NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Bengals-Jaguars MNF Recap, Shaquille Leonard Lands In Philly

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

In a virtual room full of heroes - Dan Hanzus, Gregg Rosenthal, and Marc Sessler break down the Monday Night Football matchup between the Bengals and Jaguars (01:00). The guys then get you caught up on news from around the league including Shaquille Leonard signing with Philadelphia (17:57), the latest chapter in the Jets quarterback drama (22:00), injury updates to Kenny Pickett (32:54), Derek Carr (38:24) and Derrick Henry (43:15) and discuss the latest MVP odds (47:30). Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Good drive now, put together by the Jaguars, 10th play. First down at the 22, quick throw, Ingram, looking for blocks, getting blocks, and his first first touchdown of the year. Third down in about a yard and a half. extra men on the rush this one floated caught by chase and he is gone touchdown Cincinnati as he takes it into the end zone he beat Tyson Campbell and 76 yards later the Bengals have their first lead of the night Evan McPherson who will try to end it from 48 yards away He got it.

He got it indeed. Evan McPherson. Pipes it in overtime for the Bengals, a game that Cincinnati desperately needed. If they had any hopes of staying in the AFC playoff picture, they get it done on the road, knocking off the Jaguars, 34 to 31, a thriller in one of the best primetime games of the year.

Dan Hans is here. with Mark Sessler and Greg Rosenthal. And Mark, you know, this is why you can't judge a book by the cover because we were all talking about, oh, what a bummer this game was going to be. Jake Browning in for Joe Burrow. There should have been Lawrence v. Burrow and a showdown of two AFC elites.

Well, we didn't get Burrow, but we got Jake Browning playing like Joe Burrow, and that allowed us to enjoy a classic. And I guess you have to also mention because you can't get out of a big game this season with a terrible injury. Trevor Lawrence exits this game with what looked like a pretty nasty ankle injury. And as we tape this, we're waiting to find out more.

Yeah, I mean, there were a rash of moving parts to this one. It's like you're so right. I feel like we come out of these huge island games so often this season with a bittersweet feeling because it's like watching what happened to Trevor Lawrence, you know, and we'll wait and see it was just like it changes everything that can happen to the Jaguars. But that's how I felt about the Bengals, even as we were leaving the office today, we were saying, you know, maybe we just, we'll cover the game for 10 or 12 minutes, then we can dive in the news and make the show about something else. We get a classic. And the one thing I remember reading a couple weeks ago about Browning, and I mentioned it on like a Thursday show before he appeared for the first time that they were behind the scenes saying they just felt that he had this like calm and confidence and that they had, they felt that they could run their same offense with him.

And that just sounds like malarkey until you really see it. But what we got tonight, I thought, was just one of the most exciting performances from a backup you could ever imagine. I mean, he's 32 for 37. He completely works with Jemar Chase. The offense was totally functional. He was, I thought he threw with total confidence. And I don't know what will happen with any of these teams, the AFC. You've got four AFC teams right now in the playoff picture at the moment, number seeds one through seven.

that have major quarterback injuries. And the Bengals are kind of hovering around. And if you get this version of a backup quarterback behind Joe, Joe Burrow, I don't know what will happen to them. They have plenty of other talent. It's like this was a kind of a revelation. And I think it kind of just stunned me in real time, Greg, just to watch it unfold.

Yeah, it was just an incredible game. The Lawrence injury changes what we think about Jacksonville. But we'll find out more about how long it is because they're eight and four. They're in good position. They're one game ahead of the Texans. although we'll get to their defense. If their defense, if McManus could have kicked a go-ahead field goal with a, you know, five minutes to go and then their defense holds on to it there, this would have been just such a big win to bank before possibly losing Lawrence.

But we don't know if it's just going to be a couple games or if it's the rest of the season or anything or maybe it won't be anything. Jake Browning, though, changes how we look at this race too and how you look at when you're going to play the Bengals. and the key play, and we heard on the highlight, was that long throw to chase, just because I think of what it showed had already been happening in that game. I mean, he started out 14 for 15 for like 150, but on that play, they send the blitz. And Mike Caldwell, the Jaguars defensive coordinator, loves to send pressure because he doesn't really get natural pressure. They have Josh Allen, and they don't really have anyone else. They don't have Trayvon Walker.

They don't have any push up front. And you figure against Jake Browning, you're going to be able to heat him up. And every time they sent the blitz early, he always knew right where to throw it. Occasionally it was tipped. It didn't work. Sometimes they got the Bengals guy down before first down, but not usually. But on that chase touchdown, he throws a beautiful ball to chase against their best Jaguars corner, Tyson Campbell. It goes for a long touchdown.

Campbell struggled all night. They lose their slot corner, Trey Herndon right away, who's played really well for them. Suddenly, they're struggling with injuries. And it's Jake Browning, who's. who has the wherewithal to be picking on mismatches in the Jaguar's secondary. You're right, Dan. Like, if Burrow had this exact same performance, we would just be talking about what a classic Burrow game.

And instead, it was a classic Jake Browning game right down to the, you know, the figure eight scramble in overtime to set up the game winner. I mean, in crunch time, on the road, in a game with your season on the line, this guy is commonly going through his progressions and connecting with receivers to lead that offense. And, you know, he's Zach Taylor, I know we will butt heads on him occasionally, but you don't get a backup that plays at this level without having a sound operation. We're going to get to the Jets a little later.

That's like the other end of the spectrum. I think this shows you that Taylor really has a strong handle on his offense and they identified a backup quarterback that even though we didn't see him, they saw him. And you heard a lot of great things about Browning and this is all going to come out beyond remember before we saw him play. Oh, he was awesome in high school. Because there was really nothing to go off with him yet. And now we see how he played in this game. We heard that he was spending his day offs in the defensive backs meetings, studying, waiting for his opportunity.

And now he has a chance to become a really interesting story in the AFC. Here's some news from Tom Pellasero, the Pell Razor himself. Jack's quarterback, Trevor Lawrence's initial diagnosis is a spring. ankle with an MRI to follow Tuesday. Okay, so the good news there is that he didn't come out of the x-ray room and they saw, oh, it was a broken ankle, which certainly seemed like it was within the range of outcomes. But we're not in the woods yet because you don't know if he has ligament damage. You look at what just happened with Pickett and Pittsburgh. He needed surgery. So we'll find out how serious this ankle issue is, but at least the ankle didn't snap and we

have an issue like that. So Jaguars fans, at least you at this point, maybe a, avoided a worst case scenario. We'll find out more on that. I really agree with you about Zach Taylor, who's, you know, for, I used to kill him all the time. Greg is not a huge fan. And I think part of, part of what was happening with Zach Taylor during even the Joe Burroughs successful string of time was that, like, the offensive line that were having

issues, you didn't see them adjust. And I thought they did a lot of six man protection tonight to help Browning. The other thing was their run defense had been a complete disaster in recent days. And they couldn't run the ball. And both of those things changed tonight. So I don't know if this is a situation where it's like the Bengals have turned a corner or it happened against, you know, in a special situation tonight. But they played a really good defense.

And to see what they did, like not as a holistic offense, I thought was a big turning point. And, you know, the same way that Matt LaFleur is getting a lot of credit for the past couple of weeks with a young quarterback. Like, this is, this has some fingerprints or some evidence that Zach Taylor does have some ability to grow a quarterback. I mean, just to see where he was from a week ago to now. I just, I don't, there aren't that many things happening like this with quarterbacks. So the development is that quick. Zach Taylor is making me eat some humble pie tonight.

This is, you know, one of the most impressive nights, I think, of his career because of what, what you guys said. Because it shows all the work and the judgment they've been doing for three years. years. You know, we cover the game closely. I have to admit, I did not understand, you know, throughout the season that Jake Browning graduated from Washington, where he racked up all those numbers, and he had 91 touchdowns in high school going up against Maurice Jones Drew School, apparently in one season, including one game against Maurice Jones Drew School, he was saying. That was back in like 2011. He graduated from college in 2018. He's been bouncing around the NFL first as an undrafted free agent for the Vikings for three years and not sticking on roster and the

practice squad and the off season and all that stuff. And then with the Bengals organization for three years. So it actually reminded me a little bit of Sunday night and Jordan Love. Someone that's been in an organization and understands the offense. And he obviously doesn't have the talent that a Jordan Love does or Joe Burrow does. But he does have a style that will work. And I think that style is a little more agro, is a little more throw the ball down the field. And I was really impressed by Zach Taylor going for it on fourth down to start the game. Remember it didn't work. He's at midfield and you go for it with Jake Brown. I was like, hmm, that that's very unlike Zach Taylor. He doesn't do that with Joe Burrow. At the end of the game, he's going for the win when

they only have 35 seconds. Nick Siriani wasn't doing that for Jalen Hertz. And I thought so many times, fourth down at the end of the game when Jamar Chase drops it. And again, Jake Browning is dropping back and he calmly gets it to chase. And you're right, Mark, like everyone lifted up Browning, too. The running game was fantastic. Chase, I think, made a number of great catches on balls that weren't like perfect. It was awesome, but it does start with Browning and it starts with Zach Taylor in the game plan that they put together for him.

32 of 37, Browning was for 354 yards, averaged over nine and a half yards per attempt one touchdown passing one touchdown rushing no turnovers pass a rating one 15 and a half brilliant it's it's it's it's it's a fun a fun scene it did remind me of the mike white game ironically against the bangles uh we're a similar situation where you there's a team that had no hope and then all of a sudden this guy that had no track record is lighting it up and you could tell and i think zach teller spoke about it after the game tonight once you see this this unknown start to ball out the whole confidence of the team rises up and they just kept on going punch for punch with the jacks even when you know it was a great night for taylor overall but you know

he started to get a little cute in spots including that devastating uh tyler boyd pass attempt that looked like a potential turning point where the jaguars would uh take control the game and yet they couldn't because Cincinnati kept fighting back they're kind of a really I think I would think you guys agree because I think we're all on the same page. We were kind of seeing Cincinnati as an afterthought in this AFC playoff race the way things were trending. But now it's going to be really interesting to see like where they stack up starting with next week. They get the Colts, another team that was kind of left for dead. And then all of a sudden they're waving their hands like, no, we have a chance to get to the dance.

A nice little shot of adrenaline for the AFC. Much needed. By the way, I just got a text from Nick Wesleying. Bad night for me, you and all this. the Zach Taylor haters, but it's good to be proven wrong on a night like this because of what you said, it adds so much value, I think, to the Bengals who are in some big games against good teams, a lot of matchups against playoff type teams. It just, it's going to make it more interesting. I think you saw what I've been saying about the defense, especially the past defense, is just

it's not it. That was the thing that was exciting about this game was Trevor Lawrence was playing really well, too. It almost felt like sometimes he was responding to Browning. Every time Browning and the Bengals went down the field, it's like Lawrence. suddenly had a wow, like, uh, rifle shot, uh, to answer him. And it was just back and forth touchdown after touchdown. But you're right. There was that sequence where Trevor Lawrence through his worst pass of the night should have been picked off in the end zone. But Dax Hill kind of just mismanages it, essentially drops it. It goes through his hand. And it turns out to be a Parker Washington touchdown for the Jaguards. That's a seven point swing. And almost like two plays later is

that interception. And you're thinking, okay, finally. the Bengals are going to, you know, just go run away with this game. But, I mean, the Jaguars are going to run away with this game. But their defense wasn't good enough, Mark. And it does concern me because I'm always thinking, like, a good defense is like always a few weeks away from just being like, oh, yeah, they're just average again. And they did get their doors blown off by San Francisco. I know that was San Francisco. That happens to everyone.

But they kind of got their doors blown off tonight, you know, in every facet. Chase Brown, everything was going well for Cincinnati. Yeah, I mean, I think in another world, because even, you know, C.J. Betherd came in and he almost stole this game away. And there's this play that stands out in my mind where it's this incredible deep shot. And Calvin Ridley makes an incredible catch down inside the five. And then that's yanked away by a holding call. Because if that had stood, we're talking about a completely different end of this situation. And they, and I think you would have been right. To steal this game if you were Jacksonville would have been immense. We'll see what happens with Lawrence. But it, I love. I love. I like a game like this because it kind of changes where we are with this AFC playoff race, which is a little suspect to me if you look at the bottom couple of teams in here. All right. Here's Doug Peterson when asked about the status of his star quarterback. I don't have any information yet on Trevor.

We're still evaluating him, you know, so he'll have more, you know, tests and things done here tonight and tomorrow. So I'll probably have a better update for you tomorrow on that. But, I mean, yeah, we had. position players go down, you know, but look, that's part of the game, you know, and it happens and it's unfortunate, but, you know, next guy up has to, has to be ready to go and play. And, you know, I thought the guys, the guys that filled in, you know, were, we're just that. They were ready to go. Listen, Carson, Doug, Doug Peterson's been through the war. Once upon a time, Carson Wentz blew out his ACL for an Eagles team,

blowing through the regular season and everyone thought the season was over and then they won the Super Bowl with Nick Foles. So he's hoping they could just weather the storm here but it was a really bad night to lose at home and I know Browning now we look at him differently but going into this game you got a Bengals team limping without Joe Burrow coming into your house in primetime

and to lose that game and to lose Trevor Lawrence and to lose Christian Kirk who went out with a groin injury and really to lose to me, like your real chance to somehow, if they would have won out, which was unlikely, they are the number one seed and they're still in the mix for that. But you kind of, I think you're going to remember this is the night. They let that slip away as well. So they have a lot to recover from, obviously.

They play the Browns next week and the Ravens the week after that. So that Ravens game especially was going to be really important for them, not only to get the one seed, but to try to cement the division. you know, they don't have, they don't necessarily have the tiebreaker over Houston. That's going to, that's to be determined. And so they split the season series. They're one up. Cleveland gets a little bit of a break here, assuming they don't see Lawrence next week.

C.J. Bethard's a little different as a backup, just because we've seen him play in the NFL before. We've seen him play for the Jaguars before, not extensively, because Lawrence has been durable. But Bethard was out there looking like he thought he was Michael Vic. And he's not the worst backup in the league, but he probably has a lower. I think it's fair to say he's established. He just has a lower ceiling of like what his potential outcomes are. And their defense and their run game can't play like this around C.J. Bethard, you know, that Brown's game is going to be a toss up at best.

And they'll be heavy underdogs if they don't have Lawrence back for the Ravens. And then the schedule eases up down the stretch if they can get Lawrence back for the playoffs. I think the thing that you mentioned about the like the Browns getting a break. because of potentially with the Trevor Lund. I feel like half the AFC and half the NFL are getting breaks week to week. And everyone that plays the Browns obviously is getting huge breaks. So it's a fair, that's a good point. There are, I think, next week, five tilts that include like a backup versus a backup.

So it's like we're in that part of the chaotic end of the season. Yeah, I think we're getting to the point where it's mathematically impossible to just have two games with starting quarterbacks that were there in week one, which which is a bummer. And it is, you know, we could, we're going to stay. positive tonight because it was a great game and fun to watch. But this is a plot line of this season that's going to kind of marred when you look back at it. This is the year. I mean, it started obviously with the Rogers injury and how dramatic that was on Monday night. And it just feels like every week there's something new. I mean, look at the Bengals a couple weeks ago. We're watching that game and they have that dramatic shot of him on the sideline trying to throw and

then kind of dropping down to his knee. Too much of that. Too much. The game is just not the same without good quarterback. So even more reason to say Jake Browning, thank you. We needed that. We needed that. All right. Let's take a break. And then we'll get to the news. All right. Welcome back to around the NFL. Monday night football. Out of the way. Week 13 out of the way. How about that? Week 14 right around the corner. Let's get caught up on the news. starting with Shaq Leonard. It's finally done. He has made his decision.

And it will be the Philadelphia Eagles who he suits up for Leonard, the former All-Pro released in a surprise move by the Colts last week. He will join a Philly team, Greg, that certainly can use a lift in the middle of their defense. They've been getting carved up. We just saw it on with San Francisco. I guess my one take from this, Greg, is he's a big name brand. but as Wes was known to say that the the game no longer matches the name. So unless he, you know, a change in scenery allows him to recapture a spark.

I'm not sure how much this move makes the Eagles better, but I guess it's worth the roll of the dice. Right. So he was not playing a ton on passing downs for the Colts. But he was playing a lot. He was playing 30, 40 snaps a game. It wasn't like he was benched. I can't say he was making a ton of splash play. or that he stood out good or bad, to me, PFF had him graded fairly well,

just like as a solid starting linebacker. And if he's that and they have a good way of really bringing out the best in veterans, I think he'll help them. But the way I've heard Eagles fans talk about it, it's like they think they're getting three-time all pro Shack Leonard and that he's going to save them at that position. And that seems unrealistic to me. And it also seems to be missing the point, which is that they have a lot of issues in that secondary.

It's not just the linebackers. Like Darius Slay, James Bradbury, everyone's giving up way too much and is not the same as they were a year ago. And their front hasn't been as special as they needed to be. And so, like, what's Shaq Leonard really going to do? Like, he should be a little bit of an upgrade from Nick Murrow. But I think in the local markets in Philly and Dallas, this was treated like it was like a huge sweepstakes. it probably isn't going to change that much. I think it's a little bit baked into the fact that there's, you know,

photos being released all over the place of Big Dom, you know, taking a tour around with Shaq Leonard and being part of the process to, like, recruit him there. That was like, what, was just show, oh,

was this before? No, Big Dom was like, you know, as a security guy, like, was the guy that kind of brought Shaq down out. But I do, I would say this.

Why not take a shot? And like, it really only matters how you perform if you're the Eagles against like the Cowboys and the Niners when it, when we really get there. And like Nicoby Dean banged up, you know, Zach Cunningham banged up. Like, we just saw they give up, you know, 456 yards. So if it clicks, it clicks.

And it's kind of like the Eagles are like the NFC version for me of like the Ravens where like they go get this player that someone else wanted to trade or move on from. And it works. So it's like I, why not try? Why not try? It's hard to get a good player this time of year. Right. They've done it.

And the thing that's really interesting, and I'll leave it at that is that there were no financial repercussions here. It's a very rare chance where a player is actually just choosing which team do I want to go to for whatever reason, like to win, which team gives me a better chance to win, to play, whatever, because the Colts are paying his contract either way. It's all guaranteed. They're the ones paying. And it's pretty interesting. He's choosing between the Eagles and the Cowboys. I figured he'd choose the Cowboys just because that seems like a more fun place to go live or whatever.

And he picks the Eagles and they play the Cowboys this week. That's kind of juicy. spicy. I'm trying to find the article, but the whole Big Dom story really took a almost erotic turn when a former, I believe, offensive linemen for the Eagles, a member of the Super Bowl team, and I apologize for not having his name off the top of my head, was quoted as saying that he would give his life for Big Dom. It's like, all right. What's going on there? It's a blood oath. Once you're in with Big Dom, like, you're in. for life. You're either in or you're out or you're really in. All right. Let's talk about the biggest joke in the NFL, my favorite team, the New York Jets. This report from the athletic was one of the big stories in the NFL on Monday. It came from Zach Rosenblatt and Diana Rossini and then Jeff Howe chipping in as well with the athletic that the jets are prepared to make another switch at quarterback. After, you know, Rogers blows his Achilles, Zach Wilson takes back over the starter.

He's bad. They bench him. They bring in Tim Boyle. He sucks. They bench him. They bring in Trevor Simeon. He sucks. And now the idea is what about going back to Wilson. And then the report that Wilson was reluctant to take back the job. And the team wants to turn back to Wilson, but he is hesitant to step back into the role. Multiple team sources said Monday. day. Here's another, you know, a graph from that report. Aaron Rogers had reached out to Wilson in an effort to advise him to resume the starter role, but at the time, Wilson remained apprehensive due to perceived injury risk per team sources. Okay. And then Robert Sala, and there is not a more emasculated coach in the NFL in recent memory than Sala. Every week, he is answering questions

and being asked to explain things that he has no control over. And now it's, come to the point where even the bust quarterback, he doesn't even control him and the ability to make him play quarterback for his team, or so it seems. That's not the way Salo's painting it in his press conference. Well, let's be clear. If he was reluctant to play guys, he wouldn't be here. All right. I actually, coincidentally, just got done speaking with him.

He came in about a half hour ago and we had a really good conversation. The young man wants the ball. He wants to start. He believes he's the ball. best quarterback in the room and best quarterback for this team and the best and the guy who gives us the best chance to win. And I'll tell you guys the same thing I told him. I appreciate it.

I appreciate the fact that he wants to play. I'm just not there yet. It's just not there yet. And it's just that is even absurd. Like so he's trying to couch that as how you've even made a decision yet. But if I do make a decision, Zach has now told me he wants to play. Boys, what this sounds like to me and tell me if, if you think it's something else. is the Jets who have been completely misguided

about their quarterback room since Rogers went down. They finally get sick of Wilson's struggles. They bench him for the second or third time since he was the number two overall pick. And they say to him a couple weeks ago, hey, we're really sorry. This is not going to work out. We're going to go in a different direction.

Not only we're going to demote you, we're going to essentially deactivate you. And then after the season's over, we'll find a way to kind of part ways and best of luck to you. And because the Jets are such a poorly run organization, they misunderstand how bad these other quarterbacks in their building are. And so when those guys are making them completely non-competitive,

they go back to Zach and say, Zach, we need you again. And Zach Wilson's saying, bruh, like, you are not bringing me back next year. I am sick of being your whipping boy. I'm not safe playing in front of that offensive line. and I'm trying to restart my career next year and I know you don't like me.

So why should I play from you for you? I've thought about this a lot, boys. I think Zach Wilson is an anti-hero. I think Zach Wilson is telling the Jets, you are incompetent so you could take this quote-unquote job and shove it. And as much as, and I know my dad is totally on the other side of this and thinks it's a disgrace that he would ever do that.

But I have to say, I understand where Wilson is coming from, if indeed that is what the backstory is here. I think that's a great positing of the situation. I don't know if he had any promises that, like, you're done for the season or anything like that. That doesn't make sense to me. I'm somewhere in the middle that I understand that viewpoint of him kind of sticking it to them. And I just think it's career suicide to really not want to play. You're not playing for the organization.

you're playing for your teammates. That's what they always say. And ultimately, in a situation like this, you're playing for your career, like to put something on tape to try to continue, to get it going, to get a positive grade, to show something, and you're playing for your teammates. You feel like you owe it to them. And when I saw these reports, I just thought, I never heard of something like this. This is some ridiculousness. And I was just thinking, and we can get into it. I want you to go, Mark, but like, I just.

was like, what is the motivation of this even getting out there? Is someone trying to paint him poorly? You know, Diana reported that it was coming from many parts of the organization, that they had heard this, like players, coaches, staff had all heard this. And then after she reports that, Jeff Howe has this report, which just took my breath away. Quote, if Zach Wilson were asked directly by the Jets to start, he would agree to that, a source familiar with Wilson's thinking, What are we doing here? I honestly don't even have a take. My take is what is happening?

That is the wildest thing I've ever heard as a report. I don't even know what that is. It's insane. I've been reduced to the same place where like when we say they want him to start or they told him X, Y, or Z, it's hard. And this is not, you know, this is true of the Jets, too many seasons and it's true of bad teams. Like, who is even they at this point?

Because the coach seems to be almost outside the bubble of decision making. and explaining things that he doesn't have full accountability for on some level. And that creates a sense of confusion. If you are a Zach Wilson, it's been an absolute disastrous experience to go out on the field. Because I think part of it is like he doesn't really have the support of his teammates. I mean, there's evidence that a lot of his offensive teammates feel like if you're Garrett Wilson, like my career is falling apart because of this quarterback situation in New York.

The team's falling apart. The defense is on fire about the whole thing. And so it's like not an enjoyable thing. You got to play, though, or else you kind of got to get out of the building. I would say one thing, his resume, like on tape is a mess. But I think because you have a first round pedigree, another team would say we can fix what the Jets couldn't fix because that makes some sense. But if you're saying basically my desire to go out and be a teammate and play potentially doesn't exist, then it's like, cool, we don't need your ability isn't there. It's not like you're a special talent.

You're not Jeff George and you're difficult. you're just Zach Wilson, you're not good and you don't really want to play. It's like you are sabotaging and it seems almost immature if that's really what he's saying. That said, I'm not sure I even believe any of that. I don't even know where it's coming from or why and why anyone would be trying to bury him. The first report is too, and it was not really dismissed by Salah exactly. I mean, he spoke to him, but he didn't exactly dismiss the initial report. It's too widely spread and too many different things happening for me to doubt that that,

That part is actually, I bet that is true that people, that he was just saying that, that people are saying that. But like, for them not to understand that that getting out was totally burying him or unless it was someone that was intentionally trying to bury him. But it doesn't make sense for anyone to try to intentionally bury him because it just, it's just all bad. It made me think, Dan, and maybe this was overreacting. This was the first time I thought, oh, Salah's got to go, because this is just embarrassing. And you can say this is not Salah's fault for whatever reason, but it's just like, it's all embarrassing. scene. And I've, I've asked around a little bit. And I think there's pushback. I think the conventional wisdom is that Salas stays, but I have my doubts, especially if it keeps going

with this. And if he stays, it's because it's a dysfunctional organization that doesn't see that this is too far gone, that he is not the right leader for this team, that Aaron Rogers is the one now running the ship. I mean, it is, it is, everything is played out in an only the Jets fashion. In the worst case scenario, it's embarrassing as a Jets fan. I feel like I really I'm kind of on the ropes right now, where I know I can't, I can't disconnect from the Jets and not be a Jets fan, but I'm getting to the point where like apathy is going to start creeping in, I feel like, because I'm just so disgusted talking about them year after year after year as being a joke, the joke of the league. And that's why the, why the comment I said about

Wilson being kind of an anti-hero, there's something cathartic about Wilson, whether this was his intention or not. Finally, someone is really holding the team accountable and saying you're a joke. Like ownership, general manager, head coach, offensive court. You guys are a joke. If you think that I'm going to now come try to bail you out after you humiliated me and put me on the bench and deactivated me and told me that it was worse than Tim Boyle, who threw one touchdown and 13 interceptions for Yukon and Trevor Simeon, these are guys that shouldn't even be in the league. you're a joke and everyone's laughing at the Jets and I'm saying it now every show they come up

it's what the Joker said to De Niro you get what you fucking deserve and that's what's happened to the Jets they botched this from week one on and now they're suffering the consequences and no one feels bad for them because they never saw it coming because they were so filled with confidence

and smelling their own you know what that they never realized they were this vulnerable even though everyone else could see it so how can I as a Jets fan want that head coach back or that general manager back or hell even the quarterback who's done nothing nothing. Aaron Rogers has done nothing for my team other than end up indirectly you could say cause more embarrassment and more pain and more misery. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of it. It's one day they're going to do it. They're going to push me too far. It's getting close again. You know, you could have

Danny's not happy. You don't have to have an unconscious or what is it, conscious uncoupling. But you could like take a break, you know, just be like, I'll see you in six weeks. Just like, you know, you disconnect as much as you can. Come back to me. What do I do for a living, Greg?

No, well, that's a great point. Yeah, there's no getting away from them. All right, let's just move on before my head explodes. The Steelers will be without Kenny Pickett for a while, but hopefully they'll get him back. had ankle surgery, the Steelers quarterback on Monday. He was on the injury report, by the way, because of an ankle injury last week. So he aggravated it against Arizona. There's no long-term timetable for how long he's going to be out, according to Mike Tomlin. They ruled them out.

Obviously, Thursday's game against the Patriots and get ready, everybody. Mark, you and I are going to have a fun with that one. Mitch Trubisky will start on Thursday. It's a high ankle sprain. I mean, I feel like with the point where there's, there are maybe some larger concerns about Pickett's durability, because it's been a, you know, sort of an array of up and down health issues, concussions, this, that. And Tribisky, I don't really see as vastly different than Kenny Pickett. Greg, I think you're higher on Trubisky than I am. It's another AFC playoff team. We've been talking about this for 20 years. Well, the Trubisky. It feels like he's been in the for over 100 years. I've always been very down, but I kind of liked him for a few moments

in Pittsburgh last year. I've liked them less in Pittsburgh this year the few times. I just think their floor is, like, so that, you know, that offensive explosion where they scored 16 points and put up 400 plus yards, like, you know, quintessential, quinnocential Mirage. I mean, I just think this team is a, I said they're going to win 12 games, but they're lucky to have as many wins as they do right now. And we'll see what happens with Pickett. Thursday night, Dan, I mean, I might need you to, like, drop a bomb on my apartment. I mean, I'm not sure I can do it. I'm going to try.

Vegas has the over under at, I believe, 30 and a half now, which is the lowest over and under in the NFL in years. Yeah, I think it's since 2005 and it's going down. I saw that 95 percent, I think it was our researcher, Kate Magsurek, I believe, said 95 percent of that money is going on under so it might keep sinking and sinking until it goes through the floor we should you know what we're going to do listeners i know you're going to think to yourself if there's one episode to skip of around the NFL it's going to be the thursday night football episode mark and i are going to cook up a secondary segment so explosive that'll be the one everyone's talking about people will be talking about our seg more than they'll be talking about that game well i appreciate that because i think you're doing

you know, you're doing us a service as well, because I, you know, I just sat through 6-0 Patriots Chargers, you know, a day ago. So it's like how many, you know, swings with the base and all back to the head and they're being. I've seen some reporting that it was the tightrope procedure. By the way, I think Trubisky adds the floor. I might, I might go over here, you know, just Trubisky is going to throw some pick six. He is the James Winston to Kenny Pickett It's Derrick Carr, where it's probably, in the end, not going to be any more effective, but it'll just be more chaotic and more points. I saw it reported somewhere that it's the tightrope procedure on Kenny Pickett.

They did not put him on IR, and that's a high ankle sprain, and that's maybe two to three weeks you're out, which is just interesting to think about in context of Trevor Lawrence. We don't know what's going to happen, but Cameron Wolfe, just a little update as we're going, our reporter NFL Network is in the locker room there and said he was talking to teammates, Trevor Lawrence was, and they seemed like a little happy after. I mean, he's just reading the tea leaves here. He was on crutches and ended up walking out with a walking boot, putting a little bit of pressure on it, but not much, really, as he left.

But they said that the teammates weren't in terrible spirits, and then he was taken out of the locker room on a cart. So they do have a cart, Dan. Oh, finally. In Jacksonville. They found the cart. I mean, that was so painful. What are we doing?

It's one thing where you're limping off the field and disappearing. When they cut ESPN cuts to inside the bowels of that stadium and he's moving about six inches every 30 seconds, it's like, guys, Shad, do we have something to take the franchise somewhere? And also, like, so he's six, six. He's obviously like a massively framed quarterback. Like, even the guys, you know, under each one of his shoulders were big dudes, too. But it's like they were not big enough to actually do the job. And they're just like tugging his body down this hallway. It's like technology.

You know what would work? How many golf carts are in Jacksonville? Like a 2,000 pound golf card with eight wheels and a flat back. That would be perfect for a 6.5, 230 built out of stone quarterback, dealing with a nasty lower leg injury. You know what? We kind of lost in the shuffle there. and ESPN did too, was that Walker Little, who you really feel for, he stepped on Lawrence.

And this is why I've seen some people being like, quarterback's got to learn how to protect themselves. It's like his left tackle stepped on him during the dropback. Well, what do you want? I mean, it was just a fluky play. It's going to happen. And then he fell over it weirdly. Walker Little heard himself on that play.

Walker Little is their starting left tackle because they just lost their starting left tackle Kim Robinson for the season. So that was like a completely catastrophic play. on a night. They also lost Kirk and Trey Herndon and in Foley, Fatu Kasi. So it was just like a crazy, terrible night for the Jaguars. All right. In other news, uh, you know what's going on in New Orleans right now. Everyone's an expert. Everybody knows how to fix the saints and what's wrong with the saints and everything, everybody thinks it's amazing that there's all this talk going on and all this mocking of people. And isn't it cool that Michael Thomas is sending tweets during the game? I can't,

I don't know why I'm being so nasty. Let the fans be mad like you're mad. They're just mad. No, but it's Michael Thomas. It's not the fans. I understand their frustration. Michael Thomas is the one who's tweeting, you know, who was once a, and a tremendous player.

And now it's kind of just a guy and he's once again injured. He's sending cryptic tweets during the game. Y'all said I was throwing shade. Not at all my, not at all my eyes just work. Check yours. Okay, all that kind of stuff. and obviously taking shots at Carr after a turnover and the team in general and the coaching staff.

Dennis Allen was forced to address this on the same day he explained that Derek Carr was going to be missing some time. Yeah, we'll keep that in-house. But, you know, I guess I was made aware of that last night. So he deleted or took down his Twitter account. Was there, can someone tell him that he had to take the tweets down? I'm not aware of that.

Derek Carr is in the concussion protocol once again, but he's got all sorts of other injuries coming out of that game. So it feels like we're going to get a Jamis Winston, um, Tayson Hill Jam, uh, this week. Yeah,

Thomas liked a post that, and this was last week, actually, people were noticing that, like the post, that joke that Carr gave Thomas a hospital pass, uh, to openly critique him and stir,

stir up drama. And he had been like liking some anti-car. this is what I'm talking about and then he was watching the game and he was saying you know I'm just using my eyes he was just noticing like on the interception for instance that there are wide open receivers on the other side of the field so he's like openly being and and I guess he wants to get out of town probably he'll be gone and I think they might both be gone but there's nothing like I don't know maybe there are people that disagree I don't think there's anything cool or edgy or whatever about this it's just I think you're being a bad teammate and you're

using social media to kind of cause more issues. I think he's kind of a joke personally. 30 years old, grow up. He's been a distraction. He's been absent. He's not been the player he was. And it's like how many examples of total chaos do we need inside the Saints organization? Like when you talk about like, you know, Michael Thomas being away from the team, I think your average Saints fan wants Dennis Allen away from the team. And I kind of feel like no matter what happens to them on this journey this season, which has been unpleasant to the eyes. Like, it's going to be a massive off season of change. And if it's not, what are they doing? I've landed on it, Greg. I think now I understand why I started this conversation the way I did. I and I've talked

about it a lot with Derek Carr that he has been bad this year and he's not worth the money and it was a bad signing and he's been a problem. But I've seen a lot of, you know, and what you've talked about it a lot like Saints fans are very angry and frustrated. And these Michael Thomas story has been popping up the last couple weeks. And it's almost like he's being celebrated on some level for calling out this situation. And it's like that's part of the problem too. Like I feel like the Saints have just a lot of issues internally. And so maybe that is not something to celebrate. But I understand, I truly understand where Saints fans are coming from that this has been a very rough season. And they have not lived up to expectations. Right. Michael Thomas is kind of speaking

for them. The most interesting one, that he liked last week. I'm trying to find it was about, it was from like a motivational speaker that was like weak leaders avoid difficult conversations. And the longer you delay, the heart of the conversation gets, blah, blah, blah, blah. And people thought, people basically took that. And I think that's been a criticism of Dennis Allen, that he doesn't know how to manage people. There's been a lot of stories going, you know, like that he just, he's almost afraid to

confront his own players. and I don't, I think he's lost that locker room. So separating the quarterback from this, it just, it feels like a team that is just a drift right now. But Greg, it started with like Chauncey Garner, John. Like, I think it had Sean Payton been there, you wouldn't have lost that player. Right. Yeah, that was, that was the very beginning of it. Yeah.

I would say one thing to Michael Thomas. Like, I don't know if you're, if you're going, diving into difficult conversations when you're liking other people's posts and tweeting, sub-tweeting your own quarterback. That's not having a one-on-one conversation. Injury news. Derek Henry is not in the concussion protocol and is on track to play in week 14's matchup against the dolphins. He had two touchdowns in over 100 yards in yesterday's brutal loss to the cults before. Double header next Monday night, guys. We got little Titans dolphins is one of them.

Nice. By the way, the Titans fired their special teams coach after miscues, including that block punt that swung that game. Jeffrey Simmons of the Titans will miss a couple of weeks with a knee injury as well, according to Mike Vrable. So that is a big loss for the Titans. And anything to add there, boys? No, other than that, that block punt, unfortunately ended Ryan Stonehouse's season. Ryan Stonehouse, their punter, I would have guessed was a shoeing maybe for all pro first team. It may still make it.

But punters, you know, the kickers get a lot of love on this show. Stonehouse was out of run that rivals any punter that any punters had probably in the last handful of years. So that is a, that is a shame. What a devastating play. I know. So you lose one of your top players, your punter. You, you lose, you know, seven points on the board and, you know, swings a game that you

absolutely needed. And then it gets people fired as well. There are very few plays this season that have been that devastating for one team. Uh, yes, it's almost impressive, but really tragic in a way, uh, circling back to what we were honking about last night with less than a minute to go in Sunday night football. Patrick Wilhomes fired a deep ball to Marcus Valde, Valde Scantling. He was absolutely tackled almost by Carrington Valentine. Um, they do not throw the flag instead of first and goal from about the five yard line. The chiefs are left to scramble and they never do get close after that. final score 2719 you heard the rules guy who's the rules guy for NBC again macaulay macaulay he he was very frank and said that's this is not this is not good this should have been a penalty uh guess what that night uh they they trot out brad allen the referee and he explains after the game uh that you know what it wasn't we didn't get this one wrong here's the quote as you

may know on every play where there may or may not be pass interference either offensive or defensive the covering official has to rule whether contact materially restricts the receiver and in this case the covering officials were in good position and ruled that there was no material restriction that rose to the level of defensive pass interference uh the ball appeared to be catchable for mvS allen did not dispute that i am not aware that catchability was involved the covering official simply did not feel that there was the level of contact that rose to a material restriction

for defensive pass interference. I mean, I don't know what to say to that. That's brutal. Either way, it does nothing for the chiefs mark, but it's like at least say you got the call long so we could all just move forward as a society. Yeah, that would be more pleasant. I guess my thing is you can go read these NFL rule books

when you go read some of these paragraphs. It's like, I'm sorry, what's happening? but like our eyes, the broadcaster's eyes, our eyes, Terry McCauley's, everyone is looking at this play and saying, this doesn't check out. So whatever the written rule is, like, maybe we need to examine that. I guess you can say whatever you want, but there's never accountability for these officiating crews when they blow something. He sounded like a politician. If you listen closely, you read it closely, they never said that the call was right. All he did was just explain in great detail that the guy was in position. Here's the

the rule and he thought he was making the right call like he actually like he it was one of those politician like non-denial denials where it just said a lot of words and he's like well this is what he ruled he looked at it he was in good position and this is what he ruled because this is what he thought but he missed the point of like yes that's all true we we know he thought he was right but he was wrong that's what we want to hear weird annoying sucks all right finally in the news this is funny and Greg you're way more plugged into this world than Mark or I, so you can perhaps tell us why these things can change so quickly, but I guess it makes sense.

So we've been talking about the last few weeks, Brock Purdy, who's having really an excellent season for the Niners, who I think we're all in agreement are the best team in football. And why is he being overlooked in the MVP race when you look at the odds at the sports books? And, you know, he was kind of in the distant background a couple of weeks ago when we first start talking about this. Well, after Purdy through four touchdowns and the Niners blew out the Eagles, that quickly changed to the point now that Purdy is the odds on favorite to win Super Bowl MVP in the latest odds. The Niners are also the favorite to win the Super Bowl. Pertie through for 314 and 4. There are the odds right there. If you're watching on YouTube, Purdy's a plus

300, DAC right behind them at plus 350. I think that checks out. And then it's a little bit of a drop off after that plus 900 for Lamar plus 1,600 for Tyreek Hill. There you go. Hertz is at plus 350. And Josh Allen plus 3500. Hertz at plus 352 at plus 700. Oh, sorry. I was reading it wrong.

My back. Yeah, it's confusing how it was set up just with the two things. Ah, these things change fast though because they're just a reflection of what Vegas thinks people like us think, which is very. nebulous, as you would like to say, especially with like eight weeks left in the season. You know, they're just trying to like, what is the average Joe thinking, essentially? And the average Joe wasn't thinking Purdy until now. It's still, you know, the field, you know, plus 300 isn't that much of a favorite.

It would still say it's way, way, way more likely that Purdy doesn't win than he doesn't, but he has the closest odds. The DAC thing is more interesting to me because I think he was plus 3,000, like three weeks ago. And now he's like kind of a co-favorant with. Purdy and hurts. I still like Tyreek. I still think actually has a much better chance than those odds indicate. We may be closer to a season where like a Tyreek Hill or someone like that or a Christian McCaffrey can rise up and not be a quarterback and win this. But like I know we're all like of this world that like quarterback wins. We just ignore them. It's almost better if you win three games,

but you're a pristine like player. But honestly like Brock Purdy, I think it matters to voters and like generalists that Brock Purdy blew out the Cowboys in the game that Dak didn't play well. And he blew out the Eagles in a game that Jalen Hertz played all right in, but it wasn't like Jalen Hertz won. And now Dak and Jailen Hertz go play each other next week. And if one of those really suffers in that game, I just, you're starting to see like, where's the terrible Brock Purdy game against a giant killer that we see recently? Like he's surging and other guys are starting to knock each other off. I don't, I think that affects voting. Like, I think the last five weeks. I stand by that like the last five weeks ultimately decided. Now you got to kind of be in this top eight probably to start. But the last five weeks will be huge. And if it's on QB wins, which it shouldn't be. And yet that will be a huge factor. All these guys are all about the same in terms of their team. So how their teams finish obviously is a huge factor. And I'll say it again just because it keeps on coming up. But and this isn't coming at you at all, Greg. But.

you know still people have to vote and are we really going to on NFL honors night going to call up Tyree kill who is someone that has just violence in his past and has hurt people uh you know if deshawn watson was having a monster year this year would we be okay giving him the MVP where where's the line like where's the separation with these guys and what they've done in their personal life and when did we decide that they're worthy for the discussion of these onfield awards and when they should be disqualified or even be vilified as people with no redeeming qualities like where is that line i'm a little confused no redeeming qualities is a pretty strong statement about any person but i guess i would say we've let him first of all he's back into the

league for five six years he's won multiple postseason awards from the exact same 50 voters that are voting on this so the awards i think say you're not supposed to take that into account could that come into account ultimately on a big award like MVP. That's the biggest. That's a fair point to make. I don't, I don't tend to think that's getting priced into those numbers or into voter's thoughts, again, but I could be wrong. It's a fair point.

I would say, though, the exact same 50 people are voting in first team all pro year after year, which you can say isn't as big a deal. It isn't, but it's a big honor. It makes a big difference to them. And they've been voting for that sort of thing. And for people that don't know, he had a, ugly domestic violence arrest in college and a there was a child abuse investigation while he was with the chiefs that was a huge story at the time so it is a spotty record to say the least

around hill but you know what if he if he goes for 2,000 yards and carries that offense to historic places yeah from the pure statistical breakdown he's in that conversation it's just you know um anything else it's about it all right i'll save my tyrie kill case you're right It is a little awkward for later, but I got some good numbers from later, you know. Oh, good. Okay. Well, that's nice. Uh, let's see.

That is, that's our busy, busy Sunday, Monday, uh, Tuesday. We're going to watch some games. We charge our batteries and get ready, uh, for our Wednesday program, then a Thursday program and then another Thursday program, you know, the wheel it keeps spinning. Thank you to everybody for your support. Uh, we could not do it without you. And I'm still seeing all those in our mentions, all those people that have been listening to around the NFL and the podcast.

It's a big part of their experience, whether they're in their cars or at home or maybe there's an earpiece in when they're the wife or the husband's talking and you could just shut out the world. Those kids to be quiet. Someone at 84,000? Was that like a real thing? How is that even possible? It's incredible.

It's incredible. So thank you to everybody. The fact that we still have you guys with us 11 years in. We're very lucky. Why don't hundreds of people have 84,000 minutes? that's my question because do the math it's like four hours a day how is that we we don't even make close to that amount of content so it's just well someone someone someone showed that it's possible so you know lead you know follow that individual's glory i like that mark as as uh the great

philosopher paul houston once said ambition bites the nails of success you just got to keep pushing keep pushing keep pushing all right till next time thank you everybody heed the call This is an I-Heart podcast.