NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - 40s and Free Agents: Mina Kimes’ Favorite Players in the 2025 NFL Draft

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

NFL Network analysts Gregg Rosenthal and Daniel Jeremiah are joined by ESPN’s Mina Kimes on “40s and Free Agents” in the countdown to the 2025 NFL Draft. The trio shares their favorite players to watch in this draft class, and debate how a prospect’s traits are weighed in the selection process as opposed to college production.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies. To evaluate team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front-offer. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else. It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sundays. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast.

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Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to 40s and Free Agents. It is crossover week here between NFL media and ESPN. So we've got one of their biggest stars. Mina Kimes joining Daniel and I. Of course, we're repaying the favor, sending one of our biggest stars DJ to NFL live later in the week. And I'm also here.

Welcome to the show, Mina. It's good to see you. I'm so happy to be here. I've been listening, first of all, really enjoying this new element of your podcast. I don't know whose side to take, because you guys have that kind of married couple bickering thing going on. And I was thinking I could come on and like take a side, but I'm friends with both of you. And I really don't want to pick a side. But I do think, don't you, doesn't it say a lot about Greg that he tries to dress like he's in a Seattle grunge band just to try and curry favor?

Like, that's a little gross, to be honest. DJ, as always, playing to the network audience, not even thinking about the podcast audience out there. But, you know, I'm just trying to be. Close your eyes and imagine every flannel we wore in high school, and then you all know exactly what Greg looks like. Everything old is new again. And it's not a fair fight between me and DJ on this show

because this is his time of the season. Look, we're only a week out from the NFL draft. So we're going to really skip sort of talking about the NFL side of things, at least to the start of the show. And I thought as we've gotten deep into this draft process, obviously DJ's been talking about these guys forever. Mina's been studying them. At this point in the process,

who are the players we're most excited to talk about, that you never get sick of talking about, that you love watching on tape. So we're keeping it simple to start the show. We're just going to do favorite players to watch in this draft. And Mina, you are a guest. Why don't you get us going? I'm curious who you go with.

Well, this is a player that I have definitely texted. to DJ about, which, by the way, this is my relationship with him is this time of year. As soon as the NFL season ends and I start cramming these players, I just text DJ, oh my God, this guy, oh my God, this guy. And he very graciously replies, yes, that guy. I've been watching him for months. And he probably knows where I'm going with this, because this is the first one where I felt like that Kyle Hamilton, like, Love Affair watching his tape.

That's Jahad Campbell, the offball linebacker out of Alabama. I love him. I haven't felt this way about an offball linebacker, maybe since Roquan. I was trying to think of the last prospect, guys, where I've really felt like they had, he had the tools, the physical and mental tools to become a special middle linebacker in the NFL. And I feel that way about Campbell. The athleticism is insane. I know he showed out at the combine, but it also shows up all over his tape.

True sideline to sideline ability, that's the aspect that reminds me of Roquan. He's a plus pass rusher. You saw that on display in the LSU game and other games. And he can cover. I think there's still elements that need refinement as any linebacker is a really hard position to play in the NFL. It's going to take a second in terms of, you know, the route recognition, diagnosing some of the misdirection in the backfield, that kind of thing. He can be a little bit overaggressive. But DJ, I just feel like his ceiling is up there with any young linebacker's seen lately. Yeah, two points, which I'm a huge. huge fan of his game as we've discussed in the past but um i always love length off the ball like to me

everything with the with the shell coverage you're going to see like that just makes windows shrink when you can you know use your length and clog lanes people think about length oh as a pass rusher um you know in coverage you know it can help no this is like you as a zone dropper that's just that's a huge asset to have to navigate around that offensively is very challenging so i love that about him i love the fact that the guy is an edge rusher in high school so he has that background so you know as a blitzer he's dynamic he's very comfortable with that but yet he's such a good football player that when he got to alabama with two you know first round edge players they're like we still have to figure out a way to get this guy on the field like that that says a lot not just

what you see on the tape but what you hear in his background and how how impressive he was there i am annoyed by me on this so i guess he's going to take de j's jay's side because i wanted to take jihad cambo i only have so many hot draft takes not that liking jihad campbell is a hot draft take but I'm with you, like watching him track down, you know, running backs and quarterbacks. Like, to me, he'd be the ideal guy that you'd want going up against the mobile quarterback to just make sure he's not getting to the edge. He reminded me a little bit of Navarro Bowman and any of the things that you look at where, okay, it's going to take him a little bit to recognize routes and things like that. We talked about this earlier. Yeah, that's true of every offball linebacker in the entire college football landscape.

So that's not going to be different for him. And this draft is so interesting because I feel like after the top four, anyone could go in the top seven or so and it wouldn't be that shocking. Like, why couldn't Jahad Campbell go that high? I feel like he could. Is that like crazy?

I'm looking to see. Yeah, I look at the draft. I mean, are the bucks at 18 the floor? He's my ninth player. So I mean, yeah, if he was the fifth pick in the draft, it wouldn't, that doesn't floor me. He'd be a fun. he'd be a fun chess piece to work with now he is a little beat up which i think if you if you draft

a linebacker from alabama like beat up is going to make his way its way into the report because that's just how physical they play it in practice as well as as the conference they play in so maybe that could ding him a little bit he's not healthy going through the end of the process here but gosh his tape is really good all right dj you give us uh one of your favorite players that that you've had a chance to watch yeah and we've talked about him but jaday baron to me has been kind of my my guy through this process of the tape is so good and he can play anywhere but to me just leave him as a nickel let him uh let him cover in there let him be a force player against the run where he does not miss tackles let him be a dynamic blitzer he takes

the football away now there's a little there's little intricacies that are a little different in his game than cooper de jean and then brian branch but they're definitely from the same family um and i thought the league unfairly punished those two players and they slid to the second round and I think this is an opportunity for the league to have a do-over on Barron. I just love the way he plays. Yeah. I was going to say those two players come to mine. It's not a comp with Dun & Witherspoon with the Seahawks per se. But in terms of thinking about like sealing and regarding that position and the cornerbacks with maybe who can play only inside, but how much they can still impact a game, he brings that same physicality. They

desire for hitting the way he closes on the ball is really special. I think, guys, if I was to say, what's the difference between him in a Witherspoon? He's a little, I'm a little less confident in him in man coverage. You saw Witherspoon in college had like some really good reps on the perimeter. And Barron, at times I thought he gave up also a little bit too much underneath. But I really just love the way he plays. I feel like for him, the question for a team and how high he goes, is just going to be like, do you think he can play outside? And if not, how high would you value a nickel in today's NFL? I feel like you would value it almost the same as outside. Maybe you would disagree, DJ, or especially in this draft, and I'll keep

going back to it where it's, you're just looking for guys who can come in and contribute at a high level. Like, that's, that's a starting position. Do GMs look at that differently, DJ? It has been, it has been a starting position for a long time, but they speak out of both sides of their mouth because it's in the room like it is its own position it is a full-time player in the league right now and yet we get in the draft and every year these inside guys fall and then they end up not all of them some of them picking off passes and winning Super Bowls and then you sit there and go like maybe maybe you guys should have you know believed your own words about the value of that position so I don't know it frustrates the crud out of me if you can't tell and I like that you

are trying to be the change that that you want in the world DJ putting them up high Real quick. Real quick. I got a text. This is totally off the subject, but I just thought of it. I'm going to read you this text real quick. Again, this is just totally, totally unrelated. But I think you're two of the people that would appreciate this. This is from John Spanos for the Chargers. This is the end of his text. I should add as the co-chairman of the future of football committee, we were the ones pushing the virtual line to gain measurement. I apologize for all the grief you've taken over your podcast name. So I got an official apology for Move the Sticks now. being an antiquated name. So I just wanted to get that out there. Are you going to change it or you're sticking with it? No. No, those sticks are still there. They're backup. They're not necessarily, you know, they're not, but they're there. Those gentlemen are still going to be holding those sticks way in the periphery. If they're needed, if they're called upon, they'll be ready. All right. I want you guys to go more than me. I want to hear what you say on these, but I will throw out one favorite player because I finally, you know, got finished with the wide

receivers this week. And I don't see him on DJ's top 50. So I am picking a bone with him. And that's Kyle Williams of Washington State. I was just watching these wide receivers, one after another after another. And I really like a lot of them. I totally am with you about Matthew Golden, why you would view him as your number one receiver after Travis Hunter. There's a lot of good receivers. But he was the first one that I looked at a little bit like Brian Thomas Jr.

a year ago where I thought just he moves different. And I understand why maybe he's not going to go in the top 20 picks, but I don't understand why he doesn't have a little more pop because, man, he is beating guys off the school. scrimmage so fast. His footwork and beating press for someone, his size seems so incredible. He's got yak. He's got attitude.

I would draft him just for the touchdown celebrations. Like, give me that with Kyle Williams. Like, he just seems like he is going to translate. I don't get why he's not a top 50 player. So I'll start with DJ. Just like, what gives here? Like, well, what is he missing? I like Kyle Williams.

I like him a lot. And the senior bowl was a great example. what you're talking about and you know you watch those cutups there his releases are as good as anybody he can separate at the top the name that i wrote down when i watched him was he gave me like an emmanuel sanders like a young emmanuel sanders just because of his quickness and separation um and the way he runs routes he's not going to be the most physical guy um but he's he's a winner like he can win at the line of scrimmage he can win at the top of route so i think he's going to go my my guess is he's going to go early third round um but yeah gregg we see guys

guys go on that range all the time where the next year we sit in there going why the heck didn't this guy go faster i would love nothing more than to fight you but i really i can't fight you on this one did he run only like he ran like a four four right i believe at the com something i remember thinking it would be faster he ran a four four flat yeah so i thought he was five 10 five 190 okay i thought it would be faster it was kind of like the inverse golden where golden ran a lot faster than i thought his tape looked to me uh kyle william that's a little slower than his tape looks. I'll throw something out with him.

DJ usually weigh on this. Yesterday on NFL Live, we had to do wide receiver team fits. I throw him to the Chargers, because I don't think they're going to go wide receiver early in the draft. They desperately need speed. I feel like he is that classic Z, pardon me, who can stretch the field, create some room for Ladd-McConkie to work underneath.

What do you think of that fit? I like it. To me, that was when I left the stadium in Houston in the playoffs. So it was like, this team has to get faster and more dynamic. And Ladd McConkey's unbelievable, but imagine him with either a field stretching tight end or a vertical over the top receiver. It's just going to create more space for him. So I think that's just like a production multiplier there. Not only would a guy that can get up the top, like Kyle would have his own production, but I think it would be great for Lad.

I mean, he was playing with on an offense that was tough to watch with a quarterback that was not putting the ball really in the right spot for him. and he was making those catches. So you talk about strength, but to me, he was good at the catch boy. I'm all in on Kyle Williams. Maybe I was just hoping for a guy that could be my guy,

and I finally got to him, and I was excited about Kyle Williams. Let's hear from you, Mina, another favorite player to watch. Okay, I'm going to skip Carson, Schuessig, because I just did a linebacker, but I like him, too. And I'm going to do a corner

who is a little bit, well, I think he could be, or end of the first, maybe beginning the second. That's Trey Amos. Ole Miss, the corner. So I guess the commonality between Campbell is I just love long arms

players and it is the first thing you noticed, DJ when you watch train. I mean, I just, the way he uses his lengths to disrupt and also the timing of it, by the way, because sometimes guys with long arms can get caught interfering at the college level. You really didn't see that. I thought he did a really good job

of being cautious and timing it well. I also like the fact that he is, I think, coverage agnostic. You could play him impressed man. They played him off. I thought he was good at both. There are still elements of his game that need refinement. I think some tackling issues show up. That's like every cornerback in the draft, but he's decent against the run too.

And he's got just, I feel like the size that a lot of teams need for an outside corner right now. Yeah, I think I had him going to the Rams bottom one. and it just felt like kind of a Rams type player too because he's just he's instinctive he's been through a full process like you've seen him he's got a long track record he's gone against elite players so you've got a chance to make a pretty good evaluation on him

I go back through my notes and you know outside fluid smooth the only question I had was off the LSU game because they ran away from him a little bit there so I was like okay how much like pure deep speed recovery speed does he have and he ran four-four four three. So I mean, at least from a time standpoint, he cleaned that up. But I thought he had instincts from off. I thought in press, like he'll vary what he's doing. He can be patient, doesn't lunge, doesn't get cut out of position. But like Mina said, can use his length to his advantage there. And especially at the catch point, he's aware he can poke the ball away. So literally if he, if I didn't see the LSU game, I'd probably have him like in the 20s, you know, like early 20s on my list. When it's all said and done, he'll end up in the mid 30s on my final. list, but I can't divorce myself from the LSU game because he is going to see, he's going to

get challenged vertically like that. So that was my only negative. Mina, you said you like cornerbacks with long arms. What other traits are you generally looking for? And are they all just like recreating great Seattle Seahawks of the past? It's, I think I really like, is there something, do you have like a signature trait is kind of something I'm looking for in the first couple of rounds because, you know, pretty much, to be honest, every cornerback in this class is somewhat flawed. There's no top five process, even like Will Johnson's like, Derek Stingley's not walking through that door.

Oh, wait. Hunter, sorry. Yeah, I was going to say like Travis Hunter, he's his own thing, though. He's his own conversation. I know, but like I also feel like doing an entire segment of favorite players in the draft and not just at least saying Travis Hunter would be the number one overall player, at least to Me, just as a cornerbacker, just as a receiver. No, I keep doing that. I'm like, well, there's no really truly special of this.

And then I'm going, I forgot to mention Travis Hunter. Do they have something special, I think? And like, Barron, it's the physicality to me. That's my favorite thing about him. Amos, it's the length. Hairsten, it's the speed. So I'm kind of just looking for, can we build off of something? And then, if you have a flaw, is it something that can be improved upon?

Or are you just, frankly, too slender and the frame is never going to fill out to the point? That was such a miss for me with four. a couple years ago. And that's something I've been watching out for, you know, because I don't want to jump to the conclusion. Ah, he'll fill out. He'll get some, you know, be able to tackle. It's like, some guys never do.

So I think that's it, looking for one special trade and then if the flaw can be fixed. This is the last show we'll do, DJ, before your final prospects list come out. So any chance I can convince you to just move Travis Hunter up to one to finish it. It's going to be. Oh, I thought you were going to ask me if I was going to take the Mason Graham out of my top 50.

I thought that was you know, take that you were going to come with there. No. He hates Mason Graham with a passion. I've never seen somebody despise another human being

so much. No. Mason Graham, quietly a little bit divisive with some people that I've just chatted with. You know, he's still my DT one,

but yeah. A little divisive. Greg doesn't think he should be drafted. You avoided the question. None of this is true. I was just trying to like find little mitts to pick with your rankings.

But I do, I do think when you have like Babe Ruth and Shohei Ota in the draft, you might now, you know, in the end, when we look back in a few years, you're going to want them at one. So that's just my final push. Who's another one of your favorites, DJ? I can go through a couple. One of them, this is like my, here's my hot scouting take or whatever. Tyler Warren, it's like he's definitely getting prospect fatigue going through this process. And so, like I talked to somebody the day and they were like,

you know, they use them at quarterback and some Wildcat stuff. And then they move them around and use him here and use him there. But like, you know, how much is that all going to translate and what, you know, this, that and the other, stripping that all that stuff away. I'm like, so to summarize, he's really good at football. Like, uh, like, that's, I'm okay with that. Like, yeah, and was just dominant. And they had to figure out every which way possible, just put the ball in his hands and make other human beings try and get him on the ground. Like that's, I'm a fan. I think there's a little more nuance and polished to him. And you can even see on the highlights we're showing here. If you're listening to it, just take my word for it.

He can't separate. Like, he, he is so big, and he's kind of a strider. So I know we didn't get a chance to run a 40, you know, going through the process. And it's, you know, I can't remember a year. We've had this many guys that don't run. That's just the future. It's here. That's not going to happen.

He would run a much faster 40 time than people think is my prediction on him. And I talked to guys who were at live games with him and they're, that you feel his speed. You might not see it on the video when you're watching the tape, but when you get around him and see how strong his stride is. He covers ground. You feel it. I just think he's a fantastic football player and he's one of my favorites. I get that. I also get why some teams would be scared of them.

I think I would be just a little bit. Like if you were looking for a tight end and you have this guy Colston Loveland available who just fits, okay, that's what we see in the NFL. Plug and play. Right. That looks like a top 10 potential tight end. Then you have this other guy who's really just this unique guy and you have to figure it out like i get i get that i on my pod i didn't it's not a player comp but i found myself talking about

divo samuel when i was talking about tyler warren which is to say oh he's an absolute freak an absolute mismatch nightmare with the ball in his hands he's a human monster truck and he just has a lot of very unique unicorny type traits and so with the right coach and the right situation i think he has the ability to be one of the three best tight ends in the NFL but i will say and this is the thing that I don't think it's quite fatigued so much as like as I thought about it. If he ended up with the wrong team who's just like, hey, man, just stand in line and block and, you know, we want to play action. I don't think he'll ever reach his potential.

So I do think fit does matter a little bit with him. I don't think it's limiting. I'm not saying he's like boom or bust per se. And because I feel like sometimes when you say fit matters, it sounds like you're denigrating the player a little bit. He's not universal. Yeah. And he's a tight end too, which is a unique position a little bit, right?

So I do think the right, I mean, how cool would it be if Ben Johnson got his hands on him, for example, just to throw that out there in Chicago? I don't know if that's going to have. But I just, you know, I just wanted to land with the right team. Reminds me a little of Jeremy Shockey coming out and maybe a little like Shockey, a little like Debo and some, like he reminds me a little, taste some Hill in a way. It's like you might, that first contract might be the big one because the way he plays, who knows how he's going to age. But that, that's for another. Blankin, help me with the name. Why am I Blankin on the Steelers tight end

from like a decade ago? Heath Miller? Heath Miller. Yeah. When he's, I was in the Ravens draft room and Heath Miller had a back injury so he couldn't run and we're watching him slide down the board and Ozzie Newsom really early said, this guy's going to fall to the Steelers isn't he? Like this guy's going to fall to the Steelers and it was like

oh my gosh, of course. And it was like he was just a mauler brawler and he was perfect for the Steelers had an unbelievable run. So I kind of, I do like Mina's idea there with the Bears, but selfishly, I'm like, can this league be dumb enough to let the Chargers get their hands on this guy? And we can recreate the Stanford offense from 15 years old. Always thinking about his chargers. More to come on 40s and free agents back in a minute.

What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from Scatomeroom. reports and player development to team building philosophies coaching trends and how front offices construct winning rosters every week we study the tape talk to decision makers and share the insights you won't find anywhere else is the kind of conversation that connects the dots from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow we break down the draft analyze matchups and

evaluate how teams put it all together on game day plus we dig in the coaching strategies roster construction and the trends that shape the league year after year year. Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture. If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now I'm Drew Franklin, and this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit.

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on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael F. Florio, and together we host the NFL fantasy football podcast.

Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. All right, we'll fly through a couple more quickly.

It did say favorite players to watch this. This is not projecting who's going to be the best pro, but I haven't had a chance to talk about Jalen Milrow with DJ. And if you put him in the NFL right now, DJ, how many quarterbacks are better at running? the football than Jalen Milrow. I would argue it's possible the answer is zero. I mean, at this point in Lamar Jackson's career and Josh Allen, it's like the most

efficient playing football when he runs the ball. He is one of the best runners of the ball at quarterback I've ever seen coming out of college. And you can find like the great games where he does make key throws that help them win the game. So it's not like they're not there. And I get why he's not going to go in the top 20 picks or maybe even the first round, although they did invite him to the draft. But if that's your baseline, to me, that's such an exciting baseline that at worst,

I feel like he's a better taste of Hill. And to me, that's more exciting than any quarterback in this draft. It's more fun to watch other than Cam Ward and Shadur Sanders. So, like, he's just one of my favorite players. And I would just, I just want to be the team that's dumb enough to take a chance on him and at least find a role. Hopefully he gets the right coach. We talked about fit.

I don't know who you think would be the right fit. or if you agree with me at all. But I think people are underrating that as a baseline, that he would be that good unless you disagree. That same logic got Anthony Richardson picked in the top five. Right, which is why it's a good late second or third pick. I'm not saying you take them that early. I'm just saying, like, you could do something with him.

He is a phenomenal runner. And we were talking because I love baseball before about baseball. And on baseball, they have a skill like all the way up to 80. He is an 80 runner. Like he is in top of the shelf, elite, elite runner. his running trait is of this entire quarterback class he's the only quarterback that has a singular trait that's at the very top of the ladder so I that's what I would agree with you a wholeheartedly he's a dynamic runner whereas to the point where it's like you'll get crucified if you ever talk about players switching positions but I'm like gosh it is intriguing watching him like gosh what if he was playing running back because he's such a talented runner not to you know to insult him but the the other component the the vision the decision the decision decision making, that it's so troubling and it's so below the line that it's like, how early do you make that move there? It's just been not enough evidence. He had a couple games early

in the year where you get excited about, but the more, like the Oklahoma game, I can't get that out of my head. This might be pertinent to the, I know we're talking production versus traits, but the thing I find concerning about him as a quarterback is that he's played so much quarterback, you know, right, at a high level. So, and this is kind of the production versus traits, right? It's a thing that gets thrown into that discussion. When you're asking, can, because I think part of the optimism for Anthony Richardson came from the fact that he had played so little, right? So when you take a guy like this who's been in a, you know, top shelf program, played with the best coaches and you're seeing some of these issues, uh,

in terms of at the quarterback position, it gets you a little bit concerned about, okay, yes, there's logic. So let's get him in the building and see if we can develop him, He's already been in some pretty damn good buildings. That said, I think with the running, the thing I want to just say, and you guys are kind of hitting on this, especially when you talk about a potential position change, he is doing the nuanced things with the Bonas hands that it's not just like, oh, he's big and fast, right?

He runs with exceptional vision. He sets up defender. like I found his runs in like entrancing so I hear you Greg I'm saying he's fun to watch I have a lot of skepticism about whether or not you can be quarterback in the NFL but um you know it's all in where you take him I think it's all in where you take him right I mean uh I know I'm updating myself here but Pat White got taken uh in the in the second round of the draft we've almost over corrected so much that if even if you only did look at him as a guy that could be a package player like a Tassum Hill type of guy to me if I would take

plus Tayson Hill in the third round. I don't think that that's crazy at all. He's going to go in the second round. Somebody's going to he's a lottery ticket. I would take a plus tasem Hill and hope that he could have, you know, he's not going to be Malik Willis that quick probably of a developmental track, but you would hope maybe he gets there in a couple

years. All right, I know we've honked a lot. Why don't you guys do like one more speed round if you want each, just because I want to hear more from you too. Mina, why don't you go first? Go ahead, Mina. I'll be quick. I'm Marian Hampton. Since I've done defense, I'll skip Harman. I just think in a lot of drafts he would be RB1, just so complete.

He's kind of good at everything. I think like he's has, you know, ideal size. He's got short area, burst, top end long speed is good too. He's explosive. He can get north-south and move guys. He has a really good balance, frankly. He forces a lot of missed tackles. He can even pass.

He's still got a little bit of work to do there, but I think he can be a plus pass protector in the NFL. He can catch passes. I mean, DJ, like, what can't this dude do? I think maybe like the agility isn't elite, but other than that, he's just, it's such a complete prospect to me. Yeah, he just looks apart too. I mean, he is, he is a big physical guy.

And the interesting thing, when I talked to the folks, I think I told Greg about this previously, but talk to the guys that worked him out and trained him. When they do their onboarding, they do all the physical testing. And this guy had a lot of touches. he carried the ball a ton so a lot of usage and they said when they checked him in and did the full medical workup like he was full go ready to go day one like did not have a hangnail like he his body handled that beautifully so he's just built for it he's built for the NFL he can catch it um he can hit home runs he can get you know talk about the north south stuff he hits and

goes like there is a legit burst to him now he doesn't have elite like wiggle you know side to side make you miss, but it's not, he's not tight either. So he's just kind of middle of the road in that aspect of it. But I don't know what else is wrong with him. I think he's like my 12th and 13th player in the entire draft. And I don't, I don't see any way he doesn't go in the first right. Yeah, I see what happened here. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose. Amina, I feel like picked a lot of DJ's favorite players too. A lot of guys, like just where he's higher than consensus. But I'm with you. We all agree on Amerian Hampton. We all agree on John Campbell. They're all, they're both incredible. All right, finish it up, DJ.

Um, got a couple different ways I could go here. I've talked so much about Trayvon Henderson's past protection. It's, it's been said. It's been done. It is very fun. Like just entertainment though, his past protection real is as fun as anything in this whole draft. I've used the phrase,

it's like, it's like the matrix when he hits guys, because the guys that he hits, you'll see the arms go flailing and like get knocked back. Like, it's a site. It's a, it's aesthetically pleasing to watch him buckle guys in past protection. but Jack Bash I love the story I love the kid I love the you know

I hate unfortunate awful situation he was put in with his brother's passing but the way he navigated that handled that and then we're at the senior bowl

and the guy catches the game winning touchdown like everything about this guy just screams he's a total stud and he competes for the ball up in the air he's just everything he does

is physical and tough the first guy rarely gets him on the ground after the catch like he's just it's not a scouting term and it's cliche but like the guy's just a freaking war daddy like he's I'm betting on him like he's gonna be a good player former tight end who has like the physicality of a tight end you can see him using him a little like a tight end maybe not the blocking but just the power slot kind of play he's Joe Jerovicious on steroids not to make the white guy to white guy receiver comparison but like he is like when young Joe Jerovicious entered the league he couldn't really run but nobody could tackle him like he could just get open and nobody could get him on the ground like he's just well beyond that i think um i said i had a much more people are going to be mad at this i said he was bobo plus on my pod jaco bo in seattle which i it's another white guy cop

um hey bobo underrated underrated um obo plus is actually a good player um i i just think uh there's so many schemes so many coaches in the afl right now who want wide receivers who can block and get yards after the catch and are physical and reliable to catch me so i just think uh you think there's going to be a place for him in this league maybe maybe mac hollons so we can cross races there and i'll go mac hollons there is my cop you like that i like it i don't know uh yeah i don't know where i'm taking i think he wears shoes so there's there's not a pure comparison there but yeah mac hollins day one free agency signing by the new england page it's all right let's take a quick break on 40s and free agents we will be back in just a minute

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Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on 40s and free agents. Mina, I couldn't help but notice this post you put on Blue Sky this week. You said you've been listening to 40s. free agents lately and you sent out the ideal two-person podcast has one fairly upbeat normie usually the host and one grump who loves to complain unbeatable formula um am i the fairly upbeat normie is this our formula no you're reverse the normie yeah yeah come on you you know that gregg you know he's the upbeat normie you had mason grant playing in the cfl for crying out

Come on. Did we inspire that? The first thing I thought was like, who is she talking about there? Well, apparently every podcast, because every single podcast to Earth weighed in. They were like, yep, this is my exact dynamic. I like to think of myself as an army. DJ, let's talk about something that I know you wanted to dive into a little bit about production and traits. Yeah, I think this draft's defined by a couple themes.

And one of them is with these edge rushers is we've got guys with all the physical traits. They're explosive, you know, Shamar Stewart, kind of the poster boy for that. Then we've got the other guys who have all this production who maybe, you know, lack some of those traits, the elite physical gifts. And it's, well, what's better? Like these teams are having to make these decisions in the draft room, how you stack these guys and how you rank them. What's better? So we put our guy Jack Andrade in research on it and had him pull, you know, the way we approached was, let's look at all the guys, the top pass rushers in the league. So everybody with 10 plus sacks, then let's try and work backwards to what they were in college.

And Mina, I was hoping we were going to get the, well, well, there you have it. It's all the traits guys, you know, worked or didn't work and vice versa. And it turns out it's a completely mixed bag, which makes this debate and discussion all the more interesting. Yeah. There are examples of past rush shirts. We were just talking about who had minimal college production and went on to have great NFL careers. DeNeil Hunter, right, is the poster child for this. is he i mean i gosh i had forgotten he had few so if i remember him being raw in college but

holy smokes um like he i so this is last 17 games he had three and a half sacks in college um but so it is all over the place there are examples of guys with little production who went on to have success for the most part though that there's more examples of guys who just didn't pan out i would say so it is i think still a pretty big red flag i for me and i've spent a lot lot of time watching and thinking about Stewart in particular. It comes down to a lot of things you got to look at. First, I'm looking at the underlying numbers. So it's not just sacks. You're looking at pressure rate, pass rush wind, things like that. Numbers are getting better and better. And seeing if there's something, like maybe he was getting a lot of pressure,

but not a lot of sacks. Stewart got a decent amount of pressure. Finishing was clearly the problem. I'm looking at positional changes like Michael Pars is not here, but obviously he played off the ball. So, you know, was this player given the opportunity? And then speaking of opportunity, I'm also just trying to figure out how are they used in the offense, the guy who was asked to line up inside a lot. I remember we were, you know, that's certainly the case with some of these, actually some of the guys here and Tramon Walker comes to mind.

So you're trying to like paint as much of a picture as you can to try to understand. Are there any extraneous factors that explain why this player didn't have the production that would merit a first round pick? Yeah, I think, and sorry, Greg, I'll just just, jump in here real quick on that, because Georgia is a great example of this. Yeah. If you look at Georgia, Trayvon Walker, Nolan Smith, Jalen Walker, Michael Williams. So some in the past and some in the present.

And to me, they're easier for me to explain. When I look at Trayvon Walker lining up in tight alignments and not being loosened up to be able to use his gifts, you know, to rush the quarterback. When I look at a team that he played on that was blowing the doors off of everybody and they had a deep defensive line group, he didn't get quite as many opportunities. and Nolan Smith the same way. So I could project what they were going to be and what they were going to do,

and I felt comfortable with that. Now, that being said, Trayvon Walker, if that was him and Hutchinson, that was the debate. I was Hutchinson. To me, Hutchinson had the traits as well and the production.

So that's why I was a Hutchinson guy, you know, comparing those two players. But like with Stewart, Stuart is freed up. He is opened up to get those opportunities. You know, he does have good pressure rate.

He does, he has a lot of when the battle lose the wars when you study him and I think finishing is a gift and is a trait and being able to

locate the quarterback on the move being able to bend and wrap and finish he doesn't do that very well he's very twitched up he's very explosive

but like that's why with him I come down more on the like is a Raku side of things and I might be you know I might be in the minority

on that but I just think this guy knows how to rush the passer it's going to take him a little while to develop some more power. I think it's in his body.

He's got long arms. He's compact. I think he's going to be fine that way. I just, to me, I had a harder time with Shamar Stewart than I did with those Georgia guys. Yeah, I'm with you. Azaraku was on my list

if we kept going on and on about my favorite players to watch in this draft because he's got so much he can do. And you look at the guys who did test well and then did get taken pretty high that are relative success stories,

let's say like Trivon Walker and Adafayoa. And you still see as pros what held them back from production in the NFL and in college. And so like O.A I would say is a good example of a guy who like didn't do much in college and has been a solid enough pick

but still kind of doesn't have that complete game. And I think you could say that about Chauvin Walker even though he's improved at all. It makes me think though, DJ with less of these players testing, what positions do you think are the most important? Because there's not

a lot of examples either of guys who didn't test, that tested really poorly and had great numbers as pros. There's some, Jonathan Grenard is an interesting one who didn't test well. Kyle Van Nuys had a great career. There's different ways you can look at it. But what positions to you are the most important where you want to get that athletic testing? Corner, first and foremost, because that's where your speed matters more than any other position. So, you know, you can go off of the GPS stuff from the college tape, but there's teams that don't trust that necessarily if a guy's not challenged very often he's only running as fast as the guy that he's covering um so you don't get to see him open up a ton so they and they don't just

totally trust those numbers so the no 40 thing i think has more of an impact on that position but even pass rushers like there's so few guys that ran and it has been a pretty good tell like there's very few exceptions as you mentioned gregg of guys who can't run and attend split don't have that burst and explosiveness that translate because so much of winning as a pass rusher as you're get off. So I was talking to teams like, how are you getting around this? And one team I talked to said they have force plate jumps, you know, from the combine and they've used that as an indicator of explosiveness. And they've tried to rely on that. Other coach I talked to said it's never been more important for us to get out and work these guys out to be able to feel, feel it. Like, you know, you've got a little pad in front of you and you guys doing a getoff. You can feel his takeoff. You can feel, you know, when he gets in you with his hands, like what type of explosiveness they have. But it's, I think it's, It's more important to have people to understand the scouting side of it now because it's harder the numbers. It's a buffet. It's like, I'll take a vertical jump.

I'm not going to do this. I'll take one of these. I'm not going to do that. Along those lines, I just pulled up Shamar Stewart's relative athletic score data, which I think is. So he was a 999, right? Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Ran super fast, a straight line, vertical, broad.

There's no agility testing. and to DJ's point about well what are you seeing on tape I kind of think that shows up the agility is like a big part of the issue to me I that's the finish at the top of his it doesn't quite have the bend

it's funny because all of yeah so the other thing I think that would be concerning about me just from because I like I said this is almost like a mystery right like okay this dude is like Adonis what is going on so we have to solve that mystery so we try to solve it by getting all context I talked about how was he used is it the Georgia defense how much did he play whatever um for me

like guys I was like literally just like sitting there and watching his reps over and over trying to figure out like what's going wrong here what am I missing and something that jumped out to me outside of the flexibility is it also shows up against the run like he can set a really hard edge and he can win and handle you know pretty much anyone who's in his face but he misses tackles too he kind of flies by here and there and I that's also concerning because when you think about production, we're talking just about sacks, but I actually think it shows up in the run game as well. And that makes me worry about whether or not this can be fixed. Yeah. And like you can see in the Missouri game, he chucks

Membu, who's a big, powerful guy. Like he'll chuck him at the point of attack. Like that one off play and you show it like, oh gosh, like it's all in there and set the edge, do all those things. And then as Mina is talking about, I love the effort. He chases plays from the backside. Like crazy, you'll see him run past teammates. He runs past teammates on the way to the ball. It plays hard. But then you just kind of look down at your paper and you look down at your notes. And I'm like, well, I don't really have the tackles for loss.

I don't really have the like impact plays. And, you know, so he's a tricky one. I love how big, strong and explosive he is. Combine that with how hard he plays, how competitive he is. I don't want to say that, I mean, the guy's like my 26th or 27th player. He's first round pick. But to me, it's just not an easy evaluation. Yeah.

And that's going to be the case. maybe more and more as these players skip testing. Obviously, he wanted to test because if you can test like him, you're going to. But it was like you said the future is here in terms of not testing, DJ. This year, it's kind of great. Like Tyler Warren didn't test, as you mentioned. So that's just going to be a mystery. Guys that you think would test well, for instance, Walter Nolan, who I'm fascinated by.

Because to me, his 20 best plays are probably better than any defensive player in this draft other than Travis Hunter. And so I was hoping he would test and he would pop And it's like that would be a fun guy But he didn't he didn't test either No one like no one's testing and I don't know That's maybe that's just real quick Just real quick if you've been paying attention during the draft process I'm just gonna this is just edge rushers okay

Did not did not run a 40 Abdul Carter Jalen Walker Mike Green Donovan Isaraku Nick Scorton Jack Sawyer Josiah Stewart TJ to a Malau Like oladejo from UCLA I mean like

freaking almost all of them like they just they almost like they got together and did a blood oath of like I'm not running you're not running none of us are running that's just where we are I feel like you should take it personally DJ they're just making your life harder and they're doing it to avoid people like you

and Mina and I guess criticizing them I'm a company guy and I appreciate intrigue at the draft so now we have more intrigue nobody knows anything that's fair let's let's talk finally about the teams with the most draft capital in this 2025 NFL draft. So we thought this would be a fun exercise for our research department to do the teams with

the most draft capital. The Jaguars are number one on the list. And this is using the trade value chart, which, you know, isn't perfect, but there's no perfect one out there. The Jaguars are actually number one on this list. They have 10 picks. The Seahawks, your Seahawks are number two. They had to trade away D.K. Mechaf and Geno Smith to get it, but they are number two with

an extra second and third. The 49ers and Bills to me were really interesting names near the top of this list, extra picks throughout the draft for both of those teams. I'm going to start with the Jaguars because when we interviewed James Gladstone, their GM, during the NFL scouting combine, I mentioned to him that he had 10 picks, and he said, well, for now. And that was his immediate response. So they are a team, I think, could be trading, I assume that they would be trading the

surplus of those picks to move up and get guys that you want like looking at that list Mina who who stands out to you the most as controlling the draft well just like that that that are interesting especially like when I thought about the Jaguarts with that and maybe this is a different question about this this is a draft where teams I think are going to get favorites and maybe it'll be easy and there just going to be a lot of trades moving up and down I mean I think New England is the most fascinating team in this entire draft to me outside of any team. Any team. that could take a quarterback and was going to pass in a quarterback is interesting. Obviously, the top three, but also the Saints are really interesting, too.

We can talk about them too. But the Patriots, I find fascinating because I genuinely believe no one is really sure what you're going to do at four, right, depending on, especially if Hunter and Carter are off the board, whether or not they feel that's too high for one of the guys that they've been linked with or they'd like to trade down. Is that even possible? I think, though, they have all that draft capital. They're such a mandate in this draft to make life easier for Drake May.

And I think they're especially, I compare it on my pod to going to the grocery store hungry. It's like they didn't address their needs on offense. I like the signing, but they go into this, they came into free agency with glaring needs and they came out of it with glaring needs. So that leads me to wonder not just about pick four, but are they going to, to be aggressive to get an offensive tackle or a ride receiver at any point in this draft? Because I hope so, frankly, for Drake May's sake. Yeah, I, gosh, I'd please get a left tackle. And that's the thing. It's like, I know, you know, these tackles have holes in them. And it's like, gosh, I don't know that I love

the value of where they're picking. Ideally, you slide back, get some extra picks and still get your tackle. But if they're stuck, man, they can't run out there with what they ran out there with last year. They just can't. So that is intrigue there with New England. To me, the fascinating one that I think is just a huge draft to San Francisco. Yes.

This team is they are venturing into a new world. They've been living in before contract. And now they're getting to venture into the after contract world. And we've seen it, Mina, you saw it with Seattle. Like there's just that they already saw the damage, the carnage in the off season of who's gone and who left this team. And you can say, okay, well, some of, were beat up and hadn't played as well and yada yada. That's a lot of names that they lost,

a lot of guys. And so that, look, not saying they can't win. They still have their core group of stars. And I do like Brock. And I think Brock's a perfect player for that offense and I have no problem that they're going to pay them. And I think that they should. But it's going to put a lot more pressure on them to be able to hit on draft picks and, and not just top, top of the draft. They're going to have to find some cheap day three starters on this team. sneakly so many needs on this roster right i mean offensive line multiple positions got to start planning for a post george kittle future at tight end he could even take a receiver entire defensive line you could go anywhere there um corner is a glaring one uh yeah it's safety i mean god

dang they could go in any direction here who has to have my who has to have a higher batting average than them i mean like looking around the team they have to have a high batting average in this draft. Miami stands out to me as another one. But you're absolutely right. When you look at San Francisco's roster, it's just the defensive line is decayed so bad. It's not necessarily just worrying about the Brock Purdy contract that's going to come.

It's the contract that didn't work out on the defensive line like Javon Hargrave. That was an injury ultimately. But their defensive tackle group is about as thin as any group in the league. They don't have a second edge. And that's what you think about. They don't have a second linebacker necessarily. They love next to Fred Warner. They have $80.9 million in dead money this year.

The Rams who have a ton to, they have $50 million, should be looking at the 49ers and Seahawks as the two highest teams in dead money this year and think, like, this is go time. We can win this division right now because these other two teams are hurting. And it's crazy because the 49ers, they still have a lot of great players.

And I don't want to discount them because ultimately, if you're power ranking, the best teams over the last five years, like they're probably number two to me behind the chiefs, even though they haven't gotten that Super Bowl title. And yet, this is absolutely a transition year. And John Lynch has to earn that money. And he's done such a great job over the years.

But you do wonder if they had another bad year, like this has been arranged marriage, him and Kyle Shanahan for a long time. Does they stay together forever? He's almost talked about wanting to move on, Mina. He never had to get egg on his face over the trade last trade because things just worked out for them. A lot of what we're talking about, is kind of the consequence of like the lack of trade, you know, draft capital over the last

few years. It's actually, it's weirdly like it's taken a second to hit the roster, but I actually think we are seeing it a little bit in the roster now because they haven't had a lot of picks in the past. And now they have all these holes on their team. So yeah, that's a great pick. By the way, I was thinking about them, DJ, when you were talking about Barron, because, you know, I was thinking about, like, if they take a corner there, Barron, they might like him better, but they might not need him with Diomador-Lonar. So it could be an interesting decision for them in terms of the cornerbacks.

But there's a lot of directions they could go in. I have to think they're praying that one of the tackles falls to 11. Yeah, especially once you write that check that they're going to write and you look at all the hierarchy of needs on that team, protecting the guy you're just getting ready to pay all that money to is pretty high up the list. I don't think the Seattle, Docs GM, John Schneider, has quite as many needs to fill, although there's plenty on

offense, but I think he would be high on that list of GMs who need to have a good draft to me. And he's got those extra picks, so he's got to make them count. It's probably mostly on the offensive side, but it'll be interesting to see what they do. And then I've got to give the bill some credit. Just seeing them on that list, they're a great example of how to stay competitive, and it felt like they were retooling their roster for a while, but they have that extra second. They were patient. That was the Stefan Diggs trade. That's why they have the extra second. They have a bunch of extra late picks

too. And they've been good on hitting some late picks. Just shout out to the bills. I have a lot of faith. They're in a weird spot though because they feel like of any team like who's going to like make the bold move like just go go get the last piece of the puzzle. But it's like this draft. I don't know who that guy is. Like who would they view

as that piece that they would want to use some of this capital and just run up the board and go get. I don't I don't really see who that is. So it's going to be fascinating. One of the most unpredictable drafts, I think, is coming of our lifetime. Very predictable that it was fun having you on. I know DJ is joining you later in the week. Is that true?

He's on NFL Live. And is he joining the Mina Keim show featuring Lenny as well or no? He is. He's doing my final war room mock draft, which I've done three of them thus far. Very fun. It's like we speed around the first round. I give two choices to the guest. I've been doing trades.

I'll see if I do trades. So far, nobody has bit, by the way, on my Cam Ward with one, or I've offered like mega halls for that pick from the Giants. I might have to make it so enticing that I force the issue with DJ. But we'll see. You have to listen to find out. Go check out the Meena Kimes show. Yeah, that should be great.

And yeah, we are only a week away from the NFL draft. Thanks, Mina and DJ. We got one more of these before the big day. That's it for 40s and free. agents. Next time we talk to you, it will be draft week. The NFL is rolling. That's right, and you should be listening

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