National Park After Dark - The Morbidly Curious Book Club x NPAD

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

We have a special Halloween episode for you this month to celebrate spooky season. We’ve decided to release what would have been a subscribers only episode :) This week we are joined by Patricia, better known as Patches, the creator of The Morbidly Curious Book Club. What began in 2021 as a small online space for readers to share dark and fascinating nonfiction has grown into a worldwide community of more than sixteen thousand members. From plagues and cults to witches, forensics, and haunted places, MCBC celebrates morbid curiosity without limits.Together, Cassie, Danielle, and Patches bring some of their favorite stories and personal book recommendations to you, spanning witchy feminist fiction, eerie survival tales, and historical narratives that forever changed how we see the natural world. We also talk about how the club chooses its titles, the growing network of local chapters, the monthly subscription box, and the MCBC companion podcast that keeps the conversation going with the authors behind the books.We wrap up tackling important literary questions like:• Hardcover or paperback? And what kind of person breaks the spine of their books? Join the Morbidly Curious Book Club! Follow MCBC on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape today at Expedia.com slash visit Scotland. Hello, hello outsiders. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We have our bonus episode for you this month, which is really exciting because we're doing something a little bit different. Yeah, we have a guest.

We do have a guest, which have we done that for outsiders before? I was just thinking that and I don't know. I'm sure people will let us know. But I really truly don't know if we've done just like an exclusive Outsiders Only interview collab episode. And this woman is like a long lost friend. Yes. Yes.

And for everyone who has been listening to the podcast and is always waiting for book recommendations, this is like the episode. that you've been waiting for because this is going to be an episode that is just filled with book recommendations because today's guest has built an incredible platform dedicated to exploring the darker sides of knowledge where curiosity meets history, science, and the macabrecia, also known as Patches, is the creator and host of the morbidly curious book club. And she is joining us today to give us all of the insight on her favorite books. And we have brought a couple of our big recommendations for you as well.

Yeah, what began in 2021 as a small group of 10 readers sharing nonfiction recommendations has exploded into a global network of more than 16,000 members and counting over 50 local chapters exploring topics like, we've got death, we've got cults, we've got plagues, witches, we've got it all. And all of the strange parts of history that often go untold. Yes. Patches has built this entirely morbidly curious world around this book club. And it has, I mean, she has close to 17,000 subscribers in her book club, which is unheard of for a book club. I mean,

there are very few that have those. Well, Oprah. Yeah. There's patches and there's Oprah. And I think Reese Witherspoon or something. Yeah, and Reese Witherspoon. But this is huge. Like, no shade to Oprah and Reese Witherspoon. I don't. know I'm not a part of those worlds and I don't know what types of books they're reading and I'm sure they have read amazing titles. But Patches has created this world of exploring books that like every single one were like, okay, yes, I would love that. Not like, oh, this person that's famous recommended it. So maybe I'll give it a try. This is like someone just like you or I that are just totally interested in all of these weird obscure topics and just can't get enough of them.

Yes. And I think what makes this book club really cool too is that she picks nonfiction books. So all of them are true. And all of them are really interesting, which is kind of our bread and butter. Just with the podcast, all of our stories are true. We always lean into the dark. And she's found the books that really cover that. And like you mentioned before, in such an array of topics. as well. And she also has her own podcast where she'll interview the authors. And we have quite the crossover between us because she's had guests like Andrea Langford on there, which of course we've had twice on the podcast now. And she's spoken with Mary Roach, which you, of course, have talked about her books quite a bit. And just looking at her list on her book club, as soon as I was looking at it,

I was like, this is Danielle. I was like, she's read half of these books that are on. here. Yeah, I feel like, and we talk about her too, Caitlin Dowdy is like as soon as, you know, Patches mentioned her name. I was like, oh my God, our Lord and Savior. And so I think Caitlin Dowdy is one of those authors who is just in this world also of kind of strange, obscure, fascinating topics that aren't super mainstream, but the people who love it, love it and who get it, get it. And that's what this episode is all about. And we are going to talk about her book club, how it got started, how it operates. But she also came with recommendations outside of her book club, you know, that include fiction and nonfiction. And we do some like, would you rather stuff. And

it's not very structured as far as an interview. It's more of just a conversation about loving books and wanting to recommend different, you know, titles that go over different pieces of history that we're interested in. And we think you are too. You will be too. Yes. So for this spooky season, our bonus episode, we are bringing you the macabre dark history, whatever book recommendations that we can bring in talking to all about it. This is fun. It's casual. It's exciting. So without further ado, we would love to welcome Patches to National Park After Dark. We are so excited today to have you Patches. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I got so many messages after we announced this and people are like, you know, my two favorite people are collaborating. So this is a match made in heaven, honestly. I love that. Actually, that's so funny because when we announced it as well, we had a lot of people that were like, my favorite book club. This is amazing. I love it. I love it. Good. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you reaching out. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. We are huge. We are avid readers on the.

podcast and a lot of our listeners are too. And we know that if they have not heard of you yet, they are going to be very excited to be introduced to your book club. Yes, yes, join us. Yes. Just to get this all started, can you tell us a little bit about how you started the morbidly curious book club? Yeah, it was right after COVID. I was one of those people that took up reading when I was just sitting in my apartment. I lived in Los Angeles at the time. And when I lived in Los Angeles. I actually started up a what I now consider pretty cringy true crime TikTok page where I would go around to certain locations in Los Angeles filming certain places and things. Cecil Hotel, the place where the Black Dahlia was last seen or her body was found, stuff like that.

And I just accumulated over time so many nonfiction books trying to do research on certain places in L.A. Because it's just one of those places where you could throw a rock and wherever it lands, there's a piece of history, I'm sure there. Somebody died here. There was a tragic event here or whatever. And I, you know, started reading a bit more. Didn't have too many nonfiction book clubs that I saw, but I wanted to read more nonfiction. So starting at the book club was also just mostly me trying to get through some of the books that I had purchased. But yeah, in 2021, I had just moved back to my home state here, North Carolina. And I really wanted to read true crime because that's mostly what I had.

But I also had a couple of books on death. I had a couple of Caitlin Doty books. I had a couple of things. Oh, my God. Our Lord and Savior. Queen Caitlin, yes. Love her. She's the best. And I actually, I did not, you know, bring any of her books to talk about today or her like Mary Roach or anything like that because they're ubiquitous. People know who they are, but shout out to them, of course. And so I had a couple of the books that just like weren't exactly true crime. So I just landed on the morbidly curious. And, you know, I was super stoked when we, I did it mostly online because I don't know how many people here in the South would want to read this type of stuff. So I did online. And I was so stoked when I hit 10 members because I was like, oh my God, yes, people want to read. really weird. Can I cuss on that? I can cuss on this. Of course. Weird shit. Okay. People wanted to read weird shit with me. So I was super excited. And now we're very close to 17,000 global members. And it's just absolutely blown up. And I'm, I'm so excited that people get excited about nonfiction.

That's not, that's not the most popular genre out there or popular thing out there for people. So I love proselytizing nonfiction. And I hope more people, you know, join the book club and read some fun stuff because it's a way to show it's not all boring it's not just history class it's entertaining it's fun stuff yeah so so since 2021 you went from 10 members to over 17,000 were you at all surprised by that or in any way like oh my god these are my people and where have you been yeah both for sure i you know i i was not um obviously i'm super excited that that many people has joined since, but I definitely wasn't anticipating that. That wasn't the goal. The goal wasn't like I want, you know, to start this big massive cult. It was, I just, I want more people to read

nonfiction and I want them to read some weird stuff with me. So I was stoked and, you know, I'm grateful, but it is, you know, fortunately I did have that following on TikTok, which helped, you know, get some of those members. But like, every day I check and I'm like, what's happening? What have I done? What is it happening? I know. It's like, you know, a monster at this point. But it's great. No, I'm grateful. I'm really grateful and I'm excited to just see the number keep going up.

Yeah. So, I mean, that we have a lot of questions about the book club in general. But just to kind of like start at the beginning, you said it kind of got it start with going through your TBR list of like, I have all these titles. I really want to get through them. So you focus on nonfiction. Is there any rhyme or reason to the titles that you're going to. select now or is it purely just I want to learn about this and now we can all learn about it

together or do you try and have like some sort of method or whatever because I was just looking through your past reads and quite a number of them I have either on my shelf or have read or really want to read. I'm like are we? Did we just become best friends? Yes. We did. So I was just curious if there's a method to the madness or if it's just pure curiosity. Yeah, when we were smaller, you know, we used the site bookclubs.com and there's a way for members to vote on kind of what we would like to read. And once the book club got bigger, you know, I eventually just, you know, started picking the books for people. And eventually now the book club is actually a book box subscription service. So it got to the point where the bookstore that I work with to create these boxes, they need to know picks kind of ahead of time so we could tell the publishers, hey, we need like a shit, shitload of these books. So it eventually became me just selecting. the stuff for people. But there is a method to it where I try and I obviously like I mentioned, you know, cults. I really want to cover cults. I want to cover death. I want to cover true crime. I want to cover all things under that morbid spectrum. I want to cover the paranormal. I want to cover

you know all this. So I try and at least just even it out. And it's typically stuff that is fairly new, at least in the past year or so or later. I don't try and pick stuff that's like super, super new to where it's like not accessible for people to get it potentially at the library. But yeah, The method is mostly just me making sure I don't have two books on serial killers like back to back or two books on cults kind of back to back to back. It's just, hey, this sounds interesting to me. And now I'm morbidly curious. It's gone to the point where we do have a team of people. And I do have a couple of people on my team who kind of help me find stuff. And I'm already planning out to 2027 at the moment. So it's mostly just us figuring out what would work with the book club. What's worked in the past with the book club? What have people really liked previously? Has this been an author that we've read from already that people liked? So the method is just mostly like what peaks are interest, what we think people will enjoy, and also spacing out the topics. Is there a genre of topics, I guess, that has surprised you that people have gravitated towards more, whether it's true crime or culty or? Colt. People come for cults. Yeah, I can see that. People come for the cults. They love to talk about cults, which is great. And, you know, I'm trying to think of all that we have planned next year. And I think there's only one cult.

and I feel like people are going to be upset about that. People come out for the Colts. And I have a couple of friends, you know, that I, in real life that really wish I picked more like Mind Hunter type stuff, like in the mind of the serial killer type thing. So there's people that want that as well, but Colts seem to be the biggest genre that people want to read about. That's so funny that you say that because when we did a podcast interview with Michelle Dowdy, who wrote Forager and her experience.

living and growing up and a cult and eventually leaving. And I swear of all the books we've recommended, people really rallied behind that one. And I saw so many people being like, we bought the book, we bought the book. I had friends who like texted me after and they're like, can I borrow your book? And so it's interesting that you say that people kind of rally around cults because we've had the same experience. Yeah, I've had that book for a while too. My shelves are organized by genre and I have at least three different sections, just cult books. It's taken over the nonfiction of it. It's so interesting. I think it's so interesting because it's so secretive, you know, unless you're part of it, you don't know. And then when people come out of it and they kind of give you a tell-all,

it's like, wait, what's happening? And a lot of them are still ongoing, which I think is what creates the curiosity as well. Yeah, we don't read too many memoirs in the book club, despite those being pretty popular in the nonfiction space, unless it's a memoir of like, hey, I left this cult. Here's what happened. That's typically also where we get our cult stuff from is, hey, here's my crazy experience leaving Branch Divideons or whatever. Kind of backtracking just for a second. You mentioned that you have a box subscription for your book club now. What does that look like for readers and members? Yeah, it started with my local bookstore, Fred and Junes, in Moresville, North Carolina, one of their locations, they have two now. But the Moorsville location, the owners,

you know, not only reached out to ask if I wanted to host an in-person chapter meeting, because the book club started on Zoom. And then again, once we got to too many people, we started doing a live show. And then we eventually even branched out further than that to chapters, because people in like London wanted to meet, but they were never awake at 7 p.m. at night to view those. So the bookstore not only knew me through the chapters that I host there, but they were like, we're really thinking about starting up some bookbox services for some of the book clubs that we host just as a way for people to get the book club picks sent right to their door and not to like, you know, toot my own horn or anything, but there's been at least a handful of times where we've, the book is like become

completely unavailable. Like you cannot find it on Amazon. You cannot find it at Barnes & Noble. It is sold out everywhere, bookshop.org. Like publishers have, I've gotten a, there was an author we picked last year and she said that source books, the publisher was like scrambling to print more copies or like just get more copies out to people. The best problem for an author to have. Really, yeah. And she was very thankful, but she was just like, damn, how did you do that? You know? So there's been times where we have sold out this past book in the mouth of the wolf by Catherine Corcoran. It's hard to find. So it was just a way for book club members,

if they wanted to just, it's basically the price of a hardback with like tax and, you know, shipping and all that. And you get the book. You get some goodies that my friend, Annalise kind of prints out. You get like a bookmark. You get like a bookmark. and a little postcard with a letter from me. The authors have been sending assigned book plates, and sometimes you throw in a couple extra goodies in there as well. And that's for hardcover months. So the months where, like this upcoming one,

where the book only released in paperback, it's like some of Mary Roach's books have only released in paperback in the United States, you actually get two books. So you'll get sometimes a backlist, morbidly curious book club pick or whatever the publisher has on hand. That is kind of in this similar vein as the book. that we're reading. So it's just a cool way for people to get the picks that right to their door without even having to think about it. And to be clear, you don't need to be a part of the book

subscription to be a part of the book club and join the monthly meetings. You can come hang out. If you have no idea who the hell I am, you have no idea what's going on. It's going to be a weird conversation, but you can come hang out. Yeah, it's just, it's just an easy way for people to do that because something I obviously want people to do as well is go to the library, go support your library. like if you can get the book from your library and that's also a point of contention too with some members it's like you know well i can't get at the library because everybody in my city is reading the same damn book but you know i just i try and make sure that everybody gets has access to the book in some way shape or form so yeah and then the meetings you did mention that it has grown and blossomed into multiple different chapters internationally at this point um so is there can you explain for people who are curious about this i know a ton of people do virtual stuff, but you did mention that there are local meetups as well. So is there is the best way to go to like your website or something to search chapters or to maybe start a chapter? I don't know, depending on if wherever you are, there is in one. Yeah, that'd be great. You know, I definitely

recommend that even for, you know, I'm in the Piedmont of North Carolina. I host chapters of bookstores that are literally only about 30 minutes apart from each other, but it stills on different nights. He gives people access to go meet in person because there's some people who, really don't like the whole virtual thing. Or there's people who have maybe a little bit older and don't understand the virtual thing or even, you know, they just, they don't really get it. They don't feel like their voice is heard. And that's something that I try and stress with the book club, especially because we're reading some pretty dark topics is I want everybody to be heard, which actually transitioning out of the Zoom call into the live show was a bit tricky because I really like,

even if the Zoom call ended or lasted two hours, I really wanted people to have their voice heard. But it just got to a point where I'm like, this is way too long. But if the live show thing doesn't really work for you if you would like to meet like-minded people because I see a lot of the chapters like go do stuff together they'll go on hikes together they'll like go hang out and do reading sprints together I love it too I love seeing it so if that piques your interest yes it's on just the morbidly curious book club.com and you're able to see what chapters exist through our book club's site and if you'd like to start when we'd love that we just got a inquiry for Nova Scotia Anchorage Alaska like all over the place you would be shocked if you know you'd think like

there's not going to be one in my city. look it up. You have no idea. There might be one there. But also, yeah, the international stuff is super cool, like Melbourne, Australia, London and all that too, because I want this to, I want this to grow. I really do because I just think it's an underappreciated niche that people can tap into. And one of the one I was looking at your website was one of the first chapters I saw was Boston. And I was like, you're here. Yeah. You're up here. You're in New England. Boston's a big chapter. Is it? That's exciting. I could see that for sure. I think that New England. maybe it's because of the location, but because there's so much history and a lot of it is really

dark here. I think that people kind of gravitate towards it. And we're in the same boat as you were, of course, I mean, with our podcast, all of our stories are true. And most of them are dark. And we very much heavily lean into the nonfiction reads. But going into that, we know that you brought it is spooky season. It is reading season always. And we, know that you brought some recommendations for people that we would love to hear. I did. I brought too many recommendations, if you will. No such thing. Oh, no. It's like we do this all the time. It's like we talk to each other every day. It's like you guys have a podcast or something. Well, I'll just start with spooky season. I have them all sitting right here. I'll go ahead and

just give a shout out to the book that we're reading this month, which is Ghostland by Colin Dickie. find me. It's slowly become one of my favorite nonfiction books of all time. You know, I think when I initially picked it, people were suspecting, including myself, that it would be one thing because the, you know, the byline is in American history and haunted places. So I was expecting just a book about ghosts. And I'm kind of agnostic towards ghosts myself. I've had some really weird experiences, but I also will totally eat up ghost adventures. You know, it's fine. I love Zach Bagan's. But I was suspecting this would be a book kind of more about just, you know, ghost stories that we know and love, like from Sarah Winchester all the way to, you know,

Lisa Lamb, who died at the Cecil Hotel. But it's actually more of an exploration of why we believe in ghosts and what that means, but also what ghost stories actually mean and how ghosts at one point were people too. And some of these stories are incorrect entirely. Like what you think you know about Sarah Winchester is actually fairly wrong. And, you know, I think it's, it's a masterclass of like what it means to have history correct, especially now when it's telling history. is more important than ever. Let's make sure we do it correctly. And a lot of these ghost stories are rooted in racism and bigotry and misogyny and some of these just awful deep-seated places that we just don't really look at anymore. Instead, it's just a fun, cool ghost story that we hear

about on a tour somewhere in like Savannah, Georgia. So I think it's very important for people to read. And I love his writing. And I will say a lot of the negative reviews, people are upset that he does debunk a lot of stuff or he's not a believer himself. He's a little bit more of a skeptic, but I think it still works. So highly recommend. I agree. I read it in the first two days after. We're like, oh, this is what we're reading this month. Great. And well, yeah, I listened to the audiobook and I flew through it. And I loved it so much. I agree. And I also bought it, obviously, because I could tell within the first like two chapters that this is a book that I wanted to actually sit down and physically reread at some point. So I agree. I really enjoyed that one. And I can't

wait to talk about it later. Yeah, I'm so excited for that too. I'm halfway through it. I'm also listening to it right now. And so I don't know everything yet, but I'm really enjoying it so far. And I think everything that you just mentioned, it really touches on. I'm in a section right now that's deeply talking about the history of like haunted Indian burial grounds and how problematic and controversial that is. And it's, I think so far what I'm getting from this book is that it's raising a lot of, it's raising a lot of questions that I never really asked before. And it's, it's very thought provoking, which I'm really enjoying. Yeah. And I'm glad he, you know, talks about that because that Indian burial ground almost trope now has become so embedded in some of the shows. Like I love parks and wreck,

but there were a couple episodes where you were like, what are we doing here? Yeah. Yeah. What is this? Yeah. And we won't go too far into it because that is our book club book this month that we will be talking about in depth later on in a couple weeks. So let's not, because I have so much to say. So I will reserve my thoughts. But yes, I can co-assign that recommendation. Sweet. I just read this book and I'm curious of either of you have read it. So this is a fiction book. It is called The Gracier by Kim. Ligit. Have you read it? No, but if I had a dollar for every time somebody told me to read that book, specifically my friend Stacey, I'd be rich. I'd be rich. Here's another dollar. Is it new or not? I don't believe. I didn't look at the publication. It came out a couple years ago, I want to say. Okay. Yeah. It's, it's, it's been out for some time, but man, so many people tell me to read that book. I've never even heard of it. It is someone, one of our listeners actually recommended it to me because I was looking for a book. And I, the title didn't like get me at first, but I was looking up like

everything and I wrote it down and I look it up and then I read the description. And I was like, what is this? So essentially what the book is about, it is one of the most intense like books I think I've ever read. And it's not true, but it feels like it could maybe be. But the grace year is about when you turn 16 years old, women from this village town are sent into the wilderness to, be rid of their magic because they believe that women hold this very dangerous power to them, that they need to go out and be rid of it. And they send them out. But during this period of time, not everyone makes it back alive. And there are actually people out there who are hunting them as well. And they have to make it through this year out on their own at 16 years old and come back. And when they

come back to the town, they're rid of their of their powers and they can become good wives, essentially. It's so, okay, it's like the handmade's tale, but like worse. Yeah. Okay. This is like the exact book that Cassie reads in like, like, as far as like the topic and like the themes and elements of that like I can easily see why this is like one of your, like dark as in like yellow jackets, like creepy dark. Have you seen yellow jackets? Love yellow jackets. Yes. Um, kind of like they're out in the wilderness and like some things happen. It's more dark like the Handmaid's Tale, I would say. Because it's, I think what is so gripping about this story is that a lot of the magic that it's leaning into for women is actually the,

the true power behind women and how women in real life are have been villainized and portrayed as dangerous throughout history. I mean, when you look at, I mean, Salem Witch trials is the first thing that comes up, especially in spooky season, right? None of those women were witches. We were just burning women alive because we were afraid of them. And then there's all the stuff about trying to take land and whatever. But I think what is so gripping about to this book in particular.

is how real it feels and how much they really hone in on women's relationships with other women and the true power behind what being a woman is. And I just, I don't know, it just felt it's like utopian, but it feels real. And it's just, yeah, it's creepy and it's gross and it's dark and it's scary and it's really good. Okay. Yeah. Loved it. I've been meaning to read it.

It's not nonfiction. So it feels it. But it feels like it could be. Of like, well, remember when everyone's like, the handmade's tail is not real. And now we're like, it feels like it's real. Yeah. But anyway, okay, Patches, you can go next because you have more than us. And then I'll go.

Well, actually, on that note, you, Cassie would probably love this. I do have a fiction recommendation. It's one of my favorite underappreciated authors. And that's Megan Giddings called The Women Could Fly. And kind of similar. Again, criminally, criminally underrated book. I think all of hers are. She wrote Lakewood and she had another book come out earlier this year that I still need to read. But it's a very timely novel kind of set in a world where witches 100% exist. They exist and they're a thing, but they're, you know, completely being prosecuted for their crimes and actions. Any strange behaviors are seen as such as, you know, witchcraft and they're being arrested and thrown in jail, killed. We're following Josephine or Joe, who's a black woman, whose mother has actually disappeared and there's been a lot of rumblings about her mother being a witch. And she was like, you know, all these terrible things. She went and made another family. She like abandoned her daughter, whatever, she was actively being accused of being a

witch. And actually the state where they live ensures that once you hit age 30, you have to be married and you have to be, you know, thinking about having children or having children. And Joe was 28 and she doesn't want either of those things. She really doesn't want to be married. She really doesn't want kids and she's kind of in a tough spot right now because if you're not married or any of those things by 30 the state actually you're put on a list and the state monitors your actions yeah and so i can relate to that part of not wanting kids and i actually got to meet me Megan gettings a couple years ago and just gush at her about how much this book meant to me and that was great because again i think it's very timely but we follow joe of course she's trying to follow

but find her mom and you know go through all these things escape the state and and And like a lot of these things in here just make you itch and feel gross because it feels real at times. And, you know, I think like you were saying, too, there's a lot of things that we think are so fiction. Like, there's no way, there's no way that these things can happen. But like these things happen. And so I think this is a really timely, provocative book that more people should read. More people should read Megan Giddings period. But this was a really touching experience.

And I just related to it on a couple different levels for sure. well i think you're right it sounds right up my alley yeah uh check it out and i feel like i would also relate to her and when you say that the state tracking them to have children and say it doesn't feel that far off from real life just when you look at some of the stuff that's being pushed right now of like women have children we're not populating the earth and up i'm like we have billions of people here we're good um we're fine we're more than okay we have more of a population than any other species we're good. Literally.

Yeah. So it's super important. Definitely check it out. All right. Well, I think that just got on my list immediately. Just like made a note really quickly. Love her stuff. Well, my first recommendation, I have a nonfiction and a fiction.

I'll go with nonfiction. And it is called The Killer Whale who changed the world by Mark Lerrin Young. Ooh. It's very short. compared to the books we usually read. You know, it's just under 200 pages, super quick read. So I picked up this book when I was in Salt Lake City. I went to the Natural History Museum and they had a pop-up exhibition on orcas and

killer whales and just kind of their history. And this book was in the little gift shop that they had. And it chronicles the story of a orca named a Moby doll that was the first. first captive killer whale to be publicly displayed in the history of the world in 1964, and how his gentle nature helped shift public perception from seeing orcas as these sea monsters. And it was crazy because in the exhibit, I didn't know this, but killer whales were depicted before jaws. Orcas were the great white sharks and the sharks of pop culture. Like they were vilified.

Like they were these human eating, flesh eating monsters that lived in the deep that would come after you and tear you to bits. And it was just they were the sharks of what we see vilified in nature today. I think, I mean, people are really afraid of sharks because of jaws and stories like that. But at one point in time, that was Orcas. And just kind of going throughout time of how that kind of started to change. And it started to change with this particular individual. And he was caught in Vancouver and put on display. And it was just, it's just all about his story.

And it's quite sad as any story about captive wild animals tends to be, especially species that are so sociable and intelligent and just amazing and just, I mean, God, it's going to pull at your heartstrings, but it's really, really interesting because I think we're starting to see the shift away from captive killer whales and captive marine mammals and animals in general and kind of seeing the evils of that. But this is the beginning of it. And it's not that long ago. I mean, it happened in the 60s. So I loved this book and I read it on a flight. Like it's super quick.

Yeah, just wrote it down. That sounds great. Yeah. Yeah, I loved it. Never even heard of it. Yeah, it's definitely a story that it was just interesting because it's something we just kind of take for like, oh yeah, killer whales and dolphins and things are in, you know, they were in sea world and in different marine parks and it's problematic and we probably shouldn't do it.

but like when did that start and why and what is the story behind that and that's what this book is so really interesting it does sound really interesting and sad it reminds me of years ago i was dating someone and they took me to see worlds and it was the worst idea i was so depressed the entire time i was like get me out of here but i had never been and i really didn't i had heard the controversy around it but then seeing it in real life because we went to one of the shows where they had um they had a whale that was performing and i just and they made it splash and the crowd was laughing and we left because i was sad i was i just i couldn't watch it it was like this is where they live that that's the pool it lives in and it's tiny and there's an ocean right

there and i was just so depressed um that we left uh pretty quickly well i hated it This, it's so sad because this, when they, so they accidentally caught this individual. They were, basically, they were going out to kill an orca to use as like a real life inspiration for a, like an art model that they were going to install in a museum. Like, so they wanted an anatomically correct example to utilize. So they were going to kill it. And so they were using a harpoon. But the way that it got caught, it got caught like in its blubber. So it basically like hooked him, but he was still alive.

So they're like, well, I guess we'll, we'll bring him in. And he was still alive. And they, he was a younger orca. He wasn't a baby. But he was still living with his pod. And his pod followed him and literally called to him four months trying to like, yeah. No. Because he was in this enclosure that was right, like, it was adjacent to the sea.

That's so... They were just sitting there and watching him. Oh, my God. It's awful. It's so awful. Humans are the worst. Yeah. But read this book.

Read it. You're going to love it. You're going to love it. It's like, if you really feel like crying, pick up this book. Please do. Okay. Somebody else, like, moved with something better. Not this deck.

Let me think it. Well, okay. So, one that I've finished. finished fairly recently that was a pleasant surprise. And I've actually seen this author talk twice now to speak twice now at a couple of different events. It's called The Secret History of Bigfoot. Field Notes on a North American Monster by John O'Connor. That book has been, if I had a dollar for every time that book has been recommended to me. It's so good. Well, here's a thing. I also want to put it on display because it has horrible reviews for no good reason, in my opinion. And when you

look through the reviews. I think some people were just a little upset similar to how Colin Dickey is about ghosts. John O'Connor doesn't necessarily believe in Bigfoot. He's not like making fun of people who believe in Bigfoot, but he is traveling to all corners of the U.S. to try and figure out who believes in Bigfoot, like what demographic of people, politically, racially, all of that. Why we believe, like, what's the point? And why that's okay if we do. And I really like how it's called field notes on an American monster because I think a lot of the reviews, too, were saying, like, he's a little sporadic with his thoughts. Well, he's kind of just out there, you know, looking for Bigfoot himself. I mean, he's just, he's in a tent and he's hearing weird noises and he's,

you know, comparing Bigfoot to birding. And I think, you know, it worked for me personally, but I guess some people it didn't really work for. He's hilarious, though. There were so many moments where I audibly cackled out loud. And it's so funny because, again, I've seen him speak twice, but he's a very, like, quiet kind of to himself guy. And you're like, did you, did you actually write this? Because the personality I'm seeing in person is not matching the pages. So it's very funny. But he's a journalist who's just interested in like how people tick type thing. And it's, if you need a good laugh, it's, I mean, hysterical. So I definitely recommend it. I myself have been Bigfoot hunting as you do when you're bored in North Carolina. Didn't see the guy. But it's interesting

nonetheless because you're like, we're looking for this massive ape creature. What exactly does that mean? Like walk me through why you think this exists and, you know, it really connects to like modern day conspiracies and how that can be harmful. But also just having a big foot, you know, statue in your front yard is fine. Let's just dive a bit deeper into why we believe as a society and kind of like where this came from. Great book. Okay. I're speaking Danielle's language. I mean, I feel like it's a sign. I swear that book has come up all the time. And I'm like, okay, yep, noted, noted.

If you could do the audiobook on that one, too, the audiobook is great. The guy who reads it really matches the correct tone of the book. And it worked out. Great. Okay, well, before we move on, I need to know just very quickly about your experience, Bigfoot hunting, because we kind of just skated right past that. I have some friends over in. a very small town.

They were at the time, Valdez, North Carolina, if you are familiar with Hickory or Lenore area, that, like the foothills right before the mountains start in North Carolina. Over in Valdez, there's this plot of land where this guy, he owned this massive plot of land and kept claiming that he was seeing something out there. And my buddies at the time were adamant of catching this thing. And they started a YouTube channel, And they're actually pretty popular now.

They're pretty big. You'll catch them in all the major circuits. And, you know, I was in film. I went to film school. And a couple of the buddies that I knew from film school also were going out there and hanging out and filming stuff and trying to basically like, because what's the easiest thing to make as a film kid is some creepy found footage stuff. So we were all out there on a golf cart in the dark listening for something. And honestly, like in North Carolina, there's probably a hundred different creatures you should be more scared of than finding. Bigfoot. You know, there's all kinds of shit out there. I heard weird heavy footsteps. Like,

I heard something running at one point that really spooked me. But at the end of the day, I don't think he's out there because it's interesting how it's migrated. Like, Bigfoot started in like the Pacific Northwest. But I mean, who's to say? The Appalachian Mountains are full of creepy shit. So there's no telling. But yeah, I mean, we just were out there until like basically dawn trying to find this big little ape creature. And, you know, listen, they make money off of this. He escapes once again. He escapes once again.

You know, good for him. He's doing great. I honestly am jealous. So, you know, I wish him the best, but did not show up in Valde's North Carolina. Darn it. Darn it. Next time for sure. Yeah.

We'll see. Cool. Well, going into my next book recommendation, going back into the witchy theme. I picked The Once and Future Witches by Alex E. Harrow. Have either of you guys read this one before? I have not, but I have seen it. No, I've seen you reading it. You have earlier this year.

Yes. So Alex E. Haro is one of my favorite authors. I would say I love the way she writes. And I've read several of her books now. But I really, I thought that this one was fitting just for the time of year. But also I just really enjoyed this book. It's longer. I mean, it's over 500 pages, so it's a bit of a longer book. But it goes into, it's like envisioning the suffrage movement with witchcraft intertwined with it. It's a lot of woman power in it. And it follows three sisters who are struggling with the lack of women's rights, but also struggling because they are actively hunting down women who are a part of witchcraft and their learning their own um they're kind of learning their own background in witchcraft and coming into their

own as well and it's just a very it's very thought provoking again it feels it feels real because of the target towards women on it but it also it really highlights a sisterly bond and how complicated and special it is which i really loved and it it just goes into kind of societal expectations of women as well. And then it integrates the witchiness, spells. And a lot of it, again, is, is it witchcraft or is it the power of women in real life? And I really, really enjoyed that of this. And also, I really like, I really enjoy learning about the suffrage movement in general. So I thought that it was a fun twist that she actually incorporated witchcraft and the suffrage movement. And yeah, I really, really liked it. I enjoyed it a lot.

And it's been on my list for you should read it. It is. And one thing I love about her books, which has nothing to do with her writing, is how she prints them, how she has them printed. They're so fun. Her books are so beautifully done. And like this one, it's old and witchcraft. and she had the really thick pages printed on this one. And then she has the Starlinghouse one where she has her pages are printed in purple. And she just like every book that she has, she has like a special detail that she adds to how she prints them, which I think is really cool. That's something I loved about Ghostland was the font. I know you guys listened to it.

But I don't, the font is like unlike anything I've seen. It's a weird. I don't know if you could see it well. But it's just like a really old, almost ancient-looking font. Well, it reminds me, I've been, as one does, spending a lot of time in cemeteries recently. And especially here in New England with older headstones, it reminds me of the style of inscription in a lot of the headstones around here. Yeah. I think that was on purpose.

I respect it and appreciate it. I love when there's just like a little bit of that personality included in it, especially in nonfiction, right? because it's like, we're writing about history, but like, let me add a little bit of me. Flair. Yeah. Totally. Let me see what I got. I guess I'll recommend one of my favorites because this author actually has a book coming out tomorrow, which I'm super excited about.

I think if you were to ask me what my favorite book of all time is, I'd probably tell you station 11, but it's very closely followed up by Leach by Hiron Ennis. And I don't know how to appropriately talk about this book without potential. spoiling something. So all I will say is is one, I think it's a perfect book. It's great for spooky season, especially where you guys are where it's definitely colder than where I am, but definitely in the colder months. Okay. So we are in an unknown but cold part of the world in like an unknown time period. We don't really know where we are, what time it is. It feels very futuristic, but with older, it's almost a steampunky feel, right? Where we're like, where are we? We're following a doctor who has been sent from this place called the Institute, it's capital I Institute, to go as far north as they can go and check in not only on the baron who oversees this chateau, but the previous doctor's predecessor has mysteriously died.

And he's trying to figure the doctor that was sent, he's trying to figure out what exactly happened, but they discover something more nefarious is at play. there's like a mysterious infestation with the old doctor. And that's what I can tell you. It's a really interesting. It's very mysterious. Interesting exploration of gender identity and consent and like medicinal consent. It's it covers like by the end of it, you're like, my friend finished it recently. And she was like, I've just been staring at a wall because I really don't know what to do with myself.

fantastic book though it's unlike anything i've ever read and i actually am trying to include that in like you know i try and read it every it's like an annual thing i try and read it every year because i find something new every time and i love when books do that so this is definitely one of my favorite books of all time if not my favorite and yeah highron ennis has a new book coming out tomorrow called the works of vermin i think is what it's called on october 14th i'm going to be up right and early at my local I'm stoked. Finally, new work from Hiron. But yeah, it's a weird one. So it doesn't, I don't think it works for everybody. So if you read it, despite me gushing about it and you're like, I don't get it. I totally understand. It's one of those are people like, I gave it five stars.

And I'm like, yes. And I say, I gave it one star. And I'm like, I understand. I get it. Don't worry. But yeah, it's a weird one. That's kind of like, it's not my recommend. I didn't recommend it. But well, I've recommended it in the past just in passing. But it's not like my formal recommendation that I brought next, but all fours, that book that came out this year, that is like, I usually am not a review reader. I don't really care to know what people think of books because tastes are all over the place and I just, I find that I never really fall neatly into the bell curve of like what people think of books. So I just kind of dismiss them. and don't really, I don't read them.

But anyway, I did know that all fours was a book that people either loved or they hated and there really wasn't an in-between. And I loved it. I thought it was very interesting. I know it. I can see why it's not for everybody. But I enjoy books like that because, I mean, we just read one for book club the other month, last month that we were, I don't know if people like hated it.

It was just like people were confused by it, a kind of type of thing. Smother Moss we read. Oh, yeah. That was a weird one. Yeah, kind of just like, huh, that was interesting. But I think those are the books that are the best because they're quite memorable, even if they're not for like the best reasons, you're going to remember that book because it made you kind of think a little more than the average book.

But, um, totally. Totally. Yeah. Well, my other recommendation is, uh, bury our bones in the midnight soil. Loved. Loved. And I think it's for a couple of reasons. Uh, so V.E. Schwab is the author of the invisible life of Adi LaRue, which was insanely

popular, which Cassie and I read together, uh, over a year ago now. had differing opinions on. I was about to say. Yes. I had differing opinions on. And then when I saw this book, to be completely honest, this was one of the first books that I picked up completely blind. I think I recognized the like style of the cover and maybe the author. I didn't realize until about halfway through.

I'm like, oh my God, this is the same author as Adi. Did you not like Adi Larue or did you like it? I liked Adi Laru. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I loved the concept of Adi LaRue. When I read what it was about, when I read it what it was about, I was like, this is genius, this is amazing, I want to read this.

And then when it actually came down to reading it, I felt like it was really repetitive. And I felt that they had already, the author had already gotten the point across of what the book was supposed to be. the timeline and what she was struggling with. And then I kind of felt like it was on repeat. And I also felt like the end, I wanted so much more to come of certain relationships, less to come of other relationships. And it just, it didn't do it for me. But I loved the concept. Yeah. I haven't read it yet. I need to. See, I liked it. And I agree with Cassie about the, I feel like you could have taken 200 pages out of that book and gotten, the same takeaways. Like, it was a little long, but I think that was part of the point because of

the nature of what the book was about, the repetition and the repetitive and the same thing over and over. And yeah, I don't disagree with you on that. I do think that that's a valid point, but I just, for me, I'm like, I know she's in this life forever, but like, I don't mean to be in this book forever. It's like, other things to do. Yeah, but well, back to Barry our Bones and the midnight soil. So yeah, same author. And again, I went in completely blind. I had no idea what this book was about when I first picked it up, which I think was awesome because generally I have a somewhat of an idea. But yeah, and I also love books that intertwined varying timelines and characters and stories. And this one follows three different women, one in the 1500s, one in the 1800s,

one in the 1800s and one in 2019. And they all intertwine and it is about vampires, which I think everyone knows by now. I didn't. Shocked when I found that out. I'm like, oh, now I'm really into this because I love vampire books. But yeah, I really enjoyed it. And it has, again, it's kind of like a little bit of women power, but not overtly. and I read it in the audiobook version, mostly, and I loved the voice actress.

That makes a huge difference. I loved. I was so into it. And like she changed her voice to, you know, to reflect the different characters, but not in a annoying or like dramatic way that can kind of take away from it a little bit. You're like, oh, God. You know, this was really good. I loved it.

I, for it being, you know, over 500 pages, I, I did it pretty quickly. So, yeah, I think it's like, I feel and I fear that if you didn't love Addy Loeuvre, you probably won't love this one because it's similar. Okay. Okay. I will say one thing that I did enjoy, I think that she's a great writer. I mean, the way she writes, she writes really beautifully and she sets the same. seen really well. And I didn't, I didn't hate Addy Laroo. I enjoyed the storyline. It just

wasn't my favorite. You know, it's not like I look back on that book. I'm like, I hated it. It's like, I'm glad I read it, but it just dragged on a little bit. I'm also glad it's over. And yeah, just if there's something to know about Cassie and I is that like we are so similar, but also different in especially reading of our. tastes. So that's why like when we recommend things, I'm always like, you totally should read it. Cassie, you'll hate it. But everyone else, I think you'll love it. And vice versa. So it's just, it's funny because I kind of already know that, I'm like, Cassie, this one isn't for you. I got a couple of friends like that too where I'm like, I love this. Don't come anywhere near it.

It's like you won't. You will hate this. Yeah. I love. I love. That's okay. Yeah, totally fine. I mean, there's some... That's the point of books, right? There's some stuff out there that they love that I hated. You know, and I'm reading a book right now for a book club, and I'm spite reading it at this point. It's just terrible. And I don't want to be that one person at book club that hates it, but... I have to ask, do you ever not finish your books? Oh, yeah. I'm a big fan of DNFing, a book. If you're not feeling it, I mean, there's

there's been a couple books where like two pages in i just know i'm like this isn't going to be for me i'm not going to waste my time there's a million books behind me you move on to something else yeah this one i'm i'm finishing because i've heard the ending is crazy i got to know and if i'm going to go discuss it at a book club i feel like i need to give it a chance okay yeah but right now it's like i don't even want to i don't even i have mixed feelings about dnfing and it's a struggle you have to finish a book it's like i need to go to therapy or it type of thing. It's like it's a deeper rooted thing. It's not about finishing a book. It's like about finishing something I start. Sure, sure. Feeling guilty or like bad about not doing that.

So I'm working on it. No, you know, it's one of those, it's part of reading. You know, if, if you're not feeling it, I think you should feel more than comfortable than setting it aside. I've actually started Addie Leroux like two or three times. And I've gotten in like the first chapter where she's sitting there playing the piano and I just never got past. Okay. So maybe you just never got past that. We call that a soft DNF. I like, I like what's happening here.

Just not right now. Yeah, I'll come back to this. I'll come back to this. I have a lot of books that I have not finished. But I'm kind of in the same boat as you where I'm not afraid. If I'm not enjoying something, I feel like there's so many other books that I would enjoy that I just can't. And sometimes I'm like, you know, how you just said Adi LaRue, like, I'm kind of enjoying

this, but not right now. Maybe I'll come back to it later. And I feel like at this point, I want to read it because I need to have an opinion on it, because literally everybody I speak to, it's like, I hated it. I loved it. I hated it. I loved it. And I'm like, well, damn, I need to figure out how I feel about it. Yeah. I live writing the pro. I mean, I love a good book with pros. I get the writing is good, then I'll probably enjoy it, even if the story is kind of all over the place. But I don't know. The magical, which is maybe why I didn't like smother moss as much. The magical realism stuff for me sometimes is really hard to love. I'm not a huge fan of magical realism, but there have been a couple exceptions.

I think you could probably categorize Leach as magical realism, but it's more of a parasitic, like medicinal or some, I don't know, I wouldn't consider it as such, but some people might. I don't know. It's not my favorite. All right. There's a few exceptions. Yeah. On the topic of women, I'm going to recommend one of my favorite books.

of all time, which is notes on an execution by Danya Kukovka. I don't know if you guys can see the plover of tabs that I have in this book. I posted a picture of one of the pages and somebody was like, are you underlining all the vowels? Are you underlining every word in that thing? I'm like, honestly, I could because this is, in my opinion, a perfect book. We are following a couple different people in this, but we start with a man named Ansel Packer, who is actually on death row. is about to be executed in like under a day. I think it's around 12 hours. He's about to be executed. And he's working on his like manifesto. He's trying to get his like voice heard. But he, without a doubt, did the crimes. He admits to it. He knows what he did. And he's killed women.

And he's, you know, he's a serial killer. He's actually also kind of behind the scenes working with one of the guards, female guards to try and get out. But that's kind of like a very small subplot. But this book actually follows the women in his life. That is, he has had an effect on in some way shape reform. We follow his mother. We follow the twin sister of his wife. And we follow a woman that he knew at a very young age who was now at homicide detective. And I think it's just a brilliant novel about true crime and how we consume true crime and how a lot of the times we can probably name Ted Bundy rather than however many victims he had. Unfortunately so, we can name cult leaders. We can name people who've done horrible crimes. But unfortunately, when it comes down to

like naming the people that have been affected in one way, shape, or form by this person's horrible acts, it's really hard for us to do. And it's just spotlighting rightfully the victims and who, you know, who he hurt in some way, share, or form. And it talks about womanhood and violent men. And I just think it's a phenomenal book. It's tough. It's not going to be a fun beach read, but I definitely would recommend notes on an execution for sure. It sounds really interesting. It's I'm, that's like when I'm mentally adding to my list.

I feel like I'm adding one to your list and then I'll go and add one to your list and then go and go and go and go back and forth. Yes. Do you just want me to blow through the last? I had only have three left. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah.

Keep going. I'll do the next fiction book and then I'll go back into nonfiction. This one also is kind of tough, not great reviews either. And that's awful. It's called Little Eyes by Samantha Schweblen. And this one I read a couple years ago and a, It's stayed with me ever since. And it follows this toy that has been unveiled worldwide.

Think of them as just like stuffed animals. They just look super basic, but their eyes are actually cameras. And they're called kentuki's. And they work one of two ways. And you can either own or operate a kentuki. So if you were to go purchase a kentuki off the shelf, that means you own it. And now somebody somewhere, you don't know where, you don't know who is going to be assigned. to watch you through the camera lenses.

It's super creepy, but it's also like known. It's not like these cameras are secretive, like secretly hiding in these stuffed animals. It's like you purchase a Kentucky to be monitored or you can like apply. I think it's like online where you're just like, I want to monitor somebody's Kentucky. It's creepy. Is there a reason that people want to be what? I don't get it. Some people, some people want companionship.

Some people want to be watching. Some people do really weird shit while they're being watched. Some people like that. Some people just need like a, it's like they treat them like animals. Like they're just like a companion like a dog or a cat. Okay. And some people like to spy on other people. Like it's a really interesting book on like it's a masterclass of surveillance and like social media almost where we have this like weird lens into somebody's life. But the whole time it's uneasy. And we just we follow people from all over the world and why they chose to purchase those kintuki's and why they chose to purchase those kintuki's and we. why they're watching people and like the crimes that happen because of such. Interesting. It's a very weird novel. It feels like black mirror. It's very black mirror, yes. Okay.

I, yeah. I love a black mirror type book and this is for sure. Okay. I just feel like I put on like a sweater that like is making me uncomfortable. It's, it's. It makes you itch. Yeah, like I feel like I'm like, I'm interested in this, so I'll try it on, but I don't feel great about it. It's very uneasy.

but I think, you know, it does, times that it goes there where you're like, I don't, I don't really like where this is going. I don't like this. But like the feeling of that to me, I do enjoy sometimes. Or if a book gives me that type of reaction, I love it because I'm like, yes, I love feeling uneasy at times, especially during spooky season. I don't think this is a spooky season book, per se. I mean, there's not like any ghosts or anything, but I think it's, it's a really important book. Okay. There's something to be said about a book that can make you like, icky. Ikey. and feel it in such a way. I mean, kudos to the author for being able to come up with a concept and write it in a way that you leave being like, oh, what was that? Well, to actually feel something like a bodily reaction to words on a page is whether it feels good, bad, or in between, like, that's an accomplishment. And I get the draw of the book for sure. I'll keep it in mind but it's down here

on my list. It's a weird one and I totally understand if you're like based off of that you're like I don't think this is for me I do if you can stomach it I think it's a really interesting. I'm envisioning a gremlin for this so there's two different covers. I'm seeing a Furby it's kind of so they really I think that's what I was thinking

you're on the right track you had one Oh, yeah. Let's probably still have those furbies. I never got rid of them. But this is the U.S. cover, which is a bunch of eyeballs on it that kind of is creepy. But the UK cover is actually just like the stuffed panda bear. Oh.

Oh, okay. So that helps with the visuals of it. But it's a weird one. I understand the negative reviews for sure. But I think it's such a interesting novel. And the first line is absolutely crazy. Can you read it too? The first thing they did was show their tits.

See, okay. I'm drawn in. Like that's what I like. These girls at a slumber party playing with their kentucky and they're like, I'm going to flash the camera. Okay. I'm back in. Crazy shit happens after that. Yeah.

I highly recommend it, but don't push yourself past your, you know. Okay. Your limits. Back on the cultish topic or the culty topic, I will recommend cultish, as you can see also. Oh, see that everywhere. I see that. I mean, also. Is a brilliant book.

If you're just at all interest, people ask me like what cult books they need to read. I always tell them to start with this because it's actually the language, literally called the language of fanaticism. It's about why we join cults and how many cults there are out there that we don't realize. She's pissed off a lot of people in CrossFit and, you know, places that. Is the ultimate cult? Doesn't she have a podcast? She does. I think, is it words a lot?

She has a or something. I don't know. She has a couple of different podcasts. I think she started off with one called Word Slut, and then there was one, maybe sounds culty or something like that. Sounds like a cult. Sounds like a cult. Maybe. She's just fantastic.

And I had her on the podcast recently. I'll probably upload that one in January when we read a book about The Love Has One Cult. But it just helps you understand, get a basis of like, okay, before I go into this other book, because I think unfortunately when we read, books about cults and when we consume that type of media our first instinct is like what the hell were they thinking like what do you mean you just like followed this guy blindly and he like made you do all these horrible things you married this guy on top of like eight other women like what are you talking about like it's we get so judgy i think when it comes to to certain aspects of of why people join cults and i think that's kind of cruel to like you know blame people for wanting to find a place

where they belong. So this is, I mean, she's a, she's a linguist. So she talks about like, okay, here's what this person was thinking at that time and why we probably shouldn't judge because at one point, you might have done this. And whenever I had her on the podcast, she had just gotten married and she was talking about how like the whole wedding industry is a cult. And I'm like, okay, I need to like spend like 10 minutes talking about that really quick. Do tell.

And cults are everywhere. I mean, we talked about book clubs even and how that can be culty. So I think this is a great place to start. because we get judgy and we should not. I mean, I'll say that this, that book I see everywhere and it is very enticing. And it's the perfect example of how picking the right cover can do so much. Yes. Because that cover gets me almost every time.

I'm like, God, I got to get this book next time. Like, I'm so intrigued just based off visually looking. Yes. You know. I agree. And I'm kind of bummed. I bought this years ago. course when it was released in hardcover, but the paperback just came out and the color swirls are

slightly more pastel. And I kind of like it a bit more. And I don't need another copy of this book. But I'm crazy enough to purchase it. Yeah. For sure. And then last, probably if not my favorite, I said this about Ghostland, but this might be one of my favorite nonfiction books that we've read for the book club and I've read ever. It's one of the more unique, one of the most unique nonfiction books I've ever read. And it's Unmask Alice by Rick. Emerson, LSD, Satanic Panic and the imposter behind the world's most notorious diaries. And those couple of those words in there, LSD and satanic panic, I'm like a moth to a flame. Like I was like, you know, give me this book. Also this cover. Like, I mean, it's so creepy looking. So I don't

know if you guys, we're all around the same age, but I don't know if you guys remember the journal books that were released by Anonymous. The author was titled Anonymous. They were called to Go Ask Alice or Jay's Journal. Do you remember those at all? No. No. I hadn't either. So these came out in, I believe, the late 70s or maybe even early 70s, where 79, a diary rattled the culture setting the stage for a national meltdown. So it was right on the precipice of the satanic panic. And it was labeled as a psychiatrist's journal entries of one of her patients. And her patient was using drugs. It was like also on the precipice of the war on drugs. And, you know, she was talking about how LSD was terrible and all these. horrible things were happening to her. And eventually horrible things did happen to her. She wound up like overdosing or dying or in some way she performed. And it was just used as to perpetuate the narrative of that were on drugs. And like so many characters show up of like how this came to be. But it spotlights ultimately who that anonymous woman was releasing these books. And we find out that

she was not a psychiatrist. She was just this older Mormon lady in Utah who happened to to have connections with like Art Link Letter and Nixon and they kind of as a way with the war on drugs to push this narrative and also satanic panic later on when it came to some of the other books that she released. And it's just a phenomenally written book that, I mean, he covers so many different corners of this time period and he somehow makes it work. And I had him on the podcast a couple of years ago. And I think we spoke for like five hours. Like I just could chat with Rick and he sent me an email recently. I need to get back to him. I could chat with Rick for just hours. He was such a cool guy. This is a fascinating book. And I don't think it's one of those books where you need to know that much about Go Ask Alice or Jay's Journal or any of these other books. I think it is interesting if you did. There's a couple of people that I talked to that I talked to. They were like, I read that book when I was in high school. It's so weird. I never knew that it was like some, you know, lady who was just writing these thinking that, you know, people, everybody thought she was a psychiatrist. Like everybody thought this was real. And it was. And it was. not. So I think either way, it works. Highly, highly recommend. It is longer, but it's totally

worth it. Totally worth it. Okay. You're convincing me because I don't know anything about this. Adding so many to the list today. You're creating a huge problem because my TBR list is also out of control. That's what I'm here for. I'm here to just make your TBR list longer. Well, kind of going into, because you just did mention that that's one of your favorites, if not your favorite book that you've read for Book Club specifically. So I was just kind of like reviewing some of your past titles just to see, like, get an idea of what you guys have read in the past and kind of get a taste for what, you know, the club is all about. And I just pulled a couple of titles that I was like, God, I love, love, love, love. Yeah. So Killers the Flower Moon.

Phenomenal book. And I know it gained a lot of popularity with the release of the movie, Leo's movie. And I am always, almost always in the camp of the book is way better. Couldn't agree more with this one. Loved that one from here to eternity going back to our Lord and Savior. Queen Caitlin. You know, those little like prayer candles that usually has like somebody on them. I would totally buy one with her on it.

If anybody has a hook up to one of those, please. Please. First of all, her YouTube channel. Love her out of this world. Lily styling my hair after her. I know. I'm like, you got pretty similar vibes. And I've been, okay, so you know her new book that she's working on.

Yes. And I tried to get her on the podcast, but they told me that she was too busy with said book, but they would try and get her on when they're doing, you know, PR stuff. So fingers crossed for me because. Exciting. I could die happily after that. Yeah, my God. She just released like this video, actually, I think yesterday or the day before on her

Instagram about like one of her editor's notes about like describing corpse wax and like how it might be like too, too much for the reader. And all the comments were like they're clearly not aware of your demographic because we're here for all the corpse wax. Yeah. So I am just like I am. So Cassie, just so you know, Cassie's just like. Cassie's just like, what is happening? What book are we talking about? I haven't read her books. Yeah, so she has several, but the one that she's writing right now, she's writing, it's about the Titanic, but it's about the Carpathia and the, which was the boat that kind of

came to collect the dead. And it's about the aftermath and the dead and the deceased and what happened to the victims of the Titanic. So it's another kind of look at the Titanic tragedy. And I swear to God, she's been, like when she, like, when she. announced that she was writing this book. It was like three years ago. I'm like, perfect. Can't wait. Yeah. I mean, I know it takes. It is my Roman Empire. Yeah. She's just so, the way she writes is so approachable. She's a former mortician and she has just like that perfect wit when it comes to writing about death. That's so digestible. It's so easily accessible. It's so fun to read despite what you're reading.

And her book from Here to Returnity that we read, she actually did go to my alma mater. She went to Western Carolina University, which has a body farm. And I loved seeing that. When I saw Colleen, North Carolina, and I was like, no way, you know, like rubbing my eyes. But she's just such a good writer. I mean, very similar to Mary Roach and Erica Engelhoft and, like, some of these authors where, like, they have that perfect blend of humor in science where you're learning stuff, but you're having a good time.

Yeah, like one of her titles is called. will my cat eat my eyeballs and other questions about death? Great marketing. Great marketing. It's just, it's anyways. So I was just like curious to see. I mean, obviously from here to eternity is great, but just like if you are as hyped for her upcoming one. I'm stoked. I'm hoping I get an arc or something or get her on the podcast. That would be that would be it. I'd be done. I can hang in my hat. I'm good. I got to air be her. Somebody else take over. And then over my dead body, love it, own it. We just did an episode about how cemeteries are, we're the first public parks. And obviously that touches, that book touches on that. And I really enjoy that book as well. And then Trail of the Lost is an episode that we did with Andrea. We had her on the podcast and read her book. And we actually read her first, she's been on the podcast twice because her first book. Ranger Confidential. We read one of the first books we ever read for the show.

Yeah. I love. Yeah. I have it. I need to read it. She's great. She's great. And so was Greg Melville who wrote Over My Dead Body. He was he was fun to talk to and I appreciated his stance on it. You know, as he's, you know, in the reserves, but as a military guy writing about some qualms that he has with, you know, certain cemeteries. And it was, it was a refreshing book. So those are all ones that I'm like, oh, I've read and the butchering art, I read, of course, as well. But there was one book on here that I'm like, oh, I really want to read this because we covered on our other podcast Watcher Cook. We covered Francis Glessner Lee. And you had a book on here, 18 Tiny Death, the untold story of the woman who invented modern forensics.

Bruce by Bruce Goldfarb. Yes. That's a great. It's such a fascinating book. And it's so irritating because it just shows yet again women being swept under the rug because she really paved the way for forensic science. And I guarantee you, nobody knows her name unless they read this book. So he was great. Had him on the podcast as well. He was hysterical and he's been to some of the sets and he's seen some of her work. And it's, so it's an interesting one. I would recommend it. It's, again, a piece of history that we need to be telling. Awesome. Well, We want to do a quick little, like, would you rather? Okay.

Let me get ready. It's super, super, it's just like. You adjust my pants. Yeah. No wrong answers. Okay. But I will judge. Oh, yeah.

I'm scared. Okay. Hardcover or paperback? I'm a hardcover girlie. I'm a hardcover girlie. Yes. You are. I have paperback all the way.

I don't mind either, but I just, when I'm an annotator, I like to annotate my books and they just, it's easier on a hardcover. Paperback sometimes I feel like I have to get really intimate with it and like it's like lay on it. That's fair. Okay. So there's like a practical reason for that, which is, yes, totally acceptable. I too am a hardcover person. How do you feel about that this isn't a what do you rather?

This is just a I just need to know for my own sanity. If you were to have a self-cover book. Like so. How does this make you feel? How does that make you feel inside what she's doing? So it depends. I, it depends on the book.

If I'm just reading it, I typically don't do that. Anitating though, I do have to crack the spine if I want to get to some of it because it like, it, like here's my, you could see these.

These aren't cracked. Granted, they're smaller. Yeah. But I don't, I don't like to damage. actually here's what it is. If it's fiction, I don't like to damage it even if I'm annotating it. I will if I have to. Paperbacks for my nonfiction reading, all's fair in that. I will bend it, break it, sit on it, drop it in the lake. I don't care. For some reason, it's just like I approach it differently. So yeah, I don't know. I'm a little bit of both. I'm a little bit of both. I prefer not to unless I absolutely have to. Let me say that. Oh, and yeah, just for people who are like straight up listening were kind of just what Cassie is doing. Cassie does this thing that gets under my, it gives me like,

I think paperback. She's in half. Paperbacks are meant for folding is what I think. And I love to hold a book with one hand. She is a one-handed reader. She is for sure. I like to bend. And I just, I don't know, there's something about when the spine breaks.

I will say, I, so. Sacrilege. It's, I don't love when I, when I do crack the spine, the book like creates its own bookmarks almost where like those, it automatically opens to those pages. And that kind of bugs me a little bit. But I, I get it. I get both sides of the argument. Okay. So you're Switzerland in this. I'm Switzerland in that. Okay. Totally fine. Um, okay. Would you rather have dinner with your favorite author or your favorite character? Oh gosh. I probably say author. I would love to have dinner with Caitlin Doty.

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to have dinner with her, like Mary Roach, or one of these characters, one of these people, and talk about really weird shit because I feel like I don't get to do that. People don't want to hear my weird topics in real life

when we're eating food. I get called on that a lot. I'm like the TMI friend where people like TMI, but I'm like, nay, no such thing. Tell me, whatever you need to tell me. I don't care what it is.

So sometimes I get dinner and I just start talking about stuff and my fiance, Chris, we'll have to be like, Trisha, we're eating. We're eating. And I'm like, it's not that big of a deal. Those, I feel like some of the authors that I love would totally be fine with some of the things I would have to say. Even in some of Mary Roach's books, she talks about having dinner while talking about, you know, surgery, something like that. Yeah. And you've had her on your podcast. So you kind of. Yeah. And I just met her in person at the Bookmarks Festival. So I technically have done that. There's no food involved. But I totally would have a meal

with her because I would feel accepted. Not that I don't in right now, but I'd get to be more myself. Yes. There's another layer to that. Okay. All right. I mean, Queen Caitlin, I totally understand. Okay. Would you rather dog ear your book or never be able to mark your place? If I don't mark my place, I'll never find it. I don't care what I'm doing. I'll dog ear. I don't care. I'll dog ear all day. Some of these are dog-eared for sure. Yeah. I need a place marker. This is actually a bookmark.

I use the weirdest things for bookmarks. This is like a movie ticket. I did the same. I do boarding passes a lot. Receipts. We get a lot of books and we're out on our travels and stuff. So usually our boarding passes or like sometimes my luggage tag or something. My snack receipt is a very, yeah.

Hair clip. I'll do a hair clip sometimes too. if I really am in a pinch. I just like clip the page. I will say I love buying used books that have old, like, boarding passes or like old bookmarks in them or photos. I found books with, like, photos in them. I keep them. It's like a little.

That's cool. It's like a story. My trinkets. My things. My things. Okay. What's another one? I think I have one more.

Oh, I have two more. Okay. Would you rather have your favorite book adapted into a movie or a television series? Ooh. I'm trying to think some of my favorites have been adapted. I mentioned Station 11 earlier. I haven't watched that show, though. I started it, and it was so wildly incorrect than the actual material that I stopped watching it.

But a movie, I think about on Killers of the Flower Moon and how long that was, because there's so much source material. So I guess I'd say series, because you have more time to do with what you will. So we'll do series. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to say I was disappointed in Killers to the Flower Moon. That was actually one of the only movie.

So Cassie and I were actually abroad. We were in South Africa when it came out as we do. And we had it was a, we had a break actually between trips between South Africa and we were going over to Madagascar. And I'm like, this is one of those movies that because I loved the book so much I had had my eye on forever. And I'm like, I can't wait another two weeks until I get. at home, like, I must see this when it releases. And so we went to a theater in South Africa to see it. And it was one of those things that it's like, I didn't, if I purely just watched that movie to watch it, I would have enjoyed it a lot, I think, despite its length. But because of the book,

I just, I was like, oh, but all of this, like, I feel like you're just, despite how long it was and like how good of a job I think it did getting to the real root of what that story was about, there was just, I mean, it's impossible to translate unto film, I think. It is. And I think, you know, the right people were behind it with the right, you know, intent. And I think, you know, I've been very vocal about how the book was better. And that's how I typically feel with a lot of stuff like you said earlier. But there was a couple of people who brought to my attention. It's like, well, this movie did a lot of good for native communities and native actors. And I totally I'm not discrediting that. I just do think it could have been slightly better with those native voices more in

mine instead of Leo DiCaprio. Leo DiCaprio got way more screen time than he deserved. I took Christopher to say, we read it last October when the movie, or however long ago that came out. We read it in the same month that the movie came out. And I brought Christopher with me, and he fell asleep. Okay. And it was too long for him.

But he wasn't, he has read the book. So he was like, I'm curious. I don't know anything about this. I'm going to go into this completely. And he was like, my God. This is too much. I wish I would have read the book. So yeah, you know, I get it. But I'd probably say TV series to get more in there. That's fair. Okay. Last question here, which I mean, I guess could go either way. Would you rather physically read or listen to the audiobook?

I do both. I hate to be Switzerland on all these questions. I do both a lot of the times because I, my attention span, I can't just do one of the other typically. especially reading. I can't just read a book, which is crazy sounding, because my brain will start playing TikTok sounds. It's like there's four tabs open and somewhere's playing music and I start to get distracted by one of the animals. So I like to put the audiobook on at like two and a half times of speed because that's about how fast my eyes are. And then I'll listen and read. I do the immersion reading, I think is what they call it. So I do a bit of both. But if I had to lean on just one of the other, it'd probably be audiobooks. Wait, so you're listening. to the book while also having a physical copy in front of you in annotating as you're listening.

Yep. And okay. I've never done that. It helps with the, it just helps with keeping my eyes on the words and going like, you know, or else I'll just start. So your brain doesn't like start going off in another direction. Complete other direction. Yeah.

So, but I have to rely on audiobooks. So I will say audiobooks for that. But I can, I mean, if I have to, if you put me in a room with no distractions, I'll probably be able to just read the book of my eyes, but it is harder. Yeah, I think my technique, as of lately, has been if I have both, if I have the physical book and, you know, I'm listening to it. I'll listen to it throughout the day either doing errands or on walks or just, you know, when I can actually focus and I'm not like just needing chatter, but when I'm doing other things other than physically just sitting down and having a physical book in my hands. But at the end of the night, when I'm

trying to wind down, I'll just read the book for like 10 pages or so and trying to get sleeping and go to bed. But I've been leading more into the audiobook thing recently. I think because like you just said, you can put it on like two and a half speed. I think my sweet spot is 1.6. That's kind of where I like listening. Because otherwise I think it's just like way too rapid fire. I'm like, wait, I just missed whatever that person. It varies too. Sometimes the author is like, narrator's British. That's like 1.6, 1.75 because sometimes I'm like, you know, having to really pay attention to every single word. So it depends. Yeah, but sometimes, man, some of these, they have to talk slow. I know they do when they're recording. It just sounds inebriated sometimes.

I'm like, I need you to speed it up a bit. But yeah, I think they're fun. You know, and I think if the right narrator captures the right tone, it's a great, it's a great time. Yeah, I've always been someone, I never got into audiobooks until recently because I've always been someone who doesn't really enjoy voices. Like I'm very particular when I'm listening to something where I'm like, it either makes or breaks it for me because I have my own voice in my head when I'm reading a book. But recently, I've been listening to audiobooks a lot more. And I think I've found it because I like music and I really enjoy listening to music. But when I'm doing stuff, Sometimes it's nice to have a story that's happening at the same time.

Totally. And it can be hard to sit down and read when you have so much other stuff going on. So I've really been enjoying audiobooks recently. And I feel like I can consume more faster. Like you guys just said, I'm like a 1.4 girl, though. So I feel like you guys are a little out of my league. No, no, no. I mean, I'm the single half.

There's no way. I don't know why. I'm like a 1.2 to 1.4 is like. 1.4 is like my max. That's fine. No shame, no judgment. But I also do really enjoy reading. I think that there's something that's really nice about having a book in your hand.

And specifically, I found that we travel a lot and reading a physical book on a flight is kind of like my favorite because there's nothing else for me to do. I hate flying, so I need something else to distract me. and I don't know like having a physical book on a plane has just been something really nice but also before I go to bed to like not be looking at my phone or a screen to kind of help me has been really nice too so I'm kind of in the same boat where I like I like both of them yeah do you guys have Kindles we do yeah yeah that's my that's my bed I always have the Kindle by the bed I have the lazy one with the remote I could like oh yeah oh that's leveling that way Nancy. We haven't gone there yet. Do you have the stand? Oh, yeah. It holds it up. Yeah. And then that's so nice. And I just lay there. And I fall asleep doing that. But it is, it is still a screen, but it's not just doom scrolling and, you know, trigger. And it's like a lower. It's a lower screen too. Like it's not the same brightness. And like it's way different than looking at your phone or even a movie, I think. Yeah. And I'm pretty good at just reading a book on Kindle. That one I can do sometimes. Also on the app. And it's still on your phone. But the app. And it's still on your phone. But the app. has a continuous scroll. I don't know if you guys have done that. I've seen a couple of our travelers do that. I'm like, why are they reading the longest text that's ever been sent? And then I put it together. I'm like, oh, they're reading a book. It helps so much. Well, the Kindle is another arena where Cassie and I are like same, same but different. Like, we both have the same kindle,

but my font is, you know, size 12 and I have it in dark mode and hers is in light mode and it's, like the font's like size 16 you know like in a different style like it's it's so funny because it's like we're always in the same world but just on different continents i have a friend i have a friend who reads it and it just looks like a book like it's on the baker's field or whatever baker baker whatever font and it's super tiny and i'm like what are we doing i what's the point because i'm on the dyslexic font and it's like it's 72 like there's huge font And that helps me read. Well, also, it's hovering above your face on a stand.

So you need it. Maybe I'll get that for Christmas. It's great. I highly recommend it. Even if, like, you know, I like to have my, let me to get so personal here. I like to have my arms under the covers. I like to be bundled up. Your hands free.

Like a little button. And I just, I just like curl up in myself and like, you know, it's great. But if I need to, I've got a pop socket back there and I'll scroll that way. But I love it. highly recommend. Well, last question, I guess I have that just came to my mind after our chat. How often, like, what is your hours of reading a week? Like, just kind of, like, looking at your background, you have so many books.

Obviously, you created this book club and you have so many books that you have read, want to read, that you're, you mentioned in passing that you're part of other book clubs, which we didn't even talk about, but I noticed. So I am I average about depends from 15 to 20 books a month. So I don't really I don't really listen as somebody with the podcast. That's like my year. Hold on. I this morning just looked at my goal because I'm like, oh, I set a goal in the beginning of the year. Totally forgot what I said it at. So I went to look at it. And it's like, congrats. You've surpassed your goal. I'm like, oh, what was it? I'm at 31 books out of 30. And I just felt so

proud. Yeah, you should. One hour ago. No, I don't feel proud anymore. No, don't listen. I, as somebody with a podcast and loves podcasts, I really don't listen to podcasts. I really don't, what people are asking, like, have you seen this movie? Have you seen this movie? No, I really just read. Everywhere I go, there's, like I said, I've got an audio book in the car going all the time. If I'm home, I've got, you know, the audiobook and the book going. And when I go to bed, I've got a different book going. I can like different. I can read a couple of books at a time and completely different. Even if they're in the same like type of genre, I can, that's like the only superpower that I have. I'm able to completely separate all three stories. So that helps me be able to to do that.

I think I have an audio book going right now. It's a cute little tennis romance. I'm reading a book club pick about rabies. And then I've got like, you know, another YA fantasy happening whenever I feel like it. So it's just, I just incorporate and I try to be personally mindful because actually my, my day job is in marketing and social media. I'm on social media all the time and it, it's unfortunate, but it pays the bills. So I do that. So by the time I'm off of work, I just read, I just veg because I've been on my phone all damn day. And it's just an easy way for me to, to hit that goal. But I have friends who are over like 200 right now. I've got friends who have just blown through books. And it's totally fine. Like, even if you read, my goal every year is always 52. I want to at least read a book a

week. But with the book club, I'm guaranteed at least 12. Right. Yeah. And yeah, I'm in other book clubs. I don't attend every single one. One of them just read Addy LaRue and I did not go because I hadn't read it yet and I didn't want to be spoiled. But I also try to support my friends. Like a lot of my, the times I just go to book clubs because my friend runs it. My friend Annalise runs this horror book club. My friend Chandler runs this, you know, dark romance book club. And sometimes I'll just go because it's fun and I get see other friends and we'll go get a beer afterwards or whatever. So a lot of it's social. But I constantly have a book going in some way, shape, or form. And that's how I'm able to to read as many as I have. I think I'm at 140 something this year. And that's,

that's so impressive. It's pretty average. Yeah. It's pretty average. Yeah. 28. I think that's great. Listen, don't let my big number. I think if you're reading it all, that that's great. I mean, reading in general, we need to be reading 100%. Yeah, I agree. You're two books a year. It doesn't matter. Yeah. I think that reading is, I think for a while, it was kind of this forgotten form of entertainment. And I think in the past few years, it has really been making a comeback, which is exciting.

And I think that finding people who are really excited about books and you see they're being marketed more, there's more book clubs, more people are talking about it. And I think maybe part of why books are happening a lot more is because of the audio accessibility as well, because people are busy and they need an escape. Yep. 100%. And I, you know, I don't, if you read two books a year, that's great. And I think to, unfortunately, especially with nonfiction, we tend to correlate reading with having to do a book review for your teacher. We have to read it for an assignment. We have to read to do this.

And we had to read so much in school and in college, sometimes against our will. I didn't. I loved reading. English was my favorite subject. I was the one championing crime and punishment. And so I think for the longest time, we were forced to read. And there's totally a difference in doing it for your own entertainment and being forced to read something. And so I think no matter how you're consuming it, you know, it's a good thing, especially with book bannings happening.

and all, you know, all this other shit going on in the world. Let's, let's read. Let's read some books. Let's fight the system. And on that note, for people who are listening and they want to read more books and they want to join your book club, where can they find you? Yeah, the morbidly curious book club.com. That will take you wherever you need to go.

We are on Facebook. You could go watch our past live streams and discussions on our YouTube and, of course, Instagram. Some places, it's the morbidly curious book club, but I think both Instagram at Facebook It's just morbidly curious book club. So find us on socials. And then from there, if you'd like to join, the website is there. And from there, you can find our Discord and other smaller communities. Join a chapter if you would like.

And if you're in the Charlotte area of North Carolina, you can come see me. I'm at Charlotte, Belmont, Moresville, Denver, Statesville. I'm all over the damn place. All over the place. Doing too much. So yeah, yeah, come hang out. It's a good time. Read some books for fun and learn something while you're doing it.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing your love of books and literature with us today. And it's certainly added more books to our ever-growing list. And we're really excited to do our book club with you this month to talk about Postland. So yeah, thank you so much for coming on with us and collabing. And it's been wonderful. Thank you for having me and letting me, yeah, letting me gush about books. I can do it for hours. I love it. And yeah, the 26th of October will be on live on Facebook, YouTube and Instagram sometimes works. I use Stream Yard and Instagram sometimes doesn't connect properly. Facebook and YouTube at least, we'll be there discussing ghost stories. Yes, we will. Very exciting. Well, thank you everyone for tuning in. We'll see you all next time. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye, everyone. See ya.

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