National Park After Dark - The Value of Bones: Dinosaur National Monument

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Today we talk all things dinosaurs! We discuss an ongoing case of poaching over 1 million dollars worth of dinosaur fossils, discuss why some are so valuable, roast the celebrities with private fossil collections and honor the National Parks that preserve them.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Mad Rabbit:  For 25% off your order, head to MadRabbit.com/NPAD25 and use code NPAD25.Alo Moves: Use code NPAD to get a free 30-day subscription.Liquid IV: Use code NPAD at checkout to get 20% off you first order.Lume Deodorant: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with@lumedeodorant and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code NPAD at LumeDeodorant.com! #lumepodFor a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Work your magic Millennials remember their introduction to dinosaurs All too well It might have started with toy stuffed animals Figurines or bedtime story But then it moved to the big screen When we fell in love with the land before time, in all of our favorite dinosaur friends.

Littlefoot, Petrie, Ducky, Spike, and Sarah. But we also got our first taste of the scariest of all dinosaurs. The Sharptooth, a Tyrannosaurus Rex. That fun-loving movie was soon replaced when Stephen Stilberg took a massively successful science fiction thriller book and brought it to life. Dinosaur movies had been done before, but not like this. not this good and not this realistic. When it hit theaters, it was a massive success.

The most phenomenal discovery of our time became the greatest adventure of all time. Scientists had done it. They found DNA samples still viable, most notably from inside a mosquito, that allowed dinosaurs to be genetically engineered back into existence. And not just the beloved herbivores.

they've recreated the feared Tyrannosaurus wrecks. They turned this advancement in science into an amusement park for all to come and see. But in the preliminary stages of opening the park, paleontologists came to see the work they've done, only to find themselves fighting for their lives against the predators they created. Some of us were old enough to watch the movie when it was released. While the rest of us eagerly awaited for the day our parents deemed us old enough to see it. When that day arrived, we rushed to the blockbuster to rent it.

While there, we bought a bag of 3D Doritos, a couple of our favorite color airheads, a push pop, and any of our other favorite theater snacks. Then we hurried home to throw it into our VCR with hopes that the person before us had pressed rewind. For many of us, this was our first real horror movie. We snuggled up on the couch and sat in terrified amazement from the very beginning. Our eyes widened in the opening scene when Dr. Alan Grant described to a little kid, our age, exactly how a raptor would gut his insides with its claws before consuming him. Later, we watched an anticipation as they entered the amusement park, where we knew the dinosaurs would be. We watched as they lifted a cow by crane into an enclosure for feeding time.

Inside were the raptors Dr. Allen had just warned us about. While we couldn't see that, We heard them and watched the trees move around violently until the cow was killed. We observed the group as they were shown around the facility, while the scientists and creators raved about all the advancements made and the possibilities. We knew that something bad was about to happen, but we also knew what we were getting into when we sat down and opened that bag of 3D Doritos. We were eagerly anticipating the appearance of the star of the show, and the havoc we knew it was about to release on the park.

We were waiting to get a glimpse of the T-Rex. When they entered the park with the creator and started to explore, we hoped and feared that at any moment it would appear. Everyone watching was afraid, but not Dr. John Hammond. In one proud and ominous exclamation, he reached his hands out wide and looked over the magnificent creatures he helped to recreate and exclaimed, welcome to Jurassic Park. I can't even describe to you how excited I am for this.

You're just like, I'm back. I've told you before I watched this movie about once a year. So it's not like I haven't seen it in a really long time, but I'm so excited because I know you're doing a dinosaur episode. And I just love this movie so much. And I love dinosaurs. A paleontologist was a first dream. job for me. So I am so ready for this. I feel like I made this episode for you specifically because

when I first started doing it, I was like, I know this is Danielle's like kid dream job as a paleontologist. I know she loves dinosaurs in Jurassic Park. Should I be the one covering this? And I was like, yeah, I feel like she's going to really like this. And I even watched Jurassic Park again, the first one to kind of, I'm not talking about the movie Jurassic Park today. I'm actually talking about dinosaurs that have existed and things going on today but i just felt it was it was needed to watch Jurassic Park and it just brought back a lot of childhood memories sitting there watching it and of course they're still making them and they've been coming out for years so it's just it's a fun movie do you um i have some like bones to pick with the franchise and the direction it's gone but um do you have a

favorite one do you like evolve the i think that the first one is always a classic when that one Jurassic, when that one dinosaur comes out and I don't know the name of this dinosaur, which probably makes me bad because I just did a whole episode of dinosaurs. But that moment where that guy, he is coming up in a Jeep and he gets stuck on that big waterfall thing and he gets out and he's trying to like wrench it. And then he's talking to this little, It's like a little raptor or something and he's talking to it like get away from me. I'm going to run you over when I came come back down here. This is the reason you're extinct.

And he turns around and the thing just spreads its face wings at it and starts spitting the ink at him. That is burned in my childhood memory as like this is the first scary movie I've ever seen. And I remember like covering my eyes halfway but not being able to stop watching. That scene was really, I just, and then like that's, he has the DNA in like the shaving canister and it gets covered with mud. Yeah, and it falls into the mud. Yeah. Okay.

So that dinosaur is called a dilophisaurus. Dilofesaurus. I think. I think I might mention them in here. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. My favorite scene was when, I mean, there's so many iconic scenes, but my two favorite scenes have to do with the velocisors. Rappers. And the first one is when they're all in the, when they're out in this like field, the grassy field. And you can see the raptors following them. And then it's like watching a nature documentary now when you see like African painted dogs go off in a group and then they spur off into different directions. And then they heard. Before they come in for the kill. Yeah. They like heard their prey and then pick them off. So that scene was amazing. I loved that scene.

And then also, of course, when the kids are in the kitchen. And it's the moment where the velociraptors are looking and they're like, okay, I want to get in there. And then you see them think, they're like, I can open this door. And they open the door slowly. And it's just, it shows their intelligence. And it's just so cool. And right before that happens, too, they say, oh, we're safe unless they learn how to open doors. Right. Yeah, exactly.

And then you see the door just start. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway. Such a classic movie. Yeah. Anyway, we're not talking about the movie today. I want to actually look up. I want to make sure I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but this is the one you're talking about, right? I want to say it's dilaphasaurus. But. Dilaphasaurus. Well, now you know. That dinosaur is burned into my memory forever. And that's like, I know a lot of people when they first,

think of Jurassic Park. They think of the scene where they have the goat in the pen and then the Tyrannosaurus Rex comes in like later and they're waiting for it to arrive and then suddenly it does. And then you get that big scene where it roars into the air and stuff. And I think that that's like an iconic scene where people really gravitate to. But mine is that little guy just there's a big noise when his wings pop out. And then he like just starts spitting what looks like ink. on his face. And I just like, what is happening here? I've never even dreamt of this dinosaur

before. It just threw me for a loop. Okay. I'm going to shut my mouth about Jurassic Park. So you can tell your story. Yeah, Jurassic Park is very much not real. Obviously, we know that and is a thriller movie, but I'm going to be talking about real dinosaurs. And I'm doing something a little bit different that we don't normally do for episodes because I piece this one together with a lot of different information, but it all started because I was inspired by a national news case that was published in like People magazine, like all over the place a couple of months ago. So it's very, very recent and it's an ongoing case that has not been resolved yet, which is also something I normally don't cover, but because it has reached national news and there's a lot going on.

and I love to read indictments and affidavits and all of the court documents. I went through a wormhole. And here we are. It ended up with me going down a rabbit hole of reading not only about dinosaurs themselves, but researching entire issues on massive poaching problems of dinosaur bones, of celebrity dinosaur bone collectors, and the history behind preserving dinosaur fossil. and then the national parks that are involved in them.

So it's kind of a whirlwind of an episode where we're going to jump into a lot of things. Okay. Poaching. So, okay, you're going to explain it. Like, stealing. Dinosaur poaching. Stealing. Yep.

Stealing fossils. Of the remains. Okay. Yes. Exactly. And the first part of this episode is I'm going to talk about a case where a handful of people have been indicted on charges of selling over $1 million. worth of stolen dinosaur bones from federal lands.

Okay. And I do want to mention that in the United States, it is legal to sell dinosaur bones you find on private land. It is very illegal to sell dinosaur bones that you find on federal land. And I do want to mention that because this is an ongoing case, I don't have all of the information surrounding it. And the people who have been indicted on several charges are innocent until proven guilty. They haven't gone to court.

We don't know if, in fact, they did this or not. But I will say that clearly the United States District Attorney Office has enough evidence that they feel to charge them and they were indicted. So somewhere along the line, there's been enough evidence found where they think that it's worth investigating and not even just investigating. The investigating mostly is done minus a couple things, but putting this in front of a courtroom. Okay. And I will say that many of the documents in this case are sealed. And that is because the defendants have the right to a fair unbiased trial. So it's not out in the public.

So I have all of the information that I could gather that is public knowledge for everyone. But I have decided to put it into a podcast format. Okay. So again, for this episode, I'm going to be talking about the case. Then we're going to investigate why dinosaur bones are considered valuable around the globe and also specifically in China. the poaching problems that exist with it. And then we're going to go to Dinosaur National Monument to talk about the bones that are located there.

So with all that pre-information and introduction, let's talk about some dinosaurs. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book-to-screen favorites you've already read twice. Off-campus, L, every year after,

the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. On Thursday, October 19th, 2020, the United States Attorney's Office for the District of Utah released an article titled, Over $1 million worth of dinosaur bones allegedly stolen from Utah, shipped to China for profit. The allegations come accusing.

four people of purchasing and selling over $1 million in paleontological resources, including dinosaur bones removed from federal lands in southeastern Utah. The accused are 65-year-old Vint Wade, 67-year-old Stephen Willing, and 40-year-old Jordan Willing. Vint and Donna Wade are locals to Moab, Utah, which is home to surrounding national parks, both arches and canyon lands. They are owners of Wade's Wood and Rock, also known as Wade's Rock. And I'm a little unclear with the research if there's an actual storefront business or if they just categorize themselves as working with Rock and Stone specimens and have created a business, but it has been in operation since 1992.

They are collectors of dinosaur bones and they attend and sell at Expos with their collections. Jordan Willing is from Oregon and is the CEO and registered agent of JMW Sales. And according to the indictment, and after a quick Google search of the company, they operate in the state of Oregon and refer to themselves as a consumer products company that fosters exploration through play and learning and the outdoors. The indictment also states that he's associated with foreign corporations which assist with trafficking dinosaur bones into China. Wait, so sorry, I'm a little. So the company based in Utah, this is? Or another, you're talking about another one in Oregon? Oregon. So this is this, Jordan Willing is from Oregon and he owns a company under the name of

JMW sales. And I was just explaining in that company, they have themselves written and described as a consumer products company that fosters exploration through play, learning and the outdoors. And I think it's really funny that you're like, hold on, wait a second, because that was my very first reaction to. I'm like, what did I just read? What is that? Because I have no idea. do what that means? It sounds like just such a vague. What is that? Yeah, it could be describing anything. And I just want to make sure I didn't like black out for a second. I can not understand. No, it's very confusing. I'm like, what is what does that even mean? So I actually went further to look it up a little bit more because I was confused. So on rocket reach.co, their business information

is listed saying in 2010. And I'll say this doesn't, this also doesn't really help that much. And they do but it says 10 they partnered with national Greek national geographic to create educational toys to inspire children to interact with and explore the natural the natural world it also states that the company recently connected with world-renowned survivalist bear grills to produce to produce accessible practical outdoor year so they kind of sounded like maybe a production company for outdoor stuff okay i mean that would make sense i'm getting yeah but it didn't say it doesn't say that in general. But that's what I read. Stephen Willing, who has also been indicted, is Jordan's father, and also has ties to the company as an executive and registered agent of JWM Sales and lives in

California. He is also a certified public accountant. Interestingly enough, like I said, I read the whole indictment on this stuff, and I'm just getting this information from the court documents mostly. There are two other people mentioned in the indictment who are cited as co-conspirators who claim to have excavated, removed, and transported fossils that they had collected from federal lands and sold them to the wades. The two co-conspirators, however, have not been indicted. Like they haven't been named? No, they haven't been indicted.

They haven't been charged with anything. Oh, okay. So it sounds like a couple of snitches. Do we know what public lands we're talking about somewhere in Utah? Yes. So that is also, I'm going to get into that too, because where exactly they were getting these bones is has not fully been released yet but there's a couple locations that have been and I wanted to before I went into where some of these were located I wanted to go into why this is illegal because I think at face value might just be like oh they found bones on land and they sold them people sell it all the time you can go on Google and type in dinosaur bone right now and you can buy something it doesn't seem like it would be that illegal but it is for a lot of reasons that make total sense and this is a federal law according to to the Paleontological Resources Preservation Act that was set into law by Congress in 2009.

This act essentially protects dinosaur bones and any fossilized remains, traces or imprints of organisms preserved in the earth crusts that help to provide information about the history of life on Earth. This means that you're only allowed to collect these items with specialized permits or permissions from agencies protecting them if they are located on federal land. And there are a lot of agencies that protect all types of fossilized remains, including dinosaur bones. And some of these agencies are the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and of course, the National Park Service. I would like to also point out that whether a dinosaur, bones, or fossils have been discovered or undiscovered, if they are on federal land, they are always considered federally owned resources.

You can't just find it and be like, finderskeepers, this is mine. If it's on federally owned land, that is their property, even if they don't know about it. In addition, the Act prohibits selling, purchasing, exchanging, transporting, exporting, or receiving dinosaur bones or other fossils. If it is known that they came from federal land, it is also prohibited to mislabel fossils as something else when you're selling them. So you can't be like, it's a dinosaur bone and you can't be like, this is a stone I found on the ground. Right. Yeah.

You can't be shady. Can't be shady. Don't be a little liar. No. No lying. Well, this group of four has been indicted on 13 felony charges in regarding to breaking the law of this Preservation Act. The indictment says that the wades paid the co-conspirators who are not indicted or charged to collect dinosaur bones from federal lands, then paid them for the bones themselves with straight up cash or sometimes a check.

Then they stockpiled a lot of these resources and fossils to sell them at gem and mineral shows to national vendors. Then they also sold much of these dinosaur bones that were collected to Stephen and Jordan Willings to ship them to China. The wades are accused of selling over $1 million in dinosaur bones to the Willings, which ended up being approximately 150,000 pounds of paleontological resources, including the dinosaur bones. And, I mean, that's a lot. You think about it, 150,000 pounds of these dinosaur bones. It seems like a lot, and it definitely is. but the damages that were done outreach the dollar amount that these are worth.

So damages are estimated to be around $3 million, which also counts for the scientific value of these resources that were lost, the cost of restoration and repair for these, along with the commercial value that was stolen, because a lot of these things commercially, not that they would be selling them as trinkets and things like that, but to bring in visitors or just any type of advertisements that they could do, Things like that, just the commercial value was stolen in that as well.

Right. Now, the charges that have been brought against them include one count of conspiracy against the United States, three counts against the Paleontological Resources Preservation Act, two counts of false labeling offense under the Paleontological Resources Preservation Act, one count of theft of property of the United States, one count of attempted smuggling goods from the United States, one count of false export information, one count of false declaration, And three counts of money laundering.

In addition to that, they have several other charges that are still pending that the United States is trying to bring against them. Can you imagine being? I mean, that's a lot, of course. And it's pretty all encompassing. Like, there's a lot there. But the first one, conspiracy against the U.S. government. That sounds serious. That sounds scary.

I'm intimidated for you. I'm afraid for them. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry you're in this mess. if you didn't do it. Because, of course, we haven't heard the trial or the counter to this. But, like, these are scary charges. Yeah, they seem pretty heavy.

You don't fuck with the U.S. government. I think we've kind of established that over time that, yeah, they don't like when you steal from them. No. They can steal from you. You cannot steal from them. That's right. It's just the way it works. It's just the way it works.

We don't make the rules. Now, going back to your question about the locations that they were found in, Not all of them are listed on the indictment, however, there are a few of them. Allegedly, in 2021, one of the co-conspirators sold dinosaur bones to Vint Wade that they had collected from an area in Utah known as Hotel Mesa. And I'm not personally familiar with this area. And despite the name saying hotel, it's not a hotel. It's an area of rock. Instead, this is like a very desolate area that is slightly northeast of Arches National Park along the Colorado River.

and it looks like it is possibly considered to be part of Moab and has camping areas that are pretty close by. And this area, it's not part of a national park, but it is under the protection of the Bureau of Land Management, which is considered federal land. Allegedly also the co-conspirator attempted to collect resources from the nearby town of Cisco, Utah, which is also on federal land and is just a couple miles away. And that's all that's been listed. But later in the story, I kind of go into some other investigation that has. has to do with their locations. Okay. The wades and the willings also allegedly mislabeled the shipments to China, most likely

because it was illegal. In March 2019, they shipped dinosaur bones to China from Scottsdale, Arizona, with a description written that the transport included Jasper and Wood. However, they were actually discovered with this shipment because it was held up in China due to high radiation levels, which fun fact that I didn't learn until researching this episode is actually pretty common. Not all the time. It doesn't happen every time.

But many dinosaur bones are actually radioactive. Oh, wow. Okay. I also heard this before. No. I had no idea. And so, of course, I had to look up why. And this is because there's uranium, a natural occurring heavy metal with a radioactive

chemical element that can be found in the soils and waters around weathering rock that contains it. Because dinosaur bones have been fossilized. in this area or in these areas, they are contaminated with the radiation as well. And while most of the time it is in very small amounts, hardly traceable, there are some that have significantly more. And some of those examples are in some museums because museums that have collected some of these fossils have found that they are so radioactive that they have had to coat them and lead paint to reduce exposure to the radiation. Oh, okay. I think is wild. I'm like, I had no idea.

fun fact. I had no idea either. Yeah, that's really interesting. Dinosaurs are deadly even afterlife. It's true. Yeah, truly. Sixty-five million years later, they're still going to get you. Yeah.

In addition to this shipment in April of 2020, the wades and willings allegedly sent another shipment of dinosaur bones to China and labeled them as industrial stone, landscape, rock, and turquoise. Again, in 2021, another shipment allegedly sent by them was labeled as petrified wood. And then again, in December 2022, another shipment was labeled as construction zone and moss agate instead of dinosaur bones. In this shipment, it was falsely reported that it was worth $8,491.8 when it was actually worth $73,000 that Jordan Willing had purchased these dinosaur bones for. And this shipment did not make it to China because this one

was seized in Long Beach, California, when they discovered the mislabeling and discovered that these were actually dinosaur bones. But it's not just mislabeling and illegal shipping that the government is upset about. Some of the dinosaur bones were fashioned into commercial products, including dinosaur dig kits, carved figurines, knives, jewelry, and polished bowling ball-shaped spheres. Wait a second. Dinosaur dig kits have the real fossilized bones? Yeah, like, did you ever get those And like, remember the crystal kits? Yes, 100%. And I've gotten them for my nephews.

I feel like I get them for like every... A dinosaur dig kit? Yeah. Yeah. You're supporting the problem. I didn't know. You're going to be arrested any day now. There is no way.

Really? I am. For like 15 bucks? I will say not all of these are illegal, but they can be. They can be. So you do have to be careful about where you're buying and making sure you're buying from a reputable source. But there are lots of private properties all around the West. I mean, people own significant chunks of land out there where dinosaur bones can definitely be found and they

can make kits. And it's totally illegal because it's on private land. It's just if they're found on federal. I totally understand that. But what I don't understand is legally or illegally sourced. You're going to put real, genuine, fossilized dinosaur remains in a dig kit. for a five-year-old? Yep. That's what you're telling me. Danielle's about to fly back to New Hampshire and grab those dig kits. She's like, what the hell?

I didn't know they were real. I know. Oops, sorry. Yeah. And of course, like, I'm not going to the black market for these things. Like, I'm buying them at a kids store. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to this underground, like, shady place for these things.

But so I would imagine, I would imagine that they're not real. I don't know. But you're telling me there's a chance. There's a lot of dinosaur products around. So you're saying there's a chance. I'm saying there's a chance. I mean, I just always grew up, I guess, thinking that they're like a rarity. Like I thought they were like so cool and like, you know, I don't know.

But now it would make sense that perhaps they would find their way into dig kits for children if there's just like this huge abundance of them. So maybe it's just something in my mind is just not connecting because I just always felt like they were so rare and unique and special. I don't know. I feel like finding dinosaur bones isn't particularly something that it's far-fetched to think that you could just find. And I think that there are a lot of dinosaur bones. But I think that it's very difficult to find fully preserved skeletons of dinosaurs. So I think people are finding like little pieces of vertebrae here and there and stuff like that in small amounts. But these big dig sites that we're seeing where people are really finding all this research, I think a lot of it, we don't hear about the full skeletons being preserved as much.

But I don't know, a lot of the research I was doing. It seems like there's a lot around, but they're trying to research so much of it that when it's disturbed, it causes a huge rift in the science community who are trying to learn it. about what happened here. Right. I was just under the impression that for the fossilization process to occur, like conditions have to be just right. And it doesn't happen all the time. So when you do find fossilized remains, it's a big deal. Definitely a big deal. I just think if you're in the right climate, because I think you're right where I'm not going to go in my backyard and find a dinosaur bone right now, but there are huge parts of the country where that is possible and it is the right climate for them to be preserved and people have access to those.

Yeah, I mean, I really quickly, before you continue, near me, they aren't preserved fossils, but right behind, a lot of people don't know this, but Red Rock's amphitheater, like the big music venue, right behind that, like right across the street from there is a trail that you can do, a bike trail and a hiking trail, and it's called the dinosaur tracks. And there's a little dinosaur museum there that you can go and visit and learn about dinosaurs and stuff. But on the actual trail, there's all this rock that preserves a bunch of different footprints, dinosaur footprints. Oh, wow. That's so cool. Yeah. And just from the fossil record over time, like, there's, like, marks of, like, prehistoric alligator scratch marks and, like, all these different prints and tracks.

And you can just ride your bike right next to it and go up to it and look at it and touch it. You can bring your dog. And it's just right there. It's right next to Red Rocks. That's so cool. That's so fun. Yeah. So I can understand, obviously, like the American West is a hotspot for dinosaur discovery.

But I just didn't think they were like laying around in so big of a quantity that we're giving them to children. I'm like really hung up on that. Like, why are we giving these to children? I do want to say I don't think they're laying around. I think these people who are putting them in these dig, if they are like the real dinosaur dig kits, I think these people are part of like a lucrative business where they're digging down deep and they're doing like full excavations to find these things. I don't think they're just like walking on a trail and being like, oh, here's this. There it is. Like pick it up.

Or here's a fossil. I'm like, ah, I knew there was something out here. Yeah. But I can understand also when you said that like it causes a rift in the scientific community. because you never know if you're taking something that's like a missing link in the fossil record that people have been dying to find and like understand. Yeah, I totally get that. And it also tells so much it's not even just about the fossils, but a lot of it is about the area. Because when you have these fossils in certain areas, it tells a story of what the landscape used to be millions of years ago.

So when you're taking these fossils, you're not just taking the dinosaurs. you're taking a lot of the history of the landscape that they could be learning about, too. And then you're turning him into, when I read polished bowling ball-shaped spheres for dinosaur bones, like, why? Who needs a circle of a dinosaur bone? I would much rather have a dinosaur bone, but... Yeah, interesting. Very odd. So they found them mislabeling them, but they were also turning these dinosaur bones that were very valuable paleontological resources that could have been used. and now it's a carved figurine or a night. Sitting on somebody's shelf, yeah, for no reason.

Yeah, before it goes in the trash one day, yeah. Or somebody's a state sale or something. Mm-hmm. The United States Attorney's Office also cites evidence of transactions between the weeds and the Willings and some of them were worth a lot of money. So I wanted to go in how much money they were paying for a lot of these things. So for example, on March 6, 2003, Stephen Willing sent a lot of money. a wire transfer to the wades in the amount of $349,250 for the purchase of dinosaur bones.

That's a whole house. That's a whole ass house, yeah. The state's attorney's office cites evidence of emails, photographs to confirm shipments, wire transfers, and other transactions as proof that these events were happening. Much of these transactions were being done through the Willing's business, JMW sales and they are being accused of mislabeling the dinosaur bones and deflating their value to avoid detection by federal agents. So this is kind of where I feel like the money laundering charges were coming in. They were doing it under false business. It's giving what's that show? It's giving

Ozark. It's giving Ozark, yes. Yeah. I also hate that I just said it's giving. But I kind of said that in like a condescending way, but it's. It's. giving. It's funny. Or not condescending, sarcastic. Yeah. Anyway, a statement I found in People's Magazine made by U.S. District Attorney Trina Higgins read, whatever value we could gain by knowing the location they are at, what other bones were near, the type of soil they were found in, all of that scientific value was lost when they were removed. So although dinosaur bones and all of the other paleontological resources have value on some markets, the true loss of removing these items from public lands cannot be monetarily measured. It is invaluable. And that's exactly what we just had a discussion about.

Yeah. There's so much more loss than just the bones. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or the FBI from the Salt Lake City Field Office, is working on the case alongside the Bureau of Land Management Monticello Field Office. I hope I pronounce that right. and the Grand County and San Juan County Sheriff's Office. And while it seems at least as of now, we don't have a lot of the locations that these dinosaur bones were taken from, I will point out that Monticello is very close to Bears' Ears National Monument. Grand County contains Arches National Park and San Juan County contains Canyonlands National Park.

So I believe that even though it doesn't seem like the National Park Service is involved in the investigation, I wouldn't struggle to believe that it's possible that some of these bones did come from within National Park boundaries because the sheriff's office is who represent those counties where these national parks are involved. So these bones were probably taken from at least right outside the boundaries of the park or possibly somewhere within them. Again, that's not in the indictment. That's nowhere in court documents that I found. But just knowing that information, I'm like, I would be very interested to see what comes out in the case further down the line. The indictment for this case was filed on September 27, 2023, and a 10-day jury trial was set to begin

on December 18, 2023. Under the Speedy Trial Act, the accused are entitled to fight their case in under 70 days, which is why the trial was scheduled so quickly from the indictment. However, both the government and the defendants jointly filed a continuance, and the jury trial was rescheduled for July 8th, 2024. However, on February 26th, 2024, the government filed a motion again asking for the trial to be moved to August 28th of 2004.

And now we're getting into like very close. Like some of the stuff I read was like filed three days ago. So now we're like really, we're in, we're all in the case together now. The defendants for this opposed moving the trial date because they had conflicts on that specific date. But they also argued that they were extending the time. timeframe because the defense had not diligently prepared for the trial, and that wasn't right for them they wanted to just get it done with. However, the prosecution argued this and had several

arguments for why they wanted to move the date further, and they argued that this was a very unusual and complex case and cited that they have over 26,000 pages of discovery to sort through. Along with that, they argued that they recently received 262 documents from JMW Sales Inc that was given to them late and the information lacks important information that seems to have been redacted and is relevant information that they are currently working with the attorneys for JMW sales to get that information. They argued that this has also slowed down some of their progress. Along with that, the government intends to use expert witness testimony during their prosecution. They are intending on using scientific techniques to corroborate the origins of the dinosaur bones.

They will be using x-ray, fluorescent, and rare earth element testing, which takes time. And these tests are assumed to be back sometime in May of 2024. This, I will also add, is science that has never been used before inside a courtroom in the United States. So this is like all new territory. And they're like, hey, we have all this testing that we want to do to prove our point, but the testing takes time. They also stated that they have been working with paleontologists and geologists on the science of this case. since the spring of 2023, and they have conducted testing on over 1,500 resources, including seized bones and control samples.

They stated that while a lot of the testing has been done, there is so much more that needs to happen to present all the evidence at trial. They are also in the process of choosing who will be their expert witness because they have used so many people as their resources. On March 22, 2024, United States District Judge David Nuffer granted the most for continuance and they were able to settle on a date that everyone was available for and this trial will begin on January 27th, 2025, barring no unforeseen circumstances. So keep an eye out. All right. January 2025, we're waiting for you. We'll be here. We're so curious what's going to

happen. But I wanted to tell that story of the case because it brought a lot of questions for me. I wanted to know where exactly they found these bones because that's so important. And of course, just with the content of our podcast, I'm curious if they did get anything from inside National Park Boundaries. I don't know if that's a question that will ever be answered. But I'm curious. But I also had a lot of other questions, which kind of inspired me to do an episode, not just on this case, but diving further into dinosaurs because I had a few things that weren't

answered reading the indictment. And that was, what is the value of dinosaur bones? Why are they so expensive? Why was it profitable to send them to China and not keep them here? And I wanted to answer that. So I did a little research and I came across a lot of information. And the first thing I found was that poaching dinosaur bones might be a bigger problem than people realize. And it was certainly not something that I had put a lot of thought into.

And there are some big names that are attached to dinosaur fossil poaching. For example, in 2015, Nicholas Cage was forced to return a Tyrannosaurus skull he had thought he bought legally. But it was not. He bought it in 2007 from a gallery in Beverly Hills for $276,000. But later it was revealed it had been originally stolen from the Gobi Desert, which he says he was not aware of and he returned it. I mean, how would he know? Right. Like he's just a celebrity with a lot of money.

And of course. I just have to say, of course, it's Nick Cage. He did star in National Treasurer. And look what he's doing in his personal life. I just cannot with Nick Cage. I just can't. I love that you call him Nick. Ah, Nick.

Can with you. You silly boy. Yeah, no, I don't really like him. But. You silly boy. No, I don't like him. I don't really like him. But, I mean, I'm not going to have fault.

How would he ever? know. Like the burden of finding where this I'm sure. He bought it on a black market. Yeah, like a shop in Beverly Hills. Like I seriously doubt that he had any sort of inclination. Yeah. I just thought it was so funny. It's just like the comedy behind the types of movies he does. And then he is the one who has to return a fossil. Right. Of course. Yeah. Somehow just made my day a little brighter. I don't know. But Nicholas Cage isn't the only well-known dinosaur bone collector. There's another big name in celebrities. I want to guess so bad. Yes. Please to guess. It's a man, obviously, right? It's a man, yes.

Okay. It's a man that you know very well. Not personally know very well, but you know him. You know him very well. Do I? I want to say, and I don't know why. Well, actually, now I know why, and it makes no sense. It's just because I'm picturing them in a movie together.

I was going to say John Travolta, but they were together in face off. So it's probably why I'm thinking that. I don't know. I don't know. Are you going to? Can you give me like a hint instead of just like a man in Hollywood? I'm going to give you a hint, but you're going to guess it as soon as I give it to you. Maybe not.

You don't know. You will. I 1,000 percent, no, you will. Okay. He is a man from your favorite movie. Leo DiCaprio. Yep. Leonardo DiCaprio.

He didn't know. I already know. He didn't know. I'm not saying he buys illegal. Okay. He's just a connoisseur. He has, he's a connoisseur. He has his own private collection of dinosaur bones and he pays a lot of money for them.

In fact, he had actually been part of the bidding war against Nicholas Cage for the skull that he ended up having to return. So they're kind of all in the same, same circle here. Okay. Okay. And one of his largest pieces that he owns is, or that I know of, this is just, I don't know, I've never personally seen this collection. But one of his larger pieces is worth upwards of a million dollars and is the skull of an allosaurus, which is a bipedal predator with dozens of sharp serrated teeth and stood over 28 feet or 8.5 meters tall.

So he's paying some big bucks. I'm pretty sure the allosaurus in one of the Jurassic Park. movies fights T-Rex. It's like a bigger T-Rex. Like when I first... I think you're right. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I forget which movie it is, but I'm pretty sure the Allosaurus comes into play and kind of battles it out with the T-Rex and wins. Oh, you're so right. I'm looking up the picture now and that definitely happens. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, I'm just going to put it out there. In Jurassic Worlds. I'm just going to put it out right now that I knew. I loved Leo DiCaprio from the moment I saw him.

And it's because we have so much in common. We love the environment. We love the Titanic. And we would bond over dinosaurs if he just gave me a chance. Yeah, if only you were under 25. I know. I've lost me. The window is closed for me, sadly.

The window has closed for you, unfortunately. But I bet there was a time where he would have shown you his dinosaur collection. I'd be like, now I know what to say to him. I ever see him. I'm just going to be like talk really loudly next to him about alasauruses, alasauri or whatever. And he's going to be like, wait what? Blown away. Yeah. He's going to be like, who's this woman of my dreams? Yeah. I saw a meme of Leonardo DiCaprio recently that I thought was so funny. And it was like, it said Leonardo DiCaprio is still getting laid based on what he looked like in the Titanic. Yeah. True. Like he, it doesn't matter what he looks like today. People just see him in the Titanic and are like, yep.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So true. But it's just so funny because like I've already thought about this, already thought it through in the last 30 seconds. So when that happens and I have my opportunity to speak loudly about dinosaurs in his general area and vicinity and we hit it off and one thing leads to another. You get what I'm saying. Of course. We're going to have to come back here. We're going to have to come back here. We're going to have. to delete this episode because then he'll know ahead of time that it was all a plan. So it needs to come off natural, you know, so we're going to have to remove this episode from the feed. So when episode 217 disappears, you know why. Yeah. You know it's because Danielle's living out her dream with Leo DiCaprio. Yes. Mrs. DiCaprio will be deleting 2.20. I will happily give you a tour of our private dinosaur collection because now what is his will be mine and it'll be a whole thing. Yeah, I appreciate that. I would love to see it. Yeah. Okay. Is there any other celebrities?

Or can we end on the high note? Those were the two I had. We can end on a high note. Yeah. Okay, great. My next thing that I have is in the United States, fossil poaching has become an increasing problem. And Oglala National Grasslands in Nebraska is a hotspot for all types of fossils. In 2003, the Forest Service caught a group of men who are in the midst of digging up fossilized bones of a prehistoric rhinoceros. And in 2005, the park reported seeing evidence of poaching every week with exposed holes and excavation tools being routinely found. And this is kind of a common occurrence in areas that are known to have fossils. And that is because fossils, some of them, are worth a lot of money. And while we talked about before that some of them are really easy to come across and you can go online right now and buy one if you wanted and maybe it's real, maybe it's not.

Some of them may be legal and some of them might not. All massive skeletal fossilized remains are controversial. And in a statement that David Pauley, the president of Society of Vertebrate paleontology and a professor of sedimentary geology at Indiana University said it really well because he said, Quote, fossils weren't created to be sold. They are rare remains of the ancient history of our planet. Okay, there it is. Rare. That answers my question.

Rare. Rare. Yeah. Yeah, so. I mean, they're not like... They're not like falling from the sky. They're not falling from the sky. You can't...

I think there's more than we think, but still rare. Yeah. Whatever. We don't know. We don't know anything about dinosaurs. But depending on the type of fossil and how good a shape it's in, these can be worth a lot of money. On August 12, 1990, a now famous skeleton of the Tyrannosaurus rex was found on South Dakota's Cheyenne River Sau Reservation on a cattle ranch owned by a man named Maurice Williams. Today, it is known to be one of the most complete fossils with over 90% of the whole skeleton being found.

And it is also known to be the best preserved skeleton of a Tyrannosaurus rex. Is this Sue? Yes, it is Sue. Oh. In October 1997, Sue, which was the nickname it was given, was sold at auction for $8.3 million, which was the highest amount ever paid for a dinosaur fossil. Whoa. Yeah, that's a lot.

And it was named Sue after the woman who had found it. And that is a lot. But it has been surpassed since then. actually in very recent years because in 2020, a Tyrannosaurus fossil, which had 70% of the bones remaining, were recovered and was nicknamed Stan, sold for $31.8 million. Are these being sold to museums? Do you know? Yes.

Okay. These are on display. But I think that celebrities and stuff are paying big money for stuff like this, too, that are just sitting in private collections in homes places. Oh, yeah, I would imagine. Yeah. I mean, Leo's got millions. It's so weird.

Like, that is just so odd to me. And I'm not trying to bash him because I obviously like him a lot. But people who have private collections of things is no matter what they are. Right. Like from, I don't know. But the dinosaur bones thing is. Like worldly wonders? Yeah, it's like, this is my private collection.

and only I can see it and it's in my basement. Like it's fucking weird to me. It's like a very selfish. Yeah. It's like why do you, I don't know, to just possess this to just have it for no. So you can like look at it every once in a while. But mostly just to tell other people you have it personally is weird to me. Like I just think that's really.

It's to show your money. It's an ick. It's an ick. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Leo. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, Nick.

I'm not sorry to him, but it is an ick no matter. who you are. But interesting. I agree. Yeah, lots of money being thrown around. Lots of money being thrown around. And now going back to the case a little bit, because I wanted to know what is the value of dinosaur bones in China and why was that something that was focused on so heavily in this case? And the short answer is that it's similar to here. People love fossils. They find it interesting and they want to have a little piece of their own, and knickknacks can be pretty profitable in places. But also China is full of fossil sites.

In 2008, they announced that they had found the world's largest fossil site, finding over 7,600 of them. Extensive research on dinosaur fossils are being conducted within the country, and they've made a big mark. People are interested. People want to know what's going on. So that could definitely explain some of it. People just want it.

Also, very recently, a 200. 140 million-year-old fossil was unearthed and was found in China to be the remains of a Dinocephalosaurus orientalus. And it's described as a 16-foot-long snake-like mythical Chinese dragon is how they described it. So pretty cool. So a new species, I'm guessing. I'm not sure if it's new. It just seems to be named very specifically for the region, which makes me believe that it's a new, a new species or new, I don't know, who knows? Yeah, I didn't look that much into the species, but potentially people Google it and let us know. But they did find this, which was exciting for them.

And part of why this is exciting is because dinosaur fossils have meaningful history in Chinese culture. It has been largely believed that dinosaur bones originate from dragon species. Therefore, in China, they mostly refer to dinosaur bones as dragon bones. And in China, dragons are symbols of good luck, but they have also been used as a form of Chinese medicine for generations. They take the fossils and they cook down the bones and ground them down into powder and then they usually combine them with herbs for consumption. It is believed that it can be used to calm the mind and also for digestive issues like diarrhea. Its name in medicine is called Longu and I even found articles where it's utilized in acupuncture. so it's not just being digested. It's also used in acupuncture. And I had difficulties finding any studies that verify that this is actually an effective treatment and that it does anything, but it's widely believed. And I found varying articles for what it's used for. And it's from everything from diarrhea to a sedative to period cramps and dizziness in children. And that made me just want to be like, okay, let me look up a product that I could buy online and see how they're advertising it. So I

did a quick Google search for a bottle of long goo and it says that the benefits of their dragon powder are and this is exact wording what it says sedates fright and calms the spirit i think it's supposed to say sweating contains sweating and secures jing which i don't know what that means stops bleeding and binds up the intestines generates flesh and closes sores i also think that this was translated into english So I think that there might be some. Lost in translation. Yeah. When it says generates flesh, I'm like, what does that mean?

I feel like that means promotes wound healing. Hmm, I like that. You know, I think I prefer generates flesh. You could say it either way. Replaced. You could. Does it promote wound healing or does it generate flesh? I would prefer that a generated flesh.

Well, apparently there's no studies to back. either one. So, and I feel like that's kind of traditional Chinese medicine that uses animal parts or, you know, fossilized remains, I guess now, which I did not realize. But it upsets me. And because there's so much wrong with it. And I understand it's a cultural thing, you know, like it's not something that's so cut and dry. And I think that's why we're having such a, it's such a big hot topic and all of that, but there's a lot of harm that's done to living animals in the name of traditional medicine. And that hasn't been proven.

That hasn't been proven. And so it's like obviously, I mean, we could go down the whole rabbit hole with like bear bile and tiger parts and rhino horns and all of that. And it's just that industry is just fueling the decimation of wildlife. and that's a whole other thing. But now we're going, they're going for the fossils. Yeah, they're going for the fossils. They're not, the dead's not even safe. Oh, God, that is just, I mean, I'm not surprised and I'm not shocked, but it's just, it's sad to hear. Yeah. The demand is there so significantly. And like you said, I mean, we've talked about it a lot

when we've talked about tigers and the rhinoceros horns that now the rhinos that are being preserved and saved, have to literally hide them from poachers or they have to cut the horns off themselves so that the rhinos aren't killed. And there's just so much thing going on in the name of Chinese medicine. But I do think that because I've never had this conversation before, I think that it would be cool to talk to someone about where all of this is stemming from and why they believe that this is because it's coming from somewhere. People are buying this and they really believe it. And I just want to know why. I want to know like what, why are people raised thinking this and where is it coming? from and what are people seeing these magical results in real time and they have experience and that's

why it's going on for generations, especially in a day like today where the world is so modern and we have so much access to different things. Yeah. Like my biggest question would be like if we had that conversation with someone, whoever that might be, which I would also be open to. Like I feel like no matter what your opinion is and even if it doesn't change or wouldn't change, you should still have a discussion with somebody. that has different views than you.

But, like, my biggest question would be, and I don't know if it's, I could be getting this wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the benefits of rhino horn is they think that like when you powderize it and put it in a drink, it's either acts as like an aphrodisiac or it is kind of similar to like Viagra type of thing. Like that's the benefit, one of the benefits that they think they glean from. ingesting rhino horn. So my question would be, okay, if that is truly the belief and that's why you're, why you're purchasing this, why not just purchase Viagra, which is proven to do exactly what you want and it's not putting a rhino at risk or to death for that? Like, you know what I mean? It's like,

if we have these, totally, these supplements and medications that are going to provide you exactly what you're looking for, why are we then turning to something that's so. detrimental to other living species. I just don't understand. Yeah. And a conversation that I would be really curious to know is do the people who are buying this, are they aware how detrimental it is? Because that's another question too. Like, are these people buying it, assuming that these rhinos have already died? Or do they know what's actually happening? Because I think a lot of stuff is misinformation. And I don't know. I just feel like there's always a side to another story. And even though I agree with you a thousand percent that I think that it's not right.

especially because there's no proof that any of this really works. That's also a really good point because it just brings me back to, I'm pretty sure it was the cove, the documentary of the cove. And I've seen a bunch that are in this. The dolphins. Yes. So I've seen a lot that have been in a similar vein. So I'm not sure if it's the cove. You could correct me if I'm wrong.

But they had a section where they were talking about shark fin soup and how they basically slaughter millions of sharks every year by just pulling them up, cutting their fins off and throwing them back in alive into the ocean and obviously they're going to die. Like millions and millions every year just for shark fin soup, which is a delicacy in some Asian countries. And they went out onto the streets in, I want to say it was China or somewhere around there. And they asked, like, have you had shark fin soup? Do you know what it is? Like, do you like it? Whatever. And then they were like, well, are you aware that this is how it's made. And so many of people were like, no, I had no idea. And now I won't contribute to that. So it's like, you're so right with, are people even aware of what they're supporting?

Exactly. That's just like, I feel like there's so many questions and conversations to be had around that whole industry. And maybe they've been had and I'm just not aware of them. I'm sure they have in some capacity somewhere. But I would just be so curious because people like us, we're so adamant of how we feel and that it's wrong and we shouldn't be doing this, but we haven't heard the other side of why it's still happening. And I'm just so curious if there's things that we're not even thinking of and things that we're not aware of and a conversation could open a lot of doors. Yeah. And I mean, how many things have we been involved with or done or supported without having all the information and then changing our behavior after we know better? Like it's just- Yeah, exactly.

We can't assume that everyone knows everything we do. Yeah. Or that we know everything and we're not missing something. You know, like it's such a, it's a one-sided conversation where we're like consuming this information that we are actively seeking out, but we don't have the other side of the doors information on their side. It's just it's hard to have a full conversation without all that knowledge. But I guess anyway, that's a really long-winded way to say that.

that Longu is profitable in China. And this specific example that I had read a few minutes ago, it was a 3.5 ounce bottle that sold for $70. Oh, okay. So quite expensive. It's pretty expensive. And not everything was that price. I saw some that were different. But they were varying with prices. But for the same product I was looking at, it was around that. And again, I do want to say, like for this, I'm totally speculating on why this might have been a good way to send to China or a good reason to send these fossils to China. It's not released in the indictment. So I just did my own little investigating to kind of be like, what's going on here? Why? Why is this the place that we would go? Mm-hmm. Switching gears a little bit because it had me asking questions surrounding the value of

dinosaur bones, but I also wanted to dive into the history of discovering them. And that led me to a period that I know that you're aware of, but I was not before. And it's called the Bone Wars, or also known as the Great Dinosaur Rush. And this time period led to the discovery of a lot of species and fossils that you still see in museums today. So I wanted to talk about that a little bit as well. Because in fact, the bones that you're able to see are a direct result of a race to find them between two paleontologists. And the story is so interesting that there's even a book on it called The Bone Wars by Jane Kurtz. And I'm going to tell you a very short version of the story.

But if you guys are interested in this, there's documentaries and there's the book to check it out. Before the Bone Wars, in the mid-1800s, the first dinosaur that was ever discovered was a megalosaurus in 1819. It was found in Oxfordshire, England. And to give you an idea of what a megalosaurus is, it's very similar genetically to a Tyrannosaurus. However, it's a bit smaller. So Tyrannosaurus is thought to have been around 10 tons, while the megalosaurus would be about one to three tons. So it's less than half the size. The bone wars were between two American paleontologists named Edward Drink Cope and Charles Marsh.

They originated as friends and eventually became enemies and became competition for each other in the discovery of dinosaur fossils. It led to a huge mess. it led to bribery, theft, sabotage, and the ultimate goal to destroy each other by any means possible. But despite all this weird stuff going on between them, in their wake, they actually left major discoveries in paleontology. The two of them came from different backgrounds, but they both had a love for science and eventually fossils. Charles Marsh was from a New York family of farmers and was born in 1831. He had a wealthy uncle who was able to pay. his tuition to attend Yale University to study paleontology, which at the time was a very

relatively new subject. He then went on to become a professor of paleontology in the United States and worked at the Peabody Museum of Natural History at Yale University. Edward Drinkcope came from a very wealthy family in Philadelphia and was nine years younger than him. He didn't study paleontology specifically, however he did study anatomy under Joseph Lydie, who was the first person to discover dinosaur bones within the United States. During the Civil War era, his family sent him to work in Europe in the middle of his graduate program so he could avoid the draft that was happening. There, he became a professor of zoology, and he eventually came back to the United States and his family used their money to pay for him

to have an honorary master's degree, and he got a job working for the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia. Now, when the two first men, they were very friendly with each other and they both had a huge interest in paleontology and specifically in dinosaur fossils. So when they started their work and a lot of their studies, they were really in touch with each other a lot. They swapped letters, they would compare fossils with each other,

they swapped manuscripts to read over. They even named some of the fossils they discovered after each other. Edward Cope named an amphibian fossil, Pionis Marshy, after Charles Marsh, and Charles named a giant marine creature, the mossosaurus copianus after Edward. However, this naming of this giant marine creature was actually the beginning of their feud. Shortly after the naming, Charles discovered that the fossil came from a place that Charles had shown Edward previously. Edward had gone behind his back and struck a deal with a landowner to have him tell him first if he found any fossils.

So basically, Charles had a say in this and knew the guy, and Edward was like, hey, I got it in for you if you tell me first, you know. So that didn't go over well. And of course, he's very upset. And not long after that, Edward made a huge mistake in one of his projects, which was kind of like a happy moment for Charles, a bad moment for Edward. Because while reconstructing an Ella Samoris, which is a 50 foot 15, or 15, meter marine dinosaur that is known to have lived around 94 million years ago, he put the skull on the wrong end of the skeleton. The dinosaur had a very long neck and a very long tail. So instead of placing the skull on the neck in the reconstruction, Edward placed it on its tail and then

published his work. And of course, with the feud that had already started, Charles very happily pointed out his mistake and Edward was extremely embarrassed about it. He even tried to buy back all the journals that published his findings, and he put out a new publication immediately to fix the error. But the damage had been done, and they were never friends again after that, and instead, starting from that point, they became rivals. They began working a lot in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana in search of fossils, and it became this almost gold rush to outdo each other. And they got pretty shady with what they were doing. Charles allegedly bribed people not to work for Edward. They would even steal from each other or destroy leftover bones from dig sites. They were digging

up so many bones that they were having a hard time finding places to store them. And it became a race to put out these publications and discoveries between the two of them. And Edward ended up putting out 1,400 articles in just one year to be like, look at me, look at me, look at everything that I'm doing. Whoa. Yeah. It's a lot going on back and forth with each other. And because they were so, focused on outdoing each other and sabotaging each other, it sometimes ended up creating sloppy work and errors. And it wasn't too long until Charles made a very embarrassing mistake himself. A few years later in 1877, he was putting together a long neck dinosaur, which he named the Apatosaurus. And for people like me who don't really know dinosaur names, this is the same dinosaur

that Littlefoot was, or the main characters in the movie The Land Before Time. We all. know Littlefoot, right? Yeah, we, I think we all know little foot. Yeah. Okay. Also, those big herbivores in Jurassic Park, those are the same big long neck ones eating the trees, same ones. See, I'm, that's new to me because I always thought those were brontosaurs. Well, that actually is really funny because that's what I'm going to get into next. Okay. This actually all goes, this all comes back to this, which is, I love that you just said that actually. So he had the skeleton of the, this dinosaur. He had the fossil. Okay. But he didn't have the skull of it. He had everything except for the skull. And he guessed that one he found elsewhere was the same species and he put it on this

fossil skeleton piece. However, he was wrong. The skull he was using was from a camarasaurus, which is actually very similar, but their skulls are different. Later, he found a real full fossilized skeleton of an apatosaurus and named it a bronosaurus because it was actually the same skeleton he had found before but had the correct skull on it. So he had mislabeled it and the bronosaurus actually went on for generations to be called a bronosaurus when the actual name of it is the apodosaurus. Okay, so we all know brontosaurus because he was trying to cover his tracks. Yes. Well, not even cover its tracks is he had incorrectly. He didn't realize that he had the wrong. He made a mistake. And then later when he found the actual full one, he's like, oh, wait, I have the wrong skull on this one. And he renamed it, a Bronosaurus, but he had already found it and named it something else. He just had the wrong head on it. Okay. Wow. I love that. Now, I don't love that. Fun fact. I don't love that. I just, I love knowing that information because it's, it's, it's, it's, just so interesting because I would have never, okay, so just to be clear, a brannosaurus is a

brontosaurus or is it an apatosaurus? Is an apatosaurus, but they're both the same thing. The appropriate name is the apatosaurus, but the widely known name is the pranosaurus. Okay. All right. They're one in the same. They're one in the same. Yes. Interesting. Fun fact. And because he made this mistake, Edward took this opportunity to smear him in publications for this mistake, and it just fueled the fire to their feud. But his mistake didn't stop him from furthering his career. Charles actually then went to become the head paleontologist of the U.S. Geological Survey, and he used his status and connection to politicians here to ban Edward from receiving government funding to support his work. He even tried to have

Edwards' collection seized by the government. Edward retaliated by having an article published in the New York Herald accusing him of plagiarism and mismanagement of government money, which resulted in them in a battle back and forth with each other that eventually ended up ruining both of their reputations. In the end, Congress cut the budget for the U.S. Geological Paleontology Department and got rid of Charles in general. They also forced him to give back his collection of fossils. So, his career was ruined, and with Edwards, no one wanted to buy his collection of fossils or support his work because of all of the bad naming that Charles had done to him before that. So now they were both out of the job, both didn't have good reputations, and they were both completely broke. Ultimately,

they both died within two years of each other, and they died with their reputations completely tarnished. So they were just fighting back and forth, and neither of them won, but the paleontology community did win because this feud ultimately led because they were just going wild trying to find these dinosaur bones and make a name from themselves they discovered 130 new dinosaur species and today museums around the country and the world house fossils that they found and you can still visit them today wow i mean an eye for an eye right he's a whole world blind yeah um and speaking just of visiting places i wanted to conclude this episode since we We've been talking about dinosaurs for a really long time.

With a national park tie-in, of course, and one that we have here in the United States, which is specifically designated for dinosaur fossil preservation and is a hotbed for seeing them. Dinosaur National Monument, which is located on the southeast flank of the Uinta Mountains on the border of both Utah and Colorado, advertises themselves as a place dinosaurs once roamed. Not only did they roam there, but you can still visibly see evidence of them embedded in the rock formations. You can go to this national park and see over 1,500 dinosaur fossils, which are exposed on the cliff face inside the quarry exhibit hall. The hall is an indoor building that has been set around the remains of fossils, so it is accessible to everyone. It looks like it's all ramps.

There's railing access. Anyone can go inside of it if they'd like. They have the allosaurus, the apodosaurus, the pachosaurus, the sclerosaurus, the sclerosaurus, the steggeros, the stegosaurus, and a lot more. The park was originally preserved because of these quarries and the massive finds of fossils. There have been over 800 paleontological sites so far that have been found in the park containing dinosaur remains. I've technically been there.

Technically. Most recently, when I drove from Washington to Colorado, I stopped actually within Dinosaur National Monument to like take a break, let the dogs out. refresh kind of thing. And I did drive up like some of the road systems within the park. But it was, there was no one there. It was shut down. Like I didn't go in to see the quarry or anything, but I have seen pictures of it and stuff. So I don't want to say, I mean, obviously I've been there, but I haven't really experienced it. But it's something that I would love to see because it's so unique. It's so interesting. It's so interesting. And it kind of reminds me, of course,

Like I said, I've never physically been there, but I've seen photos of it. It reminds me of one of my earliest memories with my dad. He was a huge dinosaur buff. And there was a maybe it's still there. I don't know the name of it. But there was a museum in Connecticut where he lived that was very similar. It was built around. Like there was like the main part of the museum was built around this huge swath of ground

that had dinosaurs. tracks on it. So you could walk on like these platforms above all the tracks. And of course, there was exhibits and other things as well. But the coolest part was there was an area out back that you could make, you could pay extra to make plaster casts of a T-Rex footprint. And I did that with my dad. And it's huge. It was like this big. Obviously it's huge. It's a single print, like the three toes, like everything like classic T-Rex print. And then I remember like a classic like kid move that you're like, why would you ever do that? I painted it like pink and green. Like, or purple or something like so like why would you do that? That is a classic kid move. You know, like it kind of ruined it. And then I remember like setting it and bringing it home and I'll have to ask my mom. But like I don't know whatever happened to it. I remember having it forever. And then now like it's kind of nowhere to be found. But that's one of in my earliest memories is going to this dinosaur museum with my dad and taking home like a plaster

cast. Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. Even though you painted it, all the colors, it's still cool. Yeah. It's like, interesting choice, Danielle. But it's a fun memory. Yeah. Well, for this National Park, some of the reasons, because I think it was one thing that's really cool about, seeing these places is asking, well why is this here? Why is this not in my backyard? Why is this not up the street from me? You know, why is it here? And so I looked up why there are so many of these fossils at the dinosaur national monument.

And it is because the rock around it is around these fossils is made up of sand and gravel, much like what you see along a large river. And they believe that 150 million years ago that this area was a river that flowed through. And a lot of these dinosaurs that lived there, died near the river and then ended up being preserved inside the sands that were there. And a little bit about the park itself, the park consists of 210,000 acres of land and offers a lot of recreation opportunities outside of just seeing dinosaurs. This park is one of the few national parks that allows hiking off trails within its boundaries. There are also a lot of

things to do here, not just seeing remnants of dinosaurs, but you can go river rafting on the green or Yapa rivers that run through the park. Camping is allowed. And the park also preserves petroglyphs left by earlier people who inhabited the area, which is really cool to see. And there are also ranger-guided programs and activities that are offered to help you learn more about the park and all the fossils that are there, which is no one better to talk to than a ranger and experts that are in the area. So basically, if you are looking for a national park that is largely designated for dinosaurs and recreation activities. Dinosaur National Monument is the one that you went ahead to. And that is my story of dinosaurs.

Top five for me. It's so funny because when I wrote this, it's not that my notes are short, but it's shorter than some of our other ones. And I was like, yeah, it'll probably like be one of our shorter episodes. And then as soon as we got to talking, I was like, no, it's not. So Danielle, cannot shut up about this. So now I'm stoked about it. I love it. Yeah, well, thanks for covering it because, and it's interesting, like, because when you first said you were going to cover a dinosaur story and then tie it to the monument, my first thought was the Bone Wars angle. And of course, you covered that and gave a good synopsis about it. And I didn't know, like, I picked up the book, that book, Bone Wars, and I read the first, I want to say the first three chapters when we were in Patagonia. I remember that. But then something happened and I just like, It disappeared from my life. Forgot about it.

Well, it's hard to, you know, read the book without actively taking notes. You know, when we're away, it's hard. So maybe I just went into the ether. But I like how you did a case, even though not all of the information is there because it's still unfolding. It's interesting. It makes it current and something that like this isn't something that happened in the 1800s and lives there. Like, this is still an ongoing thing. and it's very much happening and unfolding now.

So it'll give us something to keep tabs on as it kind of progresses. And what did you say, January 27th, 2025? You got it. It's Chaska's adopt anniversary. Oh, well, that's an easy way to remember then. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, that date, I know. So yeah, cool.

Well, thank you for covering it. And thanks for everyone if you're still here for holding on with all our sidebar conversation. I know we typically don't do that, but this was an episode that it was warranted, and I'm glad you covered it. For sure. Thank you. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. And I had fun researching it because it's just like, what can I talk about?

That is really interesting. And we've never talked. I was looking for a subject we've never touched on before. And I was going down a rabbit hole of a lot of different things. And then dinosaurs popped up. And I was like, yep, that's it. I found it. Here it is.

There it is. Well, thank you, everyone, again, for tuning in. will see you next time in the meantime. Enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at NPAD Podcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our Outsiders only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free. Unlock monthly bonus. episodes and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show.

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