NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - EMERGENCY PODCAST: Browns Fire Head Coach Hue Jackson and Todd Haley

Episode Date: October 29, 2018

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comNFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. This happened just seconds ago. More madness for the Cleveland rounds as they try to fix their coaching staff. We are anticipating a news conference coming from Berea, Ohio, addressing the moves. made today to fire head coach Hugh Jackson and also offensive coordinator Todd Haley. Sources tell me that offensive coordinator for the Browns, Todd Haley, has been fired.

The decision to fire Hugh Jackson, Todd Haley, and then replace them with Greg Williams and Freddie Kitchens. Man, it is a wild day in Cleveland. Maybe not the most, maybe not what we all expected, but certainly a very Browns kind of day. Emergency podcast. Yep, the Browns have fired. Hugh Jackson, their head coach, and their offensive coordinator, Todd Haley, and we are here. The heroes had to unite to discuss it.

Dan Hansis along with Mark Sessler. And yes, Mark Sessler's okay, everybody on Twitter that's asking if Mark's okay. He seems okay right now. The mailman, Chris Wessling, and on the bat phone for this emergency podcast, is Greg the Hammer, Rosenthal. Greg, you there as well.

Why am I the Hammer? It's a wrestling ref. It's a fair question. But I kind of like Greg the Hammer. Sounds good. So Greg's on via the phone. And you know it's serious business when we assemble on a Monday to talk about the news. Mark, we're going to start with you on this.

You're feeling when you heard the news, how surprised were you that it happened today? We've been working here, Dan, since 2010, and this is the fifth time this has happened to the Browns. Wow. I mean, this is, so I think... Which is more of head coaches than the Steelers have had since we were born. This is what they do. Is it true that it's all after Steelers losses, too? All five.

Past six. It's amazing. The past six. I mean, this was always, I think the ups, it's interesting when the firing of the assistant coach is more surprising than the firing of the head coach. This was always the powder keg going into this season. one thing that you felt like with Cleveland, despite all the optimism, was just hanging out there as this variable and this big concern was Hugh Jackson's tenuous nature as head coach. And I guess it got this far, and I'm not surprised to see changes because the thing that haunted

Hugh Jackson for so long, and it began, I think, last season and really dug into this one, was the whispering, the gossiping, the infighting. When you can't control your building enough and in your own mouth, to not go out on out in front of the press and talk about Todd Haley and your, his play calling, and you saw it in Hard Knocks, you saw it now. It just seemed like there's just been too much drama. It's so similar to so many previous regimes. And here we are once again. I don't find it surprising in the least. Wes, we talked about just on Sunday show, the Steelers, they thrive on drama. But they win. The Browns, they have never-ending drama. They lose. And you put those two things together. It's

pretty terrible. Well, I would add to the list of grievances against Hugh Jackson that what we also saw on Hard Knocks was very little buy-in, I thought, from the players or the coaches. His in-game strategy was among the worst I've ever seen. His handling of quarterbacks, especially the yo-yo he kept Deshaun Kaiser on last year. The offense was horrible, and that's his calling offense. For whatever reason he could not find a kicker who could make kicks. His coaching staff that he assembled, you saw in the preseason, Greg Williams and Todd Haley didn't get along, much less Hugh Jackson and Todd Haley getting along. I just think, like, the list of reasons to keep Hugh Jackson were very small, and the reasons

to get rid of him was a litany of reason. And Greg, Baker Mayfield, the report comes out from Rapsheet, Ian, who's been busy all morning, that Baker Mayfield, not the most upset guy in the world that Hugh Jackson out the door. And when you don't have a good relationship with the number one pick that is the heart of the organization now, you really have no chance. Yeah, and Mayfield's presence makes everything better, and this season is about him developing, and it's going to make the job more attractive, and now everyone will eventually get excited about the Browns again. But it just, all of that makes me more annoyed

that Jimmy Haslam and the team didn't fire Hugh Jackson last January 1st. It was pretty obvious. This isn't second-guessing. something that we talked about as a fairly likely scenario, a mid-season firing pretty much throughout the off-season. And it raises questions about whether the organization is going to make the right choice because they continually don't make the right choice. You mentioned all the coaches. I mean, Justin Haslam came in six years ago. They've had four of those coaches, and they've also had they fired Heckert, Michael Lombardi, Ray Farmer, and Sashi Brown. So that's all in six years and now they're going to have another press conference where they try to

sell the fans that this is the right move and this is the new beginning but they were doing that to explain why Hugh Jackson was saying six months ago and as recently as last night according to reports you know they were still going back and forth about whether which one of the two guys have fired which just seems like an insane position to put yourself in that you haven't learned anything from all the mistakes that they've made over the last six years there's always with the Browns when these things happens there's always something uniquely Browns to it and this was the buildup to what happened

today was what was reported Sunday morning in various outlets including by NFL media that it was is it Todd Haley that's going to go is it the head coach that's going to go then they fire the head coach in an hour or so later they fire their offense coordinator so it was a power struggle where no

one wins and it just again seems like they don't quite know what they're doing Mark behind the closed doors there Hugh Jackson won the Sashi Brown power struggle. And they brought in John Dorsey. But when the same guy's involved in one power struggle after the next, it just have to start to look at that guy. And I think that's what happened here. I think that the power struggle this time was won A by John Dorsey, but also Baker Mayfield. You can't have Baker Mayfield having to side with the offensive coordinator or the head

coach. The only bright spot I see here in terms of going forward, because again, I am out of optimism as a Browns fan. I just want to wait and see what they do. There's none of this. Don't spin me. a narrative about what's next and how we've had clear thinking here. The thinking cannot be muddier from the summer on and going on to last season. If you had fired Hugh Jackson last January, you would have had an impossible job getting someone in here. There's a lot of reasons to like this job if you're someone looking to become a head coach. And it will be the first time, I believe, since the very beginning, the Browns were reborn in 1999, where an in-place general manager will pick his head coach. They've never had that. It's always been the coach,

inherited a new GM or vice versa, and they've never gotten along, and that's the opposite of the Steelers. It's the opposite of, in many ways, the Ravens, and the other teams in this division, like them or not, have been consistent. Cleveland has always been flip-flopping with incumbents and new hires that couldn't see eye-to-eye. This may be the one chance if you're John Dorsey and you get the right guy to start anew, but I am tired of hearing myself say that, and anyone hearing this should be tired of that too. Listen, we have a missive released by the the Browns after the firings went public a statement from Dean Jimmy Haslam. We greatly appreciate Hugh's commitment to the Cleveland Browns organization over the last two and a half years.

We understand how critical this time period is in the development of our football team individually and collectively and believed it was in the organization's best interest to make the move at this time in order to maximize our opportunities the rest of the season. We certainly only wish Hugh, Michelle, and his family the best moving forward. In addition, Todd Haley has been relieved of his duties as offensive coordinator. It's quite a last sentence, yes. There's no warm send-off for Todd Haley. You just wonder what was going on behind closed doors with Todd Haley.

He must have really not been well-liked to get the boot here, too. Well, Ian Rappaport reported that he was, quote, going rogue with his play calling of late against Hugh Jackson's wishes. He was basically just doing whatever he wanted to do. Wasn't that the power he was given, though, essentially, with the John. I mean, do you think they at one point wanted to keep him around? And when he found out that Greg Williams was going to be named the interim, he just said, I'm out. I mean, by the way, Kyle Shanahan did the same thing. He wanted nothing to do with this team after all the chaos went down a couple years ago.

There's another report, this one from Mike Silver, that the organization wanted to fire Todd Haley in September, but Hugh Jackson stepped in and saved his job at that point. I mean, Greg, this was you and I are Hard Knocks Files. And one of the great things about the show is every once and a while, it doesn't happen every season, but every once in a while you end up learning something about the team through that show and then you get to almost see it all play out. And I'll never forget, episode one,

the season premiere of the Browns Hard Knock season, when Todd Haley was being openly, oh, he knew the cameras were on him, he knew the mics were on him, and he was openly challenging the head coach on the coach's decision of how he wanted to, by the way, I'm turning to where you, You sit, Greg, as I'm talking to, even though there's no one there.

He was openly challenging Hugh on his coaching decisions, and I thought that in the moment was like, wow, there is a lack of respect in this room for the head coach. That's what 1 in 31 does. And then when the losing happened again, and again, the Browns started losing this year, two, five, and one, it all came to a boil to me. It's why teams don't want to be on hard knocks. It's one of the reasons why this hard knocks was good, because I think they gave such great access. in Michael Silver's report that he, you know, made that Hugh Jackson helped save Todd Ellie's job in September.

I mean, this was Hugh Jackson's hire. So it just, it kind of gets to the whole idea of letting Hugh Jackson run this team for another year was a colossal waste of everyone's time to the point where his own hire essentially led to his undoing. And I know, yeah, they'll be a more attractive job for the next head coach. but I honestly don't put much into that because you just have to choose the right coach whether it's an attractive job or not and a lot of the coaches that have turned out to be the best

are not that attractive, Bruce Ariens being one. Sean McVeigh was a guy who no one was really looking into so I don't know whether that is going to help them pick a better coach or not. I just hope for all of our sakes and Baker Mayfield's sake that they do because I think Mayfield will ultimately make the job easier and make the organization easier to stomach for Mark.

Mark, is this a good day for the Browns? Ultimately. I think it's an inevitable day. I mean, it's never good that all the stuff that we think about Cleveland in a negative way, the turnover when every other team that's successful finds a way to build, building a good football team should not be harder than, you know, solving major human illnesses and creating world peace, but the Browns make it seem that way. And it's good only if the next decision is successful.

And there's literally no way to know that. I agree with Greg you have to find the right coach but they have hired every possible type of coach it's almost like someone on the dating scene where you're attached to someone that doesn't go well so you swing so far on the pendulum to a different type of person to have a different type of relationship that doesn't go well you poke back again they've hired every type of coach you possibly can so I which begs the question and I know Hugh probably maybe the Browns are the issue in this relationship maybe it's not the head coach maybe it goes above above what the the head coach does.

Well, that would be fair. It's always the owner. In all sports, it's the top of the food chain. And you can look at this draft class, the rookie class, and say the Browns have identified their future quarterback, running back, number two receiver, left tackle, linebacker, cornerback, and maybe even guard as future starters. Now, it's to be determined whether they're stars or below average starters or above average starters, but that's a hell of a draft class.

You can look at it optimistically. And then you say, all right, I'm ready to trust this team, provided Haslam turns the corner. And the guy who stepped into draft Johnny Mansell, the guy who wanted to give up a second and a third for A.J. McCarran, the guy who oversaw Hugh Jackson averaging one win per season for three years, which no one in the NFL had ever done, this guy decides to turn the team over to a poisonous personality in Greg Williams. And to me, that's why it's not a good day for the Browns. because the only coach I can take less seriously than Hugh Jackson in the NFL is Greg Williams. And you decided that this is what you're going to do. A guy whose style might fit a defensive room but can never fit an offensive room and cannot fit what's good for Baker Mayfield.

I was all prepared to cut the Browns a break and say this is a good day. We're turning the page. And then you do that? Vontes Burfitt of NFL head coaches is going to run your team? So are they essentially punting on the season? by installing Williams? Is that kind of how to look at, are they trying to save the season

or are they just kind of saying, that's it? I don't think they're saving the season. You just don't want to ruin these players that you brought in, but what could they have done? I mean, here's a thing, if Haley was this issue too, who, when you ever you go interim head coach.

Literally any human being on the planet other than Greg Williams. I get that you, I know your strong feelings. I'm not alone. I'm not, I don't support Greg Williams at all. It's just that the season is, wash. And Greg Williams is not the plan for the next five years. But it's probably out the door.

It shows the ongoing problematic decision making with the top of the food. I agree. And the problem with sports is that the owner, there's no referendum on the owner. The owner isn't fired. The owner sticks around. And the owner's now onto his fourth coach. And that's a major issue in Cleveland. I think we're all in agreement that Bob Wiley was the best choice. But they just couldn't do that. They couldn't pull it off. He's got too many needs. He probably said no. He said, no, I got a bunch of Lamborghini. Too high maintenance. And my belly's awesome.

I'm just, I'm not, I'm not fit for this job. But I do wonder, Greg, and what do you think about this? Because the ownership is a major part of what the Brown's issues. And what was reported was that ownership was behind Hugh, even as early as this morning. And the GM was behind Haley. And ultimately, the decision was made to fire the coach. Is this possible? The owner said, well, all right, you could fire Hugh, but I'm not letting your guy be the interim head coach either.

And then it's like, if that's what's happening, it just shows you the schism and the dysfunction is at, like, all time levels. If it was that, it was almost like, well, if you're taking away my toy, I'm taking away yours as well. I hope that's not what's happening here. I think it's partly what's happening. They're not making a decision. I mean, that's what keeping Hugh Jackson felt like was not really making a decision. And then this one, not choosing between Haley and Jackson is kind of not making a decision other than admitting to everyone that they made this. entirely wrong decision the last time out in January.

I mean, unless there's someone in the building that believes like Freddie Kitchens is the next Sean McVeigh, but I haven't heard a lot of that hype, although it's probably coming. You don't get that sense, but... Not yet. Greg Williams, by the way, has been there, D.C. since last year. He's been in the league since 1990. He was a head coach from 2001 to 2003 with the Bills. So it's not like you're handing the reins over to somebody that's in over the

their heads or doesn't know how to sit in the big chair. It's just more an optics thing. Greg Williams was the face of one of the biggest controversies in the history of the league, Bountygate. And then you've seen him. He's actually been on three major NFL films productions in the last two years where he kind of comes off as a joke, quite frankly. So it's just, it is a very Brown's move.

So the two guys in the power struggle both fired, then you install maybe the least likely guy to get an interim job that you could imagine if you had to pick some. West, like, I am not, just again, I totally hear you on Greg Williams. I'm not backing the guy at all. I feel like people were saying players are losing faith in the Hugh Jackson message. Well, that seems to happen to Greg Williams around season two as well. And so the whole thing, the whole staff is going to be gone. And if they wanted to hire someone other than Greg Williams, it's going to either be his son

or it's going to be someone deeper down like a Ken Zampeze or an Al San. What's wrong with Al Saunders? I don't know. But this is not an organization. that we trust to make good decisions right now. So they've made another one that is highly questionable. And the team may fade into total unwatchable status in the next guy. They play the Chiefs on Sunday.

How will that go? Well, you, you know, Freddie Kitchens is a Bruce Ariens guy and he's a Todd Haley guy. But as far as my research has gone, he's never called plays in the NFL. And what do you do, change the entire playbook on Wednesday before you play the Chiefs? We're going to put up 40 points on you? I like Byron Leftwich. he could be your coach in January. Keep him moving up that.

He could be your Jets coach. How about that? About keeping Greg Williams and these draft picks that look great, and they do have a great defensive core with Agba and Ward and Garrett and Ogden Jobi. And you would think most of those, especially Garrett and Ward, are going to be fine regardless of the coach. But some of those are drafted because Greg Williams, you know, like them and they fit his scheme. And they're all going to be in a new scheme next year because Greg Williams isn't going to be there. Which is essentially every Brown's office.

offensive defensive player since year 2000. And, you know, just to put a bow on this, it is, Mark, it has to be frustrated. I know you try to distance yourself from it, but you are highly passionate Browns fan, really the most passionate fan of a team that I've ever known in my life. And from that Thursday night, when I was in the pit of despair after the Browns beat the Jets, to just six weeks later or whatever it is, it just, just when you think they're going to turn the corner, they don't. But here's the one ray of light, I would say.

you guys you blew the quarterback situation with Carson Wentz you eventually got it right it looks like with Baker Mayfield maybe they blew it by not firing Hughes sooner but they end up landing the guy that they always wanted in January it is you're back to this hope cycle but you got to get the coach in place and you got to just hope the owner and ownership and the GMs they learn from these mistakes because it's just not a good look you have to build a team that doesn't peak in week three

you have you have blue chippers now and this is this is what different about this Brown's roster. Denzel Ward and Miles Garrett are blue-chip talents. Baker-Mayfield looks like it. Nick Chubb could be that kind of guy. We don't know yet. And you've got to me, I trust John Dorsey. I do, too. His guys did a

great job in the offseason. I think, you know, the question is above John Dorsey. As long as John Dorsey isn't sitting in his office right now realizing that he's in a power struggle with the owner endlessly as well. I didn't even want to bring it up. That's a no. I didn't want to bring it up.

That's fair. Is this, are we going to to get a missive in January that John Dorsey's been relieved of his duties? Then you're back to square one. I mean, the thing is there is more talent here than there was 12 months ago, a lot more. That's what you hang your hat on. But they've hired the wrong coach 250 times

in a row. I mean, come on. I am not able to look at this logically sometimes. I'm a little annoyed. Let's say goodbye now to Greg. Do you have any final thoughts, Greg? I know you are busy man. You're doing your thing. You're writing some Hugh Jackson stuff.

I'm writing that debrief. Check it out on NFL.com. And shout out to Greg Williams. You know, the double-d-community, you know, has always had mixed feelings about him. Greg Popovich definitely gets it done. But we're hopeful he can turn the corner. What a community it is.

And my last thought is, you know, a lot of hot takes on Twitter, as though there always are around the Browns. And the hottest, though, Mike Greenberg of ESPN, who had this to say, Baker Mayfield's agents should demand a trade. That kid has some magic, and they're going to ruin him. Wait, give me the miss of music again here. Baker Mayfield's agent should demand a trade.

That kid has some magic, and they're going to ruin him. For the good of the sport, the hashtag Browns should let him go. You know what you do? Let him go. If you're John Dorsey, sell him to the Patriots for a conditional 20, 24. seventh rounder to go to fit well with Josh Gordon and then go beat the bills 47 to 3 tonight on Monday night football. And you know what's

especially rich? This Greenberg character a Jets fan. Calm down, Mike. Calm down a little bit. Speaking of overpaid talent that maybe should be let go. Whoa! Bunsen burner blow towards. All right. There it goes Greg.

We'll be back. That's how you close it. We'll be back on Tuesday tomorrow with our Twitter show at 1.30. Eastern, 1.30 Pacific, 430, Eastern, 930 in the U.K. And then our Wednesday as scheduled audio show. Just get more content. This isn't replacing a show.

This is in addition. That's because it's an emergency podcast. And I am conditionally obligated to thank David Ely for allowing me to do this. This was the terms of me stepping out of my other duties today. I could see Ely making that demand. Didn't demand. We have a wonderful working relationship. Implied, though.

Wonderful relationship to two of us. David, Ely, a good man with a big heart. Okay, this got a little weird. All right, we will be back. Tomorrow, like I said, Dan Hansis, signing off for a quiet storm. Mark's okay, everybody. Stop tweeting and asking. He's fine.

Maybe. Wait until he has a couple glasses of wine. The mailman, the old boss, and Camelina behind the glass till Tuesday. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help

you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL, visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. This is an IHeart podcast.