to to, in short, we call loves, it stands for the LGBT outdoor visibility survey, which is part of it. Right now, it's a very informal survey. that we do to find out how much of our community really loves the outdoors, how much of it has experienced discrimination in outdoor spaces. And when I say outdoor spaces, I mean either like on a trail and a national park and a retail store, anything that's related to the outdoors and questions like that. Because right now there's nothing out there like that. And there's so much more of our community that does love the outdoors and does love to get out there than what people would probably even begin to imagine. And some of the stories that we hear through this, through the

survey and them giving us the opportunity to hear their stories is really heartbreaking and it's kind of a modern twist on discrimination in a way a lot of things that we hear especially with social media you know like one story that we heard was um a guy when he was really he has already he had already come out at this point but he was trying to find himself and really really accept himself fully in every aspect and he would go into a trail behind his apartment and really cut loose back there listening to music and doing catwalking on the trail and just like you know having a great time out on the trail and I'm not one that knows a ton about Snapchat, but I know that you can open up the locations on there and see other like stories that have been filmed in the area.

And so one day after he was done, he opened up that just to see what other people were seeing on the trails and check it out. And one of the stories was of him doing dancing on the trails and with a caption something long like even these woods are full of fairies. And like he might not have even known that that ever happened and he even said like it was even hard to really tell that it was him in the video but the fact that it happened made him feel very uncomfortable about going out into nature and to the outdoors again because of what he experienced he was able to get past that and move and move forward and still has a strong connection to the outdoors but it's stuff like that that we we faces an LGBTQ community just because we are who we are and a lot of that drives people

to the cities and to two bars. And I'm not putting down bars or anything. You know, we can have a fun time anytime, you know, right? Yeah. But especially when somebody is coming out and they're trying to find themselves and maybe they aren't receiving the acceptance from their family, when you go to a bar, it could be a rough place to start really finding yourself where nature has so much healing and peace and serenity and healing aspects that it can bring to.

It's such a better place for that. So we see a lot of different stories that are coming through this. is that a lot of heartbreaking, but we're here too to help everybody step out and get outside. And so we want to hopefully make a difference in that aspect. As you should. I mean, everyone deserves to be able to go outside and have fun and do what you love out there without someone being judgmental or hateful towards you. You should be able to catwalk on a trail or do whatever you want.

You know, these are the outdoors. They're not made for specific types of people. The outdoors are for everybody and it's really unfortunate to hear stories of people being discriminated solely based on their gender or sexuality or anything is just, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense to me because the outdoors are not a place for a category of people. You know, we are all, we're all people. We live and have to be outside and enjoy the outdoors and that's it. There's no, there's no one, this person shouldn't be here and this person should. The outdoors are for everyone.

And I firmly believe that. So I love that you're bringing a community to be here and be like, hey, you should be here. You're allowed to be here. You have the right to be here. And you should thrive here and not be afraid to. So I love that you're doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And I think one of the things that's frustrating for our community is like, we don't necessarily always, we want to be accepted by everyone, right? everybody wants to be accepted and loved. But more than that, like, we just don't want people to be so against us. You know, okay. You don't understand the gay community. You don't understand what it's like to be LGBTQ. That's one thing.

But then when you start passing laws or being hateful or, you know, even just saying, comp and making anti-gay comments on social media posts and stuff like that, like, we just, we just want to be treated equally. And like, yeah, we just want to be treated equally. It's not that big of an ask, really. No, absolutely not. It's like the very bare minimum, honestly. It's like, you know, I don't understand what the whole, yeah.

I mean, it's sad because as someone in our generation, you know, like at least, I don't know what generation we are in, early 30s. I don't know what we're categorized. Millennials. Are we millennials? I don't know. I think. Maybe. Either way.

I don't know. Whatever. You know, we feel like, and I think it's true. with every generation honestly, but especially our age, it's like you want to be the generation of positive change. And every generation I feel like has that feeling of like we're doing better, we're moving in a better direction, like look at the positivity we're bringing in this change and we're going to do things better this time around and young people know what's up. And it's like, you almost have this pride about that. You know, it's like I'm part of that positivity. And for a while,

like I felt at least myself, I was like looking at all the in my own world of like and how I viewed it. Like things are good. Like we're making strides in a positive direction compared to like my parents generation and acceptance and this, that and the other thing. But then like all of a sudden it's like we're taking these leaps and bounds backwards. It's like where is this coming from? And where did this happen? And with so many of my own peers that feel the extreme opposite of what we're. we're seeing happen. It's like how is this happening and what can we do? You know, and I feel like obviously

without getting super political, it's like you have to vote and you have to make your voice known and stand up for people that just are fighting for what you said, the very basics, not a big, big ask, you know. When you see these laws being passed, like you said, how especially Texas is such a big area where there's so many bills that are being passed against the trans community. And, and, And Florida, another place. And when you see that, it's like, now is the time that everyone really needs to start talking and telling these stories and voicing their opinions against this because that's not, that's not right. And it is, like you said, it's a huge step back. It's like, where are we right now?

Right. It was like you said, not to get super political with it, but, you know, within the last, what, seven years or so, there's been a rhetoric of hate, you know, not just towards the LGBTQ community, but can just hate. in general and anger that has kind of a leased a beast that I think is going to be really hard to put back in its cage. And unfortunately, one aspect of that is the LGBT community, you know, just the fact, I mean, you take drag shows in Tennessee. Like, okay, you don't like drag shows, but you're going to ban them because kids shouldn't see them. But why are you taking your kid to a drag show to begin with if you don't like it? Like, if you don't like it, don't go to it. Like, it's just mind-bones stupidity.

that we can't even begin to understand, but this type of stuff is sweeping all over the south, especially all over the south. You know, Texas now has anti-drag laws that are coming into, I don't know if they've passed yet or exactly we're fighting them right now. And I get that it's Texas, but, you know, again, just let people be people. If they're not actually hurting somebody, just let them enjoy their lives. There's way bigger issues than regulating how people like to spend their time. Yeah, bigger fish to fry.

Like, let's focus on, I just feel like we're all just, like, fighting each other as the planet's burning. It's like, what, can we just figure out, like, refocus on bigger issues? And yeah, but anyway, we can beat that horse to death. But if we can. And we were going to kind of circling back here. We talked about how telling stories is such a big part of your community and what you've created. But you've also created a podcast. Can you tell us a bit about your podcast and the stories you tell them there?

Yeah, it's very new. We don't have a ton of episodes out yet, but the response has been really amazing, we feel like, for a new podcast. But it's just called LGBT Outdoors and LGBT Outdoors podcast, and you can check it out pretty much wherever you listen to podcast. But we have a certain format that we try to follow that we rotate through. So we have a special guest on, and we get to talk about them and learn about them, you know, anywhere from biologists in Yellowstone to some of, this has a really amazing adventure story, whatever it can be to help inspire our community to get outside and unify us.

And then we have another one that's called Campfire Conversations, which is just kind of that. We have people share their stories with us, and then we kind of discuss them. And some of them are very funny. Some of them are scary. Some of them are inspirational. But again, what we're trying to show through that

is that, yeah, there might be different aspects to the outdoor. There might be something that is scary. about the outdoors or intimidating, but don't let that hold you back from going out and exploring it. And then the other aspect of the podcast, we just have fun with some of our staff and ambassadors. So we have ambassadors across the United States that do events in their community.

And we have basically sent out an email and say, the first seven of you that reply back, we're going to do a trivia night. And Patrick hosted, and we just have a fun time doing trivia and learning about the outdoors. And we hope that people can play along and have fun with it as well. well, and it's been a fun experience.

Love it. And where can everyone listen to your podcast? Apple Podcasts for sure, Spotify, Google Podcasts. Pretty much, at least all the big ones. But most likely wherever you listen, if you search for LGBT Outdoors podcast, you'll be able to find it for sure. Nice. Amazing. It's right up our alley.

I mean, we love, all of our listeners love literally all of those topics. So go over and listen to yours because it is right on topic with everything that everyone who's listening loves. Yeah. We've been having a lot of fun. definitely with it. And it's a new aspect of LGBT outdoors. It's something that we, you know,

we're not that old of an organization, but podcasts have really come up in the last few years, it seems like. And we just felt like this was a free tool. Like, if we can give our community something free to be able to help connect and unify them to the outdoors, then let's do it. Yeah. You said you're fairly new.

When was this established? So unofficially, 2019. So not very long ago at all. And it initially was supposed to be just a Instagram account. I started the Instagram account called LGBT Outdoors. And I was going to feature LGBTQ people that love the outdoors to try to encourage our community to get active and get out there. And it just snowballed. It just kept rolling down this mountain that we haven't been able to slow down really, which isn't that amazing?

It's a great problem. We started getting these comments just through Instagram of like, I found my tribe. This is what I've been looking for. And I'm like, what tribe? What have you been looking for? Like, this is just an Instagram account. Like, it wasn't like even a Facebook group or anything at the time that people could get connected in. It was just a Facebook account.

And when we saw that and the response we were getting through it, it was just amazing. And then we started building from there. And I was a professional photographer since 2010. And then when COVID hit, especially I was doing weddings, that really put a halt on that. But getting outdoors was the one thing that we could do. So LGBT outdoors just. took off like a wildfire at that point. Amazing.

It's so nice to find that's kind of how we felt when we started National Park after dark. We're like, oh, we'll see what happens. Maybe our moms will listen. And then when people rally around it and they're like, I've found my community. You're like, because sometimes especially when you get on social media, you feel like you're kind of talking to outer space and you don't really know who's receiving it. But to get a response like that of like, hey, where are your tribe, we've been waiting for you to appear. you're like, holy shit, this is amazing. This is what I was looking for.

Starts to put a little more pressure on you. To take it a little more serious. Yeah, sure does. Like, oh, I wasn't expecting this. I got to really reel this in and get into the nitty gritty on it. Yeah. So you said the podcast is fairly new as far as what your community is about. But you have projects and events and all that other stuff.

So can you tell us a little bit more about that? We have so much going on. Yes. So as far as, let's kind of work our way through it, I guess. So one of the first things that we really started to help because we're in one spot, right? We're right here in the DFW, Dallas-Fort Worth area. What can we do here? And then we wanted to be able to take that out.

So we decided to start an ambassador program and we started with two ambassadors, one in Houston and one in Fort Worth, both Texas. And it was amazing to see that start to take off. And we were like, we're using you two as guinea pigs. We're going to see how this works. And if it works, we're going to see if it will expand to other states. And it did. And, you know, one of the stories that came out early on, sorry, I'm going, this might be a long podcast, but I hope everyone enjoys it.

Our Houston ambassador, you know, he did a fishing event where there was about 12 different people that came together to go fishing at this lake. Some of them were fly fishing. Some of them were fly fishing. Some of them were couples, some individuals, men, women. we had somebody that wasn't even out. And at one point, they were all underneath this bridge listening to Britney Spears and fishing and having a good time. And the ambassador asked them, how many of you have ever gone fishing with another gay

person before? And they all said, we never have. We've only gone with straight friends or family member before. And like, that was my aha moment. Like, this is something that can be really powerful and really transformative. And so at that point, like, we started expanding more. And I honestly not sure off the top of my head how many states we have ambassadors in right now. I think, I think maybe around 15 or so.

That's amazing. But our ambassadors basically do events every other month in their community. And it can be as simple as we're going to go on a picnic out to a park to do it in a weekend camping trip, kayaking, whatever. They set it up. We do all the big part as far as graphics and promoting it and everything. Get it out there. And then they get to lead the event and have a great time in their community. community. So that's a big part of what we do. And really our ambassador program, we feel is like the

heartbeat of LGBT outdoors. We also have our national event that we do called LGBT Outdoor Fest, which we've done, I believe this fall will be our fourth time. We've done it two times in Texas so far. And we did it one year. Last year, it was in Estes Park, Colorado. Yeah, we rented the largest cabin lodge at the YMCA right at Estes Park. And it was terrifying because we put down all us money and we're like Colorado is a huge chapter for us but like where is this going to go? Because this is a big leap of faith and we actually sold out of that event. But basically our LGBT Outdoor Fest is a time where LGBTQ people come together from across the country.

We have a whole bunch of different workshops that they can purchase is paid in so that they can learn those things from kayaking, camping, hiking, backpacking, fly fishing, bird watching, just all these different workshops and then they can take that back to their computer. communities and still know how to do some of these outdoor activities because a lot of times LGBTQ people grow up where they don't it might not be in the outdoors or they might not have parents or friends that know about the outdoors so it's a great way for them to learn so those are as far as our bigger events that we do those are our two aspects of that and they they're going great our next one is going to be september 22nd through the 24th at a campground called rainbow ranch here in texas and

it's a great it's a great campground right on the lake and we're going to have an amazing time. So anybody that is part of the community that wants to come on out, like we would love to have you. Yeah, go down. And how many people come to these fests? You said you sold out in Colorado. How many people was that? We sold out in Colorado because we had, we just booked one lodge. We could have booked, you could book more lodges at the YMCA, but we just did one and got their largest one because we didn't know what to expect the same year. That one, I think we had right around 60 people that came to it. Wow, that's a lot. That's a big group. It is. Yeah, especially for like all of the workshops. and everything. That's amazing.

And yeah, it is. And we continue to grow. Our very first one, I think we had upper 20s right around 30 that went. And every time we've done one, we've grown more and more. And so, you know, it might not sound like a huge, like sometimes you hear fest and you think of a big music fest. And it might not be that yet, but the way that it's going for this year, for Texas, we had twice as many people do the early bird registration as we've ever had before. And most people don't sign up until usually about July or August. So we, we don't. don't know how many people we're going to have this time, but it's going to be amazing. And

the cool thing about the one in Texas is it's a camping one. So we all camp out together to be able to do it. And if people don't have tents or anything, one of our partners here, our designs donated a bunch of tents to us that we'll be able to help people. Like, people might be intimidated by camping and not know how to set up a tent or not want to be able to travel in with a tent. Well, cool, that's all right. We got you covered. So it's a really fun time. Yeah. That's so nice. Because the outdoor. can be intimidating, especially if you haven't really been out there yet. So to be like, oh my God, I've never been camping. Like, what am I going to do? To know that when you arrive, you're going to

have someone there that's like, hey, I can help you. You've never fished. I'll help you do that. It's just, it makes it feel very exciting instead of very nerve-wracking. You know, you're like, I have people who are going to help me do all of this and make me maybe really good at it. Yeah. Hopefully. you'll be at least better than you were when you showed up. But yeah, once they get there and they, you know, they check in with us, you know, like we have somebody that's going to take them to their tent site and show them this is where your tent site is.

If you have a tent and you need help putting it up, I hope you put it up. You know, if you need a tent and you're like, I don't even want to set it up or take it down, I just want to show up. We have people that will do that. And it's going to be set up and ready for you when you get there, you know? So we try to make it as less intimidating as possible for people. So for everyone who wants, who is hearing this and is like, their eyes are lighting up and they're like, this is my thing. Like, this is what I want to do.

I want to either be an ambassador or get involved in a group that an ambassador is already leading or coming to one of your outdoor fest. Where is the best place for people to access that information? Yeah, so our website's probably going to be the best place, which is LGBT outdoors.com. On there, you can find out more information about becoming an ambassador. and you can also see who our current ambassadors are and where we have local chapters at and we're always looking to expand. For each state, we have ambassadors in.

We have a Facebook group for, but our main Facebook group is just LGBT outdoors. So if you search for LGBT outdoors on Facebook and then click on groups, you'll find our big one, which is very active. I forget how many, but I think we have over 4,000 people in that one right now that is a great resource. Even if you're like, I'm not sure about doing an event or anything,

but I'm kind of curious about getting into the outdoors. It's a great place for resources, or if you're planning a trip and you're going somewhere and you want to find out if somebody has been there and get some pointers from it, it's a great resource for that as well. Very cool. And we'll add the link to your website in our show notes, so everyone listening. You don't even have to type it in. You can just go right there and click the link and find all of this.

And on Instagram, we'll obviously tag you and everything, so everyone has quick, easy access to find you. And of course, we are like we kind of mentioned in the intro, We're obviously, we wanted to do this for a long time, but we're doing it now because, of course, it's Pride Month. Yes. Yes. So, happy Pride Month, everyone. And in honor of that, of course, we not only wanted to highlight a story of, you know, Druid Heights, but we also want to open the door for anyone who feels compelled to make a donation to somewhere that matters. And can you tell us a little bit about where that place may be?

Yeah, I know a great place. So our organization, like I said earlier, is a 501c3. So all donations are tax deductible. I'll say that. But you can make a donation two ways. One way could be going to our website, LGBT outdoors.com, clicking on the donate button, or it's also just backslash donate.

So that's one way that you can do it. Or if you just want to make it really quick and simple, we do have VIMO and take VIMO donations as well too. And our user on that is just LGBT outdoors as well. So we would love it if people can help us make the outdoors space, a more inclusive and diverse place for our community, that would be incredible. Well, we feel honored that you came on and shared even a little bit about your organization and came on for a story. And, you know, obviously we feel strongly about everything that's going

on that we kind of touched upon without getting back into that rabbit hole. But we just are really happy that our community and our space that we created can be a place where now you can join in and we can all just fight for a better, more inclusive space in the outdoors. Yeah. Absolutely. I can't thank you enough for having me. I was just handed a note. So.

I could see something was happening over there. Just to mention this. If anybody is listening that's a part of the community and wants to come to LGBT Outdoor Fest, you can get a discount. And whenever you go to sign up, just use the code in P.A. and you can get a discount to come to LGBT Outdoor Fest in September. So just throwing that out there as well. Oh, fun.

Yeah. We have a code. We have a code. Amazing. Use our code, everybody. But I was going to say, you know, I just feel like I, everybody, I think, feels this way that's listening as well. It's like we feel like we know you.

We all feel like we're friends with you. And so to be able to come on here and be able to share about my passion with your guys's passion about the outdoors and national parks and everything, it's just, Just, my team has been hearing about this for a long time and I wouldn't shut up about it. And I'm just so excited to be able to be here. So thank you so much for having me on and being able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be of course. Well, the feeling is mutual.

We feel like we have made friends with all of you. And it's so nice to actually talk to you and feel like we're having, we're not in the same room, but I feel like we might as well be. One day. We've got to do a hike together one day. One day. Oh, well, one day, wherever we may meet, whether Texas, we might make a trip down to Texas soon. We're not in that area, but we'll find a place somewhere and we are down to do a hike together.

Awesome. It would be great. Well, thank you again so much for joining us, Justin. This has been such a fun episode and we're excited that everyone is listening. And yeah, just thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Can't thank you enough. Well, everyone, that's the wrap up of this episode.

but in the meantime, enjoy the view. Justin, do you want to do the honors? Yes, but watch you're back. Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at npadpodcast.com.

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our outsiders-only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes, and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more information on our show, our book recommendations, merch updates, and more, visit our website at npaddpodcast.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe from wherever you listen to podcasts.

You're listening to this podcast. So I know you've got to a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressives save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed, who sits. Saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025.

Potential savings will vary.