NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - 25 Players in 25 Years: Mina Kimes on Nos. 25-21

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by ESPN's Mina Kimes to reveal numbers 25 through 21 of NFL Daily's Top 25 Players of the Last 25 Years. Gregg and Mina start the list with Kansas City Chiefs TE Travis Kelce (02:59), followed by Pro Football Hall-of-Famer Terrell Owens at number 24 (13:20), Pittsburgh Steelers OLB T.J. Watt at number 23 (22:59), Pro Football Hall-of-Famer Walter Jones at number 22 (32:05), and Baltimore Ravens QB Lamar Jackson at number 21 (41:05). Note: time codes approximate.  Don't miss any of NFL Daily's Top 25 Players of the Last 25 Years where Gregg is joined by ESPN's Mina Kimes and Bill Barnwell, Yahoo! Sports' Nate Tice, NFL Network's Steve Wyche and Brian Baldinger and broadcasting legend Kevin Harlan to break down the best NFL players since the turn of the century.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to NFL Daily's top 25 players of the last 25 years. Yes, this is the first episode. It's going to be a six-part. series that I'm really excited about and there is no one I would rather start the series with than my friend, Mina Kimes of ESPN. This is a big responsibility, Mina, taking the first

episode. Hello, I'm excited to do this. The players that are in this bunch are great. This is a great group. I mean, they're all great. That's the general premise of this entire thing. But they're really fun players to talk about. So I'm particularly excited to be 25 through 21. Yeah, a couple things I noticed putting the list together. It's backloaded, like the current players are more towards the back. Don't blame Mina or any of the future guests that are coming on the show. It is my list, but they're coming on to give their impressions.

And we have a lot of great guests. Kevin Harlan is going to be on the show coming up. Your buddy, Nate Tice, Brian Baldinger, Steve Weish. It's going to be really great. Just a couple little ground rules, though, for the listeners out there if they're curious. It was more about sustained greatness over like a three- to five-year period was like where I started. Like, you're not going to be on this list if you only had one or two great years.

That's almost a prerequisite. But it wasn't about longevity to me. It was like, who was the very best? And maybe longevity is a little bit of a tiebreaker. Do you think that's like a fair way to do it? Yeah, I do. I mean, we're talking about, especially when you're talking about top 25. It's tough, man.

Yeah, you're going to have to make some really difficult cuts. and you're going to have to set guidelines, I think, around, like, it's kind of like when we do general debates over, like, who's the greatest of all time? You have to take longevity into account. You can't just be like a guy at his peak. I actually think the player you're starting with is a great... He really is.

He really is perfect fodder for this exact question and this exact debate because there's another player who he's constantly compared to, who I think is probably also on your list. And you're... By starting with this player, you're making, you're drawing a line in the sand, really, and you're kind of, it's a take, honestly. It absolutely is, which means we should just get to it.

But yes, he's on one side of the equation. You're absolutely right. You're going to find out in a second. On the other side, for instance, is maybe a guy like Namdi Asimawa or something. And not that he was close to making this list at all, but for a three to four year period, he was one of the coldest cornerbacks of the last 25 years.

Like, obviously he's not going to make it because that's too short of an absolute peak. but this list is full of guys who had crazy high peaks. Larry Fitzgerald is not on this list, for instance. I don't want to spoil too much, but he's a guy when you look at it, not that he was a compiler, but a one first-time all-pro or first-team all-pro, like two second teams. His highs weren't quite as high.

Let's just get the little list. Let's go to number 25. Number 25, Travis Kelsey. Mahomes gets the shotgun snap. Pumps, throws for the end zone to Kelsey. Adjusting makes the catch touchdown. Travis Kelsey with a touchdown in the back right corner of the end zone.

Kansas City wins it, 42, 36 in overtime. Patrick Mahomes back. Gonna throw middle. Travis Kelsey. This dude's taken over and been dominant in the playoffs. When Mahomes throws them, they have a 140 quarterback rating. I mean, this is Montana Rice territory.

I don't care what people call us. I know I'm back to back and I want in three in whatever years. Y'all can call us a dynasty, you can call us, whatever you guys want. I know what we got is something more special than really what you've seen in the NFL is because the guys in this locker room and the head coach. It has been a wild journey. We have been on with Travis Kelsey.

I remember when he slips in the draft because of tests and stuff and underrated and comes out. He was older when he came out, 24 years old. He didn't have his first thousand. yard season until he was 27 years old, and yet he is one of the most famous, certainly, and one of the defining players. I mean, you started this whole thing already saying I'm making a take. What do you think that take is putting him at 25? Well, I guess that take depends. I'm making an assumption, which is that Rob Grunkowski comes later in this list. Okay, so that's the take,

right? Because this is the debate, and it's a debate, the debate between Grunkowski and Kelsey, and I think is a really good debate, and I think it's not one that's like, there's an obviously glaring the right answer. I think you can argue either side. It's about longevity. It's about dominance. It's about peaks. It's about postseason accomplishments.

It's also about the nature of this particular position. I think that's the most important thing is when you're talking about who's who is, who is better, who is greater, who is more dominant. You're also talking about, well, what are we expecting out of the tight end position? Absolutely. And yeah, his blocking obviously is not nearly what Rob Gronkowski's is. But I don't want to be comparing those two the whole time because at first he wasn't even on my list. And then I started thinking about it. Kelsey.

Yeah, he was. Well, because I'm thinking about absolute dominance, who are the best, but it's crazy, the Hall of Famers that are not making this list. I mean, there are a lot of them. This is a, it's a tough list. But for first team all pros, three seconds. He's on the all 2010 team for the Hall of Fame that they put out. He has the numbers like most yards, most playoff touchdowns now,

like third in receiving yards among tight ends. So the numbers are all there in terms of counting stats. And I just think his peak wasn't like as high as some of the guys higher on this list, but it is ridiculous. I mean, how many defining moments he's had. And it's because he's been in the playoffs so long, but it's because he finished those games. That catch you heard to start it was the divisional round,

maybe the best game of this decade that he finishes in the overtime against Buffalo. He's had like so many walkoffs, including against the Chargers. We might hear that one a little later. Like him beating Kyle Hamilton in the AFC championship. just a couple of years ago. The walk, like, he's had so many absolute big moments, and he's just been incredibly consistent,

and he had to make this list. I talked to our friend Nick Wright, and because I was thinking about Tony Gonzalez because his all pros and his numbers are just outrageous. But I think at his peak, Kelsey was ultimately better, and obviously he deserves to be here. Yeah, a lot of thoughts on Travis Kelsey. First of all, I think because of the comparison to Gronk

and because of who he is at this point in career, his career. We forget he was an okay blocker. He wasn't like he was never as dominant as gronk and that is a huge part of the argument for gronk if one wants to make that argument. But he wasn't bad. I just, I want to throw that out there. He still isn't actually that bad. He just gets used differently. And a lot of the way he gets used has to do with the fact that he has not been surrounded by world beaters outside of Tyree Kill. I think that also bears mentioning. This offense has been run through, has run through Travis Kelsey at so many points in so many big games. And certainly since Tyree Kill left since then.

And that's not something you see very often. A lot of his usage is because of that. It's born out of necessity. I would also argue, and this is something I would say is a little bit, is if you weren't to make a case for him over, Gronk. he to me, Greg, is the single best zone coverage beater maybe of our lifetime. Maybe that's a little bit too rich

if you think about some of the receivers, but certainly amongst tight ends. No question among tight ends. And you're right, I would have to think about that list. And that's why he was a tough one for me of where to put him. Like, is he high enough? He's one of only two tight ends on this list.

I don't mind spoiling that. Like, that is his trademark. And you saying how his, usage went up. Like, his best season was 2020, that cursed season with no crowds or anything, that he was just going crazy. He actually got a few offensive player of the year votes. That was one metric.

Like, was he ever at the super top where he's winning those sorts of awards? Not so much, but that year, you know, 1,400 yards, like over 100 catches and just totally dominant. And to me, he's had a better career than Antonio Gates. He's the key player other than Patrick Mahomes in. you know, the best dynasty that we've seen other than the Patriots dynasty, not just the last 25 years, but one of them in the history of the NFL. And the thing that's crazy that you pointed out, Mina, is he's actually gotten better as he's

lost juice. One of the fun things I've gotten to do with this exercise, I just go back, watch some old tape or watch some old highlights. And, you know, he's ripping off 80-yard screen passes in 2017, 2018. And you're like, oh, yeah, Travis Kelsey used to have so much juice. And yet, because he has a ridiculous mind meld, maybe the best since money, Montana to Jerry Rice is Mahomes to Kelsey. He's actually gotten better as he's gotten older. I do like that, like, you can't really punish either of them for the quarterback because they both played with like the two greatest quarterbacks.

Right. So, yeah, it's not like, well, Travis Kelsey got to play with Patrick Mahomes. I swear to God, I'm not going to only talk about Travis Kelsey to the lens of Robert Gruncowski, but Grunk got to play with. But I think right now he is in that phase, the one last job phase of his career, where all they need is for him to be big and huge moments in certain games the same way that Rock was in the infamous Ram Super Bowl victory on that one last drive. Yeah, I think with Kelsey, like I absolutely think he belongs on this list.

Yes, he does. I'll start there because it's just like the kindly, he really marries all of it, longevity, peaks, playoff accomplishments, big games. Random reality shows. That's the other thing is like watching those clips, like, because he's played for so. long at this point and has his persona has evolved so much it's kind of like his girlfriend's eras like we do

have Travis Kelsey's eras that's that by the way is all I know about Taylor's I've reached the limits of the Taylor's the jokes that I can make but like there have been points in his career where he's been used in different plays where he's played different roles in that offense where he has sounded different

when he talks and it's like he to me like you really can't tell the story of the NFL over the last 10 years without him. Yeah, I just, spectacular football player. That it was part of my reasoning,

not only that he was on, but a lot of these guys were going to be on it. Who were the most painful to leave off? When I had him off first, I was like, oh, that's too painful. And Chiefs fans are going to want to hear this, but there were a lot of like chiefs that were right. I thought about Chris Jones.

I thought about Tony Gonzalez. They were among the first people to be left off. I was like, it would be too painful to leave Kelsey, who, yes, not only entertain millions, including the namesake of this studio, Chris Wesseling and Lakeisha Wessling, were hardcore fans of Catching Kelsey at the time. The only two people I know that were watching every single episode. But yes, like authored so many moments that I can remember. Let's actually look back because one thing I found looking through like his greatest plays

and his greatest games, so many of them came against the Chargers. It's just outrageous that I just want to play one of them. Hill number three in the all-time Chiefs' touchdown catch list with one tonight. Now, just one catch shy of Otis Taylor. Here is Kelsey. Still going. Still going. Kelsey, good night.

Touchdown. Chiefs win it. The thing I remembered more, not that I should have, but he has so many good after the catch plays where he just puts that foot in the dirt and gets everyone to go one way. And you don't think of them like that. and half of them were against the Chargers. I mean, he has two game-winning touchdowns against the Chargers. He has 190-yard game against the Chargers.

I believe that was part of that. Like, so many of them was just, like, breaking the rest of the AFC's hearts, especially the Chargers. It's funny because I feel like Derwin James on the Chargers has been thought of as one of the dudes you can count on to try to handle Travis Kelsey. I think that's the other thing that's so unique about him. Whenever we've talked about the Chiefs over the last few years, certainly during the Tyree Kill era, it was a lot about how you handle that

level of speed and it was game tilting. But I know as an analyst, every time I've talked about this team and playing them and the defenses, it always starts with, okay, who's on Kelsey? What is your game plan? What is your approach to him? Are you comfortable playing zone coverage? It's a question you ask always about the chiefs, right? Like, do you have the capability to man up this team? And if you do, who's on Kelsey? Like, I just, I think that's a, when I think about great players and whether or not they qualify for a list like this from my not to be solipsistic perspective, I think through, okay, when I'm thinking about this team and their games, is this the first person I think of? How do we stop them? And he could make that same argument for

Chris Jones, by the way, who I do think was probably a tough cut. He was an extremely tough cut. And like I said, there's a lot of Hall of Famers not on this list. So it's tough to make those cuts. But I'm glad Kelsey is on. I'm also glad I have our next guy. Terrell Owens. Terrell Owens, down the sideline, getting the first down and continuing, makes a move back inside. Owens with a big run all the way into the end zone for the 49er touchdown. Another 75-yard play. This time, Terrell Owens, doing it after the catch.

Third and goal, Garcia, off the playfin, rolling right, has the touchdown. Terrell Owens. Where's it going? Right to the center of the stadium. Right to the Dallas Cowboys low going. Garcia to Owens' touchdown. Owens again heading for midfield. There he goes.

There's going to be a penalty on George Teague because he's going to clock him. So Owens is going to show him up again. And Teague just said the heck with it. This game's over anyway. I'm just going to take a cheap shot at him. We are wrapping, yeah, that little celebration of Terrell Owens with him sleeping on the football.

could make this list just off the celebrations. You kind of forget how many of them were so iconic. You got the popcorn, eating the popcorn. You have the Sharpie signing the ball. You have the Seahawks. You have the pom-poms grabbing and doing the pom-pom dance. You have him, of course, doing the holding his arms up to the sky at the old Texas Stadium. It's just amazing. And five first-team all-pros, kind of what you imagine, Mina, when you think of, at least back in the day, there's not as many of these guys of like, what would you want your number one receiver to look like?

6.3, 225 pounds and just fast as hell. I went down a rabbit hole of watching T.O. highlights when I saw he was on your list. And one of the highlights was just every catch he made against the Chicago Bears in the record-breaking game. I think was Brandon Marshall broke that, if I remember quickly. Yeah, 20 catches, yeah.

And it's a great mix of just, you know, slants and hitches, but then also some, a couple deep balls as well. And you really get a full sense of like his unbelievable skill set, which really was, I mean, he was good a lot of things, but at that size, the speed, the breakaway speed, first of all, he was really physical, really strong, good contested catch guy. Some of his most famous catches are like that. But then like the breakaway speed and movement abilities he had at his size were so rare. It's like you put it. I mean, there's another, I'm sure Calvin Johnson's going to come later, but it does feel like he was like built in a lab to be a true X.

Yeah, a little different, like better after the catch even than Calvin Johnson, but still had like the mobility. And I know he had some drops certainly along the way and wasn't like as great a separator, say as Antonio Brown, who was a tough cut from this list ultimately because I just just on the field watching him. He was a among the very best I ever saw. But he's a guy who, till the end of his career, was just a big play machine. He averaged 14.8 yards per catch for his whole career.

That, like, never fell off. He's third all-time in receiving yards. He was on the all-decade team. He was timed very well for this list. His breakout season, and that was part of it. I did not consider any 1990s seasons. So even if you started in the 90s, like a Randy Moss, for instance, that wasn't part of the equation.

And his breakout season, Tio, was 2,000 and five first team, all pros. And, man, he didn't have like a ton of playoff moments. He had the catch two, certainly, with the 49ers when he was young in his career. But you remember that performance he had against the Eagles, where Belichick has said many times how he assumed Tio is not going to be in that game or not going to look like Tio because he's coming off of a broken leg. and he goes nine for 122 and almost kind of carries them to

a Super Bowl win all by himself while he was a member of the Eagles. Was the finger game before? That was after that, right? When he had the plate in his finger and he came back and played. That's the other thing we got to talk about with him. Yeah, this is the unbelievable toughness,

which, and that's the other thing about him, like, just like the perfect, I talk about him being like the perfect wide receiver, lab belt, right receiver. The personality is, like, when people think about wide receivers, better or worse, And I say better for better or worse because, you know, was he always the best teammate?

No. Did he rub you the wrong way? Sure. But holy smokes, this dude was tough and was a competitor. I mean, like some of like the injuries that he overcame to play, I feel like maybe more so than he has some of the most iconic coming off of an injury games of any player in NFL history. And it is funny to me that like he contained multitudes in that way, right? Like we think of this like diva personality, but then he was tough as nails. I don't know.

He was just kind of an interesting mix of contradictions. Yes. Let's listen just to a little cut up we have of some T.O. Trasstock. I know you don't want me to sign, but I'm a sign in the way because I love me. He's a lot of hate me, bro. They all hate me. They hate to love me. They can hate me all y'all want to, but you can't stop.

He's an all-time NFL film sound effects guy, like an all-time. all-time NFL-miked-up guy. There's a clip on YouTube from NFL films, which is 13 minutes of him on mic'd-up, and it's so good. And one thing you do get from it is you're reminded, like he was a team captain more than a few times in his career. He was known as, like, one of the,

if not the hardest workers on his team. He learned literally from Jerry Rice, and he talks about that, not only about how to work, but how to look good on the field. He talks about that a lot. And you just kind of think about him running over all these guys and running past him. And it's just like, that's what you want on your team.

And yes, it ended up sour at the end in a few places, you know, in Dallas and San Francisco. Like when it went bad, it went bad. But the vast majority of those years, especially the first couple years in each spot, even into Cincinnati at the end of his career when he's with Ocho Cinco, he's still putting up a thousand yards. Like, he gave you everything he had. And so that was why I didn't want to knock him too. too badly for all that.

Well, speaking of, I mean, I have to bet we're on an NFL podcast, but I can bring this up. He's not in the NFL 100. Did you know that? I did not know that. He was not. So the NFL did the 100 greatest players of all time. I think they did it a few years ago, five years ago. And let's see.

Wait, let me find the headline. He called it despicable that he was left off. And like, I'm on his side. I mean, come on. dude, he's third all time in receiving yards, touchdown catches, top 10. And it's not just a long, he's not just a, you know, a compiler, dominant seasons, 100 yard games. It's insane that he wasn't on that list. I'm just going to say it.

It's crazy. Receiver is the toughest position. So I think making this list, okay, when you're just thinking about the last 25 years in no particular order, Julio Jones like his peak was just absolutely outrageous Antonio Brown I used to get into an argument that at his very peak I don't know if anyone was any better these are guys that are not on the list Larry Fitzgerald

like I mentioned who's just stacked up numbers like not on the list it was very hard to separate wide receivers but ultimately yeah the combination for me of just he was a little bit uncoverable because even though he had those drops at times, he was such a good contested catch guy that, like, even if you could cover him, Revis had some good battles with him later in his career. Even if you could cover him, like, it didn't really matter if he was playing his best.

The catch too being the perfect example of that. I remember growing up when I first got access to, like, YouTube, just watching that over and over and trying to like understand it how it happened, right? Because it just doesn't, like, how is it just like, how is this getting through and how is he winning for it and yeah it was just um yeah remarkable uh i was asked i'll just one quick aside i was while i was watching highlights i was texting a little bit with you mentioned nate tice and danny about who is the closest to him in this current generation and the consensus was a j brown is the player who's most similar to t o which i think is accurate i think that's right especially this version of a j brown like where are you

is right now where we just did a receiver's episode and we had him third overall because I think he's such a complete receiver. I think Tio also like warmed up to that spot too. As you mentioned, like the catch two that was his big breakout in San Francisco. Like it's funny hearing them talk about him early in his career. Like he didn't speak. He was very like afraid to talk to the media. It was like this shy guy until he wasn't. But yeah, Marvin Harrison was another guy. Tyree Kill was another guy that got cut off this list. It, Marvin Harrison somewhat got cut off from the, the 92,000 thing, but it's crazy how hard it was to make it. So it just shows you what kind of career T.O. had. Let's take a quick break and we will be back with the next guy on the list.

Hey, this is Matt Jones. I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL. perspective a little bit different? Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get.

Listen NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. more. What's up everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow.

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If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL fantasy football podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season?

Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily, best 25 players of the last 25 years. And yeah, as we go through some of these players,

I will be mentioning who didn't get off the list. I almost feel bad not saying it. It's like Justin Jefferson and Jemar Chase, they are building up that resume, but they're getting cut off basically because they haven't been in the NFL long enough, unlike our next guy. Number 23, T.J. Watt.

60 yards of offense for the falcons since halftime, and Cousins is sacked. Guess who? T.J. Watt put in an exclamation on this one. Big rush. He's hit. T.J. Watt has a sack. Unbelievable. T.J. Watt comes around and makes a sack. Favorite pass for us for to watch. I mean, I had to say T. what shoe string sack from the master himself t j wott continues to run rough shot newton gets hit ball is out watson in trouble there he is t j wott he is now the Steelers franchise all-time leader

in that category. The single most surprising player to make this list for me in terms of I did not expect to be putting him on when I started the list. He was not even that close until I really started thinking about the resume. Defensive player of the year

top four in the voting. Four straight years, the last four years for all pros. The most sacks since he's entered the league, the most force fumbles by far since he's entered the league, the most tackles for loss since he's entered the league, the sacks in his first eight seasons other than Reggie White and DeMarcus Ware, single season

sack record, led the league in sacks three times. And I just thought about like, what are we talking about here? I'm talking about players at the very top of their game, even though I feel a little lower than consensus on T.J. Watt, in general, I realize, like, not only is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, but he deserves to make this list. What do you think? Yeah, it kind of sneaks up on you how dominant the numbers are. And we know, whenever we do, like, we're the best three pass rushers in the NFL. It's always T.J. Watt, Miles, Garrett, and Blank, Michael Parsons right now, right? But

I think you don't think of him as like historically dominant until you look at what you just described. The idea of that he has led the NFL three times in sacks, twice and forced fumbles, that he's reached such insane sack totals. It's kind of one of those things where you really have to take a step back and realize

how incredibly dominant he's been, which is, I think, I'll throw something out. Do you feel like maybe not that he's overlooked, but it seems so unbelievable that J.J. Watt could have a brother. I just, right, like that J.J. Watt, who his peaks were so high, that his brother came in and you were like, oh, you know, it's J.J. Watt's brother.

That he became what he came seems so unlikely, Greg. maybe that plays into it a little bit? I think so. I mean, you know who agrees with you? The entire NFL? How did this guy go 30th in the draft? Because for so many years, all anyone said about J.J. Watt was like, how did he fall so far in the draft?

I know he was like, he's a walk-on and he had a different sort of career. He was like a late bloomer at Wisconsin, but it's like he's $2.95 and the biggest freakyest athlete with like the best voter you've ever seen and then had, you know, first ballot Hall of Fame season. and obviously he is going to be on this list coming up. And then the exact same thing happened, Mina, with TJ Watts. Just knowing, like, what happened with JJ

and somehow that it's, like, in them, we use the phrase, like, they're built different. Like, the Watts apparently really are built different. How did T.J. Watt get to 30th and then be this big of a steal for the Steelers of all teams? Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, genetics and also just work ethic and technique. I mean, that's the thing about T.J. Watt, similar to JJ, but to focus on T.J. for a second, just such a complete player. I think that's, if, you know, if I had to summarize him in one word, it would be complete. He's so good at everything. He's so good. Obviously, he is very technically refined and fun to watch pass rusher. And that is something kind of has only gotten better at over time. As he's, you know, added more to his repertoire. He wins with speech.

He wins with power. He wins with speed to power. He's got great inside moves. Like he's just really, really, really smart. He's seen it all. And then he finishes, which is how you get the high sack totals. But he's also a fantastic run defender.

That matters if we're talking about who are the greatest of their generation. He's good in coverage. He's had good moments in coverage. He's read the quarterback. And he's just really, really complete, Greg. And I think if you were able to hit that level, Some of it is nurture, not to say that JJ Watt and T.J. Watt's mom is run over this, but clearly these guys love ball and love studying ball, and that has factored into the brain.

They've got that dog at him. And you're always looking for intangibles. And it's tough to really evaluate that. But I really do think, like, the fact that he was JJ Watt's brother should have gotten drafted higher because there is clearly something about how you can improve at the NFL level that they have helped to master. And yeah, it is the big plays. It is the knack over and over and over to have game-winning plays.

Like, once it happens, like a few times, you're almost like, is this a little fluky that he's getting all these force fumbles? Like I said, he leads the NFL in force fumbles since he entered the league. Is it a little fluky that, like, his best plays keep coming at the end of these games? And it's like, at a certain point, you have to just accept, like, no, that is not fluky. Just, you know, thinking a few. He had a game against the Ravens where he called game on Lamar Jackson on a fourth down sack. He had the game last year against the Falcons where he essentially called game against then.

Big one, right? Yeah, he essentially called game on our boy, Gino Smith, in that Sunday night football. I remember that one well, yeah. He has like a four sack game. You know, he's just had like when he goes big, he goes so big. and at the biggest moments. And I do think that's how you get to find as like one of the greatest of the greats.

Yeah, I feel like anyone on this list has to have taken over a game. Or taking a game, games, right? Both, you know, both, all of the guys we've talked about thus far you would put in that category. And with a pass pressure, that's like a really high bar because it doesn't happen that often. And there's probably like three or four guys in the league right now

where you can say I can point to a few times where that's happened. and yeah, certainly it's been DJWod. There's something cool, too, about that he is like the edge rusher of the Pittsburgh Steelers that he's continuing that tradition for that team, but he's the next and the greatest. And the reason why he wasn't high on my list at first is I think I was a little biased towards the players that are in the middle of their prime. I mentioned before that, like Justin Jefferson and Chase just felt like just short.

If they had one or two more years, like they really might make it. But seeing, you know, Watts been in the league by now eight years. And this is why I started comparing him. And you compare his resume. And here's some other guys. I'm just curious your thoughts. Like a Callais Campbell, for instance,

who was all-proof football reference all 2010's team, who had a second place in a defensive player of the year. Jared Allen, who's in the Hall of Fame. Jason Taylor, who, you know, was a second team all 2000s, is in the Hall of Fame. But I don't think, actually, when I looked at it, that his highest of highs were as high as T.J. Watt. Dwight Freeney was probably my toughest omission, where his peak maybe wasn't quite as long,

but he was such a good player. But those guys, like none of them had a defensive player of the year, like top four type of run that T.J. Watt had. Yeah, I think you can probably, I mean, T.J. Watt's been like top one to three for four years. yeah at least and some other years as well where he wasn't that far off

yeah I none of the guys you mentioned I would put over him so I think that's fair I am curious now to see how hi that other guy who I talked to well yeah I don't want to I don't want you to spoil

it's okay it's good it's a good tease for the rest of the list speaking of let's talk about a player that I know you will enjoy discussing number 22 Walter Jones Let's run this thing all the way here.

With me, I want you to come in, you know, and try to attack me. It's an honor to join Steve Larger and Cortez Kennedy. I've been here to rush up and feel a lot. Tell me what Walter's doing. Go on, Walt. Mr. Jones? Get it crud, Watt. At the third player to represent the Seahawks franchise.

He's still the best. Walter's still the best. And the 12th man. What a great push by that left side of the Seahawks offensive line. Oh, Walter Jones, big Walt. He could be even higher on the list, Mina, but I wanted to hear you talk about your Seahawk. I mean, you were very young when Walter Jones was at his peak.

And yeah, for our audio listeners, for instance, if you heard that clip, it was to Marcus Ware asking, tell me where Walter Jones is. So there's like game-recognized game, a Hall of Fame player, just absolutely fearful and worried about what Walter Jones was going to do. I think I was drafted when I was in maybe fifth or sixth grade. That's pretty young. So it wasn't that young.

Well, but then I would say he peaked for so long. So it was, you know, my point is that I was in high school when he was great. I was at the beginning of college, he was still, I mean,

he had something very rare, although I guess Wad and Kelsey, interesting continuity here, one player, one team, but you knew that great. You're certainly more likely to stay on one team unless you're too.

Um, where to even begin? I was waiting for the block. It doesn't have a cool nickname, but the, uh, 2005 NFC championship game. Talk about it. Play it. We got it. But it, you can talk over it. So tell us about it a little bit.

It's against the Panthers NFC championship 2005. I would contend. Yeah, there we go. Oh my God. Mike Rucker, RIP, that man had a family. One of the single most dominant run blocks by left tackle. in the history of the sport right there. Just taking him for a ride.

And he said as much too. I saw an interview with him that he did. And that's a play going to the weak side where, yeah, the defense bend is on his outside shoulder. So he has to get to the inside and block a 290 pound man and he does it 25 yards down the field. And it's part of one of the best...

Watch his feet. Sorry to... No, please. Please go on. about what big Walt's meant to you in that play. So again, like, if you, what's so remarkable about this, and maybe this is, if we're talking about Walter Jones and what made him great, because he was really good at everything. He's a man that size shouldn't have feet that move that quick.

And you can really see that on that play. Like sometimes, you know, when a guy's like, it's just like, it's just power and he's just nasty and he's just kind of like a snowplow, you know, moving the guy along. that's not what Walter Jones looked like. Like his feet looked like a tight end or something out there. It makes no sense.

And that was his calling card. Greg, he was so light on his feet and so unbelievably athletic at his size. I think he ran like a 4-640 famously. I think he played a little tight end in college or maybe the beginning of college or something. So he had that background. But it was just very rare and very unusual. And it wasn't even, I mean, he was. an unbelievable past protector.

He just never seemed to get taken by surprise or rattled. Again, a lot of that had to do with the lightness of his feet. You know, I'm sure you guys have some stats on this. He gave up so few sacks and so little pressure over the course of so many years. It was unbelievable. Yeah, so it's 5,700 plays in his career. Only 23 sacks in that entire time and nine holding penalties in that entire time. for first team all pros, two second teams.

He is the only player that was on the Hall of Fame and Pro Football References first team for the All-2000s. So I thought that was interesting. He's the only one from this era that did make that NFL 100 list, which did influence me. It was tough to pick him over Orlando Pace. Part of it was the way that Jones' career worked out.

You mentioned his longevity. Pace was incredible at the start. of his career, like right off the jump in like 97 through 99. And Jones was still peaking late into his career. So all those all pros that I mentioned are actually in the 2000s. He actually made it all the way, Mina, to the PFF era. And so these are like the last three years of his career. And he was the highest rated tackle in pass protection in those three years for PFF. And those are the final three years of his career. That's his mid-third. So I know, like, there's no perfect way to mention or to evaluate offensive line,

especially 20 years later. But when you have like the numbers like that and then you have all of the people that were around at the same time saying it, I found like a handful of players that were like, that's not just the best tackle. That's the best football player alive right now. Or that's the best football player I've ever seen. And enough of those, I was just like, well, he has to be on the list. And he could be higher if I wanted.

Who knows with offensive linemen? Pace was the same draft, right? He was. He was taken first and Jones went later. He was, well, no, but crazily enough, he was the Seahawks' second pick in that draft because they took Sean Springs fourth. And then they traded up with the bucks for Walter, which was just insane. And a little Seahawks lore, a lot of that had to do it because that was when Paul Allen took over the team.

This was before the rookie contract era. and Paul Allen was rich enough to afford to for his round rookies like a weird quirk of NFL history where he gave the green light to do it because that was I think right after the sale or something like that. Great call because I was wondering like I was looking at his contracts and stuff

and it's just like those first round contracts at the time they were like seven years long but they were huge for the time but you're absolutely right. They tried to trade up with the Jets. They thought they had a deal with the Jets at six in the end the Jets said no like when they were on the clock, but Bill Parcell's got a small assist apparently said, hey, we were talking

trade with the Bucks. I don't think they're going to want to sit there. You should call the Bucks. They call the Bucks and they make history taking Walter Jones. The contracts, too, are another funny part of Walter Jones's career who was notorious for just not showing up to camp. Again, this is all, you learn a lot about NFL contract and CBA history through just reading about Walter Jones. But every year he would just hold out and he would train on it. his own pushing like SUVs up and then just show up uh setz wickisham did a great story about it and us be in the magazine like 20 years ago by the way uh anyways um he i feel like cortez kennedy before him maybe was the last great seahawk but he really defined seahawks football for

an extraordinarily long amount of time yeah i loved hearing some old clips i found at like john Madden talking about him and to be as recognized as he was in like a pre-Internet era essentially as just that dude, you have to just be that good. And I did want to give a shout out to, you know, his linemate Steve Hutchinson, who wasn't always there. But once they got him in the trade, that is almost unquestionably the best left side of an offensive line in NFL history. I started covering the NFL for Roder World in 2003. And I would say that Seahawks offensive line. Not that people talk about all-time great offensive lines, but maybe they get forgotten

a little bit to me, because to me, they would be right near the top with the Cowboys of the mid-2010s. Of the best offensive lines that I've had a privilege to cover, and having Jones and Hutchinson next to each other

for a chunk of their primes is pretty crazy. We've been punished for it with 20 years of bad life since then. That's so true. So yeah, shout out to Steve Hutchinson did not make the list, but had to get Jones on there. Ravens fans, if you're curious. Jonathan Ogden, you know, only five years of his prime were in the 2000s.

So we missed a lot of the very best of his career. Some other really great tackles over the years. Lane Johnson did not make it for me. Jason Peters did not make it for me. Tyron Smith, who, man, it's close. At his very, very best, it's hard to like argue against him. but we can only have so many offensive linemen. We have a handful.

We have a few more to go. Let's go to our next guy, and our last guy we'll talk about with you, Mena. Number 21, Lamar Jackson. It's a second down and three. Jackson takes it himself. Look at him, dark, back and forth. Oh, he broke his ankles.

Now he's got an entourage, and he's got a touchdown. He is who. We want to play! 47-yard touchdown run by the magical quarterback Lamar Jackson. Wow! He's like Kobe Bryan. How you can't necessarily stop Kobe Brian.

Kobe Brian's going to get his at some point, and that was a great analogy. Lamar's going to get his at some point, and we know that, and everybody knows that, and everybody knows that. Fires to the end. Oh, touchdown! On that touchdown, Minko was back.

But he was reading my eyes. So I moved my to the right. I said, all right. Then I had to beat 20. Lamar Jackson makes a list at 21, two MVPs. A first team all pro in the year, 24, where he didn't win MVP, but probably his best season had led the yards per carry in terms of the entire NFL for different time.

Third all time, if you're into quarterback rating, by the way, like if you're just one of those old school people that like quarterback rating and wins, I know wins are not a quarterback stat, Mina, but he's third all time. in like winning percentage and quarterback. Passerating. Yeah. It's funny. Yes, passer rating.

It's funny to me that like he dominates those like old school traditional stats too. So there's no way to come at him. The passerating one is the one that blew my mind this season because he came close to the Rogers passer rating record and passerating for those who don't know doesn't take into account quarterback rushing, which is why it's kind of a useless stat, to be honest, because quarterback rushing is such a big part of the modern game. it's also QBR accounts for a point and whatever we don't have to get to it

but anyway point is like the quarterback who coming into this league I don't want to overplay the bill pulling thing but it was questioned by everybody whether or not he could be a pocket passer not whether to switch positions just came close to breaking the passer rating record

like I cannot stress enough and I was as much of a Lamar Jackson fan as anyone in that draft Dominique and I wrote long article about him, like staking our, you know, planting our flag. I did not think he would be this good. It is unbelievable what he has accomplished and he's only 28. Yeah, there's no way to say about really any prospect coming in that he is going to be

inner circle all time great. And that's what he is. And that's what I had to think about with this exercise. Like I was like, has he played long enough in the NFL? It's been seven years. Has he done enough? to get on this list over some really great quarterbacks. Because I didn't want to make this just like an all quarterbacks list.

Initially, I had them on like a little higher. Then I had them completely off. And I settled here and just decided like, especially of this generation. You know, Mahomes is coming up. Spoiler alert. But of this generation, he literally was the best player in the league either three times or if you want to split it this last year, like two and a half times. And he's the best running quarterback ever.

That like goes without saying. not just that he had the best season of all time in terms of rushing yards, but leading all the NFL, including the running backs and yards per carry four times, like to me, it's so crazy. But what you realize pretty quickly, and I think about that week one game, actually, in his first full season starting, it was 2018, right? Or 2019, sorry, against Miami.

And that game where he is just throwing bombs down the field, and he is so good throwing over the middle of the field. And that is the game where you kind of realize, oh, his legs are going to set up so much. much with his passing and he is such a good passer and that season you know his first full season as a starter he wins the MVP yeah i think he's also a guy where um the stats as unbelievably impressive as they are and you know we just discussed all of them still don't capture what he does to defenses and what he does on a football field and the way he i i would say more than any other player

I've watched, including Michael Vick, he has more gravity as a dual threat. And I love watching the Ravens on tape for this reason. I love the way he pulls defenses on a string still. And the opportunities that creates for the run game and other players is just unparalleled. He is also just the most electric, like dynamic runner. You know, just his style, the fact that he never had. appears to be moving at full speed is crazy. And then, oh, by the way, he also has, by the way, become the most accurate pastor in the NFL.

Because, you know, I was always a believer in his passing ability and his football IQ and whatnot. But he was not the passer. He is now earlier in his career. And that's another thing I really have loved about watching him and about his game. And this is same would apply to Josh Allen. He's gotten so much better, Greg. And he's 28. Right.

He's 28. I mean, he is. Both him and Allen, by the way, not only have gotten better. but mentally, I would put, like, up there with anyone in the league right now. Right, because when you think about that 2018 season or 2019 season, 2018, by the way, is sort of underrated when he came in and immediately started winning games for them and was like an immediate sensation and helps get them to the playoffs and belonged right away.

But he definitely needed to develop and he did that offseason in terms of his passing. You're right, that 2019 season, his running was absolutely setting up his passing and his passing was better than everyone realized. He led the league in passing touchdowns. QBR, ESPN's QBR that year, but now the way he can manipulate defenders, how he can anticipate, how he can throw over to the middle of the field, you have that part of it. And it's kind of like everyone who ever watched a running quarterback growing up, whether it was Randall Cunningham or Steve Young or even Dante Culpepper and just thought, like, that's so cool. Like,

if one guy could put it all together, like at the highest level, wouldn't that be the coolest football ever? And that is Lamar Jackson. He's done it. is that guy so um you are taking into account playoff accomplishments putting this list together how much are you dinging him for the fact that he's never been to a super bowl so he's never won a conference championship game um i imagine you know none i mean like moham you said moham's is on the list so it's not like there's anyone else in this regard but but you know does that do you think there be there are people screaming, how can you put a guy this high? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Do you think that there are people at home saying, like, well, he's never even won a conference championship game. How can you put him this high on the top 25 list? I just think the best way to evaluate a quarterback is over the course of a regular season. And he's done that so many times that it tells me that he will have that playoff success at some point. And that I'm not that worried about it. Like I saw it with Peyton Manning, who is one of the great. individual success stories of all time and it took a while for him to actually get it done

in the playoffs and it didn't change really who I think about him and think of all the times just because of the order it happened that like Aaron Rogers knocked on the door and didn't make it you know or Drew Breeze after winning that Super Bowl the one time like it took that long so I don't want to have to wait till he's 31 or 32 to recognize plus he's like he just he makes your jaw drop. Let's actually look at one of my favorite Lamar Jackson plays. Justice Hill is the back. Likely in motion. He bubbles it. Scoops it in, vacuves at home. Here comes Hubbard. Oh, he threw him away like a ragdowl. And he throws in the end zone. Caught. Caught for a touchdown by likely. Absolutely amazing. How in the world did he keep it together and then in five,

I can just do an entire show on Kevin Harlan calls of Lamar Jackson touchdowns. I'm almost regretting not having Harlan on this episode just so I could hear him react to that. But we'll have them on some calls later. I love that next not to really nerd out, but next gen stats does the completion percentage likelihood of throws and whether or not a quarterback seceded those. He's got to have the most like just preposterously low odds of completing passes, touchdowns, deep pass. and just pulling the rabbit out of his hat of any quarterback. I mean, Mahomes, I guess, would be above him. Yes.

I don't know, though. I mean, they're close. They both have, you know, all the best quarterbacks in the league right now, by the way, can layoffs to that. But Lamar, it feels like he has to lead in this guy moments like that. That's worth something. Like we're talking about best. we're talking about greatest.

To me... This freaking guy. This guy, he came to, and Josh Allen took a little slightly later developing, obviously came out a little later. Like, he ushered in this new generation. We were a while between, like, great, truly, like, all-time quarterbacks. It was really, like, Andrew Luck was this one guy in the middle of this desert that we thought was going to get there.

And then obviously, retired. early but it was between these guys and we thought maybe that like the next great quarterback would look like this and he does and I think his arm gets underrated Mina you mentioned like the crazy plays one one play I watched like watching this was a 62 yard in the air like air yards opposite hash throw where like he's at the eight and he hits I think it was the Sean Jackson of all people in stride like he's he does have a hose which you kind of forget about with everything else yeah he is a really strong arm and he has a really unique armed talent.

The game where him and Matthew Stafford just went toe to toe, not this year, but the previous year, where they were just launching nukes all over the place. It was one of my favorite football games last few years. I remember watching that and being like, these guys have a lot common because they both not only have strong arms

and they're not only preposterous and have like arm arrogance, but they also are doing like sidearmate. Like Lamar sidearms does it a lot. He's throwing off of like crazy platforms. He's, um, doing really, really special things just with his arm. I just had, I just interviewed Darius Lay.

And now that he's in the AFC North, I asked him, are you more wary of playing Joe Burroughs Bengals or Lamar Jackson's Ravens? I thought he would say the Bengals because of Jamar Chase and T. Higgins, right? But he was like, not Lamar. And it wasn't a knock on Burrow, but he just said there's just nothing more frustrating than having to defend two plays in one. so often against a quarterback. And that's just what makes him special. It's like he gets an extra play.

Like, it's crazy. I mean, what he's able to do. For the first handful of years, and it was kind of back last year, too, I thought the most unstoppable play in the league was when, you know, they did a, you know, a play action or RPO, and he pulls the ball in,

and he just takes eight yards to the side. Like, for four years, the defense was essentially giving him seven to eight yards just running to the sidelines. There are so many runs throughout his career where he never hits the ground. It's just him going out of bounds, him just like gliding out of bounds. Crazy. Yeah.

The ability to avoid contact is, I mean, knock out of wood, is just the most unique runner that I, I don't know. It's crazy watching him run. It just makes no sense. You're the best guest ever because you even brought up, like, people yelling at me about the playoffs. that's. I would have just like completely ignored it, which I, which I shouldn't. No, no, no, I shouldn't. I shouldn't because it was a first take. I'm certainly used to the playoff.

It's a great point. I think the first couple of years he played tight and he was a young player then, but that's also like Mahomes came in and played his very best like immediately in the playoffs. The last couple of years, he's had great games in the playoffs, whether

it's the divisional round or last year in the championship game, like doing everything he could, needing the drive and making it happen and playing well. So that also really the last two years especially and there was a couple of year gap there that they weren't in the playoffs and he

didn't play 21 and 22. So the last couple years also is part of the reason why I feel like he's over that hurdle and I think he has played well in the playoffs. But yes, this is more for the regular season. Sorry to the Josh Allen fans out there. Their guy is not going to be on this list. I mean,

I think that's fair, right? It's fine. Yeah. I'm sadden you have such a bad spot I know I don't want to make a comment on this I think that after Lamar well I don't know which how many quarterbacks there's five more

there's five more quarterbacks and that's the thing like I was thinking about Lamar let's say versus a Drew Breeze Drew Breeze is going to be on this list of course yeah and when I think about Lamar at his very very peak and what he's already accomplished you could argue I think that's as high or higher even than a great player like Drew Brees. So the highs are there.

I had to not put my, our guy, Philip Rivers on. I thought about doing it just to help his Hall of Fame case, but I don't think I have that kind of sway that it would really matter. Brett Fav was an interesting one, by the way, because he won his 3-8 MVP's in the 90s. And then you realized in the 2000s, he made

two first-team all-pros and four second teams. Like, he was an incredible player in that decade, even though he was even better the one before. Like, you know, you got your guy Russ. There's a lot of great quarterbacks that could have made this list. Matt Ryan. But you can't make it an all quarterback's list. But I did want one of these current guys, at least at the back end.

Yeah, I think you chose the right one, non-Mohms division. We're biased, though. I mean, you wrote the article back in the day. Check out Mina Kimes. Thank you so much, Mina. Of course, it's the Mina Kimes show featuring Lenny. And then the big time new podcast, viewer discretion. I like that she's tackling pop culture with her friends.

friend, David Dennis. TV pod. Check it out. Right now we're doing Love Island. So not everybody's watching Love Island, but subscribe, keep your eye on the space. Even if you aren't. We're going to do more shows. We're going to do Love is Blind again, of course.

And we also take recommendations. Love it. Yeah. I don't need to tell everyone to check out Mina. Our next episode will be the second edition of NFL Daily's 25 players of the last 25 years. We will be joined by NFL Network's national reporter. Steve Weiss, looking forward to that one. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here.

And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else. It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant.

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