NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Preseason Risers, Fallers and the Future of NFL Defense

Episode Date: August 23, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Jourdan Rodrigue and Cody Alexander tell you what opinions have changed heading into the new season. The trio talks about the Commanders defense (03:25) and offense (09:15), the Bills defense (12:10), the 49ers defense (16:30) and more. Plus, a deep dive into the evolution NFL defenses across the league (21:19) and their favorite defense to watch (28:00). Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to NFL Daily where we don't know anything about the Sabin Cover 7 man-match defense. But our guest does. I'm Greg Rosenthal, and I'm here with Jordan Roderig, and I'm in the Chris Wesleying podcast studio, and I'm with one of Jordan's friends

and one of the biggest ball-knowers in the business, Cody Alexander, who runs match quarters on the substack. And, yes, that was like one of your recent posts was about the Sabin cover seven man-match defense, and we're going to break that down on this show for 150 minutes. It might take a little longer. Yeah, right.

Okay. We're not going to do that, actually, because I wouldn't know what you're talking about. Listeners do not turn off the show. Yeah. And Cody also hosts the Let's Talk Ball podcast, but everyone check them out on Substack where he has built up a big following,

top 10 in sports on Substack. And he's been building this up for almost a decade, getting into the nitty-gritty of defensive play. So what we're going to do this show. First, we're going to talk a little bit, like, big picture about anything we've seen over the last month, just quickly go around and talk about anything we feel differently about. And I'm sure for you, Cody, it'll be maybe on the defensive side of the ball, but just some rapid fire, what we feel differently about after watching some preseason and everything.

But then I think we're going to get into a bigger picture conversation about what's next with defense. And Cody, it sounds like you're the type of guy that people like Jordan and maybe coaches and And just fans who want to know more, they go to you to understand how defenses are actually run. So instead of being the guy behind the scenes, we wanted to have you on the show. We yanked him out from behind the curtain.

Instead of like stealing your information like Jordan normally does, we're going to have you here and you can just give it to our list. Much appreciated. Yeah, we're excited to have you, Cody. Obviously, you've taught me a lot about defense over the years. You've taught a lot of people a lot about defense over the years.

And I think what's nice is we're highlighting defense today. the time everybody fireflies toward offense Cody I know you have a lot of experience with that you explain defense to people who need to know how defenses affect offense right yeah the thing about defense is that it's not just tackle somebody right or cover somebody you know it's there's a lot to it and it's really an orchestration and and a lot of because it's reactionary in where the offense is always producing something the defense has to react to it and it's setting you up for success. So it's much more complicated than just tackle somebody. But you dumb it down for me and I love that. And it's amazing. And Cody's a great example. We were talking before the show of, you know,

you were a coach and a teacher. And eventually after doing this already for six years, you were able to turn it into your full-time job. And it's just defense on the substance. There is no offense. Occasionally people, they'll try to get in the comments, talk about it. People kick them off the site now. I'm making that part up, but there's a lot of pressure on us. I found out as we were talking that Cody flew out in part for this show, which Jordan, bad job by you not telling me that. I mean, that's too much responsibility. So we got to make it count. Everyone go check out Matt's quarters. And why don't we start with you, Cody, something that you have noticed, whether it's a scheme, because I don't know where you're going with this, or a player or something

that you've noticed over the last month? Maybe you kind of feel a little differently about that you've learned over the last month. I look at there's so much hype around the Washington commander and a lot of it focuses on the offensive side. But I have a big pause on the defensive side and just the track record of that staff just in general of now we're looking at this.

This defensive line is a little bit scary to me. adding into the season. And I, you look at it with, you know, their big pickup was Kenlaw in the off season. He doesn't really want to have much to do with the run game. Okay.

So there's a pattern here, right? Like we have Bonn Miller and Bobby Wagner that are both like, I mean, they're pushing, you know, late 30s, right?

Like are we really relying on this for a whole year? This is a game of attrition. And then, you know, Will Harris had one good year, right? From the Saints, they get Latimore.

Latimore's never finished the season. So you start really looking at this. It's like, Wise, Farrell, Armstrong, where's the pass rush coming from? Where's the run-stopping ability? You can't have Bobby Wagner having 200 tackles, right? Frankie Louvo's great, but you start looking at all these pieces

and it's a little scary heading into the season. And do you think they could make up schematically maybe what they lack in just beef? Because it's a surprising way to attack their off-season after, you know, getting blown out by the Eagles.

I know it was amazing that they got into that game, but that's a team you're going to obviously have to face twice every season. Schematically, they don't know. There's not a lot of answers from it. I mean, this is a defense that wants to play man coverage primarily. They, if you even go back to Dallas days, I mean, Dallas is problem right now, fitting to run has a lot to do with the way that they developed that, the Dan Quint

system there. And he's trying to mirror that there. And I just don't know when you start really looking at it, you know, at a player by player level, is this going to work or are they going to have the same problems? like are you going to essentially have to score 35 points a game in order to win some of these games? And I don't know if that's necessarily sustainable. And they paid Johnny Newton, first of all, is getting some pop in training camp and he was injured last year. And obviously, they really hope that he takes a step forward in order to actually shore up that interior

defensive line. At the same time, they paid Javan Kinlaw more money than a lot of us expected him to get. And there was familiarity with Adam Peters, who obviously knew Kinla very well from back when he was in San Francisco. But to your point, you can't expect Bobby Wagner to just have to hold the line against the run. And he's still a great run defender. It's still one of the hardest hitters, best tacklers in football. But you also watched the way that they deployed Frankie Louvo a lot last year.

It was almost like, where's our emergency? Is it pressure or is it coverage or is it run, stop helping in run support? Like he had to play so many positions. He was great at him, one of our favorite players on NFL Daily. But I guess I would say all the optimism and that,

that came out about the way that they were starting to try to reinforce this defense, I feel a little bit worried about them heading into this season. I feel like we hadn't done enough commander's talk on this show and then this was a big week for it because they made it into our most interesting offenses. And this is our defensive talk.

And when I used to do fantasy football, I used to say like, oh, that's an everybody in the pool game because their defense isn't very good, but their offense is amazing. I feel like there could be, There could be a lot of like everybody in the pool for fantasy days and Commander's game because games are going to be in the 30s. While I'm thinking fantasy, I'll just throw out a quick one.

Bachel Tootin, weirdly, I hadn't got a chance to watch his tape until after we did the recap show last Sunday. Fourth round pick for the Jaguars at Running Back. I feel differently just about him. I thought his tape in the preseason looks different and better than it looked in college. and his ability to cut while moving forward with the power and aggression that he has is something. And, like, that would be the one guy and we had the fantasy show earlier in the week

that I would have him in every league because I think they will find a way to get him on the field because I think he's their best running back probably right now. I think he's probably... And it makes more sense maybe Tank Biggsie. Biggsby is the guy that gets traded. There's been some whispers that someone gets traded there. Maybe Bigsby goes, E.T.N. stays as a nice compliment.

and sometimes you find these running backs in the second day, the second third day of the draft and they come into the league and they're immediately like top 12 to 15 runners. I don't know if that's, I'm not, but I think more than any other position, you can see that in the preseason. He looks freaking amazing. Yeah.

I feel different. He runs hard. His success rate is leading, it's a preseason. I don't want to get crazy about success rate just yet, but a success rate is leading other running backs in the NFL in terms of per play. And I actually kind of have a fun basal-tooting story because James Gladstone, the GM for the Jaguars, man, he really pissed off his old boss and mentor Les Sneed,

because that was a player the Rams had very, very high on their draft board. And James Gladstone also had him very, very high on their draft board. Liam Cohen was concerned at the start of camp about how many times Basial Tutin had put the ball on the ground, aka fumbled the ball in practice. But he seems to have been cleaning that up in a big way. And if he can keep it clean, he's going to be one of their lead players. in no time. And I think he's just a really great fit

for what they want to do with their run game. Yeah. He had a major fumbling problem in college and that will get you benched. So that was like a big a big reason why he fell in the draft after, you know, the 40 time

that he put up. I don't know. You can just see it. The way he moves is rare. Jordan, give us one thing that you feel differently about. I have another commander's one. Oh.

Actually, it's about Debo Samuel. I kind of really, I've really felt bad for this guy at the start. of training camp because it didn't think like, seem like optically anything could go right for him. Obviously, he was getting a lot of memes made out of him and a lot of really unfair. I think criticism. People were making a thing out of the size he looked at least when they opened training camp. And then the Terry McLaren situation is sort of lurking in the distance

of that entire offense in general. I was not one of the body shamers, but I did also still wonder how Debo would fit into this offense. So now I feel differently about. about that. And part of it was I got to go up to Commander's camp and see everything he's doing in that offense. He has clicked with Jaden Daniels. And he is doing like literally a little bit of everything in that passing game, including deep down the field, including the intermediate and long

range where he looks smooth. He looks light on his feet. He looks fresh. He has speed. And Jaden Daniels hit him on a couple of deep throws down the field. They seem to be really building that chemistry. If they can just get Terry McLaren back, I feel a lot better about what Debo's fit and role actually is in this defense, Cody. Yeah, to me, I think... Actually, no, you're not allowed to talk about offense.

I even said defense as I was looking at Cody. Oh, my God. It's like Pavlovian at this time. But I feel a lot better about what Debo's going to do in this offense. Well, I think last year, just collectively, everybody kind of bullied Cliff Kingsbury into moving receivers around. He finally grew out of the air raid structure. sure of like, oh, you know, McLaren can only play on the left. And I think what you saw was

within that explosion of the offense last year. But then now you're adding somebody that he still wants to run those perimeter screens. It's, you know, the one thing that Kingsbury is not, the air raid gets a lot of the, kind of a lot of people think that it's just this deep choice, right? Because a lot of people think of like RG3 and RBRiles. That's not really the air raid. This is really an intermediate based offense. They really want to throw it, but they want to throw it into space. And this is a guy that is essentially, if you throw it to him in space, literally people are going to bounce off of him. So I think it's a good fit, especially when you have somebody that can stretch the field and then you have somebody that can come underneath

and that intermediate with Debo and move him around. I think that that offense can be really explosive. I'm a big first play guy. Like, let's see what they run for their first play in different situations that they're almost like. I try to like pretend that it's making some grand statement of what the season's going to be like, what they think. And it would, to me, it was very telling. that the first play that they had out there with Jaden Daniels and Debo Samuel on the field together was an end round to Debo. Yeah.

Like, okay. This is what that's going to be. This is what you want to do. And I love that you're just showing that to us. I'm going to throw out the Bills defense. Okay, I'm trying not to overreact to the preseason because I know it's a lot of backups out there. But I'm curious what you think of this.

And I was texting with our friend, Ollie Connolly about this too. and the combination of how freaked out Sean McDermott seems on hard knocks. Like, you can actually see he is not happy with where their defense is. How freaked out he seems on the sidelines. I was talking with Ollie,

so I don't want to take credit for it, like about some of the things he's doing in the preseason, like trying things that aren't working. And then thinking about this group in general, he's not thrilled with the safety position overall. Yeah. he is just calling them out and you look at their secondary

and you lose Maxwell Harrison early. He's not anywhere close to being back. He was their first round pick at cornerback. So cornerback is very thin. You're not feeling great in general about safety which was like the bedrock of this defense for so long. And I'm finding myself and I apologize to our producer Eric,

the Big Bill's fan. I'm finding myself. Actually, I am I am a little more worried about the Bill's defense in general maybe I shouldn't be coming out of training camp because of how tight and McDermott seems about it all. You can speak to kind of, Cody, what they want to do defensively

and maybe where you think that they need some work this year. This has been, really, since McDermott's been there, it has been one of the teams that consistently ran from a too high shell, you know, and was running actually split field coverage. So they were actually running like cover two quarters. They were doing that.

Last year, you could really tell that they did not trust those safeties. And so they started getting into more situations where they're having to spin down, put guys in that place. You know, you look at a guy like a Colbishop, they really want him to start. They really want him to play. So they played a little bit more covered three because that's what he came from in Utah. You can see that like there's been times where he's lost in those deep coverages where he doesn't know where to get his eyes, how to transition from there.

And so you can see that they don't really like outside of Christian Benford, they're not really comfortable with a lot of those guys. And I think that that's where, like, the Maxwell Harrison kid, played some of the most zone. Kentucky played a lot of zone coverage. So they got a long zone corner, fits the mold of what they wanted. He's not going to be there. So now you're having to kind of reshuffle everybody.

And so you're right that, you know, you're relying on a Joey Bosa and a bunch of, you know, recent draft picks to kind of go in there and pass rush over coverage, right? Like fix the coverage by sacking the quarterback. and that's going to be one of the interesting elements for the bills. One of the things that really concerns the bills, and I think when you hear them talk about this player and how much he'll contribute to them

when he finally gets on the field is Michael Hoyt, who emerged into an extra rusher, but somebody who really made that pass rush, that five-man rush, their cheetah package, they called it in Los Angeles, come to life, and they were able to manufacture and design all types of pressure using him. He will not be on the first. field for the first part of the season because of a suspension. And I have to think that through a wrench

into some of their plans of how they really want this defense to build out this year. And I've read in the athletic, like, they weren't, they're like, could they just cut Larry Yogan Joby? Like, is he even going to make the team? And team sign Larry Yogan Joby. And then they get excited and he has a couple of high weeks and they get sick of them because maybe he's not as good in run defense. And Joe Bessalia of the athletic, like, was speculating. He's also suspended for the, Yeah. He's like, I'm not sure he's totally going to make the team. Like, so that worries me.

They have like their second round pick, T.J. Sanders up front. But in general, I mean, County on Trudevius, like, County on Dane Jack. I'm just like a little freaked out. And then there's just, this is more of a vibes-based thing, too. I was just like, it's just hard, I think it's this hard mental. I think it's hard to stay at that level year after a year. And we've seen it. The Bills actually have been a more inconsistent team in the regular season.

and Bill's fans know this over the last four or five years than you would expect. They go through these dips and can they rev it back up and be that high level of an offense? I think they'll need to be to make up for the defense not being as good or needing to take some time. All right. Give me one more thing, Cody, that's changed your mind over last month. I think, too, there's so much hype. I go back to another team in the NFC that has a ton of hype on, you know, hey, this is a potential Super Bowl winning team. And then you really look at it.

Like, let's really look at the roster here. And again, I think the 49ers have some major issues on defense. And yeah, I love Sala. They're going to run it back. They're going to get back into what they were doing. He's essentially tried to find Robert Sala and a bunch of different people to get them to run. That's so true. Robert Sala's defense.

So he went out and actually, it's kind of when the Eagles finally just went out and said, how much money do you want to be our defense coordinator, Vic Fangio? I mean, Domeko did a good job of it. But he also was there in the glory days of that developmental staff under Robert Sala. Like, he did a great job. But after D'Amico, what you're saying is true. They've basically gone like, okay, what are some code words that you know that can make us hire you that, because you know this defense?

Well, and that's the thing is like you can see the frustration. Like the Wilkeshire was really odd. They didn't have any, didn't really know. Then you just go with Swarrensen who's, you know, hey, you've been around. You're really a special team guy. But hey, can you call the defense? Here's a playbook. And then I think you go and look at it.

And then you have a bunch of. Yeah, you have a first round draft pick in Michael William, right? But you start looking at this, this defensive line. This is a defensive line driven scheme because it's a wide nine scheme. They don't do a lot in the back end. They really need this defensive line to go. This used to be the best defensive line. They had, what, eight guys that were drafted in the first round?

Now those guys are gone. So you have a kind of a bunch of unknowns or a bunch of guys that are kind of like rotational players and then, oh, hey, we have Nick Bosa. So you're really relying on one player. Anytime I just feel like in the NFL, when you're, especially on a defense, if you're relying on one guy, you're in trouble. And when you're relying on a draft class

to save a major problem, almost never works. And so that's basically what they decided to do. Michael Williams, first round, Alfred Collins, second round, C.J. West, fourth round. That all sounds good at the time. Fast forward. Sounds good for 2026. Right.

Fast forward. Michael Williams, I think they'll be happy with him so far, but he's missed a couple weeks. he's going to be back on the field. Alfred Collins doesn't sound like they are happy with. He might not be playable. And C.J. West, like a fourth round defensive tackle. So asking them all to do a lot is maybe too much.

The thing about Robert Sala as well is that this has always been a front that he can play. The coverage is behind them that they like to play because they don't have to manufacture pressure. They like to rush the way that they rush with the guys that they have up front. Robert Sala has been one of the best when he's coached to defense in doing that. It's not that he can't blitz. It's not that he can't design some of these things. We're seeing like the Jesse Minters, the Mike McDonald's, do, but he has preferred in the past to stay,

my guys are going to beat you up front. And then our DBs can just, and our linebacker can just run wild and do whatever they do behind. Now, this is not going to be a front, in my opinion, that's going to be able to do that. So he's going to have to change. We can maybe get into this in our next segment about what the future of that is going to have to look like.

But Cody, I think he's going to have to change his stripes a little bit in order to get the most out of this group. in the short term. Yeah, and I think it is even reflective in the secondary. I mean, they're wanting, you know, kind of, we're relying on

Jason Pennick to be, you know, hafunga. And that's going to be a problem, I think, going forward. And, you know, the other thing, too, is like, you know, Greenlaw really hasn't played that much, but they've really missed that guy next to Fred Werner, to let him kind of be the alien that he is and just go,

go make plays. And they just don't have that right now. And they're hopeful that De Winters will be that guy who, a sixth round pick from two years ago that you haven't heard too much about and hasn't played that well when he has played, that they believe the light has turned on. And he is one of those guys. And this is why I do like covering training camp, because you can, you can hear at least the excitement that they, they think he will be that dude. And he's going to definitely play over their rookie third round pick. Nick Martin, we'll have to wait and see. But they do have some

rookies that'll play right away like an Upton stout. And I love Uteen up the next segment because I think talking about whether Salah's defense still makes sense in 2025 is something fun to get to. So we're going to take a quick break. We won't talk Arante Ursary, just like... I really have some... Maybe killing Cam Robinson. I like getting rid of it. We won't talk Chiefs Offensive Line.

We did that already, Josh Simmons. I'm thinking... We won't talk injuries like Rashon Slater. Seahawks run game. Oh man, we've hit that a lot. We'll see after the break. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here.

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Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily, you can check us out on YouTube. Like, subscribe, like it really helps us out. a review on iTunes as well. We were talking about Robert Sala, and I think using that as a starting point, do you think his style of defense, for instance, fits in what's going on in 2025

or has kind of defensive trends, not made it obsolete, but made his type of defense less popular? I do think that the static nature of the wide nine, like we see with Schwartz and the Browns, what Quinn was trying to do at really in Dallas. I think that is kind of dying out. I mean, Swartz really had to pivot.

This was a defense that dominated a couple of years ago and just running man coverage. Man coverage is kind of like you're going to tap out at some point, right? It's like think about you're running a track meet for 17 games. You might be able to do that for a while, but then we saw when they got into the playoffs, they had a pivot to cover three, get a couple of injuries.

So I think with Sala, the one thing that he has an advantage on that him and Ulbrook were able to build with the Jets was actually start building some quarter structures. You know, your quarter quarter half, they ran a ton of coverage six, which is quarter quarter half. So explain that to the listener. What does any of that mean?

Okay, so all quarters is, is you essentially are taking all four of your backfield defensive backs and you're capping all the verticals of the receivers. So there's typically five receivers that are eligible. One of those is going to probably be They're running back. And so we're not talking empty. We're talking back in the back field.

So your four eligible receivers that are really on the line, those guys are going to be capped by defensive backs. And it's why they call it an umbrella coverage or a shell. And even capped, what do you mean by cap? They're going to make sure they're on top of the verticals. Yeah. So you're not, it essentially is in the old style of NFL, cover four has always been a really a third and long coverage.

It's becoming more nuanced now. teams are starting to really lean into quarters. One of the reasons why a lot of coaches don't like quarters is because it is teaching intensive. You have to actually have tags. You have to have certain ways that we're going to match routes and you have to work those matches. And a lot of guys don't have the time,

nor do they have the knowledge. I know that sounds crazy, but quarters is not, this is not college football. This is the NFL. And there's a lot of guys that have not run quarters outside of like third long. Yeah. And so when you play like this

and what we've seen is in the emergence of this type of system, Vic Fangio, but then also, you know, the, you know, Jim Johnson and the old Sean McDermott, Ron Rivera, days, you know, those guys will always say, well, we were doing quarters before Fangio was doing quarters and all this stuff. And so now you're, but you're really seeing Fangio popularize this because basically what it does is it builds a dome over all of the unfolding layers of the passing game. And you hear people complain about like the shell and too high. has ruined passing and like all of these things and the... They really are less big plays, though.

It's suffocating. That's why this has become a popular thing. What Robert Sala had done in New York, and it's also why Jeff Ulbric became such a popular coaching hire was because of the different ways that they were building that hyper-aggressive wide front that could still cut off outside zone runs and screens that have become very, very popular in the league. Because if you think about it this way,

if your defensive line is automatically playing, wider, you're able to, those players are able to cut off the wider parts of the run game and the wider parts of the passing game, wide zone and schemes and screens. So now you're going to a defense that can, is trying at least, I don't think he has the personnel this year, who's trying to do both, play wide up front and dynamic in the pass rush, which means you can't design as much pressure because your guys are more matching routes and playing in the backfield. You called your substack match quarters. So, So this style of defense, gaining popularity in the NFL, it's good for you.

Good for business. And nobody was explaining it. You know, you were ahead of the game. How did you see that coming? I mean, well, because this is what you had to do in 2010 to defend all the Uber spread that was hitting, that's saying college football. And then also the quarterback run game is also an element. But the big difference is the quarters that you see at the college level and even at the high school level

is not necessarily the same at the NFL level. And I will even go one further. Like Vic Fangio isn't even a quarters guy. He's actually more of a rotational cover six guy. So he has cover two on one side, right, which is a triangle. Think of it, think of it like in geometry terms. Cover two is a triangle. You have a corner in the flat.

You got a linebacker overhang in the seam. You have a safety on top. Quarters is a box. You got a flat. You got a seam. You got two cap defenders. So you've created a box. And so what he's done is he's actually,

and one of his innovations, is really playing everything from a two-high shell, yes. He's really a cover-three guy. Most of the Fangio-adjacent guys are all cover-three guys. But the way that it merries when you have a cover two and you can rotate it, right? I can rotate it to the nickel or the passing strength. Or I can use it to kind of get a zone double

on the single receiver to the backside. When you do that, everything looks like weak rotation cover three, which means we're dropping the safety away from the nickel. So you get this muddying of quarterbacks have always looked at the weak side safety for their indicator. Well, if that guy doesn't move, I don't have an indicator. And so the indicators are now at the corner and there's no quarterback that's looking at the corner for the coverage indicator. So it's just an extension in all these guys, especially like with the Sala, you go back in 2018 to 2019, they hopped on that quarter strain really quick and kind of ran with it.

they run a little bit. It's not the same. The Raven system guys, so the McDonald's and the mentors, they have kind of picked up the Fangio system because that's all stemmed from the 1989 Saints with Jim Morris Senior. Right. And I mean, there's all this stuff that feels new all has antecedents to like what you're saying and Jim Mora and Buddy Ryan and even Buddy Ryan's stuff. He would say he was stealing it. And that's back in like the 80s and early 90s with a lot of pressure now is coming from Rex Ryan, man. It's crazy what's coming out these days. Right. So it's like it is amazing to think that's how football has evolved and worked.

But what is what's a team that you love Cody to watch now, whether it's 2024 and coming into 2025 in terms of what they're doing schematically and just like specifically with their players, mentioned the players too, that like you think is on the cutting edge and really is about like where defense is right now and where it's going. I think the most fun defense for the past three years, I think if you ask a lot of NFL fans, I'll probably be like, it's got to be the Vikings, right?

They're just blitzing everybody. Face Meltter, 5,000 defense, right? Floor is just over there just like... Face Meltter. It's actually not. The best defense to watch, if you are a scheme nerd or you want to watch just some wild stuff on Sunday

is to watch the Arizona Cardinals. Right. But that's partly because they don't have... But why? But why? That's the talent. Right? I mean, in part because they're just throwing crazy stuff. If they had better talent, do you think they would be as crazy?

They haven't changed. But they haven't had the talent until this year. Well, but even so, like if you go back and really watch what Gannon was doing with the Eagles, is a lot of the foundational stuff of what they're trying to do. And then he goes and he hires Patrick Tony from Florida, who is, if you don't know who Patrick Tony is, he is basically a cult legend in the coaching world. Like he is a, he's a schematic nerd like me.

that's why we're friends but he uh he can do some things in the secondary and design secondary stuff and it fits the quarter structures with what ganon was trying to get to so ganon see the fangio wants to run his six and eight stuff so he wants to rotate the the cover too whereas ganon was like i just want to play quarters and so what they're doing is true split field coverage where i mean they did this if go back and watch the chiefs preseason game and they're running a five-man front, they're running robber coverage so they're dropping a safety down. They're overlapping the corner to get into a cover too. They're doing it in the preseason. They're doing it in the preseason. They don't care. They don't care. By the way, the whole thing of like, you never see

interesting schemes or everything is completely vanilla in the preseason. That's not really that true anymore. But it is sometimes, but it's also not with other teams. It's true for some offenses, but I posit that it's not true anymore for teams that don't give a hoot because they will run their stuff because they know you're not going to see it. when I talk to coaches around the league and they're trying to discern between what quarters is and what something different type of zones are, they

can't because everything looks so similar. And these are at the top of their level coaches. I mean, Jesse Minter is dropping out defensive tackles to pick off Stetson Bennett in the fourth quarter of like a meaningless preseason game. It meant a lot to Stets and Bennett. Yeah. I'm just saying. But that's the thing.

They're so good now that it's okay that they're showing things because they think that you're going to try to just play your offense true anyway because if you're a quarterback and you're having to do all of these things pre-snap and you're a coordinator that's having to do all these things pre-snap that we've talked about before that you have to do against the Cardinals. I remember a couple years ago when Matthew Stafford was like, I didn't know what the heck I was seeing with the Cardinals. So we just ran the ball 50 times.

And if you can, you should. But like, that's the thing about that defense that's interesting is they don't care if they're showing you their work because they don't think you're going to be able to see it, they think you're just going to have to play your offense regardless because they don't think you're going to see it the way that they're actually showing their rules. So what is it that they do that that's so difficult? And do you think it can take the step for the Cardinals specifically because, you know, the argument would be against them is like, okay, year one, they were just, yeah, it was interesting, but they weren't good. And then year two, I think they punched above their weight, but ultimately they were like average. I think

they punched above their weight in terms of the talent that they have. And they added a lot up front this year. Are they going to be as crazy this year? And like, what is it, what is it that gets you going that's so crazy that work? Because ultimately, they still were boom or bust. Like I said, I think they overachieved. But I'm also not, they weren't one of the 10 best defenses in the league last year by pretty much any like advanced metric. They ended the year. 14th in DVO. They were playing well and like I said they weren't playing with great players either so that that's part of it well I think they've

kind of built they knew that they needed to get the front structure right that that's what they needed so they bring in like Calais Campbell to work with a Walter Nolan right and then you have you have Josh Wet who now they have a pass rusher you have these hybrid you still have a Zavian Collins so you like

what ended up when they got there was it was like an island of misfit toys is that they had all these like hybrids that they didn't really know where they fit and so what do you do you build a hybrid defense around that what they're doing really essentially is it's it's a build a three four so they have three safeties across the back side with buda baker really being the you know the key cog and all of this and then they can blitz him they can drop him to the boundary they can drop them to the field they can go and they can you know run him and they can

run that regular Tampa structure they can run quarters they can run cover three they can do almost anything out of that three high structure which is another trend that we're seeing in the NFL you know we've mentioned mentor on here several times but third down is typically when we're starting to see these three high structures but they play it from base down so first and second down they are going to be in some sort of a five-man front there's going to be one linebacker sitting there and you have no idea where Buda baker is going to end up and even what they showed in the preseason you have no idea what the final coverage structure is going to even look like. So we can drop him down and you think, okay, we know now what we're getting into.

But then the whole back end is like an amoeba and it just like morphs into something that you don't even know. And so I really think, yes, there's a genius out of desperation, right? But I do think that there's real structure here. It's not a gimmick. They believe in it. And he's got one of the, you know, Gana's got one of the youngest staffs. And I think it's refreshing that the younger generation, you're seeing these younger D.Cs get shots early.

They're not getting shots in 50 and 60 when they're just like, I ain't messing up because I just got this job. It's like now, hey, let's do some weird stuff. Nick Rallis is 32 years old and he's had that job, what, for two years. So he was 30 when he... And I will say there's also this growing trend. And I wonder if you could speak a little bit about this, too. Cody, is a lot of these young,

especially younger D.C.s that are coming up. And Chris Shula is one of these guys in L.A. and Jesse Minter was talking about how he studied so much offense and he sat in so many offensive rooms. Kevin O'Connell and Brandon Staley used to do this to each other. They used to go into each other's meetings and try to sit at. But Nick Rallis, the first time I ever met Nick Rallis was when he was in an offensive coaching incubator, like studying offenses. And so I think what they're seeing is how fast offenses are moving, how you can't, you have to come up with a defense and a plan that is going to be a catch-all

for all kinds of rapidly moving and shifting offensive cycles. Okay, the run game, quote, unquote, is back. Heavier personnel using multiple tight ends. Even a fullback, we didn't talk about Seattle's run game, but Robbie Out, it's like starting to use the fullback back in like these throwback Shanahan, which you say throwback now, but what was it, 2019, 2018?

But like, these things are coming back. So you have to have a defense where it is going to, anticipate what offenses are doing and where offenses are going, you have to understand that in order to build what will be a catch-all for, regardless of where you're at in the team building. Well, I think, too, that this generation, and starting with my direction,

I'm about turn 40 here in January, my generation was probably that first generation in the early 2000s that was like introduced to the spread. And then so our entire coaching careers have been through the spread lens, whether it was in college, and then we see that spread explosion really in 2018 when it broke football at the NFL level.

And these guys are used to like, hey, we're already outmatched offensively. How can we figure this out? So a lot of these guys are willing to do some different things and think outside the box. And then like you said, there's been a trend really within the last five, 10 years of offensive coaches going and picking

a really talented young defensive coach and bringing them over and sitting them in them in the office and having them tell me, hey, how are they, okay, how are they matching this? What are the rules for this? How can we take advantage of that? And so, offenses have accelerated, but they're also pulling that knowledge back and bringing it back into the defensive room, and it's just recycling. And so that cat and mouse game is just kind of continuing.

There is, I don't think, a fear, but do you think there are these think pieces out there is like defense is making a comeback, that defense is ahead? Like, how, A, do you think that's remotely true at all? And B, like, along with what Jordan was saying in terms of right now, the trends on offense being back to getting, like, a little heavier, a little more run heavy, like, what do you think defenses are going to do this year to help counter that? Well, I just think historically the NFL goes through very distinct cycles. And these are predictable. We can see this. You can go all the way back to the 70s when Arnsparger and the 50s.

three defense this was basically the birth of the three four then offenses advanced then you have l t we have the move tied in from gibbs so we have our hback and 12 personnel packages come in we have you know you keep going further down and then now we get into where defenses have essentially become a bunch of hybrid positionless players we talk about it all the time it's been there but like we really truly are now the one thing about football that will remain this thing so you talk about will defense ever, you know, just dominate like it did in the 90s when we were playing Neanderthal ball in three yards

in a cloud of dust. But I don't think it will. The spread's won. The NFL won't let it. No, no, no, no, no. The spread one. Yeah, passing one. Passing one. Analytically, we know it's more efficient than running the ball. We now understand how to manipulate space. They know how to motions.

And the way that the rules are set up with... I was going to say, if not the NFL just changed the rules. Right. Exactly. I'm not joking. I mean, that's obvious. They've done it throughout the history. Well, offense, look,

I'm a defense guy, and I can, I'm just from, from experience, people love offense. That's what puts, but I love defense. Yes.

You know, I'm a glutton for punishment. So, yes, I'm a defense coach by trade. So, yes. But offensively, I think the way that this cycle always works is that the defense

comes back, right? They figure it out. And then the offense is forced to then do something new. And so I think defensively, one of the things we've, we've mentioned it, the quarters kind of waned last year,

but it didn't wane in the fact that people weren't running it. It just came up and like more people are running these. I call it targeted coverages. It's the Fangio system where you're moving a cover to around, whether it's to the nickel away. What you're building is backstops and zone doubles. So I'm going to cap your best receiver. But then I'm also,

if you want to run them across the field because you don't want to run them vertical, I'm going to create a backstop away from him. So that's where these quarter structures comes in. And I think that's one of the things that people don't understand about defense. They just think too high shells either cover two or it's quarters and it's not.

Like Fanzio isn't a quarters guy, but he transitioned into one. And why? Because what are our offense is doing right now in the NFL? They're getting tighter and tighter and tighter. One of the biggest things last year was what's called a wave concept.

So you essentially run a vertical to the middle of the field, and then you take two deep crosses and you run them across. It's the old Yankee or the old cross-country concept that's been around for football forever, but they're adding an extra guy.

And so how are you going to defend that? Now we've got guys in court. Quarter structures make sure that you can have guys on both sides and they just tilt. They just tilt, they can cross-key it, and so they're picking it up.

And so that's why I think quarters will come back. I think man coverage is slowly gone down. And then two, man nobody runs two man anymore yeah and explain what two man is two safeties high man underneath what kills two man running quarterbacks what do we have on almost every single team a quarterback that can scramble and so you don't it's like less than one percent and also like that it is interesting that the value of like man cornerbacks who are that's the best thing that they do feels which is weird because that's that's what you think about with cornerbacks like but their value has gone down like those

sorts of players. I'm trying to think of who's a good example. Like a Carlton Davis is probably less valuable than he would have been 15 years ago. And I think part of it too is because these coverages can morph around how routes are unfolding on the field, that automatically actually increases the importance of cornerbacks who have played in a match zone system or a system that at least has pattern matched or a system that at least, which means that you are understanding where the route is going to go. You're not playing a space on the field like a zone would. Instead, you're playing where you know the route is going to go. And that's where I think this is different. You're having defensive players who can do more than ever that are smarter than ever that can

fit, have seen more football than ever, that can fit in these like ellipsies around the back portions of fields in accordance with where the offense is trying to attack them. And I think that's why in part you saw a reaction, and in part because the nickels were so small, you saw a reaction to teams doing the thing that I just said, Matthew Stafford said he told Sean McBay to do. I don't know what I'm seeing. Run the damn ball. And that's exactly why you're seeing this spring out.

You only get maybe a year or two of this before the next thing comes out. The next offense breaks defense thing comes out. And waves happen so fast. And I think the improvement of technology is a part of that. Like we're talking about coaches that are sharing so many things with each other now where it used to be like I carry my playbook strapped to my body, you know, into my house at night because I don't want someone else taking it from me. Now everything's available to watch and take. And these guys are running these clinics with each other. They're bringing college coaches up to run clinics with them as offensive coaches to sit in, to hear what they know to pick their brains. Kind of like what we're making Cody do for us here today. I know. We appreciated Cody. Yeah, before we let you go because we're, We're wrapping up here. It's interesting, you know, you mentioned kind of like, okay, you got the five downlinemen, five up front, and there's like one linebacker on the field.

And that is something I'm curious to hear your thoughts on just linebackers right now. Not that they're an endangered species, but it is really interesting to think maybe more than any position on defense over the last 20 years have evolved and their importance has on one level minimized because there's just less of them literally on the field that can and do everything. But man, it's important to have that one guy. For Jesse Minter to have that day on Henley,

that's the one linebacker on the field. So you watching football and film, like, who do you love to watch and maybe talk a little bit about, like, how that position has evolved and become so difficult

to find, like, the right person to do that. Well, I think a great example of where we are in modern linebacker play is the commanders

because what you have is, Bobby Wagner, who is a traditional Mike linebacker. He is an agap fitter. He's going to plug the run. He's good enough in coverage that he can give you a little bit of space in the middle of the field, but you don't necessarily want him always guarding somebody. And then you have right next to him is Frankie Louvo, who is he an edge? Is he a linebacker?

He can be whatever you need him to be. You know, he's staying in that. You have a guy like Zach Bond, who essentially was an old-school Ted linebacker. Ted has a T.E. in it, meaning he just lined up on the tight end and played essentially a glorified nine technique. So he was outside of the tight end. And he was just a wall builder for the defense. And then he comes to the Eagles and Fangio's moving him around like he was moving Andrew Van Ginkle. And so I think what you see with these off ball linebackers and really where we are because of this hybridization of everything. You can't just be a four down front anymore. You have to be a five, you know, you have to be able to get into odd fronts. You can't just be a single. high coverage team. You have to run some of these two high structures. And I think what you're seeing is you have to add value now as a player. We're in an add value now. Like you have to be able to be an off ball linebacker, but then can you pass rush? Can you add value? Or is your added value in the coverage? So you can run, you know, you have to find ways to add value. And I think

the linebacker position, they're kind of now two rooms. We have our kind of hybrid guy that can go down and he can pass rush. But then we also have our traditional linebacker. that you still need in the game because they still have to fit the A gap. Yeah, when I was on my training camp circuit, like traveling around the camps, it was interesting, a coach that I talked to described it as this giant, like, combating math equation, right?

Where if you already automatically know that the way that offenses can play now, you have a running back who can work out of the passing game and also run the ball. That's a plus two, one trait, another trait. Two ads, it's a plus two. You have tight ends who can block and be a mismatch in the past game.

That's another plus two. You have receivers who can block and also be a mismatch in the past game. That's another plus two. So if you're not at least a plus two player at a skill on offense, you are not going to be on the field for as many downs.

They're going to try to take you off as much as possible. Conversely, on the defensive side, if you cannot become a plus two player, whether it's the positions you can play or the phases of football that you can contribute in, you are not going to be on the field

at this point in football. And you're just trying to match the opposite sides. numbers advantage, which is always the dance that happens when you're scheming and game plan against people. Unless you join the Raiders as a linebacker, who I think Pete Carroll is just lining up like, not plus twos, just guys that are old school from the 90s. He's trying to bring it. No, no, that's harsh. You got me thinking, Jehad Campbell, I mean, is that is that plus one? And Zach Bond, I think is sort of a prototype now, which is crazy to think about based on where he was

a year ago at this time, but how do you think those two guys together, like, they're going to deploy those two? What can you do with two linebackers like that? Well, that's kind of one of the trends that we're seeing is that, okay, we're a nickel-based defense, meaning that we're going to have five dbs on the field. Okay. Traditionally, that's with a four-down line. Okay, the penny front, which is a five-one, which is what we talked about with the Cardinals, that's kind of people are starting to move away from it because those edges aren't dynamic enough. And when I put 5-1 out there you know like when our penny packages out there you know here's a certain set of things that we can do and here's a certain set of things that we can't so the all it makes it off

it's easier but if i go with forward down linemen and i'm in a regular traditional nickel but then i walk one of my guys down whether it's strong or weak now or now we're into a five-man front changes the blocking changes the protections is he going to drop back out is he not are you going to blitz and then drop them like there's a million different things that now a variable so if a like, you know, McVeigh is going to run everything through 11 personnel, but, you know, your, your receivers, you know, also a fullback. Okay, well, that's great. 11 and a half personnel. Right. So what if we did the same thing on defense? And I think that's why you were starting to see, too, like another trend is safety collection, right? Big Nichols back from a decade ago. It's back. We're going to have three safeties on the field. And so I think that part of it, now Fangio has two guys that he can do that with, and you don't know where they're going to come from. It's also just that humans are getting better at doing everything athletically. I feel like that's underrated.

It's like my theory that, you know, almost every NFL game has a play that's better than any play that happened in the 70s. It's just like the humans are advancing. I mean, you look at basketball, you look at tennis, you look at football. A lot of the things that you just said about football, like to me you could say about basketball, you could say about tennis, where everyone can now do everything. It used to just be like, this is his style of play.

And it's positionless and it's offense, defense. And it's just like, we're getting better. It's exciting. Cody, it was a pleasure to have you on. We got to do this again. My brain is, it's expanding. It's going to explode from everything I learned here on defense. And I love having you on.

And we got to make this flight worth it. I mean, you came all the way out here for a little old NFL daily. Go check out substack. I can tell you're, I can tell you're very pleased with yourself when you why. We're going to football practice. man. Okay, you went to the ram.

Come on now. Like, what are you? What are we doing? He told me that he came out for NFL Daily, so I'm just taking that. You're the host of NFL Daily. Of course he said that to you.

I loved it. So, yeah, make it count. Check out Cody's substack match quarters. Join the 20,000 subscribers there for match quarters. I'm substack and he's got

the let's talk ball podcast as well. It was a pleasure. Jordan, you will be back with me next week. But the next time you'll hear from me will be Sunday.

night. Yes, the last of our weekly Sunday evening recaps with Nick Shook. I'm going to miss it. I know. I like the vibe. They're good, good vibes in that. I feel like you start off and you're like excited for the preseason and then you're ready for it. And I don't know what it says about me, but this year I think I've actually like enjoyed the preseason more than ever. So we'll be back Sunday evening. Football's back. Hey everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies

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