National Park After Dark - The Conservation President and the Adventure That Almost Killed Him (Part 1)

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Following a crushing political defeat in 1913, former president Theodore Roosevelt turned to what soothed him the most - the wild and pushing his limits within it. Roosevelt is a complicated historical figure - one who is remembered in teddy bears, for his legacy of public land protection, as the country’s youngest and most influential politician as well as a man who held racist ideals - but not many remember him as a man who lived for adventure and pioneering exploration. When the opportunity presented itself to participate in an expedition into untouched Amazonian jungle to map an unexplored river - he was willing to die for it.For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesListen to Watch Her Cook on Apple and Spotify!For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping.AG1: AG1 is offering new subscribers a FREE $76 gift when you sign up. You’ll get a Welcome Kit, a bottle of D3K2 AND 5 free travel packs in your first box. So make sure to check out DrinkAG1.com/npad.Quince: Use our link to get free shipping and 365-day returns.Ollie: Use NPAD to get 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Focus. Listen to work getting done with Monday.com. Relax. As AI does the manual work, while your teams are aligned on a single source of truth. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform, so flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Notice you're limitless.

Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Expedia and Visit Scotland invite you to come step into centuries of history that await in Scotland. Castle Steepton legend, walk along cobblestone streets. Come share the warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore.

Plan your Scottish escape today at Expedia.com slash Visit Scotland. A complex, multifaceted experience we are all participating in at this very moment. It is a journey of self-discovery where we grow, learn, and search for meaning. We are given tastes of joy but are also faced with hardship, sometimes simultaneously. Life is often referred to in seasons, stages, chapters, or periods, often as a way to indicate there will be highs and lows, and as a way to delineate dawns and dusks. The people we encounter, the circumstances we find ourselves in, and the cards we are dealt will all come and go,

each having their moment and meanings in our existence. If those moments leave us with heartache, anger, or a sense of what now in their wake, we all tend to turn towards something to cope. That something takes on many forms, supportive community, self-care, and spirituality just to name a few, but for so many around the world, across all timelines, nature has been the universal healer. Nature provides a wealth of tangible benefits that are all deemed essential to sustain our bodies, like water, food, and clean air, but the unseen benefits are equally as beneficial to the spirit. When the worst happens, many of us find ourselves

walking into the wild in search of a bomb for the wounded soul. But nature is a human, but nature is isn't just a nurturer. She is also an indiscriminate killer. And all those seeking her open arms for salvation should be wary of her ability to destroy. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Well, hello everyone. I am certainly very excited for this episode because we've been talking about it a bit in the background, but that intro just really has me ready because I already know it's a survival story and the intro just really solidified that. I know. I'm creeping into your territory a little bit today. This is going to be a multi-parter. How many parts? Who really knows? I'm hoping for two. But before we get started, hello everyone. My name is Danielle and I co-host this podcast called National Park

After Dark, where we tell stories about the outdoors in National Park in public land settings. And today, we are thrown it back to the early 1900s for a survival story for sure. But before we do so, we also, somebody's like, you guys really don't value free time, do you? And that's true. Cassie and I started a little something on the side. Yes, we have a whole new project that is coming out on April 9th. It's called Watch Her Cook and it's a new podcast that we've been working on for a while. Yeah, we're like, hey, we're comfortable with the title of podcaster now, so we're going to lean into it and start expanding. So, yeah, we started Watcher Cook. It's going to be premiering in just a few days. And if you are really loving the stories that we touch upon or cover in this show about women, you're really going to love Watcher Cook. Because it is all about women in vastly different roles that extend far beyond the kitchen and that are not just based in the outdoors.

We're going to be creeping into other territory. That's going to be all encompassing. So if you're interested in that, you can find us at Watcher Cook Podcast on Instagram and keep up with stuff there. And look out for the first two episodes on April 9th. Well, let's get into your story because I have been chomping at the bit to hear it. Okay. Well, as we enter April, April is a big month because not only is it mostly airy season,

which you know I love, if you know me. It also celebrates two other things that are near and dear to our hearts, and that's National Park Week and Earth Day. So in a nod to National Park Week coming up, today's episode is centered around someone who I think we all grew up learning some things about, but probably not all, and about somebody who is remembered in the National Park world with regard for the legacy that he left behind for our public lands. Theodore Roosevelt has been remembered for a myriad of accomplishments. He is truly someone who lived multiple lives. He was a naval strategist, a rough rider, an author of over 30 books, a cattle rancher, a Nobel Peace Prize recipient, and of course,

a politician and the youngest president to take office here in the United States. And he has a national park named after him. He does. Yes, he does. Almost every American child has had a childhood toy named after him in the form of the teddy bear. and his unique combination of political, military, intellectual, and personal traits contributed to his enduring legacy as one of the most influential presidents in United States history. One of his longest lasting accomplishments many outdoor enthusiasts are well aware of, his large contributions to public lands. He was titled the Conservation President, and many argue his truest and longest lasting legacy is that of conservation. And we'll talk a little bit more about it further into

this story, but Roosevelt's earliest and longest-lasting passion was the environment, and his first true calling wasn't that of a politician, but that of a naturalist. Coming of age during the turn of the century and at a time of a serious shift in industrialization and technological shifts, he bore witness to the price wild places were paying in the name of all of this advancement. He has many speeches and quotes on the importance of wildlife and public land protection and his love for recreating in the outdoors, but I just wanted to pull too to kind of set the tone here. Of all the questions which can come before this nation, short of the actual preservation of its existence in a great war, there is none which compares an importance with the great central

task of leaving this land even a better land for our descendants than it is for us. And the second one is, quote, we have become great because of the lavish use of our resources, But the time has come to inquire seriously what will happen when our forests are gone, when the coal, the iron, the oil, and the gas are exhausted, when the soils have still further impoverished and washed into the streams, polluting the rivers, denunding the fields, and obstructing navigation. These quotes are so interesting because I know from what you're saying that they're from theater Roosevelt, Roosevelt, and that they happened in the early 1900s, but you could tell me that

someone said those yesterday and I would be like that's very timely and that makes sense. Yep. It just goes to show that we've been facing these problems and these conundrums for well over a century and it's been at the top of mind for a lot of leaders and still continues to do so. According to the National Park website, quote, after becoming president in 1901, Roosevelt used his authority to protect wildlife and public lands by creating the United States Forest Service and establishing 150 national forests, 51 federal bird reserves, four national game preserves, five national parks, and 18 national monuments by enabling the 1906 American Antiquities Act.

During his presidency, Deidore Roosevelt protected approximately 230 million acres of public land. Very cool. So that is kind of why we all refer to him as the conservation president. And he did do clearly a lot of good things that we are still reaping the benefits for for public lands in the National Park Service and the U.S. Forest Service. But, of course, there are two sides to every coin. To continue the conversation on the conservation aspect, much of the reason why he wanted to protect and conserve land is so he could trophy hunt point blank. He hunted everywhere from the northeast to the Wild West and partook in safaris and game hunts across the globe. While he did view hunting not purely for sport, no one can deny he thoroughly enjoyed that aspect.

He also viewed it as a way to learn about land and the animals that inhabit that land. One of his safaris that was commissioned as a scientific expedition by the Smithsonian Institute was 11 months long, spanned over 2,500 miles throughout East Africa, and involved trapping or shooting over 11,000 animals, including everything from insects to the largest of game, including elephants, hippos and rhinos. Wait, he killed 11,000 animals? On this expedition, the expedition did. Yeah. Wow. Roosevelt and his colleagues chronicled that wildlife in the habitat of the region and collected specimens on that particular trip that formed the basis of the Smithsonian's Natural History Museum

collection. So a lot of the taxidermy and different specimens that you see in that museum are from that expedition. So I wanted to touch a upon that because yes, he did do a lot of things. And yes, it's very complex and nuanced. And he wasn't just all about killing for the sake of killing, as we'll get into. He did have a big heart for conservation and understanding the natural world and being in awe of it and wanting to protect it. But he also went places specifically to hunt big game. So there's that. So there's like some bad stuff. But, you know, I'm very interested in hearing more about him. But as we do know that hunting and conservation often go hand in hand with each other. And so I'm not super shocked that I also knew

partially this. I didn't know that there was 11,000 animals killed in one expedition that is astronomical and I can't think of any reason why that would be okay. But it is interesting that he wanted to preserve all these places because he loved hunting. Yeah. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. Yeah. I mean, if you're not preserving these species in these landscapes, There's nowhere for you to hunt them. I mean, if you decimate the whole population, you can't hunt them anymore. And you can't recreate on the land if it doesn't exist anymore. So there are reasons to keep these animals and places alive.

Yep. And just as a little side note, he was against hunting for the pure sake of killing. Like, there was always something to be gained in his mind, as well as any senseless slaughter. And so this is just a little quick side note on the teddy bear because it all kind of comes from this one incident. During an unsuccessful bear hunt in Mississippi, Roosevelt's guide tracked down a bear, injured it, and tied it to a tree so that the president could have an easy kill and kind of walk away from that hunt, you know, successfully. Roosevelt refused to shoot the animal, and that scene was captured by a political cartoonist named Clifford Berryman and was famously

illustrated and later published. After the cartoon appeared in papers, a shopkeeper decided to call his toy bears, Teddy's bears, giving rise to the infamous teddy bear that we all know today. I never knew that. Cute. Cute story. Kind of cute story. I mean, cute. There was an injured bear.

Yeah. But cute outcome, great. Like, let's all celebrate him. But again, here we go with another thing that I need to mention before we go on with the story. And I promise after this, it's going to actually be like not so much of a history. lesson, but it's really important to discuss this stuff at the top because I know a lot of people out there are going to be like, wait a minute. But he kind of was not that great. And I know that. Multifaceted, good things, bad things. Yeah. But that's part of what we love to do on this podcast is to

highlight not just like the stuff that we like. Right. The true history of it. That's right. So Roosevelt was also a racist, plain and simple. He held dangerous views of minority groups, including indigenous and black people, as well as anyone that he deemed non-American. And while that aspect of him was overshadowed for much of history, it came to light real hard in 2020 on the world stage when people demanded his statue be removed from the front of the American Museum of Natural History. The 10-foot bronze statue depicted him atop a horse with both an indigenous person and a black person at each of his sides, a monument that many believed to represent racial hierarchy

that favors whites over other races. I fully remember this. Yes, me too. This was huge in the media. And I do think rightfully so, especially seeing, like, if you're listening to this podcast, go Google an image of the statue. I mean, the argument for what you're saying was totally warranted. Historian David Silby, in an interview for a 2020 article for NBC News,

explains Roosevelt is a contradiction of values and a figure, that stirs both admiration and contempt saying, quote, one of the perils of being a historian is that there aren't any good people in history. I think both Theodore Roosevelt's are true. I think that he was certainly the kind of progressive politician of the early 20th century, who started moving the United States forward on environmental and other issues, but he was also a racist who viewed other peoples around the world as distinctly inferior to Americans, end quote.

The museum did decide to take the status. you down and Roosevelt's great-grandson, Mark Roosevelt, agreed with that decision, saying, quote, if we wish to live in harmony and equality with people of other races, we should not maintain patronalistic statues that depict Native Americans and African-Americans in subordinate roles. The statue of Theodore Roosevelt, my great-grandfather, in front of New York's Museum of Natural History, does so, and it is a good thing that it is being taken down. Yeah. And I think it's also really important to mention why, like, why that's so important right now. And I think a huge part of that is because in the outdoor space and in the outdoor communities, there is a huge

misrepresentation and not representation of people of color and other ethnicities throughout the outdoors. And it's almost, I mean, if you look at the statistics of the amount of white people who go to national parks versus other ethnicities, the numbers are staggering. So to have, something that so blatantly is related to an outdoor space that is depicting indigenous people and black people in this way is very harmful for the overall narrative of who should be in the outdoors. Yeah. So that was taken right down. Everybody is kind of on the consensus that that was a good thing. And recognizing, you know, just like that historian said, there's no good, you know, there's no, he's not good, he's not bad, he's both, as are many people in history.

and we just need to recognize that, acknowledge that, and move forward. These are the facts of what happened, but acknowledge that we don't have to celebrate everything that. About this person. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Not to harp on all of that in depth.

But an interesting point to make. But I had to, you know. Yeah. So with that in mind, all of that in mind, recognized, addressed, having a moment of silence for that. This story is one of the last, if not the last. grand adventure of Theodore Roosevelt's life, one that he almost didn't survive, and one of true Amazonian exploration. It's got elements of adventure, misadventure, discovery, tragedy, and death. And despite all that we know about Theodore Roosevelt, it is a story that for most

of history was merely a footnote on his resume, despite being such a dramatic part of his life. This is the story of the Roosevelt-Rondon expedition and the mapping of the river. of doubt. Well, you know, I love a survival story. You're getting all in. I'm getting like, I'm a little chilly right now. I'm getting cozy. I know this is a three or four parters. It's not. Okay, hold on a minute. Hold on. I'll be here for a while. Yeah, I'm going to try and make it two parts. We'll see. I'm definitely parsing the story down for sure because at the top I read an amazing book titled The River of Doubt, Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey by Candace Millard. She's also wrote a lot of other historic novels that are amazing.

She's a New York Times bestseller. This book is great. It's also very long. It's almost 500 pages long. So to make it a two-parter would be a huge accomplishment on my part. So let's just all keep that. We haven't had many three-parters. So it would be every, I love multiple.

I love getting really invested in a story and getting to hang out there for a little bit. So whatever you decide, we're ready for it and we're going. Okay. All right. Well, despite how many times we'll be here for this story, let's begin. So good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince, Sam Edelman, frame, and free people. Join the Nordi Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

For most of his adult life, Roosevelt's life largely revolved around politics. But in the wake of his 1912 loss, it was time for a change. His loss to Woodrow Wilson was a blow. And while he saved face publicly and took the defeat in stride behind closed doors and in the company of his inner circle, he was devastated. Not only did he lose the election, for various reasons I won't get into, as they are very politically complicated, he lost the support he had grown accustomed to.

For years, the American public clamored to see Roosevelt speak and hung on his every word and rallied behind him. He was accustomed to being a formidable leader and had grown into an icon as one of the most celebrated presidents in the nation's history. So while he wasn't exactly blindsided by his loss in November of 1912, for the fiercely competitive former president, it was a blow not only due to the presidential run loss, but the degree to which his former supporters

turned on him. As a result, he retreated to his Sagamore Hill, New York Estate, which is now a national historic site also, with his family, who described him as having a bruised spirit. Withdrawing from society and immersing himself in the seclusion of the wilderness and the challenges it could present was not new for Roosevelt. If he loved anything, it was a challenge. And that attitude became his savior on more than one occasions, beginning in childhood. Roosevelt was born a very sickly child, frail and with severe asthma. And for a time, his parents wondered if he would even survive into adulthood. However, Roosevelt's mind was strong, and he was determined to overcome his physical limitations by implementing intense physical training

and relying on his mental fortitude. With his father's encouragement, his physical fitness routine, and his own mental toughness, Roosevelt transformed himself into a strong young adult and overcame his condition. He went on to study at Harvard and began boxing, which became an outlet for his grief and anger at his father's sudden and unexpected passing at the age of 46. Following the first tragedy of his life, Roosevelt plunged himself further into his studies and into seclusion in the summers, disappearing into the thick main wilderness. Things were looking up for him when he reached his early 20s. He graduated Harvard and married a woman named Alice Lee.

Somebody he initially pinned as way out of his league, but happily managed to Wu and had been elected as New York State's youngest assemblyman. However, when he was just 25 years old, the two people closest to him in life, his mother, Martha, and his wife Alice, died on the same day. On Valentine's Day of 1884, his mother died at age 48 from typhoid fever, and just 11 hours later, Alice died of Bright's disease, a kidney disorder just two days after giving birth to their first child. Oh, that's awful. He marked the date in his journal with a thick black X and a simple, profound sentence. Quote, the light has gone out of my life. Following their deaths, he left his infant daughter, named Alice, after his wife, in the care of his family, while he turned to the only thing he knew to cope with all of this despair.

and that was losing himself to nature, laying himself out to the mercy of the challenges that it presented, and this time, that was to the rugged Dakota badlands. This was a pattern that his friends and family came to expect with Roosevelt, and he turned to physical and wilderness challenges, treks and adventures for not only the losses of people, but as a way to work through the most difficult events that he faced throughout his life. In fact, according to the author Candace Millard of the River of Doubt, which is, is, like I said, the primary resource I used for this episode. Quote, throughout his adult life, Roosevelt would relish in physical exertion and would use it not just as a way to keep his body fit and his mind sharp, but as his most effective weapon against depression and despair. And he did this often by losing himself to the wilderness. That's why, when one February morning in 1913, while flipping through the most recent mail

delivery at Sagamore Hill, Edith's breath caught in her throat, and Edith is his second wife that he remarried after Alice. As she looked down at the thick packet addressed to her husband, that all too familiar feeling overcame her. She was about to lose her husband to another adventure. 52-year-old Edith had spent nearly half her life waiting for her husband to return from wherever far off Placia traveled to, either for war, campaigns, various trips, or adventures. And looking down at the invitation from the Museo Social, a social history museum based in Argentina, she knew another prolonged separation was afoot. The lengthy invitation essentially was requesting Roosevelt to be a guest lecturer on a tour circuit around South America.

It spoke to the admiration the group had for Roosevelt's accomplishments, his career, his ideals. They were really gassing him up. And Roosevelt received a lot of invitations to do different public engagements and speeches and things. and things like that, clearly, as one of the most successful presidents and politicians in history. And he passed up a lot of them, especially when he had retreated back to this estate with his family and was kind of just working through a lot emotionally. And, you know, it was a tough time in his life. And he said no to a lot. But this one really piked his interest.

They offered a sum equivalent of about $250,000 today for this tour. But aside from the financial incentive and the opportunity to. to be a keynote speaker, there was a personal reason that Roosevelt considered this invitation especially intriguing, the ability to extend his trip into an expedition. At the time, South America was considered beyond remote, largely unmapped, and considered highly dangerous. In 1913, with the exception of some large and lengthy rivers that were documented, there was a large swath of dense jungle, the size of the country of Germany, smack dab in the middle of South America that remained unmapped and unexplored by any foreigners.

Interesting. The pristine jungles, unpenetrated wilderness that remained untouched by outsiders, the danger that such a place could offer, the pure wildness of it was like a siren song that touched parts of Roosevelt's soul that were always straining to hear the call. And that was exactly what ultimately led Roosevelt to say yes to this invitation. Before all the prestigious titles he gained as an adult, and prior to every accolade he earned that we remember him by today, Theodore was a kid in New York City that was obsessed with nature. He filled his pants and shelves at home with plants and insects and small critters like snakes and mice.

He would observe them, draw them, and take notes on their behavior and their composition. He read about pioneering naturalists like John Audubon and dreamed of becoming one himself. By the time he was 14 years old, he was already contributing specimens to New York's Museum of Natural History, which is a museum his father helped found, and entered Harvard with full intentions of furthering his formal education in zoology and natural history. He was quickly disappointed when he discovered that most of the studies revolved around lab work, and that largely meant sitting in front of a microscope inside. and he was entirely uninterested in anything but field work. And seeing as how that entire naturalist program at Harvard involved tedious lab-based work, he pivoted to political studies over his lifelong passion for natural science. He may have formally switched studies, but never gave up his interest in nature.

In fact, he took every opportunity he could to escape into the wild, either alone or with guests throughout his entire life, and continued his contributions of various specimens from his adventures throughout the states and beyond to the Natural History Museum and the Smithsonian. So his plan for this South American expedition slash essentially it was a job obligation before it became this grand expedition that we are going to focus on. I can relate to that. It's like you have to go here for a job. It's like, oh, but what if I make a vacation out of us? Yeah.

You usually tack on a few days before and after to do so. That was essentially his plan, but just on steroids, basically. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night.

And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring. treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. His plan was to perform his studios as a speaker and then extend his travels deeper into the Amazon on a scientific expedition. He knew what he wanted to do and he turned to his lifelong relationship with the Museum of Natural History for advice on how to make it a reality. It was the heyday for exploration and the museum was a distinguished sponsor of expeditions to all of the most remote and far-flung locations around the world.

And its president and longtime friend of Roosevelt, Henry Fairfield Osborne, was ecstatic to help Roosevelt organize his journey into the Amazon and quickly began assisting in organizing his expedition. First up was onboarding someone unlikely, a priest. Father John Augustine Zom, who was a bit of an enigma in the church, he trained for the priesthood since he was young, like at the age of 16. but he also, as an adult, taught chemistry and physics at Notre Dame and was a proponent of evolution and even wrote some books about it. So that was not the norm, especially back in the early 1900s. And Father Zom had visited South America for the first time back in 1907 on an expedition to the Amazon River. And ever since he had returned, he had been searching for a way to go back. He just became obsessed with that part of the world, but was falling short on finding out of the world.

but was falling short on finding friends to accompany him or different expeditions to get onto as a way of making that happen. I'm sure I would take a very long time just to even get to South America, never mind to actually do the trip as well. So I'm sure it would be hard to find people willing to commit to that. And over the years, he approached Roosevelt, whom he had initially met through Notre Dame and went on to become good friends with on several different occasions, urging him to join him to the Amazon. He knew that Roosevelt traveled the world. This was his thing. He was hoping to get something going with Roosevelt as a way to get himself back there. He's like, you're my outdoor friend.

Yeah. It's like, come on. Please come with me. But it never really quite aligned. For one reason or another, he was always shot down. Years piled on to one another. And before long, Father Zom looked in the mirror and saw an aged man. One whose opportunity for a glorious adventure into the jungles of South America were closing rapidly.

Imagine his surprise when he reached out to his connections at the Museum of Natural History for help in seeking advice to make his trip a reality when they informed him, hey, Theodore Roosevelt is doing the same. You guys should link up. Father Zom, now in his mid-60s, wound up serving as the expedition organizer, which meant choosing the route, ordering provisions, organizing transportation, and equipment, all the details that Roosevelt was happy to leave to others. It seemed like at first when organizing this, it kind of was like Roosevelt had this idea of wanting to extend his trip. He wants to do this expedition. He was like, hey, I want to do this. Somebody else make it happen. And I'll be there. Kind of like trusting others to put it together.

He was not very... He didn't want to plan it. He just wanted to be part of it. Right. So he wasn't very hands-on involved in any of the early formation and organizing. and moving parts of this. The first passenger princess. Yeah.

Actually, that's a wonderful way to put it. I'm going to not elaborate any further because we get that. He was so happy, in fact, to leave everything to everybody else that he left on a hunting trip for five weeks with two of his sons, leaving all of the prep work to father Zom. In Zom's process of broadening the team and in hopes of delegating tasks and responsibilities, he onboarded 44-year-old Anthony Fiala, a man that at the time served as the head of a New York City sporting goods store who would take on the responsibility of ordering the team's provisions and

equipment. And he wasn't just a store clerk. Everyone in the world of exploration knew his name, but not for the best of reasons. Years earlier, Anthony had served as a photographer on one of the expeditions sent out to be the first to reach the North Pole. When that expedition's leader was fired, Fiala was promoted to commander, at which he epically failed. The expedition was tragically unprepared and disorganized. The ship became encased and trapped in ice, crushed and sank, and he and his team were stranded on the ice for two years. The expedition went down in history as a disaster of legendary proportions, and when they returned home, Fiala was really ripped apart. The nicest of comments labeled him as utterly incompetent. So.

And hate to hear the bad ones. And they're like, this is the guy who should help us with our expedition. Yeah. Despite having no experience in the Amazon and his not so stunning resume, Fiala secured the position as the person equipping this entire expedition. The team grew as Zom onboarded more and more men, everyone from naturalists to handymen, porters, paddlers, doctors, and more, again, many with questionable resumes and character. As things were starting to take shape, the museum watched with concern. With the exception of Zom and Fiala, none of the people involved so far had any real experience in the Amazon.

And that was clear. From the onset, there were arguments about everything from the most suitable provisions, equipment, to logistics. They grew worried for Roosevelt's well-being in the hands of what appeared to be kind of like a rag-tab group of explorers. You're like, what is happening here? There's so much that's going to go wrong. I feel like you're foreshadowing so hard.

Thank you so much. Not only was Roosevelt their friend, you know, the leaders of the museum, especially Osborne. Yeah. This was a beloved ex-president. And if anything was to go wrong, if he was to be injured or killed on an expedition that their museum was funding and advising, it would not be a good look. No, not at all. And they're looking at this, like, wait a second, what's going on?

And also, how do you question the president and his team at the same time of like, hey, are you sure you want to do this? But also, it's really going to look bad on us if it goes wrong. They're just trying to gently guide some decision making. Yeah. While also maintaining their reputation. A good relationship. They stepped in and hired men of their own,

whose abilities and experience they were confident in. 48-year-old ornithologist George Sherry, who had nearly 30 years of experience in South America on over 25 trips collecting avian specimens while navigating through the Amazon, and 48-year-old Colonel Candido Mariano de Silva Rondon, a guide who spent half of his life exploring the Amazon, traversing nearly 14,000 miles of unmapped wilderness

and was known as both a hardened explorer and a disciplined military officer were onboarded. Okay. Now we're cooking with gas. That's a good sign. Both men were initially wary of joining. They were hesitant to tag along on a trip that was cushy or just for hunting purposes. They knew of Roosevelt's past expeditions and they knew that they were geared largely towards hunting or for tourism purposes. But they were persuaded when they were reassured that this was for scientific exploration.

Father Zom was attempting to make a deal. with National Geographic to sell them a series of photographs that would be taken on this expedition, and several team members were tasked with collecting plant and animal specimens for museum collections and various scientific studies. So this wasn't just like the president wants to see the Amazon and we're going to carry them on a chair around to see things. You know, they wanted to make sure it was legit and they agreed to join. It's worth noting that despite organizing this entire expedition, Father Zom was not particularly well-suited to do so either. While he had visited South America that one time and wrote several books on his travels,

among the small circle of South American explorers of the time, the legitimacy of his claims was called into question. They were skeptical of his actual experience after reading his writings on his experiences, and some got the feeling that he saw so little of the countries that he claimed to have visited, that he may as well have never visited them at all. Oh, wow. Yikes. How bad were his writings?

I think they were just misrepresentative of what was truly... Yeah, I was just curious of what he was saying. I don't know. I don't know. Like, he's clearly never been here. Whether or not Roosevelt was concerned with Zom, Fiala, or any of the other men's abilities, or lack thereof, he didn't really make mention of it. He was informed of the risks encountering hostile.

indigenous peoples, battling Whitewater Rapids, the potential of getting lost, the potential for contracting a myriad of different diseases, and battling the elements and the wildlife. But he accepted all of that and took it in stride. He didn't exactly brush them off, but he was willing to take his chances, fully recognizing his life could be in danger. He wasn't exactly throwing all caution to the window, especially as there would be someone he cared for deeply joining the team, his son Kermit. Like, also so cute. The name Kermit.

Yeah. I've never heard of a person named Kermit. The most adventurous of his six children, Kermit had gotten his first taste for adventure on a 1909 trip with his father on an African safari. He had been 18 years old at the time, and Roosevelt had initially been really hesitant to include his son in this trip because it was going to be several months long, and he worried it was going to be a distraction for his son. from his studies at Harvard, because they're the Harvard family.

Harvard. But his son had reassured him that once he returned from Africa, he would dive right back down into his studies and buckle down on everything. And he was not kidding. He finished his four-year degree in just over two years, eager to get back into a life at adventure that he just had a taste of. After graduation, he set his sights on Brazil and had settled there for over a year making his own way. Learning of the expedition, Kermit, now newly engaged and eager to start a new

life with his fiancé Bell, was reluctant to join such a lengthy expedition. But he felt a personal obligation to join his father not only as a companion, but also as a protector. Roosevelt was now in his mid-50s, and despite still being remarkably fit and capable, Kermit was all too familiar of everything that could go wrong in the jungle and would have forever regretted his decision to forego the journey with his dad. If anything was to go south, he would have beat himself up for the rest of his life. The Amazon River Basin in 1913 remained largely untouched by modernity. More than two-thirds of the basin lies within the country of Brazil, the world's fifth largest nation, and many of the people who resided in the bustling, very populated Brazilian cities, had very

little interest or means or time to dedicate to explore its dense interior. The mighty Amazon River snakes through the northern section of the country and is navigable for nearly three quarters of its length. And to put that in perspective, that is equivalent to the distance between Bangor, Maine and San Francisco, California. Oh, wow. Okay. So this this is a large... Now I know what you're saying. Now you get it. But it has three thousands of tributaries that reach out to other distant parts of the country that were relatively unknown, and many of which had never been seen by non-Indigenous peoples. Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that

fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit redbull.com slash bright summer ahead to learn more. See you this summer. So back to the expedition that Father Zom is putting together because in Father Zom we trust for now. His intended route was relatively well known. Traveling along five of the best known rivers on the South American continent and would not be especially treacherous, albeit strenuous. So he's like, all right, I'm going to spend.

But he spent about a year putting this expedition together and meticulously like planning out the route and figuring it all out. And it would still be an adventure, but it was not to all these unknown parts that I just kind of talked about. They're like, all right, well, this is mapped. It's still the Amazon jungle. It's going to be intense. But at least we know where we're going. At least other people have been here before. Right.

Yes. We feel a little bit better about it. Roosevelt and the team was under the impression that it would. be a straightforward trip with very little danger as Zom's proposed route entailed, traveling along those five rivers, which were among the best known rivers on the entire continent, all of which appeared on even the most basic of maps that existed at the time. But what's that phrase about the best laid plans? Have you heard that? I'm not sure. The best laid plans. It's like a of mice and men thing, I think. They often go awry. Everything changed when an acquaintance of Roosevelt, who he met

on his lecture tour heard this proposed route of the expedition that he was going to be partaking in after his job was done. And then this guy compared it to what he knew of Roosevelt and his spirit for adventure and wanting to explore and being this like pioneer. And he posed a question that changed the entire trajectory of this trip. He said, Colonel Roosevelt, why don't you go down an unknown river? and Roosevelt's eyes lit up because beyond his long-held desire of adventuring into the wildernesses of the world and challenging himself in mind and body and spirit was the long-held dream of being a true explorer, not merely a tourist or a visitor, but a pioneer among the first to put a place on a map. He was soon presented with a handful of alternative plans and routes, and needless to say, he was

eager to pivot, foregoing Zomps several years-long preparations for what was newly known as Rio da Duvita, the River of Doubt. It was largely unknown, remained absent from all maps, and held strong as one of the remaining enduring mysteries of the Brazilian jungle. And this is coming from the guy who is like, do your thing, I'll be there. I don't want any part in planning it. And then he finds out the plan and he's like, someone else is like, wait, that's not cool. what if he did something new? And he's like, yeah. Change of plans.

And that's where they're already down here. They're already down in South America. Like it's already totally planned everything. And he's like, wait a second. I have a better idea. Yeah. That guy we talked to that said one sentence even though you've been preparing for a very long time. Imagine.

I'd be like my spreadsheets and would be clutching the pros. I'd be like, we can't deviate from the plan. I've been planning for so long. Yeah. So this river was dubbed the River of Doubt by Rondon, who had come across it just years earlier while working on another expedition team laying telegram wire. So this is somebody that is a part of the team. Thank God.

And he's the one who initially first, quote unquote, discovered it initially and knew that it existed. Even still, he knew very little about it and only followed it long enough to know that it deserved its own expedition dedicated entirely to mapping it before turning back. Like he found it during another expedition, followed it for a little bit, hoping to, you know, figure it out and then realized the enormity of it. It's like we're not prepared for this. No. We have to come back another time. Yep. So to the expedition's knowledge, no one knew its direction, its length, or where it led. Not the location or the quantity of hazards like waterfalls, rapids or whirlpools. In short, it was the complete unknown that Roosevelt was amped for.

He's like, oh, hell yeah. This is great. This is way better than the trip we had. Everyone else is like, oh, my God, I get doing the sign of the cross. Like, please help us. When Word got back to the museum about the change of plans, they were furious. I'm sure. This was not what they agreed upon and would have never done so.

Roosevelt admitted that the new plan was, quote unquote, slightly more hazardous. Slightly. To which the museum responded, quote, it may be said with confidence that in all of South America, there is not a more difficult or dangerous journey than that down the river of doubt. It's like actually it's not slightly more dangerous. It's the most dangerous. To which Roosevelt responded. And I just imagine this like slow, like snail mail like weeks later.

It's probably through telegram, so it's probably pretty instant. But he responded, quote, tell Osborne, I have already lived and enjoyed as much of my life as any nine other men I know. I have had my full share. And if it is necessary for me to leave my bones in South America, I am quite ready to do so. What about all the other people? It's like, if I die, I die, it's fine. It's like, hold on a second. We're funding this.

And well he did for Roosevelt to Roosevelt's credit he did tell everybody else like he held a meeting and said there's been a change of plans this is the new direction that we're going. You didn't sign up for this and I'm aware of that. So if you want to bail, you can bail. And nobody did. Yeah, but who bails? I'm an ex precedent. Well, that's like the biggest peer pressure I've ever heard. It's like I know it's a change of plans.

You don't have to go if you're not strong enough. But I'm going. kisses his muscle. But I'm going and I'm willing to die down here. Who else wants to die? Yeah. But you can leave if you want if you're scared. Yeah.

Yeah. Father Zom had officially lost control of this trip. And this new plan left them woefully unprepared and scrambling to adjust. Roosevelt set sail for South America in October of 1913, completed his speaking obligation and a separate hunting side trip. So we're not even touching on that. If you want to hear about that, you can read the book. But by Christmas Day, he had met up with Kermit and the rest of his team to officially begin the expedition portion of this whole endeavor.

The River of Doubt was so remote that it would take two months by boat, followed by riding atop mules to overland to reach the headwaters of this particular river. So they can't even get to it without months of travel. Months of travel first. They entered Brazil through the Paraguay River, which they then followed upstream for as long as possible before they would disembark and travel 400 miles through the wilderness until they reached the entrance to the river, a place where only a handful of men had ever reached before. And that handful is Rondon in his previous expedition. The team spent the first several weeks aboard the boat getting to know one another. Kermit's writings home to Bell

indicated he worried for his father, who felt he was misled by Father Zom as to the conditions in the jungle and what the journey was expected to be. Other members of the team were also concerned for Roosevelt at first, but the 55-year-old man the men initially doubted quickly proved himself worthy in more ways than one. He outpaced nearly everybody on the team physically. His spirits were high, he kept morale elevated, and functioned as someone half of his age. Despite the language barriers, they were also equally impressed with his tales of adventures and also his genuine interest in hearing of theirs,

and the effort he displayed in getting to know everybody involved. And again, these are people of different. A lot of these people are not American. So, yes, he is remembered as a racist because he did hold racist beliefs. But at times, he wasn't, he didn't display that here, if that makes sense. Yeah, I guess. Unless they're different. Because they're not, are they indigenous or black people?

You'll see that we're going to get into indigenous peoples. Okay. But these are non-Americans. But he believed non-Americans were not worthy or equal to be regarded as the same as Americans. Right. But when you're in another country where you're a little outnumbered, it's funny how those feelings. Oh, how the tables turn. Yeah.

You're like, oh, now I'm the minority. Like, never mind. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis,

Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. After over a month, the boat arrived in Tapiripoa, where they were set to disembark and begin travel on foot to reach this river. Ron Don had prearranged 70 oxen and 110 mules to carry their gear in supplies and to serve as meat. But when the team arrived, it was a hot mess.

Most of the animals had never carried a pack before or had been handled by people. They were not broken in. And they bucked, bolted, and panicked. And this caused a delay, a lengthy delay until they were finally under control and could carry equipment and serve their purpose for this expedition. The expedition had an extreme amount of baggage. Over 360 crates, thousands and thousands of pounds worth that was only expected to grow with the addition of collected specimens. Because again, remember, they're collecting things as they're going to. We already have a lot of stuff, but we're just going to be adding to it.

It was decided that the expedition would split into. It was too large and slow moving to move as one singular unit. The ox team carrying the larger baggage would leave. and have a bit of a head start, while Roosevelt and Rondon took the mule team. They journeyed into the Brazilian highlands and eroded plateau region of central and southeastern Brazil that encompasses over 580,000 square miles, over double the size of the state of Texas, and is marked with deep ravines, steep cliffs, and sweeping hills, landscape that varies from dense jungle to open pasture to swaths of desert.

While the time aboard the boat had its challenges, it was child's place, compared to this. The team fell into a routine. It was not uncommon to go nearly 17 hours without food as they plugged along. At times, especially along the dry desert portions of the highlands, parts of which were as dry as Arizona, water was scarce and the animals quickly deteriorated. When water would come, the dusty dirt trails would become sloppy mud pits, which proved difficult to traverse.

Before long, Roosevelt and Rondon's team came upon the bleach bones of mules. and oxen from previous expeditions that had died in years prior. A startling reminder of the presence of death. But what truly shocked them was the sight of dozens and dozens of unopened supply crates, scattered all throughout their path labeled Roosevelt South American Expedition. The animals ahead of them had grown so tired that they began bucking off their heavy loads. And with no way of carrying the supplies themselves, the men passed them. by, eyeing them longingly and wondering what precious cargo they may have contained.

Oh, they didn't even check to see what they were leaving behind. I mean, they checked a few things, but even still, they had no way of, they were at capacity. There was no way for them to carry that. Right. I'm just picturing if there's, like, things you really need in there. One would wonder. And you're just walking right by it. The foreshadowing continues.

The harsh terrain, difficult conditions, ration supplies, and food. started to wear down the men. Coupled with personality clashes and arguments, further compounded by illnesses like malaria and yellow fever, the expedition started taking on a more serious tone. Oh my gosh, malaria. Kermit was among those fighting malaria, with a fever of 102, and had riding sores covering his legs. He was barely able to stay atop his mule. Injuries were rampant, and all of the men were relentlessly pursued and engulfed by swarms of small biting insects, named, horseflies and small stingless bees nicknamed eye-lickers as they swarmed the corners of people's eyes relentlessly.

Rainy season was now full in swing and the downpours not only thoroughly soaked everyone and every bit of their gear, but made the terrain more and more treacherous for the animals. Men started dropping out, opting to still bail while they had the chance. The expedition was over a month in. Okay, we're like cruising through time. This has lasted a month. here a while. Yeah. But they were still in close enough proximity of known villages and outposts to turn back or find alternative routes out at this point in time. And many of them were taking that opportunity. It was becoming clear that morale was very low. Many of the men questioned their ability to continue the journey and most doubted the ability of the expedition itself to make it to its final destination. They had added over a hundred men to the team since they began throughout this journey, kind of onboarding people. throughout these villages and outposts and things like that.

And they varied from skilled surveyors, guides, additional laborers, engineers, and officers that would be necessary to keep the expedition afloat and successful enough to get to the point of entry to the river. But it was clear that cuts needed to be made. And those on the chopping block were the ones whose contributions were most at question. Several of the original naturalists, along with Father Zahm and Fiala, much to their dismay, bruised hearts and egos were let loose by Roosevelt, who was not alone in the feeling that they were unfit to continue on and were not bringing much to the table. Wait, the ones who planned the whole trip? Yes. He's like, you got to go.

Yep. I mean, I guess they didn't plan the trip that he last minute decided they were doing. And over time, they're realizing that the supplies and things. things that they, there was like, they packed hundreds of pounds worth of like olive oil and mustard seed and condiments. It's like, what are you doing? This is all a necessary weight. Why do you need that? And is not going to help us in a survival situation. So they were finding out throughout time and just like in their interactions and their work ethic and their contributions to the team. They just were failing in a lot of ways and they didn't want them. Like maybe these weren't the best

team members to bring on board and you're figuring this out a month into the wilderness. Yeah. So they were among the people who got cut. Cut throat. By early February, despite the drastic cuts to the team, the expedition was still suffering. The animals were dying left and right under the strain. Over half of them actually were dead. Wow.

And of those remaining, many of them could barely walk. This led to an even more generous parsed down of already thinned out supplies because there's literally not enough animals to carry that that gear and the ones that remain are very weak. So they ditched crates of specimens already collected along with the collecting equipment. Heavy tents, opting to share tents versus having their own. Ox carts, which were becoming impossible to pull any longer. Anything that wasn't deemed absolutely essential, with the exception of a few belongings, such as writing implements and books, were cast aside, just left in the jungle.

They were nearing the next part of their journey as they slashed their way closer and closer to the banks of the River of Doubt. But they were now entering an area in which they needed to be vigilant for another danger. So crazy because you just reminded me that they're not even at the River of Doubt. Do you see what I'm saying? Like this feels like it needs multiple parts. And I feel like I'm still not doing the story justice because there's so much detail that I'm omitting. Yeah. Where they were up to this point was visited by few foreigners before, which numbered in the hands.

handfuls at this point in time and history. And that usually came in the form of groups of men that worked in remote outposts laying telegraph wire. In fact, Ron Don had been part of those teams in the past and spent a large part of his career within the jungle leading those expeditions. He guided men into the most remote pockets of the wilderness, navigated the most treacherous terrain, and used his intimate knowledge of the flora and fauna to keep the men in his charge as safe as possible. But there was an element of the jungle that was largely out of his control, and that was the indigenous populations. Only six years earlier, he had come into contact with the most isolated groups of people in the Amazon for the very first time, and it did not go well. He and three of his men had

intentions of making peace with the group named the Nama Choiras, riding towards their camp with heaps of gifts, but they were greeted with a wave of poison-tipped arrows, one of which lodged right in the leather portion of his coat. Ordering his men to not return fire, they quietly turned around and retreated. For weeks thereafter, Rondon's groups were terrorized by the indigenous tribe of the area, mostly launching surprise attacks at night.

And his men were so scared so frequently that the men were terrified to even light a fire and fear that it would give away their position. Sounds like a fair concern if they're attacking at night. Not only were they being attacked, they had seen the result of other successful assaults. On more than one occasion, the telegraph teams, and Roosevelt's team, actually, had come across the graves of murdered Brazilian telegraph workers, soldiers, or officers. They were buried vertically with their arms pinned to their sides, with their chests and heads sticking above the soil and riddled with arrows.

Rondon's expeditions into the interior of Brazil became so infamous due to this danger in particular, people, were very hesitant to join. I mean, totally fair. Despite this, Rondon remained adamant to display nothing but nonviolence, kindness, and compassion to the Nambiquaras and other tribes that they encountered, no matter what. His mantra was, die if you must, but never kill. And it was drilled into all of the men that participated on his expeditions. I mean, that's really brave, but also on the other end of that, if you fought back,

what's the likelihood you're going to win? You're going to enter into this battle that you're not prepared for on terrain that you don't know against people who live and know this place. Like even if you did engage, you're not going to win. Well, I think that at this time, a lot of the other expeditions and explorers and militant groups that were entering this was a conquer. Like, we're just going to use guns and kill everybody. And don't ask questions and we don't negotiate.

Like, yeah, they have poison-tipped air. and they're very well-versed in the jungle and things like that, but we're just going to come in obliterate everyone that gives us an issue. So his tactic was the complete opposite. Retaliating against any forms of violence was an absolute no, even if their comrades were injured or killed. Through Rondon's efforts, he eventually gained a peaceful relationship with the tribes, learning their dialects and welcoming them into his camps.

He was acutely aware, however, of the tentative nature of their relationship. The tribes were extremely wary of foreigners. Rondon and his men, other explorers and missionaries alike, and acted quickly, severely, and without hesitation, even over simple misunderstandings. And they gave an example in the book about how another group, like a missionary was in this area of the jungle. He also had a peaceful relationship with one of the tribes, and he gave like Advil to one of the indigenous, I think it was a child that was having severe headaches.

And the child died a couple days later of something else, not from the Advil, but they didn't understand that. They're like, you just poison our kid. Yeah. And they slaughtered him. So it's just like they, the relationship is so tentative. It's like, okay, you're good and we're good, but that can change really quickly and we have our eyes on you and we don't trust you.

and for very valid reasons, right? So. Yeah, I mean, if you have these other groups that are coming in and... The persistence Rondon displayed in never deviating from nonviolence was the glue that held together their shaky trust and was largely the only reason the expedition had any chance of passing through this area unharmed. Rondon was so committed to the fair treatment of indigenous populations, he publicly criticized and debated those who were not.

His outrage at the belief of many others at the time that, to quote, U.S. Army officer George Armstrong Custer, quote, the only good Indian is a dead Indian, resulted in the formation of Brazilian's Indian Protection Service, the country's first agency dedicated to the protection of its native inhabitants, and Rondon was elected its first director. So this is like a lifelong passion of his, is the equal and fair treatment of indigenous peoples. And it goes far beyond just him having a peaceful relationship with them so he can, pass through their territory, you know. So, and that's a whole other thing. I mean,

Rondon is an amazing historical figure and he, he does a lot and his legacy is crazy too. And we'll probably touch on it later. But he, he's great. I've definitely heard of him before, but I don't know the extent of his story. In contrast, Roosevelt did not share this sentiment. Early in his career, pivoting back to Custer's infamous line, Roosevelt responded, quote, I don't go as far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the 10th. When he later became president, his views changed slightly. He became more sympathetic to the injustices and cruelties that they faced specifically in the United States, but believed that America's goal was to absorb indigenous peoples into

the American population, aka, strip them of their culture, their ways of life, their language, believes history, etc., etc. He also didn't do so great when he hired the head of the Department of Indian Affairs as a man who was not in favor of even extending citizenship rights to indigenous populations in the United States. In regards to his views of indigenous peoples on the expedition, simply put, if it came down to it, he would not be abiding by Rondon's non-violence orders. He followed Rondon in his methods of showing good intentions as they traveled throughout the forest, allowed different indigenous peoples to come into camp and curiously handle his belongings and inquisitively touch his facial hair and his clothing, but he was prepared to defend himself, his son and his team if needed. Writing the tribes were, quote, lighthearted robbers and murderers.

Kermit wrote to Bell of how different they were in both appearance and behavior and made note of how sad he felt for them at the thought of their inevitable conquer. On top of the heightened nerves and worry of attack, tension within the team was also running high as morale dipped and conditions worsened. After splitting ways with Father Zom and Fiala and taking stock of their remaining supplies, Roosevelt and Rondon had their first true realization of how woefully unprepared this expedition truly was. Leaving the prep work to those two men resulted in a half-hazard, uninformed, and very backward stock of supplies. And as a result, rations were adjusted. And like I said, the team is undergoing a lot of addition, subtractions, it's ebbing and flowing. It's hard to keep up with. But at this point in time, the team consisted now of about two dozen people.

And the 16 of them that were doing the hardest labor, you know, the porters and people who are lugging the most equipment, would receive a larger share of their already slim supplies, leaving Roosevelt, Kermit and the other officers ration slashed. a decision that Roosevelt was very adamant about sticking to. The discovery of the unpreparedness and the true like, oh shit moment of realizing what they were actually equipped with, put a very real time clock on this expedition. If they were to survive, they needed to not only make it to the river, they had to successfully navigate it and discover a route out of the deepest rainforest on Earth. And now they had to do it fast. The group now found themselves at the spot of Rondon's furthest reached location. Up until this point, despite the remote and wild nature of the terrain that they had traversed so far, Rondon had been at least somewhat familiar with it, geographically and culturally,

but now as they looked into the inky, turbulent waters of the River of Doubt, that small semblance of comfort was gone. They were at the point of true unknown, and also the point of no return. Once they launched their boats into the swift currents, there would be no turning back. And speaking of boats, because perhaps I didn't mention this before, while they were abandoning items, they also left behind, of all things, their boats. No, stop. How did they leave behind their boats for a river exploration? Let me tell you. They began with way more than were necessary, including two 800-pound motorboats. and a plethora of different canoes and various watercraft.

But as the men stood at the shores of the river, they were without a single one. As a solution, Rondon purchased seven dugouts from the Numbaquaras. They were massive, weighing over 2,500 pounds each. It's like, okay, we can't take these two 800-pound boats. But we'll get these ones. But we'll get these ones. It was because they legitimate, they couldn't carry them anymore. I mean, that makes sense.

How are you going to carry those through the terrain you were talking about before? And they did send a couple with people, including Father Zam and Fiala and other people who turned back with some of those in other tributaries and rivers at certain points. That's how they turned back. They used boats to get back. Gotcha. But still. And Rondon was like, okay, well, I have a solution. We'll just buy some once we get there.

Because I know at this point in time, there's a small village. at this point that I've gotten to, I'll secure us some boats. How did they buy it? I don't run on had either money or trade or the relationships that he had already established. Yeah. I imagine, I just don't imagine them using money, but maybe I'm wrong. Right. I don't know.

Whatever is monetarily valuable or valuable, I should say. Yeah. You know, to what they need. Gotcha. Trade is probably the answer there. trade more of our supplies. They're like, we can't carry it anyway. You can have it.

So, yeah, these dugouts were massive. They're about 2,500 pounds each. They were clumsy, near impossible to maneuver in the water, and laborious to portage. Because remember, this isn't just like, let's go and it's going to be smooth sailing. They have to take their boats in and out of the water, navigate around things. They have all their supplies still. I mean, not everything. still have a ton of stuff. Several of them were damaged upon purchase and their buoyancy would

hardly make due. Fully loaded with men and supplies left mere inches of space between where the men sat to the surface of the water and the multitude of dangers it presented and concealed. After a few days dedicated to further consolidation, rearranging and parsing down of supplies on February 27, 1914, Roosevelt, Kermit, Rondon, and their men climbed aboard their dugouts, grabbed their paddles, and pushed offshore into the waters of the River of Doubt, and straight into the uncharted and unknown. Ahead lay adventure, disaster, new discoveries, near-death experiences, and murder. They couldn't know all of what was to come, and to whom, they just knew the only way out now was through. And that is where I'm going to leave you for part one. I knew you were about to end it just by the way you were talking the last couple sentences.

I was like, oh, no, she's stopping. She's doing it. Especially when you said, and murder. Murder. Yeah, so that's that on that for now. Well, I'm hooked. I'm in. I need to know what happens next.

It's already gone horribly wrong. And nothing bad, really bad has happened yet. So I'm intrigued. Good. I'm glad. So we will see you all next week for part two, hopefully of two. But we'll see. I mean, there's a lot going on, but I definitely recommend this book.

It's so good. And there's an interview I'll link in the episode description with the author of the book. She sits down and really speaks not only about the book, but I mean, she took, I think she took 10 years to write this. And she visited a lot of these places. which is now the Pontinal region of Brazil. And she met with, it's so cool. She met with not just the descendants of the Numbikwaras that we're talking about,

but also other indigenous tribes that come into the story later. And they all remember this expedition because it's like legend in their tribes, you know. Interesting. And just, it's just so interesting. And she's so passionate and knowledgeable. about this expedition and she goes into a lot of detail. I mean, that interview is like over an hour long. So if you don't want to read a 500-ish page book, you can watch that if you're interested

in learning more. But yeah, so there's that for now. Cool. Well, we'll see you all next week for this episode. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye, everyone. Bye.

Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark Book Club, live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show,

please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark. You're listening to this podcast. know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressives save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions,

and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers serve. who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building.

Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank.