National Park After Dark - Unlikely Survivors: White Sands National Park

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

For generations, wild horses have lived within the fences of White Sands Missile Range, surviving an atomic bomb and other military testing. When the nation finally takes notice of the unlivable conditions they have been struggling in, an experienced veterinarian is brought in to lead their rescue mission.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Storyworth: Use our link and get $10 off your first purchaseZocdoc: Use our link to download the Zocdoc app for free.BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In the early hours of July 16, 1945, families sleeping soundly in their beds were jolted awake when a force so strong hit their house that it smashed all of their windows. A forest ranger 200 miles away from white sands looked up to see a flash of fire, followed by an explosion that filled the air with black smoke. A U.S. Navy pilot flying at 10,000 feet near Albuquerque, New Mexico, squinted his eyes from the cockpit as he witnessed what looked like the sun but was rising from the south. Onlookers watched as a mushroom cloud filled with vivid colors of vicarious. violet, orange, and red slowly rise off the earth before exploding and rising 38,000 feet above the ground. When the dust settled, it dropped radioactive debris farther than the eye could see. Ground Zero was White Sands Missile Range.

The white sands of the desert surrounding the Blassohn were melted by 9,000 degree temperatures into a half-mile-long eight-foot crater of green substance. The blast decimated everything in its path. Unbeknownst to civilians, the military had just successfully set off the first ever atomic bomb. A weapon of mass destruction built to destroy everything it touched, but it didn't destroy everything. Not here at Ground Zero. White Sands has been the home of some unlikely survivors for many years. It wasn't the first attack the wild Mustangs of White Sands Missile Range had ever encountered, and it certainly wasn't the last.

These horses that carry generations of American history and have served as a symbol of freedom and resilience, have survived atomic bombs, missiles, chemical warfare, and top secret weapons testings for decades, adapting to the most desolate and unlivable conditions there are. But they were struggling. And when the nation finally took notice, some incredible people stepped forward to help. Welcome to National Park After Dark. People are going to be losing their minds because we have had a New Mexico uprising. People in New Mexico are like, please come here and do a story.

So you're making a lot of people happy right now. Well, for a good reason, I mean, New Mexico is a really cool place. And White Sands is also very interesting. I'm excited that we're finally here. And it's a place you've been, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah, briefly. I went there briefly. I saw sunset over White Sands in White Sands National Park.

And it's beautiful. I mean, it was the pink skies, like pink and blue, looking over the white sand. That's all pink and blue and beautiful. It was awesome. I really, I really liked being there. Well, I'm excited because I knew you were reading a book for this one. I should do. So are we in for it today?

Like how long? Like what's happening? Like everyone sit down, relax, because we're going to be here for a while. I did read a book for this one and I feel like whenever we read a book, our episodes are really long. But they're also, they're really detailed, which is exciting as well. Nice. All right. Well, I'm ready to get into it because it seems like there's a lot going on in this and I don't really know exactly what direction we're going in.

So tell us all about it. Yeah. So I guess before we get started, this episode is about wild horses and we're going to be talking about wild horse roundups, which I know is a very controversial subject because there's a lot of reasons behind them. And I will say it's researching it and looking into it. It feels very reminiscent of your wolf episode because you have, of course, animal rights activists that are in here. You also have farmers that are in here where horses are invading certain areas or they feel like. like they're invading certain areas. There are nuisances to them or they're taking up landscapes that could be used for farm and for profit. But then you have animal rights activists who want these wild horses out here. And while, I mean, if you think about wild horses, I guess the first thing you think of is kind of the American symbol for freedom and for strength and resilience. And have you seen wild horses before? No, not in the wild. Really? Yeah, I've seen horses. So regular horses.

domesticated horses. I've seen a lot of, but I'm trying to think. Have you been to Assetig before? No. And that's my first thought of like when someone says wild horses, that's the first location I think of, even though they are also a symbol of like the wild wild west and the American West. But I really don't think I've ever seen a herd of wild horses before. Because even traveling through the western states like that and like visiting Ian, his mom lives in New Mexico and all that, like any horses that I've seen, I know that they're just part of a ranch. You know what I mean? There's a fence around them somewhere that you see.

Yeah. I saw them when we were in Theodore Roosevelt National Park. And I've been to, or I was there. I guess you weren't there. Yeah, no. They have a herd there. There's also, I haven't seen them, but I remember when I was in Park City, I don't remember the photographer's name.

But he has a shop in Park City and he photographs horses, wild herds that are south of Salt Lake. so I know that there's a big herd south of Salt Lake if you're ever in that area. Interesting, yeah. But no, I've never seen them in person before. It's really cool to see them in person. It is like you said reminiscent of the Wild West, the outlaws. I mean, wild horses have a big history in America.

And that's part of why a lot of people want to preserve them. And this episode is also especially fun and interesting because we're going to be talking about a veterinarian, which I think is really cool because we've never. done that and we both have our veterinary field background. Like he's like the main person in this story or yep? Oh nice. Yeah. So that we're going to be talking about the rescue of the wild herds of white sands today. And the person, his name is Dr. Don Hoagland and he wrote a book called Nobody's Horses, The Dramatic Rescue of the Wild Herd of White Sands. And it's an awesome book. Highly recommend it. I got most of my research from this book.

He wrote it himself and he's the person who was mostly involved in this. So a lot of my research is based on this. But I will say, like, with any episode that we ever do, the book is so much more detailed than anything I could go into. And this book just has so much stuff from so many different aspects of his life and from his history and then just the roundup in general that had to happen for these horses. And we'll get into it more, but these horses were really struggling in a very desisting little area and it needed to happen. I know when we talk about roundups, it's hard because we're seeing a lot of

devastating roundups right now for horses and it's hard to think about. So I do want to give like a little bit of a warning for this episode that it is an animal episode and there's going to be some really sad parts to it. But I also want to say this is a rescue story. So for people who if you're listening you're like you're about to ruin my life, like partially, partially. But it's not all about. But it's not all bad. So like, hang with me. It's, it's interesting. Hang in there. And oh, just as like a side note, total side note, when you were talking about the book, we'll add it to the book recommendation tab on our website. And we also, I don't think we ever like announced this, but we've had a lot of people ask if we could add a movie and documentary section onto the website because we reference a lot

of movies and docs as well. And we did that. So we have a movie night tab. on there now too. And I tried my best to like, I scrolled back on our feed. And I was like, all right, did we talk about a movie at this point or whatever to try and jog my memory? It's hard because we have so many episodes. Yeah. So I tried my best to add in everything that I could think of. But of course, like as we go on, we'll add to it. And if I remember or if you remember anything, we'll add to it as well. And then we put in like a little personal favorites as well that has nothing to do with the podcast at all. So if you need just like random suggestions, I think there's only two on there right now and they're mine and they're the Titanic and Predator. Stop.

You put the Titanic and Predator on the website. So enjoy that. In case you haven't heard of those two movies, it is on a recommended list on our website. Hot take from the 90s and 80s. Yeah. Brand new movie. And our website is NPADPodcast.com also. Yes, that's it.

If you're looking for the website to see Titanic. All right. Tell me about the horses. Okay. Well, first before we go into that, we'll go to White Sands National Park because it's super interesting and I have a lot of fun facts on it. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session.

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It's located in southern New Mexico. It was previously designated as a national monument in 1933, but on December 20th, 2019, it was re-designated as a national park and it's now the most visited national park site in New Mexico. It has around 600,000 visitors every year. White Sands is also really cool because White Sands National Park is like no other place on the planet. It lies within the Tullerusa Basin, which is situated between Sacramento, San Andreas, and Oskira Mountains and consists of the largest Jimson-Dunfield on the entire planet. Jimson is a soft sulfate mineral that makes the massive wave-like dunes that if you haven't been to white sands, you've probably seen in the photos. And I guess it's not actually white in color, but because of the way that it shines off of the sun, it creates the white sands that you see.

And it's here in this location because thousands of years ago, it was actually once a bed of water. And it was an ancient body of water, which was called Lake Otero. but it evaporated after the ice age and it left the dunes behind that now we see. And you've been to them and I don't know if this is, you're going to cover this or not, or if this is even true? But is it accurate that these dunes are like so much softer than like Indiana dunes? I've never been to Indiana dunes, but the sand was really soft. Like I feel like it's a finer grain of sand and it's softer compared to say the dunes on Cape Cod.

Like the beach. For sure. I took my shoes off because it was so soft and I like rub my toes in the sand. Yeah. It just like I don't know just if it's a visual or what, but it reminds me almost of confectionary sugar. You know what I mean? Yeah, it doesn't feel like confection. But imagine though, you would just sink in.

Oh, it would be so nice. It would be like a pillow. Everyone, you never leave. You just get stuck. I need a float tank of confectionary sugar. Like one of those ice. isolation float tanks, like zero gravity. That would be really nice.

That would be. That would be really soft. Fun fact also is you can sandboard at white sands. Nice. I haven't even done that in the sand dunes here. Oh, we should do that. I've only ever done it in, I was in Utah, in Knaub, Utah. And the coral, I forget the name of it right now.

The coral pink sand dunes down there. Yeah. I did it there and it was really fun. Didn't we try it? Why am I having a flashback of me and you trying to figure out sandboarding in the dunes? I think when I came to Colorado, we were looking at the Colorado sand dunes. Right. But we never went. Yeah. Okay. That's it. That's all right. It's on the list. It's on the list. We're doing it eventually. Well, another part of white sands that is really cool is home to the world's largest collection

of ice age fossilized footprints, which provides evidence of more than 20. thousand years of human existence in the area. But it's not only humans, fossilized footprints within layers of the sediment with the park show evidence of camels, Colombian mammoths, Harlan ground sloths, dire wolves, and the American lion, which is an extinct species of lion that stood four feet tall and eight feet long, and they were bigger than today's African lions. In 2018, researchers found footprints of who they believe to be a female, and these footprints show her walking almost a mile with toddler's footprints occasionally showing up beside her. So this evidence suggests that she was carrying the child and occasionally shifting from side to

side and setting them down as they walked, which it's just so cool. A mile, a mile of fossilized footprints showing that moment in this person's life. The footprints here have also painted a picture of humans coexisting and interacting with extinct ice age animals. One set of footprints they found appears to show a human stalking a giant sloth. There's also been many animations that have been created depicting what the area may have looked like thousands of years ago. And these pictures show significant water sources, lush green plants, mountains, and of course humans living amongst these extinct animals. Of course, today the landscape looks very different with miles of white sand dunes and desert plants like cacti and succulents. The species of animals that live here

are very different too. Although there are over 800 animal species that exist here, many of them are nocturnal and have adapted to survive in the harsh arid desert environment that is here. They have over 246 species of bird, more than 600 species of invertebrates, including tarantulas and western Black Widow spiders. They have different species of mice. They also have coyotes, bobcats, badgers, rabbits, rattlesnakes, and desert box turtles, which are just a few. I mean, there's so many more. Another aspect of White Sands that makes it different from other national park sites is that this national park is surrounded by two military installation sites. There's White Sands Missile Range and Holloman Air Force Base. In fact, before you visit the park, they ask you to check to see if the park is closed because they regularly have to close while White Sands Missile Range conducts missile tests.

And the road that goes through the park will close for periods up to three hours at a time because of the safety for. visitors. Interesting. Yeah. I had to look when we went. I was like, are you open? And they had had military testing that day. But I went like after 5 o'clock. It was sometimes sunset, so it was open again. White Sands Missile Range is a U.S. Army military testing area and firing range that extends 3,200 square miles, which is 8,300 square kilometers. And what's really interesting about this is it completely surrounds White Sands National Park. It's also the largest military installation in the United States. They had originally chose this area in 1942 during World War II because it served as a perfect place to test destructive weapons because of how mostly desolate the area was. The missile

range is largely a secretive military installation as it's used to test weapons of war, including nuclear, chemical, and artillery. Despite this area being so desolate, people did live here and when they moved in, the army used the right of eminent domain as a reason to force local ranchers that use the area out. And in total, 97 families were pushed out. However, at this time, it was supposed to be temporary. The army told them the installation was to be used as a resource for the ongoing war, and eventually their land would be given back to them. So a lot of these ranchers were like, of course, we want to support the war and help in any way that we can, and we'll come back to our property when you're done. So the government helped them move to temporary or permanent housing

nearby, but it was really difficult. I mean, these ranchers had a lot of animals, a lot of belongings, and their horses were difficult to move. So a lot of them were forced to leave their horses behind. But because they knew that they were going to be coming back, the ranchers figure that the horses would be able to live off of the land in the meantime, and then when they returned, they could retrieve their horses. So they were essentially kind of just let loose. However, to this day, none of the land has ever been returned to these ranchers. Instead, the land was turned into a missile range with all of this top secret research taking place to this day. And shortly afterward, after they took over this area, the military put up giant fences around the land, which effectively kept civilians

out, but it also trapped all of the old ranch horses in. Between 1945 and 1989, more than 38,000 missiles were fired within the range. Despite this and the horses living among this, the horses adapted and were surviving. They were hardy workhorses that would travel up to 25, miles in a day to forge for resources and to escape the military testing areas. They fed on flowering cacti, yucca plants, wildflowers in the spring, and found shade in dense mesquite forests. The military conducted an array of dangerous military weapons testing, including, as I mentioned in the intro, the first atomic bomb, whose codename was Trinity. It was detonated on July 6, 1945, and today serves as a national historic landmark known as the Trinity site. The army had told no one in the

surrounding area about their plans to detonate an atomic bomb and didn't explain what it was until long after the explosion. They actually lied about it and they said that it was a storage facility that had accidentally exploded. But of course, locals knew that that didn't add up. It wasn't until after the war and they had used an atomic bomb in the war that they finally came forward and were like, hey, remember that giant mushroom cloud that like, oh my God, took over the whole area and gave everyone cancer, that was actually an atomic bomb that we put on. That was us. That was us.

Surprise, it wasn't an accident. We did this really cool thing. We made an atomic bomb surprise. Everyone's like, the fuck. Very shortly after the White Sands atomic bomb, they did put up a massive chain link fence extending 1.6 kilometers, which is more than a mile long, surrounding the area because of how radioactive ground zero was. So no one was permitted to enter this area because of how dangerous it was.

until eight years later in 1953. And that was when finally they had done testing and it was safe enough for people to return. Still somehow, through all this, the atomic bombs, the missile testing, other bomb testing, whatever, chemical warfare they're testing here. The horse populations continued to do pretty well here.

Despite their lack of resources, water, and the military presence, there were almost 2,000 of them. Oh, well, I was just going to ask, how many are we talking here? A lot. They have grown a ton. a ton. And by the 1980s, the horse population had broken up into actually four separate herds within

this park. So there, or this range, I should say, because it's not technically in White Sands National Park. And because of this, how well they were doing and these herds that were going on, local communities were really impressed, including native reservations that are nearby. This area, I didn't mention it before, but of course, White Sands has a huge history in native history. And there's reservations that are nearby. And they were, of course, some of the first, I won't say first, because we have evidence of 20,000 years ago these people, but of course they were here long before any Americans and Europeans and so forth. So they have huge history there. And everyone here spoke of them in awe and admiration. Some of these horses were direct bloodlines from old Western

outlaw horses. So that was pretty cool. It's like, oh, there's Butch Cassidy's old horse's grandson running around over there. And some believed that ghost horses from Comanche tribes ran alongside with these horses. So there's a lot of lore in native history that's here. And there were stories that were circulating about them. And everyone knew of these wild herds of white sands. Of course, with them knowing about these horses, many raised concerns for their welfare. They knew they were living and trapped inside this missile range. And a lot of people came forward to the military and were like, hey, can we do something? You have 2,000 horses here and you're just firing missiles at them. But the military had made their stance very clear that they had no interest in the horses.

And because they were on government property, they didn't fall under circumstances of other protections that wild horses have. So nothing was done. That is, until one day a devastating event took place that made headlines nationwide. It was an exceptionally dry summer in July 1994. the horses were struggling to find water sources and with their increase in population but limited food supply of white sands, they were struggling to find enough food and water. And because of this, they were suffering significantly. One day that July, while an army helicopter was making a routine survey of the range, a wildlife biologist Patrick Morrow, who had been employed by the military to ensure they were complying with federal and state conservation restrictions,

came across a horrifying sight. From the air, he spotted a mass of dead or dying horses surrounding a watering hole. Except this watering hole didn't have any water anymore. It was just a big mud puddle. Immediately a team was gathered to investigate the situation and see what could be done to help these horses. But when they arrived, they found that almost all of them were in unsavable conditions. They were emaciated from starvation and dehydration, and despite their best efforts, within a 48-hour period,

122 horses died, all in the same location in White Sands Missile Range. Yikes. Yeah, it's like an awful sight. It's horrible. And the fact that it's all happening in the 48 hours, it raised a lot of questions. Why is this happening now?

They've been here for generations at this point. And one person who worked at White Sands Missile Range was so upset at this site and so just disturbed by seeing this, That same day, they called animal rights groups and the story was out to major news outlets by the following morning. Many people were speculating that the horses may have died due to secret chemical testing that the military had, and they demanded that something be done. Americans and media representation from around the world congregated to White Sands. To learn more about the story and to try to get photos of the horrific incident and to put word out of what had happened. Animal rights groups such as the Society of Protection of Wild Horses and Burrows and the Humane Society of the United States arrived to oversee that the surviving horses were cared for properly.

This public outcry forced the government and the military to make the horses of White Sands a top priority. And before the military was like, hey, we have nothing to do with it. They just happen to be here. They're not our horses, not our problem. And now that there is such an outcry for these horses, they're like, okay, this is now our problem. we need to get them out of here. And they didn't know exactly what they wanted to do at first, but it was very quickly and unanimously decided that these wild horses

could no longer live in White Sands Missile Range. They were saying that they weren't doing chemical testing, but it was clear with the droughts and the lack of food that was here and the growing populations. It's like they can't be here. And if the fence the military had built up was never built, these horses would have naturally migrated years before for more resources. These horses were only.

staying here because they were stuck. They had adapted. I mean, some of them were drinking salt water. They had very limited plant life that they could feed on. They just reading, reading his book, he was just saying a lot that these horses would have migrated somewhere else years prior. They would have never stayed here, especially with the missile testing and stuff. So task force gathered over the next several months to decide the fate of the horses, all while the horses continued to suffer and struggled through this massive drought. Rain did come and give them a little bit of reprieve in the fall, but by December they still couldn't find a solution on what to do with the horses, except that they could not stay in

white sands. It was then decided they needed to bring in some professionals to look at the situation and form a decision. That's when they called in Dr. Don Hoagland. He was an experienced veterinarian and cowboy from Colorado who had dedicated his entire life to caring for horses. from providing consultations and equine training services for the Pentagon, working with horses across movie sets for people like the Walt Disney Company.

He also led a horse rescue initiative in New Mexico, where he fostered a program in which prison inmates helped to tame wild horses who had been rounded up to be adopted out to a home. And this was really important because horses who are not able to be tamed often go to slaughter. So his initiative here was, one, to create this bond with the inmates and have them working towards a goal and also to save these horses lives, essentially. And he's also a veterinarian.

So he has his own veterinary practice in New Mexico. He eventually went down there. He opens his own veterinary practice. He just has so much experience. So he was the person to call for this. Because if they were going to round up the wild herds of white sands, it would take an expert not only to execute such a large roundup successfully without harm to the horses, but also to find a solution to where they could be rescued.

put somewhere safe. There were other risks to this mission as well. White Sands Missile Range in itself is a dangerous place to be not only because of the constant weapons testing, but also because of all the unexploded bombs and weapons that have been strewn across the landscape. This mission required a team and very experienced people if it were to work. And basically it was like, hey, do you want to save these horses? You might die. And it's really dangerous to be out here. We don't allow civilians in here. can you come out here? And he was a little hesitant at first. And then in his book, he talks about seeing a news headline with pictures of, like, there was a picture of a foal without a mom. And he was like, that was it for me. I went straight down. The compassion. I mean, obviously,

he's dedicated his life to horses in some way, shape, or form. And what else, like, what other type of situation warrants his help more than this one, you know? Yeah. And veteran Are just so special, like, I don't know, a lot of respect to them. And in it, he talks about he took an oath to help animals and he just, when this happened, he couldn't, he couldn't turn an eye. So he gets hired and he comes up with a plan. It was decided that the horses would be herded by helicopters and loud ATVs on the ground. The first roundup would include herds within five miles of the capture site and corrals so that they would have waiting. They drew a diameter of about 10 miles of landscape that they would cover initially in the very first. Roundup. After this, they would push out further until they captured the other herds living within White Sands. With Dr. Hogan leading the mission, it was also a major role of his to figure out what to do with the horses after they were caught. Because of federal regulations and a lot of political mumbo-jumbo that I'm not going to get into for the podcast, these herds were not going to be relocated to other wild spaces. And in roundups, it's common for wild horses to go to auction,

but for Dr. Hoagland, it was very important to him that they didn't go to auction. Historically, horses that are bought cheap at auction are sold for more money at slaughterhouses. And he couldn't have that happen. He's like, I'm not going to have people come in here buy these horses and send them to slaughter. They need, they deserve real lives. So while he planned the roundup, he was also actively seeking out adopters. Dr. Hoagland reiterated early on that the safety of every single horse was important. If there were any horses that looked like it would be difficult for them to travel the

being hurted with a group, they would separate that horse and capture them later. This included any previously injured horses, pregnant mares, and foals. Their team included Dr. Hoagland, Patrick Morrow, the wildlife biologist, six range riders, three helicopter pilots, and another half dozen wranglers who would remain at the horse gates to close the corral when it came time. And this corral wasn't just any type of corral. It was built with this mission in mind, and the gates were actually camouflaged to match, the area it was in. So when the horses came in, they didn't see something out of, out of normal. And it also

wasn't a fully fenced in corral. It was large and on the opposite end of it was a 200-foot-high natural lava formation that safely encircled them in one area. So the idea was once they got them to this area, the ATVs and helicopters would back off. So the horses would feel like they had escaped. And they would be in their own natural landscape. They would just leave them there, give them time to rest and not do anything further. Just give them a little bit of time. Before this even started, they spent time planning out every detail down to every minute. They had safety meetings and trainings and they only employed people with a lot of experience to help out. There was no new horse people here. Every single person were rangers, ranchers, significant knowledge in horses and also significant

if they were on the ground in ATVs, they were like the best of the best type of riders to be out in these sands. So he really took in everything in account when putting together this team. And it wasn't just him. He had a lot of people helping him, but he was definitely the plan behind how everything was executed. It wasn't until February when the first horse capture began. 27 national news station showed up to cover the story, along with huge crowds of people, a roundup of this magnitude with 2,000 horses, along with a nationwide upset, brought in a lot of spectators. Many of the animal rights activists who would be critiquing their every move and reporting on it. So the pressure for this to go well was very, very high.

As soon as they were ready, ATVs took off into the desert and the helicopters lifted above the ground, one of them who was carrying the veterinarian. They headed into the desert and it wasn't long before they caught sight of several hundred horses. As they hovered and circled around the horses, they took off in small bands of five to 20 of them, kicking up dust behind them. The team separated to round as many of them as they could. Immediately they figured out that these horses were going to be a challenge

because as the helicopter with the doctor hovered over them, these horses didn't seem scared. They would stop, turn around, some of them stopped entirely. Some of them looked pissed. They're like, why are you here and would just stop, start stomping their feet, ears back? They weren't afraid of loud noises because they had been living among the military range and they had heard this all the time. So they actually had to lower the helicopters to only.

several yards above them to even spook them into running. Which is such a departure from what I imagine in my experience with horses, they're the biggest scaredy cats in the world. Like anything... You sneeze and they jump. Yeah. Anything out of place, out of the ordinary, let alone loud noises, foreign objects like a helicopter, would just be like the end of the world for the horses that I have experienced with.

But yeah, these are a different breed altogether, you know? They're just hearty. acclimated to such different things in the environment, like out of the norm, obviously there's military operations everywhere and they were born in many of them, at least at this point, because what is this generation later? Decades, yeah, it's been 50 odd years later. So a lot of these horses were born here. They've just been living this life. And yeah, it's crazy. They're like, another helicopter, like get away from me.

I get out of my face, please. Yeah, out of my face. I'm just doing my thing. Yeah, so they're very different than other horses. And I think that's part of why so many people were so interested in them because they are so hardy. And he was describing them and a lot of them were reminiscent of workhorses. Like just these huge, bulky, it's just like massive, massive horses. And run down the line and they've bred and things too. So they're mixed with others, but very big, hardy horses. Eventually, the team had managed to get all the bands of horses driven to the

same gathering point, but again, a problem arose. Some of these horse bands were all stallions. And as it's in their nature to fight any intruding males, and they're not that afraid of the helicopters, the helicopters, the helicopters, and ATVs, and they began to fight each other. Stallions are scary. So scary. And I know that a lot of people view horses. At least, I'm going to venture to say a lot of people, because I really do believe this, unless you're an actual horse person. But you view horses as like docile farm animals like do-to-do. They're just eating grass out on them. Yeah.

They're saying now. Every once in a while, blowing their mane in the breeze. But like you're thinking of mares and gildings. And like stallions are so scary. Like especially when they're around other male horses. And they have to prove themselves. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So this starts happening. And they're fighting each other in the like, okay, we just have to drive them further. We have to pick up our game, get closer, get closer on the ground, spook them more so they remember that we're here. And as this is going on, Dr. Houglin looked down and examined the herds. He also noticed a chestnutmare who was obviously pregnant and was running hard and breathing

hard. At the length and the pace that they were hurting these horses, a healthy horse would have been able to do this without any issue. But it was clear that this particular one was struggling. Immediately he calls over the rinked. radio for everyone to back off. They were getting close to the capture site now and he thought we'll just slow down the pace and she might be able to make it and we'll see how it goes. If not, we'll have someone come in and get her away from this herd. But as soon as they backed

off, it was very obvious that she was a lot more comfortable. At this slower pace, they were still going in the right direction, said it's better to keep her with everyone instead of separating. Let's just ride this out and see if she's going to do okay. And at this point, they were hurting over 160 horses, and they were very close to the corral. As the herds got closer, their pace changed. They were all suddenly at full speeds again approaching terrain with mesquite forests and jagged lava rocks. A lot was at risk now because this was the most dangerous part of the roundup. The landscapes they were about to enter were more narrow, and here they ran risk of babies being trampled, horses falling and injuring themselves on jagged rocks, and stallions being in close quarters again in this narrow,

area coming in. News crews and the audience had also perched themselves high in the 200-foot wall of lava rock hidden from sight, but they all had their cameras out as the horses stampeded in their direction. The helicopters backed off the herds and the ATV slowed their pace, allowing them to gain some distance away from them. As the last horse ran into the area, the rangers waiting closed the gates behind them. As soon as they landed the helicopters, Dr. Hogan jumped out and walked to an area above the corral to view the horse's unsure if any of them were injured in the process, but he wanted to check right away. As he looked down on them, the first close-up he had ever had with the wild herds of white

sams, he could see their distinct features of their ancestors, draft horses and workhors, their hooves were polished to perfection from the sand. They were beautiful, but many of them were very thin. Several foals were brought in with this roundup and pregnant mares. But to Don's excitement and surprise, from his first view, none of them are appeared to be injured. And this roundup had been a success. They had put water sources out for them, and their plan was to bring them food in the morning. And in the morning, they would also have to start separating the stallion horses because having so many from different herds in one area,

it was possible that they would kill each other. But they were too riled up at this point. They couldn't go in and separate them as too dangerous. So for now that night, the hope was that they were tired from their adventures of that day and they would rest. And then first thing in the morning they would start separating them. The following morning, Dr. Hogan woke in the early hours, excited and nervous to see these horses. He had mapped out the plan for the day and it was going to be a difficult and stressful day. It needed to be executed precisely for the safety of the horses. He pulled up to the lava formation and climbed to the top to get a good view of them, fully expecting the wild horses from the day before to be roaming around the corral. But to his dismay, the corral was

completely empty, minus one newborn full who was alone and crying. Oh my god, that is the saddest image. It's so sad. And the way he describes it in the book is like heart wrenching. He scurried down the hill as quickly as he could to this full, realizing it wasn't more than a couple of hours old. He also found that it was blind and it would have had no way to follow the herd wherever they had gone. He cradled the foal in his arms and brought it to a corral closer to his truck. He wrapped it in a blanket and bottle fed it frozen mares milk he had brought with him. Dr. Hoaglin knew at this point that he really needed to find the mother and if he didn't that this full was now going to be his full responsibility. He had led this roundup. Somehow these horses had gotten away on his watch and he

immediately accepted if I have to be here day and night with this full, I will be. He started to search the area for any signs of where the horses may be or how they could have gotten out, but he couldn't figure out where they had gone. His first thoughts were that maybe someone had released them. One of many locals in the area wanted them to remain free. This was a very controversial thing that was happening. Some people wanted them to stay in white sands and believe that they should remain wild. So he thought maybe someone opened the corral in the middle of the night. So the corral isn't collapsed in any area. It's completely intact. Completely intact. No sign of where they could be. And he thought maybe someone stole them. But then he's like, how can someone steal 2,000 horses?

And he goes over to the gate to see if there's any evidence that they could have gone out. But there's no hoof prints. I mean, there's hoof prints from the day before, but nothing that looks fresh, nothing going in the opposite direction that he can see. And there's no exit points. He can't find anything. Don't tell me they mountain goaded it up that lava thing. Oh, they sure did. Horses are the shit.

Like, people shit on, like, horse girls. But like this girl is a fan of forces, okay? Because they're really, they're ingenious. Like they're really unique animals and they're good problem solvers. And they seem large and clumsy and they kind of are. But don't put things past them because they can figure it out and accomplish a lot. They're smart. And he's still searching this area and he comes across one of the people who was helping him out the day before.

His name's Les. and he is actually part of the families who their land was taken from the military site. So he's an rancher. He had been there for years. He had actually been someone who had been monitoring and helping care for these horses for years and making sure that they were okay. And he was already there that morning. And he goes up to him and he's like, hey, have you seen the horses?

And he points to the 200 foot lava ledge and tells him that they must have left during the night. and they had climbed the steep rocky terrain and traversed the ledges one by one. I just really wish I could have been a fly in the wall of that of the first horse, because you know it was one of them. Yeah, one of them led that and then everyone followed behind. Except for the full, which makes a lot of sense now because when you were first describing it, I was picturing part of the corral being compromised in some way and they gone out. But I was like, why wouldn't have the full followed?

even if it was blind, like the scent of the mother, the mother being with it. But of course, it can't. It just entered the world. Yeah. And he said it was only, it seemed to be only about two hours old. Right. So that mayor was just like, let me just push out this kid real quick. And then I'm out. I'm a head out. Yeah. It's like, I don't like it here. Yeah. But with the full only being about two hours old, it did give a hint that they hadn't been gone very long. If one of the horses had just gave birth, they couldn't be far. They couldn't be far. And it was most likely that they were still up there because it would have been very hard to move quickly on the terrain that they had just entered. The veterinarian, he was also a runner. So he took off in a sprint in that direction to follow the ridge line on the ground, but to look up. And he wanted to see if he could find them anywhere. And part of why he decided to run was he knew that if they brought any machines, if they brought ATVs or helicopters again, they could spook them

while they're up on this ledge and he doesn't want that. He wants them to be safe. So after about half an hour, he found them. They were lined up on the ridge walking slowly across and they were completely silent. The foals weren't whining. The stallions were walking single file with each other and not a sound or a fight was amongst any of them. It's like we need to be very, very quiet. Very quiet and take each step very carefully. We get a sneak snake out of here. Yeah. reason break. Imagine that site, 160 horses just tiptoeing away, tiptoeing across a lava ledge. You got to do what you got to do, I guess, you know. Yeah, yeah, they really want to be free.

The only plan he had was to climb the lava rock and stand in the herd's path, hoping that seeing him would force them to just turn around and walk back the same way they went. There was no going up or down. They were on a ledge. And they were hoping that if he just stood the there that they would turn around. And his hope was also a big consideration that he put into this was he hoped that it was a mayor who was leading. Because if it was a stallion leading the group, he's like, that stallion will just run me over. It's a 50-50 shot. A 50-50 shot.

But he's like, I got to do something here. And he wasn't the only one with that plan. When he looked up onto the ledge, he seized that less had actually beat him there and was already on his way to do the same thing. He meets up with them. And when they come face to face with the herd, they were both a very, very. relieved to see that the horse leading the pack was not a stallion. It was two mares who were in the front. So they're the thinkers. They put this plan together. They're like, let's get out of here. And one of them was actually a mare that had recently given birth. Oh. There were a lot because there were a lot of foals and stuff in the group. So it's not to know if it was that foal's mom or not. But it had been a mayor that had recently given birth. And when they saw the two men, just as they hoped, the two mares in the front just turned around. And all, All of the ones behind followed the same direction.

It's like dominoes. It's like a domino effect. They all just turn around and they just start walking in the exact direction they came, single file. They're like, oh, fuck, we got caught. They're like, all right, we're heading back. It took two hours before they all arrived back to the corral. But miraculously, not a single one of them was hurt during this journey. Sadly, Dr. Hogan tried to reintroduce the baby to the herd, but he was rejected and none

of the mares claimed him to feed him and it did become Don's full job to take care of him. Not only to feed him, but also as a small foal out in the desert, he was prey. The foal was at serious risk of a pack of coyotes killing him. Getting into the corral would be super easy for coyotes. So he named him Salt Creek Sam and he became a huge priority for him to save. That day, they also built a structure that would prevent the horses from escaping again. So they built a big, a fenced area where they had escaped on the Lava Rock before, and Don spent that night sleeping in his truck beside them to make sure that nothing went awry. The next day is consisted of grueling work. Don needed to really examine these horses, and performing veterinary medicine on a wild animal is not easy. He also wanted to get

blood work on them because he wanted to investigate if they carried any diseases, especially since 122 of them died in one single day, which sparked this entire mission. So he really wanted to get blood work And part of this, to do some of the stuff that they needed to do, they needed to sedate some of the animals. It was a really difficult task. They also needed the males to be gelded and the entire herd needed to be branded. And when you hear that, obviously, that's devastating. And to hear that it's hard. And it was for Dr. Hoagland, too.

He talks a lot about how he didn't like this aspect of the job. And he actually really did not like removing horses from the wild. But he knew that in this circumstance, it was. the only way to save their lives. I have a question about that just for my own curiosity. Yeah. So in the book, does he, or if you have any knowledge of this, if it's like wildly different from his practice, because I mean, I just imagine from my own experience, like obviously small animal medicine is wildly different than large animal medicine just at the bare minimum. It just is. Like if you work with cats and dogs, it's going to be very different than if you work with cows and horses and farm animals.

But I'm just thinking of like he owns his own practice. And when you're doing veterinary medicine at like a practice, there are certain parameters in place that you just cannot do in the field. You know what I mean? Like I'm thinking of gelding horses. And I just had a flashback to when I was going through school for being a tech. And I had to do like at the very end, you know, doing all these clinical. and had to do farm animal tasks and going to the farm and watching sheep and goats get castrated.

They were like, I was working with a large animal vet that usually it's like in small animal vet med. We weigh the animals down to the exact kilogram, calculate their doses, give them medication, watch them, monitor them, then hook them up to anesthesia. Obviously, you're watching them. None of that. They're like, they're like, looks like maybe about, hmm. 15 kigs. So that's probably about this much. If they even get anything. If they even get any sort of medications. And then it's like, I remember holding down that on a fold out picnic table and this poor, I have video, I had to have videos of it for school. It's not like from some sick. Because you have

prove that you did it. Right. Yeah. So I, and obviously I'm just assisting. I'm not the veterinarian doing the procedure. But literally, I was helping hold down. this goat that was getting castrated. Don't traumatize everybody, but I won't traumatize everybody, but essentially it was a little more involved than it should have been because there were some complications. And the goat was just like kept waking up. So they're like, just give it more like in its jug. So I had to keep like pushing a guesstimate amount of drugs into this goat's jugular vein

as I'm holding it down like WWE style on this fold out picnic. table in someone's driveway. And I'm used to like monitoring anesthesia in a completely sterile environment. Like everything has a monitoring. There's a protocol for everything to keep them safe. So I'm just wondering, I guess that's a very long-winded question, but basically like, did he talk any bit about how different it was doing any of those procedures to the horses out in the field, like in white sands versus in the environment of his clinic and how that was. difficult for him or like did I'm not used to I mean even for his clinic I eat a lot of times he was going to ranches and doing these things so it sounded like the he didn't really compare that I remember that

he compared how it was different from how he normally did things but I mean it's certainly different than small animal medicine where it's just like throw some a little bit of sedation if they could get close enough to the horse to do it yeah and I mean even equine med even for people people who, I mean, people spend a lot of money on their horses, not only purchasing but caring for them. Horses aren't cheap to own, even in like a ranching or farming situation. So I'm not saying that people don't care about them as much as they do small animals. It's just wildly different. It's wildly different. And the pain protocol is very different. I saw a horse get eye surgery while awake standing up. Yeah, like, all right, just keep my eye open. Yeah, they were heavily

sedated and we had a like a trough under his face so he could kind of balance himself right there, but he was standing and he just stood there while this doctor performed eye surgery on him. And he's, he was awake. He was awake and he's really digging into his eyes. So I'm just, yeah, it's very different. And like, I mean, there's different protocols for everything like, like you said, when people here like they had to, you know, castrate them and brand them. And it's a traumatic experience for the wild animals because they have no idea what's going on, but it could be industry standard otherwise. Yeah, for sure. And in this circumstance, like, this was the only way to save their life. And it's also traumatic for the people doing it, too, because not, I don't know if

traumatic's the right word, but it's really dangerous. I mean, this job is, they're going home with cuts and bruises and every day is a struggle for this. This is not an easy thing to do. And it's also hard because a lot of the people who are here, especially for this, they're here strictly because they want to save these horses. So doing this, it's hard. It's not an easy job to do. And while he's caring for these horses over the next several days, he found them to be in all kinds of conditions. Dehydrated, some were on the brink of starvation. Some of them were living with huge tumors on their bodies. Him and his team worked hard day and night to care for them, often escaping, very narrowly escaping serious injuries from horses more than one. time. It was an extremely difficult job and at times he even questioned what he was doing there. But one night, he received a sign that he interpreted as a sign that he was exactly where he

needed to be. One night during a full moon on a drive back to the corrals to care for his foal, Don looked out his window to see large figures suddenly appear outside of the foal's pen. There were eight massive stallions, sizes that he had never seen before. As quickly as he saw them, they vanished into the night. Don rolled his windows down and he could smell them, but they were nowhere to be seen. His thoughts trailed to a native folklore that was very prevalent in this area, specifically a story of ghost horses that resided here. Many years ago, when settlers were trying to conquer this area and drive indigenous people out of their lands, there was a battle. The Apache people were forced to retreat and leave their horses behind. And often when this happened, the people who remained would either

drive out the horses and scatter them or they would take them as their own. But in this, these people horrifically murdered all of their horses. And when they returned, they found them. Legends now say that the phantom stallions roam with the wild herds of white sands, and people have reported seeing them occasionally with them. Of course, this was something that he thought of in his mind that he could be witnessing, but that seems super unlikely to be true. He could smell the horses, he saw them, and he gets out of his truck to invest. As he approached Salt Creek Sam's pen, he found several coyotes dead and torn apart. There were no signs of the stallions he could see anywhere, but suddenly he could smell them again.

He had a voice in his head that told him that he needed to immediately get back inside his truck, but for some reason he didn't listen. And out of the darkness appeared one massive gray stallion. It took one step closer to him and watched him. It didn't make a sound. It didn't appear aggressive. and it also didn't appear afraid. Then seven more stallions appeared. They stood in a circle around him.

Dr. Hogan didn't move. For a man who normally wasn't afraid of horses, in this moment he was terrified and he was frozen in place. To his surprise, none of these horses appeared to be aggressive. And he couldn't fathom how he too, because it was obvious now that they had killed the coyotes, how they weren't coming after him. Suddenly, he heard a large branch snap behind him.

The sound made him jump, and he turned to see what it was, but he saw nothing. When he turned back around, all the stallions had disappeared. In that moment, Don collapsed in the sand with tears in his eyes, and he felt privileged to have seen a ban of stallions. He sat and thought unsure of why they didn't kill him, but he felt more sure now than ever that he had been in white sands for a reason and that he was meant to be here and he was meant to save these horses.

I love that story. I added it in there specifically for you. There's a lot of stories in the book, And I was like, I have to tell Danielle this part. This part is so great because I just feel like, first of all, Salt Creek Sam is just such a cute name. It is a cute name. So props to Dawn for that.

But it's almost like those horses were Sam's guardian angels at a time that he needed them. And Dawn is a guardian angel for the rest of the horses. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's a lot of like looking out for one another and kind of just this unspoken knowing that like, okay, you're here to do good. We're here to do good. We're here to protect. And you know what I mean?

And for him, he's not even sure if they're real. He like blinks and they're gone. But at the same time, he's like, they have to be real. They clearly were protecting the foal that he was caring for. They killed a pack of coyotes right outside of its pen. Well, that's what I'm saying. If the coyotes weren't there, I would probably lean towards. they probably weren't real.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Because there's like physical evidence now that they're real. Right. Right. But it is. And he said he's like, I just knew in that moment like there were something happened there where I knew that I was meant to be here. And it's what a crazy experience to have though.

Right. I know. To be like, am I doing, like, why am I here? Am I doing? I know I'm doing the right thing, but this is so hard and it's grueling and it sucks. And then to have that at the time that you need it. Mm-hmm. The universe.

It's always looking out for you. It is, especially if you're doing good things and if your intentions are good. And sometimes good things are the hard things. Which is so true in veterinary medicine, too. I mean, I won't go into stories or anything. But in veterinary medicine, as techs, as doctors, as whatever your role is, assistant, there's a lot of decisions that you have to make in veterinary medicine that are really hard to do, but you're doing it because you care for the animals that you're taking care of.

With this, after this, the roundups of the horses continued. They were bringing out helicopters and ATVs to bring them back. Horses at the same time were being prepared for adoption and were being shipped out as they were ready. It wasn't easy and it didn't all go as planned. A lot of these horses were set on staying free and they did everything they could to get away from them. In one instance, Don almost lost his life. In an attempt to save a newborn full who had been separated during a roundup from his mom, he ran out into the desert to try and carry it back.

From the helicopter, they could see a pack of coyote stalking the newborn, and Dr. Hoagland had gone to the ground to help it. But in the midst of him trying to help this fall, the mom came back. And not only did the mom come back, but a massive stallion was with her. The stallion charged him, and the doctor managed to jump back into the helicopter just in time for the stallion to grab the cuff of the bottom of his jeans and rip it off before the helicopter took off. Oh, God. Horse bites are so gnarly. So gnarly. I haven't personally been bit, but my cousin got bit

and on her side, on her stomach, and it was a really good chunk. And it didn't break skin. Thankfully, she had a lot of layers on. I think it was winter. But the bruise, and she had teeth mark bruise. And she was just black and purple for like two months. It was horrible. And that's the thing. It's like if she didn't have layers on, like that's the same thing. The only time I've ever been bit was, it was a few years ago and I was, there was one particular horse I worked with, her name was Sierra and she was super sassy. And like it, like, I always knew to just kind of like never really turn my back to her completely. Because not that she would trample me or anything, but because she would be a little shit and like try and nip at you and stuff. Yeah, I'm going to bite you. And she was

being like really good one day and I was in her stall with her and I was cleaning. And it was freezing. It was Colorado winter. I had tons of layers on car hearts, like the whole nine yards. I was bundled. And it was like 4.30 in the morning too. So it was super cold. And all of a sudden it was so fast, like lightning. Like she whipped her head around. Like she didn't even turn her body. She just whipped her head around, bit my ass. So fast. And then like whipped her head back into the corner. So when by the time I looked, she was just completely turned. She like, you know, peek over her shoulder. Like, what? What was that? Oh my god, did you get bit too? I'm like, you little shit.

And yeah, same thing, like, I had the gnarliest bruise. And if I didn't have those layers on, a chunk of my skin would have been missing. Yeah. For sure. Because they're just like those, ugh. Their jaws are just so strong. It's not even if they have sharp teeth because they don't. It's just they don't.

They're so strong. Mm-hmm. And the kicks are another thing. I've never been kicked, thankfully. But I've known people who have been. to. And it's not great. No. No, no.

For Dr. Hoagland, this wasn't his only near-death experience. In an accident that led to the corral not being open during a roundup of 200 horses, resulted in Don being caught in a stampede. Miraculously, he was only trampled by the very last horse in the group. But he was knocked unconscious and broke his leg. I was going to say, all it takes is one. All it takes is one, but he got trampled by 200 horses and only one, the very last. one ran him over. Wait, he got, oh, he was in a stampede of 200 and got trampled by one. Yes,

okay. Yeah, I think I said he got trampled by 200 horses. You did. And I was like, oh, shit. Holy shit. And even with his broken leg, it didn't stop him. He continued to show up every day, and he refused painkillers because he wanted his mind to be intact. He was also a surgeon, which if you're familiar with the veterinary field at all, veterinarians wear a lot of hats. And he was not only just a doctor administering medications and helping things. He's also a surgeon. And if any of these horses needed emergency surgery, he needed to be in the right mind. So he broke his leg and refused painkillers. Their tactics changed as the rounded up herds that were further inside of the thousands of acres of White Sands Missile Range. They set up another capture point at a watering hole. And at this

one, they simply waited for horses to arrive. And sure enough, in this one, instead of rounding them up, They just sat, waited for them to show up, and they captured another 200 this way. The captured horses were doing very well. They were accepting the food that they were putting out for them, and they were drinking the water as well, which was something they weren't sure if they would accept because it was coming out of containers, which was something they weren't used to. They were gaining weight. The foals were doing well.

Trainers were working with the horses to make them adoptable. Don was adamant that the adoptions would happen and no auctions to ensure that they went to good homes. and he also ensured that the horses that weren't able to be trained would be sent to sanctuaries. They held adoption events in White Sands along with shipping some of the horses to Oklahoma, Texas, and Tennessee, and all of this was going very well. By the late summer of 1995, they captured, rescued, and moved 1,800 horses out of White Sands Missile Range. Their original orders had only been for 1,125 horses. Don took care of the horses and quarantined those who knew. needed to be treated before adoptions.

People who came to the adoptions commented on how healthy all the horses were and called them fat and sassy, where other roundups they had been to, the horses had been found very frail and in poor condition. Don prided himself in the work he was able to do. And of course, everyone else who was involved to make these horses healthy. Even animal rights activists who had adamantly protested the removal of the wild horses arrived at these adoptions and had kind words and were very impressed with how they had initiated this. However, with this, there were animal rights activists who were still fighting this,

and they were able to secure that 300 wild horses be left in White Sands Missile Range, which I don't like I get it, but I also don't because White Sands Missile Range is a really grueling environment for them to be on and they weren't doing that well. But a year later, environmental groups were finding that the horses were having an impact on sensitive habitats that were in white sands and less who we talked about before was actually employed to lead their removal and on march 18th 1999 less removed the final 75 horses left in white sands and they were transported to south dakota to actually remain wilds on lands in south dakota okay and yeah i was going to ask because sometimes when we're talking about wildlife biologists um again

hard decisions hard things but when you say remove sometimes that does mean to oh no sorry yeah no they were just removed from the location and move somewhere else none of these horses were no horses were euthanized in um in the roundups cool the wild free roaming horses and burrows act of 1971 was written to protect wild horses stating they are living symbols of the historic and pioneer spirit of the west and enrich the lives of the american people and because the white sands horses were on government property they were not classified under this act which is why they were originally not removed for so long and not until this huge thing had happened with the 122 horses dying. At the beginning of the 19th century, nearly 2 million wild horses roamed in the West, but within the last 30 years, Congress has worked hard to get rid of wild horses entirely.

Today, six of the original 16 Western states that had wild horses no longer have any herds, and the U.S. may at some point have zero, free roaming horses. Dr. John Hogan, he did pass away last year, but he was an advocate to keep free roaming horses. In his book, he writes about understanding every side and believing in management of populations, but that they are important and we should manage them, not eradicate them. Many ranchers believe that the horses are nuisances and add no value to the land and that they use up these precious resources, especially when not managed correctly and they're allowed to overbrose. read in these areas. And while Dr. Hogan does talk about in his book that he sees both sides, he believes that horse lovers, wildlife enthusiasts, and history buffs interested in old Western

history should be able to enjoy the ecotourism of wild horses. He advocated for stopping the slaughter of wild horses and rehabilitating them in programs like his prison programs to be trained and then adopted to good homes. And he ended his book, Nobody's Horses with this quote, which I thought was really really important just talking and I know with this episode I didn't go much into the politics of horse roundups or anything but he did a bit in his book and the last part that he ends it with is he says it is time for solutions not finger pointing and not just words it is time for action funding will be required help save the free roaming horses from destruction contact your elected representatives and respectfully ask him or her to get involved in why

wild management of free roaming horses. After all, the horses belong to all of us, the land belongs to all of us, and the elected representatives who control our money work for all of us. These nobody's horses are everybody's horses. That reminds me of, and I know you intentionally did not get into the politics of it, which I understand why, but there was a episode of a podcast that I listen to. God, they might have done more in recent times in the recent years, but I listened to one. The podcast is called Species Unite, and it's by Elizabeth Novagrats. And every single episode is about a different topic in either animal rights, different issues

with animals. It's such a good, informative podcast. So if you're interested, I would give it a listen. But I learned about this whole wild horse dilemma from that podcast. originally. Oh, okay. And it was years. I remember listening to it. Like, you know, you're like, I didn't remember where I was when I learned about this. I was at the gym, Gold's Gym in at home when I moved back from Colorado. So this must have been at least three or four years ago. So it's an older episode. But they got, she had someone on interviewing them about it and how it's, it's a big issue,

obviously, like you kind of touched upon. And also how the, a big dilemma of it is because aside from being on government property or ranchers feeling like their nuisances while they're on their ranching land. The vast majority of where they are is on BLM land and ranchers and the cattlemen's association and private landowners are having a big say and what happens to the horses and other animals on public land. And that's kind of where like the heads start clashing. And there's a lot of problems. And that's when I learned about that. I was like, oh my God, I had no. I, idea and it makes sense because it's very similar to, you know, predators like wolves. It is.

And I just found it so fascinating. And shout out to that episode like four years ago. If you can find that episode. If you can find it. But yeah, I'm sure the book goes like super into that. It does. It does. And it talks a lot about the horses because it does touch on how they do need to be managed

because they are overeating a lot of the plant life in the areas that they are, and it's not doable to have such huge herd populations in certain areas. So there is that side of it. But there's also, there's, of course, when you get into the farmland things, and a lot of people think that they're taking up just precious land that could be used for farming and for helping people make money and raise food. And agriculturally, it's taking up a lot of space. But then there's also a huge debate in how we're handling it too, because if we're taking

these beautiful wild horses that do hold so much American history and they're being sent to slaughter, that's not right. So that we can graze cattle. So we can graze cattle. Yeah. That doesn't make sense either. So it's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things about it. And part of what I really liked about this story was the veterinarian behind it.

It was a tough job to do. hard and he did it in a way that he was trying to save every single horse, which I thought was really special. And also, this was a different type of roundup because we see these roundup of these wild horses that are thriving and sent to slaughter or whatever it is. But these horses were actually, they were trapped in a missile range and they were surviving atomic bombs and all of this stuff, which just shows like how resilient they are as a species and how adaptable they are. But then this actually really needed to happen for their welfare and whether or not you agree with how it happened and how they weren't kept wild is totally different because, I mean, it would have been nice

to see them be able to stay wilds, of course, but then you get into the whole politics of where would you put 2,000 horses? Well, that's the thing. And that's like, you know, a lot of people have opinions about like, well, they should be left wild, but not near me because I need my land for ranching or I need my land for whatever fill in the blank it's like okay I want this but not near me and if like enough people say that it's like okay well where do we where do they go you know yeah and that's just the story with so many different wild species in this country and others you know and if you're bringing in these horses into other places where there's already wild horses then you're encroaching on other herds and you're putting them in a place that is already sensitive to whatever

the horses are doing, eating the plants and things there too. So then you get into a whole another conversation of is it like environmentally okay to put them in these places as well. So it gets really complicated. Yeah. Is it is that a responsible choice? Yeah. It's so yeah, multifaceted and it's so interesting. And I think that's why wildlife conservation and environmental conservation is so complex and it takes a while to make any sort of movement in decision making because of the different subsets of questions that you have to answer before you can make any sort of decision and yeah and that's why it's just it's important and it's just difficult so but how cool would it be if someone like rodin was like I adopted one of those foals and here's a

picture of it because horses really cool you know Some of those foals are probably still alive. Yeah, it said in the book that there are some horses still in Tennessee and Oklahoma and Texas that are still alive today. That's really cool. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you got, you chose this story because I love a good animal story. And I was mentally prepared for it to be worse than it was because you gave that warning. Oh, that's good. Because I know parts of it were really sad. And I did, I will say that the book is a little bit more sad than I have made the story for everyone's listening pleasure. There's a lot of sad things that just happen, and he really dives deep into situations that are sad. I recommend his book so much. It's nobody's horses, the dramatic rescue of wild herd of white sands. And it's just written so well from his point of view, from his perspective. And I think another important part of talking about wild horses is they're not a species that have been wild in the U.S. we say American history because it's not like we had wild horses roaming the fields for 20,000 years.

Millennia. They're introduced. They were introduced by Spanish explorers. They were left here and they adapted to the wildlife here. So that's another point that he makes in his book too about how now they are history. They're walking, living, breathing history of how the U.S. started and was created. So, I mean, it's very interesting. There's a lot of aspects to it. You should read his book. But yeah, That's all I have for the story today. Well, thanks for taking us to New Mexico. It's been a long time coming. I know you've been, we did Carl.

You did Carl's bad. Yeah. Like forever ago. That was like the second or third episode. I don't even, fourth episode. Yeah, a very long time ago. Yeah. Well, cool.

Thanks for sharing. Everyone will see you next time. Catch you on the flip side. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us again this week.

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