NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - NFL ATL: Top tight ends & Cam Newton vs. Andrew Luck

Episode Date: June 26, 2014

A room with some heroes -- Dan Hanzus, Gregg Rosenthal and Chris Wesseling -- discuss which quarterback would receive the bigger contract on the open market: Cam Newton or Andrew Luck. Plus, Chris Wesseling reveals his preseason tight end rankings and the guys unveil two more players who are ready to make the leap.Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comNFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. The Around the League podcast starts now. Welcome back to another edition of the Around the League podcast. My name is Dan Hansis and I am joined by a room filled with some heroes, Chris Wessling and Greg Rosenthal. What up, boys. Hey, Dan. Dan seems a little bit down without his tag team partner, Mark, here. But, you know, we're going to still have a great show, Dan.

Listen, I can just feel it in your voice coming out of the time. I always like when it's a room filled with heroes. That's true. Mark is, yes, a friend of mine. But also, you know, when his chair is empty like that, it hurts. It hurts a little bit. But it doesn't mean that I'm not going to soldier on because we have to, because the NFL continues. Even when there's not a lot of stuff going on when everybody's on vacation and people are at SeaWorld and in the Caribbean and Rex Ryan is in Brazil, we're going to still keep.

keep talking about the NFL, right, Wes? Did Rex Ryan see the U.S. lose but really win? Yes, America. America advanced to the round of 16, survived the group of death. Big victory through a loss to Germany. One nil. Very nice. Thank you, Portugal.

Big victory. We lost. Yeah, we lost, but we won. Yeah, they deserved it, though. I mean, we're not going to give too much soccer analysis, but they beat Ghana and they outplayed Portugal. Well, we're not going to give too much soccer analysis because we could not possibly get. know anything. I can't really get into this.

We lost, but we really won thing. And especially since our alleged best player has been the worst player on the pitch the entire World Cup. A little Bunsen Blurner Blow Torch action on that one guy. What's his name again?

Bradley. Bradley. Yeah, we all watched it in the newsroom. And the great thing about the World Cup and it's growing in statute. It shut down. Even the NFL offices, people were at work.

We were ready if something happened. But basically, entire NFL media group was locked in, and Wesleyan had a lot of vitriol directed towards Bradley. That's a shadowy league figure, just taking note of what Greg said. All right, sorry. All right, nice show today. A very nice show today. We're going to get to several things.

We're going to do some chatter about the top 100, which rolls on, which you may be aware of if you're watching NFL network content right now. We moved from 21 to 30 on Wednesday night. They unveiled those names. We're going to get into some of the quarterback specific. specifically that were on the list. We're also going to get into we had what we call an organic email chain over on nfl.com slash ATL. I got some heat.

I got some legitimate heat from Twitter users. Thank you. That's Alex Wilk, Wilk tie behind the knotglass with TD out of the office today. We'll get to that in a couple seconds. Coming in from the bullpen. Coming in from the bullpen, liberally using the Bunsen burner blowtorch early, not a stunner. Um, I'll use it when I want to use it. And I like it. And I like it.

The backslash, I've been saying backslash since I guess like 96 or something. And I thought that's what you call it. But then people on Twitter basically said it's no such thing. There's no backslash anymore. It's just slash. We're all about progress. So progress. NFL.com slash ATL.

That's where you'll find all our written content. We did an organic email chain in which we pose a question, one of us, and then we all answer an email. We put it up on the website. It's kind of like a cheap way to get a post out there, but we, you know, we believe in ourselves and we do it anyway. And we did an interesting conversation on what NFL player would get the highest salary on the open market. So we're getting into that a little bit. Jimmy Graham topped Chris Wessling's preseason tight-end rankings, but we're going to get in a little bit of a spoiler alert.

That's all right. Listen, I think you probably could have guessed that, but we're going to get into the rest of Wes's rankings because when the mailman breaks down things like this, you have to read it. If you're an NFL fan, you need to understand where the great Chris Wessling's coming from. Especially when he has so many questionable decisions on this, but we'll get to this. Woo-hoo! We're going to continue with our Making the Leap Series, breaking down a couple more players. But before any of that, we are going to go to Mr. Alex Wilk,

who in a former life before it became a hot-shot NFL network producer for the Fantasy Live program, did do some early ATL debate club's production work. Oh, yes, the debate club. The good old days. Back when you guys had no ego. I could schedule this whenever I wanted. Now you're scheduling me. You can tell when we were setting up the show with Wilk right before we started,

you can tell there's a little bit of edge to him. Like, he's basically doing TD and the entire NFL media team of favor by being here. So we thank him for that. He's even wearing a rich eyes and podcast pullover. It's freezing in here. And I have to wear something warm. Okay. I'll do what I can.

So anyway, why don't we do some news, Mr. Wilk? We start with news that came out just after, I guess, we went on Monday in our Monday podcast, Brendan Flowers, and the San Diego Chargers struck a contract. Of course, Flowers had been released by the Kansas City Chiefs a week earlier. You want to make flowers for that? Yes. This is the only reason why this is leading the show. Dan, so excited to have this. I love my true detective drop.

Flowers will earn $3 million in guarantees with a chance for an additional $2 million in incentive. a source of forms of the deal told NFL Media Insider. Ian Rappaport, the Chargers, the secondary is not a strong suit, so I guess this is an upgrade, but the bigger question is, is Brandon Flowers a good fit for this defense, A, and B, is he still the same Brandon Flowers of, let's say, three years ago.

You want to make flowers today? Yes. It's interesting that our guy, Louis Riddick, an ESPN analyst and former NFL front office guy, has been very down on Brandon Flowers ever since he got released by the Chiefs, has been all over Twitter saying things like cornerbacks who can't challenge wide receivers to the line of scrimmage in today's game with the bigger wide receivers and really aren't that fast they don't have much value and that's why brandon flowers

only got a one year prove it deal really well the rest of the NFL agreed with him and sometimes you realize we think brandon flower is a good player because he was a good player two years ago and riddick made a very strong point i thought which is two years ago might as well be 20 years ago in the NFL, that it's always looking forward, and the style of the game in the NFL has changed, and Flowers is coming off a bad year. The fact that a 28-year-old cornerback

who made the Pro Bowl last year could only get $3 million guaranteed shows that the rest of the NFL didn't really think he was an exciting guy at all. I mean, that's pretty low money. At the risk of inviting Shadow League figures into the studio, this is my issue with the Pro Bowl. I can never get excited about the best. Pro Bowl because Brandon Flowers had the worst year of his last five years last year,

and that's the only year he got the Pro Bowl. Well, think about this, too. Brandon Flowers got a Pro Bowl nod. Also, Antonio Cromarty was also a cornerback for the AFC Pro Bowl team, and Carmarty was dreadful. I mean, the Jets basically gave up on him despite not having a real solution to cornerback, so that tells you a lot. So, yeah, all pro, for football fans that want to know what to really track,

all pro, you can learn something from Pro Bowl. not so much. I could have sworn you were going to go to a Brandon Flowers killer's reference there that they've been sliding a little bit. He's sliding. Basically, don't get too excited. We also heard from some Chargers fans wondering if they could be the team of around the league. And they were a team that I kind of got on board with last year.

If there was a team of myself last year, it probably was the Chargers. But I feel like they have an uphill battle to get the favor of the team. I don't think it's a good sign that this is the first time you've brought them up since you were their biggest fan that. Yeah, I liked them last year. Two in a row. All right. So we've heard that Chris Johnson would be the,

maybe not the bell cow guy, but be the leader and the time share for the Jets this season. Maybe that's not the case. Jets running backs coach Anthony Lynn told the Newark Star Ledger that Johnson, quote, has got some miles on him, and they're going to do what they have to do to keep him fresh so he can be the explosive guy that I know he can be. Of course, the Jets also have Chris I.

Ivory and Bilal Powell in that backfield. Ivory and Powell split things fairly evenly last year. And now Johnson perhaps will just slide into the role and be the guy that splits it with ivory, with Powell just being a guy that comes in every once in a while. I found this quote very interesting, like it was preparing Chris Johnson for what's to come. And I also thought it was interesting that Rich Samini, who's a very good beatwriter for ESPN New York, did an unofficial depth chart of the team, which looked pretty up to date. And he put Johnson number three behind Ivory and Powell.

And I don't know whether to put too much into that, but that combined with this quote and his contract really tells me they see him as a role player. His salary pays him like a role player, not a guy that's going to get 250, 300 carries. His salary pays him more than Toby Gerhardt, right? $4 million this year, I believe. And Toby Gerhardt's a threat to lead the NFL. NFL and carries this year. We'll see if that happened.

Threat is the right word. He is. It would not surprise me one bit of Toby Gerhardt leads the NFL and run in carries. For the most part, $4 million for a running back, and I know the market's depressed, is for a guy that's sharing the ball. It's not for a big time starter. He should be sharing the ball. Right.

I think you get more out of him the less he gets the ball. He's now a guy who he moves the chains approximately once every three games. I think if it ends up being. a split with Ivory, that actually would be the right way to play it. Because Ivory showed again last year that he can be a real player, but you have to kind of watch the amount of workload

he gets as well. So if you take two guys that you kind of be wary of the workload, you put him together. I think there are a lot of things to be nervous about if you're a Jets fan this year regarding the offense, whether it's the quarterback or the depth of the wide receiver group or how the tight ends come together this year. But

the backfield is one place that I'm not nervous about. I think they're going to get good production out of there this year. I'd be nervous about the entire offense. I agree with Dan's point, though. The backfield is not going to be the thing that gets in their way. Ivory is a good player. By the way, if Chris Johnson's ever on the field on third and one instead of ivory, they're doing something wrong.

Ivory's a good player, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy since he entered the league. It's fair. All right, moving forward, gentlemen, let's keep the news nice and tight. Let's not kid ourselves. There's not a lot of news out there. So let's get into some analysis because there's plenty of stuff to talk about still right now this part of year. and why don't we get into the top 100, as I said earlier on Wednesday, they revealed the next 10 names.

We're getting into the superstar category now of this list. I will go real quick down the list. Number 30, Andrew Luck, 29, Mario Williams, 28, Gerald McCoy, 27, Patrick Willis, 26, Terrell Suggs, which is weird. What? 25, Des Bryant, 24, Cam Newton, 23, Antonio Brown, 22, Patrick Peterson, and 21, Andre Johnson. I wrote a piece that is up on the site right now, comparing Newton and Luck. Who would be your pick if you were starting an NFL franchise from scratch?

So I will open by throwing that out to both you gentlemen. Cam Newton's ranked higher on this list because the Panthers were great last year. You know, they got to buy. I don't think many general managers or any of us would take him over Andrew Luck. And I've been about as big a Cam Newton supporter as there could be. and I'm worried about what's going to happen this year with him. But if you're just saying, I'm taking luck or Cam, I don't think it's that close. I saw when Dan wrote about this last night,

you mentioned that Cam Newton has the edge in completion percentage, seems to be a little bit more accurate. This shows the fallibility of completion percentage for judging accuracy. Andrew Luck, a much more accurate passer than Cam Newton. That's fair, but I would say if there's one weakness you could pin on luck. it's that his accuracy comes and goes. The thing no one ever talks about Andrew Luck is that for two quarters at a time, he'll go away from games.

He'll miss a lot of passes. Usually the two quarters where his patch protection breaks down completely, and he's throwing to Griff Whalen because Reggie Wayne is on the sidelines, and Duane Allen is on the sidelines. He misses more open throws, and people ignore it because it's Andrew Luck. He also makes more difficult throws than any quarterback in the NFL. Yeah, I totally agree. I guess the one thing I would say,

looking to make a true argument of it is that luck, and perhaps it is that he's had bad past protection both years, and his weapons broke down a little bit last year, but his numbers haven't been outrageous his first two seasons. So you can't point at the stat sheet and say, oh, if you look at the numbers, he's a lot better than Newton. And Newton is obviously a superior rushing quarterback, although, of course, luck might be a top five guy himself in that category. But I think that Newton is a guy that you can't go wrong either. way, but I think we're all in agreement that luck would be the pick. Well, and Newton has had less help than Andrew Luck over.

It's probably close. He's had a better – Newton's had a better offensive line. The running games have both been up and down. He hasn't had much help out of his weapons either, so he's had to make do, I think, in a tough situation, which luck has done a great job, too, when he's not protected. To me, the interesting question, we'd all take luck would be Newton, Kaepernick, or Russell Wilson, if we were all taking one first. and I don't think Russell Wilson's been on this list yet,

so it's a safe assumption he's going to be ranked higher. Kaepernick was well below, and that's a tough one for me, but I think I would take Cam Newton over Kaepernick and Russell Wilson. How far has RG3 fall, and he's not even in the discussion? Right, I meant to. That's just a bad job, I mean. That's a bad job. I would still take RG3.

Yeah. Oh, wow. I know that's cool. I know I'm probably in the way minority there, but I still believe you to be right. I want because I enjoy him as a player, but I would think based on everything we know and that his knee is almost a knee in theory at this point, and he's one more bad knee injury from perhaps being a guy whose career is in jeopardy. I just get nervous about his physical stature, whereas Cam Newton to me is almost indestructible, it seems.

The way he's built, the guy was built to play football, and he proved it last year he was able to up his game and take a team to 12 and 4. The one thing about luck is, yeah, he's made the playoff two years and he won a playoff game, but that Panthers team was superior to both those Colts teams, right? Sure, but not because of Cam Newton. Although he was a big factor. I mean, you watch the win against the Patriots. You watch a lot of their wins, even though the passing game wasn't necessarily the reason they were in.

Cam Newton was the reason they beat that Patriots team on Monday Night Football. Anything else on the Top 100 episode that jumped out at you? I think we both, Greg, your reaction there, we both eyebrows were raised about Terrell Suggs, cracking the top 30. I don't think he should at this point crack the top 100. probably maybe the top of it thought it was interesting that mike singletary on our airwaves yesterday said he was the second best linebacker in the NFL still that's what he said all right i missed that well singletary knows a lot more i was a little surprised antonio brown by

the way got ranked ahead of des brian yeah also got ranked ahead of big ben right i mean come on come on people i love Antonio brown but that means like like his i did the rankings what is going no yeah like i wrote if if the pittsburgh steelers called the Cowboys and offered to Jerry Jones Brown for Desh straight up. How long is Jerry Jones laughing before he hangs up the phone? That's laughable. I don't think they would do it for Brown in the first round

pick. I agree with that. Five more quarterbacks yet to be named in the top 20, which I guess seems about right. And RG3 hasn't been on this list, I believe. So that means he's not making it. Yeah, it looks like he missed. RG3? Was he on this? I don't think he's been on the top 100. Well, Matt Ryan's not

on it. Those are two pretty good players that didn't make the list, whereas Charles Clay did. How about this? Here's a prediction. Yeah, wow. Here's a prediction. Both those guys will be on the list next year.

I'm on board with that. All right. So, and on kind of like a side topic, we're talking about the organic email chain, which NFL player is worth the highest salary? It's funny, we're talking about Luck and Newton. Those are two guys that when they do become getting the eligible area to get the big payday, they're going to clean up. So I ask you guys, and it doesn't have to be just Luck or Newton,

but I suspect they could be at the time. top of any discussion here. Open market, who gets the biggest, fattest salary if everyone was a free agent simultaneously? It has to be a quarterback. Right. Because it's so much more important than every other position. So as much as we might like Calvin Johnson or JJ Watt, this is going to be between your favorite quarterback. Greg, who was your pick? Well, I took Aaron Rogers. I thought it was actually easy. And it's because he's in his prime. He's won an MVP. He's at the level that you're hoping Andrew Luck gets to. I'm actually hoping Andrew Luck gets beyond his level.

Sure, but he hasn't been there. And to me, it's a no-brainer. He's in the middle of his prime. Why would you not take the most physically gifted? He's at that point where his mind is sort of caught up with all his physical gifts. It does bear mentioning, though, that first of all, he's 30 years old now. In this generation of quarterbacks, that doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. But there's also a very good chance that Rogers has peaked as a player.

He's had some injury issues in recent seasons. So I'm just saying, oh, I imagine that Rogers will be a top five, top three quarterback for another five or six years at least. But if you're given the choice of any player, wouldn't you want to take a guy that was ascending rather than a guy that had hit the peak and maybe he's going on for a couple years and then start going down? So you're not taking Rogers. I'm going with Andrew Luck. I'm with Wes on this. I'm taking the guy that's young. He's 24 years old that is ascendant.

and also has shown all the football DNA that this guy could be Brady-esque. He could be that type of stud. So I'm getting in bed with that guy, metaphorically, 10 years, $7 billion, and away we go. Forget about the salary cap. The question wasn't who we would take. It's who would make the most money on the open market. And the answer is Andrew Luck. Because of Aaron Rogers' concussion history and he missed games last year.

Andrew Luck is built like a bull. There's NFL executives aren't worried about Andrew Luck. injured. He has the prototypical football build. He makes the smartest decisions of any quarterback about when to run and when to slide. And it's weird for a young quarterback. He's about the only one that knows how to do a baseball slide. Someone needs to teach his quarterbacks how to slide. Maybe Andrew Luck could have the Andrew Luck Sliding Academy somewhere in Louisiana. Here's the sleeper, JJ Watt. Your thoughts, gentlemen. He's my pick if you're going non-quarterbacks. To me, I'd take 10 quarterbacks over him, though. Right?

But we're not picking. We're saying who would get the most money on the upper market. I think 10 quarterbacks would get more even than what. I mean, that's a good point, though, West, that it's not who we would take, but who would make the most. And, you know, you might just have a point with luck there. It has to be factored in that with Andrew Luck, you're never out of a game. This is one of the most amazing stats.

Since 2012, Andrew Luck is 3 and 3 when his team has fallen down by 17 points or more. The rest of the NFL, It's 5 and 91. By the way, I'm sticking with Rogers because five years, you guys are talking about the future. That's a lifetime in the NFL. And both of these guys, if there's no salary cap and they were on the open market, how much do you make? $75 million? $50?

I mean, how much are they worth to an NFL franchise? Luck also averaged 390 yards in the playoff last year with Griff Whalen as his second option in the passing game. And to the point that you're never out of a game. And I remembered this after doing some research for the post. post last night. They were down, Colts are down 3810 in the third quarter of a playoff game and won.

That's absurd. Also, the fact that he's unbelievable in close games, look at that fumble play he made at the end zone. Yeah. How many quarterback can make that play? He's got the instincts.

He's got it all, Rosenthal, and you've got to come to the light. I love him. I love him. He'd be number two on that list. Okay, that's fair. All right. So, here's another guy. By the way, Jimmy Graham,

another guy who's in the middle of uh money issue right now fighting for a i guess to not be recognized as a tight end in terms of the franchise tag that's to me the most exciting subplot of the entire off season will he get that franchise tag changed hava hava for a second i thought you were being serious then i am not i am not uh i'm not very excited arbitration he i mean come on arbitrator what's he waiting for they made the arguments a week ago do it wilk do it do it give us some news to talk about arbitrator so anyway jimmy graham as i as i teased earlier that's what they call the business mr wilk very nice last time wilk was with this outfit we just there were no teases last time

young pups now we're pros he wants back in hey by the way fantasy live they got one ounce of charisma compared to this group is charisma the word you're i don't even know you can use charisma sure i don't And I, I think Fabiano Rosenthal, it's a toss-up to me. A lot of charisma both ways. I would like to see a toss-up between them and see who can get the tip on the tip drill there. So, in my tease, Mr. Wilk, Jimmy Graham was named by Chris Wessling as the top tight end in the NFL entering the preseason. So this is how Mr. Wessling broke it down. And I, again, I say, when Chris Wessling writes these think pieces, breaking down positional,

groups, and he's going to do it for every... How many are you going to do it? He's going to go every position, or skill players, or how are we doing this? I don't know. Ask the boss. I think we'll do one a week leading into the season. This is... I kid you not, this is required reading. So the tight ends are up today, and number one is Jimmy Graham.

It breaks it into all pros, next level, strong starters. Oh, excuse me, solid starters. I don't want to... We love the tiers. Yes, Wes is wording. The next group is potential versus production, diminishing role, and then impact rookies. So why don't we start right at the top of the list where Chris Wessling has Graham, Rob Gronkowski, and Vernon Davis is top three. It would Gronk be number one if he was healthy last year, let's say.

Right, and I know that Greg Rosenthal lives in a world where ACLs never get torn. No, I'm just asking. I'm literally, I'm genuinely asking you. Yes, I think Gronkowski is number one because I think he's the greatest tight end in NFL history. Whoa. Whoa. But you don't feel comfortable, basically, with his injury history enough that you would take Graham over him?

Exactly. I think if you were saying who's going to have the better 2014 season, I think you'd take a healthy Jimmy Graham. Tony Gonzalez just came out of retirement again because West said that. He was so upset by the statement. I welcome that. Tony's not blocking. I call him Tony.

He's not blocking like wrong. I think that's fair. And you made a great point in the piece that you said it'd be great to see what Vernon Davis could do if he wasn't asked to block so much. I think they could get more out of Vernon David. If he was on the Patriots, I feel like he would have closer to gronk-like numbers. Jimmy Graham lined up outside or in the slot basically twice as much as Vernon Davis last year.

Vernon got asked to stay in and block twice as much, and it's crazy that every time they need him as a receiver, he pops up and has a huge game. So you know he can do it. The next level group, Jordan, Cameron, Julius Thomas, Jason Whitten, Heath Miller, Jer Michael Finley. Let me just ask you this, Wes, entering, let's say, a year ago, getting the DeLorean, is Jason Witten in that first tier, and he dropped down, or has he been in that spot for a couple of years now? I would think he would have been number one on the next level group. I think he's just, I don't think he takes over games quite like Graham, Grunk, and Vernon Davis, too.

That's a big drop to me from the all, I don't think it would be like this at most positions. To me, that's a huge drop from the top three of Graham Grunk and Vernon Davis to that next year. I totally agree. I think tight end is like that in the NFL right now. And Jordan Cameron is your number four tight end. So you must be expecting quite a leap in production for him this year. Not really. He was already the second best tight end last year as far as numbers go.

And he did it with Brandon Whedon and Jason Campbell most of the year. That is a lot of Jordan Cameron love, though, to be number four in the league. That jumped out of me that you would take him over Julius Thomas and Witton or even Heath Miller. But he had a better year than Julius Thomas. and he didn't have Peyton Manning throwing to him. He's more athletic than Julius Thomas. Cameron did disappear for about five or six weeks. Because Jason Campbell didn't like throwing to him.

You didn't even mention Brian Hoyer, by the way. He only played. Browns fans don't know this, so I have to remind them. He only played just over two games for the Browns. He is not Football Messiah. And, Jermichael Finley, I do like that you continue to keep Finley in our thoughts as a guy potentially a football player. There's an asterisk nest to his name because he might never play again.

This podcast alone has kept Michael Finley's name alive. We talk about him every time. Solid starters. Kyle Rudolph, Jordan Reed, Martellus Bennett, Dwayne Allen, Dennis Pitta, Greg Olson, Charles Clay, Antonio Gates, Brent Selleck, Mercedes, Lewis, and Delaney Walker. Jordan Reed, and, by the way, a little tease. Wilk, that's an industry comment.

Don't make me mute you. We'll come up again. a little later in the show. We'll so over this. Reed will come up a little later in the show. Wes, you have him right on the precipice of the next level. Oh, yeah. He could easily be in the next level

if not for the concussion issue. Right. Looking at this list, I just want a little more consistency out of Mr. Wesley. Wow, the boss laying down some heat right now. It was just a week ago that we're in here, or maybe it wasn't even on the podcast, and you're arguing with me that it's so crazy to put large

Darius Green out of Antonio, ahead of Antonio Gates, one of the greatest tight ends in NFL history. He's, you know, he's in Green's way. And this is a guy in Antonio Gate that you ranked behind Charles Clay. That's the level of his career that you believe Antonio Gates is at, that he's not even a top 10 tight end. Yeah. So how is that a problem for Lardarius Green, for instance? Because I'm not the one deciding who plays how many snaps, the Chargers are. So if you were, if you were, you would put Green on the field.

I would put green on the field, yes. As much as I... Gates was third in the NFL in yards last year and fourth in receptions among tight ends. Then why is he behind Dennis Pitta and Charles Clay? Because this is why I don't like doing numbered lists because people don't actually read the analysis. They just look at the numbers and then they're done.

Or one of those people, Greg Rosenthal, answer that. Because Gates, in the first five games of the season, averaged six and a half receptions in 90 yards. Okay. And then Keenan Allen emerged as the go-to receiver. And from week five to the end of the season, Gates averaged three catches and 35 yards the rest of the way. That's fair. Which looks like a guy who's on his last legs.

But you put him behind guys with major injury issues last year like Pitta and Dwayne Allen. Jordan Reed's got some injury questions. I guess it's really just seeing in any list form the name Charles Clay ahead of Antonio Gates gives me the HBG. Charles Clay was on the top of hundreds. I like him as a player, but not. Right. Not like... Charles Clay is ascending.

Antonio Gates is declining. That's fair. When you make a list entering a season, you have to factor this. And how about this? Charles Clay is on a side. Change a number. You want to be a tight end? You want to be respected in this league.

What is he right now? Like 29 or something? Come on, you know, get in the 80s. I believe he's 42. Yeah, I want it is a 42. Wow. Well, no, it knows Charles Clay's number. I think you're right, well.

I know, I'm pretty sure you're right. And don't hit me with an 82. Don't go knocking Dwayne Allen. You know, that's my boy. But you're knocking guys for injuries like Gronk, you know, injuries are a factor with Dwayne Allen coming off. A big injury. Dwayne Allen worked in the offseason, though. From everything we've seen, he's healthy.

Gronk hasn't yet worked in practices. Number one on this solid starters list is Kyle Rudolph. And with Norv Turner arriving in town, the tight end Messiah, I could see him. What happened the last time we saw him with a real quarterback? Kyle Rudolph? Yeah, he won the Pro Bowl MVP. I was going to say never, but I forgot. I'm surprised, Wes, that you cite the Pro Bowl statistically in any way.

No, it's a way to point out that he's had Christian Ponder throwing to him his whole career. All right, here's the category, Potentialverse Production. See, I mean, again, I'm going to say it again. This Chris Westling list, he just digs in, and if you're not reading it, you're not all the way in, plugged in on the NFL. Potential Verse Production, Ladarius Green, as we spoke of, Jared Cook, Tyler Eifford, Zach Ertz, Rob Housler, Kobe Fleener, Gary Graham, Travis Kelsey, Michael Rivera, Gavin Escobar, Luke Wilson, and Vance McDonnell. Now we're starting to get into a little dicey territory. All these guys are young guys that are obviously talented,

but haven't consistently produced in the NFL yet. And that includes Jared Cook, who really isn't all that young anymore, but I think Greg has been calling him a tease for five years now. Think about what he did, I believe, in week one last season, and set fantasy owners' hearts of flutter, and then he just disappeared as Wilk nods and sadness as a fantasy producer. Well, we did talk about Jared Cook endlessly last year for that very reason.

Right, and if you had some of these minds helping to produce podcasts, you would say, Jared Cook's been a disappointment in seven years running. He leads the league in off-season articles to production ratio. Fantasy is about what have you done for me lately. And Zach Gertz, I believe, if I could jog my memory to a couple days ago, which might be impossible, was a making-the-leap candidate via Mark Sessler. So we'll see if he can move up on this list a year from now.

Diminishing roles. All right, this is the guys, these are the guys that we're starting to slip out of the radar of society. Brendan Pettigrew, Owen Daniel, Zach Miller, Jermaine Grisham, Gresham, Scott Chandler, Timothy Wright, Brandon Myers. Cumbie, Jeff Cumberland all the way down here? How dare you, Wes. And Anthony Fassano. Cumbie, come on. I got hate tweet from a Jets fan insisting that Cumbie's role will not be diminished despite the drafting.

Yeah, man. Despite the presence of Jason Morrow, they will just run two tight-end sets and take advantage of Cumpie's playmaking ability. I will say this. This is what we need to keep in mind is that, and Rich Semeni, who we referenced earlier, who is one of the best beat guys in New York, a reference that Amaro is basically coming from a system at Texas A&M where it was kind of a wide open, it wasn't a true NFL offense,

and now he has to learn the details at this long. level, and he looked pretty slow at coming together during the off-season program. So to assume that he's immediately going to be a plug-and-play guy, I'm not yet convinced. Meanwhile, Cumberland has the trust of the coaching staff. He's made some plays in the past. I'm telling you, do not sleep on a Cumbie season. In an NFL team uses a top 50 pick on a tight end. It means the other tight-end your roster is about to lose his role.

There might be some two tight-end sets. Remember, the Jets number two wide receiver right now might be Stephen Hill. I'm just telling you what the Jets are telling us is Jeff Cumberland is not a viable. We're getting deep on coming. This is the best coming conversation. By the way, Wilk's doing a great job with these drops. You better watch out. You're kind of like Andrew Siciliano host an NFL AM.

You don't want to do too good a job, Wilk. You might be coming back. I've been on AM duty this week. We'll do it all. Football there about NFL AM talk. Anybody that works on the chest, they get up at like 1.30 in the morning. I think 11 p.m. is usually what I get in.

Gresham, by the way. West does an awesome job with all these lists. If I was doing the list, Germain Gresham seems a little underrated. He's a good player. He's with some stiffs here. We always say we don't take pro football focus as gospel. I believe the only tight end ranked lower on their list was Ed Dixon than Jermaine Gresham. Wow. You know you're getting desperate when you're citing PFF stats. That's Wesleyan's last resort. The great PFF qualifier talk.

Finally, impact rookies. Eric Ebron, who I think could do something this year. Amaro, as we spoke about, with the Jets, Austin, Safari, and Jenkins, Richard Rogers, and Troy Nicos. I don't know who that is. Nicklaus. I don't know him. A little note on Richard Rogers, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel,

who Greg and I, from our Roto World Days, believe might be the best newspaper in the country as far as following their team. Voted Richard Rogers, the OTA's MVP. I saw that. Which is weird for a blocking tight end. Apparently, he's catching everything. Yeah, making plays all over the field, making one-handed. catches, maybe has a stranglehold on that job.

Ted Thompson knows what he's doing with mid-round draft picks. Let's give him a credit for that. Austin Safarian Jenkins, who is a guy who seemed very, I was excited about coming in to the draft, you hear some not to get things about him in Tampa that maybe he's not going to have that big a role. Tell me more of this Troy Neeglass fellow. He's been on the sidelines. I think he broke a finger or a thumb.

I hope he's okay. Second round draft pick for the Cardinals. Okay. Thank you for the... Oh, that's kind of a high draft pick. I should know that. A lot of Hausler and Nicholas training camp battle going on right now. I like that.

You never know what's going to happen. All right, finally, we move forward, gentlemen. Good talk there. Again, check that out. And Wes, or Greg, when will be the next positional rankings rollout by Chris? We're going to keep doing this on Wednesdays. Every Wednesday, a new position. Our other feature we have ongoing right now, making the leap,

we will start with number 14 on the list. list today. Texans wide receiver DeAndre Hopkins entering his second season. Second banana to Andre Johnson probably. Chris Wessling wrote it up on the NFL site, which you could read at NFL.com slash

deal with it, people. Nice job. Making the leap. Wes, your thoughts on DeAndre Hopkins making the leap in 2014? On all of these Making the Leap guys, we have to say why they are on the list. In DeAndre Hopkins case, I said, because we're thumbing our

collective noses at the idea of a recency bias. He didn't do anything in the second half of the season. Didn't score a touchdown after week eight. Texan season descended into chaos. Their quarterbacks were terrible. They kept getting pulled for one another because they just weren't very good. Hopkins disappeared, but he won rookie of the month in September after four games was on pace for 80 catches, almost 1,100 yards, and 5 TDs.

He would have been an impact player already. He wouldn't have been eligible for this list if the Texans had better quarterback play last year. He's a guy we argued about because I just wasn't sure when you read about his struggles as a rookie whether he's got to overcome those. It's a tough thing to measure, but it sounded like he struggled to pick up the playbook and really be reliable in terms of them knowing where he was going to be on the field. He just wasn't ready for that. And so that's something some receivers never get over and sometimes they just improved dramatically in year two. The most impressive thing about him was the week two game against the Titans, Andre Johnson got concussed.

And then the end of the fourth quarter in overtime, DeAndre Hopkins took over the game. He finished with over 100 yards. Shab found him for five catches at the end of the fourth quarter in overtime. And he just took over. Sideline catches going over guys, jump balls in the end zone, and he basically put the team on his back. And he's got to learn another offenses here. But maybe he'll get a little bit of an edge if Andre Johnson doesn't. show back up.

Biggest obstacle, Wes. Well, I think learning the offense, that's really his biggest obstacle. He already came out and said it wasn't going to be easy. He struggled with that last year. That's his one. And he had some mental mistakes last year, as Greg referenced. That Titans game was kind of a microcosm of the season. He couldn't really escape from man coverage for three and a half quarters.

And he broke the wrong way on a pick six to Alter on Werner. So that kind of, like, his season was filled with errors and big plays. So that kind of tells you where he's at. Do you want to do some slash line over under? Sure. 70 catches. I go slightly under. I could see 65 to 68 somewhere in there.

Oh, definitely under. 70s, big for a guy who I think is going to make his money with big plays, not with 10-yard catches. 1,000 yards. Over. Oofa. Under. I'm definitely not buying that.

Eight touchdowns. Under. You always pick a big touchdown number. It's tough to get eight touchdowns. That's what says it's not predictive. Just like, you're throwing the number out there. No, and he's a guy who, his talent leaps off the screen, and he could be a guy they throw it a lot too.

So, Greg, for everyone, just as a recap, Greg's numbers for Hopkins, 12 catches, 203 yards, and a touchdown. That caught on a deflection. Touchdown number is kind of interesting because Kubiak was always one of the most conservative NFL coaches in the red zone, always ran the ball, and Shob was always one of the worst. worse red zone quarterbacks in the NFL. So it'd be interesting to see what happens with Bill O'Brien Cole in the plays.

Hopkins is a prototypical red zone receiver. He's got huge strong hands, great leaping ability, and he contort his body like Brandon Lloyd. And, of course, all these assumptions or predictions that we're making are based on Andre Johnson being on the other side of the field, taking on double teams, and all that stuff. We can assume he's going to be in the mix. I mean, that's the only way to look at it right now.

And if he's not in the mixed, I would expect better numbers for Hopkins. It would definitely be a greater challenge for him. But they have no one to throw it. That's a thin receiver group regardless. It would be a greater challenge, but his best play of the season came when Johnson was sidelined with a concussion. That's a fair point. Good job by US. All right, let's move on to number 12 on the list, Washington Redskins tight end, Jordan Reed, who we discussed earlier.

He was listed under Westling's preseason rankings as a solid starter with the potential to rise into the next tier. And you know what? I think that's a very accurate summation of where Reid's at. He, last season with the Redskins, he was one of only two receivers that RG3 really had any trust with. It was Garsohn on the outside who had 113

catches. And then Reed, who did a lot of damage in the middle of the field. And it was a pleasant surprise for a third round pick out of Florida who instantly hit the ground running as a guy that wiped Fred Davis off the map in Washington and was making plays on a weekly

basis until week 11. and where he suffers a concussion. It turns out we learned after the season that he had hit a prior concussion earlier in the season and has had four since dating back to his Florida day. So obviously that's the biggest thing you're worried about. But as far as a skill level, I mean, this guy is the real deal. He's been compared to pre-felony Aaron Hernandez for a reason,

his speed, his quickness, his power, and also his ability to move around, be a movable chess piece for an offensive coordinator. Jordan Reed is an excellent young player. and I believe, and we believe collectively, that he makes a leap. I like that you compared up to pre-felony Aaron Hernandez. It's very important. To make sure people didn't think we were, you know, saying he was a killer.

The funny thing about that is, yeah, the funny thing about that is when you do research for these things, you'll notice whenever the Aaron Hernandez's comparison comes up, the writer, it just feels obligated to say, on the field, Aaron Hernandez, as if he's referring to what happens outside nightclubs in Boston. Sorry, continue. Well, he's from Florida. And he shares some of the same Joker tendencies, chest piece tendencies, and that's why he gets there Hernandez things. But I've got another comparison for him.

Late on us. Poor man's Antonio Gates. Interesting. That's nice. Is he that physical? You know, one of the things I think. That's the question. I don't know if he's quite as physical.

That's why I said poor man's. And Jay Gruden. But I think he's as athletic as Gates. Jay Gruden did say that, you know, blocking was something that he still needs to get better at, but he has the ability to be a cable guy. But let's be honest. This guy is in the lineup for one reason. It's to be that big red zone target, the guy in the middle of the field.

And I think the addition of Deshaun Jackson even makes things even better for Reid, even though Griffin obviously has another target now. But you're going to have Jackson running the vertical threats. You're going to have Garsohn doing his thing commanding attention. That could leave the middle of the field wide open for a guy that was born to roam through that area. And to me, if he's healthy, He is a guy that can become a Pro Bowl-level talent this year. I love his talent.

I like him a lot more as a player than Zach Hertz, who was just on our list. And even DeAndre Hopkins, I trust breeds talent a little more. But I think there's two major problems. We mentioned the concussion thing in passing. But he said that for two months after he had this concussion, he was wondering if it would ever go away. So that's a significant injury risk and something to worry about. Greg Rosenthalman, I need a little more consistency.

out of you on the concussion issue. I'm just saying, you can't just throw that in there. He has a significant injury concern, and he's at other injuries. And the other thing is, I'm not sure it's a good thing going from Kyle Shanahan to Jay Gruden, just seeing what Kyle Shanahan. That's a fair point. And that offense has done with tight ends, and then see what Jay Gruden is doing with tight ends. I don't know if that's going to be great for Reid.

All right. Let's do some slash over under Fun one more time. You want us to throw it out? Oh. Yeah, throw it out. That's good. That's fun. I like that.

Over under 52 catches. Over. I'm bullish, so that's, you know what I'm going to go over too. Over under 775 yards. Oh, yeah. Over. I'm going over because I don't want to root for an injury. If he's healthy, I think he's definitely getting that.

Over under six touchdowns. Over. We're going to jump over. We're bullish on Jordan Green. I'm going to go under because I'll say under for all touchdowns. And for the record, I threw this out to the guys yesterday downstairs. I wrote a 71,000-8 slash isn't crazy talk if this kid stays healthy. That would have been the second best slash in the NFL behind Jimmy Graham last year.

And I think he has that ability. Actually, before he got hurt this week 6 through 11, he had more catches than any tight end in the league by 9. And also had a game where he went nuts, I believe, against the Bears, where it was like a 9-for-130 game with a touchdown. That was a 44-41 game, if I remember correctly. It was, yeah, I mean, this... Josh McCown outplayed Jay Cutler in that game. That is some statistical nuggets from Hanzas in West Ending. Closing, strong.

Yeah, that's how it is. So, good luck to you, Jordan Reed, because, you know, concussion is, it's ugly business. We're pulling for you. Yeah, Wilk. Concussions, ugly business. Yes, and that's incredibly ugly business. I don't have a concussion drop for you. I am wondering what happened to number 13 on your list.

We just did 12 and 14, like it was nothing. It doesn't matter. Is it unlucky to do? That's how you got the promotion, your sharpness. Confound to 14. Did anyone else catch Ian Dark used the phrase momentarily concussed during the soccer game? No. No, that's awesome.

And I love the name Ian Dark. Awesome name. Someone in the blue room, our video production room in NFL.com, did not believe me when I told him his name was Ian Dark. Asked for multiple clarifications. He sounds like the protagonist of like a graphic novel. James Bond. I like that. Maybe a Inspector Gadget protagonist.

All right, so that's it for Thursday's edition of the Around the League podcast. We will be back on Monday, and I think Mark Sessler will be back with us, so that's a good thing. We'll have the heroes all together. Wilk Ty, will you be back with us on Monday? It depends on if TD is here or not. I'm still coming out of the bullpen. I'm not starting yet. So we'll see who started.

Nigeria, I believe, advanced, which means that everything is kind of potentially up in the with TV being plugged in professionally. So we might have Wilk Ty here. We might have TD back. Either way, we're incapable hands. I'll tell you that, buddy. Appreciate that. Before we sign off, also, I want to mention that the Gold Standard,

our great producer, Zach Goldman of the past, dropped back by NFL Studios recently to tape another Sheck podcast about football that he did with TD and Shaq chiming in. So they brought that back on popular... It's great. And I hope they come back again. I've been listening to these. We're going to need a preview for the next round.

Yeah, tweet at Damasek to do another one. Keep it coming. Keep it coming. So check that out. All right, all right. All right, fella. But, yeah, so check that out. And, of course, check us out, comment and like us and do all the things on iTunes for the ATL podcast.

And, of course, the Fantasy Live show, NFL Network. July 10th. Oh, man. We got one more show July 10th, and then we start up on NFL.com, August 11th. And produced by who? Not me, actually. But you're within the show. You're in the mix.

I'll be involved. You're in the structure, and that's important. Okay, that's it. Dan Hans is signing off for the mailman and the boss, and of course the great Wilk tie, not behind the glass until Monday. Okay. Wilk doesn't even have time for us.

It's like, why am I? I have so many, like, segments for Fantasy Live, I'd rather be preparing. This is an IHeart podcast. podcast.