Next Level Pros - #135: "You can't master selling by reading books" Mastering Tonality

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Welcome to a new episode of Next Level Pros! In this episode, we have the opportunity to interview Jeremy Miner, an incredible businessman and sales training expert. Jeremy shares his journey from door-to-door sales to earning multiple seven-figure commissions, highlighting the pivotal role of tonality in his success. He also touches on the challenges of scaling a business, the importance of hiring for strengths, and the potential of a new recruiting and staffing division.  Apply to be on the show: https://forms.gle/hwDijQPFyKCEtHNs8  Highlights: "I think most sales people don't really understand the psychology behind how the brain actually makes decisions." "The biggest factor that took me from the jump between door to door to more B to B high level was mastering tonality." "I don't use selling as something that you do to someone. I believe it's something you do for someone."  "Everybody has a chip, just most people don't activate it."  Timestamps: 00:00 - The Importance of Understanding Sales Psychology 02:36 - Jeremy Miner's Background and Achievements 05:29 - Scaling a Business and Management Structure 07:49 - The Future Vision and Business Expansion 09:41 - The Meaning Behind Seventh Level 11:41 - Sales Opportunities and Skill Levels 14:16 - Mastering Tonality and Sales Techniques 18:19 - Jeremy's Sales Journey and Achievements 23:04 - The Role of Tonality in Sales 35:37 - Personal Motivations and Overcoming Challenges 40:44 - The Power of Activating Personal Chips Want me to teach you how to grow your business? Text me! 509-374-7554 Want access to more of my content? Click the link below for all of our latest updates and events! https://linktr.ee/nextlevelpros Want to be a guest on our show? Apply here!https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YlkVBSluEKMTg4gehyUOHYvBratcxHV5rt3kiWTXNC4/viewform?edit_requested=true Watch my latest Podcast Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/next-level-pros/id1687030281 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1e0cL2vI1JAtQrojSOA7D2?si=95980cd4e55a437a YouTube- https://www.youtube.com/@NextLevelPros

What do you see as like the most like three important things that somebody's got to master? I think most salespeople, they don't really understand the psychology behind how the brain actually makes decisions. Me being a behavioral science and human psychology, like I geeked out on the stuff at university and I studied it like a mofo. With any personality, I'm focused on how do I disarm the prospect where they let their guard down? How do I disarm them where they start to emotionally open up? And a lot of it is just strictly their tonality. So tonality and obviously even the structure of the question, right? Yeah, I was still learning skills all the time.

And the biggest factor that took me from the jump between door to door to more B2B high level was mastering tonality. Hey guys, in today's episode, we're going to be interviewing Jeremy Miner. Jeremy, as you guys are going to come to find out is an absolute stud when it comes to sales training in this episode, we dive into the psychology of sales, what it is to really understand tonality. This is something that isn't being taught by any other sales trainer out there. You're going to absolutely love this episode.

Let's dive in. What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Next Level Pros podcast. Today, I have the opportunity to be here in beautiful Scottsdale, Arizona, with a friend, associate, but more importantly, an incredible businessman, Mr. Jeremy Minor. So a lot of you guys have seen him

across different social media channels. He is most well known for training in the sales space, which for me is incredible, because I absolutely love the sales aspect of any business. That's where I always just had my fingers on the heartbeat of any business. Jeremy, during his 17 year career, he was recognized in the direct selling industry as the 45th highest earning producer out of more than 108 million salespeople selling anything worldwide.

That's pretty phenomenal. Jeremy's earnings as a commission only sales rep were multiple seven figures every year. That was after alarms. After alarms. Yeah that wasn't happening in the door-to-door space back in the day I'll tell you. So he is a he owns a company called Seventh Level. They were ranked as the largest B2C sales training company in the world the largest B2C sales training company in the world and the third overall largest sales training company in the world for B2C and B2B combined

by the prestigious Selling Power Magazine. I know you've gotten several different awards. Not grandmas, just on annual revenues. I love it, I love it. And I know you've gotten several different awards. You've been in the Inc 500, 5,000. What's the highest ranking on that? I think the, we didn't turn it in last year,

but the year before I think we were 132nd or something. I know you were like number six. We were 12th on Inc. 12th on the Inc, six. Yeah. Him and I thought we were doing good, 132th, 12th. You know, the funny thing is the year that we got 12, we would have been fourth the previous year

for the same growth. Yeah. And we were six for financial times, is what, because financial times threw out like a few of the guys that were like acquired and stuff like that. Hey guys, it's Chris. Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help.

Do me a real quick favor. Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554. That's 509-374-7554. Shoot me a text. I'll answer and help you with whatever you need. Don't worry. I got you back. Let's go back to the show, baby. Oh, and we submitted financials in 2021 and 2022, and we thought it was really cool until one day we literally lost a big b2b deal because they looked at that as like oh you guys are going too fast and it started thinking like oh I thought like us growing so fast companies would be like they must be doing something really good but in

larger corporations that's a little bit of a risk because as you know sometimes you grow too fast right you go out of business because you don't know how to run the business. So in 2023, we're like, we're not submitting to E5,000. We don't care about the fast thing anymore. It's interesting, right? Never thought about it. Yeah, interesting. It was a pretty big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So guys, I'm excited to have Jeremy on the pod.

Welcome to the show. It's, you know, I'm a big fan of your work. Love. We actually have a sales guy that works with us that just loves, he puts you on the highest pedestal. It's like, God, Jeremy Miner. Oh my gosh. We've got to figure out what course he's in. That's good for him. I know he did your NLPQ. Oh, yeah Yeah, a while a while back and yeah, and so he utilizes a lot of your strategies and stuff So yeah, so so Jeremy you've been building this incredible business in the sales space Which I would say I mean for the amount of revenue and the amount of poise like is very impressive Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I'm just the I'm just the founder, you know, I don't run the business anymore. I wouldn't have I wouldn't say like, you know, just me interviewing

you guys on the show. I'm like, Okay, these guys have different skills than than I would have. Right. So, you know, do I know how to scale a company to, you know, 100 million or 500 million? No, I've never done that. Right. Do I know how to train salespeople to sell more? Do I know how to recruit top talent? Do I know do those things? Yes to sell more? Do I know how to recruit top talent? Do I know how to do those things? Yes. So it's like you said, it's about bringing in the right people

where you're weak in and hiring them for their strengths, right? Or making them your partner for their strengths. And that really causes you to grow. That's interesting. So what would you say? So obviously you're more centered on the sales side, but from a business standpoint, like what are some of the bottlenecks that you're working on and you're hoping to on the sales side. But from a business standpoint,

what are some of the bottlenecks that you're working on and you're hoping to get you to the next level? I think we're at a level where it's like in revenue, and I still compare my, I always compare myself to Vivint. So I always still feel like a small ant. Like, oh, 160 employees, so tiny compared to the space that we came from. You know what I'm saying? So, but for our industry, that's big. to the space that we came from, you know what I'm saying?

So, but for our industry, that's big. The biggest thing that we're working on is as we're scaling, you know, we're bringing in department heads. And sometimes, you know, you'll have some department heads that you fully trust. Yeah, every decision, it's almost like every decision they make is just gold, it's money and it works. Then you have some other department heads where maybe they got into that position and they weren't as qualified in that position and some of the decisions set you back a little bit. So it's finding that balance between still being able to run the business and scale

and take a little bit of risk compared to being so corporate that you just don't take any risk and it's more slow growth. So it's finding that balance right now. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, obviously you have the department heads in place, like what is the rest of your management structure look like?

Are you, where are you fitting in? Are you off to the side? So I'm the founder of the majority shareholder. We have a CEO, right? Nice. Our business partner. We have CFO, obviously we have a managing director, senior vice president, COO.

We have the C-level executives, and then below them, in some we have a VP or director of those, like director of fulfillment. Above them would be the vice president of fulfillment. Same thing, it's basically, we have a CRO. So do you still consider yourself like the visionary that you're helping like drive the vision and direction of the business?

I would still be the vision. I would still, yeah, I mean, I'm the face, I'm the visionary of the company. And your CEO is more the integrator. More the integrator, yeah. More the integrator, the business guy that handles that kind of stuff. So when you have an idea, they're gonna go punch numbers with the Cator. Yeah, more of the integrator, the business guy that handles that kind of stuff. So when you have an idea, you know, they're going to go punch numbers with the

CFO. Does it, you know, sounds like a great idea, but you know, we punch the numbers like maybe it's not so profitable for that. So you have to have that. So like, you know, when you first started, you're like, Hey, I've got these great ideas. You're the visionary. Let's just go spend, spend, spend. But then you don't realize like, Oh, it's not so profitable what I just did. So what does this business look like in five, 10 years? Like where do you, where are you trying to land? So when I started seventh level, I knew we would never be just sales training. Now on the front end will always be sales training because that's what we're known at. That's where we've

gotten some, so much results. On the back end though, we have the assets now. So in the third quarter of 2025, we are now going to have a division that's a recruiting staffing agency on the company side. Because we probably, you know, we have a big Facebook group, Sales Revolution, about 160,000 people going every day. And we probably have, I'm not exaggerating, probably close to a hundred employers a day that try to post in there like, hey, looking for 10 reps for a medical device, looking for, could be solar, whatever. And so they come to us like literally offering to pay us for like certified reps in our training programs for their industries. And we just don't have an infrastructure to even offer that yet. We have an email list of over a million salespeople. Yeah, so a done for you agency

from a recruiting standpoint is no-brainer. It's not like we have to start doing COVID. And staffing and recruiting, that's a huge industry we already train in. So we already understand that space, like the background, we train tons of companies in that. So it's just kind of a natural fit to have that back-end model, kind of like a grant in that. So it's just kind of a natural fit to have that back end model,

kind of like a grant card on has sales training, but then real estate. My buddy, Pace Morby, you know, selling coaching, how to do real estate. But then on the back end, every every client brings him deals and they split them 50 50, you know, so it's that back end revenue. So we had just you know, we've created the assets for that the last five years. And now we're bringing the right people to run that. It's exciting. So seventh level, we're just, you know, we've created the assets for that the last five years, and now we're bringing the right people to run that. That's exciting. So seventh level, what's, what's the meaning of seventh level? You know, it's interesting. I've only had a few people ever asked me that. So, so I went to UVU,

Utah Valley University, and my major is behavioral science, human psychology, but I minored in world religions. And so in every world religion, you'm elvish like you guys, every world religion. So I'm talking about, I'm not talking about religion now, I'm talking about like ancient Christianity. So maybe from 30 AD to maybe 350 AD. I'm talking about Islam at the beginning. I'm talking about even Buddhism, I'm talking Hinduism. I'm talking about even religions in Mesopotamia.

They had this one core belief that pretty much, it was a universal belief that there were different levels of heaven. They're not like one heaven and hell, like a lot of religions we have now. And at the highest level, the seventh level, like look at that, it's crazy. God dwells in the seventh level.

And to attain that level, you had to be perfected like God. You had to overcome the world, you know, do those type of things. And so that's where I came up with the concept, seventh level of communication, perfecting your communication skills. We're gonna have to have a separate conversation about religion off camera,

because I have some very interesting beliefs that probably differ a little bit from exactly, you know, the way I was raised. I'm an active member of the LDS faith. But yeah, it is interesting when you go and you study these world religions and really able to identify different truths that come from different... Yeah, I think every religion has a lot of truth in it for sure, mixed in with some man-made

stuff including our own faith. You know, a little bit of manmade stuff here and there too. So I'm all about talking about, I believe in some crazy things too that might be outside the norm, but I think that's good. And whether they're right or not, I guess we'll find out. At the end of the day, you know, we'll all find out. Yeah, yeah, happy to talk with you.

Like I said, a little bit more offline. It might not be very entertaining for the group, but. Yeah, I know. I've got a question for you. So look at the industry, the sales industry. What businesses are needing salespeople the most? And then as a salesperson, what are the best opportunities you see if you're looking for a good opportunity? This is a hard one for me because we, I mean, we're in every vertical at this point in the subcategories. Like Tommy's vertical, like home improvement, home services.

You got garages, doors, windows, carpet, countertops, everything. And that's a huge industry where we see a ton of our clients like crush it, right? And you would even think like, you know, oh, cabinet sales persons making 500 grand a year, but there are a lot of people out there that do that. Solar is a huge opportunity.

It's a big space we train in. Life insurance, huge. Whereas a lot of life insurance agents might suck and don't make any money. We're like, well, the industry is doing trillions of dollars a year. So it's based on their skill level. Right. Whereas door to door is a huge opportunity. You might have a

lot of people that don't do well at it, but still huge industry. So what's different skill level for sure medical device sales. I mean, I could keep going on it's it's it's such a it's a hard one to answer because most of it, unless you're selling $10 magazine per subscription, door to door, is based on really, your earnings are gonna be based on your skill level. Yeah.

So would you say there's like a ticket size that if you have a ticket size of at least this, there's a level where you'll make- I see a lot of truth to that also, but I could sell, I've got, you know, we have life insurance reps in our training program that do over seven figures a year in commissions. Wow, that's incredible. You're selling $150 a month life insurance. So are these guys just figuring out how to get to one to many versus a one on one type sale? A lot of it is just one to one and then maybe they start building

out teams and we teach them how to recruit and they get overrides as well. So it's such a hard one because then you know, we have solar salespeople. As you know, you might have a solar salesperson that can't sell anything and then you got a guy come in that makes 1.5 million commissions next year. Is it the industry or is it the skill level? Sometimes it's a little bit of both. But I think higher ticket stuff on average is a better opportunity. You just have to have a higher skill level

to be able to sell it. You know, it's different than going from like pest control to solar, you have to have a higher sales ability. Yeah, $500 revenue or ticket value versus 48,000. Exactly. It's a little bit different. So I would say higher ticket, I don't want to give a straight jacket interpretation

of that because I see life insurance and others, but I would say higher tickets is going to be a better opportunity in most industries. So when you talk about skill level, what do you see as the most three important things that somebody's got to master? I think most salespeople, they don't really understand the psychology behind how the brain actually makes decisions. So me being in behavioral science and human psychology, like I geeked out on the stuff at university

and I studied it like a mofo. So when I first started in door to door, you guys did, and when I knock on a door, if they slammed the door said no, most reps in door to door would be like, oh, you know, this neighborhood's bad, or they're all broke, or they have a bad mindset. But I was thinking like, oh, you know, this neighborhood's bad, or they're all broke, or they have a bad mindset. But I was thinking like, oh, like I said,

what did I say, or what did I do there that triggered them to react that way, right? Because I wanted to get inside their mind, right? Because I figured if I can learn what triggers somebody to say no, or what triggers I wanna think it over, or what triggers I need to talk to my spouse. And if I could learn how to like get rid of that out of their mind, by default, I'm just going to sell more.

So I always focused on like, how do I prevent these objections from happening rather than like, how do I handle them? Because if I did get an objection, I'm like, oh, I did something wrong upstream that triggered them to think this way. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I sure you know, it's like Tom Brady, right? It's like in the NFL, the more interceptions you throw, the more fumbles you lose, less likely you win the game. So I always looked at sales the same way, like the less mistakes I make, right? I'm unlikely to lose the sale.

The more mistakes I make, I'm likely to not get the sale. So I just, I thought about selling differently. So I think the first thing is understanding the psychology behind why a person buys or doesn't buy. Would you say that has to do with like, so what I teach is like the four different type of buyers, like the buying personalities, right? You have aggressive and social and different,

like do you think that is that? I think there's a lot of truth in that. I focus more on like with any personality, I'm focused on how do I disarm the prospect where they left their guard down? Because if, and that's with any person, especially with an A type, right? Because you know, they touch, sort of bowl you over. So like, how do I disarm them where they start to emotionally open up? And a lot of it is just strictly your tonality. So like, let's say the prospect would be like, yeah, come on in or whatever.

And I literally would do this all the time. I'd be like, now hold on, hold on. Before I come in, like, you're not gonna get mad at me if I can't end up helping you, are you? Oh God, we would never get mad at you. See how I'm triggering them to like pull me in because I'm using like this concern like tone, right? And they're like, oh god, I would never. Or I'd be like, now hold on, you're not going to

get angry if I don't take off my shoes. Like I don't want to feel, oh we would never get angry. So I'm just triggering them to like come to my side and pull me in. So by the time I get to anything, they're just already bought it. So a lot of it is your tonality. So tonality and obviously the even the structure of the question, right? Yeah. Hey guys, it's Chris. Hey, a lot of it is your tonality. So tonality and obviously even the structure of the question, right? Yeah. Hey guys, it's Chris. Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help. Do me a real quick favor.

Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554. That's 509-374-7554. Shoot me a text. I'll answer and help you with whatever you need. Don't worry. I got you back. Let's go back to the show, baby. And it's not even because we, you know, when we train in EPQ,

you know, how to ask these questions, we see a lot of new clients where they come in and they're like, I've just got to ask these questions on my script. I've got to memorize these canned lines. And like, that's good. You need a script, but you need to understand how to be flexible with set script, because you have to learn like once you understand like, okay, I need to ask, let's say we call them connection questions to take the prospect out of price

or cost based thinking, immediately start to get into results based thinking, and I also need to get them to let their guard down. So what if the prospect tells me something different from my first question? Do I need to ask this next question there? Not necessarily, because then it sounds almost like I'm scripted, like I didn't really listen to what they just said, right? So that you have to learn how to take what the prospect says

and be able to tweak your next question and tie in what they just said to that question. And if you don't understand the psychology behind where you're at in that sales process, you're just gonna sound scripted, monotone like a salesperson, and then their guard is up and they stay surface level. So as a salesperson, when was your biggest jump or what was your biggest jump in commissions? Like from one year over the other?

Yeah, so my best summer doing alarms, I managed an office, okay, we did, I think we did a couple thousand accounts, which back in the day that was like, That was crazy. I think we were the second office in any company to ever done a couple thousand, and that was with less than 20 guys.

So it was like 16 guys at the end. But the average guy was doing 150, 180. That's wild. Yeah, it's good because I just train them all the time. I go door to door. And I, myself as a manager, I installed three manager, I installed 380 some accounts that summer myself, like installs. But summer, that was my best. Now that was back, I don't know what you guys were getting paid, but that was me negotiating. You're probably making $350, $400 a deal.

$480 a deal. And then when I got with Apex, which later became Vivbitt, when me and Jared like half of Sarah Pinnacle, half of the company with us over to Bibbitt, I think we had to sign an NDA probably out of the NDA by now. It was like 650 a deal. And we were just like, Oh, I got rich 650 a deal. This is crazy. It was like 80 or $100 in override. I don't know what they get paid now. Right. But so that was a jump. But then I just got you know, Jared ended up staying as a regional manager, I just wanted to get out because I was tired of I had three kids at the time. I was

like moving around every summer. I'm just like, dude, like I've got these skills, I need to go do something else. And you went and did what? I got into b2b enterprise. So I started selling debt relief services. So now I went from door to door, selling to consumers, right for what, 50 bucks a month or whatever, just for a three or five year contract. Same day installs, to then I have to go learn how to cold call to companies, some, you know,

some fortune 1000, but primarily more SMB, okay? Like companies that were doing anywhere from, let's say 20 million on the low end to maybe a couple hundred to 300 million a year on the top. Some larger numbers, but mainly that. So, you know, getting them out of debt and stuff like that, cold call. So these were much bigger deals, longer sales cycles. So I had to learn, but the same concepts were the cases door to door. How do I interrupt their pattern on a cold call rather than the door? So I just, you know, I did learn that. Okay. And then that next year I made close to 800 grand in commissions.

You made 800 grand and then you got up to like multiple seven figures. Yeah. Then the next year I went to like 1.3 million a year. Then I went to like 2 million a year. So what was like the biggest thing that bridged you from 800 grand to 200 million or 2 million? Like what, I mean, as a single sales rep, were you managing teams at this time and getting overrides? Okay, so I didn't want to get into management, right? Because it made way less. Right. So, so what like help identify what got you there? I would say just, I was still learning skills all the time. And the biggest factor that that took me from the jump between door to door to more B2B high level was mastering tonality.

Like, not kidding. And it sounds simple, because sales people always come to us like, what's the best closing line? How do I close them? I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nobody makes a buying decision when you use some option clothes at the end.

You wanna install Tuesday? That's not when they decide to buy. If they say Tuesday, that means they already decided to buy before you ask that question. It's not like that caused them to buy. Right. So I had to, I really, cause it's not really taught in door to door. Right. So when I was in door to door, though, I started, I hired an acting coach in Hollywood and in the off season,

I would literally fly out there every other weekend and spend a Saturday, I paid this guy a lot of money to teach me tonality. So we focus on the five core tonalities. There's a curious tone, there's a confused tone, right? Like you're not understanding something so you draw them in, in certain contexts. You have a confused tone, right? Like you're not understanding something, so you draw them in, in certain contexts.

You have a challenging tone. Once you build a gap, you build trust, you're not gonna challenge somebody at the very beginning. Then you have a concerned tone, a tone that shows more empathy, right? And then you have a playful tone, right? Now there's subcategories of all this tone. There's like the familiar tone when you cold call.

So I had to learn like how to become familiar, right? So the prospect and B2B, and it's fun like, you know, XYZ, you know, company, this is John or whatever. Like, yeah, hey John, it's Jeremy, Jeremy Miner with XYZ company. And I kept going. And what does that do in their brain?

Like who's- Wait, how do I know this guy? Yes, cause I sound familiar, right? It's like, if somebody calls you, you're like, it's Amy, Amy Smith. How are you, Dar guy? Yes, because I sound familiar. Yep. It's like if somebody calls you, you're like, it's Amy, Amy Smith, how are you, Darrell? And you're like, I'm great, how are you? Versus like, hey, is Darrell, is this Darrell?

Yeah, Darrell, this is Jeremy with XYZ Company. The reason why I called you is, so it's a pattern rupt. So I had to, the principle was there. So, but I had to learn more tonality, like the familiar tongue. And so you attribute this to this acting coach. Was there anybody else that taught you tonality along the way?

I just kept learning tonality from just different people. You don't learn tonality in books. The biggest fault that salespeople, the biggest thing that stops them is they think they're going to master sales by reading books. And we've got a couple, you know, we've got Barnes & Noble bestseller books, but I always tell them like, look, a book is an introduction.

It's an introduction. You can't master selling by reading books because they're just words. And you know why you can't master? I'll give you an example. This is really clear. What's your favorite song that if I said, sing that song, you could almost sing it word for word. Like literally. I love a lot of things Tim McGraw, so don't take the girl. Yeah, so you sing that down.

What's yours? My favorite song? Yeah. You'd almost sing it word for word. I mean, I don't know why I started thinking of Garth Brooks, but I was more when I was young. Okay, so let's say a Garth Brooks song. Yeah, you just start singing up top. You had you left song, you've heard it, you're you're you're it's in your subconscious. So because you're conscious of that,

what's your favorite book you've read multiple times? I mean, I love a lot of different books. I would say atomic habits. Okay, you've read that. What about yours? Outway in the Devil. Okay, so you've read it several times. For the song several times, there's about 330 words in an average song, and in one page of the average book, it's about 330 words. Can you recite word for word any page of your favorite book?

No, just a couple concepts, but that's it. Yet, your favorite song has the same amount of words and you recite it word for word. Why? Tonality. The tonality and the melody causes your brain to retain the information. That's why salespeople, they think they're going to buy a book for 27 bucks and like quadruple their sales, but they can't retain it because there's no tone, there's no melody. Even when you're doing the book audios, you can't really teach tonality in a book audio because like the way it's set up, you have to basically read, that's you the person to read from the book word for word.

Right. So you can't teach tonality. That's why you have to have video courses. You have to have in person, you have to have virtual and that causes your brain to retain it because they hear the tonality. So you would attribute tonality as like the number one skill that a salesperson needs to. Yeah, because your tone is how the prospect interprets why you're asking the questions, like the meaning behind your questions, right? So there's not a lot of sales trainers to talk

about. I know Jordan Belfer talks a little bit about tonality, but for me, I can have the worst script ever. And if I master tonality, I'm going to outsell those reps that have, let's say I write the script for them, the best script, and they don't know it's tonality. I'll say them five to one, just with the tonality. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I've studied a lot of sales gurus, read all the books and everything else,

and very few people address it. Some live trainings a little bit, but it's more of like, mirror the customer, right? Like that is addressing tonality, but not in the same exact way. Yeah. And I like mirroring. The only problem with mirroring that I found, this is just my personal thoughts, is that when you're talking to a friend that you trust, would it be awkward for you

if they started repeating back everything you said? All right. Yeah. So that's why I don't understand why salespeople think that if they repeat back things that the prospect says that the prospect is somehow gonna trust them because it doesn't sound like a natural conversation. Right.

It sounds salesy. Right. So what I learned how to do is to get the prospects to mirror me. So a lot of people are like, you gotta mirror the prospect. Like if they move in, you move in. I'm like, well, why not learn how to get them

to do what you're doing? Because then they're qualifying to you rather than you qualifying to them. Because I always say, who has the problems? The prospect or you? The prospect has the problems. You are the one that solved them. So why are you qualifying to them? I think one of the things I learned early on in myself's career was I would

near the customer and then I would have a shift to where they became near me. That's why you're and that's what I knew that I have the control or I had the they're starting to qualify to use. And what you that I had the control. Or I had the influence. They were starting to qualify to you. And what you guys were saying earlier is you were detached from the outcome. The biggest thing is when you get to a certain skill level, you are far more detached

because you're in control of the conversation. The prospect feels like they're in control though, but you were really the one in control. And a lot of people will be like, Oh, you know, any PQ, it's just, it's not aggressive enough. I'm like, actually, it's the most aggressive methodology out there because the prospect never feels like they were sold.

Yeah. So when you're aggressive, the prospect feels the pressure. They feel like they're being sold. That's why they get triggered. That's why they throw out so many objections. But if I can prevent most objections from happening because they don't feel like they're being sold, they almost feel like they're trying to convince you to let them pay you to solve their problems.

That's pretty damn aggressive because they don't feel like they're ever sold. It's like the Chinese, like the art of war, right? It's like they win the war by getting the country to self-destruct from the inside without firing a shot. That's the most aggressive war. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, in our organizations, one of the things I always help is like, we call it identifying the pain and it's just their questions, right? And really like helping the customer identify where they actually sit so they're looking for the solution. Like they're

just begging for the solution. And it's getting them to be open enough to tell you they're paying. Because I think a lot of questions that every industry asks, you know, that are just the standard questions, like the prospects know where those questions are leading. So they kind of go surface level. Cause it's like, you know, the water filter sales guy that Cole calls you like, do you like drinking water?

Yes, like that's a dumb question, right? So instantly you're triggered. Like it doesn's a dumb question, right? So instantly you're triggered, like it doesn't make any sense, right? So it's just, it's asking the question, but it's kind of like reversing the frame. So like let's say if I sold, you know, let's say if I sold life insurance, you know, life insurance salesperson standard question be like, hey, you know, what are you looking for in a policy? Or you know, what's an issue you're a policy? Or, you know, what's what's a what's an issue you're having that caused you to come to us? And well, the process

most prospects know where that leads to. So I might I might leave with a different question, not the first question might be like, Okay, so help me understand, you've already got this $60,000 word policy. I mean, what's what's caused you to feel like that's not going to be enough? Well, I mean, it's not enough because now they're defending themselves on why it's not enough and why they need more. See, I'm getting them to defend themselves

and qualify to me why they need me, whereas other salespeople are trying to convince. The prospect now is convincing me why they want what I have. You know, it's interesting, you're saying this in regards to sales. I think this applies also to recruiting. Yeah. Right.

You want the people to defend why they should be this applies also to recruiting. Yeah. Right? You want the people to defend why they should be a part of your vision. Yeah. In your company. Rather than trying to outpay the next highest bidder, it just doesn't make any sense. So it's a very applicable principle.

But it's also the tone and how you ask that. Because notice I'm kind of using like kind of a skeptical, like why am I even here tone compared to most people they'd be like, so I don't understand like you of a skeptical like, why am I even here tone compared to most people, they'd be like, so I don't I don't understand like you got the $80,000 policy, what's cause you to feel like it's not going to be enough. It's just like monotone flat, it doesn't trigger any motion. Right.

But I'm like, I'm not understanding like, you've, you've already got the $80,000 work policy, what's, what's cause you feel like that's not going to be enough? Which is beautiful because, yeah, it gets the customer to defend why they're on the phone or talking with you. But I think more importantly, as you already brought up, it detaches you from the end result, right? Like the customer doesn't feel like that you're just trying to sell me, right? And which I believe is like one of the biggest mistakes that salespeople make is like, so like they are so scared of the no, right? That they will do anything to get a maybe or even a yes.

Yeah, or I want to think it over. Yeah, yeah, the maybe, right? Think it over, the could be. They love it. It's like in solar, you know, when solar salespeople and companies would come to us, they'd ask all these yes questions to get them to always say yes. I'm like in solar, you know, when solar salespeople and companies would come to us, they'd ask all these yes questions to give them to always say yes.

I'm like, those are really good questions. However, the prospect knows where those lead. And so that's why they're like clamming up at the door or virtual. So you know, let's say if I'm finding out about their bill, a lot of solar says, oh, your bill is really high, right? With all the rate hikes. And even if they really are, the most process unless they're late ends of like, they're your bills really high, right? With all the rate hikes. And even if they really, they are the most process, unless they're late ends of like, they're not that bad. And

they're good, because you're like up playing something which they know why. And so they downplay it. So we were teaching startups like, and this is a little bit in the conversation. So tell me a little bit about your bill. I know, I know a lot of the year, it's pretty low. But what have they been making you pay lately? And so I'm downplaying it. And then I'm saying, what have they been making you pay lately? And so I'm downplaying it and then I'm saying, what have they been making you? Making you, making you pay lately.

Like I'm concerned, see that tone, the shift in the tone. Like tell me about your bill. I know a lot of the year it's pretty low, but what have they been making you pay lately? See, I'm downplaying it so they upplay it in their brain. Right, right. It's beautiful. Listening to you, I know one of your top students.

Oh, who's that? Tony Biocco. Listening to you, I know one of your top students. Who's that? Tony Bianco. Oh, yeah. I actually know Tony was one of our first 500 clients, which I interviewed him on on a podcast a couple years ago. He's great. Like I said, he sounds so much like you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He mimics the tonality for sure. Does a really good job.

We're huge on tonality, right? Cause like I said, that's how the prospect is interpreting the meaning behind why you're asking them something. So if I'm like, if somebody's on the fence and they're just not moving forward, and this could be any industry, I might lean and be like, hey, can I ask you something?

It's like concern tone, very soft, right? Lower the tone. They're not gonna say no. They're like, yeah, sure, what's going on? What, this is off the record. I'm not gonna go post it on Facebook. What's really holding you back? But it's the tone, it's that concern tone

that shows empathy. Because if I'm like, hey, let me ask you a question. Like, what's really holding you back? Oh, I don't know, it's just a big, completely different response. I teach something very similar, it's a little bit different, is asking for permission to slap them.

And essentially, what I teach is I say, hey, is it right if I bro down with you for a second? Like, is it right if I shoot you straight? Yeah, because now you're like real. Right, right, right. And all of a sudden, right, whenever you ask for permission or this type of thing, it's like, it's like, true. Is it right? And it's not even to ask a question like, hey, can I shoot you straight real quick? Yeah. And then like, I don't think that's your real concern. Right. Like, and

like, everything you've told me, right, like Like it's one of the biggest things that helped transition my sales. Like whenever my guys and my ladies that do sales, just remove that and ask for permission, it completely changed the case. It's so true, because a lot of salespeople are like, hey, let me ask you, and they just bulldoze, right? And you as a prospect, you know, like if you're bulldozed, you're kind of,

you're resistant, right? And so are the prospects. But if you ask permission, like, can I ask you something? Nobody's gonna say no. No, you cannot. But it's how you ask it in that tone, right? So if they call like, you know,

hey, we really liked your presentation, but you know, now's not a good time. You know, most of us, we were like, well, why is it not a good time? And I try, you said you needed it, blah, blah, blah. And they just argue and then it's over, numbers game. I might be like, yeah, that's not a good time? And I try, you said you needed it, blah, blah, blah. And they just argue and then it's over, numbers game. I might be like, yeah, that's not a problem. Can I ask you something before we get off the phone?

So I'm selling the exit. Selling the exit. Yeah, sure, go ahead. How can I communicate to you that you might be making a mistake without you getting upset with me? Nobody's gonna say, you can't, see now I'm opening them up, but I'm using a concern tone, a tone that shows empathy. If I used a curious tone, it wouldn't land.

I love it. Let's shift gears. I love this like just as far as like sales skills and development, but I think there's another aspect to sales that some people talk about, some don't, but just like the mentality, like what mental frames are you creating, like, internally? Because, you know, it's one thing to have the skill to sell, and it's a completely different thing to, like, hold

yourself disciplined and not be satisfied and everything else. Let's talk about a little bit of that. My mindset when I was in sales from the very first door I knocked on to even now, is I don't use selling as something that you do to someone. I believe it's something you do for someone. And it's a big mental shift, right? Because when I was on the doors and they're like, yeah, you know, whatever, we get into it and they don't buy whatever. I'd be like, oh, sorry, I couldn't help you.

And I just go in the next store. Like I literally didn't even think about it right after that. It's like Tom Brady throws an interception. He just goes back. He doesn't think about it. Ten seconds later, he just goes to the next, you know, the next play when he gets the ball after that or whatever. So I think you have to have a mindset of like you don't necessarily really care

if the prospect doesn't buy because it has no impact on you. You're not the one that has a problem. Right. So, yeah, removing your identity from the situation, they're not attacking you, they're just saying no to the offer, whatever. Yeah, it's just like, but I would always, I'd go back and be like, okay, but what did I say? What did I not ask?

Because they had problems. Yep. I could solve those. So the missing link was me. Right. Not them. I never blamed the prospect. Never.

I think the kiss of death for salespeople is blaming the leads, blaming the prospect. I always blame myself. What did I say? What did I not ask that caused them to react that way? That caused them not to buy. So what kept you going? So, you know, one of my, what I would call elite superpowers is not being satisfied, right? Like, because I think that's probably the kiss of death for most elite salespeople, right? Like, because you go and you start making 800 grand a year, $800,000 a year as a salesperson for any product is considered elite. Right? Like, and that, that is phenomenal. And so to go from 800 grand to 2 million a year, there had to be a mental shift that

kept you going. What was that? To me, to me, and I, because I played high school sports, I'm playing college baseball. So to me, like, I was very competitive. Now, I'm not a person that's going to talk about that. I don't like to keep that to myself. It's like an internal driver. Like, I'm not gonna go by, well, we did this, we do that. Like, I'm just gonna keep that to myself. And I'm like, I don't know who said it, Steve Martin, or like, become so good that they can't ignore you. That's just how I grew

up as a kid because I grew up on a cataranch. My parents weren't wealthy nothing was ever given to me you know playing football and baseball in high school I wasn't the most gifted but I was extremely competitive and I would out learn other people so my bat stance, I would have better techniques because I'd spend more time on it, right? I'd analyze different pitches coming from the player's hand compared to other people would just get up there hit or not hit, right?

They didn't care. So to me, it was all about commitment to being number one. I could never be number two. And sales was the same way. That's one of the biggest reasons why I left alarms my last year, because I started getting to a point where I was like, this is too easy, it's boring. I don't even care if I'm the number one rep anymore.

And that's when you know, like I need to go do something else. And that's why I wanted to get into a completely different industry. And everybody told me at Apex and my friends at Pinnacle, like, oh, you'll be back next year. You'll be back. You can't make this type of money outside of door to door.

There's no way. And that was like a chip on my shoulders. Like, oh really? I'm just gonna freaking move back to Missouri and you'll never hear from me again. And they never did. And this, I made way more money. I love it.

This actually brings up another aspect. One thing I've found with like most successful salespeople is that they have painful moments in their lives, whether it's little words that they have painful moments in their lives, whether it's little words that they hear or whatnot that they draw upon to stick to the course, to keep working, to push. Like what are some of those painful moments in your life that you use even today to draw on to keep rocking? Yeah, because so I went to school to become a psychologist. Which I also want to ask you why. I was just fascinated.

My first year I was like physical education major because it's playing sports. But then I started to realize like, oh, they don't make any money. So I need to do something different. And I was always fascinated with the mind and the way the brain works. Because it was always like,

I wanted to get into the pitcher's mind. Like I wanted to see what was going, what was he thinking? Look him in the eyes and see what he was thinking. Because a lot of times I could pick up what type of pitch he was gonna do real quick. My eyes were just like that and I played center field. So if you're out in, do you play baseball?

I play baseball. What's your position? Second base usually. Yeah, okay, so don't have, second base is harder, but out in center field, you can literally see where the pitch is going, outside, up, down. So it's like, you get a jump on the ball. Like you're already moving towards like,

when you start seeing the pitch come out of the hand. So in my mind, like I was always fascinated with just everything, why things happened. So when I got into sales, I'm like, well, why did they give me that I wanna think it over? Like I was thinking, why do they tell me they need to talk to their spouse? Like I wanted to understand why they thought that, why did they give me that I want to think it over? Like, I was thinking, why did they tell me they need to talk to their spouse? Like, I wanted to understand why they thought

that why they didn't buy. And so to me, it was fascinating just to learn about the brain and why it made sense. And I have one of my most best friend or something was that famous psychologist who's charging like $1,000 an hour per session is really, really good, got big results. And so I'm like, and he was charging like $1,000 an hour per session. He was really, really good. Got big results. And so I'm like, I need to make money. You know, I'm not going to go pro. What am I going to do?

And so that's why I've been in that. But as a psychologist, going back to this, the chip on the shoulder, I believe everybody has a chip on their shoulder. Some people just don't activate it. My chip on my shoulder. And a lot of it comes from, as you as a child, from the ages of four to about 13. That's where your whole worldview usually is shaped by the people you're around. Maybe the church you go to maybe what you watch on TV, kids now influenced by

influencers on TikTok. That's their worldview, okay, which is dangerous. So as a kid, my stepdad lost his job, he became disabled, he got lupus and and went from like a middle-class family to like broke and poor. And my mom had to go become a waitress because she didn't initiate him back to college. And we had, there was five of us boys. And so around the age 11, we became very poor. And I remember going to baseball practice, still remember this, and my parents couldn't afford the Nike creeds anymore. And I had some brand from like Walmart or something. I just remember feeling so stupid, right. And I had some brand from Walmart or something.

I just remember feeling so stupid, right? And I'm just like, I'm never gonna feel poor. And so from that day forward, something shifted where I'm just like, it was like I was afraid of ever being poor. And probably till my early 30s until I went to a landmark forum, I didn't know why I was so motivated to succeed, but it was like a fear of loss. Like I want to be successful, so I never feel poor again. And so

because I went to landmark forum, it's really good. It just kind of helps you understand, it's personal value helps you understand why you do what you do. I've heard about it. Yeah, it's really good. And so then I'm like, okay, well, I don't have to, I don't have to want to be successful because I'm afraid of being poor. I need to switch that and I want to be successful because I want to help more people. I want to be able to have more impact. And so it was a big shift for me.

But everybody has a chip, just most people don't activate it. Hey guys, it's Chris. Hey, a lot of you leave comments asking for help. Do me a real quick favor. Shoot me a text at 509-374-7554. That's 509-374-7554. Shoot me a text. I'll answer and help you with whatever you need. Don't worry. I got you back. Let's go back to the show, baby.

Yeah. I think we all have something. I think that's been one of my also superpowers has been able to draw on different chips or different scenarios from my life or whatnot. Like, you know, I had an instance my junior year where I should have been the starting quarterback and ended up kind of what I felt like it was being taken from me and I had no control over. I did everything that the coaches said

that would validate there or whatnot. And I had a decision to make in that point in my life where I had to completely shift like who I was to be able to attain the goal that I had. And like for a long time, I drew off of that painful moment. And then my bankruptcy and the other chip I'm sure it here's the thing if that hadn't happened to you you might know there's been where you're at 100% I wouldn't be like those chains of

events and like those those dark times of my life are been have been the most powerful to me that have kept me motivated on the doors kept me motivated to keep going in the business kept me motivated to the doors, kept me motivated to keep going in the business, kept me motivated to work on my relationships. You know, it's just, yeah. I think it's the way you look at trials and tribulations. I believe that God gives us trials and tribulations. So, you know, scriptures, we make our, we turn our weaknesses into our strengths.

And I think a lot of people don't do that though. He gives them the trials and tribulations, but they just like settle with like, well, it's just the way it is, they're just gonna be weak. And I think, you know, guys like you and I, we want to take those weaknesses and like, how do we make them strengths? Like, how do we overcome them? Because we know when we overcome, when we overcome that fear of change, everything we've ever wanted is on that other side of that change. Absolutely.

I would say that some people suffer to feel dignified and so they hold on to the suffering. Yeah. Other people go through the suffering to learn so they can move away. It's all what you do with it. You're going to learn from it and you look at it as like, hey, this sucked, but what am I going to do about it? Or you're going to be like, this sucks and my life is horrible. It's just, it's two different paths. Jeremy, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Like there's absolutely incredible nuggets in here with psychology and sales practices and just, I mean, what you're building is just absolutely phenomenal. Would highly recommend it for anybody that's wanting to really scale up their sales program and utilize where are the best places for people to utilize your content in the different programs that you have.

Yeah, just follow me on Instagram, Jeremy Lee Miner. That's my verified account. We do a lot of reels there. You can also go to BarnesandNoble.com, get our best-selling book, New Model of Selling, Selling the Unsellable Generation, the big orange book. And then if they have questions, they can just text me. So I'll even give you the number. Yeah, that'd be great.

480-637-2944. Every day for an hour or two, I sit around with a bunch of my sales trainers and we answer questions. So they're welcome to text me. That's pretty phenomenal. I think it's a great business practice. around with a bunch of my sales trainers and we answer questions. So they're welcome to text me about sales questions. That's pretty phenomenal. I think it's a great business practice

and the fact that you're opening yourself up that way is fantastic. I appreciate it. Yeah, they want more advanced training they always reach out to us. Awesome. Guys, appreciate you jumping on, listening to this podcast,

another episode of Next Level Pros. As always, if you're looking at joining the premier program or just seeing what it's like, you can get a $47 10-day trial over at gonextlevelpros.com in which you're gonna be able to have access to me, Darrell, and our team, in which you'll be able to ask your questions, be able to utilize and see what it's like

to be a part of our community. Once again, head on over to gonextlevel level pros.com. It's in the show notes. Appreciate you guys until next time.