NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - 2022 Projected Starters AUTOPSY

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

A room filled with some heroes - Dan Hanzus, Marc Sessler and Gregg Rosenthal bring you all of the latest news around the NFL, starting with Aaron Rodgers discussing the idea of retirement last week (8:30). Stephon Tuitt and Alex Mack actually did announce their retirement, as did Romeo Crennel (11:45). The 49ers have excused Jimmy Garoppolo from mandatory minicamp (16:15), and a 24th case has been filed against Deshaun Watson (18:00). Then, the heroes perform an autopsy on Gregg's Projected Starters piece for NFL.com (23:00) and rate Gregg's spiciest takes from 1 to contrarian (30:00). After that, legendary NFL special teams coach Mike Westhoff joins the show to talk about his new book "Figure It Out" (47:00), coaching the Saints in the 2018 NFC Championship loss to the Rams (54:30), competing against Bill Belichick (59:00), his thoughts after visiting Miami Dolphins OTAs last week (1:00:00), and his strained relationship with Bill Parcells (1:02:00). Note: timecodes approximate.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. The Around the NFL podcast. The Jets will win the Super Bowl. It's what a crazy person would say. From the Chris Wesleying podcast, studio. It's around the NFL. I'm Dan Hansis. I got heroes here. Some of them. Greg Rosenthal. Mark Sessler.

Hardy. Harty. Thank you to everyone. An outpouring on the old social media of positivity and congratulations and strolling down memory lane after we made our big E is for extension announcement on Thursday. show. So thank you to everybody who said kind words. That is, look at Mark's shirt. It says, be kind on it, four times in different letters. And certainly, that's what we felt from the listeners and everyone else in the

business. That was my order to them and they responded with kindness and I appreciate it. Is that like a self-reminder or you're telling others to be kind, be kind, be kind. That's what you're sure. It's actually my wife's t-shirt. I'll start there. But when I wear it,

it doesn't necessarily translate into my own mood. So I'm not taking my own note. Is that a humble brag or I don't know where to take that? You're wearing your wife's shirt. Your wife is a slender woman herself. And you're just saying you guys can share wardrobe now. That's where you're at. I think it's a t-shirt. I'm not even sure it was a female's t-shirt. It just was, I've noticed it. But you share it. That is interesting. Do you share any other like undergarments or? No, not that I know. I've, I've usurped it. This is now my shirt. So, okay, it's yours. Do you ever catch? a scent of, oh, it's spirit, anti-perspirin.

I have, I mean, I think we've all done this in a pinch. Like, when you run out of your men's deodorant, there have been times when I've used, it was secret. It was a version of secret. And I have to say, Teen spirit. Is this teen spirit on me? She does not wear a teen spirit,

but secret actually worked very well. I'm learning a lot of it. That's what the ad say. That's what the ad say. Well, I thought I would overpower it with my scent, and it did not happen. It was very nice to hear from the listeners, because they'll remember shows. There was that one thread of, like, it was someone's five favorite shows. And I can't remember half of the, I mean, when they tell us about it, then you remember it.

But it's just been so long since you thought about some of those shows. We're now going to be entering our 10th season together. And, you know, we're becoming older men. And I appreciate when you guys remind us of some of the things you enjoyed in the past. Oh, I love those. It's like learning it for the first time. Yeah, I love when we hear from the listeners like, oh, you, you know, I just graduated from college. Like, you know, I've been listening to you since I started high school.

I was like, whoa, have we been doing this that long? We have. What has happened? Where has the time gotten? And also, like I said, whether it was a private text or, you know, an email or social media, all the people that said nice things, people that we know. Now we're going to have to start cataloging. We're going to go back and cataloging who we didn't hear from. Oh, that process has already begun.

I don't think I heard from anyone. For many people. I don't think anyone reached out. Mark, now that we are under contract for more years at the NFL, they're going to be asking more from you. And I was thinking, side podcasts, right off the top of my head for you, to podcast potentials. Spiarts with Mark Sessler. No, I hate that. And it's just nothing, but nothing NFL related, but all the other spiarts.

I don't like the way that the, that you're, that you're voicing that. Oh, so you want it to be spiarts at meax Yassel. No, I do not want that. I already told you before the show that that that actual clip that you do is annoying to me. But tell me, you want it to be sports with Mark Sessler. That's closer to it. Although I'd rather pick a different topic. That was the title of Katie Nolan's podcast.

Who? Spiards? Sports. Oh, okay. That means I have to start. I'd have to start watching other sports, which sounds time-consuming. Then I'd one other, and I'll keep workshopping this because I just assume you won't like any of them. But this guy gets it with Mark Suss.

I like that. I can work with that. It sounds like I could hit touch on any sort of topic that pleases me. Coming up today, one of my favorite football figures in the coaching ranks in the last 20 years, Mike Westoff. He has a new book coming out called Figure It Out, My 32-year Journey, while revolutionizing pro football special teams. How about that for a thick book, too? I mean, he went to work here.

I mean, look at the flex, right in the subhead there. When you say I revolutionized pro football special teams. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to, that's a commanding title, too. Like your shirt, it's, it's an order. Figure it out. Be kind. I assume, Greg, that you've already read the entire book,

considering that we're having him on as a guest to discuss that product. It's the only way to do things. Right. It's powered through it over the world. weekend. Kevin Danger's in town. I said, Kev, I'm going to take a break. I've got to read another 200 pages of Westoff's biography with Barry. Barry Wilner. Also coming up today, Greg, one of your, I bet it's one of your better trafficked pieces. Projected starter series. You go through each division, each team, and take a closer look. Now it's time to

put these teams on the slab. It's an awesome. All right. Let's dig through it. Projected Star is autopsy. How do you feel about that? I feel like you always would have liked to be in the writer's room for like a TV procedural in a different life maybe. And this is your chance.

This is your chance. I do have a question though. I mean, I brought this up to you also before the show. This is the time of year where all 32 teams are, you know, generic. They're very much alive. Right. They've not been injured or, you know, their weaknesses have not been exposed. I understand.

And we're calling them. that they are all dead and we're opening up their bodies on a table. Well, true, because the rosters are a living thing, and it's very annoying writing this every year. The editors, the second you posted, of course, it's like, oh, Stefan Tuer retired. Oh, can we just, this or that happened? Oh, this, you know, and it's like,

we just got to rewrite this for the next three months? What are we going to do? Well, they did not update the Alex Mack retirement, so maybe the cutoff's occurred. Let me clarify. The autopsy is on the series itself. Okay. So now Greg, his football mind has dug through all these teams and now we're going to pick through the remains of Greg's insane rantings.

I still have a question or two. I like the rantings, the takes that go with it more than the projected starters themselves. Speaking of insane rantings on the back of the Westoff book, this, how about this? What do they call the little pull quotes? Yeah. It's basically blurb, blurb, a blurb, yeah. We called Mike Westoff the men. scientist. He changed the game.

Rog Goodell, comma, NFL commissioner. All right. Do you think Goodell wrote that? Or did a Goodell handler type tap that out? How about you ask Mike Westoff that when he's on the show? I will. I promise to ask that question. It's very outspoken man.

I think Wilner reached out to a PR representative with the NFL, told them what they were looking for. And then they got an email back. And now I don't know who wrote the blur. Well, that's right. That's half the equation. But now we're doing an autopsy on the back blurb for the West off. Just trying to let people know this is how the real stuff goes down.

But before that, let us hit the news. It's because they were going to bang. Time for news and notes presented by Upwork where you can build a team that will build your business. Learn more at Upwork.com. All right. Listen, Aaron Rogers. thought he'd be out of the news this off season, not so. Yeah, you know, he, he says he could definitely see the end coming to his career. We know he's back, uh, after redoing his deal with the Packers.

Of course, this is also, uh, surprising that he lost his number one wide receiver, Devante Adams. You wonder? You wonder if, if he would have had that information at hand. I guess we've heard that maybe he did, but I don't know. Would he still made the same decision about going back to Green Bay? who knows. And we'll see how this season plays out.

We'll see what Greg has to say about the Packers roster a little bit later. But Rogers is introspective right now, Mark, and he is thinking about a future that doesn't rely on football because it's not he said about the game. The game to him still comes easily, but we've heard this so many times. It's everything around it, the preparation, the hours needed to be a truly great quarterback. And he is as the back-to-back MVP, of course. So Rogers, maybe this is it.

We shall see. I think it's very much a, I'm letting you know that next season could be the end. The one after that could be the end. The one after that could be because he's what essentially three one-year deals. And this is not, this is what Aaron Rogers has been saying for a very long time. And there was a period where every quarterback released, a press release saying, I'm going to play until age 45. Well, I don't think with Aaron Rogers that that's the same DNA with it and that Tom Brady has.

His mind is, when I start hearing this from any athlete, I agree that he can go be as proficient and talented as possible on the field. I think he can separate that. But mentally, when you're playing football and you start thinking about the fact that this is not what I want to do with my life anymore on some level, that would concern me from a starting quarterback. Not overly concerned. He's a compartmentalizer. He thinks differently. He's going to write his own original ending. I know that.

It's not going to be what people expect. but when this is in the head of your quarterback, the end is near. I mean, the guy turns 40 next season at 20, 23. So he'll turn 39. He snuck up on us because he started. He waited on the bench for three years behind Favre. This is his 18th season, but he hasn't started all those years. Right.

And it's not a bit surprising. You're right, Mark, year to year. Then again, he's set to make 59 million next year. And 49 the year after that, you're really going to pass that up. The way it's structured, I don't think he has to give back any guarantees because that was one thing I was curious about when I heard this like, wait, isn't he guaranteed money into next year? No, not really. I mean, he is and he isn't. He got the big signing bonus and the salary is just huge.

But I'm with you, Mark. I don't think he's going to be playing that late. And that would mean that this could be. What if it has a bad season? I don't know if he's going to want to be the sixth best quarterback in the league. But $49 million or $59 million in 2023 would be hard to pass up. off meltdown. It's like you have to go through the whole process all over again. I think it could be enough to convince him to ejector seat. That's, and that's more or less, um, what he said in his

comments. It's the other stuff that wears on you and makes you think about life after football. Tommy obviously set the bar so high with playing so many years, but I could definitely see the end coming in other news. Retirements. Let's get caught up with some roster retirements. Alex Mack, Stefan Tuitt, Romeo Cronnell, who, after nearly 40 seasons in coaching, he announces retirement at age 74. But these are guys that had big years to it and Mac. They are walking away from the game with something left to give. Yeah, to it 29.

I mean, was an all-pro type of player in 2020 was one of the keys to that defense. And I think was one of the reasons why they were so bad last year. People kind of sleep on the fact that the Steelers' defense was mediocre. And to it, had some off-field stuff. His brother had passed away. He had some physical stuff. So they're used to not playing with him since he wasn't there last year. But also, that's a major loss.

And the 49ers think that Mack is a major loss, too, because they just spent the last three months trying to convince him to change his mind. And he didn't. And so they have a couple questions on their offensive line right now. Right, because Mack has been nothing but consistent in his entire career, time pro bowler. He was a favorite of Shanahan, who was his offensive coordinator in Cleveland in 2014, the year that Shanahan was there for one year. The offense got out to a great start. They were like seven and three. And then earlier on in that, Alex Mack suffered a season-ending

injury. The line fell apart. The whole offense fell apart. A year later, Shanahan brought him to Atlanta and then tugged to San Francisco. Now that he's gone, Jake Brendel is at center, it looks like. And the interior of their line, if you go look at what PFF thinks of it, is a lot less glowing than a year ago. Right. And to it, we can skip this part of Projecta Start. It's like his loss is a reminder that this defense on paper not that exciting. Also, give Romeo, what a career, not just the time with the Giants and certainly the Patriots.

But even, I know, it was a lot of bad moments as Brown's head coach. But here's just a fact for you. There have been 13 coaches that have coached the Brown since they returned. Uh-oh. Only three of them have ever won 10 games. in a season. So I think it's a losing proposition. You're fighting uphill when you become the Brown's coach. And Romeo Cornell, maybe he didn't do that bad a job, is what I'm saying. So they had this sort of magical 10 and 6 campaign with Derek Anderson at quarterback, a deal with

the devil type of scenario where he was essentially like a raging upscale pro bowler for one season. They gave Romeo Cornell a big contract extension. And the next year, I think they went four and 12 and didn't win another more than five games for another six season. So, you're right. It was an outlier, but I think he might have been, there are others out there, the nicest coach that we've ever caught. He's like one of the nicest men and just like never really

you saw him get like angry or unflappable at anyone. Maybe BB's favorite, Belichick's favorite. If I had to guess who was like his favorite assistant in all of these years, my guess would be Romeo that those hugs that they would have at the end of the Super Bowl. You could ask Bill Belichick on

Thursday when he joins us on the show. Just kidding. That will never happen. NFL networks Tom Pelliserra reports that the 49ers well have we ever asked we have not

extended an invite and how about we have some I think we have at the owners meetings because we kind of put the spread let's and try

to get everyone and see who says yes I think we might have asked but that's like speed dating we have to make it special

we have to button up the bell check letters sure check out Mark Sessler's long form when he was a boy writing to Belich and he got a letter

back we got to button that up we got Greg and the crush that he's had on Belichick all these years. I obviously have a lot of respect for Bill Belichick, despite some of the agony he's brought to my life. Bill Belichick, let's get him on the show.

Why don't we set that a goal now that we are staying here at the NFL to get Bill Belichick on the show before the end? Sean Kelly behind the glass just gave me a very, like, earnest thumbs up. No problem. Working on it. Way to go, boss. I'm into it. I'll remind.

Way to go, boss. Do you remember me? I asked you a question. You got it, Skip. I asked you a question about Antonio Pierce at the 2007 Super Bowl. My first Super Bowl. It was a big deal to me at the time.

It's like, no, but I don't, da, no, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, I'll really, I'll really get a good answer asking about the other. Anyway, Jimmy G. Jimmy G. What's up with Jimmy G? NFL Network's Tom Pellasero reports that the 49ers have excused Jimmy Garapolo

from the team's mandatory mini camp. He is recovering a, course, from offseason shoulder surgery. He was not traded by the 49ers, obviously, to this point. And now you wonder where he is in the team's pecking order with Trey Lance ready and waiting or so it seems. So anyway, we don't know if Jimmy G's going to be with the Niners, but he won't be practicing with him at least until at the very earliest training camp. It borders for me on a non-story because like there's the goal has to be.

to shop him at some point in camp probably when disaster strikes another team and he looks more like a favorable option why even have him in the building and receive as much as a paper cut speaking it can be dangerous though i'm with you though i think there are some stories that it's like i just want to enter it for the record in the news maybe there's nothing to say but it's so you got to enter it for the record dan that's important to have it on record and for posterity also uh i kind of missed this i don't know maybe i was and you guys talked about it. But speaking at OTAs in the last week of May, Kyle Shanahan said of Garoppel OX, I expect it sometime he'll be traded, but it's not a guarantee. It went on hold when the surgery happened. So, I mean, if the coach is saying he's expecting it to happen,

they probably feel pretty confident it will happen, but also the door is open. And then it gets interesting. They've probably had conversations that have led them to think that, like, he is sick of being the nice guy, which makes sense. Well, he himself said that it's been a trying journey, as nice as he's been about it. In Deshaun Watson News, another woman has filed a civil lawsuit against Watson, raising the number of women who have accused the Brown's quarterback of inappropriate sexual conduct to 24.

24 women now. And Deshaun Watson and his legal representation say that all 24 are lying. And that legal representation, Greg, continues to make an ass of itself when they go on the radio and really any time they open their mouth. And another example that happened during an interview earlier this week or late last week. Yeah, with her friend Seth Payne. It was on his show in Houston. And yeah, Rusty Hardin made the case that happy endings in his words are not a crime. if money was not paid extra for him.

This is Sean Watson's legal representation, who's supposed to be helping him out, pointing that out. And then as part of that exact quote said later, doing something or saying something or being a way that makes you uncomfortable is not a crime. First of all, it's not criminal conduct anymore. That's the one we're talking about

because these are civil allegations. But number two, these statements were so dumb to put out there, not just from a PR angle, but from a legal angle, that they are quoted directly in this 24th complaint. That lawyer work. Right. So the 23rd and 24th cases have happened since we've last talked about, at least. There was also a 23rd case.

And this one, the 24th one, refers exactly to that because it gets to the idea that Watson is okay making these women feel uncomfortable. The allegations also include that he took out his penis and he ejaculated off. honor without permission, which is uncomfortable to hear, but that's like what is in more than a few of these. And like, we know that the lawyer and the agent

don't, you know, they're not concerned with the women. But I think there's a case to be made for they're not really looking out for Deshawn Watson's best interest either here because they could have stopped all of this last October. There was a moment there where reported, according

to Mike Florio, the women were willing to accept $100,000 for this all to go away last October was part of the Dolphins straight. About $2.5 million paid out. And they could have ended it right then. And the cost that they have now, because the price has certainly gone up, I think, in the meantime. And the cost to Watson and the Browns in his life and everything. In the meantime, also shows he's not getting good advice, among other things, not that it's not all his fault.

I mean, Rusty Harden, it's not been an attorney for four weeks. Like, he should know the number one rule is that probably your client is going to go say stuff that requires damage control. point to Deshawn Watson's press conference with the Browns where everything that came out of his mouth felt like he was seeing this in a completely different way and accountable for none of it. And so Rusty Hardin, if anything, say nothing. I'm not arguing that they look completely like buffoons

in this whole situation. But at this point, I think it expedites the NFL having to come in with what... Expedites. I mean, how much longer was... Expedite, just do something, make an announcement. I just say this hurries it. Well, the lawyers did say that he finished four different interviews with the NFL and that's over with now.

How is this still being discussed? We should know. And Rusty Hardin said on the, I believe, the same interview, there's a good possibility the NFL will make a decision on Watson's status that he won't like, meaning likely a suspension, is coming. Hardin also added he doesn't expect these two new lawsuits to change the NFL's timeline. All right. Okay.

Well, we'll see. but it is now dragging almost into, as we head into mid-June almost, no word from the NFL on punishment for Deshawn Watson. So that's where that story is at. And that, my friends, was news and notes presented by Upwork, the world's work marketplace, learn more at Upwork.com. That was a bulging, dramatic pause.

Pregnant with twins, just with triplets. That's, Greg's wording there. He said words that have never been uttered on this podcast, and it's knock me for a loop. It's understandable. Yeah. Kind of knock me,

knock me aside there. Now I'm back up. All right. Let's take a break and then get to projected starters. Autopsy. Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now I'm Drew Franklin.

And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts pretzel that was. other big takeaway from that. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brum.

On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year.

Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture. If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft

tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Motive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Projected starters. Or topsy!

The series is done. Greg did the work. And the work was good. It was good work, Mark. It's a great read. It's eight great reads. It's a man that clearly has his finger on the pulse. But now there is no longer a pulse. on the exercise. It's on a slate. Slat?

Slab. Slab. Sittin there on a slab. We're getting out our scalples. Putting on our gloves. Putting our scrubbing in. Do you have to do the hand-washing doctor thing before surgery if it's autopsy? I don't know.

If it's a dead internet article, that's where we rested on this. I don't know if we need to wash our hands. But I think, yes, in a real autopsy, I think being sterile and clean, yes, you should probably We'll be wash your hands. Let's sterilize. Seems like the minimum. All right. Mark and I are going to sterilize now.

One moment. All right. We're back. We're fully sterilized. Feeling pure. How do we get another contract? I don't know. Here we are.

Now I know why Dan didn't want to do my idea for this segment. What was your idea? It was like, What was it? It was me throwing out the takes and you, you judging it on one to contrarian. But you have this vision of the voice. Oh, we can still do that, though. Why don't we do it?

I like that too. It's a poo-poo platter. I want to see where this goes, the autopsy. Also, something that shouldn't be close to an autopsy procedure, just a trays of food that you're eating off of, like it sounds unrighteous. Here we go. I like that. In fact, let's fold that into it. It's part of the overall conversation.

Okay. What is it? I don't know. Contrarian or what? Like, it was on a scale of one to contrarian. I missed that text entirely. So I made, you were on it. Yeah, you responded.

I actually also responded to Greg's text and said, I think that's a really good idea. There's a lot there. And then it was just. People are learning to. This is an autopsy of how the show is made. I missed it. That's, listen, you got to take ownership sometimes. It's like when Henry sent a very nice tweet out and he's like, you guys, you don't even know the, the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to make around the NFL what it is.

And this is it right here. These texts. Make them. It takes a lot of work at least. All right. Let's get into it. It's on the slab. It's time to dig in.

And I'll start here, Greg. Okay. You go through all these rosters. And when you see the teams, when you're writing these up, the teams that had the really strong roster that are Super Bowl contenders. on the teams at the very top of this exercise in terms of loaded teams, quote unquote, what was the biggest flaw

on an otherwise really strong roster? Like, what was one that really stood out to you? It was like, oh, wow, okay, this could undermine a potential champion. I feel like with more than not, it's offensive lines. I would say the bills offensive line. I like love the bills in general.

How can you not? And if you look at their offensive line, They were mediocre last year, I would say, and they kind of replaced guys with run-first type of players. So could Josh Allen be under a lot of pressure here, Spencer Brown, Roger Saffolds, who didn't have the best season for the Titans last year, Graver's Titans? Like, you know, they played this guy, Ryan Bates, who's a restricted free agent. That's one that immediately comes to mine. Certainly the Packers' pass catchers, but that's an obvious one. Right.

But I thought you kind of thought maybe that wouldn't be too much of an issue? No, because I think the rest of the team is great. I would say the Broncos are similar in the offensive. I feel like there was a couple teams like that where the Broncos' offensive line could ruin everything. So offensive line could be an issue for some of these teams. How about you, Mark, throw out something? So as you go through 32 of these, and, you know, obviously it's not like you're just meeting these teams for the first minute when you do it. But was there one team where your impression of who they are,

what they are right now, changed the most, that you maybe learned them out the most or maybe altered the way you feel about them. I felt like the Cardinals pop up as a team that after I was over, it was like, oh, this team could win five games. Like, when you look at the Cardinals, what do you look at and say, like, that's what we're good at? Like, what is our big asset here?

Now, maybe it's when DeAndre Hopkins returns, it's Kyler Murray and Brown and Hopkins and more. and you have this vision of that all works out in a passing game. I guess that's it. But I don't know. The offensive line on paper, not getting me excited. Very thin. I think they overachieved in the secondary,

but for the most part, I'm not in love with that group. They have these two linebackers. They drafted in the first round, Zaven Collins and Isaiah Simmons, who's kind of underperformed. Their defensive line and their pass rush looks very thin. And you look at the rest of that division,

and you think about the coaching and the striven. that's going on and I felt much different about them like worse there were certain teams that I probably felt better to cults would be one so would you would you classify the Cardinals as like a bad surprise where you went that would be a bad surprise yeah what about a good surprise the team where you're going through the roster you didn't think much about them and then all of a sudden it's like whoa what do we got cooking here I thought I'd be more down on the Colts than I am and now I'm sort of convinced their pass rush for instance and their defense in general they lost Iber Fluce the defensive coordinator but I think replacing, who was it, Xavier Rhodes with Stefan Gilmore is good at cornerback. And then you look at that pass rush, Quitty Pay, who I liked in his second year, and then Buckner and Adding in Gokwe, and they have the guy coming off a torn ACL slipping my mind in his second year. Like, I like their defense a lot. And then I kind of looked at the rest of the group, but I'm thinking like, okay, I'm back on board. Back on board with the Colts.

The Bengals were another one. Not that I should be surprised by them, but I would say like, in a good way. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised in a good way. The Saints, like, the more I looked at them, I'm like, I think people are a little too down on the Saints. Everyone is jumping on the Lions bandwagon as the concept of a fun team that could, you know, suddenly win some games in a pretty shoddy division. Do you buy into the Lions after this project, or do you say no? Oh, I'm totally in on the Lions. I think we both.

What does it mean? What does that mean? Like just being a fun, exciting team making wins, though. Hey, I had these things written down that were like maybe, because I didn't know what we were going to do here, totally. That were maybe the hot takes that you guys were great or stuff. Let's get to it. I mean, there were some of these that I've already. And then you want us to grade it one to contrary.

Yeah, I don't even know how that makes sense. You're famously a contrary. We're both medical examiners. We may have different opinions. Fully sterilized. One of them was like, okay, everyone's in on the Colts, the Lions offensive line. Great offensive line. Looks like a top five offensive line.

How about the Lions' defensive line might be a top five. to 10 defensive line. You're cooking with gas here that both of these lines could be among the very best in the league. Here's what you're working with. Aidan Hutchinson added to a group that already had Romeo Acquara. Charles Davis is coming off, I mean, Charles Harris coming off a career year. You have these two young defensive tackles who they're hoping to develop Onwozerike. You have Romeo Acura's brother.

You have Aleem McNeil. You've got a lot of players. I didn't even mention Michael Brockers. They drafted Josh Pascal. I like the teams that's got like seven or eight guys where their backups look like some team starters. That was a long one. Is contrarian 10 or is it 100 in this exercise?

I don't know. Oh, I thought it was a 10. That was just the way I heard. I was thinking 10 too. I just didn't want to come in with something if we're going to a scale 100. I'm going to give that a four because I think you backed up. Too much.

No, I agree with the offensive line. And it's not a wild hot take from outer space with the facts that you provide. The defensive line would be. the top 10 part you need you need these things to click obviously like aid hutchson has to hit the ground running joshua pascal you need that guy to hit the round running ground running you got Levi anewzikare oh yeah it's a tough one uh he's a second year pro so you need these guys to kind of him and a lee mcnele who they drafted high last year both of them and we're like fine i don't

know if that you can like be totally on board that they're going to be people like Aaron glen too they right he is a guy uh seen as an on the wrong defensive coordinator could put himself in if they take the leap he will be a hot name on the head coach market i agree um next year aaron glen uh all right i will give that a five okay you know i think that was and that's good i think that's kind of where that means it's it's a reason to take that wasn't one of my higher ranked with i tried to rank like if i only had time for a few that well you did say i have to say you said that they could be special in the write-up which All right, I'm going to move it, but that's not contrarian.

I'm going to put it six. It's good, though. Lions Pop is not contrarian right now. Right. It's not contrarian. How about Khalil Mack is the third biggest free agent addition to the third most important three agent addition to the Chargers defense? To me, if you look where you look where they struggled a year ago, J.C. Jackson, I think is going to have a bigger impact. And then you got Sebastian Joseph Day, who's really fixing a position that they didn't, that they needed more.

They also added Austin Johnson, who's like a run stopper, so that kind of combining those two. Max replacing a guy who was pretty good in the first place, Nuosu, who had a nice impact. And like, that team, maybe I'm ranting too much, but that team has a lot of questions on their defense. There's a lot of talent, but they got to produce. They didn't produce last year. I like this one. I'm going to give this a six and a half because. If you get the version of Kille-Mack

where you're not getting what you had a couple years ago, then it isn't a massive upgrade from what they had. I do think, though, because he knows the system, he knows Brandon Staley really well, but what it could do is help Bosa in so many ways if he comes in and plays like the good version of Killelemaq. But I still think that's a spicy take, 6.5. I think it's almost like the contrarian thing is what's...

Right, maybe that was the wrong way to look at it. But this is why it needs to work out. Maybe it's like a spicy meatball. like yeah i think because that's pretty spicy meatball um i put that at uh seven and half because i think people like to gravitate towards who's the veteran name same thing up in buffalo like von miller he's going to be the guy that puts them over the top well if it's the von miller that showed up in the playoffs yes it was the von miller that is another year older and maybe in decline they're going to need other guys are going to end up being more important but i like that one we're flying

let's keep rolling Greg give us another so now i'm just doing these yeah this is fun i like this okay i wish you guys would have flag this before this morning. I like the autopsy. We're getting both. I mean, attacks be like, we should do something like that. He literally did. If you read the thread, it looks very much like you looked at Greg's suggestion and my response

to Greg suggestion. Disregarded. Exactly. Because you're a nice guy. In general, when you want to disregard an idea, you probably just will ignore it. And it was also, by the way, Sunday for us. You know, we were having our own Sundays. So it was like.

Oh, that's true. It on Sunday? Yeah, it's like let's not have a brouha about the whole thing. No, I think it was this morning. Was it? Oh, maybe you're right. I don't even. I mean, Kevin Danger's in town.

I think we know what Greg was doing on Sunday. If he doesn't even remember sending this, but. Hey, I was, uh, I was the assistant coach, uh, the season finale for, uh, the Dodgers, the LA Dodgers Walker Rosenthal. Was this, was this, was this? No, this was this morning. This was this morning. Was it just us? I don't know.

Who cares? All right. Here's, um, here's one. Wait, I'm checking. Josh McDaniel's retaining. That's fun. I don't know, my bad. Mike McDaniel retaining.

Here's the thing, though, Mark writes like, that's fun or it sounds good. like no matter what the idea is. Right. That's true. Well, that's, it's kind of why I wanted to bring this whole thing up because I think our listeners will enjoy the personal dynamics. So I have no memory of what's occurred in the past. All right, I'm taking me all.

Go ahead. All right, here's another one. Mike McDaniel, Dolphins coach, retaining defensive coordinator, Josh Boyer, top five sneaky big moves of the off season that no one's talking about. I flat out agree with you because the other thing is you get a new scheme. That's a spicy meatball.

Ten new players. We're still workshopping. Their defense was good. I don't know if it's a spicy meeple, but you look at that defense. Every year I do this exercise, every year I think this team doesn't really look, this roster doesn't really look that good. And then I'm more down on the dolphins than I should be. And then Flores and Boyer, because you've got to give Boyer some credit.

He was a coordinator, somehow make the parts bigger than the some of their parts are bigger. And if you look at this defense, it's mostly the same guys. They brought back similar guys. They added some young talent. They kept the same coordinator. New first time how it coach, that's a little unorthodox. It actually, I think, shows a little self-confidence that this is a smart thing. Just keep this together because they always end up performing better than you think.

On paper, I look at them, they're like, okay. You know what you never see? And it would be the next level of, like, removing ego from all of this and just truly wanting this team to thrive. What if Vic Fangio had said, look, I'm cool. Well, stay as your defense coordinator. Keep that in place and let Hackett do the same thing. I know that just never happens.

But in this case, I'm with you. I thought McDaniel basically said, let's lean on our strength here. Take out all the things that we learned after the firing. And of course, the lawsuit that's going on right now involving Brian Flores and the Dolphins. Just what he was able to bring to that team, him leaving the door and he's a defensive-minded coach. It will be interesting to see if they are able to. continue to thrive with him gone. I like trying to keep the same system, though, and the same coach.

That's great for the players, number one. I should say, like, their front seven could be kind of fun. Jalen Phillips, they got Van Ginkle and Melvin Ingram are their kind of edge rushers. You have Agba, you have Wilkins, like, that's pretty good. But the secondary could be special. Zavian Howard again back, Byron Jones, great number two. And then Javon Holland, who really flashed as a rookie safety. And then they like Brandon Jones.

But like, that's four guys who you think could be difference makers in the same second day. I'm not saying anything critical about Miami because I feel like the last couple shows I brought up negative things about them. Certainly there's a path here where the defense plays well. Right. Two, it takes the next step and this is an 11 win. I feel like their defense has been under the radar. That's sort of what haven't we talked about yet this off season? I know someone who's been very critical of them and we're about to talk to him in a few minutes.

And I would like to ask my question about it. He was at Dolphins OTAs last week. Wow. All right. Good teeth. All right, Gregie, give us another one. Okay, the Cowboys defense. I kind of forgot how good the Cowboys defense was most of the last year.

Do you guys remember that? They were number two in defense. I mean, they had a good year. It ended in very Cowboys fashion. I sort of forgot about that. After a disastrous year of the prior. Right. And I was going into this thinking like it's been a really bad off season for them.

You know, they lost Randy Gregory, too, on defense and secondary above, blah, blah. There's still some good pieces there. But here's the take, which is that their defense comes down. to Neville Gallimore and Osadigizua making a big leap. And those two guys are capable of making a big leap. If those two guys make a big leap, both defensive tackles, they could be right back there as one of the best defenses in the league. You, again, here's that word, that S word.

You said they could be special, you wrote. DeMarcus Lawrence and Michael Parsons there. And the Randy Gregory absence, you don't see as a killer for them potentially. I mean, how many useful periods of football has Randy Gregory ever given you? I can go find them. There was about 300 to 400 snaps at once. It happened in 2017, and then it happened for a stretch last year. Then he got hurt and he came back and he wasn't really the same at the end of the year.

He's never played more than 500. I think that loss has been overstated. And they have these two young guys who I like, Odigie Zua, look great last year. Gallimore, I thought was great as a rookie. You didn't see it as much. So you have those two guys. You have Lawrence and Parsons, maybe the best duo in the league. You brought in Dante Fowler.

You got Doris Armstrong who's done some things. It's like, that's a great group. And on paper, the rest of the defense doesn't get me jazzed. But they're all pretty young. And they were all there last year when it was going so well. So I can't like get too down on that. I had in my notes, I had something about the Cowboys I wanted to discuss. And I'm glad you hit on it because I'm giving this an eight out of ten.

in terms of spicy meatball. Okay. Because there's been so much critical talk of the Cowboys this spring that I feel like it's going too much the other way where you look at this roster. It's like, okay, yes, maybe the wide receiver group isn't as good as it used to be. Maybe the offensive line is long in the tooth now. But there is certainly a path where this team again wins that division. That's a double digit win team.

I think we assume this is going to be a. down cycle year for Dallas because that just feels the way the temperature is. That's probably where I'll land, but the pieces are there to be good. Well, I think also like the division they're in could inflate you to extra wins to get into a wild card if they don't manage to

knock out Philly in that thing. But Dan Quinn made this all work. It's the same system. And I'm with you. I don't think the defense needs to have a bigger falloff. I think the perception around Dallas was the way they mishandled and have mispaid certain players on offense. That had a lot to do

this. It's mostly the offense. And I'm pretty basic with my concerns there. And I think there are concerns. But the defense, I kind of forgot. Like, you look at the cornerbacks and yeah, Trayvon Diggs picked off a lot of passes, but you're not like that excited. But they, they perform pretty well. Malik Hooker and J. Ron Curse, where their safety is not big names, but they played quite well last year. Um, yes. And, you know, Zeke Elliott, you note here, this is most likely his final season in Dallas. And I don't, maybe he's not as explosive as he once was. But there's a chicken and egg situation here because the offensive line isn't as good as it once as either. So you take him maybe lost a step.

The offensive line is taking a step back. That's become a very ordinary running game on some levels. But maybe he also cedes some playing time as the maybe it becomes more of a tandem approach straight up at this point in the game with Tony Pollard. All right. Anything else, Greg? All right. Let's just do some rapid takes here. I'm just going to throw out a bunch and maybe you can you can pick which is the spicy.

You and I go back and forth, and we just give a number after his take. Okay, I was going to say the spiciest meatball of the group, but okay, we could do that. We'll go rapid fire. Gary, Rashon, Gary, all pro. Can I just say one last thing? Yeah. I'm sorry again about the text, Snap-O. That was okay.

I don't think that we just blame you. I can understand how it happened. I also thought it happened yesterday and it was this morning. All right. There you go. Start. Rashon Gary, all pro. Season.

Coming. 8.5. Okay. That's a spicy meatball. That's an eight and a half. Okay. George Karloftus, rookie pass rusher, the key to the chief's defense. I mean, these are spicy. Now we're getting somewhere. That's a nine. The key. One of the keys. Do you want to give a little nug along with these? I don't know. I kind of like just through it's been like all positive press press press. I just feel like their pass rush looks like a big problem if he does not deliver.

And PFF loves this. Like I like this type of player. He reminds me a little bit of a Marcus Davenport, Jedevian, and Clownie type. So I think he's going to do well. Maybe not Superstar, but do well. But they really need him. Otherwise, I don't know, man. This is what Andy Reid had to say about him. He goes 100 miles an hour, walkthroughs everything. We had to slow him down.

He's relentless. He's had glowing reports and shorts. The Broncos, if you added up the skill position players and pass rushers, they have the most quality players in the league at those spots. Look at you. Say this categories again. Skill position players and pass rushers. Like if you're at,

Adding up who has the most of both of those combined quality. I mean, you just sort of slammed Randy Gregory, but, uh, yeah, but like I'm saying like quality players. I'm not saying top five guys, but like quality players. And then that team went and got a potential Hall of Fame quarterback. Mm-hmm. 7.8 because I think I do, I do feel like we thought the Broncos were ready to go minus quarterback those two position groups.

Like, like, they have about like six pass rushers and that, you know, most teams have I really want to see Jerry Judy take a big leap this year. We all see it as a possibility. What was that? Broncos country. Let's ride. That's one of the Russes. Eagles, backups on the lines better than a lot of starters.

Both lines. We know you like that. And then finally, this is just more of a statement. I'm looking forward to watching the New York Giants play offensive football. You know what? Let me say, and that's a pretty spicy meatball from you. That's a 10. after what happened in 42 and again in 46.

46 here or more. People don't believe me, but it's just the truth. I saw that. It definitely caught my eye that you were speaking somewhat positively. And there is, I feel like the Cadarius Tony army out there, the Tony army. It's just me and Josh Norris, but I know that's probably the other person thinking about. I guess he would be the X-factor because they kind of, they could use someone that kind of breaks free. and you made the good point

like who's like the outside threat in that group of Sterling Shepard Wondell Robinson and Cadarious Tony like how does that break down and does Daniel Jones have the ability to make the most of these guys They need Ghaladay to step up

Well how about they have for like the first season in half a decade you don't lose like 1,400 combined snaps by potential starters on your offense well that's out of their control unless you want to get a strength and conditioning coach on the show next week. No, I do not wish to.

What would he tell us? Oh, I thought you were saying there were injuries. Those guys are good talkers. I am suggesting that a healthy Giants team would have been watchable in years past to some degree. That could be, this guy gets it, a good app. Like, injury management. I see those more as like 45-second long PSAs

that just, you know, play before you watch a real video. Well, I think if you're starting this new feed, You want to think, like, what can get the most attention in downloads? And I think going through season by season, old Giants rosters and seeing what injury impacts they had. That could be it. The number one tenant of this show, news-wise, was always be looking forward. So it would be a massive pivot from what's made this successful.

Yeah, so stay tuned. This guy gets it with Mark Sessler. Also, still potentially in the mix. Yeah, it's Mark Cessler. Not in the mix. Still in the mix. Not in the mix. I'm with myself also.

That was more, that was a spot for a I'm annoyed now drop, Gravedegger, just so you know. I'm annoyed now. There you go. All right. I'm having a weird day. Check out NFL.com slash projected starters. Always a great read and a good way to bone up. Gross.

Let's take a break and then get to Mr. Mike Westoff. Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now, I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL Cover Zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that?

Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here.

And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig into coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture.

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We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome back. Our guest today is one of my all-time favorites on the sidelines in the NFL. Great run is the Jets Special Teams coach from 2001 to 2012, but he has a 32-year career.

He now retired with the Colts, Dolphins, Jets, and Saints. Bethel Park, PA Native, and now he's got a new book out called Figure It Out, my 32-year journey while revolutionizing pro football special teams. It's Mike Westoff. Welcome to around the NFL, Mr. Westoff. Oh, thanks, guys. I'm happy to be here. This is, let's start with the, let's start with the subhead of the book.

Yeah, that's a good place. We love you for your candor, and you've always been a guy that spoke in your mind, and this is what the kids would call a flex. When you say, my 32-year journey while revolutionizing pro football, all special teams. Yes. What did you bring?

I know this is kind of a broad question, but this is where we can start. What was it that you brought that was different from the way special teams were before you kind of established yourself and made yourself such a star in that realm? Okay. I'll give you two answers to it.

First of all, I had nothing to do with writing that. I love it. Just own it. You know, you did it. You revolutionized. This is a Jets fan in Dan here. He agrees, you know? That's written by the publisher as he went through.

And here's the way he looked at what happened. That's what he put there. So I'm okay with it. The other question is, what did I have to do with it? Pretty much everything. Oh, I love it. What do the detail? What does that mean, though?

Like, what do you think you change? What's a lasting impact? Okay, I'll give it to you. When I first started in the job in 1982 with Frank Bush, I was hired with Frank, and it's a great story. And you have to read that one. But I was the Frank had jobs available. He needed a strength coach, a guy that might help with special teams,

needed a tight ends coach, all right, assistant offensive line coach, someone to help him. He said, I'm not sure how to do this. I said, I'll do them all. Give them all to me. Now, I didn't do any of them very well, to tell the truth. But I said them all. So I started.

And then we were in our first year, and we played two games. and went on strike. The players were on strike. I was out for a jog one day and came across Frank. And he said, come on, walk with me.

I want to talk to you. He said, I'm going to fire our special teams coach. He said, Mike, he's terrible. I said, don't fire him.

He's helping the defense. I'll take it. Let me take it over. Well, yeah, good news, Mike. Thanks a lot. I knew nothing. I didn't know a thing

about special teams. What I realized in a hurry, he gave me a notebook. A notebook should have come with crayons. It was terrible. But anyway, so I started this. And what I found out in a hurry was that there were no special team coordinators in fact

then. It was divided up among the staff. There was very little, if any, creativity and that type of thing, very little. It was just very not, it was not innovative. And there was also almost no regulation. So you can try everything. So what I did, I developed philosophy. I wanted to have a coverage team, emulate a defense.

And I wanted to blitz. My defense was going to blitz. So I went to Bud Pearson, one of the great defensive coordinators in NFL history. I said, Bud, take me through the perimeters of blitzing. I patterned my kickoff coverage after that. I believe anybody would tell you that was the toughest coverage to ever go against. We were really good at it. And it presented a problem.

Then as an offensive coach, I thought, well, okay, what am I going to pick off return? What's this to be like? Well, I wanted it to be a power off tackle running play. So I double teamed and I tracked. My kickout was a wedge. I learned how I cut the back side off just like an offensive line would have to do. And I patterned it after that. And we broke pretty much most of the records.

So, you know, it worked. And that's how I developed myself as a special team's coach and a coordinator. But I came along at the right place and the right time. I helped. It was part of it. I think I had an integral part of taking it to a pinnacle. It has since, because of rule changes, et cetera, it's become, you know, it's gradually deleted out a little bit, you know, have the number of plays.

So things are vastly different. But I believed I was part of that rise. Also, there were a great number of other coaches that jumped right in with us, and we took it to a point of real prominence. And it was fun to be a part of, and that's what I wrote about. Coach, I've got to ask you something, because, you know, as we researched and looked at this book and some of the quotes coming out of it and some of the stuff that you wrote, I mean, it's obviously very rich with your time with the New York Jets.

You talk about Tim Tebow in a very pointed way. you've got some stuff on Eric Manjini, Rex Ryan, the whole caboose. But I read that you had to utilize your girlfriend as what you called a dial-down instructor because some of your takes and some of your anecdotes were a little too hot for the public. Is that true? That's correct. Let's bring them out now, Mike, if you could. No, I won't do that.

I would read parts to her almost every night. And sometimes she would say, you know, Mike, we might have dial that down a little bit. for the most part, I actually did help me with that because I'm not afraid. I'm not trying to be, you know, overcritical. I try to be very fair. I mean, some of the things don't, you know, some of the things got a little bit misunderstood, like with Tim Tebow. I'll give you a real quick one. Tim Tebow is what he is. You know, he was, he's a marginal quarterback at best. He's a He's a Heisman trophy winner that deserved to win it, in my opinion. He managed what he had exceptionally well. Now, when we signed Tim Tebow, it was.

under the premise that he would be a multi-talented guy to play a number of positions and be like a wildcat quarterback. He was going to play for me on my punt team because I could do all the fakes with him. I'm the only one that upheld that part of the bargain. I used them and he did a great job with me. Tim Tebow was not part of the problem. Tim Tebow is what he is.

Is he a starting quarterback in the NFL? I don't believe so. And Bill Belichick had the same opinion. Ask him, you don't believe. me that he did the same thing. They let him go. But that was the reality of the situation. And we never used to have a foul on offense. So in my opinion, that was very, very much much misused. And the team ball was only part of that equation. That always felt to me, Mike, as a Jets fan, an example of one hand, not washing the other, where you knew ownership, perhaps,

and certain figures in the organization, oh, let's get this kid in the building will be the story of the league. And then the coaching staff, for the most part, you had a default. fine role for him that you used. I remember him being the punt protector in that role throughout the season. It became pretty apparent that he didn't really have a role on that offense. And that reminded me of when I think about that era of Jets football, when things really started to snowball in the wrong direction and the team really went downhill in a hurry, I always think of that time with Tebow. I'm also curious, your career ended in 2000, after the 2018 season, Mike, the final game, I guess, that you coached, Saints, Rams, NFC title game. A game that you've said before

was the toughest loss of your long career, and that, of course, was the Nickel Robie Coleman game between the Saints and Rams. Was it difficult to go out in that manner? And was there a part of you that said, I can't go out with a game that painful when you had a Super Bowl window there? Take us through that a little bit. I didn't see it that way. It was time for me to go. I had coached 32 years. That was a very good football team. We had taken that team kind of to its peak, which I'm correct in that assessment. Drew was, Drew had had a great career and was leveling just a tiny bit, but, you know, such a great player.

I think Sean Payton is an absolute excellent football coach. As I wrote about my book, he's the best on-the-field teacher I ever saw. Trust me, I used to sit there on Thursday and watch him design a play. I'd see the exact same thing all Sunday. exact. That's how deliberate he is in his teaching. So that for me was, you know, I felt that team, I felt the year before that we could have gone when we had the Minnesota miracle to beat us. That was a good football team that had fought its way. And that team needed to go to the Super Bowl. And I didn't get that chance. I was disappointed. For me, personally, it was one of the,

I felt that they had a real weapon on their punt team and when they ran face. They were very good at it. I researched it. I went back and studied everything they did all the way into St. Louis. I think I came up with my best individual game plan that I've ever designed. I had them nailed. I had five defensive linemen. Every time they were going to pump the ball, we were in his face. I brought a seven-man front.

We were going to double the wide guy, the flyer or gunner, as you call him, to our right side, where he always wanted the phone. For our left side, where he liked to throw his face. I took my corner and moved him inside. and I backed them off five yards. Just to back pedal, and if they did throw the fake, he could attack it because if you throw out a punt formation to the wide receiver, there's no pass interference penalty.

And I practiced it. I had Teddy Bridgewater, throw the ball. I was totally prepared for it. I made a mistake. I made a mistake with that corner. I took a corner who was really a proactive player. He's the guy that could fly in the direction. and I put him in

a reactive position and when I look back now they ran a fake we all know it's coming we're all screaming fake fake fake fake but as this corner went back as he did a hundred times in practice now when he planned to go after

the wide guy the receiver he turned his back he made a mistake I should have flopped the course we would kill now it only was only in three points but the way I'm looking at the game that was tough for me I'm the one that made it, no one else.

And I did that. The plan that I had, one of the best plans I ever designed. I thought was brilliant. I love that taking us behind because, yeah, that was kind of a forgotten play. I'm totally with you. I think that 2017 to 2019 Saints team, unfortunately for Saints fans, I think is going to go down as one of the best teams to ever not win a Super Bowl, that little three-year kind of late breeze stretch.

But the way you're talking about, like your matchup with Bones Fossil, the Rams coordinator at that time, special teams. It gets to what you were talking about and how you revolutionize the sport, and that's what football is kind of all about, is like specialization. That's why Bill Belichick always tries to talk about Paul Brown as the guy who changed the game more than anyone because he made it more specialized. And you are kind of part of that evolution of the game, making it more specialized, drilling down. You are someone who coached against Bill Belichick for most of your career, a lot of your career.

You were with Miami for 15 years and he was in New England for part of that as a coordinator and then certainly when you were with the Jets and everything and I know he has a big love for special teams and he approaches it differently. How are those matchups to you? How were you guys like different

as special teams' minds and what kind of stands out to you about your battles with Belichick over the years? He was much more conservative than I was. He was going to make every effort to not let that part of the game beat him. He knew he knew he had. had the big advantage on offense with Tom Brady.

He was going to make sure that I didn't do much against him. I feel if you added up against each other, I come out way ahead. I got pretty good. I love that. But he's tough to be because he's smart. And he knows, you know, he's very disciplined. And a lot of times I'd be doing all kinds of shifting things on our punt team. And he'd be yelling safe, safe.

The only reason I was going it, that I didn't have a punter to come to all out of his bedroom. So I was just trying to level the playing field. And it worked. It helped me out. And so we were able to get. him a few times and do some things against them, but I have tremendous respect as to how he handles and coaches the game. They're very well coached football team. I love going against them because it was such a challenge. But a quiet flex there. You wipe the floor with him,

you just said. You know, you got your points in there against them. I like it. I got, coach, I got to ask you another one. Like, so you're, I know you're comfortable retiring, but you were just at Dolphins OTAs recently. And a lot of people are high. eye on the Dolphins because they think Mike McDaniels, you know, a boy genius ready to unleash. But you are not very impressed from comments I read about what you saw from the offense the day you were there. No, I wasn't. Now, don't get me wrong.

You know, we're talking, it's a mini-camp. They rescheduled their OTAs in their mini-camps. So it's a minicap practice. I know that it's early. I know that they don't have their game plan in for their opening day. I totally understand that. But what I also know is that. game plan that I watch being executed should be opening first to second day of minicamp.

I want to see the mini camp game plan executed. I've been on the field in my career with some pretty good quarterbacks. Don't forget, Amarino, Drew Brees, Brett Farrb, you know, Chad Pennington when he was pretty doggone good, Vinnie Tescoverti. So I've been on the field for a lot of very good offensive practices. In my opinion, I saw very little, which resembled anything of a good offensive practice. I just didn't see it. Now, is it going to come later?

Sure it can. Sure it can. But I didn't see it. And that's what was disappointing. Do I want to see opening game performance? No, I don't. But I don't want to see what I saw. I was very disappointed that that wasn't better than what I.

I thought it would be better than that. I was disappointed. Well, earlier in the show, we had some positive thoughts about the Dolphins roster. now there's a little yin and yang in there. Dolphins fans can look ahead and know there's a lot of football to be played between now and September. All right, Mike, did you, last thing I have to ask, because I'm a big Parcells guy, and the part in your book kind of broke my heart a little bit because I remember seeing you at, you know, Hofstra with Bill and the situation that happened with you going down to Miami with your friend to watch practice.

and then you came back with the Jets and Parcells. He sends the letter to the league complaining about you being there, even though you're under contract with the Jets, all sloppy. And I think you called it in the book. Yeah, I know what I called it. You called it, a chicken shit-and-shoulder that the Parcells wrote. That's right. Have you guys spoken since that happened?

Or did that end the relationship? It ended it the second he did it. Wow. And I had a good relationship with him. I always looked at him as kind of a big brother. And when I went over there, I was wrong because I was still under contract. Now, I was totally gone from the Jets, and they hired a new coach. I wasn't in the press guy.

But I went over because after the surgery worked so well, I knew I could now come back to the coach. So all of a sudden, wait a minute, I don't have to retire. I'm coming back. So I went and visited some camps. And I went over and visited with Bill. He and I sat in a golf cart the entire day. We ate lunch together. I wrote him a thank you letter.

I talked to his head coach about what I saw in practice. And then all of a sudden, the jets signed Brett Far. Then they pressured me to come back. They want me to come back. I didn't want to go. They offered me a ton of money. I turned it down. Now, when I went to visit them, I was wrong, not Bill.

I was wrong because you really can't go to a. camp if you're under contract. He didn't know that, but I didn't know it either. And I'd never done it. I just, you know, I just worked to watch practice. The one thing I didn't do is I didn't go over there to cheat. For him to write a letter like that was totally inappropriate. And so I blew up. Now, I coached the game. And if I don't coach the game, then it looks like I did go over there to cheat. And it was, you want to call it? Yeah, it was a fucking shit letter. I could push the letter. Then you wouldn't have any argument because you'd know. But I didn't do that. that. The one chicken

thing was enough. That's what I let it go with that. And that's exactly how I felt I've never talked to him. If I ever knew to talk to him, and it wouldn't be even beginnings of a pleasant conversation. I'll leave it go with that.

Passionate football, man. Did your girlfriend convince you not to put the letter in the book? No, I know. She had nothing to do with it. She never struck. Mike, thank you so much for your time. This is going to be a great summer read

on the beach, whether you're on the Jersey Shore or wherever. You can get the book right now and figure it out at mascotbooks.com right now. And then everywhere else, Amazon and anywhere else that carries books, July 12th. Mike Westoff, thank you so much for joining us. And good luck and enjoy retirement. You certainly earned it. A lot of fun talking to you today. Okay, guys. Thank you, too. I was enjoying it. Thanks, my coach. There we go.

Most of it. I love that man. He was, he always spoke his mind and you hear it there. Kind of reminded me of my dad on certain topics when my dad Keith gets, starts to get fired up, talking about something that has annoyed him or someone that upsets him. You can actually hear it doesn't matter when the story happened as he's telling the story again, that kind of aggressive anger about it. And that's what we heard with Parcells.

I know. Part of me wants them to, you know, make good before one of them's gone. But, yay, sometimes you're just done with a person in your life. Maybe that's just as healthy to just be like, I made that decision. That's over. Did he say he was only happy with most of the conversation? Yeah, he probably... Well, yeah, I'd love to know what made him unhappy.

Well, maybe it was like bringing up some of these memories. I wish I kept my mouth shut when I sort of like came back and was like, oh, but you stuck it to Belich. Maybe that was it. He's technically written a memoir, so it is technically based on memories. I love that because... If there was one point, it was like... person to make it awkward in this room. It would be Greg. It would be. I do love that. He was like, look, he was much more conservative than me. If you added it up, I had my way with him ultimately,

which is, that's what you want. Honestly, I mean, this guy, I love the history of the game. And he was with Jimmy, he was with Don, if we had all the time, we could have asked a lot of stuff. He was with Don Shula. Right. And then Jimmy Johnson. And he was in Miami that whole time. He was there for the end of Don Chula, and he was such a good assistant, and he did some offensive coaching, too, not just special teams, that when Jimmy Johnson came in, he saw both of those eras, just like a fascinating, like, those guys have all the best stories. And he sticks up for the people, the way that some people feel about the Rex Ryan led jets, that that behind the scenes, Rex Ryan was very different, very organized, and that

the special teams were the best in the league because of him. He's a great coach. He's a great coach. And I did want to ask him to run a little short on time, but I did want to ask him also, you know, if there would be, you know, famously the Nicol Roby Coleman play led to the failed pass interference rule change if there was anything in the game and special teams that he feels

they need to make adjustments on. But maybe that will be for the second time we speak with Mike if he chooses to join us again. It's hard out there for special teams coaches. He alluded to it. The rules are changing in such a way that they have a little less impact. and a little less flexibility than they used to be treated. It's all safety reasons. Start with kickoffs.

They're good reasons. But yeah, kickoffs have changed quite a bit. Yeah, and assistant coaches that I think multiple times in his career in the book, he talks about being approached by, you know, management. We want you to replace this guy that is our current special teams coach that we don't like. And it's like August 20th. And it's like the special teams coach is kind of a thankless gig where you get noticed more when you fail at it. But to Westoff's credit for that.

That instance he was talking about that led to the Parcell's fallout. The Jets wanted to fire the current special teams coach. And he said, no, I'll take over. But that guy's not going to be fired. He's going to stay. We'll make it work even if it's a little bit awkward looking out for his own positional group. That's how we do it for each other. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Maybe. Good up. Good up. We'll be back on Thursday. We've got a special show on Thursday. We're going to be on the road. It's a road show.

I mean, it's like. eight miles what is it how far is it i don't know we're going to west hollywood for the second annual pride cast with a cast of all stars including my brother kevin danger hands oh i like to hear that in the traveling party but also connie fox maybe a former producer with the show i think people can probably connect the dots on this one yeah probably can connect it and and just so you know i said graver uh give me a song that connects next with, in your mind, a pride cast show in West Hollywood. So let's turn this up.

This was Justin Graber's choice with Randy Chavez. Sterilize. This is where we need the producer camera in the back. They've all got their hands up. Mark, let's wash up again. All right. Mark and I are heading to the sterilization chamber. And we will see you on Thursday.

Thank you. everybody for listening until then heed the call great ending great ending hey everybody Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how

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