NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Bunkercast XXVI: Bob McGinn

Episode Date: April 20, 2020

A bunker filled with heroes - Dan Hanzuz, Marc Sessler, Chris Wesseling and Gregg Rosenthal bring you all of the latest news around the NFL including a Jaguars beef and what player in the NFL could be compared to Michael Jordan. Bob McGinn joins the show to talk about his draft board and also Aaron Rodgers.Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comNFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. Today's episode of the Around the NFL podcast is presented by Rocket Mortgage. Join Rocket Mortgage and saying thank you to essential workers by posting a video to everyone knows a hero.com. Also, the Around the NFL Twitter show is back. This week, it's on Tuesday. Tomorrow, it's live. It's all about the draft, and it's going to be a lot of fun breaking down the big event coming up on Thursday through Saturday. So check us out live on Twitter, 2 p.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. Eastern, 10 p.m. GMT. So a little bit later than our usual time, make sure you check it out. Let us get to the Monday show. billion dollar idea welcome to another edition of the around the NFL podcast my name is

dan hansis i'm coming to you from a city filled with heroes in bunkers mark sessler chris wesley greg rosenthal what is up gentlemen hey dan it's a gentleman instead of boys then finally classy classy sophisticated um how is everybody how was your weekend I like the weekends. It is quite a difference. I mean, with the schools and the shows, like, it's a relief to get to the weekend. Yeah, I find myself drifting away on the weekends. I kind of need this daily exercise that we do to keep us or keep me somewhat sane.

I enjoyed the weekend quite a bit. I was talking to Erica before the show that I've started to look back over the past couple months of like the things that I had a chance to do that I didn't do because I thought, well, you know, we'll always be able to do this. And it was, I remind, I thought about the night that Dan and I, we almost went to France and to Paris from a late night, UK bar, but we thought, oh, it's too audacious an idea. We'll do it another time. It's like, I wish we had done that now. I'm just looking back saying, like, that may never happen again. And you know, with the way things are working out now, with the world turned upside down

and then the uncertain nature of the NFL season. I'm very worried that we won't get to go to London this year and who knows? All of a sudden now you're talking two years down the line the world is filled with unknowns. I guess what is the lesson here? Grab life by the... Carpe die.

And the lesson is Dan is now into other countries other than our own, which I like. That's good. It's a trope being perpetuated by you guys, but I do that stuff with you all the time. I didn't really come that close to going to France either. That was more a Cessler fever dream that maybe I could have gotten roped into. And now, in retrospect, yes, that would have been great because who knows.

We got a nice show coming up today. Did everybody watch the last dance? Definitely. I have yet to do that. But I feel highly on top of the situation thanks to 47,000 sports writers tweeting about it at the exact same time. Mark will never watch it. No, I will watch it. I will watch it and catch up and we'll watch it, but I haven't yet.

Wes, I thought of you while I was watching it because you spoke very eloquently on the matter on our Twitter show on Friday. And Michael Wilbon, who's a guy I think we all respect at one point. He was one of the talking heads. And if you don't know, the last dance, it's a 10-part ESPN documentary about Michael Jordan, focusing on the last season with the Bulls, but really on his whole career in life. And Wilbon said there's only really three guys in the history of American sport that could, you know, you could do a documentary like this that have this, the layers that Jordan has. It's Babe Ruth. It's Muhammad Ali. And it's Michael Jordan. Did get me thinking that football is, you know, the most popular sport in America. It's been around forever now. It's kind of interesting that there's never been that type of a guy that went next level and became the fascination that. those three personalities are yeah i thought it was interesting too i had a couple of thoughts on that

one that it's interesting that those three guys all came from different sports and they all came from probably the time when those sports were at their peak in popularity um babe ruth in 20s with baseball mohammed ali in the 60s with boxing and then michael jordan in the 90s with basketball maybe football has yet to reach its peak in popularity and we'll have that athlete who lifts the whole game up and sort of becomes that icon. That's kind of a scary thought that football has not peaked in popularity. How much bigger can it get, really? Well, the way Greg's talking, Patrick Mahomes could be that guy.

He's got to, I mean, I don't know. Ten-part documentary, Greg? I don't know. I don't know what you would have to do to transcend this sport in, like, the world at this point now that the NFL is so saturated. Like, if Patrick Mahomes, let's say, won five MVPs. You know, I mean, Peyton Manning did that. you wouldn't put them at that level.

I guess what would you have to do to be like Michael Jordan? I guess if, if, I don't know, there's something more than just like racking up trophies and racking up titles. Eric is, it's playing style too, and Ricky has put up at the bottom of the screen, Tom Brady, are you numb? There's no arguing with his success. Are you numb? What are you, Wayne Campbell? I think she misspelled dumb. Tom Brady has not played with a style that has made people outside of football take note and say,

Well, he's so exciting. I would say this about Jordan. And Wes were at that same age where we were like fourth, fifth, sixth grade. Jordan was, you know, the sun was rising on the NBA. And I have these notebooks filled with just Michael Jordan drawings. And something that was different about him than anyone else was the very truthful marketing campaign that this man could fly. Like, I am a young kid falling in love with sports. And you've got the black and white ad where he's taking off from the first.

foul line with the overlay of an airline taking off into the skies. And the way he was marketed in the clash of Jordan and Nike. And then he'd go out and do things like how many players were dropping 61 points on the reg over and over on teams. He was doing stuff that nobody else knew how to do or could do. And I mean, he captured the imagination in a way that no other athlete did growing up for me. The reg. I like that. On the reg. Sounds ridiculous when I say that. And we have stuff to get to. We should move on, although it would be fun to do

an entire Michael Jordan NFL podcast. That seems weird. But when they go to France to do like a charity tournament type thing before the start of the 97-98 season, there's a headline in a French newspaper that Michael Jordan is the closest thing we have to God or the closest thing to God. He's, I think it was in reference to his high-flying ability,

but also just how incredibly popular he was. And Brady, like to your point, Ricky? as hugely influential in terms of like the popularity connected to the Patriots and what he was able to do, he's never really grabbed the country's attention and fascination the way a guy like Jordan and obviously Ali and... Or the world. The bad people were before us, but...

He also wasn't one of the top five players at his position in the first six years he was in the league. So he's different. But thinking about your question, Maybe it's football is too much of a team sport because I know basketball is a team sport, but basketball, boxing, baseball, it's a place individuals, I think, can maybe shine in a different way. Well, it's also a global thing. Babe Ruth toured Japan in the 1920s before airplanes were popular.

You know, Michael Jordan globalized basketball. Muhammad Ali met with world leaders while he was a champion boxer. And Muhammad Ali changed politics around the world. So Tom Brady doesn't have that kind of power playing an Americanized sport. Sorry, Erica. Keep it on mute. All right, a lot to get to. Bob McGinn is joining us from The Athletic to break down all the great draft heat.

And there's so much to get to. He's the best in the business in being plugged into insiders. So it's great to have him on the show. We're looking forward to that conversation. But before that, let's do some news. My mentality was to go out and win at any. cost. Jordan is the most talented

player in the NBA by five. The show of the 90s, the team of the 90s. How you do it? Whenever they speak, Michael Jordan, they should speak, Scotty Pepton. We created an image that people want to live up to. I think that's all you can hope for.

And before the news, just a reminder, Tomorrow, big day as we get closer to the draft. Tuesday, we will have the annual Mark Sessler mock draft. That will be an audio show. And also, we're double-dipping the Twitter show returns, usually on Friday. This week, it will be on Tuesday tomorrow at 2 p.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. Eastern. Oh, and it's late night. It's fun over in the UK.

in Ireland and surrounding territories, what would that be? It would be 10, I believe. 10 p.m. Although, you know what? The last time I attempted this, I got 12 tweets saying, you don't know how to do that.

But then, yeah, we do get the tweets like, but we just had a time change, mate. Right. It's like I'm not talking about one in the summertime. Stop it. Find it. Twitter show. All right, let's get to the news.

Here we go. And Mark, we're excited about that mock draft. Let's start with Leonard Fournette. So, you know, Leonard Fournett, we talked about it on the Twitter show on Friday that he spoke out, you know, saying Cam Newton would be great in Jacksonville. Well, Jacksonville, you know, they might be okay with Cam Newton coming to the Jaguars, but they also may be okay with Leonard Fornett not being with Jacksonville rap sheet reported that the Jaguars had trade talks centered around Fournet for more than a month and they circled back with teams in the last three days, aka they're aggressively shopping the former first round pick. ESPN's Josina Anderson reports that the Bucks are not expected to be a taker. They were connected to the running back for a while, but apparently that is not happening

according to Anderson. Gray, what kind of market does Leonard Fournett have at this stage of the game? Obviously, has been a disappointment since coming into the league. I would guess very little to possibly none. He's due $4 million this year. Can they get a conditional seventh round pick for him? you would think. But I think that's about the area we're talking about.

I almost thought when this is floated out, because they're so sick of dealing with Fournette, that they almost want to show them. They want to show them, like, what the league thinks of them, that that's all they're going to get for him is like a seventh round conditional pick. The Jaguars used him as a three-down back. I can't think of another franchise that would use him on passing downs.

He's just not that good at it. It's misuse of an asset to use him on pass- passing downs. I think he's limited in his skill set. He can get you a thousand yards on first and second downs, but he's going to need a tunnel to run through because he's a straight ahead runner without as much lateral agility. And with Mike Garofalo pointing out that he's been oversleeping, he's been tardy, he's been moody, and he was drafted by Tom Coughlin who had a vision for a run first offense. So there's a lot of negatives there surrounding him. Is there any selling point because, I mean, number one, you're not looking at an NFL right now where there are a lot

of running back holes. I mean, the Bucks were one team that you could think of them maybe adding, stacking up backs with them out of the picture. And they seem very zoned in on drafting a running back. You can catch passes out of the backfield in the Tom Brady offense. I mean, Leonard Fournett has been, if anything, a consistent headache. And, I mean, involved with some of the more problematic scenarios in Jacksonville over the last three seasons. So, I don't trade him. He's a former fourth overall pick. Is he going to help you in special teams?

No. Is he a guy that you could plug in in a depth role as a backup and expect him to be a good soldier about it? I don't know. It doesn't seem like that maybe is the safest route either. Has he performed at a high level when given the opportunities? I mean, in spurts, but overall it's not really worked out. He's a guy that might struggle to find a job. Probably will get a job, but he's in the league in 2020, right?

Yeah. I think definitely, but you're not going to give up anything. You're not going to give stuff up for him. Right. He's in the journeyman portion, potentially. In other Jags news, Marquise Lee, another former high draft pick, 2014 high second rounder. He is done with the team. Jaguars released the wide receiver.

He missed all of 2018 with an ACL injury, played just six games last season. So he had kind of been off the grid a little bit. and now the Jags cut ties with Marquise Lee. West, does he make sense to you at 28 years old as a flyer for a team, or is he just another guy? I think he's just another guy at this point. You don't want to write off his career because, like you said, he's only 28 years old. It's been a lot of leg injuries, and sometimes it takes guys a couple of years before they can return to some semblance of what they were. I think he's a guy you signed sort of like a Jason Verrett, who the 49ers signed to play cornerback,

where leg injuries make him a complete and utter wild card and it's a question of whether he'll even make your team or not. They made some bad moves in Jacksonville. I just got to point out, though, this might be one of the worst contracts anyone's side. And it was partly bad luck injuries. They gave him like $25 million guaranteed. He had three catches combined in the last two years.

I mean, they've had a disastrous couple of years as a front office that they've skated by on. All right. In other news, New York Giants, they are picking number four overall. All the mocks seem to have them grabbing one of the tackles and plugging him in as a guy in front of Daniel Jones. But Yahoo Sports is Charles Robinson.

Excuse me, NFL networks Ian Rappaport reports that the Giants, quote, have spent a lot of time researching Oregon quarterback, Justin Herbert, a process that's included FaceTime Conversations with Coach Joe Judge. Wes, you're shaking your head. Do you put any stock in the idea that the Giants could be interested in taking a quarterback, or is this your classic draft smoke in the days leading up to the big event?

0.0 stock, and it's laughable. And what is Gettelman doing? He's never made a trade before, and then he announces, this is the year he's interested in a trade. And then all of the NFL insiders come out hours later saying, oh, yeah, by the way, we're thinking about a quarterback at number four. if you want one, you'll have to trade with us. I mean, come on. It's a little bit, yeah, it's a little see-through.

Yes. Desperately wants someone to train in that spot. And I mentioned Yahoo Sports. Charles Robinson reported that, yes, the Giants have, you know, connected with Justin Herbert and they're looking into him. He is completely certain New York will not be selecting him. And he called it the flirtation, a quote, Patriots culture move, Joe Judge, who has New England ties,

a situation where they're kind of doing a valuation of the prospect for down the road and just to have it in the bank. So do not put any stock into the idea that the Giants can go the route of the Cardinals a couple of years ago or a year ago, I should say. Mark's trying to talk, but he's on mute. I was debating just letting him. Wow. That would have been problematic or better for all of you.

But I mean, I don't think they're the only team that does that kind of thing during the draft process. Who's actually, who is buying on any level that they get a quarterback? I think nobody. But there is some credence. If you, if anyone wants to trade up for any of these passers, and it seems more and more unlikely, maybe you want to get up to that spot just to get ahead of everything falling behind it. But I mean, the Giants could have not telecast this with any less panache. I mean, ultimately the news nugget served its purpose to let you guys tee off on Dave Gettleman for no reason. So we're all good. I think there was a reason. I mean,

it's fine. You guys are happy with it. It's good. I mean, maybe not Bumble so much. In, oh, and by the way, we will be talking again with Bob McGinn in a little bit, and we will certainly touch on all the quarterback situations around the draft.

The New England Patriots, they tagged Joe Tunney their all pro guard, and Mike Reese of ESPN, believes that the Pets could be open to trading the interior alignment during the draft. So, Tune, Greg, he signed the tender three days after receiving it. And people were surprised when that happened in the first place

because the widely held thought was that he was going to hit the open market. And then Tom Brady News kind of blew everything off the page, Patriots-related, but that was still a bit of a surprise. Would you be surprised if they moved the guard? now I won't be because Mike Reese reported at him putting it out there of all people tells me that's what they're looking to do and it does it does make sense it helps explain the tag I mean he's a really good player that you know as a Patriots fan you'd love them to just resign but they have negative they have the least cap space of any team in

the league if they wanted to do anything else they also are short on a second round draft pick because they gave away Mohammed Sunu and it it would in retrospect kind of explain why they did this tag? Why let them go for free if you can maybe get a second or third in this year's draft where they feel like they might need players like right now. They don't want to wait for a compensatory pick. You know, Greg, I read your general manager rankings. Good piece. But you have Bill Belichick number one. And what I would ask is, like, because you explained in it that that was a career-wide, you know, look at Bill Belichick to some degree. But the Bill Belichick of the last year or so, the team is in weird...

weird cap situation. I think they left Tom Brady totally hanging from a talent perspective last year on offense. I mean, what grade would you give them over the last 365 days? B minus. I think the drafts, though, over the last five, four years have been bad. I'm not going to kill them in terms of the talent that they had like a number one type of defense and a team that could, you know, win 11, 12 games. games in Tom Brady's age 42 season, like setting up last season. The sinew trade, though,

if it's not just him being hurt, and he was hurt, like, right after he got there, that he looked like a disaster there. That was a fiasco. And to your point, Mark, Joe Tuny's about the last good guy they drafted. I mean, they do not have, like, big draft hits in the last four to five years, and it's been fairly spotty in terms of the draft. They've done a lot of things working around the margins, little pickups here or there that are. contributors and that that's like what they do but it hasn't been great he's number one though yeah for the just make the case against it being number one for the past 40 seconds at least how i've done that that's the third year i've done it i said like they're getting

graded on the total like um the whole body of work body of work in their current job and so it's hard to it's hard to move him off that spot who would i put first i also didn't know who to put there like brett v what is the top five i'm curious bret vich was second with andy reed And I heard from a couple people that were like, it's really Andy Reid. It's not Brett Veach, which was interesting to me. But he gets the credit for Mahomes, even though Dorsey was there at the time. And then Howie Roseman is four. Kevin Colbert is three.

John Lynch and Schneider were there up there at five and six. No, Chris Ballard? Chris Ballard, I think, is eight. He's up there pretty high. Little John Robinson in the top ten. I thought he's done a nice job, Titans. Check it out And yes, check it out

But the fact that you would Who are you putting above them? I'm just saying that's fair That's fair But I think the idea of saying goodbye to Tom Brady And then right now the organization is set up With Jared Stiddem and Brian Hoyer Is a huge hole left by the man in charge

But then again I also would ask I would also ask why your editor has you writing this before the draft Ouch We went in that direction Yikes. Shots fight at the editor. Well, I think because you could either do it right before, after the season, I guess, would be another time. But you've gotten like a feel of their last draft class. We've gotten a feel of the, you know, the free agency.

Okay, I see that side of it as well. All right. Well, you know what? Obviously, it is a juicy topic with a lot of layers. Yeah, people don't like that patriot. I guess I'd wait and see about their quarterback position before I kill it. Like whether Stidtum's any good or whether they get a first, you know, whether they do something and get someone now. All right.

Then how about this? Veach slash Andy Reid at number one and maybe change the format to include these guys that are the czards of their organization. I think there's there's something to be said there, although their drafts have been a little weird the last few years. Okay. Moving on, this is for, oh, by the way, the Patriots made their color rush jersey, their primary jerseys, effective today, Greg. So congratulations on that. That's a popular move. In other news, back to the Jaguars. You know, what it? I don't know what's going on with this organization.

Yoniken Gokwe is one of the best defensive players, a defensive lineman in the AFC, and he wants out. He's frustrated that the Jags have yet to trade him. And all that bubbled over on Monday when he went on social media and challenged the Jaguars to get a deal done, get him out of Jacksonville. And in one of the things that would have never happened,

and there would be no way for it to happen, 10, 20 years ago. It led to a back and forth, public back and forth with one of the team builders. So I will play the role of Yannick and Gakwe and Mark, will you play the role of Tony Kahn? Yes, I will. Tony Kahn friend of the show. He's spoken with us before at the owner's meetings. He is the, what is his role exactly?

He's owner of football and in charge of football analytics at the Jaguars, according to his Twitter profile. Okay. Shad Khan is his father. I think he's EVP now. Yeah, that's what I thought, and I was just going off the Twitter profile. But that sounds right. Wes, here we go. Yonik, hashtag free yon!

No answer. At Tony Khan. Stop hiding, Mo. All right, now this from Tony Connie responds. He says, I'm not in hiding, sir. I'm in isolation, getting ready for the draft. I've been pretty active on social media, in isolation, but you wouldn't know that since you unfollowed me in parentheses again.

Oh, do that meme where the dude runs by holding his face and all his friends are going crazy behind him? Okay. Since your feeling might today, what? Since you're feeling might today, let's both let the world in on the truth. We've been had a discussion that the Chargers game was my last game. You try to back door the situation without answering any of my camp's calls. shaking my head you spoiled bra holding up people for no reason clown emoji it's a new regime

here sir i think or i thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of the contributions you made here that said tweeting insults at me won't get you traded any faster only good trade compensation will do that please redirect your efforts into a more productive outlet and you'd think it would be over at some point but it keeps going just trade me i don't need the speech and then a emoji of a finish line like a checker flag and then con you know hits them up again show me the compensation i'm sure you're really driving up the price today btw by the way out and that's and that's kind of where things ended so this is grisly i don't think this is really the the method that any team executive should be going down but also you know i was a big

george steinbrunner fan and if steinbruner had twitter he would have been doing stuff like this all the time so i guess i can't get on a high horse Wes, what are your thoughts on it? Well, it's not very smart on Yonnik and Gokwe's part. It's letting emotion do the work of reason. If you're trying to do a trade, don't sabotage your own value in such a public way, just lighting fire to your trade value and putting the Jaguars in a very poor spot. I think it's just not smart as far as a means to an end.

I don't think you would hurt his value too much. I think there's going to be a lot of interest. And teams understand it didn't hurt Jalen Ramsey and different things. Like teams understand he wants to get out. I was more taken by the little sentence. And I've seen a little bit of this in Jacksonville. It's a new regime. Please.

I mean, the same people who hired Tom Coughlin are running the place. The same general manager there is running the place. The same coach has been there since, you know, Blake Boyle. Mortals was on the team. Let's quit with... I killed Cofflin as about as much as anyone else, but let's quit on like, hey, it's everything is Tom Coughlin's fault.

Come on. Can't call it a new regime if it's not a new regime. Just can't. If the coach is there and the GM's there, it's not a new regime. I can't think of a team with more unhappy players. It just seems to be a stockpile of Discord. And one of the weirder off-seasons around.

Also, I enjoyed it in Gakwe's accent really cranking up as it as it went along what accent would you say that is i don't know i don't know it's kind of like a it's kind of like maybe the significant other of like the lekehia's mom impression maybe i don't have like a caribbean overtone it's like a street heavy i don't know that's that's interesting i guess everybody hears it in their own way that's what's happening in the news all right as we promised this is somebody that We're so thrilled to talk to because in a lot of ways, you could refer to him as the Dean of American Draft Insiders.

That's how I see him. He's Bob McGinn. This is his 36th year working on his NFL draft series. You could read him right now at The Athletic, previously at the Greenway Press Gazette, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He had his own website for a little bit. Now he's at the athletic.

Bob, welcome to the Around the NFL podcast. We're so excited to get educated by the dean. let's have that it guys thanks for having me uh you know i this we're all big fans because it's there's no way to prepare for the draft from our standpoint without reading your work and this year especially i'm like taking note of some of these quotes that you get bob they're so juicy they're so salacious do you think you've been around the game long enough and you obviously are highly respected in this realm both as a football writer in general and a columnist and in this particular realm that these scouts and these gms and these personnel guys want to impress you like they want to give you the quote and they feel proud to give you one that shows up your copy

I don't know if it's that but I mean these are long conversations with most guys a lot of people you know they go out of their out of their way to spend a lot of time with me and so there's all kinds of you know garbage in the middle of these conversations but in these capsules I write the stuff I I have a lot of material to choose from, and I usually try to get the quotes with some punch, you know. And you do it every time. It makes it such a fun read. So we're going to kind of spin through some of the position groups. And like Bob said, he breaks it down by position group. And again, if you don't have a subscription, I think the athletic, is it for free right now? I think it might be.

So make sure you read this. And if that doesn't hook you, I don't know what will. But let's start with the quarterbacks. And it's fascinating in all the people that. you spoke to, and you spoke to, you know, many, many, many plugged in people in the industry. Joe Burrow is by far the best prospect out there, and everyone expects him to go to Cincinnati at one. Two is the guy that jumps out to everybody is the big wild card. And after reading your piece on this, Bob, it is an absolute mystery to me.

You spoke to personnel guys, 10 on the high end of the scale in terms of concern level, one to ten and the average of the panel was 7.6 and here's one of those juicy quotes I'm talking about there is concern serious concern about the durability said a high place personnel man for an NFC team the ankle the hip the size you name it it's hard because you can't get your hands on him this this does feel like one of the biggest wild cards in recent memory at the quarterback position Bob I agree totally I mean you know not that long ago I mean still I guess the narrative out there is that he, you know, he might be third to Detroit or to somebody come into that spot.

I just don't know. I don't, I didn't sense that at all in these conversations. You know, he's got, and his NFL passer rating for his career would compute to 138.1. And, I mean, it's just remarkable. There's never seen any, that kind of efficiency, unless Burroughs this year, NFL passer rating, 143.7. But, you know, he, you know, he, played with fantastic receivers and, you know, on and on and on. But in terms of the

durability, he takes all these shots. He doesn't protect himself. I covered Brett Fire for his entire career, and he would be recoiling after he would throw it. I mean, he took a lot of shots, but he just was never injured. He knew how to take a hit. Aaron Rogers is the same way. I mean, he adopted a sliding posture after about his third or fourth year, and, you know, he's escaped injury. But Tua has not done that. He's getting drilled, and people estimate is 40 between 4-8-5 and 4-9 he's six-foot even he's strongly built but boy there's red flags all over on this durability you had you had three teams had him off the board entirely yeah yeah no you know it's easy for them to say because you know

two of them had you know a quarterback that they're not going to be dealing with that's easy to say but still yeah i do wonder with him because i think it's gotten lost you know you had surgeries on both of his ankles. And he's a guy who's, you don't even hear any concerns about his height, which I think shows how much quarterbacks change. I mean, he's six foot tall. He's maybe not as athletic as some of the highly drafted quarterbacks. How much, how much of this with him potentially slipping do you think is about his game and his game style? And that, like, he's not a guy with a big arm who's not necessarily, you know, above average athletically, and he has these injuries. So as someone who doesn't follow the college game, and I know the numbers are

outrageous, and he's known as a great leader and everything, and that's why he will get drafted high. But that's not the profile of many guys that we've heard getting drafted early, injury prone, you know, shorter and not necessarily like a difference maker athletically. no it isn't he um a fantastic release right and um but again he had all these clear window throws uh people wide open and things like that and he would drill the ball in there you know we all saw it and it was uh it was like a shooting gallery um but again his picks came when there was pressure uh scouts don't feel

he really handled the pressure real well um he's short i mean it's hard to see over that certainly he's with a great system and great players all around him tremendous offensive line I just don't see it I mean in talking to all these people it just doesn't ring you know he doesn't ring like a top 10 or 12 guys guy even despite the durability issues

it just doesn't I mean when I started this about a month ago or five weeks ago I was expecting more but boy in the inflection of these voices it's not there One thing that I love about your capsules is, you know, in the time of reading them, it doesn't take long. The top half, I fall totally in love with quarterback X based on the positive glowing comments from scouts. But then in the back half, I'm suddenly terrified of the player. And I just wonder, when you're putting these together and you've been doing it for so long, you got a guy like Joe Burrow and across the board.

And, you know, the comments were exceedingly positive and kind of stuff we've never seen before about a player's ability to process. There's a little bit of that with some of the other guys, too. But do you have a pretty fair level of suspicion about any type of quarterback at this point, having done it so long? I look at a guy like Justin Herbert, who people are talking about someone maybe trading up for, but there's the personality stuff. Every one of these guys seem to have something that would be in the area of red flag. Are you, do you look at like Joe Burrow, for instance, is someone that is truly different than prospects that have come down the pike previously? Let me just mention this, you know.

I mean, a lot of people accuse me of being negative in my writing on the draft. But guys, if you were inside those draft rooms, it's a lot more brutal than the way I write it. I mean, this is their livelihood, the future of these franchises, and they are not worried about being politically correct in these draft rooms. They are ripping, they are praising, they are going back, and forth debating, arguing with each other. It gets intense. And so, you know, you're right the way, I give you the good early and then, but then there's strength and then there's

weaknesses. I'm just trying to be realistic and honest and take people inside where these people, you know, real people, the decision makers and the area scouts and whoever are talking. So back to Burrow, I don't see many negatives from anybody on Burrough. Yeah, you know, it's sort of a one-year wonder, but, I mean, this was such a one-year wonder, and he wasn't that bad as a junior either. I talked to a lot of people trying to compare him. Okay, is he on the level of, oh, some people bring up Andy Dalton. Some people, I said, well, is he as good as Stafford or Carson Wentz? They kind of paused. Some say yes, some say no. But then another guy, one of the last people I talked to, he said, oh, man, way above that stuff, way above Stavis.

And Ryan, he said he's in there with Peyton Manning and Rogers, anybody you want to name. Ooh, boy. Yeah. So there is just, they love this guy as a kid, the way he handle himself. And he throws it well enough and he's got good size, 30, you know, high test score. Small hands, though. Small hands, though. Come on.

That is true. The biggest hands in recent memory was Mark Sanchez for the record. So let's, you know, count down by a hand. What were that? I think 10 and a half. Wow, okay. Bob, one of the things we get from your articles is how much the NFL changes from year to year. And we see quotes about stationary players, can't get drafted anymore, nose tackles.

There's a guy, one of your quarterbacks, Jalen Hertz, who, from reading it, I sort of get a Tassum Hill sense that teams see him as a football player and a guy you want in your building, but not necessarily. as a starting quarterback, is that sort of a, do you see him as a guy who's going to have a taste some hill-like role? Yeah, that's an interesting comparison, hadn't thought of that. That makes some sense, though. I would agree with that that he's kind of a backup, maybe gadget guy, special teams, whatever, but he threw it so well at the combine, you know, without pads on his shoulders and against air and everything, but he looked like a real passer that day.

he'll yeah maybe he you know i mean he hurts is a terrific runner and you know you love the kid and the transfer and the way he handled all that i like them um seems like about a third rounder and maybe he can have a good career doing a lot of things bob you mentioned joe burrow you think you know kind of checks all the boxes maybe you know not the biggest arm in the world but he makes so many plays you know off structure that you know i can imagine every team's going to be confident in him but then you look at the rest of the lSU team and i do wonder, like, talking to the scouts, how much they are trying to account for how ridiculously dominant that offense was, that it almost felt like Joe Brady was there running

a pro offense, and they were going up against a lower level of, you know, college coaches, that guys, and I'm specifically talking about Justin Jefferson, like, and maybe they're running back to Edward Tiller, that he's so open all the time, and the production's just off the chart. But when you watch Jefferson and some of the other LSU players, is there like a concern that it's just the scheme like creating these numbers? And Jefferson, especially compared to all those other receivers out there, you know, isn't maybe as special or unique just as an individual talent. To a degree there is.

But then guys, when I start talking about Chase and Jefferson and that Marshall guy and the running back, then they say, yeah, but Bob, look at that offensive line. He said, yeah, the center's okay. but, you know, and the left tackle was an athlete who got suspended. He said the other three guys, there wasn't all that much there. He said, that's why he had to scramble and move. He said, you know, he looked like Brady kind of negotiating the pocket, climbing up. So, you know, yeah, supporting cast was, I mean, great on the, at the skill positions,

but not real great up front. In the wide receiver group, Bob, there's a quote you have near the top of your capsule. This is maybe the deepest wide receiver group, so that a longtime AFC personnel man. But as far as like a Julio, as in Julio Jones, or Calvin Johnson, absolutely not. I've seen it in some places. And just so you know, Bob,

I'm sure you plugged in on me and my career in this podcast. I'm a big Jets fan. And so with the Jets sitting at 11, C.D. Lamb is a guy that our friend, some people's friend, Daniel Jeremiah, has going to them. But when you keep in mind a quote like that and the idea that this is such a deep wide receiver class, do you buy into the theory out there that it would be a mistake to be taking a wide receiver in that 10 to 12 to 13 range when you could get another need, a higher end player perhaps, and then get a still a quality wide receiver later in the draft in the second or third round because we're talking serious depth this year? Yes, I do. I do.

You know, there's a lot of balance, and you're going to get them from 30 to 80, 90, something like that. They're going to be really good players. But still, guys, don't you think somebody from these top 10 or 11 people are going to be very close to Julio Jones or Calvin Johnson? I just kind of do. Somebody's going to emerge here, and I don't know who it is, but there's enough talent on this board to think there's going to be one real shining light. and all these teams are thinking that too. So if they pass and they go take tackles who are, you know, okay, serviceable and all that.

But if they pass the guy they totally believe in, we know the game is, it's scoring now and it's a perimeter-based game. You pass that guy, you might regret it. Yeah, I mean, you could see why if you're a guy like John Gruden or something, that some of these wide outs are just too tantalizing to move on. But there are in that cluster. of the Jets and Browns and other clubs with real legitimate

offensive line tackle needs and I can't remember a draft where there were so many top 10 first 15 pick projections of tackles that are just clustered together and coming out of this project did you view one of the tackles as clearly

better than the others or did anyone particularly scare you? Because for us jumping in, it just seemed like a big stack of guys and like what's the differentiator here? Man, those top four in my, I've never had such a close poll. The top four were just almost on top of each other, 78, 75, 71, and 71 points. You know, I mean, Ezra Cleveland has a chance to get in the first round.

He's really a good pass blocker. He's been compared by one scout to David Bakhtiari and Brian Belaga, the team I covered for years. so and Austin Jackson I mean he donates his bone marrow to his sister and you know he pays the price his final year at USC but he's a lot better than he showed we know about the other ones I mean there are other guys I can't say who's going to come out of it I certainly like Robert Hunt a lot too from Louisiana whether it's a guard or a tackle it's a good group but beyond your drafts here We read your Packers game recaps as well, and they're very good. I think out of all the guys I've read over the years,

you come the closest to a style that's like Dr. Z, Paul Zimmerman. Is that something that you did on purpose? Was he a role model, or is that just a coincidence? I mean, that's how I basically how I learned to write. I've been a subscriber to Sports Illustrate since I was about eight, and I've read every issue. I saved those issues for four. 40 years when I eventually moved, I had to get rid of them all.

And that's where I think the writing was so beautiful and the editing was phenomenal that that's where I think all of us learned to write, really. I certainly admired Paul. I knew him a little bit, not a lot. I'll mention another guy who influenced me to Jerry Green of the Detroit News. He would write for Street and Smiths every year, the NFC Central Preview. And I grew up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. And I've told Jerry this.

He had an entirely different style. It was way, way early for his time. And he was a lot like Paul Zimmerman. And he was analytic when nobody else was. And so I love Jerry. He's covered every Super Bowl. And he influenced me quite a bit. Yeah, for our listeners who haven't, you know,

heard me, you know, honk about Dr. Zee in the last couple years, if it's been that long, like the thinking man's guide to football to me is still the best book on football. At least if you're like a young writer, you're getting into the business on how to think about football, even if you don't write. And it's hard to imagine the type of book coming out and Mark is showing the video to me of a nice looking first edition.

It's hard to imagine someone getting the access that he had. But just even the way to think about the game, there's nothing better. While we're on the topic, though, of these game recaps, Bob, before we let you go, I got to ask you about Aaron Rogers. because you're tough on him sometimes. I feel, I don't know what your relationship. How is your relationship with Aaron Rogers right now?

Good starting point. Well, I haven't seen him in a couple of years, so I'm not sure. I'm just curious where you see him right now because it's obviously when you get a reputation, like, you know, someone like Rogers and you have the high-end play, you mostly just hear all positivity, especially from a national level. But there's a certain school of thinking, and you've been writing about it, certainly, that he has not been the same player the last three or four years. I guess I'd just be curious before you go, like where you see he is now compared to where he was earlier in his career.

You know, some people think he slipped physically. I don't one bit. He's a workout maniac in the offseason. He takes care, tremendous care of his body. I do not think he slipped physically. I think his arm is fine. I don't see any problems with any of that. But you just got to do it, you know.

And, I mean, he's got a good enough supporting cast. He's got one fantastic receiver, and, you know, he's got a great running back. I mean, yeah, the other wide outs and tight ends weren't very good this year, but the old line was real solid. So, you know, supporting cast come and go, and he has to make people better. He can take them to the Super Bowl any year. He hasn't been there in about a decade. I mean, it's time, really.

Um, he's certainly one of the 10 best QBs in the league without, you know, any doubt. And there's a lot of good QBs in this league. And he had his team in the NFC title game last year. He just has to do it. Let me connect some dots there, Bob. So you say physically he's the same exact guy. He's supporting cast that's a little bit overstated, um, that he's in some type of, uh, disadvantage, uh, position. Because he does have some big time players.

Is it, is it coaching that's kept? is production, more pedestrian recent years? Is it the mental side of things? Is it off the field? Is there anything else that you can add on kind of your feeling on where Rogers has been in the last couple years compared to that peak

in the beginning of last decade? It certainly hasn't been coaching. I mean, Mike McCarthy, if he told me this once, he told it to me 20 times, his goal was to make the quarterback look great. His entire goal was a coach number one objective. And he built

everything around Rogers, and LaFleur's done the same thing. The system is made order for Aaron Rogers, and he is a good player, and he just has to get back to a great level. He knows his mind and his ability to process everything is beyond incredible, really. He can throw accurately. He can still scramble at age 36. but for some reason he just hasn't really done it here played really well a little bit little stretches but for the last five or six years

it's not been consistently elite all right good answer thank you so much for your time bob and again the dean of american draft insiders that's what i call him bob mcgin and you could read them at the athletic the athletic is a subscription service but not right now during this COVID-19 madness. And speaking of that, Bob, I hope all is well with you and your family and you stay well. And we hope to hear from you again soon. We'll be reading you in the meantime. Thanks very much, guys.

Take care. Thanks, Bob. Hi, Bob. Oh, that was great. Bob McGinn. Nice guy. He, to me, falls in the category of, you know, and this is a, this is a narrowing group. Gentleman Scribe, he just seemed.

like an incredibly warm, gentle individual who is sitting on way more football information than most men in America. He wrote a great book, too. It was like a Super Bowl book where he talked to players, played in each Super Bowl. I recommend that. He kind of speaks quietly, but, you know, carries a big stick. You know, underneath all of that, like, he's going to let you know what he thinks. And we got some interviews with him.

he's an opinionated guy like way more opinionated than he showed before he was very nice and genial though and we get this question all the time on Twitter and DMs and things of that nature how do I get into the business how do I get involved

what do I have to do to put myself in position to find success well doing things like reading Bob McGins columns finding the people that are the best of what they do in terms of how they follow the sport and just reading guys like him there's there's a tip for you so check it out all right big week like we said monday show in the books tomorrow tuesday the twitter show uh live and also the mark sessler mock draft mark

you ready for that i am you know i this thing is changing by the minute i i don't know how else to describe it on the fact that i thought i would spend just a little bit of time on it it is an all consuming um project that is you know a long way to go get ready wow fluid fluid uh that's coming up Tuesday. Wednesday, we're going to do some sandwich props connected to the draft also, and it's been two years in the making spice rack returns with his predictions on the guys who will hit in a big way, kind of five guys that spicy believes in. Okay, we've had Jonathan Williams in the past. Good luck. We've had, we've had, you know, spicy has had some issues in the past in the segment. Sometimes he's, he's shined, and then sometimes he's cratered. So it's, that's one of the things

that are exciting about this spice rack in parts unknown like the ultimate warrior sharing his draft hot takes remember the year he just wouldn't give us wouldn't do it yeah he came on and then he decided no i'm not going to give you my sleepers that is a volatile uh individual i still don't know if it was because he was unprepared or he was making some type of statement like or it was like a punk rock type move i still i'll never know you say he could he's going to give us five names it could be eight names and it could be one or none. You'll get what you get. It really makes me laugh

thinking about that. So spicy coming back to the around the NFL podcast on Wednesday Thursday. The draft of course we will be recording immediately upon the completion of the first round with a show going up that night and then we'll have another

show. That show will stand for Friday and then we'll have another show wrapping up the whole draft that we will record on Saturday night and get up as soon as possible. So That's our draft week coming up. It's time to sing about. Stan Hansa signing off for Quiet Storm, The Mailman, the old boss, Rick Hollywood.

Thank you, Bob McGinn of The Athletic. Until Tuesday. Hey, Hey, everybody. on move the six we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies coaching trends and how front offices construct winning rosters we study the tape talk to decision makers and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else it's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens

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