NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - NFL Daily 32: Ranking General Managers

Episode Date: June 5, 2026

Gregg Rosenthal and Jourdan Rodrigue rank the 32 general managers around the NFL. Find out who comes in at first, where the likes of John Schneider, Brett Veach, Les Snead, and Howie Roseman land, and who has room to move up the NFL Daily 32 General Manager rankings.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Welcome to NFL Daily, where we're on a heater this week. I'm Greg Rosenthal talking to my friend Jordan Roderig, who is across the city of Los Angeles, as votes are tabulated in our local races and ready to decide the most important race. Yes, that's the race to be the best general manager. As decided by NFL Daily in the year 26, it is time for the GM draft.

Yes, it's a draft, Jordan. Get nervous. Damn it. Look, the way we're going to structure this, we could talk a little bit about how you decided to order your GMs. We're making it less of a power ranking, which we've kind of done in the past,

at least when it comes to GMs specifically, but just wanting to be consistent with what we're doing at the end of each week. It's called the NFL Daily 32. It's our regular series. Different positions were ranking. We did coaches. That was you, me, and Ali.

Ali and I have done positions. and this is GMs, and we're going to keep the parameters the same, which is just who would we want running our fictional team? And in the past, I used to say, well, they've got to have two drafts to even qualify. If we're saying who could be running our team, Nolan Tisley, who's been running the Vikings for exactly 48 hours, is eligible. So he's going to be one of the guys' ranks. And I think compared to every other one that we do in terms of the NFL Daily 32 series,

Jordan, I'm just speaking for myself. this one is based more on vibes. The ranking is less important to me because I think luck and just unknowable factors matter so much more that I can't know about, that especially after the first eight or ten or so, I, you know, it's not that important to me where they're slotted, but a fun excuse to talk about where these front offices are at.

Yeah, I love it. One of the things that people forget all the time and us included sometimes, but I think we're pretty good about it is like being a GM in the NFL, you like you're basically thinking if I am 30 to 35 percent successful at one of the key elements of my profession, which is drafting, then I keep my job. And getting to that 30 to 35 percent is way harder than you would think in terms of hit rate for prospects.

And even that seems like such a low bar, but it's not. It's so, so difficult. And then like you mentioned, so many machinations behind the scenes. This is fun because we think about it similarly and then sometimes differently in certain ways, too. Like for me, when I was going through and putting my tears together, I was looking a lot at infrastructure. I think one of the biggest roles of a GM is how they build out their scouting and identification process and staff. do they have a quote unquote tree that are the people in their building coveted by other buildings? Is their process sound? Is their process makes sense? And is it continuous enough to

have built up a little bit of data? Like it's just that to me was really huge. Can they scout talent? Like that was a huge part of it. And it's such a hard thing to evaluate. Yeah. Doing this exercise, I didn't want to, but ultimately probably did too much, punish the people who had their jobs longer. And I think it goes to the, something that I've started to believe more strongly as I cover the lead longer, that luck, it's a bigger factor in front office work than anything else. And that should be obvious. Obviously, it's a factor when you're a player, but your tape is out there on film. We can evaluate it. Everyone can evaluate it differently, but you can see it. And I think the longer timeline that every front office and

every GM has, the closer they are to average. Because the ones who start out draft and hot, usually can't keep it going that hot. You, you know, you regress to the mean in a more aggressive way. And obviously, there's some that are great at trades and some are great at free agency. But for the most part, over a longer timeline, to me, there's less of a difference of all these front offices. But it's going to be fun to talk about who, like, who would be our style of who we would want running our team. So I'm going to give you the first choice. Or the second choice, actually. I will give you the choice, which choice you want, just so you can't say I, you know,

stack the deck in any way that you don't want. So do whatever you want, take one or two. Yeah, I was listening to one of the great Chris Bona's points that he learned about winning arguments or not winning arguments against you, Greg. So I'm just, I just want that said. Yeah, I'll go with the first pick because I feel like the first pick is, I feel like the top five are pretty obvious, to be honest. Okay.

Before we start, I do want you to share with the listener, we did package a couple of these together. Some of these, it's impossible to separate the general manager from the coach, either because they are so collaborative or because we understand the coach has a significant say in the overall draft and talent identification operation. I don't want to put you on the spot, but would you be able to share who those people are? Yeah, we'll get through him. We'll get into them as we go.

but Mike Rable, Elliot Wolf is the one that made me realize we have to do it this way because it just didn't feel right, even though Elliott Wolf is the one at the podium. I think Mike Rable has more power. So there's a handful of coach GM combos that were including, including Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch, Sean McVeigh and Les Sneed, Brett Veach and Andy Reid. And so some of them will be combinations. And then some, like who I'm guessing is going to be your number one overall pick, are just pure GMs.

By themselves, yes. Yes. The cult of Howie Roseman is my first overall pick. And it's not just that I would want him running my team for the foreseeable future. It's just that he has such a track record of doing it at such a high level. The Eagles, the way that the Eagles have been built over the last decade, maybe a little bit less, but certainly the last, you know, seven, five to seven years, it's one of the best. It's one of the best rosters we've seen in, I mean, we will be talking about these

rosters in the, like the, in historical context, like 20 years from now, if you and I are still lucky enough to be podcasting at that time. And he has a sound process that is always changing. I've been fortunate to talk to a couple of people in that building over the last couple of years. And the way that they're constantly evolving, how they think about talent identification, but continuing to build data within their existing scouting and draft and free agency infrastructure is fascinating, always looking for loopholes, always looking for edges and advantages.

They do this thing where you know that he's going to be talking to every team about every player in the entire free agency or trade period and still can more often than not get the things he wants done, even though everybody in the league knows that he's going to do it. And I like that it is very, very difficult to exist within that building, because, especially on the front office side, because of the way it's built, it is Howie Roseman at the very top and then a ton of executives and pro personnel and scouting director people who are fighting to be second essentially and or fighting to be third in some cases. and fighting to climb and the way that he builds it, it's like he loves to get the best out of people. It's very Mike Shanahan, in my opinion. He likes to get the best out of people without them ever quite knowing where they stand

and making a really challenging and competitive environment to get the best out of people. So that is not easy to do in every building. It certainly can't happen in every building. But in that one, it works. And I really like it. and I would want Howie Roseman running my team. Yeah, I don't know if it's always the most fun place to work. You mentioned the competition who's battling for two or three,

probably the most common answer. And even in that building, I think they would have recognized over the last few years, it was Alec Hallibis and he just left. And so, you know, is Howie a Halliby merchant? No, what I want to think about them is when I say, like, everyone regresses to the mean over the longer timeline for the GMs, of course, Howie Roseman has had plenty of misses.

You mentioned like 35% is a great hit rate. Like they've had big time mistakes. But to be honest, like since the Jalen Rager pick, the drafts have been on a heater. I think like even a Jalen Hertz pick, which was so underrated and not people were a fan of. Like, people kind of forget what a great pick that was. But the main reason I have him easily high is I just think he's always been ahead of the rest of the game. In terms of getting early extensions done with your great talent, in terms of the line play that they've always. valued at just an extreme level, always planning ahead of drafting positions you're already good

at and planning a couple of years in advance. They started then zinging when other teams are zagging by paying like linebacker and running back, which was the thing that they weren't going to do when it comes to Zach Bonn and Saquin Barclay. So just always a little head of the game, hard to argue with what they've done. I'm going to go number two, which is where it gets interesting. I agree there's probably a solid top five or six. Maybe we do have the same names. I decided, like the whole point of this is to win championships. Howie's got two. John Schneider's got two.

And so I'm going to give him the love in this scenario that he's on just this big of a heater. It is outrageous. If you start with the 2022 draft, and I'm going to read the names off from that draft. Charles Cross, Boye-Moffay, Kenneth Walker, Abe Lucas, Kobe Bryant, Tyreek Willan. What an outrageous draft that is. But then he follows it up with Devin Witherspoon and JSN, maybe the best. one, two in the first round combination we've seen, and Derek Hall and Zach Charbaday in that draft,

you know, followed by Byron Murphy and helping to choose Mike McDonald as his coach. That is just a heater. And I think he's built the depth of this defense, particularly for Mike McDonald, the Gino-Smith decision getting darnled. All of that is, you know, to John Schneider's credit, who if we did this exercise five years ago,

would probably been in the middle of the pack. And he kind of speaks to what I was. was talking about over a long enough timeline. These guys go up and down. He was as hot as could be, got as cold as could be, but the fact that he's now done it with two different coaches, two different regimes, you know, want to give him some love, even though offensive line has been an issue. That's kind of the one big negative.

And interesting this year, he was willing, I think, to take a little bit of a step back in terms of his aggression, which you have to do as a GM. You can't go all agro all the time, giving John Schneider his love at number two. I absolutely love this. I'm going to be honest, Greg, I was thinking about putting him at one as my pick because to your point, he is at a peak right now. You know, like you aptly said, GMs go through peaks and valleys. And this is a very high peak for him because I think that he really understood the dynamic and the preferences of the head coach that he brought in. Not in a way that you saw a lot of these successful teams, especially last couple of,

of seasons have the overhang GM take a total backseat. It was still John Schneider's roster and he built it as such. But he really understood with Mike McDonald how they wanted to build this very, very aggressively, but still not overshoot or overcompensate where maybe they didn't need to. And I think that it was masterfully done. He also has rebuilt or retooled without being like a bad football team in his time. I mean, he's had these historically good rosters that we do talk about within the historical context of the sport that have shaped the sport in different ways.

He figures out a way to do it. And like you mentioned, with multiple different coaches, it also is a building where I think, I don't think it's not getting hired out of because for the most part, Nolan Teasley, who was a Seahawks, AGM just got hired by the Vikings. It's not getting not hired out of because people don't think they're very good. He just can keep his people.

People want to stay working for him for as long as they can because people like working for John Schneider. When we talk about internal dynamics, the staff is one of the most well-respected team of scouts and talent evaluators in the entire league. And they like being there. And I think that it is a really fascinating case study in not only how to build a roster, but how to build out and develop your own internal people over a long period of time. I cannot say enough good things about what he's done in the last couple of years.

And yeah, he was close to being my top choice. And look, we say wins, losses is not a quarterback stat necessarily. I do think it is a GM stat. In 16 seasons, he's 161 and 99 in the regular season. season, you know, with obviously Carol deserves a ton of the credit for a lot of the team building, but now that we've seen Schneider do it with someone else, only one losing season for the Seahawks, to your point of always staying competitive since 2012. So that kind of speaks for itself. You are up with number three. Well, shocking everybody. I'm going to go Les Need slash Sean McVeigh.

And this is one of the pairings that we decided would work together because the two of them are in really lockstep collaboration and certainly they have their their compromises that they make over certain parts of the process. I've mentioned it on this show. I've written about this a lot. Sean McVeigh always has in a, the lion's share of the say in who eventually they do pick with whatever their first pick is going to be. But to build these and in compliment, Les Need really understands the types of players that Sean McVeigh wants. They go get them. They often capitalize on maybe market inefficiencies elsewhere. where early on it was building a team around middle to late middle round picks

and complement to superstars. Then they went to the Super Bowl. They won a Super Bowl. Then their roster, a lot of injuries in that year as well, signing the wrong veteran free agents and being real top heavy in that regard. Then crashed in 2022 and then rebuilt in totality through 2023 and 2024 with two of the best draft classes we've seen in a long time. consecutively. And that really rebuilt them into playoff and contending status. And certainly they

understood each other and how to do these things. And that was a part of their success, is their communication with each other. Les Need is a big reason why Sean McVeigh did not leave coaching, the support that he gave him during that time. And just the camaraderie and they consider each other as brothers at this point really leaned on him during. that dark period. And I just think we have seen this team be so aggressive and they've been so clear that they want to try to win a Super Bowl every single season, even when they're considered to be rebuilding, even in 23 when everybody was laughing at the roster, because there was like 43 players on it at one point. They have been clear that they want to compete every single

season. There are not many teams that exist in that state of mind. These two have done it for a decade at this point or almost a decade. I just think they do things differently, but in a way that's successful. And so I would definitely want them. If I had, like, if I had a lot of maybe like anxiety medication and like ways to, to relax outside of being in the building, like they would, I would be wanting to kind of live on that live wire with them. Yeah, I think less is a great counterbalance. And I love that point you made it, that he helped to keep Sean McVeigh. And look, Les Needs record before Sean McVeigh is a very big before and after.

He was there with Jeff Fisher and everything changed. They're 92 and 57 in the regular season since Sean McVeigh got there in 10 and 6 in the playoffs. And they made it happen their way. They do things differently. You get a few extra points for entertaining me with the Jalen Ramsey trade, with the Stafford trade. And like you said, they've identified, and I think they're great at identifying the people in their front office. And then, like, yeah, they couldn't have made this Miles Garrett trade and new contract. We'll mention that on Monday, but they gave Miles Garrett a nice raise, according to

Mike Florio on Friday, or on Thursday, rather, a, like a $5 million raise. So we'll get the details on that. But they couldn't have done it unless they nailed all those defensive line picks, including Jared Verse, but also Byron Young and Kobe Turner. That is tough. to do. They're at number three. Part of their coaching tree is where I'm going for four. Brad Holmes is my pick. I give him more credit because they took over a traditionally brutal ownership group to win with. I think they still have obstacles. That they are in the same way that Duke Tobin has obstacles in Cincinnati, I believe the Lions regime has obstacles. Now, you can say, okay, it's different now.

It's different because Brad Holmes helped to hire Dan Campbell and that Dan Campbell helped to hire the people that he did. The drafts have, you know, the 23 draft was obviously epic. Jamir Gibbs and Brian Branch and, you know, Jack Campbell and Sam Laporta. But before that, like, it was Aidan Hutchinson and Jameson Williams and Kirby Joseph. It was Penae Sewell and Alim McNeil and Amun Ra and Derek Barnes. You really can't draft any better to start. your regime. It hasn't been as good the last couple seasons, but the Jared Gough trade, I give

them a ton of credit. Obviously, they knew Jared Gough well. They've poured a ton of resources into the defensive line without enough, I think, coming back to them. And the secondary is like, eh, it's been at cornerback, especially with Tari and Arnold. It's not all perfect. They, they've started at points. You feel like they're really feeling themselves with some of their picks, giving up picks for Giovanni Manu and Isaac DeSla in the draft. We'll see, Tsasab might work out. But I think overall, when you look at the team, they have an identity. If you told me he's running my team, I would feel really good about it.

Brad Holmes, I'm not going to punish him too much for the last draft you too. Yes, I like this. I like this for a lot of reasons because Brad Holmes was, he took the scouts of all scouts path to this. And he built skills and really invested in skills along the way that applied to the modernization or the growing modernization of the league, especially when the big data wave came through several years ago. And then also when some of these processes became a little bit more technologically oriented, including using GPS data. He was one of the first people who was using GPS data to evaluate play speed versus 40 times. He was looking at

market inefficiencies at non-premium positions behind the scenes way before a lot of other teams were doing that and really influenced the Rams during his time with them. I think that he applies this really modern style of thinking alongside his NFS scouting background and NFS scout basically their job back in the still, but especially back in the day, was to write the initial scouting reports for every player that was draft eligible as a baseline package for the teams to then go and choose who they were going to go evaluate on a deeper level once the cycle hit for that draft class. So he has this really good eye and understanding of what needs to be identified in talent. But he also combines it with this like, if I like a guy, I'm picking him,

which I kind of dig. I think that's just a good energy to have if it works in your building. And he also really balances Dan Campbell quite well. They both have this, we are going to work as hard is it takes to get this done the right way, no matter what it takes. Mentality, they're a really good partnership. I like that it's been a successful partnership, despite what must have been a huge strain in the early years. And so I agree. I think he's great here.

I would be happy if he was running my team. Yeah, you said you had a solid top five. So we'll see who is in your first tier here. But I think a commonality with three of the first four, I would say John Schneider is a pretty traditional guy. Although, you know what, he picks the guys he wants, too. He's a more traditional background, but these guys all go for their guys. Is that true about the end of your first tier number five?

Yeah, this is tough for me because I, well, my first tier is more than five. I did have, this was my top five, or the first four that we've picked. These were all my top choices, too. I'm actually going to go with an example of probably our first real, coach player combination where the coach we know has a significant say in how the team is built and I believe the GM does not get enough credit

and that's Sean Payton and George Payton. I think that George Payton is criminally underrated as a talent evaluator. I think that George Payton is criminally underrated as a blend of old school scouting and modernization of process. The Broncos have, one of the most advanced internal scouting systems in the entire NFL.

Internal scouting system is where basically it's a living, it's a living program that assembles, gathers, aggregates, and then you can manipulate all of the data that you've ever gotten through all your player evaluations, the longer you have it in one building as the same operation, in the same language, the more data you have to basically bounce other evaluations

off of what becomes your control group. that is George Payton has meticulously helped build that with his staff over time and really champions a data-driven approach to looking at picks, looking at talent, looking at markets, while also really holding true to his roots. People like working with him. His scouts are solid. And they build well. I like how these teams are built. His teams are built. It's offensive line oriented. It's defensive line oriented. It's star players at premium positions, especially, on defense where you need to have a high enough floor for all of your variability that comes when you've changed coaches over and over again when you have a rookie quarterback on offense. And then enter Sean Payton, who wants things done a certain way. And George Payton does not have the ego to sit there and say, well, you know, George Peyton is the example of the overhang GM that when it works, it really, really, really works. There's a reason why Minnesota was sort of looking around.

Maybe they could pry him loose. he got a contract extension in Denver. I think he's so solid. And again, I think he is like enormously underrated in this league. That's fair. And not by the Broncos, who liked him enough to keep him when Sean Payton arrived, despite the first big thing he did in Denver was make one of the worst trades in NFL history, which was for Russell Wilson.

And his drafting and clearly how he manages the building and you gave great insight to that was a big part of that. I mean, his first draft is Patrick Sartan and Quinn Miners. That team would have been sunk forever if they didn't pivot off of that entire staff and that trade as quickly as they did, absorb the dead money of it, and then also draft incredibly well behind all of that chaos and mess to your point. So yeah, Nick Benito was a second round pick. The offensive line, George Payton built it for context that he's been there since 2021. And so I totally agree. He was in my top seven. I think I had him six or seventh.

But I'm glad you left me Jason Light here, our guy from the box, who I had fifth. He just doesn't really miss on first round picks. You have to go back to Joe Tryon, Choyanka. But for the most part, look, when he had an elite quarterback, they win a Super Bowl and they're a Super Bowl contender every year. When you have Baker, you're a very good team. You're not great.

And so, but you're, you're close to great. I just Patrick's voice in my head. Greg never misses a chance. Well, okay. My bad. But I think he just does a great job of supporting the roster and the coaches, you know, Ruben Bain in this last year, which I really like. I try not to give too much credit for this last draft because who knows how it'll work.

But Abuca, Graham Barton was a great pick, Tristan Worf's. And then I just think that the offensive line, they've been really deliberate and they have a way of doing things. been very good at that. The defensive line, they've put a lot into Colisey Cancy and Vita Veyat. Look, he gets credit for those guys. He's been there forever. Not as good, but I think they do build kind of Seahawks style, a group. Doesn't use maybe trades in free agency quite as well or as much as these top guys. And maybe that's a little bit of a

separation why they haven't been able to get over to the top. But overall, I feel really good with him running my team. I mean, they did in a big way when Tom Brady won a Super Bowl that's still there, that everybody still sort of like forgets about because it happened in the COVID season. But yeah, I think that Jason Light is awesome. I mean, I agree with you in terms of being like a top six, top seven pick here. People might be surprised to know that he's doing all of this and they are doing all of this actually without having a very advanced internal system and without having a lot of the sort of technologically minded approaches to this process. It's like,

that a lot of teams are shifting toward, just consistent. Consistent would be the word that I use. And he finds, they find the guys that they like and they keep them. And that's part of the reason why they're not as active in free agency or in the trade market is because they draft the guys that they want. They develop them. They extend them and they keep them for a long period of time. Yeah.

And look, he's done that with his coach too. Have they underperform like slightly? I do think they're a little better on paper than they've been on the field. but you can see his work. All right, who do you have for number seven? Number seven, this was tough for me. I think I'm really, I think I'm going to go with Nick Casario here. You're going to next to?

Because it's just a really well-built team. It's a really well-built team. The defense really is, it's one of the most special groups we've seen in this league in a really long time. And every player complements each other. Every position group has a clear identity. not only with the players' traits themselves, but also then how those traits can come to life within the scheme.

Every position group fits in within a larger picture that's incredibly difficult to do. I've often knocked someone who will be low on my list, Joe Shane, in being able to draft and identify like blue chip talent, but has no understanding or doesn't seem to have a clear vision of like how to put them all together in a cohesive space. Nick Assyrio does have that vision.

We can knock him, I think a lot for the offensive line, and how that's been just a real problem for them over the last couple of years. But it's also something that they've worked. They've clearly put in some thought and time to try to fix and to try to address. And then they got the quarterback. They did not sway through all the noise that year when it was Bryce Young and C.J. Stroud and Anthony Richardson, C.J. Stroud was their guy and they stuck with it. And I like how they also pay their guys or they're starting to pay their guys early,

which I appreciate. I just think overall, it's an incredibly solid, well-built team. He's got GM candidates right underneath him in Chris Blanco and James Lipfert,

who was up for the Minnesota job this year, DJ Debbock as well. These are, this is just a really well-built staff. It's a really well-built scouting operation, and the roster is

as good as it gets in this league. Yeah, if you look at the team that he took over, I mean, they didn't have a first or a second with the first team he took because Bill O'Brien had burned those picks. He doesn't get a ton of credit,

but he should for the Deshawn Watson trade. It's not just that the Browns gave up a good contract, but man, they extracted a lot of value for Deshaun Watson. And then even though he didn't have a first or a second, you know, he got in that draft, Nico freaking Collins and, you know, America's best backup quarterback trademark Davis Mills, you know, as a third round pick, which is a nice pick.

And then, you know, you had Stingley and Petrie in the next draft. You just keep adding guys, Toa Toa and CJ and obviously the Will Anderson trade has worked out, Lasseter and Bullock. Like really every year they've pushed it forward with more talent. I'm glad you mentioned getting the deals done early. The Daniel Hunter trade, I think, has worked really well. And it's just been a, it was a franchise that was always careening in different directions. And you feel, even though they came from two different kind of trees,

a really good partnership between Casario and D'Amico Ryan. So that was my next pick. I think I'm doing the first time I'm going to go off my own board. It was just like, well, this is from here on, well, no, I'm not quite at the end of the top of my tier. But at a certain point, it gets sort of vibesy. I'm past my tier one at this point. But I'm going to take Joe Hortiz, just because I like what's going on with the Chargers. This is one where it's less about the resume and more about do I feel good with him running my organization.

I like everything that they've done for the most part with Harbournes. I think they have an identity of who they want to be. I mean, you look at the draft with Joe All and Ladd-McConkie. You know, both those picks. Well, the McConkey pick was popular, but Joe Alt, not necessarily. And then you're getting guys that can be developed a little later with Tarheeb still and Cam Hart. You bring in Punta Ford, who gives you a lot of value. And then, you know, he leaves, unfortunately, but you still have Tierre Tart there.

Like, I do feel like they have an identity. They have an idea of what they want to do. the interior offensive line hasn't been great this year, but I think for what they've done in a two plus year period, it's obviously in combination with Jim Harbaugh. I think he's kind of taken the Ravens model, who was obviously the guy, or one of the guys I was thinking of right here.

That was the guy. Eric DeCosta was a guy higher on my board. I'll just give it away. I think they've taken it, and maybe it's just I haven't seen the lull, but I just like everything they've done, and I feel good about the Chargers. they remind me of and it's to your point Joe Ortiz is of this tree like they remind me of

the Ravens before Eric DeCosta took over I guess and not not in a knock necessarily to Eric de Costa you could see a little bit of the process shift or the the vibe truly the vibe shift honestly between you know in his time there so far but they remind me of those like vintage Ravens teams of how well-built they were and how they do have a very clear identity and understanding of what they want to do. One thing I loved that the Chargers did this year that I think more teams should do, just selfishly speaking, is they gave us a lot closer of a look in terms of their content at how they draft. They gave us a much closer look at the types of things that they do, how they build their boards, how they

talk to each other in the draft room. I just thought that, It was refreshing to see everybody speaking from the same alphabet, right? You can really tell how much editing a team has to do with their in-house content during the draft before and after and sort of like relative to how functional that group actually is together. And it just seems like everybody knows exactly what they're about internally. And I like that they've rebuilt this offensive line. You know, obviously the injuries are a luck thing that GMs can't really factor in or help. I like what they've done to build this really multiple. He understands like the old school,

new school blend of personnel, of trying to be as multiple as possible with old school prototypical types of players. And I just, I really like how they're built. Hey, they look good getting off a bus. Yeah, it looked good getting off a bus. Filled the doorway.

I want. I'm starting to hear the grumbling from some of the teams that we haven't picked in. I know. I just thought, you know, one specifically, will you take Brett Veach? Andy Reid off the board. Brett Veach, that's my next pick.

Yeah, Brett Veach. We talked about this. We did a really fun. I probably should have taken a Math. I probably should have taken a Math. That's okay. Well, you'll get to hear it, not me, you know? So we, we, um, did a really fun episode a couple of months ago before the draft about

which teams we would trust to draft for us. and Brett Veach and Andy Reid, but specifically Brett Veach was in like, I think our top five. He absolutely, this team is just trustworthy. That's the best way I can put it. They're trustworthy in their process.

They're trustworthy in how they build their roster. Yes, it helps to have Patrick Mahomes. But yes, they also drafted Patrick Mahomes when other teams passed on him. And they've been able to walk this line of keeping these, more antiquated or more and more antiquated stars happy and contributing

while also trying to almost build out from underneath them a roster that is functional. You can criticize the receiver rooms over time. I think a lot of what we talk about internal things that we can't possibly see. I'd be curious how much of the conversation year to year does rely on the ability of Patrick Mahomes and what he can make happen. and whether they can capitalize on him being a market inefficiency at a good way, leading to them maybe being less resource heavy at certain positions.

I don't know that that always sustains into a player's like late 20s and 30s. So they might have to readjust how they think about that. And I think he works really well with the head coach. It's just a really solid, solid group. I love that they trust Steve Spagnolo too on the other side to. Steve Spagnolo says these are traits I need and I want in a player, Brett Veach goes out and gets them. And that's exactly what a GM coach partnership is supposed to do.

It just works to me. Probably underrated them a little bit here. Look, if you look at the record, we're saying that we think it's more about the coaching and the quarterback homes, which Veach gets credit for. But, you know, we're talking about moving forward. I think the recent drafts, the recent free agency moves, some of the offensive line decisions, which they did a great job of fixing after that Buck's Super Bowl.

I mean, incredible job fixing. He gets credit for that, but it's gotten a little stale. The Carloftus contract and thing has bugged me, but maybe too much. Maybe this is a little bit of me and my feelings about have they done enough for Patrick Mahomes and giving a lot of credit to the coaches. All right, let's go to DeCosta is going to be next on my list. I was thinking about them last time. What number are we at?

We are at number nine here. Okay. Or number 10. Okay. So we'll take a break here after De Kasa. The last three drafts haven't been great. The 22 draft, you know, which, you know, they don't have, was incredible. You know, you get Limberbaum.

You get Kyle Hamilton back in those drafts. The Derek Henry move was really inspired. I think the Roquan Smith trade at the time. They definitely have a style. They're very good adding around the margins, I think, for like, late veterans. A guy like a Chedobio Ouzier who just like helped them out last year

for very little money. Those type of signings they're fantastic at. The drafts have been less so similar to the Brett Veach. You know, have they totally maximize Lamar Jackson? Technically, that's an Ozzy Newsom draft pick. That was like his last draft. Then again, you know,

they've gone 76 and 41 in the quote unquote De Costa era. They have won a lot of games and I think it's an overall like sound wanted to process how they do most things, like their drafts make sense to me, which is why I'm okay. And I actually, I give him credit for how he handled the Max Crosby thing. I'm fine with that.

I don't care how it happened. And then he addressed it afterwards, do what you think is right, not what you think is going to be popular or makes you popular. So I'm good with DeCoste. Yeah, my only thing on all that was if they saw something that concerned them enough, like absolutely you should not move forward if you are that concerned. And when I was talking to a couple of sources around the league in the aftermath of that, it was like, oh, yeah, that's just they're so, so conservative with their medicals.

I mean, they always have been. There were stories of them doing this with maybe non-premer players in the past. What I will say is you don't get to that agreement and then you don't have it leaked throughout the entire stratosphere of the media. If there's anything in your intel gathering that says, hey, we should maybe be worried about this. And there should have been something in their intel gathering because he was actually actively injured when they made this move.

Not as proudest moment. That's why I need to give him a good PR pat on the back here. Like, it's fine. We'll evaluate the rest of it. Life goes on. These things happen, like stuff like this will happen around the league all the time. he just drew the straw on it being his moment to sort of be like the main character in this in this case. Yeah, I don't mind this pick here. I could I could have debated him maybe being

in my tier two just because of those draft classes over the last couple years. I haven't necessarily loved how they've built their receivers room either, but it's the same thing we just talked about with the chiefs is getting a huge bump from Lamar Jackson being, you know, the quarterback of the team and making things happen. I really, appreciate that they did not care about Derek Henry's age. They thought this is still going to be an enormous addition for us. And it was. And I like, I could see more, I could use more draft and development on the defensive side as well. So I think when we've seen holes in their roster and their team building process, they've been gaping glaring holes that have been real

problems for the team. What I would like in a GM is to raise the floor a little bit to have enough depth in certain positions to where it's not quite so rock bottom when it's bad. But, you know, I think they're doing, as always, it's the Ravens. They do a really solid job. Yeah. And look, they win when they, I think their floor is reasonably high because they do have a tendency to win even when Lamar Jackson is not out there. And it's just, it's more solid than great.

He's definitely not at Ozzy Newsom's level. We're getting into the vibes part of the draft. Let's take a quick break. We're through the top 10. We will be back in a minute. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. IR. Radio, Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts,

including IHart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must have party bangers, plus personalized and curated playlists. Like back in the day Pride. Come together, celebrate love. Take pride with you anytime, anywhere. Just ask your smart speaker to play IHart Pride Canada. Stream us on your phone or listen now at iHeartRadio.ca. Back on NFL Daily, the episode that Jordan is going to get the most feedback from people around the league, not being happy, where they got drafted.

I don't want to hear it. I hide it from you. I shield all of it from you, Greg. All you guys are doing is evaluating these incredible professional young men all day and draftees and ranking them and sorting them. That's what you guys in the front offices have to deal with for, for, for, for, for. one offseason afternoon. We are through the top 10. You are up with the 11th pick, Jordan. Yes, I'm going John Lynch, Kyle Shanahan combination. Same. That's who I had next. Listen, I know that this last draft was controversial. I understand that. I also would present

the argument that it is really, really hard to draft completely when you are as top heavy as the 49ers still are somehow after all of. of these years. You are drafting clearly with one foot in understanding you need depth, which means you're not going to get complete players, which means you're looking for maybe two traits in one player that complement like the starting guy on the roster who's 100 years old. And you're also trying to figure out long-term projections in a much more risky way for players who will eventually take over on a quite uncertain timeline because you do not know when these players will actually finally be done.

We've seen this year over year, over year, over year. So all that being said, I think they win games. Kyle Shanahan is a huge X factor here. And he's one of our combination dynamics that we've decided upon previous to the show. And I think rightfully so. They work well together. They're good partners to each other. They win a hell of a lot of games.

They're always competitive. They have an identity. A lot of that does come from Kyle Shanahan. but a lot of that infrastructure that's behind the scenes, a really, really advanced research and development program. Also, their scouting department,

incredibly well respected across the league. And yes, this draft, we all were raising our eyebrows at it, but to my first point, it just the way that they're built right now, and for better or for worse, the way that they are built right now,

it makes it incredibly difficult to project long term with your draft picks that are already difficult to project long term. So I kind of respect that they're at least trying to go against the grain in some ways. Yeah, they just give a promotion to Quessia Dofamenta, who's also part of that front office. Look, they've always drafted pretty against the grain. They're pretty far off the consensus board. The drafts have been almost uniformly bad since one of the worst draft trades of the last decade,

which was the Trey Lance trade. And so we're getting into the portion of the draft where it's, it's, hard to separate front office from GM is Kyle just making it look better. Kyle Shanan, the coach, making Kyle Shannon the GM look better like his dad once did. Actually, the 24 draft with Pierceall and then the cornerback, Renardo Green, Dominic Pune at Guard and Mustafa at Savi. That's a good draft. So it hasn't all been bad.

I don't give you much credit for Purdy because he was the last pick of the draft. Yeah, you didn't want him either. That's more coaching and Purdy, not drafting. But they have done great work in trades. I like the Odigizua trade. I like the Trent Williams. I mean, I love, love the Trent Way Trade is one of the best trades of the century. You got Mike Evans over there.

And so I think they're in a very similar bucket, and I had them right next to Brian Gutakunz as guys who I think are elevated, certainly, by the coaching. And it's kind of tough to separate them to. So that's my pick who's coming up next. But I think ultimately, yeah, like record does matter. And there's still those stats that, like, Matt Lafleur has the best winning percentage over the first eight years of any, you know, it's like $6.50 still. And like, that's all with Brian Gutakun.

So they have been a pair. The problem with Gutakun says he's been better in the middle rounds than he has in the front, which you don't love. Like some of the early picks, Jordan Morgan, Lucas Van Ness, even Matthew Gold, and Quay Walker, like, we'll see with Matthew Gold. Like, we'll see with some of those. But then again, you did get Tucker Kraft and Jaden Reed and Romeo Dobbs and Zach Tom's, like an all pro in the middle rounds.

The defense in general, I think they've, had a less consistent idea of how to build and less successful. And they've put a lot of resources there. But they've won a lot. And I just think the process, like I know it, it like makes sense to me. I think it's very traditional. He likes the big height weight speed guys. I kind of know what I'm getting there with Brian Gutikunz.

Maybe they're not. And maybe you'll get to this given as many resources from their organization. And so they're playing a little bit with the hand behind, you know, tied behind their back. Yes, it's less of a place where you think, okay, all of my assistant coaches, because I've been able to like, you know, hand select and because I can pay them a lot of money, are going to be hugely influential on the types of picks. It's actually a building where you hear that unlike some of these other pairings, the head coach maybe does not have as much say in that entire process. Still a collaboration, but less so a dynamic where you're thinking about,

okay, it's, it, McVeigh picks two, two at well. You know what I mean? Like, you're just not, it's just not that way, right? And so I think that it's really interesting because I trust, I trust the Packers. I trust the Packers and Brian Gutikins to always have really, really solid roster. I trust them to be able to identify specific positions. Tight end is one of them. And this year, I appreciated, or excuse me, this past year, I really appreciated that they did go out of

type a little bit, not just with the receiver pick, but also. with the Parsons trade. Like, I appreciated that they were a little bit bolder than we've seen them be in past years. Even the bank signing Aaron Banks at Guard and the Nate Hobbs signings, which both turned into L's right now. Hobbs isn't even on the team anymore. But you're right.

I think they started to kind of get out of their Ted Thompson just draft and develop. It's just, you can't just do that now. But I still give them credit for a pick. I like back at the time, at the time, Jordan Love, which has really set up this entire era. All right, you are next with 13. Don't yell at me. I'm going Will, I'm going Will McLeigh and the Dallas Cowboys and the Jones is here. I wouldn't yell at you for that. We are calling it though, Will McLeigh slash Jones family because I do feel like they have a part in all this. But I hear you. I had them very close. They're only two spots away. So I had them like

14. Do you have them 13? They were the top of my second tier. So closer to like 11, 12. for me. And specifically Will McLeigh, because you said it right in your open here. To do that job with the Jones family, also in the mix, is like one of the most, has got to be one of the most complicated things to do in the NFL. And he's done it really, really well. I trust his eye for talent. I trust the way that they have their analytics and technology infrastructure behind all

of it. the prototypes and the traits that they're looking for. I trust the vision of the overall team belt. I would argue that often coaching has been what has held this roster back. And I would also argue that, yes, we saw the defense be a total disaster at the start of last season for Matt Eberfluse, but changing the coach and also moving into a much more aggressive approach with how they were going to build following the trade with, of Michael Parsons, which you could argue.

you was ownership driven, not general manager driven. So separating Will McLean from that specifically, Will McLean has to figure out a way to build the pieces back together and put everything back together. And I think not just with the Quinn and Williams move, but also with just some of the little tweaks and adjustments they made through the entirety of that defense, it's just to me really shows problem solving in real time in an awesome way.

Their scouts are extremely well respected. I know I've said that about a few of these top teams. around the league. They keep their scouts, which is also really telling to me, their scouts aren't trying to jump ship every couple of years. And also,

they know how to draft offensive linemen. That is so huge to me. They just know what they're looking for, an offensive lineman, and it's usually a guy named Tyler, but they know what they're doing. They have an identity. I appreciate that.

I just want to see if that keeps up. I mean, they are the best of the 21st century at that, you know, until the last few years. Like, we'll see how the Tyler Booker and Guyton picks turn out long term. I don't think they feel totally comfortable there. I hated the Parsons trade.

I hated the Ossa O'Deguizua trade. The Gary trade. I didn't, it was like, okay. I, it's very tough to separate these two, which is why I think they're in the middle. Because I hear you that McLeigh is making up for kind of sometimes the mess that the contract negotiators make. The George Pickens trade was great.

Ultimately, when you, I feel like they're often ping ponging back and forth. You're not exactly sure what the overall plan is. And ultimately, if you're the Jones family specifically, you had Tony Romo and Dak Prescott served into your lap. Two of the best quarterbacks literally of all time that were not taken in the first three rounds. And I don't think you've really maximized how incredible it was

that you fell into those guys because you wanted Paxton Lynch, not Dak. And Tony Romo is just like an undrafted guy. Parcells brings in them, you know. And you didn't really maximize either of those windows, and I think they've helped, you know, prop them up. And yet I had them right around here. I have Vrable and Elliot Wolf next here at 14. Elliot Wolf said this may not be a sustainable model this week,

like how they've gone about their first few years, which is a hilarious thing for a GM to say. That said, they've already delivered like a Super Bowl here. the only Belichick starters, Super Bowl appearance, sorry. The only Belichick starters left are Mike O'New, who just took a huge pay cut. Hunter Henry, Christian Barmore, Christian Gonzalez, and Marcus Jones. Free agency crop last year was great.

This year looks fun. The first draft was a fiasco after Drake May. The second one, eh. Like, Vrable doesn't have a long history of collaborating well, like he's gotten into fights, but they are going to be a team that attacks problems. I think if we're here in the middle, middle like of this draft.

Here's a team that's that's going for it and using the resources they were given. And it's worked really well so far. So to me, I feel like they shouldn't go far, fall any further. Yeah. Go back in for the listeners so I don't ramble egregiously during a, a shorter segment. I don't want to go back over all the points we made in our, in our recent episode about the AJ Brown trade. but it goes to be said that when you can't,

when you're making up for a lack of something in one phase of your team build, in this case, their draft classes, especially those Belichick ones they had to make up for, and then some so-so draft classes over the last couple of years too. When you're making up for a dearth there,

you have to overspend elsewhere. And I think strategically they've done a good job of understanding where they need to make up for things. And then that will have to flip eventually. They'll have to start really drafting well. Yeah, to Wolf's point. They will have to get a more sustainable model,

but you're also living here in the present where you have a young elite quarterback on a rookie contract trying to take advantage of it. You have number 15. I'm going Dan Morgan here. Okay. And here's the thing. You forgot about him in your initial email.

I did. I sent an email with all the candidates, and I think I wrote 31 different GMs and forgot Dan Morgan. That's on me. NFL, D. daily guest. Yes. A couple of these guys have been on a full daily guess. That's pretty cool. The thing that I have come to understand about Dan Morgan, I did not know much about him when he was

the assistant GM under Scott Fitterer. Those were some bad rosters. And then the Matt Rule era prior to that, just a disaster in terms of talent relative to the competitiveness of the rest of the league, just really bad. Right. So you're kind of similar to the Wolfrable combination. you're talking about making up for gap ears, essentially, in your entire depth chart and in your entire roster build and also making up for the lack of continuity in that building over time where when Ron Rivera and Marty Herney left, you're not only behind in terms of now you're changing out your entire coaching and scouting staff. And scouting staffs take a while to build out into continuity. you're also making up for the fact that they were so behind in terms of the technology they were using, in terms of the internal scouting databases and systems that they were using, in terms of understanding shifts and markets in the league itself and trying to,

they had to start so much further from square one than I think a lot of people realize. And that's what Dan Morgan ultimately said about doing when he finally took over. and what I liked about what he did was he did it without an ego, meaning he brought in Brandt Tillis, they hired Dave Canales, and then they brought in Eric Eager, who was formerly at pro football focus back in its glory days. And it's all these people that are filling gaps that Dan Morgan is saying,

I don't know how to do this, it's not my forte, I need to build a team where people who do understand how to build out this analytical infrastructure, or how to build out, like, the depth chart of the front office is going to be super important. Since then, I've come to appreciate just his flat out talent identification. I think he's got an eye for it. I think he's growing up, quote unquote, I don't mean to sound patronizing there because he's,

he's an adult. But I think he's growing up in the job in a really cool way where he is a total collaborator, but you can still see his identity points on the team they're building. And I think the Panthers, year over year, have gotten so much more of a, turned so much more into a complete team. And pivoted into capitalizing where they've needed to capitalize financially, but then drafting well,

relatively well behind it, could still see this receiver's room come together a little bit better. But I've really appreciated what they've done. Yeah, I had them a little lower, a handful of spots lower. They were still outscored by 70 points this last year, and they're entering year three.

They're just more like, I got to see it. Like their first draft was not good. It was Leggett and Jonathan Brooks, which was a gamble. at the time that didn't make a lot of sense and hasn't worked out because of injury, but that was the reason why people were surprised that they took them. But Mike Jackson, great move. McMillan, great move.

To me, and I love the free agent signings that they made this offseason. To me, it's just like, let's see how this year goes, and I'll evaluate them off. Yeah, I bet. I'm betting on upside for that, for sure. And I think that's where it's like, it's not just on the record. It's who we'd be comfortable. And that's why I process for you, I think, makes a lot of sense you'd have them here. I like Omar Khan.

Another NFL Daily guest. He was someone who landed higher on this list. He's the Steelers GM than I expected. I actually had him, I think, 11th on my board. And pretty good first two drafts with Joey Porter and Fatanoo and Zach Frazier, the center, Darno Washington, Nick Herbig, Mason McCormick. Those are a lot of hits for a couple drafts up front. The D.K. and Pittman trades. He inherited this great defensive line.

The secondary is all his, and we'll kind of see on that. But, you know, it's Ramsey and Bristker and Jamel Dean. I bumped him maybe a few spots just because the Nick Herbig and Darno, Washington extensions over the last couple of days are two of the most team-friendly, forward-thinking best deals I've seen. He might be even higher if it wasn't for the quarterback situation, which, you know, they bear some responsibility with. I know the coaching is part of that.

But overall, I actually think he's done an underrated job since he took over in Pittsburgh. This is actually the reason, first of all, I would have put him higher, and I would have also picked him over my pick of Dan Morgan had they not been just sort of like dragged around in kind of an embarrassing way by their quarterback situation over the last couple of years. It's a black guy. It's a black mark on everything,

which is why I think he falls to 16, if not for a pretty good resume otherwise. Yeah, because it's like I think that the Steelers, I think they're super well built in most areas, but it's so obvious to everybody, including themselves, that they are a quarterback away, but not just, but not the one that they keep chasing after, you know, not, not Rogers, not the one that they keep letting just like string them along it. And frankly, it's a, it is a organization with such history and truly

depth in, in its front office. He's got Andy Wheatel on his staff, who's awesome. Like, they, they are so respected and yet they just let this sort of happen to them. And it just, to me, it is not, It doesn't match up. The vibes do not match up in what I feel like they could, the potential they could reach versus the one they're willing to settle for. So that's where I'm, that's where I'm like, you know,

I'm on the phone talking to, talking to one of my good girlfriends about her ex and how not to go back to him. You know what I mean? Like you have so much more potential, girl, you got this, you know.

I know. They could be a win now team. They're pretty well built up front, I think on both sides of the line of the ball, which is a great place to start. And yet, I have a feeling you're going to go. This is just my guess with another NFL daily guest here at number 17.

I could be wrong. This one was tough for me because I think you would have thought that I was going to go James Gladstone here. No. Oh, really? Because I'm going to go Brandon Bean. Okay. Yeah. That is an NFL daily guest, but also not the one I was thinking of.

Interesting. Who did you think I was going to go for? Well, we'll have to see if I take him next. No, I probably will. I'll take Ryan Poles and Ben Johnson. Damn it. No, that was actually my next of my list. I scrolled down.

No, that I scrolled down too far. I got him. I got them. Damn it. No, no, it's fine. We could do them as a combination. Brandon Bean and Ryan Poles, slash Ben Johnson, 17, and 18 in whatever order you want.

Yeah. Well, okay. So, yeah, I think Ryan... Actually, that's not true because I don't want Brandon Bean. Well, I think Ryan Poll should be. Well, it's still my pick. And I think Brian, I think Ryan Poles should be here at, what, 17? I mean, Eric wrote Brandon Bean down after you drafted him.

You know what? You know what? This is a good lesson for? I think it's a really good lesson for you not interrupting me before the point has finished because if not for your interjection, I never would have realized that I totally forgot Ryan Poles. My point was not finished. So now I still have, I'm on the clock still.

So now I'm going to draft Ryan Poles and Ben Johnson. So I think to me, Ben Johnson gets a lot of the pop here as well. this is one of those where I was emailing back and forth with you last night about making sure that those two were kind of ruled as a combination. I think that Ryan Poles handled the entrance of Ben Johnson into their atmosphere incredibly well. Like I think that he is George Payton level handling this well in terms of the ability and in some cases probably the ego and then also the vision of the head coach in being an overhang GM who is understanding, truly understanding, not doing the politicking, not doing the Game of Thrones stuff, truly understanding the coach's

vision and then setting about applying for it. I like the aggressiveness that they went about resetting their offensive line. I like the moves that they made at receiver, especially in the draft. They're really going to continue to replenish the tight end position year over, year. And I trust that they can identify guys in the secondary, too. The big hole for this team has been past rush. But we sort of talked about this even when, you know, Dennis Allen first got there, even in the late stages of Eber Fluse over there, it just has been a team that's really seemed more comfortable built to cover first and to cover the rush. So I'm, I'm interested to see how they handle it. They are clearly waiting to see whether a couple of their guys take another step forward

that's been the company line out of that building. But I like what they've built. I like that they're buying in, believing in the quarterback, that they're trusting what they have. They're building around him. They're raising their floor in every single way. And I like the collaboration between coach and GM. Yeah, he gets a big bump for Ben Johnson

because it's looked better in terms of the decision making and in terms of maximizing your offensive talent. Poles deserve some credit. Also had a lot of fortune for getting Caleb Williams in the first place. with that trade. It was a great trade, the DJ Moore trade, but, you know, lucky that that you got the number one overall pick. But look, that pick got you Ben Johnson. So you get a little bit of credit for that, but ultimately 26 and 42, if we're looking at record since Poles took over. But some good trades, Jonah Jackson, sweat, Montes Sweat. The Joe Tuny trade was fantastic.

There were a lot of good moves. Bradbury and Devin Bush this offseason. I like, you know, he's gone very heavy in the secondary Ryan Poles over the years. I won't take Brandon Bean. I guess I might as well stick to my, my. board. Plus, I can tell from behind the glass. Eric doesn't want Brandon being to get distracted this high anyways. I'll go Adam Peters here. This is where, I mean, we are deep into the vibes of, like luck and vibes because I don't think the record is great. He's coming from San Francisco. He presents well. He had three second round picks and two, you know, he had five picks between the second and third rounds in his first draft.

And those picks, Jerry Newton, Mike Santerstill, Ben Sennett, Brandon Coleman, Luke McCaffrey, that does not look like what you want to start out your process. Obviously, you made a lot of good moves to have that great first season. You were really aggressive trading picks away, which is 49ers style, to get Laramie Tunsell. Free agency was younger and looks more promising this year. I just want to see it out.

And I have sort of a vague belief in him, kind of like you do in Dan Nassel. Morgan that like, okay, if it was, I feel like this will work out better long term. Yeah, I like the pick. I mean, maybe a little high based on relative to that first draft class was just, that's set, I mean, truly, that set them back. But this offseason was really strong for them. I think that they, they didn't panic on certain players, you know, that there were guys who were available that maybe would not have been the right fit, whether it was by age,

especially, you know, like at receiver, you know, you know, you just got the sense that they were being a little bit more aggressive in certain spots, but taking a little bit more of a patient approach and others. It's a huge season for them. It's a huge sort of prove it year for a lot of people over in that building. And I think that Adam Peters, for his part, has done enough to sort of have the type of off season that maybe sets the table a little bit cleaner for the rest of them. Yeah, they went for it.

It was an older roster. they kind of did what they could best to win. We'll see if it works out long term. He's probably, well, this is unfair, but everyone is in like a potential contract year and has job security questions when you're running a front office. But I do feel like he might be the first one

we've even taken where it's like, man, if this season went super sideways, you never know. It is new ownership there. But that was our pick at number 18. Polls was at 17. That was your pick. Yes, at 18.

and you've got 19. Yeah, that was a little, Peters is a little high to me. I'm going to go, I'm going to go James Gladstone here at, what is it, 19? Oh, Sabine, who almost got taken by you before. Now he's just, he's just,

well, I was not in a tear. I was like, not in a team. You have to see my notes. My notes are kind of a mess right now. But, yeah, I'm going to go, James Gladstone. This is, I admit, 100% bias coming through because I know how he works and I understand his process because of the year that I spent with the Rams Scouting Department when he was their director of pro scouting

or director of scouting and scouting strategy. And I, so I just, I understand the way that he's trying to go about doing this. I could do maybe without some of the, uh, the commentary from that building. I, you know, I say this respectfully, knowing that, You know, we have a lot of listeners over there. But I also say that, like, they, they won a lot of games in their first year altogether as a staff. They started rebuilding in totality a ton of the processes that were there in place before. And I don't think that that was any small feat to do that. They're resetting and rebuilding out part of the scouting staff as well.

They kept on some of the ones that were there last year. That was not going to be sort of a long-term thing for them to do. didn't really have a full draft off season, draft class when he first came on. So I think relative to the timeline of everything, that whole group did very, very well. I think they think about things in an extremely modern way. And perhaps the messaging and the way they explain it could, could, it's also hard being clipped out, I think, in the social media era. I think if people are going to go listen to them speak in a meeting, it would make a lot more sense than maybe what we're seeing externally.

I like the way they think about football. I appreciate the way that they think about football and that he thinks about football and about building rosters and about building complete rosters and working with the coach specifically. I think that is a duo that works as well together as any in the league and himself and Liam Cohen. And I'm drafting off of potential here because I believe in that guy and I believe in what they're doing over there.

and I will continue to pound that drum until they prove me otherwise. Yeah, basically the same area I had them. I had them like one more pick further. They get a little wild. You got to be willing to get a little wild with them. But I like the Jacoby Meyer trade. I like the Cole Van Lannin extension. Letting go, Devin Lloyd, hurt my feelings.

Dan Morgan got him, and you still forgot Dan Morgan. They spent a lot on Patrick McCarrey and Robert Hainsey on the offensive line, and it was like, eh. And then Gladstone, unlike most of the GMs, gets no credit for Liam Cohen because Liam Cohen was hired before him. And I do think kind of similar to we were talking about with the 49ers and Packers. Like how much is coaching? How much is front office? It's so early we don't really know. One guy who's had the longest resume possible to just show his work and you probably thought would go even further.

I just had to think about the talent that Chris Ballard's had over the years and not let him go any further. Because the record isn't great. And record is a GM stat. It's 70 and 78, 1 and 2 in the playoffs on a long timeline. And yet, like, the offensive line drafting and the offensive line succession plan, like, Chef's Kiss. The defense has often been pretty bad, and they've invested a lot into the defensive line without enough return.

Although the Buckner trade and who am I forgetting, Grover Stewart, like, moves were really good. They've been better about getting veterans in there versus drafting. The sauce trade was wild. It's a little crazy on defense. But for the most part, I think they've had a good infrastructure, which that's why they were able to succeed so much with even a Daniel Jones level quarterback last year. And I think if you look at their rosters over a long enough timeline, they've been solid. They haven't been great. And that's why he's getting drafted 20th. But I don't think he's quite as bad as like angry Colts fans think

either. I know. And I, I got to be honest, if you just took away the quarterback stuff, which is big. You have to factor that in. That's no excuse. But if you took away the quarterback stuff over the years, you could look at most position groups on his rosters and be like, hmm, yeah, okay. At one point, he was getting ranked so high in my old, like, GM rankings and stuff.

Yeah. Because of that. I think it's a return maybe a little bit more back to that now that. And, you know, rest in peace to Jim Ursay, but a lot of those decisions were Jim Ursay directly. meddling with the process as well, inclusive to, you know, hiring Jeff Saturday, for example,

and then the Anthony Richardson selection and all of these types of things. I think that in terms of their, the depth of their scouting and assistant GM staff and their personnel staff, it's one of the best in the league. They're almost too top heavy, similar to the Eagles where

there's just so many titles now because you can't promote people any higher. Like they just, they're so top heavy. and because they've had this continuity, people like working for Chris Ballard. They don't lose a lot of people year over year. And they're really good balance of old school scouting and new technology. And they kind of just let people be who they are in that process.

The example I could give some of the reporting I did this last year is like, yeah, they do have one of the best internal scouting system programs in the NFL. Also, just because they like it, they're also one of the teams that still has the 20 foot tall, room, 20 foot wall room covered in magnets and player profiles that they move around with a giant library ladder. So like just because they like it. And it's like it's so to me, they just blend a lot of that new school, old school. And I think they're, they're walking an interesting line there. Got to get the quarterback right. Right. They he needs to win this year. He is very much on the hot seat

after after a decade there in Indianapolis. Let's take one more break and we will wrap up with the GMs that will be the maddest after this proceedings. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart. IR. Radio. Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts, including IHart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must-have party bangers,

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It's a little freaky, Jordan. These first 20 names taken, we're my first 20. And we've been of like mine. Most of these picks have been similar, at least in terms of where you put them. Who do you have at 21? We're wrapping up with the bottom 12 front office GMs. You know, it doesn't mean you're not doing a great job.

You just, you know, there's other great people in the inner world. You made it here. You're doing fine. Yeah. Okay, I have basically one singular statement to make about this next pick. I'm going with Andrew Barry here. I'm going with Andrew Barry as someone who has sunk down pretty much to the lower tier in my mind of what this exercise normally would be, and especially two years ago and previously.

because of the decision that he helped facilitate at the very least at quarterback, the contract for Deshawn Watson in the midst of sexual assaults, very credible sexual assault allegations that led to a league investigation and a suspension after the league investigated. The turnover continually on the coaching staff, the talk about how this is a really advanced analytical group, but we never quite saw what that would apply to. And it certainly didn't apply to wins over the years.

I put him here now because over the last two seasons, I think we are starting to see a little bit more of who Andrew Barry, A, wants to be, and B, is going to be as a general manager. The draft classes, the last two, and I'm counting this recent one, I liked this recent one a lot. The last two draft classes in my mind have been outstanding. He also has finally done the thing that he has talked about as an analytically minded practice for years, which is shed a high asset player who is maybe getting a little bit older,

leaning into more of the rebuild that the rest of their roster is, and turning that player into more pick capital as they continue to digge themselves out of the absolute deadweight hole of their own creation that was bringing in Deshaun Watson. So he is the architect of that mistake and all of the ripple effect of it. He also, I think, in especially the last two years, has done a very nice job of maybe finally starting to see daylight on the other side. And I appreciate that type of process-driven action. And I'm drafting on potential here as well.

Look, they won 11 games twice in the Andrew Berry era. My issue is more even if you take out Watson, which I don't. I have them as a bottom, two or three GM. The biggest problems or of their own creation, like the offensive line last year, having some of the worst contracts in the league because of their offensive line. Watson plays into that because how they had to move around money and everything. And then I'm not giving him too much credit until the draft classes, which I agree look great on paper and I like the process,

and which is why he could get taken this high because of process. They still have to just do it. The point is to win games. So I had a much lower, like I said, like 30. I just don't think he's a bottom of the league GM. Fair. Brandon Bean is next on my list. It's hard to separate his vision from McDermott.

He's done a great job building the offensive line, which I think he deserves credit when you talk about the lack of weapons for Josh Allen on the outside. I mean, he has had weapons in terms of James Cook and that offensive line. So the drafts have been uneven out at best, I would say, overall, flat out poor the last few years, the best player for. from their last three drafts is probably Dalton Kincaid. It's not great.

Jordan Poyer and Micahide are probably the defining moves of this entire run. And that was like in their first off season. And that was a lot of McDermott. So it's tough to, you know, separate things out. The DJ Moore trade was gross to me. But I will give him some credit for doing all the winning. And he likes a solid player. I just think he likes solidly.

Like I feel like he aims for B minuses a lot. that's what he gets. Also got the quarterback, you know, also, but, you know, then probably I think, in my opinion, was a little too stubborn about developing out that receiving core around the quarterback or not doing so over the years. And people, we, we love to see everything now, and obviously is one of the best players we've ever seen in the NFL, but Josh Allen was a risk at that pick. and he was a drafting for a potential kind of player, and they got it right. And you can't, that's not enough to just get that right

at this point in the NFL with so many good quarterbacks and so many good teams and coaches who give you an advantage schematically. That's not enough. You have to do more and constantly do more. So very interested to see how this year goes in Buffalo. Yeah, I definitely took away points from him just for the palace intrigue and the grossness of it. of it all.

Yeah, we're on vibes. We're on vibes. Yeah. The rosters, ultimately have been pretty solid over the year. So we're punishing him appropriately, I think. But would have felt bad if he went any further. You have 23 now.

I am punishing and also rewarding, I think, appropriately. The first season and a half of this guy, John SpyTech, who I'm going to put next, in part because what a disaster of a first year. you know, you talk about palace intrigue, but there's a lot of push and pull that can happen when you come into a job as a first year GM and the head coach that you're paired with is an absolute legend. And navigating that coach's vision while also trying to understand what your own is,

while also trying to put together a roster that had really just been very talent poor for the last couple of seasons. Really, really complicated needle to thread. And it didn't work, which is why we're seeing kind of the after, why we saw the after effects of what we did. Pete Carroll getting fired. And a lot of the people that he brought in are now no longer in the building. I believe in John Spitech's background, first of all, in Denver, but then also with, Jason liked for ever and working with that draft and develop type of internal mentality. I would say John Spitech wants to take a little bit more of a modern approach to what their

internal procedure looks like and their internal scouting system and data and all those types of things. And I think he had a hell of an off season. I think the Raiders had a hell of an off season. I think that for the first time, really, since he got there a couple of years ago, you can actually see what this team is trying to accomplish. accomplish and what they're going for, it really helps to have the number one overall pick. Getting a step forward out of last year's draft class, which we're not really sure whether they

will take a step forward or not, but they could. If they do, then I think we're looking at the first two years of this, specifically John Spitech tenure in a different lens than maybe we were at the end of last season. Yeah, I have a weird amount of confidence in him. Stephen, the trainer, is going to be mad that Spitech even went this low. the Raiders and their fans are so confident in this offseason. But one thing I've also learned is

my evaluations of which off seasons are good or not are meaningless. It is very hard to predict. And so if they end up actually having a bad offseason, which is very possible, then it's 0 for 2 here for SpyTech. But I

like that pick there. All right, it's time for the offseason ride-along presented by Toyota. I'm feeling bad for just the situation that Duke Tobin inherited, so I'm just going to go Duke Tobin. The drafts have been pretty bad since Jamar Chase, but I am going to give him credit for the mid of last decade when he was doing so much better in terms of drafting. And I just think he's playing with a lot against him.

The offensive overhaul in terms of the offensive line, like, did they get it to average? Is that enough? Obviously, the defensive problems over the last few years have been pretty rough. they wait a little too long to address something that's a big problem in Cincinnati. Yeah, fair. All of that's fair. And then they also still, and this is more of an ownership problem, but still, they have not really,

relative to the rest of the league staffed out, their different talent ID department, scouting, personnel, those types of things. Oh, yeah. That's not happening. That's almost weirdly why I give Tobin, like, credit for trying to make it work despite all that. But I hear you. That's totally true. I also think maybe to be a little bit fair to.

it gets really complicated when you're trying to serve the franchise quarterback in totality. Like it's pretty clear, all the things that they've done, pretty, pretty clear about, you know, wanting to make sure that Joe Burrow is happy. Now, on the other hand, you know, some of the things that come out of that building about players being unhappy, Trey Hendrickson and the way that his process went down, the things that he was unhappy with, just from an interpersonal perspective, you know, those kinds of things tend to knock someone down a little bit more too. But I think that's a tough spot to be in.

You're not going to get resources to do the things you want to do. And also, you're trying to keep one of the best quarterbacks in football happy enough to continue to lead your team. That's also a difficult line to walk. And that was the off-season ride-along presented by Toyota. Because when people are the destination, your ride is important. Learn more at Toyota.com and find the vehicle that fits your people. I'm feeling kind of bad for the combination of John Harbaugh and Joe Shane.

They are pretty low on this list. I actually, I might put Harbaugh's name first here, honestly, because... That's how I wrote it to it. Yeah, because Joe Shane, who just got extended by the Giants and Harbaugh, has sort of taken on what seems to be a little bit more of a facilitator, role with John Harbaugh coming in. And listen, when you hire a coach like that, and we talked about it at length, so I don't have to get too much into it now. When you hire a coach like that, yes, the expectation is that that is what is going to happen. He is going to come in and no matter

how much posturing you put out through the media, that guy is going to be in charge. And so what I think the Giants did really well this offseason was executing that vision and going through and trying to build with whatever they could, as much as they could, with the resources they had, build this into more of a John Harbaugh look-like team, right? And so if that was the plan in the process, I think David so far achieved that process, and so I would put them here. Yeah, my question for Harbaugh is more just like, how much better will it be? Because it's new. We've seen them kind of in that Ravens model where it is very front office focused. For the most part, I like, you know, their draft in what they did this off season.

I mean, it didn't blow me away or anything. It's not like Joe Sheen hasn't had some good draft picks, but he had a lot of them, and I think the self-scouting was poor. So I'm with you. I put Harbaugh first there, which probably bumps them up a couple spots. I had them lower, but whatever.

John Eric Sullivan is next on my list. Hey, they have a plan. Not about this year. That's the easy part. I love what they've done. I like the Mliquilis move. The pick. We'll see, but who knows.

It's hard to give them too much credit when they're just, you know, inheriting stuff from the previous regime, but everything they've done process-wise so far has made sense to me. A year from now, I cannot wait. I just, a lot can happen. I might get unlucky here in terms of my take and standing ten toes down on my take of what they're doing, which is following, again, the Sprint Rebuild blueprint

that I've talked way too much about at this point. they've done everything the way that they need to to correctly adhere to a plan like that. A lot of things could happen. People can get injured. Things, you know, whatever is going to happen. But in terms of identifying their plan, sticking to their plan, I really, really like it. And I think also that there's some really underrated players over on that roster that more people will be talking about this year if they are at all going to watch Dolphins games, which who knows. But like.

I will. I will. I will. I volunteered for a lot of them last year because I really thought they were fun to watch last year in a lot of ways. So, yeah, I like what they're doing. I don't mind it at all. I actually put him lower because he's a first year guy, you know? Like, I put the first year guys lower.

So because I, relative to like actually following through on a plan, like, I love it. Yeah. I had a handful of spots over the Harbaugh. Like I actually kind of trust this front office who's been doing it this. way more than Harbaugh necessarily just because Harbaugh, he's been in the league a long time. He's a coach. But again, we're at the final sort of speed round here of the last six.

So we're off vibes, as we said. All right, you're at 27. Yeah, I'm going Darren Moogie here. A lot of vibes-based things. I like his background. I think that he comes from a solid background, obviously in Denver. And I think that this is a long-term vision that they're so far following the steps

pretty well. trading off of, you know, high profile players to recoup draft capital, relifting the floor in a lot of ways, not only to walk the line of compromising with your head coach, who you are, you know, maybe not sure about, but certainly not trying to just move out of the building. Like anyone wants something to work, right? That's the best case scenarios of something really does end up working

with the coach that they've invested in and hired. So raising the floor in some ways with some of the cash spending that they went out and did in free agency, but really stockpiling a lot of these picks to specifically build, rebuild this roster in a much more slower and methodical build, but one that I think the jets really, really need. And to really recreate some of that infrastructure is super important after all of the turnover that they've had over the last couple of years. Yeah, on paper, his moves have been pretty solid. The drafts, you know, this one looks promising, we'll see. but, you know, Armand Membue and Mason Taylor as their first two.

They had a lot of good trades around the margins, A.D. Mitchell, Harrison Phillips, Juan Briggs, Jarvis Brownlee. I like those moves where he's just, like, slightly upgrading the roster. He would have probably been higher for me, if not for just one withering thing that always stuck in my set, in my head from someone in the league about him where they said, oh, he's not a guy. I was like, oh, he's not a guy. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. Holy cow. But it's so far on paper, I think it's been pretty good. I'm going to text you offline and figure out who said that one.

That's crazy. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. It's stuck in my head so much. I had to put it in my notes. Look, we're getting into it. I know.

Saints fans are going to be mad. And yet, if I go by my board, it's awesome. in Fort next. This is so, this is rough. You know what? My heart wants what it wants here. I will take Mickey off the board. Mickey Loomis and Jeff Ireland,

if we were doing a slash, I think is as active an assistant GM as there is in the league. Maybe is more of the GM. I mean, look, since John Payton's gone, they've won seven games, nine games, five games,

in six games. That's pretty rough. They're always looking at the offensive line. look, the banks pick last year, the banks and Fuaga combination could be really spicy. You kind of know what you're getting. They like the big strong, like end players.

Chase Young was a fine recently. They had that 17 draft class, but the drafts, you know, it's been a while just process-wise. All the trading up for players and never trading back kills me. But that's why he's at 28, and I did find some positives.

I think the ceiling of this team, it's very New Orleans. The ceiling of this team is actually quite high, especially on offense. It is a boom or bust roster. But if you look at the line and the talent and just what they've put together

the last couple of years, you can't see A-Vision. I like how in your response to yourself about you picking Mickey Lumen, you also gave yourself a little bit of a compliment. You're like, I did find some positive in there too, also, by the way.

Well, I'm saying every, right now we're on like the bottom five. And so it's like you can find positives for sure. Yeah, I'm going to go Ian Cunningham and Matt Ryan. Really the majority reason why I pick this is I really trust Ian Cunningham's background. He was the number two to Ryan Poles for their tenure together in Chicago. But before that, he worked for the Eagles and before that he worked for the Ravens. And I think that the combination of himself and Matt Ryan is really promising. Matt Ryan, you know, I heard some chat. or right when he was taking that job, which seemed to be custom built for him,

about how he was one of the rare people who could go in and tell the owner that he was wrong about making a certain decision or could speak up and the owner was maybe empowered to speak to his boss, essentially, in ways that maybe other people in that building in previous years had not felt. And it's not it's, Arthur Blank has a great reputation as like a genuinely, you know, we think billioners are bad, obviously, but has a genuine reputation of being a pretty solid guy. Right. And, but, but still the power dynamics at play are crazy when it comes to,

uh, some disagreeing with an owner who does have a strong opinion about one thing or another, um, in that building. And so I like, I like the potential here. And like I said, I trust Ian Cunningham's background. I trust the potential. And so I'm fine drafting on potential. here. Yeah, I had them 31. I had Andrew Barry 32. Just partly because there's no track record with these two to base it on. And I'm just a little confused about what's going on there. The moves that they made this offseason are confusing to me. Like this was a good, this was a pretty good team last year. And yeah, they're adding a lot of a lot of people.

We'll see how it plays out. Some of the trades, like a row, row even that trade seemed weird to me. The two, we'll see. It's fine. They're taking a step back. Is it too much, Matt Ryan? I don't know if I love that. I hope it's more Ian Cunningham, but Matt Ryan's at the top of the list. We're splitting hairs here. I have, I guess I'll go Austin Fort here.

The drafts have been solid enough. They haven't been great, but they haven't been bad. Paris Johnson, you know, you could pick Nits about that Will Anderson trade if you look back now, but they moved around the board. You know, Paris Johnson, Garrett Wilson, Michael, Michael Wilson, rather, and Garrett Williams. The next year they had that extra. first and they didn't really make good use of it with Darius Robinson and Max Melton.

You inherited Kyler Murray's contract like six months before you got hired, which was tricky, but you also hired Jonathan Gannon also in already threw him overboard. Another front office that's playing in a difficult situation. Just look at the franchise's record since the same name has been owning that team throughout. And so that needs to be considered. but that's also why he fell this far. All of it makes sense. My pick at 31, I'm making in part because I really do want to make this pick,

but also because I'd like to make a point. So I'm using him almost as a vessel to make a point that I'd like to make. Nolan Teasley, I'm putting at 31. I know he's been on the job for two days. This is the thing. I trust his background. I really do. I trust how long he's worked with John Schneider,

are number two on this list. I trust the vision there. I really, I think that he is a lot more analytically minded than the team is like selling right now because they're trying to overcorrect from the perception that Cuezzi Adolfo Menzo was too analytically minded. Nolan Teasley is as well. He helped build the scouting system that Seattle uses. The other point that I wanted to make is I loved you, you and Patrick's Borgesk, or

a Brazinski episode, like, be a Brasinski. It was so fun to listen to you guys, like, roll with that bit. I will also say the Vikings in totality are built in a way where the same people have been making the same decisions for a long number of years, including when Quasito Fomenza was the GM there and was not able to bring in an entire staff of people around him to build through whatever that vision may have been. Yes, criticize the draft picks, all of that stuff. Fine. That's fair. But Nolan Teasley, I am very curious to see who is actually going to come with. him if anybody because you're basically saying you're changing the narrative around a

GM candidate optically and you're saying but actually the entire infrastructure that got us into this mess in the first place is still the same so I'm just very curious about how this goes and I buy Nolan Teasley as a GM I also think that he'll work really well with Kevin O'Connell we'll have to see obviously but I am fascinated by that dynamic because Because again, there was a different narrative attached to this candidate and this hire. But the infrastructure of the team and the organization and the people in the front office has stayed the same. So very, very curious about all of that.

Yeah, it could be a good situation for a GM to walk into with an established head coach there and established front office. He just got to fit in, you know, both him and Michael Gorganzi, who's 30, yeah, who's, yeah. Who's been there the whole time. Brizinski. And so, yes, the man who succeeded Chad Brinker running the Titans is Mike Borgonzi. You know, these guys at the end, for the most part, just got punished because we don't know their track record yet. Even the moves that they made this offseason, we want to see if they look as good on the field as on paper. I think their offseason for the most part of the Titans has

made sense. Like, it's been a solid offseason. Borgonzi comes from the chief's tree. And yeah, he is the latest winner of a Titans power struggle. And it's not his fault. That's the that's how the organization has gone for a while. And I think it really points out, looking at Loomis and Austin Ford at the end here, and Muzi and some of the other guys, this exercise more than any of the others. I don't really believe there's that big of a difference

between most of the front offices. They do things in a different way, but I'm saying in the results of what they get in terms of acquiring talent, I think comparing it to even coaches, which is the most passive thing we're going to rank, the rest of them is all just players, which is, they're the ones on the field. They're active. I think the difference of great coaches is less than people make it out to be. I really think

that's the case with front offices, that it's very situational. And like, there's not as big a difference. To me, at least, I'm just speaking for myself, not for you, between spot 12 and spot 30 on this list, then there would be on the other list. I'd say similar to a lot of people, a lot of these guys who do build out their first round draft boards every year, once you hit 15 to 17, there is pretty much a big pool of people who still have to be determined, right, or that are sort of similar in a lot of ways. Where I do very much disagree with you is the edge and advantage with the coach, because more so than at GM, the coach's language and the coach's process is ingrained throughout every piece of the building, far more so other than perhaps a Howie Roseman, that that coach is really the entire like,

a roadmap, basically, for the building. And certainly if he's a talented, a talented coach, so I do think the influence and the advantage can be greater. And similarly, the failure can be greater too. So I do think that's a difference maker. Yeah, I was trying to, and I spoke poorly, do it on a sliding scale where the coach would be somewhere in between the GM and the players. And it's crazy. I just think people don't, they're uncomfortable with the idea that luck determines so much of everything in life, certainly of a game where the ball isn't round. Like just so much of it is luck.

And to me, the players, so much of their career is based on luck too. But the sliding scale to me is the GMs, I think you can make the argument, the majority of their careers. Like, if I'm weighing all the factors, I think luck is the most important one, unfortunately. It's kind of like professional gamblers. They try to control the 30% that they can control, and that's the best that you can control.

And most of the rest, it's like just put the chips out and hope they go well. And hopefully people enjoyed our NFL Daily 32. You know what? Some probably did, and some probably didn't, and we will hear about it. Hopefully. That means people can't.

We had fun doing it. I like doing these. I do too, because it just gets you thinking about how the whole week is. How are you going to rage bait people on social media this time, Greg? I won't. I will try not to. We will see you on Monday. It'll be a Shook show.

We're always doing the news, and like I mentioned, a couple contracts. Hit that music. Thank you, Jordan. Great to have you back this week for two really strong episodes. episodes, the GM one. Everyone, go check out our Garrett, AJ Brown. Inside the Garrett trade episode. It was really proud of all the episodes this week. So hopefully you guys liked them too. And we'll be back with another big week for shows next week on NFL Daily. We'll see you then. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.