National Park After Dark - Trail Tales 90 ft. Rangers of the Lost Park

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

Today’s stories all have a theme - rangers! We are joined by former US Forest Service field ranger Liz Crandall to chat between the tales about the current state of public lands, what challenges they are facing - and more importantly, how we can help and keep hope alive. Rangers of the Lost Park: Instagram Rangers of the Lost Park: Website Get involved with Conservation Lands Foundation: Here Resistance Rangers Instagram Take Action for Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument Take Action to Save the Boundary Waters Take Action for Big Bend For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials: Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdark Support the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to this week’s partners! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. I'm Cassie. And I'm Danielle. And we have a really special Trail Tales episode edition. I almost said, is it edition? Do we say that now? We have a very special Trail Tales edition today because we have a returning guest and she is one of our favorite people ever. Yeah. If you were with us for our love worth fighting for when we talked about public lands and the terminations that were happening in the National Parks. and everything about pretty much a year ago at this point, Liz Crandall was with us then, and she is joining us today for a special Trail Tales episode where we are going to, we have a ranger theme, but we're also going to be diving into some of the biggest questions that you all have had about what is going on in our public lands right now. So before we get started to reintroduce you to Liz Crandall, if you have not heard of her yet, you will today and go check out our last episode. but she has been called a unicorn by a variety of groups and individuals within the last year or so.

This is due to her diverse career experience in the outdoor industry, her strong ability to speak up in advocacy, and the fact that she was illegally fired by Doge last year. Liz is a former U.S. Forest Service field ranger who patrolled the backcountry for fires, trash dumps, illegal roads, and trail maintenance. After nearly nine years with the U.S. Forest Service, Liz has seen her fair share of wild fire incidences as a militia firefighter has cleaned up and hauled out hundreds of thousands of pounds of trash in the forest and has educated thousands of visitors to leave no trace and protect

public lands. That all changed in February since her unprecedented termination. She has spoken up for Rangers and Public Lands all over 30 news networks and multiple podcasts, including ours, and was even invited to be the honored guest of an Oregon representative to the State of the Union in Washington, D.C. last March. She has been flown to D.C. three times to speak to Congress about protecting national parks, forests, and conservation lands. Fully embracing her new role as a public lands advocate, Liz now works for Conservation Lands Foundation and is the independent host of Rangers of the Lost Park podcast.

The podcast is her absolute passion and is a vessel to teach listeners about issues impacting parks, water, and wildlife. Most importantly, Liz strives to help listeners find joy. in a world of bad news. She has interviewed amazing outdoor advocates such as documentary filmmaker Ken Burns and the first indigenous National Park Service director Chuck Sams, as well as Rangers,

a diverse array of outdoor enthusiasts and more. When she isn't recording, editing, or producing the show, you can find Liz reading an adventurous book or out in the Oregon woods, hunting for mushrooms, and probably learning about beavers because apparently everyone in Oregon knows a thing or two about beavers. So we are so excited to welcome Liz, back to the show, pretty much our year anniversary since we last spoke.

I know. It's been pretty much exactly a year, which is kind of wild. And thank you, first of all, for having me last year and then having me back this year. And the change from then and now is pretty crazy. So it's really exciting to come on and talk about it. I know you've been up to you a lot. And we can't wait to touch base with you about it. But just to let everyone know what we're doing for this episode, you're going to help us, well, you're going to be here to listen to us, share some trail tales that are Ranger themed. I don't think we've ever done an intentional theme for Trail Tales before. Sometimes they pop up, but it's never on purpose.

Yeah. Well, this is like a dream. I feel like listeners are like, I would love to be on a Trail episode and here I am, so I am fully appreciating it. Thank you. Of course. Yeah. So we have some Ranger themed trail tales today for every.

And then we're going to just chat with Liz throughout about some things that are going on in national parks and public lands that are kind of at top of mind for all of us who have been paying attention to what's been happening over the last year. Because about a year ago, we really honed in on the termination of all of the public land workers. And we just wanted to catch up and see what's been going on. And we'll do that throughout the episode. Yeah, I think that this is going to be a, our emotions are going to be all over the place because we're going to go from trail tales to rage to inform. So I think we're sprinkling in some fun trail tales so everyone can kind of get a mix of the trail tales and what's happening in the world right now. All right. Well, I'm first. I have our first trail tale today. It's on the shorter side, but ready, which is rare for us, but it's a good one.

So our first trail tale today begins. Hi, Cassie and Danielle. My name is Cherise. I love your podcast. I started listening around Trail Tales 8 and cannot stop. I used to be a park ranger at Hickory Run State Park, Lehigh Gorge State Park, and Nessau. Oh my gosh. I should have pronounced. I'm going to figure the test. God, Cherise. Nesso Copac State Park. They surround Jim Thorpe, a nearby town that it is awesome to visit, which is so interesting. because Jim Thorpe has been coming up. Yeah, it's been coming up on my algorithm all the time recently because there's a really cool train, like Art Deco fun train that goes around there. I did a motorcycle trip down there. I did an all-woman's ride where they teach you how to ride dirt bikes or if you already know how they bring you out on like all these cool trails and stuff. And because I ride dual sport, we were out in the woods.

But then afterwards, we drove through Jim Thorpe and it's a really cute town. I don't know if I've ever been there, so I'd like to learn more. Yeah, gotta go. Well, Sharise's story says, now on for my story, the Gettysburg Ghost Story. When I was a kid, my family would camp at Gettysburg Battlefield Resort every summer. My family and I were sitting inside our pop-up camper getting ready for bed when my four-year-old little sister, Nicole, came walking inside. She said, full of excitement. I have a new friend outside.

His name is Barry. My parents asked, okay, who's Barry? To which she responded, Barry is outside on top of the camper. He's playing cards in a soldier uniform with his friends at the train station. This is why I can't have kids. This is why we should all pay attention to kids and the weird things that they say. Because sometimes...

This is my nightmare. It's ghost-related. It's like, Graham. What are you saying? This came completely out of nowhere and all of us were extremely freaked out. As we looked outside, we saw nothing on our camper. A few moments later, we all saw a white cat walking across the campground, and my sister yelled, that's Barry. We brushed it off as her having a wild imagination. A few days later, we got home and started to unpack our car. As we were all walking up the

path to go inside, we all stopped in our tracks. Sitting on our front porch was an all white cat, to which my sister yelled, Barry, it was as if he was waiting there for us all along. We live in a very rural area, so straight cats are common. None, however, would usually sit on our front porch and we never saw a white cat. My parents asked the neighbors if they had seen a white cat around while we are away, and they all said no. And we all never saw this cat ever again. I never really believed in ghosts, but to this day, we cannot explain what happened. And my sister remembers the entire event. Thanks for listening, Cherise. Wow. Ghost to a cat that then followed them home from getting.

at Eastburg, which I think a soldier playing cards on the roof of your camper, not bothering anyone, then turns into a cat that you get to take home. That's kind of fun. Only for a second, though. Yeah. I think it was cool. I, it's so funny because it's an interesting story because I'm also kind of one of those people where I'm not like a big ghost believer by any means.

I think it's fascinating and I don't say no because I like fun and I think it's interesting. But you're skeptical. I am a natural skeptic to certain things, but I really enjoy hearing about it. And I don't know if it's true or not. Like I could be wrong too. Like, you know, who knows? But I did see a white fox in Yellowstone when I worked there one night. And they're like, there's no white foxes here.

Like, there's no way you saw that. And I ended up writing a song about it because I was like, I'm pretty sure that was a ghost or some kind of sign telling me something. So I did have my own experience with a white animal. Oh, that's so cool. What a coincidence. That's why you picked to that trail tale. I know. That's perfect.

I sensed it. You know, that's what I was like, okay, my energy when I was preparing this. I'm like, I feel like Liz would appreciate this. I do. I know I know why. I also love cats. There we go. Well, speaking of signs, kind of transitioning into something that is on top of mind for a lot of us.

who love the national parks in public lands and have been seeing the news going around about the sign removal, literal sign removal, and interpretive information that is being removed from various national park sites and locations that include, quote, unquote, you know, divisive information. Let's talk about it. Let's do it. That's important. It's happening at a rapid pace, too.

And it's, I mean, it's not like this has never happened before. There's this, I want to preface by saying, actually, that, you know, we've seen so many times in the history of the United States where we've, the government has just done absolutely atrocious, horrible things all across parties. Doesn't matter. It's our history. It happened. And it's still happening sometimes, unfortunately. But many of those events are memorialized in national parks and monuments and historic sites. And, you know, from imprisoning legal residents and citizens back.

than it's happening again now, murdering peaceful people, or the idea that anyone other than a straight, white, able-bodied man is lesser than. Like, that's been rhetoric for a long time. So these lessons learned from history, they need to be remembered. And they're at these amazing sites that we love to visit and are part of our public lands. But, you know, I like this quote by Mark Twain. It's history doesn't repeat itself. It rhymes because technically nothing could be exactly the same situation as the past, but it can rhyme with it and it can be all too familiar. But how are you going to know that if you can't hear it because it's forgotten and it's not put anywhere for people to learn about? Because not everybody is as educated as the next. Like people have different varying

degrees or maybe schooling or just different communities that they're a part of. So what's really beautiful about national parks and these sites is that you can go there to learn. And millions and millions of people visit these places every year. So it's, you know, it's no coincidence that wanting to take this out is to deprive the masses of this information that they think is against the American value, whatever that means. So, yeah, I just want to preface with that. But I mean, it's, it's interesting, too, because some people, when you talk about this, they think, oh, you're leaning one way politically or the next, but it doesn't matter if you see something wrong, it shouldn't matter what your party is or what your affiliate is.

you see something wrong like it's our duty as Americans to be like, hey, actually, you know what, that's not very cool. Then we should call it out. And it's part of our democracy is that we have the ability to do that. Yeah, exactly. And it's, you know, just to give your listeners some background on me too, because they're probably like, we kind of remember you. I was in the, I love worth fighting for speaking up for our public lands episode one year ago.

I think it came out March 3rd. And you both interviewed me right after I was illegal. fired by Doge because I worked for the Forest Service for nine years. And all the thousands of people, I think it was almost 4,200 or something was the number of public lands rangers were fired illegally. And it was just a whirlwind experience. It was so unprecedented and strange, very inefficient and chaotic. I mean, I even had very conservative coworkers coming up to me and saying, like, this isn't what we wanted. We're so sorry. So again, this isn't a nonpartisan issue. Like, this is. This is affecting everybody. I just really want to stress that because I would get some messages

from people saying it's just because you don't like this president. It's like, no, it's not. That's not the reason why. It's because this is not how you efficiently run something that is meant to serve a greater purpose. So I just need to preface that. And also just a little fun tidbit before I dive into some other things too is like, so I live in Oregon. And it was so funny because on one of your trail tales recently, you had somebody write in and they said, I'm from Oregon. So naturally I know a lot about beavers. You guys were really good. Oh, I remember that one. They're like, oh, is that, is that a thing? So Oregon is the beaver state. It's on our flag. It's not that was funny. That makes sense. There it is. I just, I wanted to give that little antidote because I just thought it was really funny. So do you know a lot about

beavers? I actually weirdly do. So it's true. It's true. I also learned a lot about them from tooth and claw, your friends. Because there's some good episodes on that. But yeah, so I'm a big nature nerd. Love being outside. And so seeing all of this stuff happened last year was pretty heartbreaking, like, heartbreaking, to say the least. And so relating that to what's happening with censorship now, so I also want to say that I'm not an expert in this conversation by any means. I'm just somebody who has a lot of knowledge and experience in it. I actually recommend to your listeners to check out Resistance Rangers.

They're on Instagram and they have a podcast. as well, but they are, if you really want, like, all the nitty-gritty details about what's going on, they're a great resource. So I would highly recommend them. But do you guys just want to kind of go over a couple of the things that have happened? And some of your episodes have talked about it as well. So yeah, I think for people listening, especially for people listening who maybe have never heard of the censorship that's going on, I'd love to dive into exactly what is being removed from national parks because we've seen it throughout the news, you know, we've seen that there's signs regarding slavery that are being taken down climate change, things like that. Women's history.

Women's history. We'd love to dide a little bit more into exactly what is being removed from national park signage. Yeah. And I think it's really important to start at the root of like why this has begun or why this is going on. And that was March 27th of last year, 2025, the executive order called restoring truth and sanity to American history was published. And it basically was criticizing the last administration saying that they were sponsoring training that was dismantling Western foundations and stuff like that. They didn't like that people were being trained to know the dark side of history, essentially. And so they actually specifically named in this executive order the Independence National Historic Park in Philadelphia. So this

wasn't like a came out of nowhere situation. I think it did sneak up on some people because that was March last year. And the independence, it was called freedom and slavery in the making of a new nation is what was taken down. And it was at the Philadelphia's president house site. So it's a National Park Service site. And that was on January 22nd. So it was almost a year later that that language was actually enacted. So but then luckily a federal judge in February said, no, that's not cool. And I want to share this quote from Resistance Rangers that I laugh because it makes me like sad, but they said one down as in like one interpretive site saved, 432 to go because that's how many essentially are being slated to be taken out of these sites, which is kind of insane.

That's a big number. And they're also putting up signage in parks. I know I've seen them myself that are asking the public to report. So that number that you just mentioned could escalate. hugely depending on what people are reporting is what they deem as un-American or divisive. Devisive. Exactly. Insanity from American history or whatever. And I shouldn't say un-American, but that, like you mentioned, paints American or decisions

of former administrations or our history in a bad light, you know, like the decision of other administrations to put this information up for public display and whatever. they want to just kind of strip that all away. And they're asking, yeah, us to deem that like, hey, that I don't like that. We should take it down type of thing. And before you go on, we did talk about this. I don't remember when it was on another episode. But we did mention, and we put it in our monthly newsletter, an organization called Save Our Signs.

Have you heard of them? Yeah. Yeah. So basically, in direct response to those. callouts for public input about removing language. They're essentially putting out one out of their own saying, hey, when you're out in these different places and you see this language that you think may be in the crosshairs to be removed in the future, please document it. Because once it's gone, who knows if they're going to ever put it back or destroy it or warp that language. So essentially

just capturing it for what it is right now so that we have like this database to reflect on in the future. God, I love that. Yeah, I love it when humans think smarter. It's so awesome. Yeah, that's really important. I'm sure that's how a lot of people have found out like what might be removed as well. But there was actually a leak recently that just happened showing a ton of different stuff

that was going to be removed. But I think before I get to that, just some other things that have happened that are just worth mentioning to folks because I think a lot of people also, and this is something that in my podcast, Rangers of Lost Park, that I'm really trying to highlight is that there is so much happening in the world, in our country. It's really easy to lose sight of things or to like forget about certain things or to just become so overwhelmed that we just kind of get numb to it. And that's a systemic strategy that the governments around the world, not just the United States used to overwhelm citizens so they don't get on board.

with being against things as often as, you know, traditionally people would have been when we were smaller countries and less people. So now because there's just so much happening, it's really easy to get that feeling of, ah, like, this is really stressful. I don't, what do I do? Like, I can't be perfect. Yeah, exactly. So just remembering to find joy within it all and to like have hope without having like toxic positivity obviously because I can't stand that. But to be like, I'm going to focus on these issues and just try to learn about it. And then that's the best. I can do. That's like the best thing anybody can do is just to learn. And then if you want to take action, which I highly encourage, there's a lot of different ways you can do that. And you can pick and

choose and you don't have to be the perfect advocate. Nobody is. So I just want to preface that as well. But in the vein of learning, so a couple of things just to remember that have happened, and I'll try to be pretty quick here because I don't want to take up too much time on this. But the scourged back was a photograph of a man who was a former slave. And it was a picture of his back that was all super scarred from being whipped. And it was in several different park sites. And there was more than four sources within the park service said that they are ordering the DOI, which is the Department of Interior is ordering us to take this down.

And so it was kind of interesting because people jumped on it before it actually got taken down. And so news media blew up about it. People were, you know, understandably upset. They're like, why would you take this down? That's really weird. And then DOI came out and said, oh, we never ordered that. And they never took it down, but all these sources say otherwise. So that's just something to mention because that was a confusing one for some people because

they're like, where was it? It's like, it's at several sites. And then on February 9th, and I loved your episode Stonewall National Monuments Uprising with LGBTQ Outdoors. That was such a good episode, y'all. I just want to commend you for that. But on February 9th, their flag, their rainbow flag, was removed. And luckily it has since been put back up because that is another part of history of oppressed peoples.

And it's celebrating the hardships, you know, that these people went through to get to where they are today. And that's really important. So putting that out there. Mirror Woods was another big one that was in the news. I'm trying to remember what it was called. I think it was called History Under Construction. And it had like indigenous history on it. And that one was taken out, which people were really upset about.

Everybody's upset about this stuff. Understandably so. I mean, you're depriving Americans of their right to know the history of where we come from and where we live. And I think it's something that people talk, we got in this comment before of, well, if you don't love your country, it sounds like you don't love America. Why are you just leave? Why are you upset about this? And that's actually totally the opposite. We love our country and we feel like we have the right to know the history that's here and to watch that that knowledge.

and education being pulled from us is something that our democracy has set us up to be able to be angry about. And that is what our country allows us to do is to speak up for things like this. So good, so good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom rack stores now and up to 60% off.

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You know, our whole reflecting back on our episode, we lasted together and what we titled it, you know, a love worth fighting for. You fight for things that you love. And that's what we're seeing, not only with us, you know, we're just a drop in an ocean of people who are so upset about this. stuff because we love our country so much. It's not it's couldn't be farther from the truth, but you know, that comment kind of, I think that we've gotten it a couple times and each time it stings a bit, you know, and it comes with the territory of having a public platform, but also a public platform in which we speak about some things that can be divisive in nature as far as what people, where people feel, you know, place their feelings. And if it isn't clear now, we've done

350 episodes about, you know, public lands that we really care a lot about and in a country that we love. So we're just trying to do our best for it, you know? I think that's really well said. I'd one last point, if I may, because on both of what you both, like what you both just said, it really resonates with that. And that's, I heard somebody on Resistance Rangers podcast actually say that you can't actually truly love something unless you know the good, the bad, and the ugly. Are you going to be in a relationship with somebody who you only know the good about? No, you need to know everything. And I think another quote, Lance Garland is a queer author, and he's amazing.

And he said something that I thought was really an amazing quote. He said, our ancestors and the folks who fought for their rights who are no longer with us today, and those who still are deserve to be honored by celebrating the achievements they have accomplished. And this also means recognizing what oppressed them in the first place. It's not to cause division. It's to acknowledge truth. And I just think that's so well said. I agree.

Agreed. I don't even know how to segue. I can help with that. Sorry. Okay, perfect. And also just really important going back to Rangers, since this is a Ranger-themed Trail episode, Rangers don't have any say in this stuff.

Like, they're just, they're unfortunately just having to do their job and do it. But luckily, they're quite vocal in their own way. And we love them for that. Rangers are really awesome people and have a lot of, incredible stories to share. Yes, and some of them are on our podcast today with our trail tales. So we can, I have my next one. So speaking of Ranger Stories, we have some on our trail tales today, of course. And my next story is titled, The World's Coolest Job in Norway,

which I know Daniel picked for me because I want to go to Norway so bad. You are going to Norway. Yeah, in a year and a half, which is really exciting for me. when that happens. Okay, this one says, hi Cassie and Danielle. I've been listening to your podcast for so long that you feel like my friends. There's a story I want to tell you. However, I will be very recognizable to anyone else who is there at the same time if I give too many details about myself. I can tell you that I am from a European country, but as very few people have had this job, I don't want to be more specific than that. Please forgive the lack of proper introduction. Okay, keep your secrets. An unspecific amount of time ago, I had the absolute coolest job for an unspecific amount of time.

Fjord Ranger in Gear Ranger, Norway. Ever seen a photo of Gear Ranger? If not, look it up right now. It's like stepping into a painting. The Gear Ranger Fort. I think it's pronounced Yeh ring your fjord. Isn't it? We're talking about this before you got on.

And she's like, I looked up how you say that. I'm like, who has to say that? And then we saw it was you and I'm like, oh shit. Oh, shit. So should I start it again? I can. How is it pronounced? It said, yay, ranger.

Yay, ringer. They like, emphasis on the yay. Okay. I'll just start that sentence again. Yay Ranger, Norway. An unspecific amount of time ago, I had the absolute coolest job for an unspecific amount of time. Fior Ranger in Yer Rangor, Norway.

Ever seen a photo of Yeranger? If not, look it up right now. it's like stepping into a painting. The Yehranger Fyodor area is a UNESCO World Heritage Site because of the landscape, which of course means there's a lot of tourists. The Fyord Ranger gig included, among other things, guiding on many cruises from Os-Alson. Sorry, I do not know how to pronounce Norway things.

Oslund, too, Yeh Ranger, lots of hikes with extra supplies for tourists, and the best part, private guided tours and hikes. I was waiting for a group for a private guided hike and the group was running late, so naturally I popped a pod into my ear and clicked play on your podcast. I disappeared into the story and was startled when someone touched my shoulder from behind. It was a young woman standing next to a young man, both wearing appropriate clothes and shoes for a hike. Yes, that is a rarity. I apologize for not hearing them and after checking that they were in fact my group and we weren't waiting for anyone else, they apologized for being late while I shiebushishly told them,

I had been listening to a podcast and zoned it out. Oh, no worries. That's what happens to us, too, and why we were late. They told me they had actually arrived early, found a spot nearby to relax while they waited and lost track of time. We laugh, start our hike, and I tell them about everything from what the shape of the mountains tell us about how the Yey-Ranger Fjord was formed to biodiversity, the history of human settlement, daily life in the village, recent and current studies,

and Norwegian environmental politics. When we reached the top of where we were going, we sat down to relax for a bit, and the conversation diverts back to podcasts. Turns out the reason they were late and the reason I didn't pay attention when they arrived were one and the same. We're actually two. You. We hiked back down the best of friends talking so much that we were all more winded going down than we had been going up. Between tourists arriving for a mountain hike with babies and strollers, flip-flops, recent hip surgeries, or asking what time of night we'd Turn the waterfalls off. This was definitely in my top three guiding experiences. Thank you for facilitating these types of connections and for teaching us all so much.

And in case Haley and Jack from Arizona are listening, I hope you're well that you enjoyed the rest of your trip. And thanks for the hike with love, a former Fjord Ranger, though always one at heart. Heartwarming. You are all listening to us in Norway. In Norway. way the place I want to be. I thought that was so cool. The connections that happen that we've found just like through people telling us about experiences like this that our podcast has facilitated it's just so it never gets old. It's such a classic ranger story too of somebody that is so used to

seeing like they mentioned you know when do the waterfalls get turned off and you know people having hip surgery recently and trying to summit crazy things and you're like why are you doing this? We're going to have to rescue you. So seeing stuff like that. And then to like have that great experience of meeting someone so awesome and just like really hitting it off. And I just think that's really cool. It is. Yeah.

Especially across. I mean, those the couple is from where Arizona. You know? Yeah. That's fun. I wonder which ones they were talking about. What episodes? Yeah.

What did you guys bond over? I bet it was Night of the Grizzlies. Bye. Could bet any amount of money. It would be that one. Yeah. Well, and also this location. I mean, I didn't look it up because I don't know where my phone is, but I would have.

I can envision it kind of the classic Norwegian landscape, beautiful fjords and just like picture perfect desktop background type of landscape. And, you know, we have our fair share of those types of beautiful places here too in America. I mean, of course, our national park system began, you know, with Yellowstone and it kind of just set the precedent. of national parks around the world. And we have so much diversity in our parks from the swampy Everglades to, you know, the badlands and up here in Maine with the coast. And just we have so much worth protecting. But I think that over the last few years, especially, we've seen a lot of attacks on places like this, especially up in Alaska and things like that. So we really wanted to touch based on that because of course again going back a year it was kind of just like I feel like

it was just this huge eruption of everyone's getting fired everything is now on the chopping block as far as being open for drilling or building or destruction or privatization or and all of that and we did discuss you know this isn't necessarily new and you've put you've brought that up too before this isn't a first of its kind type of thing but I I think it just all kind of exploded at once a year ago. And we've kind of just been left in the aftermath of what happened. And yet it's still happening. So can we talk about this a little bit?

And you can maybe tell us what big things are kind of in happening right now. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's really interesting that we got a ranger story from somebody in Norway. Because, you know, National Park started in the United States. And so all the other countries that have gotten national parks, it's a mirror image in ways with conservation and preservation of how we do things in the United States. I'm curious what they think about what's happening here. Because I mean, it's a lot that's going on.

And like I was saying earlier, it's like so much to keep up with, you know. I'm glad we're talking about it. And I know that your listeners really care about parks and these beautiful spaces. And it's important that we kind of know what's going on again. just going back to that education piece and then take action from there. But there was actually a recent analysis from the Center for American Progress, and it found that, and this is kind of an interesting fact, that the already initiated actions by this current administration would strip protections

from nearly 88 million acres of public lands, which is equivalent of 117, Yosemites. I don't know how many Titanic's. How am I supposed to know? But I'll try to look it up while you're. I'm curious. But a lot of Yosemite. Titanic. Do you have like a Titanic calculator?

Hold on. I want to guess, though. Why don't you get the answer? Because you just told me a few weeks ago that Greenland National Park, or Northeast Greenland National Park, which is the largest in the world, is 1.2 billion Titanic. It's so insane. Yeah. I can't even got them. I feel like that girl with all the calculations in her mind.

We're just making math so much harder. Anything but the metric system. And it also doesn't matter at all, but I just like it. Okay. Do you have the answer? I do. Okay. Okay.

Is it 700 million Titanic's? No way off. God. Okay, what is it? You got the million part, right? It's 44 million Titanic's. Okay. There we go, everybody.

You heard it here. That's how many public lands area or acres of public lands are being threatened right now. Which we're laughing about, but it's not funny. It's not funny. No, no. I am a nervous lapper, I will say. Same. Take that how you will.

But the scope of the actions from this, it's kind of crazy in the sense that this is the only president. This is a fact in U.S. history to have removed. moved protections for more public lands than they have protected. So just let that sink in. So that's what we're dealing with right now. Yeah, which is crazy too because this president has signed in things in his last administration that actually were protecting some places.

They weren't his idea, but he still signed them. So it's like complete flip in this regard. So the public land sell-off was the biggest thing to talk about last year. And I'm sure a lot of people heard about it with Senator Mike Lee from Utah trying to sell millions of acres and it was under the name of or the guise of having housing. But many people were like, that's not feasible. It's too far away.

There's not enough resources. So remote. So remote. It's not suitable for living in like a sustainable way. So and that's not really what it was about. I mean, it was about having it for sale for private interest groups, which is not a conspiracy theory because other people have said that that were behind it. for it. So yeah, I mean, in April, we saw like the Pacific Remote Islands Marine National

Monument. I tried to see if you have done an episode about that spot, but I didn't find anything, but it's near Hawaii. Oh, no. Okay. Sorry. I thought it was, I thought it was like, no. Yeah, you're right. I don't think we have. We can be convinced to though. Yeah. Really? The new spot. Yeah. Well, they called for open marine mining in that area. I did see that. Really fragile. So that's, that's one. And again, the sell-off in May that happened. Luckily, people were like, hell no, all across, like, nonpartisan, everyone was like, no, we don't like that. And then in May, that's when the censoring history signs with the QR codes popped up that were saying report stuff that you don't like or that you think is negative about American history. And then

in June, we had the Western Arctic officially announced that, the Department of Interior officially announced that they were going to open and repeal protections for 13 million acres of protected areas in the Western Arctic. I just feel so bad for Alaska. They have, it's like it's so big and there's so much natural resource area, so many natural resource areas. And I think a lot of people just want to like exploit that. But we just, we need these wild areas. They're beautiful. Why people like to visit national parks and places out in the woods. So that's a big one. And then I would say the next big one to talk about would be the roadless rule, which is under the Forest Service, there's areas that are called roadless. And it's just as it sounds, roads aren't supposed to go through them.

It's meant to be intact. And there's still like fire mitigation that can happen around it. That's not like not going to happen. But you just can't build new roads. And there was a, in June, they were saying, the U.S. Department of Agriculture came out and said that they wanted to roll back that rule. And this rule has been around since 2001 and it's been relentlessly attacked so many times but it still stays strong so hopefully that continues to happen but that's it won't unless we all speak up about it and yeah that affects the forest surface specifically but a lot of those roadless areas are surrounding like national historic sites and parks and monuments and stuff so they're it's all connected there's not like one thing that's worth fighting for more than the other it's just like they're

they're all interconnected in that way so yeah there's there's a lot of other examples I could share but I just really wanted to hone in on the boundary waters is a big one that's come up recently and I know you both talked about it and that's like opening it to a Chilean mining company to it's to extract copper and it's it's not renewable it has an expiration there's not going to be an endless amount and it's directly upstream of the boundary waters wilderness so and how does that benefit American people it doesn't it goes to Chile grab yeah yeah yeah yeah it's pretty strange. And I know another one that's been in the news a lot recently and our listeners in particular have been really asking us about and wanting to advocate for is the wall that's

being proposed in Big Bend. And actually, as of this recording today, I noticed that that plan is actually seems like it's gone underwater and is not happening. They're actually, instead of proposing a wall, they're proposing surveillance systems. Yeah. Instead. Which makes sense. I mean, I've never personally been to Big Bend, but I know people that have worked near the border for the Park Service and they were like, no one's walk it through that. It's crazy expansive. It's huge. It's super dangerous if you were to walk across the border and navigate your way into the United States through Big Bend National Park. That's that's death wish. That's wild. So then there was actually a conservative sheriff in Texas who even called it God's barrier. He's like, we don't need a wall. We already have something there. already a wall. It's a natural one. Yeah. Yeah. And luckily, yeah, luckily it looks like they're, they're going to steer away from that. And again, it's because people spoke up and said, no, we don't want this. So we really, our voices, when we come together collectively, really do make a difference. And there's two things I really wanted to highlight last just because I think,

and this is my little soapbox, I'm going to get on for a quick second, is that a lot of people really focus protections towards national parks specifically the most. And it, one, one, thousand percent deserves that attention. I also vehemently believe or strongly believe that all the other agencies like Bureau of Land Management, National Conservation Lands, for instance, and U.S. Forest Service lands and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Refuges, those deserve the same attention and they don't really get it a lot. And that's also because it's not as like sexy as the parks. Like everyone loves going to the parks. They have the coolest visitor centers. They have the most interpretive education, signage, breathtaking vistas and views.

And then these other places, they might be a smaller scale or not as grandeur in that regard of like advertisement and drawing people in. But they're just as beautiful in their own way. And they often get overlooked. So a big one is the Grand Staircase Escalane National Monument in Utah, just huge. Which has been in the news a lot lately. Yeah. Have you guys been there?

Yes. I have not. I've never been there. I've always wanted to go. It's huge. It's like the size of Delaware. It's a massive place. Expansive. Yeah. And it's under the Bureau of Land Management. And so that one's getting

attacked for they want to repeal the current management plan that's on it that had like tribal coalition input and local business owners and local government and organizations. And it had so like years worth of input being put into it. And they want to repeal it to put it back to the old plan, which was much looser in resource extraction and things like that. So again, it just goes back to that narrative of exploitation as opposed to like conserving it and keeping it intact for future generations, which is the whole point, right? It's to protect these places for the future. So that's when I hope people pay attention to and speak out about because it's,

it's kind of fuzzy how it's explained a lot of the times. But basically it's not trying to like undo it as a monument, but that could be what happens later down the line if they continue to kind of pick away at it because that's the ultimate goal. in a lot of those ways. And then lastly, the Red Cliffs, the Red Cliffs National Conservation Area in southwest Utah, luckily it just got a judge ruled that they don't, that it was going to be reversing protections. They didn't want that. But there was a, they wanted the government, federal government wanted to put a highway, a four lane highway through this conservation area that is its own highway of desert tortoise. And they're really not doing well. Their numbers are dwindling. And so this is a really. really important area for them. And, you know, people are saying they want to build this highway through it. And it doesn't even make any sense to do that because it just, it's not leading you to other main arteries.

It's in the middle of nowhere. So anyways, that's the last one I wanted to just mention on that. Well, thank you for bringing attention to them because the way you were explaining that, as far as, you know, national parks kind of get all the glory, but also look at these guys over here. They're just as important. I equate that very much so in regards to wildlife conservation on every sort of fundraising campaign or clickbaity stuff. It's save the polar bear, save the gorillas, save the tiger, save the, you know, these iconic big species that people really tug at people's heartstrings and they deserve protection.

But then there's a plethora of this long list of other species, and especially insects or really, reptiles that are smaller and not as cute and fuzzy or, you know, get the attention and money coming in, but, you know, they deserve the same sort of attention and they serve ecological roles as well. I feel like it's very similar. Great comparison. I agree. Yeah. It's like you're much more likely to want to save a baby bear than a spider. Like that's, they're totally different, but they serve very important purposes each. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, I have a story that is titled Called Out by the National Park Service. Oh, shit.

Let's see what this is all about. Hello, ladies. I've been a long time listener and have enjoyed every episode. I won't do the whole spiel y'all have heard a hundred times, but just know that I love you. We like those spills. I know, please include it next time. I need validation. I'm calling you out now.

You better tell us next time. Just kidding. In May of 2024, I left my home. in Arkansas and headed towards Michigan for a seasonal position at Isle Royal National Park. Won't get into the details of the solo road trip, but involved accidentally ending up on a snowmobile trail, sand in an AWD vehicle, rock hounding for hours and lots of lighthouses. Once I made it to the park's headquarters in Houghton, Michigan, and onto a seven-hour ferry ride, I was ready for the adventure, working and exploring the remote island and would be there for the next

five months. Y'all, I was not prepared to have that much fun. I won't go into all of the events and adventures that we had except for this one because the National Park Service rangers gave us so much shit for it. And suspiciously, the Isle Royal National Park Service page on Instagram posted about the location the very next week, definitely calling us out. Oh, you know you did something wrong if you get posted on their social media page. Oh my God. What did you do? What did you do? On September 15th, 2024, my friend, we will call her Allie and I, headed out to Duncan Bay.

We hadn't seen that part of the island and wanted to see it before we left the island for the season via the Portage Trail. It wasn't too far from the Rock Harbor where we lived and worked. That morning, it was fairly windy, and we were visiting with one of the Rangers taking one last look at the map and joking about us kayaking around Blake's Point,

which is very dangerous and not allowed at all per our bar. Our ranger friend was very against it. Our plan was to kayak across Tobin, hike the portage trail, and swim around in Duncan Bay. That was the plan. That's what our bosses thought, as well as our other friends and the rangers. That is not what happened. As soon as we got into our tandem kayak, I mean as soon as we hit the water, Ali said, let's go around Blake's Point.

And I agreed. You guys are bad. We kayaked from Tobin Harbor, seaplane dock to Blake's Point. about four and a half miles, we had a lot of fun getting to the point, but we were constantly asking each other, was this a good idea? When it was time to kayak around the point, that is when regret hit both of us. The first thing we saw right around the point was a freighter less than three miles from us. We were in open water in a tandem kayak, rock music blasting from the Bluetooth speaker, Canada in our site, big waves on one side, and big rocks on the other. And stress

was running high. Allie was yelling and cussing about how insane and stupid we were. Wasn't it her idea? Allie, piped out. She has regrets. Yeah. I was focused on not dying and laughing, which is my trauma response. Long story short, we survived the point. We made it. After we got out of the roughest part, we recovered a bit. And I looked down and said, dude, we just did that without our life jackets on. And we just laughed like insane whack jobs. You know, it's like sometimes when you make it out of the other side of a bad situation, you do just have to laugh. We didn't die. Can you believe we did that?

L.O.L. We still had four and a half more miles till we hit the portage trail, but after that point, we were wiped. We took our time paddling towards the trail. We were tired, delirious, probably dehydrated, and starving. I packed snacks, so we both took a break from paddling and each had a cliff bar. A fishing boat nearby, we had talked to them right after. after we rounded the point, made their way towards us,

and actually ended up loading us up and our kayaks into their boat to give us a ride back to the Portage Trail. Thank you, Random Man from Wisconsin. I don't even want to get into the portage trail because it was hell. That's what Allie and I call it. We had kayaked over seven hours at this point, and although the trail isn't long, it is one of the most difficult portages on the entire island.

It's less than a mile long, but it was hell. My body just hurts thinking about it. Allie's about half my size and portaging with her was difficult to say the least, but we made it. We hit Tobin Harbor at around 10 p.m., covered in scrapes, bruises and sweat. We probably looked like we'd been out there for at least a week. Once we were out of the water, we returned the paddles and the almost useless life jackets, in our case, shower and rested. The next day, Allie and I visited the Rangers in the Ranger Station and were debating on telling them what we had done. Come to find out, they already knew.

one of the Rangers was off the day before and had kayaked to Merritt Lane Campground and Bushwack to the point. She had watched us crazily going around Blake's point and had gone back and told all of the Rangers, including the law enforcement officer. She didn't tell as in a tattle, but just calling us out for being stupid. We had one week left on the island and constantly got chewed out by the Rangers. We got along well with the Rangers. You're not going to do this again. It's like, we're going to shame you. for weeks. We got along well with the Rangers all season, so we never got in trouble,

just constantly got told how dumb our decision was. But they knew to keep it on the down low because our bosses would have chewed us out and we probably would have not been rehired in the future. We had less than a week left on the island, so the chances of us getting sent home early was not really an option. We finished out the season strong and have great memories of a traumatic experience. Oh yeah. On the boat ride off the island, September 26, 2024, Ile Royal National Park had posted on Instagram how challenging Blake Point is. Suspicious timing to be sure. All of the Rangers we asked about it just smirked and shrugged. It's like, that's crazy. I don't know who did that and what they're on to something now. It is. It is dangerous.

Now, Allie and I definitely understand how dangerous and stupid we were. One, not to tell anyone that we were going around Blake's point. And number two, not wearing our freaking life jackets. We realize if things had gone wrong, we would definitely not be here. You know what they say. Lake Superior never gives up her dead. Life update for me, I just recently, as of February of 2025. Oh yeah, just so you know, also, I pulled a lot of these from like years ago,

anything that's like Ranger themed. So some of these are really old. So a year ago now, I guess. I just moved to the UP with my daughter and started a job at the hospital up here near the headquarters of the National Park. I fell in love with the island as well as the area and needed a change from Arkansas. Sorry for a long story, but I have been waiting to share it for a long time. Keep up the great work and thank y'all for all that you do, Carly. Ready to soundtrack your summer?

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Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. I just have to say whoever, and Cassie and I have had our eyes on this for a while now, but we've noticed a shift with the social media presence of the National Park sites on Instagram. and whoever is running them, it needs a race because they're really funny. And you can tell.

There are ones that are really funny. You can tell when there's like a Gen Z person behind their content and stuff because there's been a noticeable shift. And this, I can almost guarantee somebody was being spicy. Like, we're going to call these people out in an inadvertent way. Honestly, it's so, it's such a tribute. It's so true. Rangers do this all the time.

Like we'll see people doing something really dumb and we'll all just like go back together to the office and just like cackle about it. So just so everyone knows, if you make a fool of yourself in front of a ranger, you know that the rest of them are going to hear about it. It's like we will be making fun of you. That's like part of the fun. That's part of the fun is like exchanging like visitor stories with each other. And that that was part of the like bond that Rangers have with each other and why it was so hard to be fired and like taking. out of that because it was like, no, these are my people. Like, I go to them with all these different things and we trauma bond and we can relate about all these different things. And a lot of people

can relate in general to like that person was dumb. Like, aha. But it's like a certain kinship you have in the Ranger world where we're all in this together and we all know exactly what someone's talking about when they say like what they saw and how ridiculous it was or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. That was definitely an intentional post from Ile Royale 100%. Well, kind of going into what you just mentioned with the terminations and working with so many people, we spoke to you, as we mentioned about a year ago, and we heavily focused on the terminations that were happening at that point. And I feel like with everything else that has been going on in the world, that story has kind of fallen to the wayside a little bit. we'd love to know kind of an update of have these people been hired back. Who is short-staffed? Is everyone short-staffed? Are people back in their roles originally? What is what is kind of

happening there? Yeah. Thanks for asking. I think it's so important to, again, just going back to there's so much going on. This was just another thing to get lost in the sauce. And I really appreciate that y'all are talking about it and making sure that listeners know like this is still affecting people today and it hasn't gone away and it's not going to go away. It's going to keep happening in different capacities. Before I dive into the numbers and exactly where people stand today, I just kind of want to go over the context of then to now from my perspective. Because I'm just going to say, I was the wrong woman to fire. And we love that energy. It's like I am your problem now. Yes, exactly. You have to deal with me now. Congratulations. So on that note, I've done since I got fired from the Forest Service,

and I was a field ranger and worked in fire and recreation and did all sorts of stuff. And that was one of the big things that the chief and the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Department of Interior and all of them, they were saying there weren't any firefighters fired, but that's not true. It just wasn't our main job title, but a lot of folks had their red card or incident qualification card, which means they could fight fire. And do it on a case-by-case basis. So if an incident comes up, you can go on an assignment and be a part of that and help fight fire. Which is really important because not to be a downer here, but we are experiencing the worst, the warmest winter in Western United States history, recorded history.

And that means that this summer is going to be really rough in the terms of wildfire. even though the East Coast had its record cold, which I'm sure you too have experienced where you are in your neck of the woods. But on the west, it's been the opposite. And there's like barely any snow. It's been acting like spring since December. It's been really strange. So just prefacing that before I get into it. But since I was fired, I did over.

I had to count how many things I was in because I had all these reporters and journalists reaching out to me because I became like he said in the intro, like, you said in the intro, kind of a unicorn. People were like, ooh, you have all this experience and you're outspoken. Like, we want to hear from you. So I talked to over 30 people or 30 like interviews locally and internationally. And I've been, I went to DC three times to talk to Congress about saving rangers and advocating for them and protecting public lands. Went to the state of the union, which was wild. I was a guest of my rep. Elon Musk was 20 feet away from me the whole time. It was so strange. Oh, you're a real person. But that's up for debate, depending on who you ask.

I agree. You want to be a robot? I'm so curious. He was definitely twitching. It was a little strange. He was glitching out. He was glitching out. So I went there and I talked to people as well and saying like, please not firing us and rehire us because that was before a reinstatement.

I've been to a bunch of town halls. I've testified for an Oregon state public lands bill twice and taking all this action and collaborating with conservation orgs. and campaigns and just trying to really uplift these issues and to keep them in the light, because that's what we need to keep doing. And I work for the Conservation Lands Foundation, and we protect BLM Lands specifically in friends groups that help them. So again, just kind of find people that are more underrepresented and just giving them that platform to be seen is so important.

So then I started my podcast in July, and it's focused on public lands, rangers, and also finding joy and having hope because again we don't want to just be like in this sad wamp wamp situation and feel like we can't do anything we have no power because it's just not true we just have to get creative and work together so on that note looking at today and the state of you know the public lands federal workforce it's not great and i think july last year we don't have an updated number i looked i asked i don't know because there's Definitely more than this, but they've about a quarter, so 25% of National Park Service staff was gone, fired, let go, left, whatever. So that's the number that we had from July. It's definitely a lot more than that now.

And seasonals, hopefully we get people, you know, taking the seasonal jobs, but a lot of people are really skeptical of the federal government right now for good reason. They're like, I don't know if that's safe to take a job with them. You know, what if I just get fired or it last minute, is canceled or, you know, there's that worry. And then I also think about, you know, we're, millennials, we're in our 30s. And I think about people who are younger who are just coming out of high school or in their 20s or even older that are just looking for a career change. If people are going to look at what's happening to the federal workforce and think, I don't really want to make that my trajectory. Because now something that was so predictable in a way and reliable is now seen as very, very shaky and uncertain. And people generally like to have

certainty when it comes to a career goal. Not everyone. It's a livelihood on the line here. Exactly. So that's really important. And I just think that's not talked about enough is that this is affecting younger generations who are going to be coming into this conservation world and caring about nature and parks and wildlife and water and air and all those things. So that's just putting that there. and Resistance Rangers actually did a poll for National Park Service employees who are currently still there. So this doesn't include, to my knowledge, BLM, Forest Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, etc. So focusing just on Park Service, but they asked them how they currently feel about their future career in the Park Service. And 69.1% more than half said that they are uncertain and insecure.

And that makes me really sad, especially as somebody who comes from a Ranger background, I've worked in a national park. I've worked with the Forest Service. And, you know, like, we're going back to, like, the trail tale and talking about having, like, rapport amongst your rangers and, like, laughing together and, you know, making lemonade out of lemons that are handed to you. And then to feel like now you're uncertain

and you don't know what's happening and you feel scared, it's a complete 180 from that amazing culture that's cultivated within the park service and other agencies that take care of our public lands. And then 17.2% said angry, resentful, 10.3% said indifferent and 3.4% said sad. So yeah. Not, not, not in that survey. I think, oh, they're indifferent was, I think just like, it's fine. Whatever. Yeah, there wasn't like, I don't think there was an option for like happy or good. I think it was just not that I know of. I didn't see it listed there. I could be wrong though. So go check out that poll. It's on their Instagram. But the other thing is going back to probation. employees, so employees that were new in their permanent role that were part of that mass firing that I got caught in the crosshairs of, a lot of people did take reinstatement, but then since that happened, because that was in March last year, there was this deferred

resignation program, and then Vera, which is early retirement, and then a lot of people have just left because they were, you know, scared or found another job or whatever the means are, whatever the reasons are. So again, it's like we have so many people that have like a mass exodus of employees, and so we don't know the actual number. But a lot of people are job searching. I mean, I have friends, colleagues that work in the Forest Service who have messaged and they're like, I'm looking for new jobs. Like, I don't feel good here.

Like, I need to find something else. So a lot of people are navigating into the conservation nonprofit in that world, including myself. That's what I did. And it's really interesting. It's so different. And but we all have common values. And I really appreciate the organizations that have gone out of their way to say,

we love our park rangers and we want to support them. And my organization has said that, which I really appreciated because I was a little nervous. I was like, I know there's always been like some tension between the feds and nonprofits, but really it's more humanized than people think. I think a lot of people understand that what happened was wrong and we need rangers to protect these beautiful parks and places. So that's kind of not the best answer because I wish I had, you know, more information and better news. but that's honestly kind of the state of things right now.

Well, it's good to hear from someone who is in this world to know, especially for things that are harder to look up, to hear from someone with real experience and know people who are directly involved. Because also I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that they have also decided to stop releasing the number of people who are visiting national parks, which I think directly coincides with the need for employment. because if you are hiding how many people are there, you really can pretend that you have enough staff when in reality that's probably not going to be true.

Yeah, exactly. There's been a lot of weird changes with parks especially too, like with the fees going up for international visitors, which isn't like a totally crazy thing that's that's pretty common in other countries. But there's, you know, talks about like accessibility issues and it's also just another thing that Rangers have to deal with, like this new thing to explain to people and to get yelled out for. So that's another thing to just, because they're not given the support that they need to enact these new rules and stuff.

Like they're just told, just do it. Yeah, exactly. And they're like, cool, I'll just get yelled out all day. Even more. Awesome. So that's, yeah, I feel for them. Well, we'll switch gears a little bit from the doom and gloom of this. and we'll switch into another trail tales.

This one is titled, from Park Ranger to Dog Mom. Hi, Daniel and Cassie. I'm a long-time listener, first-time trail-tale submitter, and I just want to say I've learned so much for me both, and truly I'm so thankful for everything you do. Your podcast has been part of more road trips,

work commutes, and quiet evenings than I can count. So it feels fitting that this story, the one about losing my park job, losing my spark, and finding it again in the form of a tiny dashhound starts. year. And it begins with leaving a seasonal park job I thought I'd return to. So I guess not leaving the doom and gloom actually coincides directly with what we're talking about, but sounds like there's a light at the end. Back at the beginning of 2022, I applied for a seasonal interpretive ranger

position with the state parks from where I'm from. And in the two years, I held the position I worked at five different parks, met countless friends, and gained the first two additions to my small family. My two cats helped me through every park-related move and gave me someone to come home to every night and share my park stories with. Yes, I talked to my pets. Who doesn't? But in the fall of 2024, I packed up my stuff and my boys and moved back home for the off season. There's a strange kind of heartbreak that comes with leaving a seasonal park job. When the last day came, it didn't feel real.

I packed up my ranger hat, folded the uniform that still smelled like sunscreen and campfire smoke, and told myself it wasn't goodbye. just see you next season. I drove away from the park with dirt on my boots and that bittersweet ache that only people who work in wild places understand. Then rehire season came, but when the phone rang, it wasn't what I expected. They weren't hiring me back. Just like that, the trails I used to patrol felt farther away. The sunrise hikes, the late night campground checks, the quiet pride of answering visitor questions, gone. I didn't just lose a job. I lost routine, identity. belonging. For a while, I stopped going outside the way I used to. Nature felt like something I used to be

good at, something I used to belong to. I'd scroll past photos of the park and feel disconnected, like I'd been uninvited from a party I helped set up. It was the first time the woods didn't feel like home. Then one afternoon, I stopped by my dad's work, a local sign shop. One of his coworkers had brought in a small dashound puppy they had found. The guy that followed him didn't know what to do with him, so they brought him into the shop hoping someone could help. He looked completely out of place among the rolls of vinyl and metal frames. I don't know exactly when the decision happened. Maybe it was when he wobbled across the concrete floor and climbed into my lap like he already chosen me. Maybe it was the way he followed me around the shop, his little nails clicking behind me like he

was afraid I'd disappear. But I took him home. And suddenly, I had someone who needed walks. At first, they were short, just around the block. His little legs worked twice as hard as any other dogs, but he marched forward like he had somewhere important to be. Then we ventured to a local trail. He'd stop and sniff every leaf, every rock, every stick like it was a discovery. He didn't know I'd been rejected. He didn't care that I wasn't park staff anymore. To him, I was the adventure. Slowly, without realizing it, I started looking forward to going outside again, not because it was my job, not because I needed to prove anything, but because his whole body wiggled when I grabbed the leash. Somewhere along the way, I found this podcast again. Listening to stories about parks and

wild places didn't sting anymore. It felt grounding. Familiar. I'd play episodes while driving to trailheads. My little dashhound stretched across the passenger seat, nose lifted to the cracked window, ears fluttering in the wind. The wild didn't feel closed off to me anymore. It felt open. so open in fact that I did something I'd never done before. I planned a solo trip, just me and my new best friend. Packing felt different this time, not like I was preparing for work, not like I was trying to earn my place, just simple excitement. I loaded the car, flipped on his harness, which looked slightly ridiculous on his long

body, and we headed out. It was a short trip, but it was exactly what we needed. We hiked, then relaxed at camp. The first night in the tent, he was on high alert, every night. Every sound was suspicious, but by morning he was buried deep into my sleeping bag like he'd been camping his whole life. And for the first time since I left the park, I didn't feel like something had been taken from me. I felt like something had been given back. Losing the job hurt, not getting higher back stung deeper than I expected, but it forced me to find a new reason to love the outdoors,

one that wasn't tied to a title or a season. I didn't go back to nature because it chose me. I went back because a small little dashhound puppy needed a walk. And somewhere between the sign shop and the trailhead, I realized something. The wild was never my workplace. It was always my home. So while I didn't get hired back, and for a while I felt like I'd lost my place in the world I love most, I realized now I didn't actually lose nature.

I just needed a new way back to it. Thank you both for reminding people like me why these wild places matter. and for unknowingly being a part of the journey that led me back to them. And remember to enjoy the view and let your four-legged family watch your back. I feel like I'm actually getting emotional from this one. I know. That happens to us a lot. It really, mainly me.

Because I cry a lot. It was beautiful. It was. And of course, something that you can relate to on a level that we cannot. So that's understandable. The specifics of it, absolutely. I think there's the theme, like the line, he didn't know I'd been rejected. Like, yeah, the animals are so amazing. And I know, like, when you're going through grief, sometimes it's overwhelming to have people, you know, coming at you all the time and saying, like, different things. In my case, I had negative and positive because I didn't lose a loved one. I lost my job and that was political. But for people that have lost a loved one, you know, it's like, after a while, you just start to, it's overwhelming to be around so many different voices being like, I'm here for you. I can help you. Let's talk. So nice to have your animal to just be like,

we're not going to talk. And I'm taking care of you. So this is distracting me. And it's giving me an outlet to pour love into something because that needs to happen right now. So love, love our animals. It gives you a purpose too. You know, I feel like whether it's a loss of a loved one or a coveted, you know, piece of your life, you know, like your job that isn't just a job. It's something that you really care about. And it's one of those things that just like really makes your life a lot fuller. I think everyone who works as a ranger or in public lands as some in some form or capacity, you know, it is more than just a salary or a position. It's more than just a paycheck. And so when that loss comes,

it's more than just, oh, what am I going to do for my, you know, for money? It's like my whole world has shifted. And I think that you, you know, in particular, like you said, you picked the wrong one because now I'm going to speak up and you have and all these different speaking engagements and things that you outlined before. But you really alchemized what happened to you into something that you work on all the time now and that's your show, your podcast, Rangers of the Lost Park. So can you tell us, tell us all about it, please? Because last time we spoke, I don't know if like it had taken off to what it is now. Oh, no. Yeah. I hadn't started until July. So yeah. Thank you. First of all, Cassie and Danielle, like this is such an honor to be on your show and to be, like, first of all,

This is so cool. This is like bandgirl. I said that last time too and I still mean it. But also just to have the opportunity to talk about this on such a public platform is I feel really humbled and I feel really privileged that I get to do this because not everybody does. Some people are not comfortable being in the spotlight. Some people, you know, they have other barriers that I don't, you know, socially, culturally. and they're not as comfortable having so many eyes on them or being scrutinized so intensely. And that was a big motivation for me to want to speak out even more because it again, like goes back to for me, I had a really hard upbringing and I never really had community. I never had people to turn to.

I never had anything like that. I was always like taking care of myself, read a lot of books and just went out to nature when I could and that was how I coped. And then so I know it feels like to to feel small and to feel like you can't make a difference or like people aren't advocating for you. And I refuse to let other people feel that way if I can help it. So that was a big reason that I wanted to do something like this was there's so much misinformation and disinformation about what happened last year to Rangers and continues to happen. Partly because it's so complex and it's weird and hard to understand. And that's like totally valid.

And then the other part is just there are people out there who are trying to create a new narrative for it and not in not with good intent. So to combat both of those things, I was like, oh, I want to start a podcast and talk about Rangers. And, you know, at first I was like, do I, you know, there's so many different creative outlets now. We were in 2026 and, you know, there's so much social media. And there's a ton of podcasts and people on YouTube. And there's just so many things you could choose from and avenues to go. And I decided on podcast, one, because I love podcasts. I've been listening to MPAD since 2022.

Love you guys' episodes. They're amazing. And I've been a follower forever. You've been my number one on Spotify for like three years in a row. Thank you so much. Sorry, not to make you blush, but it's true. Tooth and Claw is up there too. I'm like, God, I want to be their friends so bad.

We can get you an end. There we go. Yeah, there's two of you and three of them. So you need one more. I'm happy to do. Yeah. But no, they make me. laugh so much. And it's so funny, just sidebar, Wes and Jeff is like me and my sister.

My sister is Jeff. Yeah. We've done some episodes. I'm going to say you've got to be a Wes. Like there's no way that you're Jeff. Yeah. Sorry, Jeff. No, I love that Sarah's like Jeff. It's so funny. So she's been on my, my podcast a couple times and it's just so fun because she's so unhinged and hilarious. But yeah, so I started with the idea of shining light on Rangers and the issues happen. to our public lands. And my co-host at the time was also a fire, is also a fired fed. And we met at the state of the union. And so we wanted to strive to, you know, make sense of things happening, like I said, and to give it a story as well, because most people learn better from stories

than they do facts and figures. And that's just a fact. That's why podcasts like NPAD and tooth and claw and so many others have so many fans because you're so good at telling a story and it's captivating and people, people love that. They need it. They want it. And so I wanted to be able to interpret things in a way that was in a story so that it wasn't so much like, here's all the facts, this sucks. Let's do something, I guess, you know, the end is like, no, I want to talk about different people that are in the community doing amazing things and love nature and hear from their side and hear what they have to say about things and have like a diverse array of guests from, you know, people who are in communities of color to people who are in the LGBTQ plus community and people

who are in politics and people who are artists. And there's like there's so many different amazing people to talk to and a lot of Rangers too have had Rangers on, which has been really nice and super fun. So the crown jewel guest that we had on, which I, you know, sorry for the name drop here, but I'm really proud of it is Ken Burns. And he's a famous documentary filmmaker. He had an incredible documentary called The National Parks America's Best Idea. And so I wanted to talk to him about that. And he was so nice and funny. And I took a risk and said, I wish you were my grandpa.

And thank God he laughed. It would have been really awkward. Good for you. Thank you. Got to be bold, you know. You do. Yeah. And we also had Chuck Sams, who was the first Indigenous National Park Service director and very,

very beloved in the Park Ranger community. just an amazing human. Also in Oregonian, he lives here. So I get to see him around sometimes, which is cool. But yeah, so it's just been so fun, like having all these awesome folks on. And since my co-host stepped down because they just didn't have capacity to be a part of it anymore. And now I'm kind of shifting from the tagline before was a podcast for those who love Rangers and Public Lands to now it's a podcast for those who need joy in a world of bad news. It's still Public Lands and Ranger themed.

but I really want to focus on like, okay, here's what's going on. But like, how can we find hope and how can we feel joy through it all? Because that's what's going to get us through. If we're always really down and really upset and angry and we don't have an outlet for action, it's going to create a really, just really bad feelings. You're going to be depressed. You're going to be unhappy and hopeless. And I just, again, goes back to I don't want people to feel that way,

I know what that feels like and there's something we can do about it and it's through community, whether it's just listening to my podcast and hearing two people or three people talk about something that you want to know about. And then they're laughing together about other things and showing like you can care about issues and laugh about stupid shit. You can have both truths at once. So that's the, that's my overall arch for my podcast. And it's just been so fun.

I will say it is hard work, ladies. I am so impressed by you. You know, it is a, it is a journey. That is for sure. I mean, I do 100% outreach, writing, planning, social media, editing, interviewing, everything. And it's like, it's a full-time job while I'm also working a full-time job. So it's, it don't have weekends. What's a weekend?

But that's okay because it's good work and I enjoy doing it. Yeah, you wear a lot of hats when it comes to podcasting. It's true. Yeah. And I think, honestly, over the last few years, I think that the public or people who are the public, listen to me. Oh, my God. Talking like a ranger. People who don't podcast. Who are you? I don't know. But the people, people who are not in the podcasting world or don't. The civilians. Those other people. They don't. I think a lot of people are waking up to just because podcasting is so much bigger now. And it's kind of just part of. of entertainment as a whole. Whereas before, and I'm not even, me and Cassie joined like at the tail end of like when podcasting really started vamping up. But especially in the beginning,

you know, people, I remember being at work and being like, I really, I got, I have to go because I have all of this to do for the podcast, you know, at night. And people were just like, okay, it's not that. It's a podcast. Like, why, you just sit there and talk? Like, girl, I'm I wish. I wish. And it is a lot of work and it is a labor of love. But when you find something that you're really passionate about and you think is important and you know is important, it doesn't feel like work all the time, which is great. Because if it did, we'd all be in trouble. You know, this is stuff that like there's times that it's like, oh my God, I have this, this and this. My list is so long. But at the end of the day, you know it's because it's stuff that you want to

have out in the world. And people are obviously interested in and there's a need for it. And like you said, it's not all just doom and gloom. You can make it more exciting. And you got to humanize this stuff. You know, like a lot of this information that we talk about, that you talk about, it can get overwhelmingly depressing. Yeah. I think it's also. really cool and you guys do this which I absolutely love is that and going back to like podcasting and like it's so popular now like before and even now still it's true that it's very male dominated and especially white male dominated and there is a demographic for that absolutely but we need to have I like to say I want my show to look like America I want it to look diverse and I want it to

really actually shine who lives in this country it's not just white men there's a lot of them But there's a lot of other people as well who are different ethnicity, different gender, different identity, whatever it is. And I just also I love to I love women. I just love women. I want more women. Do you guys listen to Good Hang by Amy Polar? Yes. I do all that. I was just listening to her last night. Yeah. I want to be her, but like environmental version. And it's funny because I'm not, I mean, I've seen Parks and Rec, but only here and there. I would never say I was a Parks and Rick fan or like a lot of the people who listened to her were fans of her work before. I just came over as somebody who's like, oh, this is like the most popular podcast now all of a sudden and she has some cool people on that I know from, you know, movies or television. Let's see what this is about. And now I find myself listening to her all the time.

Even if I don't know who her guest is, I just like her vibe and the vibe of the show. Yeah. Same. And I want to without, you know, she's her. own person. I'm my own person. I'm not like, I want to be Amy Poehler. But she is really good at making her guest feel comfortable. She's really good. And you guys are too, which I love. And having that skill, it's it's not something you just can learn into. Like you have to be a people person. You have to be able to have empathy and to be able to listen and relate to people. And it just, it just not everybody has

it. And that's okay. But the people that do, I love hearing from them. And so if I can in any way embody that. I will be so proud of myself. Well, where can everyone find you on all of the things that you are hard at work doing? The socials and the podcast and all of that. Tell everyone what you've been up to. Do you have any big like plans or topics or episodes coming up that you want to share? Yeah. Thank you for asking. So first and foremost, the podcast is anywhere where podcasts are. you can find them but spotify and apple podcasts are my two main ones that i will advertise about and then it's called rangers of the lost park i always thought it's funny when we when i emailed you to collab it's like uh park park park dark what are we going to call this um but yeah uh on

on instagram of the lost park indiana jones reference and you can find me on there i do have a patreon you can be a ranger friend is what you're called when you join the community it's five bucks a month. I'm still up and coming with it. So be patient. I'm still new. But I really hope to have one day a really awesome community on there. And in the meantime, at least you just be helping support somebody who has a dream and wants to make the world a better place and spark joy and talk about the outdoors. So I also have, I just want to mention, I have a new website and I have stickers that are for sale and I have a you want to submit a guest or if you yourself or you know someone that you want to hear from let me know I also have like a I call it Ranger tea form which is

what we call the stories on my podcast is spill the tea spill the Ranger tea and then listener questions also if people have a question for me so and I plan on collaborating with more local artists in the future which is really important to me especially in the world of AI slop absolutely no way. I want local artists 100%. Oh my God. Yeah. I know you guys feel that too, especially in the creator world. It's a problem. So, but yeah, I also just wanted to say that I have some really awesome folks lined up. I won't say any names because I don't want to spoil it, but just people that work in, you know, diversifying the outdoors and inclusivity and accessibility. I have some people who are professors of plant biology and I have other.

Rangers that are going to be coming on that work in paleontology. And so there's a lot of really cool folks that are on the docket and I'm really excited. But before we go, I actually had a fun segment for you guys, if that's the right time to do this. Yes. I love fun. Yay. Okay. So what I do with all my guests is, so what my, the structure of the podcast loosely is just, you know, we talk about who the person is, the relevant things that are happening within nature that have to do with their work or who they are. And so we have a really fun, beautiful conversation about that. And then we move into Ranger Tea, which is share an outdoor story of your choice. You have something crazy, weird, almost like their own trail tale. And then at the end, I do Ranger rankings, which is similar to like two

thin claw categories is a good way to compare it for listeners to understand that. But I'll just give you some little fun questions here. And what I'll do is I'll ask the question. And then Cassie Danielle, you'll answer. And then I'll give my answer. And then we'll go on to the next one. and tangents are welcome. There's no rules. I like no rules. I'm ready. Dangerous. Yes, very. Okay, cool. So the first one is, and I'm sure you've been asked this before,

but I love asking people this because I just, it's so funny, like all the different answers, but what is the dumbest luxury item you've ever backpacked or camped with? Oh, I have that one right off the bat. I don't know if I do, but what? I feel, oh, I thought you were going to say you knew what my. Mine was. I don't think it's dumb, but it is luxury. If I am camping, I would like to have my skincare routine. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I have a little electronic guasha with red light that you'll catch me in the middle of the woods, gwashing my face with my

red light therapy. And it has blue light and green light for all the other stuff. And that is my luxury item that I won't have a shower, but I will have my red light therapy guasha with me. Yeah. Hers is really good. That's amazing. I want to see that in action, like in the tent. We're like, what's this red light coming from her tent? And it vibrates, too.

And it'll chime. Yeah. It'll chime. When it's done the first. Amazing. And that's my alarm in the morning usually is Cassie's guasha. Like, oh, it's time to get up. Yeah.

I don't know if I can't. You're with me all the time, Cassie, when I do this. I don't know. It's not luxury, but you, with your neck, you like to bring a good pillow. Yeah, that's true. Which is like more luxury than most when camping. That's true. I've gotten to a point that my, I've always kind of had like a neck and kind of like

upper back type of situation going on where I just. just like kind of always in pain with that. But no biggie. But definitely in the last like, I don't know, five, six years, it's gotten really bad. So when I go camping, I will use a camping pillow, but I hate it. Like, I will literally bring a full-sized special neck pillow when I'm camping because otherwise I'm wrecked. I can relate, actually.

Yeah. I hate the camp pillows. but I don't want nothing, so I bring one, but I much prefer my big comfy pillow. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not boozy or anything. It's because my body is screaming at me. But yeah, I think that's – and, I mean, both Cassie and I are always, like, we bring

all of our skincare stuff. Yeah. That's so great. Our 10-step routines are happening. Honestly, I respect that because, like, I feel like I break out the most after a backpacking trip because I'm just dirty. Yes. Yeah.

Bring your skincare with you. It's worth it. In Alaska, I remember going up, there was a spiket, you know, that was like, you know, it was like on the side of the building. With cold water, not. The coldest water you've ever used. Oh, my God. So it's like we're dirty.

We hadn't had a shower in days. You know, we're all huddled around this one little spiket because it's for the whole campground. It's like 40 degrees out. also. It's raining. I'm getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. I'll be damned if I don't have my 10-step routine going. So yeah, that's a little luxurious, I think. I love that. That's amazing. What's yours? I think my fiance is the dumbest luxury item I've ever brought. But, um, Ouch. So I actually, I was trying to deliver that. I'm not a stand-up comedian, but I asked him,

yesterday. I was like, trying to think like, what is a dumb luxury out of my bra? And he said himself. So he roasted himself and then I used it. Okay. Okay. And then he said you approved. That's funny. And then he said, you always make me carry around your stupid fucking chairs. I was like, yeah.

It is nice of a chair. Yeah. Yeah. I love my fiance. He's, he's not dumb. But I thought that was a good answer. Because he came up with it. Okay. The next one is. favorite national monument. We always talk about parks, but what's a monument that you guys really like? Mine is Mount St. Helens is my favorite national monument. It's a really good one. It's a really good one. I really enjoyed visiting Devil's Tower National Monument. I love that. I thought that was.

It was so cool. And then all the indigenous nods that are throughout the whole park and you see their prayer flags and everything there, I thought was really cool. And then the climbers. who are there as well and I just learned a lot when I was there. And I didn't know when I went to Devil's Tower that there is nothing else around. Like it's truly incredible because the landscape is almost flat, like maybe smallish rolling hills. And then Devil's Tower is just there. And it's like, how? Why? What are you doing here? And it's just really incredible to, see it for the first time. I agree. I think those are both great answers. I love, Devil's Tower was so unique too. It was just like, I've never seen anything else like this. Yes. Like what? And I told a story on the podcast a really long time ago about a guy who parachuted to the top of it and then was just, and this was before climbers really had honed in on how to climb up it and they had to get some people from New Hampshire to like get him down who were

climbers and it was like a whole thing and I learned a lot about the top of it which was fun so awesome the good one I will say for mine is dinosaur which is in Utah and Colorado and I just I'd never been there before I did a road trip in September and I was like this place is so cool I've never heard of it and I've always heard of you know the big five in Utah and it's like this place is so rad there was petroglyphs and a river and canyons and it was so cool so Highly in the dinosaurs dinosaurs The most important part

I know I loved reading the one star reviews From that monument People were like there wasn't a T-Rex Not right The only dinosaurs walking around The only one that counts Yeah Awesome okay the next one

We have two left So what is the most unhinged book That you've read recently Oh I know you're both big readers And so am I Hold on. Unhinged in the weirdest fucking book I've ever read. We read for Book Club. Yeah, we're sorry, everyone. Not a great advertisement for us.

Sorry. What was it? Smother moss. I don't know that one. It was unhinged. It was weird. Sorry to the author who is probably not listening to this. But just in case, yeah, we, so our book club every month, we have a pull. poll. So we usually pick five books that our members have highly recommended or want to read. And we'll pull five that are, you know, highly requested. And then the group will vote on it. So it's not like we hand selected this. So we didn't do this to everybody. Everyone did it to us. We're the victims in this. And some people do love the book. I mean, it has really great reviews. So. But we felt it was unhinged. And the author has gone on record saying like it's not meant to make sense because there's been a lot of people like what happened in this book. I don't understand there's so many unanswered questions and things like that. And she's addressed it because it's been so like what the hell is happening in this in this novel. So there's that. But and it hasn't been recently, but it's the first one that came to mind. And Tenders, the flesh was pretty unhinged as far as.

being strange because it was about factory farming people for consumption. Oh, I've heard of that one. Yeah, I heard it's pretty bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess those are my answers. Okay. My answer and the most unhinged one that I've read recently would be gracier. And in a good way, I really liked this book a lot. but it essentially follows this society that when girls turn 16, they have a grace year where they're sent out to the woods. And they are put all together and they have to survive out here alone among the elements and kind of figure it out. And the reason that they're sent this way is because they're thought when they go through puberty and get their periods and stuff that basically. they become crazy or they need this year to survive and and people die, people turn against each other. And it's really like kind of, it's like if Handmaid's Tale merged with, God what a,

Lord of the Flies. Oh. Or Lord of the Flies, yeah. It has a very, it's a very apocalyptic. It was just, it was unhinged. And the fact that she, this author, even thought of this concept because it feels almost like it could be real, which is like the fucked out part of it.

And yeah. Disconcerting. For some hinge for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing. Mine is lights out. I read it recently and I was like, what is this book? Wait, I've seen that one, but I've never read it.

It's, uh, I know like, how do we explain this? How do I? Did I read this? I don't know if I read this. No. It's like she's a nurse and he like wears a mask on social media and they like get in a like a relationship kind of but she doesn't know who he is and it's like really strange. A lot of sex. Okay.

All right. Wait, hold on. I totally change my answers. Screw smother moss and tenders the flesh. The haunting of Adeline. Oh my God. Yeah. Your answer just unlocked this.

I read this when we were in Hawaii at the end of last year. And I'm like, what the fuck am I reading? Like, it went beyond, I don't even know what it was. It was like, I told Cassie, because she's always like checking in like, oh, how's your book? Because she reads obviously hers while we're together. And I'm like, you would absolutely hate this book. Do you won't ever crack this book open? I was going to ask if Cassie's read it.

It's like, it's like. You've read it. So have you read it? It's, yeah, it's not. I like don't even know how to put it in the words. It's not safe for like. anyone. Correct. It's not safe for anybody. Did you read the sequel? No, I think I'm bad. Me neither. I was like, no, I'm good. Well, I wanted to read it because I heard it was so like messed up and like dark and

really intense. And I was just like, I just want to see why everyone's talking about it. And I was just reading it like, oh my God. Okay, I read it because everyone recommended it to me on my Instagram. Like people are like, you have to read this because I was like I want something that has like more than just like he he romance. Yeah. Like, oh girl. Okay. They're like, let's go to the other side of the spectrum. I'm like shit.

You guys are sick. There's like probably some listeners right now that are like, I love that book. I'm a freak and that's okay. I secretly loved it. So it's okay. I'm just saying it was unhinged. Yeah, it was very unhinged. Yeah.

Okay. The last one here is what is the place that you visited that you think. think should be or wish was a national park. Like you're like, how is this place not a part? Just a really good question. That is a really good question. And I can go first if you want to think. Yes, please. I have an answer. So for me, I live in Oregon and on the very east side of the state, there's this incredible area called the Hawaii. And it's this canyon and there's a river, the Waahi River. And then there's Leslie Gulch is what it's called. And it honestly looks like something out of Avatar. Like it's so cool. There's these rock monoliths. The river is incredible. There's hot springs.

There's campgrounds. There's so much hiking. And it's so unique. So much wildlife. There's greater sage grouse that are there, which are endangered. And like, it's just, I've never been to a place that I was like, how is this not more protected? Because it's under BLM and that's actually, it was a campaign not super long ago trying to get the Hawaii, I think, into a national monument or to be protected in some better way. Because right now there's a lot of like OHV problems and grazing and cows that will get into areas that they shouldn't be. And I mean, there's just a whole lot of things because it's pretty wild out there. But it's so incredible. If you've never been, go to the Hawaii. It's incredible. Beautiful. I've never even heard of it before. Neither have. It's out there. The Oregon Desert Trail goes up through it, I believe, and I've never hiked that one. It's on my list, as you guys say.

Yes. Yes. I guess that thinking about it, a place that I am a little bit surprised is not a national park is actually up here. I think the Adirondacks, and I know, I don't know specific. I know there are some national park ties with some of the stuff, but it's not. and National Park. And that kind of surprises me a bit just because of the mountains that are there, the recreation that's there,

and also just the different species of plants and wildlife that are there. I'm a little surprised that that doesn't have more of a protection status on it. Yeah. I feel like a lot of places on the East Coast deserve some more love and protection. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's always, you know, of course we have Acadia in Maine. But I think a lot of people are surprised that there's not more national parks in this general area in New England.

And we're talking, of course, you know, there's different park units around here. Yeah, like Cape Cod National Seashore and like different things like that. But like a minute man national park. Yeah, there's a, God, you always forget. You always forget. It's so do I. It's Marshall J. Billings, a national park in Vermont that they have. and it preserves basically a farming operation.

It was the beginnings of some of the first sustainable farming in the country and the Rockefellers owned it. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So that's a national park that's here. But it's not like a, it's a really small unit. So it's not a big, big park. Gotcha. Well, that's all my questions.

Oh, wait. No, Danielle, you got to answer. I'm so sorry. That's okay. I'm like, I don't know. She thought she got out of it. I'm like, oh, yeah, thank you so much for being here. See ya. I think my reaction as far as a place that I'm surprised isn't is hard to say because I really don't know off the top of my head.

But as far as places I wish had more protections, I think because I've driven across the country a lot, I've gone through a lot of the, you know, quote unquote flyover states area. is that, you know, a lot of people just kind of nap through on their way to getting to the iconic West or the West Coast or vice versa out into the East Coast. And I will say that a lot of my favorite memories of because I've camped or car camped along the way, a lot of those trips, some of my best memories are picking places, you know, campgrounds or BLM land or whatever it is to spend a night. and just being out in the prairie and hearing the coyotes and seeing all the birds. And I just really think that a lot of that landscape is up for grabs for agricultural purposes

or development purposes. And it makes me sad because going back to our earlier conversation of people really speaking up for iconic places and it's so easy to get on board with campaigns like that because it's like who wouldn't want to save Yosemite Valley or the Grand Canyon or whatever it is, you know, these iconic places. But there are places that don't have these huge landmarks that are attracting people but are so special to experience and deserve protection too. And I think that I would like to see more of that, whether it's national grassland protections. We've had some fun times outside of Badlands National Park in the grasslands.

out there that are memorable and I just they have the best sunsets and I just I really like the prairie and I hope that people pay attention to it and it gets some protection. That's a great answer. Both of you. That's awesome. Well, that's that's all my questions. I do want to just clarify that I feel like my joke flopped about my fiancee. I really do love him. He's amazing. We believe you. We forgot. We believe you. It was like, man, that did not go as I. I am not a stand-up comedian. You never know who's laughing, okay?

I hope listeners laugh. We don't think he's dumb. Jesse's very smart. Jesse, we understand. We don't think that you're dumb or non-essential or whatever. You appreciate that, I'm sure. You are a luxury item. Yes, not dumb.

Well, thank you so much, Liz, for joining us and sharing all of your knowledge. and passion with us and of course spreading the word about your podcast and you know we've gotten to know you over the last year so and you're just so well spoken number one and knowledgeable and of course have a heart for these things so it's really you know you keep saying it's great to be with us but we feel the same with you and thank you for reaching out and staying connected with us and continuing to do the work that you do and we hope to see you again soon Thank you both so much. I'm so appreciative. And yeah, it was so fun to hang out with you. So everyone, you know where to find Liz at her podcast, Rangers of the Lost Park. And we will see all of you guys next time. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

But watch you're back. Bye, guys. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learn something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more and people, PAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark. For more stories just like this one with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with

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