NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - How Travis Hunter Looks at Jags OTAs, QB Battles Start and Stefon Diggs

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by John Shipley of Jaguars on SI to discuss how Travis Hunter and the new staff in Jacksonville have looked at the start of OTAs. First, the two get caught up on news including the QB battles with the Giants (01:45) and Browns (04:50), Caleb Williams commenting on his rookie draft process (07:20), and Stefon Diggs making news off the field (12:05). After the break, Gregg and John talk about how the Jaguars have used Hunter at OTAs (17:30), the new staff's vision for the team (24:20), and John's first impressions of Liam Coen (29:40).  Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

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Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to NFL Daily, where we're out here in California, just chew it on some bark. I'm Greg Rosenthal. I'm in my garage. I'm talking to my friend, John Shipley, who covers the Jaguars. Jaguars on SI.

He's going to talk some Travis Hunter, but he also can talk about the rest of the league. So we'll do a little bit of news. First, John, how is your Jacksonville offseason after Travis Hunter gave you a little bit of a jolt this year? Yeah, it definitely did a 180 from the expected Mason Graham pick, I think. If they had picked Mason Graham, I don't think, I think people would need to be reminded the Jaguars were more or less in the NFL right now. But the Travis Hunter, it completely skyrocketed. I suddenly feel like that meme, like I just became important at work and it's terrible thing.

That's exactly what the Travis Hunter picked feels out. No, it's great. No, it is great. Would you be on NFL daily in late May? Maybe not the timing otherwise, because honestly, I was just going to read essentially your analysis of Travis Hunter's time with the Jaguar so far. They've already done a couple of open OTAs. They had a rookie minicamp. Like I've listened to your podcast.

People should check out the Jaguars Insider podcast. I was just kind of sort of like copy what you said verbatim. I was like, no, why don't I actually have John on? Because to me, Travis Hunter is the most fascinating, like, new story in the entire NFL this season. But it is late May and that means all the teams are at OTAs. That's the first time this offseason that's happened. So we got a little bit of news. Most of this is late May news.

So we'll kind of go through this quickly. but I'll be curious to get your thoughts on some of it starting we'll go we'll go with the Giants I kind of like looking at the quarterback battles right off the top and Russell Wilson is out there getting most of the reps with the first team with the Giants not a huge surprise a little bit of a surprise that Malik neighbors is bothered enough by a toe injury that's bothered him since college that he's been sitting out of practice so that that's somewhat concerning I noticed Andrew Thomas their their left tackle still not healthy not a surprise after he had the foot surgery last off season, but they are sprinkling in a little Jackson Dart with the first team right off the bat and a little James Winston with the first team right off the bat. And he threw James did an interception on his very first throw as a member of the New York Giants, which I love. Any thoughts? I don't know if, you know, you dove deep because you have Trevor Lawrence there into how you think Jackson Dart is going to adapt to this situation and maybe how you think Russell Wilson looks there too. Yeah, I mean, I think just like naturally, you know, is a guy who's going to need some

time just coming from that style of offense in the SEC where it's really, you know, a bunch of go balls and RPO's and stuff. It doesn't like very much look like, you know, an NFL offense, but obviously it has a ton of traits. It was interesting to me, them taking a quarterback in the first round. Like I thought it was either, okay, take your quarterback in the first round, ride it with the rookie, take your lumps and maybe be like, hey, if he shows some development, like show to John Mare and the ownership, like, hey, we've developed this guy, give us another here to take another crack at it or sign some veterans that, you know, try to save themselves and, you know, throw out some life or servers themselves. They did both, which I don't really

know necessarily what to do with that. I don't, I don't know what the actual, like, plan is, but they had to do one or the other. So I guess, you know, they'll figure it out as they go along, which kind of seems like the theme of the Giants, the last couple. Right. I think the plan is just hope for the best. I saw our friend Mina Kimes. Check out her podcast, too, this week. I was on it. If you are interested in that, we talked to AFC X factors. And I saw her throw out there, like, what's the over, under for Dart starting? I think she said, like, weeks eight or 10 or something like that. I was like, oh, under.

Like, I might take under week three. It's possible he starts week one. Having watched these rookie, like, reps, if you're getting first team reps, even if it's just a sprinklet of them right off the bat, you got a chance for it. I know you had to live through the Jaguars giving Gardner Minchu half the rest. like through half of training camp of Trevor Lawrence. It was crazy. It was like into like the first week or two of preseason where it was starting

get ridiculous. Like like Trevor was throwing to like Tavon Austin and practice more and he was like throwing starting receivers. Quarterback battles in the offseason are good thing. Good bit. Yeah. They're good to follow. And I do think they'll give Russell Wilson as good a chance as possible to

get started with that team. But if it doesn't go well, they'll get rid of them. Also, Dexter Lawrence was out there practicing. I always like checking in on the guys who were heard at the end of last season. And Theo Johnson, who I thought was a really promising rookie tight end for them and had the same foot surgery that Andrew Thomas had. He was out there fully practicing again. So it's just good. It's more like you want to see boxes checked.

That's how I think about it. And while we're talking quarterbacks, the Browns are giving all four of their quarterbacks reps with the first team offense. Dylan Gabriel and Scherner Sanders, they're two mid to late round picks. And then Kenny Pickett got the first rep of practice, at least that media was watching, which is interesting. And Joe Flacco is another one. And I saw that ESPN Cleveland had actually put out the graphic of like all four of their stat lines in OTAs in late May.

It's not where you want to be as an organization. No. Social media has made OTAs such a wild time because like everybody agrees while they're happening that none of this matters. It's not close to real football. It's mostly just conditioning. and, like, classroom stuff. But at the same time, all of it matters extremely much.

Like, Trevor Lawrence, like, in the first OTAs, the Jags side, I think, threw, like, two picks. And, like, there were people melting down. There was an entire, like, some former NFL player, like, analyzing it. And I'm like, what are we doing here with OTAs anymore? I think the Browns, like, almost similar to the Giants, like, well, probably ride with, like, flack or picket until things inevitably get pretty bad and then see what Shudor Gabriel has. Gabriel, like, I watched him a little bit in college just because he was at UCF for like two years.

He's now the most notable UCF alumni in the NFL, as he's known around my neighborhood, after myself, you know. Oh, no. I was like, I'm trying to think has UCF produced. No, I once asked, I won't say to a player, but I once asked like a UCF alum who, like played for the Jags, like, hey, how are we going to do this week? And he goes, we?

Like, he just did not. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. But, I mean, the Browns, I kind of view like the Giants. Like, once the veterans kind of fall off, I think you probably see Shudur in there. Yeah, the most interesting thing, and I'm with you on the OTAs, although some teams, you know, treat them differently already. The Patriots reporters, they're treating OTAs way differently than Belichick did, where it was all about, like, teaching and just whatever. It's like, they're evaluating.

They're making them work a little harder. Some coaches approach it differently than others, but it's still without pads. The only interesting thing to me about the Browns is just that they're doing this. that they're splitting it up four ways. It's a wild way to do things. They're going to have to make some choices evenly. And it really shows to me that developing these rookies is important to them because it doesn't make that much sense to be that you would have a third

and a fifth round pick, taking first round, first, you know, team reps right away. Speaking of a high pick, Caleb Williams, I just wanted to close the book on the Caleb Williams story. We talked about the Seth Wickersham piece about his father and him considering their options before ultimately deciding they'd be cool with the Bears and Caleb Williams hadn't spoken to the media about it. And he did speak today and I was impressed. He had a four-minute monologue off the top of his head

before taking any questions where, look, it's a 22, 23-year-old kid who has heard everything. It wasn't some pre-recorded statement. We'll listen to a little bit of it right now. And then after I came on my visit here, it was a deliberate answer. and delivered and determined answer that I had is that I wanted to come here, just like Ben spoke about.

Obviously, you know, the past years, as everybody knows, it's a fact. That quarterback play, there hasn't been a 4,000-yard passer. There's, you know, there's all these different things that come up. And so, you know, being able to have those thoughts is, I think, fair, to be able to have, you know, good and bad thoughts. But like I said, I came here on a visit, and like I said, just like Ben said, You know, it's a, it's a challenge to be able to come in here and try and turn around. And that was the main goal of all of that.

He went on from there, before there, and he's in a tough spot as a young kid. But he was absolutely right, that not enough was made about the part of the story where I was like, yeah, once I went to Chicago, I immediately said, yeah, let's do it. And so there's nothing that the city of Chicago should hold against him. And I think their fans will appreciate it. I actually thought it was a good job. It did not seem like he had been overly prepped, although obviously, like, he thought about it, I'm sure, over the last week and a half. I mean, he even shouted out Kevin O'Connell and was like, yeah, I went there and it was a great visit. And like, look, he just won coach of the year.

Like, I was, you know, impressed by it. But once I was here, this is my city. And I still think the story was a story. It was not a non-story, like the Bears fans were all saying. But I thought he handled it well, like you want your franchise quarterback to handle it. No, 100% of a story. Anytime, like you just, you know, since like Eli, we haven't seen any pick really kind of player like exert their influence really on the draft system. So anytime the player is considering it, I think it's notable.

Like we, we didn't see, you know, I know there was people trying to generate it, but we didn't see Joe Burrow do it with Cincinnati when it would have made sense. I mean, they still haven't even signed the number 17 pick and he's a defensive end, let alone the number one pick who was a quarterback. The Jaguars were going through a really bad error when Trevor Lawrence was number one pick. you didn't see it there. He had kind of a similar media thing where he didn't interview with Sports Illustrator where he was like his dad was like he could retire without winning a Super Bowl and he's perfectly content with his life. And people obviously kind of latched onto that.

So it's just like a lesson like when you're in like that spotlight, anything you say, people are just going to take one way or another, regardless of how it's intended. And I don't think he was even wrong. Like look at how his rookie season went. Right. The bears have devoted a ton of resources now to make sure. they can fix all the issues he was kind of worried about before he got drafted by them. It's funny because in the pre-draft process, there was all this talk about, you know, how is

Caleb Williams as a leader and how much does he love ball essentially and how he, you know, handles his teammates and everything. And I think if you were just grading that since the day that he got drafted, just based on what I've heard from people that are there, just by how his teammates talk about him and just how I've observed him deal with the media, that's all been an A to A plus. And I think the on the field play was like a Gradyana Kerr for number one overall pick was like a B, B minus. But I think he'll be better this year because he's going to have a lot more support.

And his old friend Shane Waldron is down with you guys in Jacksonville. You reminded me before the show. I kind of forgot about that. They swapped Shane Waldron and then Press Taylor went to Chicago. So it's literally just Jags and Bears fans yelling at each other on X every time one of their names comes up. It's both funny and pretty unsettling. Jacks fans, calm down if you're getting on Shane Waldron.

Shane Waldron had a totally solid NFL assistant coaching career before Lannie in Chicago, which is where coaches go to die. And he was like year four of a not-so-good Iber Fluse era. And I thought actually did some good things with Gino Smith back in Seattle. So he's not the play caller anyways in Jacksonville, the key guy. We'll talk about it in a second as Liam Cohen, right? It was funny. at the combine at Cohen's podium session, somebody was like, so you hire Shane Waldron,

you worry about the Chicago thing? He just goes, no. Yeah, what's he going to say? I wanted to lead the show with Stefan Diggs and I thought, am I showing my Patriots bias or do I think that Stefan Diggs partying on a boat with his girlfriend, Cardi B, and a number of other friends is actually the perfect May story. I'd like to think I would have thought that regardless. I did not notice in all those videos that were going around on the internet, however, that he appeared to hand a substance, pink substance over to three girls after insisting that they call him daddy and he did. And that is actually like something that a reporter would have. ask Mike Rable about while Diggs is not at OTAs. Let's listen to Mike Ravel.

Well, it's something that we're aware of. And obviously, we want to make great decisions on and off the field. And we're hoping that with our time here on the field today, and that when we don't have a script and we're on the call of periods, that we're making great decisions. And so the message will be the same for all our players that we're trying to make great decisions. And any conversations that I've had with Stefan will remain between him and I in the club. Woo. Great decisions.

Like, I wouldn't have said it was a bad decision to be on that boat and having fun. It seemed, it seemed fun. The decision where it's getting recorded. Yeah. And then you're passing a suspicious-looking powdery substance is where maybe it's not as great a decision. If you had the rank, like the 32 NFL head coaches on who'd be, like, the most upset about something like this, free people's like near the top, right?

Like, it's the perfect storm. He, he absolutely is. And, you know, Diggs got a lot of guaranteed money, not past this year. So it's really like a one-year deal. And Diggs hasn't been with the team lately at OTAs. He's recovering, of course, from that torn ACL. And, yeah, video, you can check it out. Yeah.

My wife saw it on TikTok and sent it to me. And normally when it gets into her realm and she's saying TikToks about it, that's normally when it's definitely. escaped, you know, captivity. Well, the more, the more concerning part, I think, for me, just as someone who wants the best for Stefan Diggs, is, you know, his high-profile girlfriend is on that boat. And that, that conversation did not seem one like one that, or some of the actions going on. I'll just, I'll just leave it right there.

Let's move on, finally, to some more sound. When Terry Bradshaw has a great quote about not wanting Aaron Rogers on his team, I'm just going to play it on the show. So let's listen. What do you think about possibly Aaron Rogers being the quarterback as a joke? He shouldn't, that is just to me as a joke. But what are you going to bring him in for one year? Are you kidding me?

I mean, that's not the Steelers way, right? No, man, that guy needs to stay in California and go throw somewhere and chew on bark and the whisper to the gods out there. A hundred percent. I love that. I'm chewing on some bark out here. I love chewing on bark. It's just a strange sort of mind.

blowing combination of things. But I agree with Terry Bradshaw in this one. Yeah. No, it definitely seems like Terry Bradshaw thinks he has like a California, tie-dye, hippie point of view on everything. I mean, not wrong with you and on some bar. I live in Florida. It's practically a delicacy here. But I agree. I think it's so weird that the Steelers as in our organization are like doing this Aaron Rogers dance. Like it made sense in like March, but like we're in the middle of OTAs now. And I saw a quote today like Mason Rudolph talking about D.K. Metcalf's athleticism. And no offense to Mason Rudolph, but that's a terrible omen for the Steelers.

That Mason Rudolph is who you have answering questions about your new receiver who you just, you know, traded for. Right. And D.K., by the way, he's not even there this week. Mason Rudolph said he's been there about half the time. Not that that's a big deal. He just got married. Like, these are voluntary sessions, but you're absolutely right that it's just awkward and a little embarrassing that ultimately the Steelers kind of prostrated themselves, you know, waiting for Aaron Rogers to do this, where I think they know that he's, joining the team sooner than later. A couple other nuggets, and then we'll talk some Jaguars.

Just wanted to mention, in terms of OTA absences, I don't track each one like day-to-day, but Ray Sean Slater, the tackle for the Chargers, T.J. Watt of the Steelers and Terry McLoren weren't at practice for their teams, and those are all three guys that I think are looking for new contracts. So that's just something to keep an eye on. And then Tommy Trembal, if you're familiar with them,

the tight end of the Panthers had back surgery. That was news to me, and I think to, to Panthers fans, and they're hoping he's going to be ready for the start of the season. We will be back in just a minute and talk a little Travis Hunter with my friend John. Hey, this is Matt Jones. And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts pretzel?

That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more.

What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from. Scouting reports and player development. To team building philosophies, coaching trends in how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL

stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture. If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL fantasy football

podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL, visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. All right. As always, I took longer than I expected

like flying through some relatively unimportant news. I thought we'd spend the whole show on the Jaguars. We just do five minutes. But it's one of the things I like about this NFL daily format is I'm into the news almost all times a year. So I do like to keep all the listeners informed. Hopefully they enjoyed that part of it too. But yes, John, you're there.

Travis Hunter, I'm convinced, will be in the Jaguar's Ring of Honor someday. What is it called? I think it's called the Jaguar. I want to say it's the pride. It's the pride of the roar, and then the cheerleaders are the other one. Right. I remember they had some special name for it, and it's why I've killed the Browns for making this trade because I do believe in Travis Hunter that much, and I know he's going to have to

prove everyone right, but I do think he's a guy that people are going to remember as a Jaguar for a very long time and that you have a long-term plan for him. And we are at the very, very, very beginning of that long-term plan. But what has like the short-term plan looked like practically on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, so I've seen him now practice three times, once a rookie minicamp and then twice at OTAs. They've held one other rookie minicamp day that media wasn't at, and then two other OTA days. So I've seen him practice three out of the six possible times he's practiced. Every time I've seen him practice, he's been on offense.

And I don't know if that's like a concentrated effort or a plan or whatever, but his days on defense have been the days that the media haven't been there. But the days that we've been there, it's not like he's going back and forth or like somebody even was like asking at the first working minicamp. He's going to wear like a two like colored like practice jersey where he just flips it inside out, like flag football and it's going to be offensive defense. but Liam Cohen, you know, made it pretty clear yesterday, you know, he was asked,

there's ever going to be a time where he's practicing both positions in one practice. And he'll probably have to do it during the season because practices are so much shorter than it's also a lot less physical practices because it's mostly game playing stuff and install. So, but during OTAs during this time, he's not doing like two things at one. So like if he's starting the day at receiver, he's ending the day at receiver. And he's, you know, taking 100% of his reps on one. inside of the ball, whichever one he starts at. But they've said, you know, he's practiced at cornerback a couple times.

I said he was at cornerback at last Wednesday. So that'd be their third OTA practice. So I guess he went two days at receiver, one day at corner, and then yesterday, back to wide receiver. So it's pretty clear where they have their focus on. And, you know, I'll be honest and, like, Frank, like it probably is where it deserves to be because you can tell, like from rookie minicamp, at least my thought was he's definitely a guy who needs to be taught to finder points of position. He's never been able to just

solely focus on it. You know, he's always been going both ways. It's kind of at Colorado. It seemed like they were just letting South Alaska doesn't take over. So to me, the plan makes sense, but I'm already seeing, honestly, making strides in that department, just the little things are a wide receiver. Okay. A lot of ways I could go there. Let's go back to what you said that you're not surprised that they're doing it on offense. Do you mean because that's where he would be more valuable for this Jaguars team, that that just makes sense for him to start his career there,

or like that's where he maybe needs more work is wide receiver, so you start him there. I honestly think it's a little bit of all of it. I think obviously, wide receiver versus corner, like just look at the money and the contracts. Wide receiver is a more valuable position right now. You know, Liam Cohen's an offensive-minded head coach.

They said, like, Tony Bezelli did like a complete media tour before, you know, the draft. And pretty much every time, you know, he did an interview. He was like, yeah, we're looking for guys who can score touchdown. So obviously, you know, they're seeing offense is more valuable. But I also think, like, the time on task, receiver is probably where he needs it more than corner. You go back to after they drafted him, James Gladstone even said, you know, he's spent, he has spent more time at corner in his football career, football life than at

wide receiver. So just getting that coaching each and every single day, like he'd probably make a quicker and easier transition to corner than wide receiver. But I also think they see it as intrinsically a more valuable position too. See, I really respect your coverage if you're interested in like learning how a great, you know, beat writer covers the team. You should check out John's stuff. And I listened to your pod and was checking out some of the articles just like wanting you to be irresponsible and tell me how insanely explosive like Hunter has looked in that he just moves different than everyone else. And you're on there saying, you know, Diami Brown's probably made more plays than anyone.

Diami Brown's been awesome. It's like, no, give me the red meat. Tell me how Travis Hunter's looked. You see, I remember learning my lesson from last year from wondering when Ryan Nielsen were to get head coach interviews. So I've pulled back a little bit, but Tuesdays credit, Deaumby Brown.

And shorts and helmets has looked good. But no, Travis Hunter, he has looked good. Like from the first rookie minicamp practice to yesterday, I've seen him make significant strides because you could tell, like, his first rookie minicamp practice, he was like redoing drills, like three or four. times because he was like messing it up and the wide receivers coach had to good bin it would correct him and then instead of just going to the back of the line he'd

go right back to the front and restart it you're not seeing like you saw it a little bit the next oTA practice and then at this last one you just didn't see it so you're clearly seen a mixed strides as a route runner he had some reps and I wrote that you know he was impressive without the ball in OTAs yesterday I saw some fancy account retweeted and be like this is gibberish I was a wide receiver impressive without the ball and like it happens all the time they're out there for like six he plays the game. Yeah, exactly.

And there were just a couple reps. And there was one in particular against Jordan Lewis, who one of the NFL's better slot cornerbacks, like, you know, they signed him to a big deal, but he's been one of probably a top four to five nickel corners in the NFL at the Cowboys last couple years. And Hunter, just the route that he ran, the explosiveness that he had out of his break,

Lewis couldn't keep up with him. It looked like the kind of mood where I'm like, I don't know who can keep up with him. So, yeah, he's starting the little fine details and stuff. he does move differently. He does move like a free. He does have that star power that you can just automatically sense wherever he lines up on the field like, okay, this is a dude. He has all of that. Right. I became so, not that I was alone in this, but enamored with him and convinced that he could excel at both positions, but at receiver specifically watching him, not because I

know enough or thought that he's so refined as a route runner, just that the guys that do move differently on tape that you can just tell, move differently in a way that the game just really slows down for them, like mentally and physically, where he can control his body in a certain way that few others can. Those guys translate to me. Odell Beckham was certainly one of them. Malik Neighbors, I think, was one of them. Justin Jefferson in the NFL is like the epitome of that. And frankly, Brian Thomas Jr., like his teammate is one of them. So I guess I'm curious how you've seen this coaching staff come in and what kind of ideas you think that they have. And I thought it's interesting. You said, yeah, like, they're an offensive staff. Maybe that's

why he's on offense. Because I've noticed they've been all about the offense. And, like, I get it. Offense, I think it is more important or it's a little more stable. And that makes sense that you would start there. Yeah, like, it's more important to them, like, obviously to support Trevor Lawrence that is to have a good number two cornerback. You know, like, and that's all things I think like we can agree with. And I think the hunter pick was in a lot of ways, like obviously, you know, adding a guy who they think is an elite guy on and off the field, but also as a way to just help your quarterback because a lot of things that Travis does well and things that he won't need, you know, years of developing a receiver at or things that Liam Cohen's scheme, you know,

automatically brings in. Like Liam Cohen last year at the Buccaneers, they, they were probably the best screen team in the NFL. And he has a really good scheme in terms of how he dials those things up, you know, for wide receivers, for running back. and Travis Hunter, I think he's going to feast on those this year. I think, you know, if you want a candidate for, and I'm a Trevor Lawrence, like, I'm a fan of his game. I think he's a good quarterback. I think he's better than most people do.

But I could definitely see, like, his production this year there to be some, you know, Fugazi fakeness to it just because they have the pieces between the scheme and the talent, I think, to really eat on the easy button kind of things like that. And that's where I think Hunter will make everybody's life kind of easier on offense. Okay. So how do you think him and Brian Thomas Jr. compliment each other because I was so high on Thomas Jr. that I've brought it up many times because it ended up being right, unlike most of the takes that I have, where I don't think anyone would have expected him to be a top 20 receiver right out the jump, which I think he was. He was already a top 15, 20 receiver, if you're being conservative, as a rookie. I guess I'm curious just what you saw for. from him and everything that you think about him and then how he fits with Hunter and with Liam Cohen and Trevor. Because that's, to me, the model here is like Cincinnati. It's,

it's Tampa too, but it's like Cincinnati that like this, these are the three pillars along with the head coach of your organization now. 100%. He is like, like you said, won the pillars. There are when a new regime comes in, the way I see it is the new regime has their guys. They have the left over guys from the old regime, but they'll kind of pick through and determine who they want to keep. And then there's a third much smaller group of guys who are just cornerstones that it doesn't matter who picked them. Any regime wants them. And Brian Thomas Jr., like to me is right at the top with Trevor Lawrence, Josh Hines Allen, Travis Hunter, like on that list. I think even with the addition of Travis Hunter and, you know, even the on my brown, the passing offense is still

going to run through Brian Thomas. I think that, you know, one of the first things Liam Cohen kind said, you know, to the local media when he got here was like when he was evaluating receivers, He was like, I probably didn't evaluate Brian Thomas as much as hard as I should have because obviously Tampa, you know, wasn't looking for a receiver in the first round. But, you know, he gave credit to the last Jaguar staff for how often they put him in the slot and seeing what he could do from there. And he know that, you know, he's a really, really good deep threat, but he's more than that. And that's what I really noticed from him last year. Like, obviously he has a crazy speed, you know, you can get open deep on anybody, the catch radius. But his release is off the line.

His body movements for a guy who's, you know, that tall and has that frame. just his quick snaps the way he can get low and break. He can run pretty much, you know, any route, any kind of scheme, whatever you want. He, to me, has all the tools you're looking for in a number one receiver. Literally the thing he, the one thing I think he has to get better at is catching the football, which is, you know, a pretty natural thing. Like, even on some of his touchdowns last year, he, like, double clutched it. But every, I think he has every trait to excel, especially with this new staff scheme.

And they absolutely love them. Everybody in that building, like, thinks that dude is a star. speed speed is like at that level is just so hard to find and we'll see how diami brown works out it you know for the listeners that forget like did not have a lot of production for Washington but really came on in the playoffs had two of the best games of his life in the playoffs which help him get like a one year 10 million dollar contract which in this market is like number three number four receiver bunny and you said he's looked great and so the the three of them man they can not just, you know, get to the intermediate level really quickly and have those sort of

timing throws that I think Lawrence can be great at. But they can set up each other where one of them, as you mentioned, like Hunter, half his catches last year were just on those bubbles and screens and everything. And man, the guys going deep can open it up for each other on the short stuff. They're all pretty versatile. Like I am excited. I know I had you on in August and I was thinking, let the Jaguars. I'm not sure which direction they're going to go, but I do find them interesting. They were like a boomer bus team,

and they definitely busted. But I think they're going to be more entertaining to watch. How has the Liam Cohen experience been for you as a guy covering the team? Obviously, he made a lot of waves with his introductory press conference, but how has it kind of been since then? No, I remember sitting there, like, you know, in the crowd, like 10 feet away from. And the second he said it, I was like, wow, the second I look at my phone, this is going to be absolutely accurate.

Now, he has honestly been really good to cover from our perspective so far. Like, I know some people who cover the Buccaneers who said he was always good in media there. One thing I'll say about him, honestly, is he's incredibly, like on the podium, like honest in some of his responses. In a way, I haven't really seen the coaches I've covered. You know, Doug Marone didn't really say anything. Urban Meyer, he not only, you know, being honest, is not one of the first. his strong suits. He barely knew the roster.

He called James Robinson, James, the running back. Roy Robinson Harris was Roy Roberts, just stuff like that. So you weren't getting anything from him. Doug Peterson was like the classic, like pink by numbers, like NFL coach in terms of like coach speak. Like he was just giving you the generic stuff. Liam was very honest. He was asked about their rookie running back, you know, Baychild Tudin after the first OTAs. And he like fumbled the ball in his very first rep.

And somebody asked him after practice, they're like, how's Tudin doing? And he goes, well, he fumbled today. That stood out. And it was just like an honesty to me that like, like, in the past, you know, I'd probably hear him be like, oh, well, you know, he's making progress. We'll see how it does. So just in terms of getting actual interesting answers and stuff we can write about, he's been good.

I think in terms of the X's and O's, what they'll bring schematically just to make them a more interesting team, I definitely think that they'll bring because that's been a thing with the Jaguars. They've had all, like, the pieces in terms of the players to be an interesting team the last couple years. It just never seemed like, you know, the front office and coaching staff have pulled their weight in that area, too. And now it feels like, you know, they're doing that. Yeah, we'll see.

Sometimes the rookie head coaches are, like, more transparent. And they actually come into it wanting to be transparent. Like, I don't know what Doug Peterson was like his first year in Philadelphia. And then by year three, it's a different state of affairs. Or by year, whatever it was, 37 for Urban Meyer. I don't know where he was at. What did you say? Telling the truth was not his.

strong point that's a that's a very nice way to say he was like a lying liar who always lied all the time and it's probably the nicest thing i've said about him yeah didn't seem like oh there's leum uh yeah didn't seem like urban was too invested in the job what what that still feels like a dream that that still feels like the weirdest like nine months of my life um i'm excited really to just watch under and to hear about yeah how those how these first practices have been And it is interesting to think how they're bringing him along because he's in defensive meeting rooms, though, too, right? So is he, he's like doubling up with the meetings?

How does that work? Yeah, so while he's not, like, doubling up on the practice field, they did say he's been doubling up into meetings, which seems immensely difficult, like, at least to me. Like, they, I guess from their perspective, and Hunter even said after working minicamp, he's like, well, the defense is easier to learn than the offense. Because I guess, you know, like, yeah, there's different calls and stuff,

but defense, like, like coverage is the coverages. You know, not many people are throwing that many twists on it, whereas Liam Cohen, it seems like from everybody's description, like his playbook is vast and like Frankenstein-ish. It's just something we literally have never seen before covering, in my time covering the league, but in really anyone's time covering the league, because you'd have to go back to like the 1950s,

and it's just not even close to the same sport. Before I let you go, I did notice you had a hot take on your website, being very upset. It's ranking season, John. That's right. And you were not happy that Trayvon Walker was not even listed in PFF's top 32. And I don't put too much into the rankings because if you make a ranking, people are obviously going to disagree with some of it. So it happens. But I do think we're entering year four, Trayvon Walker. We'll see if he gets a contract extension or not.

Where do you see him as this number one overall pick that a lot of people have picked on over the years? because he hasn't been as good as Aiden Hutchinson. Where are you in the Trayvon Walker journey? And where do you think like PFF, maybe national people get it wrong, if we are? Yeah, no, I even mentioned in my pod that's coming out tomorrow and that, like, I'm aware I'm feeding into the machine when I do that. I'm very aware. That's the desired, you know, effect.

Now, Trayvon's a guy who I've honestly come around a decent bit on. After his rookie season, I was like, like, I was like openly going on like radio shows in Jackson He's going to be like, I don't know if he's ever going to be a double digit sack. I like, he'll probably be fine, like it, like seven or eight sacks a season, be a good run defender. He's fine, but I didn't think he'd ever be like a double digit sack guy. And then suddenly he's done it in back to back years. And I, in complete agreement that like he's not like a top 10, 15, probably even top 20 edge. I think like last year he for PFF, he was like 19th in pressures, but fourth in pass rush attempts.

So he just doesn't have the efficiency as a pure pressure guy. But I do think we've gotten to a point where he is underrated because, I mean, he's at least getting sack production. His production's increased each year. He's 24. He plays the run well. It seems like for at least what the Jaguars envisioned when they picked him at number one, which was to start slow and then to kind of gradually get better and become a pretty good player, it kind of seems like, you know, like you can question bulky picking him over Hutchinson, but at least Balke's evaluation of him and how his career arc would go. it kind of seems like he was right so far. But as long as Aidan Hutchinson's around,

I do think Trayvon's probably going to be in that weird kind of perception area. Yeah, but the thing is, he's only, he's only 24. And this idea that he's this incredibly talented physical specimen that's going to get better and better, and he has. Like, he can continue to get better. And here's the real test. Like, I'd be very surprised if he didn't get a very good second contract from the Jaguars. And if you had taken him number four,

overall or number six overall and you're the Jaguars like he is as good or better than half or more than like number six, seven overall guys. He just got taken number one and it was a weird draft and that's not his fault. But considering what a risky pick he was at the time, I'm with you. I think I don't know if he's underrated but I'm not sure the conventional wisdom has caught up to like he's a plus starter and half of the top 10 picks don't even turn into plus starters. That's just how the NFL draft works. So ultimately, like, he's been a pretty good pick. He's just not Aiden Hutchinson, at least not yet.

Yeah, like, if Aiden Hutchinson wasn't in a draft and Kvon, Tippett, that went number two, like, the Trayvon pick probably, like, nationally, it looks a lot better. That's a good point. Kvon was in that draft? Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. I remember I had Trayvon as my, I missed on everything. I had Trayvon as my number three edge guy.

I had Kvon number one over Hutchson because I was like, I don't know about this short-armed Hutchinson guy. I was having a bulky moment, and then it just blew up on me, completely. on all levels. It's a great shout, though, because a lot of draft Twitter agreed with you. And I think I might have had it lined up that way, too. At least Tibido over Trayvon Walker was totally consensus.

And ultimately, between those two players, Walker's absolutely been the better pro. So I just, you know, we don't talk Jaguars enough on this show. I feel like it's been a nice heavy AFC South Week. We talked a lot of Titans on our last show. It's that time of year. We should be given the AFC South some love. And I'm glad for you, John, that you got Travis Hunter because he got married this weekend.

I'm buying into just like that he is an intangibly rich guy that's got to change the culture just because he just seems like such an infectious, like amazing spirit. I'm buying into all of that. And because of that, John, I think he's going to have this like crazy epic career and you're going to be there to capture all of it.

Appreciate you, John. I appreciate you, man, always. Check out, John, as I mentioned, Jaguars on SI and the Jaguars Insider podcast. We will be back wrapping up the week. It's going to go into your feed Friday morning. That will be with our good friend Patrick Claibon talking about some veterans under a little bit of fire. And, yeah, like, we got a new party boat. We got a party boat story to talk about.

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