National Park After Dark - What Happened to Amy? Shoshone National Forest

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

When a marathon runner training for the Olympics runs into Shoshone National Forest, she disappears without a trace. Police immediately pin her new husband as the main suspect, but through their investigation they discover new information, secrets, and a serial killer who was lurking nearby. For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Cozy Earth: Use our link and code NPAD to get 35% off.Microdose: Use code NPAD to get free shipping and 30% off your first order.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shoshone National Forest has been a recreational wonderland for outdoor enthusiasts for generations. Its rocky landscapes have inspired rock climbers and ice climbers to travel from all corners of the country to get a chance to play in its countryside. The forests have become a haven for hikers and an extreme training zone for runners. Dirt bikers, photographers, hunters, and snowmobilers have all found their own form of paradise and these carved out valleys, alpine lakes, and massive peaks. Unfortunately, with all of these people dying to be here, it's hard to decipher the good ones from the bad ones.

And if anything bad were to happen here, the only ones who will see it will be the dust. Douglas Furs in the Lodgepole Pines. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Excuse me, are you doing true crime? I know. I am. Surprise. Wow, I am surprised, actually. But I'm looking forward to it. It's been a while.

Yeah, I stumbled upon this story a while ago. And I kind of had it on the back burner. I have in my phone, I have a little thing of notes where I put in stories that I'm thinking about telling at some point. And I was going through all of them and I was like, you know, I personally haven't really touched on a more true crime-based story in quite a while. I thought it was time. All right. It is time. It's funny because the question, when we were doing or preparing for the Spotify Live a few weeks ago, we put a little questionnaire out about like, is there any questions in particular you guys want us to cover? And there was a few of them that asked,

do you think you'll ever run out of content? No. And the answer is hell no. Absolutely not. Which what? It is a valid question because we question that in the very beginning too. Like, what are we going to do? And then very quickly learned that there is more content than we are able to even really scratch the surface of. So we'll always have stories. Which is very lucky for us. Yes. That is true. Yeah, we'll always have stories. It is funny because when we first started, we're like, okay, we're picking a niche in national parks. Like how many stories are they're really going to be? And the limit does not exist.

Correct. Yeah, they're endless. Well, I'm excited for this national forest because it's in an area that I love very much. It sure is. And I thought it would be fun to touch into a national forest, but I also thought that this one was really cool because it is technically a national forest, but it borders Yellowstone National Park. And they're very closely related because they share the same type of ecosystem.

There's a lot of protections here because of it. And it gets a lot of visitors because it has Yellowstone National Park there. It also has Grand Teton National Park, which isn't too far. But it has the Bridger-Teton National Forest, which is right next to it. So everything in this specific area, I think it said there's 25 million acres of protected land. And that's not all the Shoshone National Forest, but they're all bordering each other and make up that much. In the Shoshonee National Forest, there's 2.4 million.

acres of protected land. So it's still a huge, huge landscape. There are three different mountain ranges that are here, and it has peaks that range from 4,000 feet to 13,804 feet, which is 4,207 meters in elevation. There are alpine lakes, hiking trails, mountain biking opportunities, and this area is also an important historical area for preserving accounts from the Shoshonean indigenous people, who the forest is named after, because they have found, their home here for thousands of years. It also serves as the integral part of a 10 million acre greater Yellowstone ecosystem where that all combines. Another fun fact is Shoshone National Forest was the very first federally protected national forest in the entire United States when it

was signed into law in 1891, which was 19 years after Yellowstone was established. Yeah, that's not super surprising just because of its proximity to the first national park. Yeah, first national park, National Forests all within the same region. And this national forest is managed by both the Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service and the Wind River Indian Reservation, belonging to the Shoshone people and the Arapaho people. Archaeological evidence has shown that indigenous people have called this area home for at least 10,000 years. When a treaty was established in 1868, the U.S. government agreed to preserve 44 million acres, which is 18 million hectares, as tribal lands. After several amends to the treaty and the U.S. taking back the promised land that they had originally said they would give,

the Wind River Indian Reservation now preserves two million acres, which is 810,000 hectares. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L. Every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen.

Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Within this National Forest, there's an abundance of both flora and fauna. The Shoshone National Forest is filled with aspen trees, rocky mountain junipers, pine and sagebrush, and lots of other things. After the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone in the mid-1990s, the endangered grahammed. gray wolf found their way into the national forest as well. There are also timber wolves, cougars, coyotes, wolverines, bachorn sheep, grizzly bears. There's lots of grizzly bears. In the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, that 10 million miles that it covers, there's about 700 grizzly bears, but within

this national forest, there's approximately 125 of them. This forest serves as a place of solitude and outdoor explorations for thousands of people throughout thousands of years. Now there's trail running, hiking, snowmobiling, fishing, and a National Scenic Byway that leaves through the forest. So there are over 500,000 people who visit every single year. This location, while it has lots of recreational opportunities, there are also stories that lie within the national forest, including those of the indigenous people. But the story that we are going to be focusing on today is we're going to be talking about a disappearance that happened there.

And that disappearance is of Amy Rowe. And she disappeared in the national forest while she was on a tour. trail run. She was in peak physical health condition at 24 years old and she recently married when she went into the forest and was never seen again. What year is this? This was in 1997. Okay. Were you ever a trail runner? Absolutely not. Yeah. I have a lot of respect for trail runners, but absolutely not. Yeah. I don't think I'm coordinated enough, you know, like how they just, because obviously there's roots and rocks and uneven surfaces and not only the physical peak condition you need to be in for the endurance it takes to do trail running, but even just like the putting one foot in front of another without falling aspect of the whole thing.

I don't know. Especially down steep areas. Yeah. I did. I say absolutely not, but I did try it once. And I know I wasn't doing it right. And any trail runner who's listening to this will be like, God, but I gave myself shin splint so badly that it just turned me off from trail running. And that and the fact that I was dying after.

But I did give it a shot because I thought trail runners are really cool. But I am not one of them. We're not part of the club. Yeah. I know. We're not part of the club. But we admire from afar. That's right.

So a little bit about Amy. Amy's name before she was married was Amy Joy Row and she was born in Santa Barbara, California. Her and her three siblings grew up together with both of their parents. Her father was a city administrator. and her mother taught children living with a variety of different physical disabilities. When Amy was only in sixth grade, she fell in love with running. She spent middle school and high school on the track team and got progressively better through the years.

But when she actually first started running, she was really horrible. Kind of, by the way I said it, she wasn't good. And her coaches were even like, you know, this really isn't your forte. Maybe you shouldn't be out here. And she was really determined, though, that didn't stop her at all. While she was on the team and people said that, they still were encouraging. Of course, they're her coaches, but they're like, you know, I don't know if you're going to make the goals that you're wishing for. But she practiced and with a lot of training, she proved them all wrong.

By the time she entered college at the University of Wyoming, she became the captain of the cross-country team and track team. She frequented conferences and competitions where she ended up setting records on her team and was named an all-star team. And I did read that some of her records still have never been broken. So she really proved people wrong, huh? Yeah. While she was a student at the University of Wyoming, she met Steve Betchal, who was athletic and lovely outdoors as much as she did. While he wasn't a runner, he was a very talented rock climber, and it wasn't long before they

fell in love. After college, they moved into an apartment together in Lander, Wyoming, and they chose this location because it was right outside of Shoshone National Forest, which is historically a beautiful place for rock climbing and for trail running. So it was kind of like the paradise for both of them to be in. After college, Amy did continue running and she was competing in regional and national competitions. She also ran the Boston Marathon in 1996.

And during this time of the story, she was training for a 10K that she was planning to run. But on top of that, Amy was training to qualify for the 2000 Olympics. Oh, wow. Okay. So she went from like, you're not that great of a runner to you're one of the best runners in the world, potentially. In July of 1997, Steve and Amy bought their first home together, and they were making their preparations to move in. They were still in their apartment. They were in the transition period. The morning of July 24, 1997, was supposed to be an ordinary but busy day.

Steve had made plans to go rock climbing with a friend about 70 miles away from their home, and that morning he said goodbye to his wife around 9.30. Amy had plans herself that morning. She left to teach a fitness class, and then she spent the late morning and early up. afternoon running errands that they needed for their move. So she did things. Like she called the phone company to get a landline set up back when landlines were a thing. I still remember my home phone number. Me too. I don't, I won't say it on here because it's still my mom's phone number and she would be like, she'd call me immediately and be like, take that off. But we still have a landline. She uses it? No, actually, it's really funny. Every time I go there, like the phone rings and she just sits there and never answers it. But I think it's connected to the Wi-Fi or something now. I don't totally know why it's there.

I feel like it's like the number that you give that you know you're not going to respond to you. It's like a throwaway email like when people want you to like give your email at like Ulta or whatever. Like I have a total fake email for that. I'm like I do not want you email. Yes, please. Like I already have enough spam mail. And I swear to God, when you unsubscribe from something, it doesn't. It doesn't. And then I feel like it I feel like it gives your email to other things because then I'm like on a mailing list for something I've never even heard of like the next day. And they're sneaky. Super sneaky. Yeah.

I've recently been falling victim to stuff like that too, like Facebook ads. I like to my shopping through Facebook ads now. It's so bad. I'm like, I'm the people they're targeting. It's working. It just reminds me. It's working. Yeah.

I send me some spam mail. I'll buy it. No. But she set up her landline. She had their gas turned on in their house. and she purchased home insurance. She was kind of just doing all like the stuff that no one wants to do for your home when you're first starting out, but like has to get done.

And while she was doing this after she finished, she stopped at a photo printing store because she also had a pretty big hobby in photography and she was really good at it. And she had plans to enter a competition. So she went to this photography store to print some of her work. And then after she went to a local shop called Gallery 331 to talk to the owner who was there and his name was Greg Wagner. While she was there, Greg noted that Amy seemed to be in a hurry as she was repeatedly looking down at her watch to check the time during their conversation. She left the store at 2.30 p.m. that day, and Greg Wagner ended up being the last person that Amy has ever been known to speak to.

Amy then after this, she drove to Shoshone National Forest in the Wind River Mountain area to do a practice run along the route that was for her upcoming 10K race. According to an eyewitness account later, one person reported to have seen a woman who resembled Amy running along Loop Road, which is a 70-mile scenic drive through the forest that ends in Lander, Wyoming. She was wearing Adidas Trail shoes, a yellow tank top, and black shorts. Meanwhile, while Amy was on her run, Steve had been with a friend all day, and he returned around 4.30 that afternoon to find that Amy wasn't home yet, which at the time wasn't particularly concerning because it was still light out, and he knew. knew that she had a busy day. So he didn't think too much of it and he went to a neighbor's house for dinner. When he returned home around 8.30 p.m. and Amy still wasn't home, he became increasingly

concerned, but he reasoned that she had a busy day and that she might just be home late that night. But when he realized that there were no messages on the machine and after talking to her parents who had also not heard from her, he decided to take a quick drive to regular running spots that she would go to just to see if there was any sign of her. But there wasn't. So he went home. But by 10.30 that night, when there was still no sign of Amy, he called the police and reported her missing.

He told them that Amy did not tell him of her plans to go in a run that day. But he was quoted saying, it would have been like telling me she was going to brush her teeth that day. It was just a given that she would be. He directed them to areas of Shoshone National Forest that she often ran. And he knew that she did have plans at some point to map out the 10-K route as well. Steve reached out to friends hoping that someone had heard of her, but no one had heard from her, not heard of her. Two of their friends, Amy and Todd Skinner, agreed that they would drive into the forest to look for Amy's car.

And Steve stayed home to stay by the phone in case she called or in case she showed up. After several hours of police and his friends searching, her friends found Amy's abandoned white Toyota station wagon on the side of the road close to the entrance of a hiking trail. There was no sign of Amy though. and the police noted that Amy had left her sunglasses, her car keys in the car, and that her wallet was missing. There was no obvious signs of a vehicle break in or any types of evidence of a struggle or someone else being somewhere outside of the car, so they assumed that maybe she was on the trails. They drove the roads and walked the trails for several hours calling out her name, but there was no response from her, and there was no sign of her at all being in the area of anywhere they searched that night.

The following morning, the Fremount County search and rescue team and an unofficial team of 10 of Landers' best climbers and Steve began searching. Even with them combing the forests and the trails, covering over 25 miles of land, there was almost no sign of her at all. There was no indication of a bear or a mountain lion attack, which was something that they were considering was a possibility given the amount of predatory animals that were in the area. Right, yeah. So they were looking for any signs of like shredded clothing, any blood marks, any broken branches, drag marks, anything that would indicate that she was around somewhere. They also were looking for signs that she might have fallen or injured herself. So they were looking off cliff sides.

They were calling her name. And there was just absolutely no trace of her at all. It just seemed that she had just vanished. Helicopters arrived with infrared body sensors and armies of over 100 volunteers arrived to the National Forest. Many of the volunteers were very experienced outdoors people and they had lots of different abilities. They could read topo maps. They could repel into canyons. They could hike. They were in very good shape. They could hike for over 12 hour periods. They were trail runners. These are like the type of people that you want looking for you if you're out in the middle of the woods.

I mean, these people arrived with tents to camp. They arrived with dirt bikes and ATVs so they could cover more ground. And they initiated a really intense search effort for her. For several days, there was still no sign of Amy at all. On the fourth day of searching for Amy, Todd Skinner was scouring a remote canyon when he came across footprints in a cave by a creek. The footprints matched the same Adida shoes that Amy had been wearing, and there was also remnants of a campfire. Todd was so far into the back country when he found this new evidence that it took him seven hours to hike back out to the canyon and alert authorities. Oh shit, so she probably got lost, huh? Turned around or? Well, that was what they were thinking. They're like, she's really made it far out there. They get very excited. He runs back. They all

have this new hope that they're going to find her. And news breaks out that they had found this new evidence. And just as it did, a local boy from the area reported that he had actually recently camped in that same cave. And he had worn Adidas trail runners there. And that the evidence from the campfire was because he had a campfire. Oh, God. Well, at least he came forward, honestly. Like, yeah, that at least could be ruled out and not dwelt upon and totally could have pivoted things in a, I mean, obviously, you already said the disappearance, so, which leads me to believe that this is still not solved, but still. No, this isn't solved.

But yeah, him coming forward and saying that they could have been searching that area and wasting resources. Yeah. And I mean, I'm sure that was a shitty phone call to make to be like, hey, I know you guys are really excited about this right now, but it was me. Yeah, but it was the right thing to do for sure. Yeah, for sure. After six days of nonstop looking for Amy without a single sign of her, the search was officially

called off. Rumors and theories around Lander began to fly, and people had all sorts of thoughts on what happened to Amy. There was no sign of a struggle, so it had to be someone that she knew. Amy's running up there and a car's coming. The driver, drunk probably, and hits her. The driver panics, throws her in the trunk, and he's out of those mountains before you know it. Another person says, the mountains are bigger than you can imagine. Plains have crashed and it's taken over a year to find. You can bet that she's still up there. Whatever the theories in town were that were spreading,

police had their own ideas as well. When a woman is murdered or goes missing, the husband is often the culprit. Even though Steve had been helping in the search, police had never really sat down and had a full interview with him. They asked Steve to come down to the police station for questioning about his marriage and his whereabouts that day. Steve was very quick to say that they had.

a happy marriage and anyone who knew him and Amy would vouch for that. He said that he had an hour by hour alibi for the entire day and would happily answer any of their questions. When he arrived at the station, he did undergo a series of intense questioning, but for every question that they had, he had an answer and he did seem to have an airtight alibi. When the interview ended, several of the FBI agents left the room and then another one entered. His name was Rick McCull. He brought in a file of papers and stared at Steve with a stern expression on his face before he said, I'm a pretty good judge of character. We know you were responsible for your wife's disappearance.

Here's the evidence to prove it before he flung the files at Steve. I don't, you keep looking at me, like, for a reaction and I feel, like, I don't want to say anything because I have a couple of different feelings going on right now. My first thought for that was like, wow, that took a drastic turn. It's like he's talking to police, he's answering questions, and then they're like, okay, interviews over, and then this guy comes in and he's like, we know you did it. Well, it's good cop, bad cop tactic, I feel like my first, first impression. And like while I agree that I hate saying the blanket statement, like it's always the husband,

you know, more often than, it's a saying for a reason, like more often than not. It's someone you have a passionate relationship with. Right, right. But my first, with this particular one, and I don't know, it might be my own personal thoughts, feelings, and emotions coming into play. But my first initial emotion is anger. Like, how fucking dare you? You know, like I am going through the worst imaginable situation right now, like my life partner, my significant other is missing and or probably hurt or God forbid dead and I'm being blamed. Yeah. It's a slippery slope because it's like, did you do it? Or like,

is this the most insulting thing anyone has ever said in this tree? saying things. Exactly. And so that's why I'm like, oh, I don't want to speak too soon. But yeah, that's my initial reaction. But I'll wait. Well, Steve's reaction, he has a reaction to it for sure, because they say, you know, we know you did this. And then he asked him if he wants to prove his innocence, then he'll take a lie detector test. Well, what do the file, I'm sorry, what do the files include? Like, what are those files? I'm not sure because Steve was so taken aback that he didn't even open. him. He was just like, whoa, what is going on here? He was so overwhelmed. He didn't look at it. And instead, he ends the interview right there. He says, I'll take the polygraph tomorrow, but I'm going to get my

lawyer. Okay. Not a bad move. But the following morning, after speaking with his lawyer, his lawyer tells him not to take the polygraph test, and he tells police that he's not going to. Okay. We've talked about this before. And yes, while it could be pretty swaying, it's not admissible in court, a lie detector test. No, it's not. And I remember taking, because I have a degree in psychology, I took a criminal psychology course and we actually did like almost an entire semester on polygraph tests and how polygraph tests are not accurate. And that they're not admissible in court because of that, because you can have emotional reactions to things and not be lying about them. And the test will determine that you're lying even though if you're just having an emotional reaction.

Like I feel like personally, if I was having a lie detector test, someone could be like, is your name Cassandrianian? And I'd be like, yes. And it would be like, that's a lie. Yeah. Well, because it measures physiological things, right? Like heart rate, respirate, things like that. I mean, even just, I mean, this is not the same at all. But, okay, so yesterday and the day before I had two back-to-back doctor's appointments for different things. The first one I was pretty nervous about. And they, so they took my blood pressure for both times. The first one I was pretty nervous about. And, and. my systolic was 129, which is the high end of normal for me. And they're like, oh, it could be because you're in pain or you're nervous or whatever. And then the very next day, I was much more relaxed. And it was 96. It's like, okay, that's more normal. Right. Yeah.

It's such a good point, though. Like, if you're nervous, if you're upset, if you're, like, you can't be expected, especially under a lie detector test. And they do try to combat, like, nervousness to like your regular being, which is why they say like, tell me your name, tell me your mom's name, where were you born, like things that you're probably not going to lie about and things that are really easy to answer. So you get like a baseline of your reactions. But I mean, there's there's literally training on how to cheat a polygraph test. So they're not like for military and stuff. Right. And this is also 97, right? So maybe it's not as,

I don't know. All right. Anyways, we spent enough time. Anyway, he refuses to take the polygraph. And also, sometime between the afternoon he was interviewed by the FBI and the following morning, police received a new eyewitness account from the day that Amy disappeared. An unnamed witness reported to have seen a blue pickup truck speeding a loop road within the same area where another witness had seen her running. Inside the truck, the witness saw a man driving and a distraught blonde woman in the passenger seat who they said resembled Amy. They claimed to have seen the truck right around 5 p.m.

And it just happens that Steve had a truck that matched the same description that the witness gave. Uh-oh. With this new information, the FBI obtained a search warrant for Steve's house and his truck. Inside of the house, they found a series of journals that Steve kept and they found disturbing writings inside. They found poems, song lyrics, and other writings detailing violence against women. At least one of the poems was contemplating murder and how to successfully hide a body. He wrote a lot about power and death, and he had random quotes scattered throughout the journal, one saying, power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.

I don't like that. I'm not looking good, Steve. Oh, fuck, Steve. I was rooting for you for a second. That's why I hate saying anything. I've learned a thing or two in the last two years of this. Oh, and by the way, happy anniversary one day late. That we're recording this.

This is coming out like a mark after our anniversary. But thank you. Yeah. Happy anniversary to you too. Oh, thank you. But anyway, yeah. See, that's why I don't. I'm trying to hold my tongue, but.

Yeah. And there's a lot of investigating going on here. But right after this comes out, Amy's family comes forward, and they told a different story of their supposed happy marriage to police. They said they had been concerned for Amy because when Steve was around, she didn't seem like the happy and carefree person that she normally was. that Steve seemed very controlling. Although Amy never mentioned this to any family or friends,

her brother noted that he had seen significant bruises on her arm from a few weeks prior while he was visiting for dinner. When he asked Amy what happened, Amy reportedly laughed it off and said that Steve got a little rough sometimes, but the way she said it made her brother feel really uneasy, and he noted that she wouldn't look at him while she said it. Yeah, red flags. Red flags.

Police again, after finding out this new information, asked Steve to come in for polygraph tests, but he refused. He stated that his lawyer advised him not to and that polygraph tests were historically often inaccurate. He insisted his innocence and stated that his journal entries had absolutely nothing to do with Amy. He even came forward to say if police had not blatantly told him that they thought it was him, and he didn't feel like they had already made up their mind with very little evidence pointing to him, He probably wouldn't have even questioned the polygraph test, and he probably would have just taken it. But now he was nervous. Amy's parents begged him to take the polygraph test as well to prove his innocence, but he still didn't budge.

Shortly after this information came out, phone records were obtained. It showed that at 4.43 p.m., just 15 minutes before the blue truck was reported seen in Shoshone National Forest, Steve had been on the phone with a friend on his landline at his house. Their apartment was 45 minutes away from where that truck had been seen, which gave him an alibi for that time frame. Plus, for almost the entire day, he had been rock climbing with a friend who did verify that they were together. But even with this, there was almost a two-hour time period where Steve was not seen by anyone and where he had claimed to have gone looking for her. Others speculated that it might have been possible that he did something to her during that very short time frame. I again, I understand that, but at the same time, it's like there's a two-hour time frame that

no one saw him. There's like a 10-hour time frame every day where no one sees me. Do you know what I mean? I could be doing God knows what over here, but I'm just watching Netflix. Do you know what I mean, though? It's like, it's hard to kind of like point to that as like, I know it's obviously in, it's combined with other things, you know, that's like pointing to, you know, We're concerned. And now there's this where you haven't been seen for two hours. So like what the hell was up with that? But just that base value of like, well, there's two hours that someone hasn't been seen or

accounted for. Wasn't with another person or on the phone with someone. Right. You know, that's like, that's kind of a stretch to just be like, okay, well, then explain this. It's like, okay. And if you think about it, the two hour time period, it's 45 minutes to get to where Amy was. So it would be 45 minutes there and 45 minutes back.

which like it's not impossible that he didn't do anything to Amy in that period because he would have half an hour to do it. But that's really not much time. So to not only do something to her, but then hide her. It just, okay, go on. It's weird. Yeah. But I will say not stoked about his journal. Yeah, no, not stoked about that.

His journal is scary. Not stoked about Steve as a person, but not stoked on the evidence they have against him either. And ultimately, police did decide that they did not have enough evidence that Steve had anything to do with Amy's disappearance, especially from his almost airtight alibi. They were not able to press any charges against him. In attempts to keep Amy's story in the public eye, friends and family put together a $50,000 reward for any tips leading to Amy's whereabouts. Posters and flyers were spread across town and even across states. Steve continued to work diligently to try and find Amy. He put together a loop road hill road hill race to raise money for awareness to help find Amy. On September 27th, around a 150 runner showed up where Steve encouraged everyone to keep searching and distributing flyers wherever they could to help find her. But not everyone was thrilled that he was the one setting this up. And people who had originally intended to run this race to help raise money for Amy backed out when they found out Steve was behind it.

Many people in town thought that Steve was behind it and they didn't forget that he didn't want to take a polygraph test. And they feared that this money was going to be used to buy himself an expensive lawyer and not to find Amy. Well, that's also something to consider. Like, we're going to find more evidence and you're going to need a lawyer and you're going to use our money for this. And so people, people weren't thrilled about it and other people were very supportive. But Steve wasn't giving up the search for Amy. Even when people told him that she was most likely not alive. He was quoted saying in Runner's World magazine, I know people will look at the odds against her being alive, look at the complete lack of clues, and say it's impossible that she'll ever come back, but people said it was

impossible for her to become the runner that she is. Amy proved them wrong once, she'll just have to prove them wrong again. Around the same time, another suspect was identified. Several months prior, police had received a tip from a potentially dangerous man who was living in the area. A man named Richard Eaton had called police asking that they look into his brother, who was living in the area and happened to frequent the area to go hunting and fishing that Amy was last seen in. His brother, you might recognize his name. His brother was Dale Wayne Eaton, a man who several years was convicted of a woman's murder in Wyoming and is a convicted serial killer. Oh, okay. Police were so focused on Steve being the suspect that they never looked into that lead.

But on September 12, 1997, just a couple months after Amy disappeared, in an area less than three hours from Lander, Wyoming, Dale attempted to kidnap and murder Shannon Breeder, her husband Scott, and their five-month-old baby. Holy shit. He had kidnapped them at gunpoint in their car, and after an altercation, the family was able to escape after stabbing Dale with his own knife. Dale's brother reported that he knew he had been backcountry camping

in the same location that Amy would have been running. on the trail of the 10K that she was planning for. When police asked Dale of his involvement in Amy's disappearance, he was adamant that he had nothing to do with it. And with no evidence at all linking him to her, no charges were filed. And at this point, he's not a convicted serial killer. So this was before. Yeah.

So at this point, he's just found to have kidnapped and tried to murder someone. They don't know all the other stuff he's done yet. Right, exactly. So it's like, all right, well, he hadn't been caught yet. doesn't mean that he was not doing that. Steve spent the next several months searching for Amy and started the Amy Rote Vegetal Recovery Headquarters where he mailed over 200,000 posters around the nation.

And he was quoted in Runner's World magazine saying, my fondest hope right now is that Amy left me. I'd love nothing better than to find out my wife ran off with somebody else. The next best thing would be if she were being held captive. Because if an abductor doesn't kill his victim right away, he tends to develop a relationship with her. The more time goes by, the better he gets to know her, the less likely he is to kill her. I don't know about you, but I thought that that was so creepy.

Okay, it is creepy. Like, that is so creepy. But it's true. It is, like, I understand what he's saying, though. And it just comes off fucking weird. Shady Steve, like, stop it. Shady Steve. Stop, like, talking.

Do not talk. Stop writing. Stop talking. Stop writing. Stop talking. Just make your posters and leave it at that. Like you can't. And this is why.

It's like I have such mixed emotions. It's like he is doing all that he can with all the scrutiny surrounding. Like you got to give him props to like even us right now. We're like shitting on him. Like we're scrutinizing him. And that was actively happening 10fold when this was actually unfolding. Mm-hmm. And happening.

Yet he was still like, I don't care what you say or think about me. Like I'm still going to try and find my wife. Yeah. So, yeah. It's just, it's so hard because it's like, okay, we're all, like, I'm sorry for saying these bad things about you if you didn't do it. But if you did do it, then, like, you're horrible. But just saying, I don't know, something just is so icky about, like, what he said.

I don't know. I'd never be like, I hope that she was kidnapped and her abuser has fallen in love with her. And she's just living day in and day out being abused and kidnapped. Like, that's just a really odd thing, I think, to say. And it just like just keeps putting bad taste in your mouth about Steve. It is. But at the same time, like to play devil's advocate, people do and say very odd things during times of trauma.

And like this could be a compartmentalized train of thought, like way of thinking about it. You know what I mean? Like at least for me, and all I can do is draw on personal experience. But like I remember when I received Ian's autopsy report, I was very, like, I was very, like, I was reading it like I read a necropsy report at work of like, okay, this is physiologically what happened. I understand this, this and this. And I remember having to like explain certain things to certain people who didn't really understand like the medical jargon of what that report said. And I was like, obviously it was hard.

But in the moment, it was kind of just like robotic. And then as soon as that was over and I was like, wow, I am reading about like the love of my life. then it was like, I can't even look at it. Like, I haven't looked at it since. And I'm like, I can't even really think about it without getting upset. But in that moment, it was a very, I was compartmentalizing. Yeah, that's a good point. You know what I mean?

It's just like, it was like a survival tactic for me to like, because half of me, my logical scientific side, I want to understand what happened. And the other half of me, the emotional half of me was like, I can't even fucking deal with that. And in the moment, I was very distinctly to people. And then as soon as we was over, I was like a wreck and still am. But like in brief moments like that for him to explain like, look, this is best case scenario to worst case scenario. A, B and C.

Like I can understand that. But to other people who have not been in that position, you look at that and are like, how in the fucking world can you do that? Like, how are you not upset? Can you say that? You know what I mean? Like it's just a different perspective to consider. For sure.

And I guess when you do like, look at it that way too. It's also by saying that is kind of keeping a small bit of hope that she's alive somewhere. A thousand percent. It's like does something to your like spirit, like your hope of internally, even if it's like my rational brain is like at this point like there's a pretty good chance that she's not okay. But yeah, if she is okay, this is like the best case scenario. even if it sounds weird to say out loud. Yeah. And maybe that's just what it was, is it just sounds very weird to say out loud and it's like a weird comment.

It's just I totally see what you're saying. And then on the other half, I'm like, his journals. Just keep going to the violence against women and his journals. And then to detail, you know, like I think just because we don't personally know Steve or really his full story, it's hard to be swayed either direction. And all of those things in it of themselves, like, aren't. aren't damning enough, obviously. But all together, it's just, it is a little strange, huh?

And meanwhile, while all of this is still happening, Amy's family is still begging Steve to take a polygraph. They even went on a popular TV talk show that at the time had millions of viewers. It was called the Geraldo Rivera show. And they publicly begged him to take a

polygraph on that show. They were quoted saying, that doesn't mean we think he did it. That doesn't mean I'm accusing him of everything. But if anyone is holding up the progress of this investigation, it's Steve. Because they felt that because he still hadn't done that, the police were still kind of have an eye on in there. They're like, we don't have evidence, but we think it's you. So their point of view was like, just take the polygraph and, and prove that it wasn't. No future developments did happen in the case, but in 2003,

Dale Eaton was found guilty of murder of an 18-year-old girl Lisa Marie Kimmel. He had kidnapped, raped and murdered her in 1988, so before this had all happened with Amy, and police had finally found DNA evidence linking him to her. Her body was found only a few hours away in Wyoming where Amy had disappeared. Dale is also linked to three other women who were murdered in Wyoming in the early 1980s. Dale was given the death sentence, which was later amended due to mental health reasons, and he's now serving life in prison without the possibility of getting out. After the death sentence was taken off the table, investigators attempted to talk to Dale again in regards to Amy, but he refused to talk to them entirely. He has had several strokes now and has some diminished brain function,

and he uses a wheelchair, but he will be in prison until the day he dies. The whereabouts of Amy and what happened to her that day is still a mystery and remains unsolved, but there are investigators to this day that still have Steve as their prime suspect. Despite everything with, what's his name, Daryl? Daryl. Dale Eaton. Dale. I keep, you know who I'm thinking of? Daryl David Rice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's not like they didn't look into it and there's only so much you can do if there's no physical evidence linking this guy and he's also not admitting to it or confessing to it or claiming any involvement at all. You know, there's only so much you can do with that. Yeah. Yeah, there's no evidence. But I mean, I do think the serial killer

seems like a kind of legitimate. I mean, he's in the air. area, it's within the time frame that he's committing crimes. He has a really violent past. He's done like, you know, it's just, I feel like he seems a little bit more of a viable suspect than Steve. Yeah, because Steve doesn't have, he doesn't have a history. He doesn't have a criminal history. There's no, even though her brother saw bruises on her, and she did say it was from Steve, she said they were roughing around. Like there was no other reports of him being physically abusive or anything like that, too. And the time frame, like unless someone in his alibi is lying for him. Right.

He does have a pretty tight alibi. So it's just, there's a lot, I guess. There's so much information and so little at the same time regarding her disappearance. One other thing that I did want to say is one part of the investigation that they did do that I forgot to mention earlier was they actually requested satellite photos from NASA back in August of 1997 on the day of Amy's disappearance. to see if there were any satellite images that would prove anything or show something, which I think is really, I've never heard of.

Maybe it's something they do all the time with NASA, and I just don't know. But it's like, oh, that's really interesting. And they obtained the images. But that day, there was so much cloud cover over the area that she was in that there was nothing that they could see. Bummer. Yeah. So for in terms of Amy's disappearance, it is still unknown. Her family is still looking for answers.

and what has happened to her, there's never been any evidence that has been found from her. There has been a couple little trinkets that have been found in the woods that people believe may or may not have been associated with her, but they really can't tell. So it's still up in the air of whether it was Steve, whether it was a serial killer, whether she just fell somewhere out on the trail and was not found because she was injured. or it's still possible that there's 125 grizzly bears out there and there's mountain lions out there there and there's cougars out there. Well, mountain lions and cougars. But there's there's Wolverines. There's just like there's so much.

There's black bears out there. You know, there's so much that could have happened to her that every possibility is still open. While some investigators do think that Steve was part of it and some really believe that Dale Eaton was behind it. There's also environmental factors that could have been the cause as well. God, yeah. It's just so open-ended. That's the thing. Because while some options are less likely, you know, like I don't really lean towards, like, yes, a predatory attack by one of those animals is certainly possible. I just don't see how with that big of a search effort for so long, there should have been something. Something to show up. A piece of clothing. Her key. Could you say her?

wallet she had her what was missing her wallet her wallet was missing right like her wallet or like something and i know like obviously that's also a needle in a haystack because you're not even sure of like the specific area to be looking for a particular something and like the trinkets that were found like you said in the beginning how many people visit this national forest yeah 500 000 it's crazy so yeah unfortunately i think that unless something happens something has something comes forward or there's some sort of DNA evidence that links someone to her disappearance and or murder if that is in fact what happened. I just really don't think it'll ever be solved, which is so unfortunate because for her

family, it's like that lack of, and I hate to say closure because I still don't think even if they were like tomorrow, there's a huge break in the case. They find her or they find her remains or someone comes forward and admits to something. still doesn't heal that hole in your heart. There is no closure, but there's definitely answers, and that can help facilitate some sort of healing process. And to not have that is just really difficult. And my heart goes out to them. Yeah. And I think that having answers would be, I think it would bring, it wouldn't bring so much as comfort, but it would bring some closure in the aspect of just having those answers and knowing what exactly occurred that day.

So I hope that someone comes forward. I mean, 1997 wasn't all that long ago. There are lots of many people. I mean, we were alive in the 1970s. So, or 1990s. Not the 1970s. We've been talking for a long time. We, there are still so many people who are alive and in that area. Like, if you happen to be one of them who saw something, if you saw her white station wagon, if you can remember anything, if you were there July 24th, 1997, and you can. think of anything. It's certainly worth telling police because they don't have anything right now. And you know, you never know. Something could come forward years later. There have been cases. I mean, recently we've seen cases be solved mostly from DNA evidence. But, you know, it's not impossible. It's just less likely as things go on further and further. But yeah, I hope she finds closure. Do you know what happened to Steve, like, is Steve, like, excommunicated from that family or like what? well Steve actually remarried um not too long after she disappeared i think it was like two years after she disappeared okay he remarried and he has two children and he is still living in that area i think

i'm pretty sure he still lives in that same area as well okay i mean god it's just like sad all around for everyone involved you know it's just yeah unless he did it then sorry otherwise sorry steve Otherwise, sorry, but, you know, got to look at everything. I don't know. He's got some weird stuff going on. Then there's obviously a serial killer who's got a lot of going on and looks good for anything sketchy in that area too. So who knows.

Yeah. Well, all right. I guess that's that on that. Yeah. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. This is finally a true crime-ish episode that we did this week. We will see you next time. But in the meantime, enjoy the view.

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