NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - 25 Players in 25 Years: Bill Barnwell on Nos. 3-1

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by ESPN's Bill Barnwell to reveal the top three players of NFL Daily's Top 25 Players of the Last 25 Years. Gregg and Bill start by discussing Pro Football Hall-of-Famer Peyton Manning (01:47), followed by Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes (19:45) and wrap up the list with quarterback Tom Brady (37:50). Note: time codes approximate Don't miss any of NFL Daily's Top 25 Players of the Last 25 Years where Gregg is joined by ESPN's Mina Kimes and Bill Barnwell, Yahoo! Sports' Nate Tice, NFL Network's Steve Wyche and Brian Baldinger and broadcasting legend Kevin Harlan to break down the best NFL players since the turn of the century.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

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Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to the sixth and final episode of the best 25 players of the last 25 years. NFL Daily has been doing it, and I'm going to have to say it. We're doing it well, and we're going to wrap with one of the best in the game, my friend, Bill Barnwell, and you got a nice slot in the schedule, Bill. You're doing the top three players of the last 25 years.

Was that an L.L. CoolJ reference in the intro? It was not planned, and it was, but that is, I think, perfect. Another guy who's been doing it, you know, for 25 years plus. Ask someone who was born in Queens. I feel like that represents me quite well. I love it. We got three more players to talk about. Our listeners could probably guess at this point who they are.

Before we even get into it, Bill, would you have anyone different in your top three? Would you have anyone different? A pretty clear top three. And certainly it feels like, you know, it's really easy to pick quarterbacks. And yet I think we've kind of been spoiled because we've had three quarterbacks

who have been so transcendent, especially, you know, two of the three guys we're going to mention being so incredibly successful that we almost sort of take it for granted that that's just sort of something you're going to have in the NFL

and history tells us that is not the case and I wouldn't be surprised if 10, 15 years from now maybe when NFL Daly is doing 50 for 50 that we see there is not that sort of truly transcendent,

constantly successful quarterback that we saw at least two of these three guys be over the past 25 years. Yeah, maybe, I mean, I would be 71 years old at that point. So, uh, cross our fingers. Let's go to number three. Number three, Peyton Manning.

Manning facing pressure. Manning looking, he takes a hit as he fires down field. He has a wide open receiver, Reggie Wayne out of a 10-5 touchdown. They were coming at Peyton Manning. He felt the pressure. He took a hit and was able to find a wide open Reggie Wayne. That's a 53-yard pass play. And I look back on my NFL career, I'll know without a doubt that I gave everything I had to help my teams walk away with a win.

There were other players who were more talented, but there was no one who could out prepare them. Most of the story that comes out of Payton's mouth is just playing chess with you and a lot of people play checkers with him. Disregard the Audible now. Disregard the Audible. Providence, Sopranos, Reno, Dipper Wright, Wisconsin, Guards. He's homeworm. Got Julius Thomas there. Thomas with a touchdown, and there's the record. Peyton Manning's 51st touchdown pass of the year. Move over Tom Brady. That chair belongs to Peyton Manning.

I fought a good fight. I finished my football race. And after 18 years, it's time. God bless all of you. And God bless football. No one talks, no one plays quite like Peyton Manning. And no one could say God bless football and actually make me feel.

emotional. Like, he straddles the perfect line between total devotion and absolute love for the sport, you know, very non-cheasiness almost, but it doesn't matter because he, like, he means it so much and you could see it like in everything that he did. Yeah. I mean, a player who did not need to come back from his neck injury, did not need to have that second norm with the Broncos, could very easily say, hey, I am good. I have won a Super Bowl. I have every record in the Colts, uh, you know, pretty much every record. I don't know about exactly every record, but certainly plenty of records for the Colts,

accomplished everything I want to accomplish, could have left the game on, instead came back and had an incredible second run with the Broncos that was depicted mostly there. I really think Payton is so hard to judge because he came up in the era of Brady. And we're going to see that with guys from this era. We're going to talk about Patrick Mahomes later on in this show

and guys like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson and judging them in context with, with Patrick Mahomes and his success. You were there, Greg. I was there. Other people were not there. I feel like people forget how much of the, just strictly how often those Brady Manning discussions occurred early on in Manning's career.

And then Manning, of course, sort of puts them aside by winning two championships, including one where he has an incredible comeback and derails Brady along the way. Right. It's crazy because you say that he, lived in the Brady era and I think how I experienced it in some ways for a while was it was more of the Manning era and

Peyton Manning was obviously better, faster and won more individual awards than Tom Brady did. He still did. Seven all pros first team. And that was in 11 years, including the year that he was out with the neck injury. So that's just a crazy, unprecedented

run of being the best quarterback in the game over a decade. Plus, five MVP's. three more second teams and a few more like top five MVP votes. So he kind of was the individual guy and as late as the Seahawks Super Bowl that Peyton Manning played in. And I think that was a big turning point for his career and for the Brady Manning debate, which, you know, I think ultimately Brady kind of put an end to. Yeah. But at that point, Bill, I want to direct you to the front of NFL.com. That very day, I remember there was a column by one of the best to do it. Judy

Batista, who was opining, like, if Manning wins this game, it kind of cements him as the goat. Because at that point in their careers, they're already late 30s. Like, Tom Brady and Manning are both late 30s. And you're just not even thinking what else Brady could possibly do at that point. And that if he had won that one, because at that point, he had just beaten Brady and Brady hadn't won a title in 10 years, it kind of felt like all the individual awards, plus another title against a great defense like Seattle, would put Manning over the top.

So it is a really interesting time and way to think about it because that is deep into their careers that it was still very much up for grabs. Yeah. And for whatever issues Manning had in the postseason earlier in his career, we did see some great games from him as time went on to come back win against the Patriots or that they went to win their first Super Bowl against the Bears.

I think one of the great lost games or forgotten games in NFL history, in 2009 playing that Jets defense with Ryan and Doravis, that peak defense AFC championship game, he goes for I think 377 and three touchdowns on what might be one of the two or three best defenses of the past 25 years and propels in the Super Bowl where they did lose

to the Saints. He obviously had some games that weren't as impressive as well. But I think that story, that idea that he wasn't able to do it in the postseason, he was able to eventually put to the aside. And, of course, the second Super Bowl run, he was, I mean, a shell of himself and still managed to do just enough and protect the football on way to winning that second title. And so he becomes difficult to sort of measure because I felt like, you know, he was more of a moving target. With Brady, because there was so much success early on in his career, he became defined really quickly.

So what Tom Brady does is win. Payton was more, it was more inconsistent. There was more of a, you know, yes, this guy is great, but yes, the story we told about him in 2002, is, different than it is in 2007, different in 2011, different in 2015. He evolved more, I think, in some ways, even though Brady might have evolved more on the field as a player. It's such a fascinating comparison, because all of that is totally true. And yet, when you think about who was the most consistent, I would say player, at any position over the course of what I think's the most valuable way to evaluate players, which is like a 16-game regular season sample,

I think it has to be Peyton Manning. And I know wins are not a quarterback stat, but he was like a walking 12-win season. The whole like football outsider's idea that offense is more consistent is almost, it's partly on Peyton Manning. You know what I mean? Like he he had a, I think it was a run. I wrote it down. Yeah, 11, 10 years out of 11, he, they won 12. games, which is just outrageous. And I think it's okay in this discussion. And I don't want to just talk about what's different because we're crowning him,

the third best player of the last 25 years. He is one of the greats of the greats. But I think it is okay to point out that the numbers did go down in the playoffs overall and that it was a big enough sample size for him, for Mahomes, spoiler, for Brady, and that they've played so much in the playoffs that the decline in Manning's numbers in the playoffs

are significant enough to matter. But what also matters is his influence, Bill, on the game. And I just think him orchestrating at the line of scrimmage and the way that their offense was simple but complex in the same way was just not just one of a kind, but a throwback to an era that he revered, you know, Johnny Unitas and a quarterback being kind of the orchestrator and really was a little different. the Bill Walsh era, where the quarterback was running the offense that was called or the Brett Favre type of play where it's more about improvisational. And this was

Peyton Manning, I think having an influence on the game at large, including Tom Brady. I think he was actually an influence on Tom Brady. And then certainly Aaron Rogers and Mahomes and Joe Burrow, like the type of quarterbacks that we see now. Yeah, Rogers especially. That feels like the most obvious one to be because we talked about Rogers last year with some of the criticisms of how he wanted more of an antiquated offense. He wanted more static stuff with the line of scrimmage. He wanted to pick people apart, you know, not with using motion, not with turning us back and play. Actually, they had a little bit of that. You know, he wanted static defenses and wanted to pick defenses apart. That's what Peyton Manning wanted to. He wanted to know, okay, what are

our answers when we're going to get blitz from certain sides? But he did really want to get to the line a scrimmage and then figure things out from there. And it's hard to overstate maybe how simplistic the Colts offense was, like the sheer number of plays they ran. They might have like eight, ten past concepts in their playbook. They might have, you know, a few runs. They're mostly his own team in an hour where a lot of teams were primarily zone teams. But it was how those plays mesh together with Tom Moore's influence, how Peyton called

them at the line, how he knew, you know, how he read them so quickly. how they had stuff at the line they could check to and change to if it wasn't a great defensive look. He got them in good looks so often at the line of scrimmage that then he was so often facing really simplistic or really basic coverages, which he then exploited.

And he had great players to take advantage of those as well. Now, I actually thought about this. I think I want to know what you think about it with Payton. You know, I think about this idea of, okay, how would a Panamanning offense look today? How would he play today? Not that it's been that. long since he retired, but it's still been about a decade.

If defenses have evolved a bit, you know, would he do as well in an era where defenses are much better at disguising their intentions, there's much more post-snap movement, you know, you have more sim pressures, more stuff that you're trying to confuse and disguise your looks and take advantage of weaknesses in protection, maybe he struggles with that. Maybe he benefits from playing in an era where, you know, when you hit those big plays, maybe you're hitting more big plays. And this was a guy who I think one of the criticisms are one of the things that happened in that offense

was there were moments where he laid out guys over the middle of the field. You think about Austin Colley's career. Dallas Clark comes to mind as well, guys who were getting hit a lot over the middle of the field. That's not happening nowadays. You're not taking those same hits over the middle of the field. Maybe he'd have more advantages on those seam rats

on throws over the middle of the field on those digs. I think it would have been a different kind of quarterback, but I still think he would have been great. Yes. I thought about that question too, because you just don't see a quarterback, you don't see guys coming up from college with the lack of athleticism that mainly, or Brady had. It just doesn't happen in terms of the type of speed.

But I still think he would be as successful. I just don't think football will ever evolve to a point where a guy who can win before the snap and after the snap and throw as accurately and prepare with his receivers in such a way will ever be totally out of style. Maybe naturally he would somehow be more athletic because those quarterbacks just don't happen.

He would just maybe be working on his body more. I don't even know what would be different. But you said how the defenses are just so much more complicated now and all the different things. And that's absolutely true. And in a way, I think that would make him greater because the quarterback that can understand and beat all of that and almost get outside of a like McVe tree type of,

understanding of one to two to three, I think their intellect would be even more of an advantage. So I still think he would just be Peyton Manning. And when you think about great players, Bill, you think about who makes the players around them better. And I think that's on game day. And I think that's in their practice regime too. And you just hear from every Colts player and the attention to detail of like how on top of things they had to get to be with Peyton Manning. Clyde Christensen, his longtime coach said, he hated showing up for a meeting with Peyton Manning and just feeling unprepared. Like, coaches going against Manning.

They don't talk about going against Jim Caldwell or Tom Moore. Rex Ryan and Belichick talk about it gave them nightmares that have to go against Manning. He was essentially the coach. But think of all the players that he made better. Like, is Jeff Saturday winning 6-7 all pros or Tariq Glenn? Like, he made their offensive linemen better with the way that he got rid of the ball. But like, you can go through every guy who caught the ball from him, Reggie Wayne and

Marvin Harrison. but also like a Demarius Thomas and Eric Decker. Like Eric Decker was at his best. You showed a Julius Thomas clip in the video in the introduction. Right. Like that to me is kind of the ultimate quarterback and football great ability is to make guys better. So I'm glad you brought up the Broncos in that second act.

Let's actually listen to a play with a guy just talked about the late great Demarius Thomas. Third and along three. going deep. He's got Thomas. Goodbye. Touchdown. 63 yards, Peyton Manning.

It's the all-time highest-scoring offense in the history of pro football. And Manning authors, a beauty, a 63-yarder, to Tamerius Thomas. He has so many records, Bill. I sort of forget that one, highest-scoring offense in history. That's a great example of, like,

when you think of his quote-unquote shortcomings, like his mobility or whatever and like arm strength compared to the best of the best, like that show, that is a great clip to show how great he was with the subtle movements in the pocket and throwing what he needed to at the last second and that with his timing and his anticipation,

maybe the best anticipator in NFL history. Yeah, I mean, you don't need to move a ton if you know where you're going with the football. You might only have to take a step or two in the right direction to make those throws. You don't need to scramble, create a structure if you're so good within structure that nobody can stop you. And you brought up Belichick and Rex Ryan and that preparation.

I think what made it so tough to play Peyton Manning and play the Colts is just that it wasn't like they had new stuff. It wasn't like, you know, the offense changed from year to year. I remember Chris Brown, my colleague at Grantland at the time, wrote a great piece about how the Broncos basically just installed the Colts offense after he struggled early in that run in Denver. I get a couple, get a game against the Falcons where I think it threw a pick six or two early on

and they were struggling and they just got back to the same concepts to Colteran and they were just fine and had one of the best seasons NFL history the following year on offense. That, to me, I think, made him so tough to stop because you really knew what was coming. It was really never a disguise thing. It was just, you know,

you were not able to stop these concepts because they were so good at running them. They were so efficient. They were quietly good running the ball because he'd always get them in good spots to run the football. And then, you know, he was getting rid of the ball so quickly that it was really hard to take him down consistently. So he really negated the pass rush in a lot of ways.

He was, you know, the players he was working with, especially in Indian, Denver, he had some players that, you know, he developed relationships. But in Indy, I mean, he worked with Marvin Harrison for so long. Reggie Wayne for so long, Dallas Clark for so long. Brandon Stokely, in both spots. Yeah, he was great in both spots. You had that core of guys that I felt like, you know, they just had such strong relationship. that he knew they were going to make the right adjustments to their routes every single time. Yeah. I just think, you know, hearing that clip to start it too, just like, no one loved

the game more. And when I think of influence too, I do think of the way he carried himself. It would drive our friend Chris Wessling crazy. He thought he thought Peyton Manning ushered in this entire new era of the quarterback as boring spokesperson. I always thought he was like a little hard on Payton. I just think that's who he was, was this kind of foxy guy. But he also knew, he also knew from his dad to what the NFL was like. And I think he was always very careful not to take like a wrong step. And then we saw with the commercials and with SNL and now with the Manning cast that he's like, he's just is like football. If I had to think of like one person that's football, it's, it's probably Peyton Manning. Yeah. I mean, he feels like the football dad.

like he is the he is universally coaching all of us to learn a little more about football and that that's i think you know his legacy is going to be this guy who um you know i i think really represented football in this generation even more than the people we're going to talk about because you know as good as they were on the field it feels like you know we're going to be hearing hayden talk about football for another 30 years at this point i think he's going to be the closest thing that this generation has to a John Madden maybe in terms of, you know, how frequently and how well he talks about the game. And so that may turn out to be totally false. I might just be, you know, being a good company man here and suggesting that you should

turn on the Manning cast. But realistically, I just think, you know, he's become such a ubiquitous figure after his career in a way that even Tom Brady, who's doing commentary for Fox every week now, it's not. And don't get it twisted. Like, he was cold as a player. He won five freaking MVP's. Like, that 35 to 14 comeback in four minutes against the bucks, that stands out to me. They were a walking comeback.

They were one of the best comeback teams because they were such a explosive, quick offense compared to what their competition was. So just one of the best to do it. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and reveal number two. Hey, this is Matt Jones. And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts pretzel?

That was my other big takeaway from that. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly. exactly what you're going to get. Listen NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL.

Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices, constructs. winning rosters. Every week we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find

anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a die-hard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give

you the full picture. If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Fiorio, and together we host the NFL fantasy football podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL, visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily's best 25 players of the last 25 years, you probably figured out our next guy, a guy who, on the around the NFL podcast, it only took about one season as a starter before we started comparing him to Jordan. Number two, Patrick Mahomes. Go out there and take that every single snap, everything you've got for the God beside you, And we're going to find a way to get a win. First and goal.

Mahomes flings at Super Bowl. It's there. Hartman, Jackpot, Kansas City. And the game-winning drive of Mahomes' career, he's been waiting before he's won Super Bowls, but he's never had it in an overtime. He is the best. He is the standard.

Your Michael Jordan wins it again. Winning football games makes you a villain. We're going to keep going out there and doing it. Chiefs need some Mahomes magic. launches down the middle hill open caught and they get it Kansas City the big play what Tom has done is historic but if there was a player who could do it it would be Patrick but I've been blessed to be in a lot of great football teams with a lot of great coaches and a great organization and I just try to maximize every moment because you never

know when's going to be your last one I know I'm a long way from Tom so I'll try to do whatever I can to get close to that Patrick Mahomes coming in at number two. And that clip, Bill, has a moment in Patrick Mahomes' first Super Bowl, where it's third and 15. They're down 20 to 10. And at that point in the game, he's thrown two picks without a touchdown. And it's a reminder with Manning, with Brady, with Rogers and Breeze,

who we've talked about. The margins are so slim. Like, nothing was promised. But Patrick Mahomes has so many of those. moments where it is third and 15 and he makes a throw just a few others in NFL history could make. Greg, I remember that game very well

because I picked the Niners to win that game. Same. I felt so smart. Up to that exact moment. And then I just, the ball dropped. I was just, oh no. I'm going to have to spend the next whatever minutes of this game hoping Patrick Mahomes doesn't do

exactly what Patrick Mahomes does. And I swore in that moment, I would never pick against the Chiefs again in the Super Bowl. just a game where he was not good to the vast majority of that game and then lights out. I think he hits Semi Watkins

for a touchdown pass later on in that game. And actually, I'm interested in what you think hearing what Tony Romo said because Romo described that drive against the Niners as like a signature drive for Patrick Mahomes.

And I would certainly say that's fair. I think that bro, what I remember Peter King found the name was it, Wasp, the name of the name that play. You know, that 3rd and 15 wasp throw, maybe one of his most

famous throws that scramble for a touchdown against the Tennessee Titans and the AFC Championship game earlier that year, maybe one of his most famous runs. But it's interesting that I don't know that we have like a signature Mahomes game in some ways. I thought that was a little bit of a stretch because he was like,

he finally did it in overtime. He finally got the game winning drive. And I guess that's true. But I think of the drive against the Eagles. You got to get points to win the Super Bowl. And he is not 100 percent. And he does what he's done so many times in his career, which is get a big time run in the spot that you actually need it. While we're talking about it, let's look at another one of those earlier in that run. Second in nine Kansas City in the red zone at the Texan 15 yard left. Mahomes on the far hash in the pocket stepping up and trying to squeeze three states on his feet. 10. Five. Mahomes is

into the end zone. Touchdown. Kansas City on that bad ankle, stepping through the pocket, running all the way to the sweet neckler of the end zone. It's just so reminiscent of so many moments, like whenever you think Mahomes is down a little bit. I said, I remember early, even in his first season, and we'll kind of back up and talk about, like, his journey. But even in his first season, he always ran just fast enough to kill you. Like every first down run he had felt like it was an absolute killer. And that shouldn't get lost in the total alchemy of like what has made him so great. Yeah, I think his instinct for when to run, how much space he has on the sideline, how much space he has to pick up a first down is just so impeccable. You certainly

see a lot of guys who are faster, a lot of guys who are more athletic and who can run. for first downs and do so, and there's something wrong with doing that. But I just think Baham's ability to sort of figure out, okay, I have exactly enough space to get 10 yards if I run on the sideline at this exact moment. And then that decisiveness to go is, I think, a really sort of unique and special skill for him. I actually think I want to go back even further, Greg, to what was going on with him before the draft, because obviously he was taken before, or sorry, after Mitch Trubisky of the Chicago Bears and then Deshaun Watson, who was drafted by the Texans.

But this was a player who, it's not like the Payton Manning situation where, yes, Bill Walsh famously, you know, debated whether Ryan Leaf was better than Peyton Manning before the Colts took him with the first overall pick. But with Mahomes, when you read the stuff that was written about him at the time, this was not a guy who had a first-drawn grade in a lot of places. There were a lot of teams who, at least before the draft, were saying to people publicly, This is a day two pick. This is even a day three pick in some places.

There were not, there was not that sort of overwhelming, oh my God, this is a generational quarterback prospect. And I think that speaks to how talented he is, obviously landing in the right spot help with the Chiefs Playmakers and Andy Reid, but his ability to grow and evolve and adapt where even in that first year where he mostly signed on the bench before playing the final week of the year, he really evolved as a quarterback. and the guy who showed up that first season in 2018 where he really played from week one onward

looked different in a lot of ways from the guy who saw at Texas Tech. I'm glad you brought that up and that first start, I wrote an entire huge, like, off-season column about it because if listeners remember, Alex... The Broncos game. Yeah, it was against the Broncos. It was week 17.

And the chief started Alex Smith in the playoffs, but they wanted to give Mahomes one start. And they actually had their offensive quarter, and their play caller, start prepping for the playoffs while Andy Reed and the quarterback's coach at the time, Mike Kafka was going to be the quarterback's coach, prepped Mahomes for that season finale. We actually had him on the around the NFL podcast, Andy Reed,

just a few months later. And they played their starters now. Denver did. Yeah. They were starting defense. And I went into that game feeling like we could score any time. And once we got in there, I felt the same thing. He gave you that confidence. and he made some plays that you saw him do these no look throws that he doesn't practice

so we kind of go out it's practice he starts doing those in the game i'm going whoa okay that's something special so he he had a throw to demarcis robinson in that game that was just absolutely crazy his first completion as a pro was a 35 yard like frozen rope i think it was to the opposite hash and i love that quote from reed who just said we started feeling like we could we could score at any moment. And I think the confidence was there. And Alex Smith deserves a lot of credit because Mahomes and Reid have gone out of their way to just say over and over how much he helped Mahomes in that year. So he ends up coming in as a first time starter the next year. And that's the thing what is unique about Mahomes compared to Manning or Brady or really anyone. And it's why he's number

two. And we can go in the comparison between him and Manning because he obviously doesn't have the same amount of first team all pros or MVPs. But what he did, Bill, was be the best quarterback in the league from like the minute he actually started playing. His first three starts, he had 13 touchdowns, no interception, and was averaging like over 300 yards. Like that first playoff run, he has those crazy comebacks where they, you know, he had 24 points in the fourth quarter

against Bill Belichick's defense. And the only reason, you know, they didn't win a Super Bowl potentially that year, as they lost the coin toss there to Tom Brady. So he was epic even in that playoff run. And that's what's unique, I think, about him compared to a Peyton Manning who took till year six to win that playoff game, compared to Tom Brady, who took to about year, you know, five or six as a pro to really become like a plus plus starter, even though he was winning titles.

Mahomes came in and he was just like the man from minute one. Yes. I mean, it was fully formed really from that first start. I actually watched it against the Chargers before we hopped on and, you know, just seeing stuff that they were running. They run a bunch of RPO's, which you would expect. They ran the triple for a game with Mahomes, which, you know, Alex Smith is a underrated athlete, but I don't know that they were running the triple all that much with Alex Smith at quarterback there. He was improvising. He was making stuff happen.

And a lot of it was deeper stuff. And having watched Mahomes throughout his career now and paying such close attention, I think what's fascinating, to me is how he has evolved as a quarterback because I think, yes, Peyton Manning did evolve, you know, in some ways as he moved on, but he was really, I think, so good and so consistent in running the offense that was very consistent over the course of his time in Indianapolis. Tom Brady did evolve. We'll talk about that in a little bit.

But over the course of five or six years, really, Patrick Wilms has gone from being the guy who torments teams deep to having to be a guy who throws underneath the fast majority of the time. He's 35th in air yards per attempt over the last three years. only Daniel Jones that has fewer air yards per throw and he's thrived doing that because he's grown patient

he is the guy who yes he can still throw deep you can still make those throws he still has the arm strength to do it it's not he's not physically capable of doing that but whether it's losing Tyree Kill whether it's the defense is being absolutely terrified

if in burning them deep of not having maybe the best offensive line or the best tackles giving him the time to make those throws and spots incredibly consistent at picking up third downs at historical outlier rates over the last few years. And that's Mahomes. It's not, you know, Travis Kelsey plays a big role, but it's not Travis Kelsey. It's not the run game. It's Mahomes and his ability to create a structure, his ability to read defenses and his ability to take what they're giving him, which, you know,

even for someone like Josh Allen, who I think is a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback, he struggles with at times. Patrick Mahomes has been able to do that and do that so quickly early on in his career. And I think that's only going to, it only just proves again how fast of a developer he is and how quickly he grows as a player. Right. I think if there's an underrated part of his game, I don't know if anything's underrated at this point, but it has to be just his decision making. He's just become such an elite decision maker as a young player. I don't think that gets talked about first. Now, that said, we're taping this at a very unique time in his career. And it was why I struggled with him two or three. My initial instinct was two. And then you look at the

numbers and five MVP's for mannings and this this exercise bill was supposed to be about greatness who actually just think was the best player it wasn't about counting stats totally it wasn't about just racking up numbers it was the highest the high excellence and we're taping this after two years where he hasn't been at his best i think what's been unique about peyton manning and i mean patrick bohams and yes i know i'm saying that after like he wins a super bowl and and gets to another Super Bowl. So it's all relative. But I think what was unique about him was, I think after one year as a starter, he was the best

player I'd ever seen come into the league. After two years as a starter, three years, four years, five years, I was like, that's the best three years to start is great, best four years. Now, the last two, if for some reason he stayed at or around that level

statistically moving forward, it would be a very different career. I don't think he's played his very best over the 16 game regular season in the last two regular seasons. Now, the playoffs are a different story. Obviously, struggled in the Super Bowl last year, but unlike Manning and Brady and almost anyone else to play the game in history, like his numbers have gone up significantly in the playoffs. As good as they are in the regular season. Like, his rate stats are even crazier. And they're great in the regular

season too. We might as well go over him before I throw it back to you here. He is number one in passing yards per game in NFL history. He is number one in adjusted net yards per attempt in NFL history. And number two, in adjusted yards per attempt in NFL history. Number one in success rate. So he is number one in a million great categories. And he's got the two MVPs, got the three Super Bowl MVPs. He's got one second team MVP, All-Pro as well.

So it's not like the numbers aren't great, Bill. But it is weird because Manning and Brady, their best parts of their career actually started right about now for Mahomes. Like the best part of Manning's career really started around 27, 28. I would say the best part of Brady's career really started around like 30

and then really cranked up around 32, 33. So Mahomes hasn't even gotten there yet. And I, if we listen back to this in 10 years, I tend to think that this two-year like slight lull is only part of the bigger picture and he's going to have many more Manning, Brady,

Mahomes like the bonker seasons moving forward. Yeah, I mean, those guys didn't always have all pros and every position around them, but I just think in 23 when his receivers had the worst drop rate of the last decade and, you know, I think about the drop against the Lions that cost him in the game in week one with Darius Tony. And then last year, I mean, they had a turnstile left tackle all season,

something that I think the great teams have always had, you know, kind of a locked-in left tackle, a guy who they can trust pretty much every year they're successful. And the chiefs have kind of just cycled guys through and managed to win anyway, I wouldn't be shocked over the next five or 10 years, the next five years, when they have a settled left tackle situation, when they have maybe a better set of receivers. We see more of the Mahomes members we've seen in years past. I think, you know, we're also smarter. Like, we also have the ability now in 2025 to watch all 22. And we didn't have that

for really the vast majority of Peyton Manning and Tom Brady's career. The discourse is smarter. We have more access to data and information that we just didn't have early in those guys' career. And I think all of that really underlies and tells us how good and how consistent Patrick Mahomes is in ways that even the other great quarterbacks in this league are not right now. Yeah, that is totally fair. And I could see he's an interesting psychology case because, yes, Brady had all the team success quickly, but he really didn't become who he was. as an individual player, I would say, until at least 05, 06, and then whereas Manning,

I mean, Mahomes has experienced it all. He's done every, he's had a Hall of Fame career that, you know, in his first four or five years. So the motivation of how to keep getting better, and I think he's going to get want to get back to some of the fun Mahomes plays that we saw early.

Let's just watch one of them just for the hell of it. Fourth and nine. Chase it after him. Mahomes in trouble. flings it across his body. It's caught by way. Who is it? He came back for it

and he's out of bounds at the throw. An amazing play by the Chiefs all the way across the field while your body weight is backwards

falling out. That is just outrageous. That's a 2018 game against the Ravens. And that's not like the only time he's done that or made that sort of

throw, Greg. I think back to that Lions game, they actually lost week one of 23, where it ended in like a third and 22 and a fourth and 22 situation, and more than anybody else in football, more than Tom Brady, more than Peyton Manning, more than anybody else, if it's a fourth and 20 plus, the only person on the planet where I'm actually scared of them

hitting it is Patrick Wilhelms. And he got someone open. I think he got Cadarious Tony opening the ball went off his fingertips, or might have been Skymore. I get my 23 bad chiefs receivers confused in my head. But even the Bengals game last year where he had a third and forever and a fourth and forever. where they hit Kelsey for a touchdown and I got called back because is that the Cadarious Tony.

I don't listen to the Qadari's Tony. But you get the idea. Like in those third, fourth, and forever situation, it feels almost like a 50-50 shot. And that's not the case for anyone else in football. Yes. So I don't really think he's having Brady's career backwards.

I think he's going to have the individual success along with the team's success moving forward. But it is fun to have a guy. He's really the first guy that I've felt. J.J. Watt is, is probably the closest other one where, like, as it's happening, as it's starting, you're aware of just witnessing greatness. And, yeah, 17 and 4 in the postseason, we saw that clip against the Ravens.

He's personally, like, ruined a potential Bill's dynasty, beating them four times in the playoffs, which is just outrageous this decade. One great team alone, he's beaten four times. Everyone trying to get past Patrick Mahomes. Like a lot of teams in the AFC were trying to get past. our number one player. Let's just get to him. Number one, Tom Brady. Brady to the end zone.

And talkouts with a touchdown. Brady's back. That's your quarterback. Boy, when you thought you'd seen it all. My God. Fires it to the right, down the right side line, and caught at the 2015-10-5 touchdown. Patriots, Tom Brady to Randy Moss, and they each have set NFL records on the go-ahead touchdown for Tom Brady.

Touchdown pass number 50, an NFL record. You have to have a certain obsession about winning and understanding that there's no in-between is winning in the Super Bowl, and then there's failure. I haven't seen many do it the way Tom does. Got locked in now, laser focus. Sideline. What a throw, Amandola, on the reception. One of the best of the game for Tom Brady. Toss to White.

He's in. Patriots win the Super Bowl. The greatest comeback in Super Bowl history, led by the greatest quarterback. I apologize to our listeners, and especially Bill Barnwell, for having to watch all of that Bill, but you got to cackle while the Giants took, took Brady out a couple of times. Those obviously were the great moments of his career and didn't even include the Bucks spiking the football at the end of his career where he came in second in an MVP vote and won another Super Bowl. Ultimately, it just felt, and I did debate between these three. Was it Mahomes or Manning? And then I kind of, I thought about Mahomes or Brady because I know all the accomplishments, obviously,

go to Brady, but in terms of pure greatness, I thought hard about Mahomes and just what we've seen. But ultimately, if we're talking about the highs being just the absolute highest and then the longevity and accomplishments is sort of the tiebreaker, it's not like Tom Brady's highs weren't exceptionally high. And so in the end, he is my number one. Are you happy with my top three order? I think so. The thing about Brady and obviously, I mean, what's, you know, Tom Brady like I don't think you need me to tell you Tom Brady is good but what I would say really stent out to me is just how how ubiquitous Brady came in terms of what you saw off the field of what you saw on the field I know Patrick Mahomes or you know we were talking I think in the video

clip about some Jordan comparisons to me you know Brady's the pretty clear Jordan you know successor in terms of just the sheer volume of winning early in his career just the standard being set, the expectation that he was always going to pull things out, that he was never out of a game. The Falcons game didn't happen until much later in his career, but, you know, we saw comebacks, we saw great moments, we saw, you know, just poised that was preternatural early on in his career. And then I would say, even maybe more so, just the evolution of the on-field product of the National Football League. Yes, the Colts threw the ball a ton. Yes, the early Andy Reed Eagles through the ball a ton.

But really that 2007 Patriots team is what transformed the NFL. I mean, when you see the offenses, Brady was running early in his career, yes, it's technically still Earhart Perkins. It's still, you know, maybe some of the underlying concepts. But really moving to the spread,

incorporating some tempo stuff from the Chip Kelly College team before Chip got to the NFL, I think seeing an evolution of teams leaning into the past, leaning into spreading the ball around, leaning into, you know, that being a way to consistently win at the highest level as opposed to kind of being, you know, maybe more of a gimmick. We saw the Falcons were on the run and shoot earlier on in the 90s, and that didn't stick very long. We didn't see teams adopt that.

The Patriots were so good, and Tom Brady was so good running that offense that it became kind of a core concept of what teams do. You could not put it aside and ignore it. And now the modern version of the NFL, there's stuff that wasn't. in those offenses, but the modern NFL looks more like the 2007 Patriots when offenses are at their best in a lot of ways than I think anybody could have anticipated heading into that 2007 season. The hell like the 2010-2011 teams too with like the two tight ends and playing fast. And it's really interesting with Brady because, okay, his accomplishments, he's first

team all decade in the 2000s for the Hall of Fame and pro football reference. But he's also first team all decade. in the 2010s for the pro football fame, which is outrageous. And then, oh, by the way, in the 2020s, as I mentioned, he won the Super Bowl in his first year with the Bucks and then actually had a better year overall, his second year. Yeah. Almost won the MVP and had that big fourth quarter comeback

that the Rams stopped to help win their Super Bowl. So he's got all the numbers and stuff, even if he doesn't have the amount of seasons being an all-pro, only three only, along with his MVPs. and so that's less than Manning. But it's crazy to think, I think so many of his best seasons bill are actually when they didn't win.

I always thought that was weird as a Patriots fan. He was great in 2005. That was the first year, actually, I felt as a Patriots fan that not only is this guy great, but that, oh, he can and should be the best quarterback in the league. Even after three Super Bowls, you didn't quite feel like that.

He was coming on by the end of 2004, but he was awesome in 2005. And then I think the best Patriots offenses were 2010 and 2011. Their defense has just stunk. And him dragging some of the other teams, like the 2013, 2015 team, which also had their issues, whether it was running or defense to the doorstep. And he went that 10 long years between Super Bowls. And you think about like he was playing his very best then.

And yet, then he still tacks on the 2014 season, which I think is to me like the most complete. Patriots team that they ever had and then you have the comeback and then you have them kind of dotting the eye at the very end with the comeback against Mahomes. There's just so many different seasons like that 2022 and with the Bucks where it was like it wasn't all about team success. It was about him sort of setting the floor so freaking high that statistically you just were going to break through eventually. And that's why like they went 10 years without it, but eventually they were going to win some more of those close games because your boy, Eli

Manning, you know, wasn't going to get back. back to the playoffs. Yeah, the Brady stopper. Yeah, really early in Brady's career, someone who lived in Boston at the time, who was, you know, part of whatever the football internet was early on, early in those days.

We were thriving, Bill. We were thriving. We were thriving. We were there. Even the pre-midots, even the early odds, Greg. I feel like, you know, Brady was talked about maybe in the same way

Brock Paredes now. Like, it was okay, he's a game manager. He's going to be smart, but no, he's not just a, he's not a transunding quarterback in terms of his ability. No, he's not the guy who's going to terrify opposing defensive coordinators at night. And there was a throw. There was a touchdown pass in overtime against the dolphins where that was the moment.

I think it was like an 80 plus yard touchdown to, I want to say Troy Brown. Yes. That it was like, oh, he can do that. He has that in his locker. And you saw that over and over again. Brady going from being a guy who was just, oh, he's going to just, you know, come up with a late driver to to, oh, no, he's going to dominate you for four quarters, to, oh, he's going to rack up crazy numbers, to, oh, he's the focal point of this offense, and everything is built through

him and around him. That wasn't the case early on. And that really, you know, again, showed his growth, his development, his ability to go from being a guy who didn't have elite arm strength, to be a guy who could make literally any throw and terrify opposing teams on the process. And I bring up Troy Brown, and Troy Brown was a good football player. But Greg, you know, he had a couple. of truly transited players.

He had Rob Garnkowski, who was maybe one of the best times in NFL history when he was on the field. He had Randy Moss that year, but just the sheer volume of guys who were not exactly superstars elsewhere. I mean, West Welker was not even a regular starter

for one of the worst teams in NFL history, that Dolphins team where he got traded to the Patriots and that turned things around. Guys like Chris Hogan, Josh Gordon, Brandon Lafell, those guys all have more than 1,000 receiving yards on throws from Tom Brady. And, you know, Bill Belichick would have his misses at wide receiver throughout time.

They signed some free agents who didn't work out. They had some draft picks who didn't work out. But Brady really more than Manning, because Manning just had so many talented players. And even Mahomes just had Kelsey for his entire career. I mean, Brady made different versions of that offense work. Like you mentioned, the 12 personnel grouping with Broncan Aaron Hernandez that transformed the offense. they made the spread work. He made it work with David Givens

and Troy Brown early in his career when he was hitting Jermaine Wiggins for plays in the Super Bowl. You know, it really was such a really fascinating offense and changed so many ways. And the guy who ended up being most closely associated with him down the run

was Julian Edelman, who was a seventh round pick. I mean, he made so many guys' careers by being such a incredibly accurate and incredibly anticipatory passer. Yeah. the 2006 AFC Championship, which was ultimately the best moment, I think, of Peyton Manning's career

because he led that comeback was so close to being Brady's best job, I would say, dragging a team that shouldn't be there further because his top two receivers that year were Rishay Caldwell and Doug Gabriel, I think, who

was hurt by the time they got to the championship game, so it was Jabbar Gaffney. It was really becoming a remember some guys yes. I love it. I absolutely do. I think what made him great, though, more than anything, ultimately was his pocket movement. And I think that's just growing up a Patriots fan ultimately and watching Brady is why I lean towards that being like the number one trait that if you have it, if you can naturally buy a little extra time with small movement inside the pocket while keeping your eyes downfield and like going

through your reads. Like that is, I believe, the number one trait like a quarterback can have that inaccuracy. And to me, he was, that is the number one thing he was the best at of all time. Like, I sort of started to take it for granted of just watching him versus other quarterbacks. They're just like, what a crazy feel he just sort of naturally had of where the pass rushers were to buy himself that extra half a second. I think, I think he had that in a way that even Manning and Rogers and Mahomes didn't. I really think that was the thing that kind of made him Brady more than anything else? I think it's defense rating and it's

kind of crazy that you could have multiple things that Tom Brady might be the best at all time at different elements of being a quarterback his ability to kind of re-leverages of defensive players and take advantage of them and again I think with the Holmes we talked about in taking the easy stuff like Tom Brady

was the best quarterback in NFL history at taking what defenses gave you and you know being able to get the ball into the places where there were big spots in defenses making that decision quickly knowing what that was going to be based on the pre-snap leverage and pre-snap movement

and being able to manipulate that at the line of scrimmage, I think, was really hard. And that Patriots' offense was not easy. Especially as time we're on and they added more and more to it. And you're going to take stuff out, but usually you're going to keep more in than you take out as you're expanding

an offensive scheme and an offensive playbook over so many years with so many of the same people. And, you know, there's a lot of option routes in there. There's a lot of stuff that, you know, made receivers line. Hives hell. I think we saw it. Kimbril Tompkins clip, I want to say. Yeah, that was his game winner against the Saints. I thought that that was like just one of the best passes of his career.

That was a fun game winner. Yeah, Chad Ocho Siko could never pick it up. I'll always blame the 2011 championship on the Patriots not changing their strategy of just leaving Ocho Sinko on an island, one side of the field getting totally locked up, not like thinking that he was going to win. But it was partly because, yeah, some guys couldn't pick it up. and he had such a high, high bar of what you needed to. Speaking of which, you mentioned Edelman as the best wide receiver with Brady,

and I wouldn't disagree. But he did have one other guy who followed him to Tampa. Brady, play action. Look at third option. Endsone. Klowski again with the touchdown. Yeah, that run with Tampa ultimately, we'll end with this. it just sort of spiked the football

on all these conversations. It almost made it less fun because I think it's easier to forget now, like how freaking old he was when he got to Tampa. He also ruined the Belichick Brady debate really. Not that it was a debate. I always thought that was stupid. Like football is about

it's a team sport and it's the common... It's the combination of them that made them great. But even me as a Belichickian like I always thought it was closer to 50-50. than I should have in terms of how important Belichick was. And then you just go back to the reality

of I think any sport. Of course it's more about the player. And you say about how the offense had transformed all over the years, it's like, yeah, that's Tom Brady ultimately being by far the most important part of it. And for him to go at age 43 and put up those

three seasons in a row as Buck's quarterback at like an extremely high level. Like I said, a second in MVP, the second season after winning the Super Bowl the first. It's just like it kind of ended all the arguments and it was just like it was just the ultimate Tom Brady

seasons. I actually think kind of were in Tampa. Yeah, I mean, that sort of warped our brains as well. Like I talked about the on-field thing about you know, offense is looking more like 2007 Patriots as time more on than they had beforehand.

Our brains for what's normal for quarterbacks are broken by Tom Brady, right? Like Mahomes has been evaluated and compared every second of his career as a former first-round pick and then as a successful quarterback to Tom Brady. Like, that is the bar now in a way that it was not before Tom Brady.

Even, you know, the fact that you have a guy playing into his 40s with the Aaron Rogers stuff in New York. Like, there was an expectation that, oh, Aaron Rogers wasn't great as finally on the Earth of Packers, but sure, Tom Brady can play into his 40s and basketball, so why can't Aaron Rogers do it? because that's not normal because he's the only

identical history who's come close to doing that realistically. That is the, I think there's this sort of expectation now that not only are you going to win very often in your pride,

but you're going to keep winning later into your career until your late 30s and even like you said into your 40s because Tom Brady did it with a second team. Like that's warped our brains

because that's not normal. That's not resented and it's not frankly realistic for anybody else. Tom Brady did that because he's the only player like Tom Brady in the history of the National Football League. Yeah, and it's funny how like the first part of his career was sort of defined and broken up by that ACL tear. And yet I sort of had forgotten until then. That was like basically the only injury he ever had in his career that kept him out of games.

The only other thing was was SpyGate, which I mean, deflategate, which he came back and got second in MVP that year, despite having missed four games. And yeah, so it does break my brain a little bit to think that he was 39 when they made that comeback 28 to 3 against the Falcon. So we used to say it on around the NFL. You could divide his career into three parts and all three would make the Hall of Fame. If you divide it into two, it is a neat trick

that it's almost exactly Joe Montana's stats. I forget what year it is that you pick where it's like Joe Montana twice or three times if you want to have like a Kurt Warner type career. We've talked enough about Tom Brady on this podcast. Bill, I really appreciate you. And I appreciate you finishing out this series with me. We've been covering the league together this whole time.

So you were to me a perfect person to reflect on these guys. And I'm glad you agree with my top three. Thanks, buddy. Sounds like you're just saying I'm old, but I'll say, I appreciate it. No. I'm also playing at an unprecedented. level in my early 40s and hope to continue that for years to come. I'm not

going to say you were the youngest of our guest hosts, but there are certainly veterans who have been in the game longer than you have that contribute. And I wanted to thank them, because this is our last episode. So forgive me, Bill. But I did want to thank Brian Baldinger. I mean, he was on Fox

back in the 90s. Kevin... Hello, Massapequin. Yeah, and Kevin Harlan makes, you know, Baldi look like a newcomer. So Kevin Harlan and wanted to really thank him. Steve Weiss was covering the game before Bill Barnwell, too. And then your great friend, Mina Kimes, joined us. And of course, our friend Nate Tice,

who was the ball boy back for the Vikings back in the day. I also wanted to thank him, because this has been a really fun series to do, and it was a lot of work, and it took more cooperation than usual, and we're taping these shows along with our regular shows. So NFL research really helped us out with this. media services, our graphics and our creative team, booking, our social integration team. We don't get a chance to thank these teams often. Our TOC and Ingest, and so everyone did a little extra work than we would normally have to do. We had Westwood One and the local radio call,

so thank you to them for the rights to having to do that. And then more than anyone, our guys, Gavin in the back, Chris Bobona, our producer really took charge of this project and did it up right. And so thank you, Chris, all under the stewardship of our main guy, Eric Roberts. So thank you very much. NFL Daily is part of the NFL Podcast Network. It is the home for all the official NFL media podcast produced in partnership with IHeart Media. And yes, this has been NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. I'm Greg Rosenthal. And a little later this week. Yes, football will be back with some regular programming. See you then. rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find

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