NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - QB Draft Class Deep Dive with Jon Ledyard

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Jon Ledyard for a deep dive into this year's QB draft class. The guys start with a discuss about Cam Ward (01:30) and his fit with the Titans (08:00) followed by a look at Shedeur Sanders (11:15) and his best fit (18:30). The show is wrapped up with looks at Jaxson Dart (28:10), Jalen Milroe (35:00), Tyler Shough (41:20) and more! Note: time codes approixmate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to NFL Daily, where we're always trying not to reach for quarterbacks. I'm Greg Rosenthal. I'm in the Chris Wesleyan podcast. Cast Studio and I am joined by one of the best minds in the podcasting writing game. It's John Ledyard. He's got the audibles and analytics substack. He's got a great podcast with Ali Connolly.

John, what is happening? Man, not too much. Thank you for the kind words. First of all, always fun to be on here with you and talking some ball. I believe last time we talked, we ranked and tiered tight ends. It was a lot of a lot of backlash for that. So, I'm excited to, I'm sure, get no backlash for today's podcast. No, and I don't even know if we're going to rank it. We're going to talk quarterback. So I've been not pimping, but getting ready for this week now for a while, saying like, you know, we're getting into the draft.

It's been a slow process. I've got the weekly show with Daniel Jeremiah Audibles. And analytics is another one that people should check out with you and Ollie, DJ and I are on Thursdays. But like, now it's go time. We are two and a half weeks out from the draft. every day now is draft and we're going to talk

quarterbacks today and kind of keep it specifically to quarterbacks and I'm not going to put you and make you do a ranking but we'll talk about good fits and we'll kind of order him in some sort of way and I guess we might as well just start at the top. Now we because we've talked draft, it's not like Cam Ward

has not come up on this show but I don't think we've dive deep until what makes him special. Kind of what was your journey with Cam Ward as a prospect, and where did you land in terms of, like, how special do you think he is? Yeah, the profile's weird right away, right? 23-year-old rookie, he'll be three different schools.

So you're already like, okay, there's maybe some red flags there. Right, and one of the schools was incarnate word, which. Yeah. Yeah, which is it necessarily what you traditionally think of as the trajectory. But, you know, the multiple schools saying, you know, we're starting to move away. That's more normal. Three is still, you know, being an older rookie. And to be honest with you, Greg, like people just didn't talk about Kim Ward, like a special should be the top overall pick, even the beginning of the season.

So to say it's come out of nowhere isn't fair because he's been on the radar for everybody for a long time. We've known the skill set and the traits are interesting. I think this year he got better in some really key ways, though, which makes him, you know, he's my top quarterback. I think he's most people's top quarterback. The NFL, generally everything we hear is, yeah, this guy's going first, and almost every team has him first. And it's not that close to a tier by himself type of guy in this class. I think. Now, I think one of the things that it's really interesting is one of the things he did really poorly in the past was manage the pocket. And this is still an area of growth for him, an area where he

needs to continue to grow in a lot. But, I mean, his pressure to sacrate went down this year, 15.9% was a big step in the right direction for him. So that, just the ability to manage the game a little bit better now. His footwork, he still needs some work in terms of being able to set up the right way. This guy is so lax and the detail sometimes. And he can get away within the college ball. And he might be able to do it some in the NFL. Some of these guys do in the NFL. And he's a pretty great arm. I don't think he's quite that special from a talent perspective. So I do think he needs to continue to develop in those ways. But watching some of the processing stuff get faster and the other key thing, I think he just throws to every spot on the field. Like he will

throw in breakers with anticipation, which to me shows a lot of development and growth there. He's playing a little bit of a step ahead right now. So encouraging signs in the right direction in some really key areas of quarterback play this past season where why I think he's really, not only is he's the best in the class, but he's moving in the right direction. Right. It is funny. I love the draft community. And yet, you really don't know where these players are going to land until pretty late in the process. I remember RG3, there was no one saying that he was going to be going top two until very late in that season. And not to pick on him, but I remember like a pop. podcast episode, Jim Nagy was on. Who knows more about these prospects than anyone? He was running the

senior bowl for many years. And he was on with McShay. And he was talking in the middle of this season, hey, don't count on Cam Ward as a first round pick. Like, the reason he went back to school was teams were telling him he was a fifth or sixth round pick. If he was going to come out last year, he actually wasn't even going to be invited to the senior bowl, which is crazy to think. And now he's the number one overall pick. And, A, you don't know how a player is going to develop. And then B, you don't really know how teams are going to look at him. And I think when they look at his tape from this season, and I dove into it, there's, there's so much to be excited about. I mean, putting a far of comparison on someone is crazy, but because he definitely

doesn't have like that arm. But in terms of the taking the chances, but enough of a pocket feel, like a better scrambler and athlete than he is like a runner, like then he's sort of being given credit for and just making it all happen. Like, I'm in. Like, he's going to add a lot of value to my life, John. That's what I care most about. I think he's going to be box office and he's going to be a fun player to watch. And that level of chill that you described in terms of how relaxed he is back there, I think there is some negatives to it, but there's some positives to it as well. He's certainly, like, not afraid of the pass rush. And I think he plays in such a relaxed way. It makes you think, at least that mentally I think he's he's got a lot going on where the game is not too fast for

him certainly after all that college experience. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is everything's just sort of slowed down for him. Like he just feels more confident, even from the beginning of this season to the end of the season. I think we saw that a lot. Like there was a lot of notable things in the early in the season where he was drifting around in the pocket. He was a little bit unsure playing on time. And then as the season went on, he was playing his best ball. He was getting the ball out more on time. So there's definitely things to work on. This is not the most home run quarterback prospect that we've seen there by any stretch of the imagination there are things that he needs to get better at there is bus potential here even i would think i would say

i don't know that that's what that's not what i'm betting on happening but i think it's important to acknowledge that it's more possible here than it is with a lot of qb ones and other drafts not necessarily because this draft is so bad just sort of because who ward is as a player there are some things about his game that like i said have improved but ultimately he will throw it to the other team at times and he will take risks with the ball that he shouldn't and those sorts of things combined with if the pocket stuff doesn't get better because right now he's getting the ball out on time more and he's not taking sacks more than he once did right but he's still making some questionable decisions and he's still not setting up properly all the time his setup is really

kind of all over the place terms of how he throws he doesn't mind drifting back and thrown off his back foot and he and sanders honestly have some similarities and their weaknesses they're different in terms of their strengths but in some terms of their weaknesses ward can get away with some of those messy footwork things a little bit, but I don't think, like I said, that it's going to be quite at that level where it's so special. It doesn't matter what his feet look like. I still think he needs to get better at some of those details. And if he doesn't, it's the type of thing that could lead to like pretty big lapses in offense where he's not going to be able to be just to manage the situation type of player. He's going to be a baller. And that's

either going to work or it isn't. And so there is some bust potential just in his profile as a player. Right. I'm trying to think of someone else that would just be described as as chill as he is. I mean, Sanders has some of that in this game. I mean, Cam had a little bit of that, that he was just so big that he sort of didn't care what was happening around. And Ryan Tannahill weirdly just was

kind of chill back there if he wanted, but not like the same sort of like loose athlete. The thing is, if you're grading the flashes, you see it all. You do see anticipation. You do see him going through his reads. You see him kind of lock in and lock out during games, But that shows me like, okay, maybe if the competition in the NFL, maybe he can lock in a little more consistency, consistently.

Let's think about the fit with the Titans because I haven't really asked anyone about this or thought about it too much. And don't think I'm the right person to give an answer for him with Brian Callahan. I feel like there hasn't been a lot of talk of like, okay, how do you think that works? I'm not really sure what a Brian Callahan offense is. So that's part of the difficulty here. But how do you think with what you know about Callahan and the Titans, like how that fits together? It's really interesting because Calhian, you know, was with Burrow and then got to Tennessee and not that surprisingly, I guess, but try to run totally different stuff than what he ran with Burrow. Like it didn't look anything like the offense that the Bengals run, not that really anybody looks like the offense the Bengals ran.

So he, I really have no idea. Like he was with Will Levis and that didn't work. And so it was kind of like, okay, it was more traditional stuff. I think my guess is that would be I think the thing with Callan is he'll build the offense around the player and Ward obviously didn't work under center so is a lot of like going to be a lot of gun stuff I think will it look just like a spread it around the yard and throw it around everywhere like Joe Burrow did I don't think that's in the cards to me that would be really surprising if they made it look just like that is Ward going to have to do some more traditional quarterback stuff that he hasn't done before I don't know this is the most unknown fit of a top team and quarterback that I can remember in a long time because I don't know how the Titans, even until recently, I don't think people thought they thought of him this way. I don't know how they see him. I don't know what they see as being the best fit for him. I don't think anything Callahan's really done in the past year with the Titans or with the Bengals is going to be

particularly, maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't think it's going to be particularly informative to us in terms of guessing what he'll look like, what it'll look like with Cam Ward. other than to say I think there will be a lot of the gun elements, but I bet that there's some more, I mean, they ran a lot, there's a lot of RPO's in Miami's offense, like, you know, I think there'll be some of that still in Tennessee's offense as well,

but I am fascinated to know how much he's going to ask him where to be more traditional, is there going to be dropback stuff, is there going to be play action stuff where he goes under center. And like, I really don't know. If that's part of it, that's going to be so amazing to see if Ward can do that because there's a guy who's been three

different places and transformed himself, and changed and adapted over the years. But that would be yet another leap for him right out of the gate. On paper, I mean, meet him where he is. Meet him where he is and build an offense around his strengths. And he was very good at the RPO stuff.

And like I said, I think he'll be box office. And then you keep adding that. It's like they did such a good job with Jane Daniels, accentuating his strength. A very different player than Jane Daniels. He's going to have a lot of turnovers. I mean,

he just is as a rookie. But to me, I want a player that's, going to entertain me. And so maybe it's the Tennessee of it all, but he's, there's like a little Cutler. Like, I knew Cutler would entertain me as a pro. And he absolutely did. And I think Ward might might end up fitting into that archetype of people have compared him a little bit to Jordan Love. Either way, like, I think he's going to be fun to watch. And so he's going to be starting right away. And hopefully they do meet him where he is. All right, let's talk about Shadur. So

the consensus second quarterback in this class, but I think the differing opinions, are mostly about do you just group Shudur with Jackson Dart and Tyler Shuck and the rest of this crew as like kind of a second group? I know our friend Nate Tice does, for instance. He just thinks the rest of the group are varying levels of day two dart throws and shudor is in that group. Or do you kind of see him a tier above? Not really thinking about where he's going to go because he's almost certainly going to go in the first round somewhere, I think, but just more of the total evaluation, because it's such a hard, he's a tricky evaluation.

He is, he's an interesting player. I think the player that he most compares to, we didn't talk about this too much with Ward. I think, but with Sanders, I think the player most compares to is Brock Purdy at his best. If he can be at his peak, I think. They're both guys who take a little bit of time to make decisions. They have sort of a moxie about how they play and a confidence about how they play. They light told the ball. They aren't going to be.

amazing testing athletes. I don't think anybody would watch them and be like, oh, they're amazing. Like, they're just so athletic and so springy and twitchy. But when it comes to functional mobility for their position, I think they both have enough Purdy's probably a little more athletic than Sanders, I think. But I think they have enough to manage and to get by. They do some unorthodox things in terms of how they manage the pocket and playing on time, but they throw really accurate balls.

And they throw, and they throw despite not having great arms, they throw the ball well. So I think if Sanders can reach his peak, it'll be something like Brock Pretty. now. Brock Perry's in a great situation. He's got some of the best teammates in the entire NFL. That's certainly, he's got some of the best coaching in the league. All that is aided the profile in what. He's, you know, somewhere in that probably 12 to 18 range as terms of best quarterbacks in the league somewhere in there. So maybe that's the ceiling for Sanders. But I see him pretty similar to how Nate does. It sounds like in just that thinking that at least he and Dart are really different, really different. But maybe the same tier. To me, Sanders is

sharp mentally, whereas dart, I think, continues to need to develop from the neck up. And with Sanders, I love that he looks like he's played quarterback for a long time. And that part is natural to him. And the accuracy in the ball placement are natural. But I think that there's real concerns over his arm strength and his time to throw in the pocket, just how long it takes him to make decisions. He knows what to do. He just likes to play this, like, hero mentality ball where he's probably going to take shots

and he doesn't mind getting hit at all. and he'll just let himself get lined up and cleaned out in that way it reminds me of Cam Newton and that he would just take massive shots to make play. So I think Sanders has some of that without really any of the physical tools that Newton had. Right. At some point, you would think that

that it's going to come back to get you just taking the types of hits that he did. And their offensive line was terrible overall. I mean, it really was, especially at the tackles. But there were certainly plays where what you're talking about comes into play where he's the one really just inviting that pressure and he tries to be a playmaker and he's not a great playmaker.

The best plays are definitely the ones that are in structure. It always worries me if you're betting on intangibles. And I just think it's such a hard evaluation because he's been coached the same way this whole time. He is a good quarterback. He's like, does Travis Hunter even out, like lifting him up? Because a lot of his long plays, like Travis Hunter's making great plays on the ball on those plays.

to me, it's very difficult when you're betting on intangibles. I do think he's gotten a bump from just, it happens in some drafts and it happens with some name value. Occasionally, and we'll have to wait until the draft actually happens. Occasionally, like the NFL sees him totally differently and we will be just talking about him falling down to the 20s. It would be interesting, by the way, if the 49ers, if he was on the board for the 49ers, would they ever just like totally change course and be like, yeah, we're not going to give you that contract, Brock Purdy. That would be fun.

That would be amazing. I don't think they would. But not much would surprise you with the honors these days. They're pretty, they're wild and kind of, I think one of the craziest things about Sanders profile. He is one of the highest, I think he was 10th highest in the nation amongst, all college quarterbacks, an average time to throw this past year, 3.12 seconds. This is average time to throw.

This is also one of the highest RPO in screen heavy offenses in the league. How do you end up with that time to throw? in an offense that has this many RPO's and screens in it. I mean, the offense is painfully, painfully simple, painfully, poorly constructed. They had playmakers at some of these wide-out spots, and they really let those guys rip. But this offense is, I mean, he's going to get to the NFL and be like, are you kidding me? All this structural stuff could help me? I mean, no play action.

There's just so little in terms of what would aid him as a quarterback other than just there's place where he just gets the ball out quickly. But in terms of downfield stuff, he created so much stuff. And the athletes, they had created so much stuff on their own. There just wasn't a lot of things that helped them get to big stuff in their offense. It was a lot of out-of-structure stuff. And he deserves credit for that. And some of the average time to throw is that kind of stuff.

Some of it is just like, I'm not going to play on time. Like, I'm playing my way. I'm making a play. And I just, the biggest thing to me is if he was an unbelievable talent, I would be like, yeah, I'm cool with that. Like, I can roll with that because the arm, the ball just dies all the time down the field. But not distance. Distance throws. People confuse arm strength.

Oh, he can't throw it far. As soon as he throws it far in the NFL, people are going to be like, they were worried about his arm. It's about velocity when we're talking about arm strength. And he drive the ball. And that's what I think is really, it's just lacking on tape all the time. And you wish it wasn't the case because you really love the makeup of the player and the toughness, his desire to put the team on his back when he knew the system wasn't

great. But I just don't think the tools will translate to playing that way in the NFL. And I don't know if he can continue to play. And like in the pro game, they're going to ask him, throw the middle of the field on time of anticipation way more than this offense did where he's playing outside the numbers a lot that's just kind of an unknown like he didn't throw

there a lot and so what is that going to look like at the pro level when the offense he's in has way more in terms of how it attacks the field so it's going to stress defenses way more but I think it's also going to ask him to do some things that we didn't see in college yeah the out of structure plays you see the arm strength that is a huge difference

when you're watching Ward and him back to back not that Ward is Jordan Love in terms of just pure arm strength, but it's still a plus arm that gets it there and you do see the ball diet. There's a lot of contested catches and that's from the pocket as well, whereas it's contested and you're kind of thinking, well, if it was someone else throwing, maybe it wouldn't be a contested catch. So a lot of tight throws for Shudor. And yet, if you told me Andy Dalton with swag like is an outcome, like that's a good outcome for a late first round pick. Andy Dalton's

had an incredible career. You'll be getting on swag with that hair? He does have swag. Maybe early Andy Don't, I should, I should revise that. Anthony Dalton did not have swag. You were right. You got more swag as he went. Although I've heard stories because I worked with Andrew Hawkins, who was on those Bengals team. And he had AJ Green and he had, who else was on that?

Was Hush Manzada on that team and Hawkins on that team? And they all respected the hell out of Andy Dalton. They all loved Danny Dalton. So whether it was swag or not, he was, he was a leader. That was, and I think Shudor has got to give you that. like, look, if we're feeling like that's his floor, but I don't think that's necessarily his floor. I think it could go in a number of directions because of those deep drops that you talked about with Cam 2. Last thing on Shadur is just kind of who would you want to see him

with? Let's say you are in his family and you, it's not about the money in terms of the signing bonus. You just, you just think I want him to land with the right system for him. Like, is there a fit for him or a few fits out there that you like? He's one that. He's one that It's multi-layered, right? System-wise, who would he work best with is one question? And then personality-wise, like, would he work with the Giants? I just, I mean, sure. Because he's, like, a big personality, you mean?

I think he's a big personality. I think he's his own person, like, unique from a personality perspective, where, like, Brian Dable, like, what is he, is he going to be able to roll with, like, who Sanders is and just the way he communicates and all those sorts of things. Like, I actually think of it as a positive for Sanders. I, but I think the fit matters because he isn't just your, you're, and this is a good thing, I think, and it can be a really good thing,

a traditional mode at this position, will Dave will be able to roll with that? I don't know, maybe he will. He better be his careers on the line. He's had a lot of quarterbacks, to be fair to Brian Daible going back to college, going back to Tom Brady, if you wanted, Josh, you know, you got to think if they took him,

they'd have the conviction that they're going to make that work. And I think it's not like Shitter isn't going to want to be coach start or anything like that. So personality was, I'm less worried. more just like, does that fit? Or where would he fit? Yeah, I think, I mean, Pittsburgh's an interesting one that's been talked about a lot. I think from the personality perspective, that's a great fit. It's hard for me to say anybody, like Arthur Smith's offense would be very different for him from what he's run at Colorado. Now, I think anything's going to be different, but that offense

would require him to go under center. He would have to adjust to a lot of things. There's a lot of play action, a lot of shots. Like, there are some things that could maybe work, but it would be a learning curve for him in some ways. Stefansky is one that I think in Cleveland would be interesting. He's kind of remade his offense, a lot of different times, a lot of different ways for different players. So he has shown the desire to be flexible and kind of meet who players are now. None of that worked with Sean Watson and maybe mostly because he wasn't the player

that he once was. So none of the thing was going to work. But with Sanders, I think there is that layer of like, okay, if this player is willing to buy in here and be a part of what we're doing, we'll change and we'll change and adapt the offense to fit like sort of things that he wants. So that's an interesting one to me. I don't think he's going to go to Cleveland. I'm not exactly sure where he's going to go before the Raiders got Gino Smith. I was actually kind of interested in that potential fit because I think he and Pete's personalities would also be really fun together. And I would kind of love to

see that. I have no idea how I would go with Chip Kelly or what Chip Kelly's even going to run in the NFL. But so there's some interesting ones maybe. But I do think Cleveland, if it happens maybe later in the draft? You say he's going to go first shot. I think he will, but maybe it's a trade back in. I'm not totally convinced that there's a lot of teams that need them or value him maybe in the first round. Could he be the first pick in the second round? I mean, that would be interesting, maybe unlikely, but it's possible. I don't know why I think the Rams are the floor. I mean, there's no way to know what the Rams are really thinking. I think he would, I think they're in the quarterback market in this draft class. And whether

that's at 26 or they have to move up. They, they've liked moving up, but it's going to be tough for them to do so. They gave up an extra, they're missing a pick. They would be quite a luxury pick there at 26, but I could see it happening. And I think it'd be an interesting fit in that system. Let's take a quick break. And we've broken down the top two. And we'll get into the rest of the quarterbacks right after this. Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now, I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different.

Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official.

automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends

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Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Marcus Grant And I'm Michael Florio And together we host the NFL fantasy football podcast Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast Your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies

Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents Listen to the NFL fantasy football podcast on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily, and yeah, looking at John here,

it does remind me of that tight end's ranking show, which in my head at the time was going to be the first of like an off-season positional rankings show on around the NFL. unfortunately, that didn't happen. All my friends remind me all the time that I ruined everything. No, we had nothing to do with John Ledger. Maybe we'll do it again, though, in terms of the NFL daily off-season programming.

But I'm locked in on the draft. While I have you on the show, though, I do like, you know, taking us off track a little bit. You do follow the Steelers pretty close. And you just talked about Arthur Smith. Like, who would really fit in Arthur Smith off? And I do feel like there's a dichotomy between maybe how Arthur Smith gets talked about sometimes nationally. Like, he's still skating on some of those Titans' offenses, which now we're like a little bit in the rearview mirror.

And like, what is Arthur Smith really in 2025? As someone that's breaking down the Steelers, because you do it on Audibles and Analytics, it's your substack. And you do that with Ali. It's a great podcast. But you also do extra coverage on your own on the. the Steelers? I'm curious. Where are we in the Arthur Smith experience? Because I'm getting more dubious by the year. I will say that. Yeah, he's just not very good or very modern, I think. It's part of the problem. Like that, you know, that's the thing. He thinks that the things he did in

2019 are going to really succeed still in today's NFL, and it just changes too quickly. Like, everything he's doing is outdated. I would even say at that time, it was close to being out. Like, he had Derek Henry. Like, that's what he had. And that guy was awesome. And they had some other thing. I mean, I think he, I think they did a good job with what they had, but yeah, I mean, that's not an offense that anybody's thinking, oh, you should replicate that in 2025. And he's thinking that. Like, that's what he wants to replicate. So, you know, the early down runs and lots of first down runs. He's the second and long run guy. The play sequencing is an issue. And then I think the passing offense, honestly, he gets, he gets heralded as a run game guy,

but the run games have been bad for years. If you look EPA per play. That's where my basic mind looks at it. It's like the run game isn't happening. He had the people to do it. Even Atlanta wasn't happening to the consistency that you would have wanted to. That's absolutely right. I'm curious who would fit. Who do you think would fit with them at quarterback? To me, like he's a guy that wants to go under center. He wants to run play action. He wants to rely on that part of it, which I actually don't hate that part of it. I wish the play action was more threatening in terms of attack in the middle of the field, perhaps with a different quarterback it would be. First guy that comes to mine, obviously in this class, I think Will

Howard would be really interesting to him. There would be some developmental stuff with other I mean, but Jackson Dard and Will Howard are both guys that I think could be guys that if you're just saying who's the fit right now without needing a lot of molding or changing, both of those guys make sense. They've gone under center a little bit. There's some play action ability to them. They sort of have the thing with things that he looks for from a traits perspective. He wants to be able to get the ball on the field. Will Howard is not a big armed guy. He threw the deep ball really well last year.

And so and I think both are guys, DART is a little bit more interesting. We can talk more about him in a second. but I think Howard's a guy at least if he was there in the third round that he would see is, this guy will do what I tell him to do. And Russ didn't necessarily do that last year all the time. And I think, you know, there's always tension with people to Ross. I don't know how much that's overblown. Fields did, and he liked Fields, but Fields, like, wasn't capable.

Like, he wasn't comfortable. He wasn't consistent. And so I think he's looking for somebody who can do those things consistently and follow his modeled approach. hilarious that they're looking at Aaron Rogers. Right. I was going to say, if you're looking for someone to do what is told, Aaron Rogers and Arthur Smith. That could be fun.

I mean, they've both been paid contributors to McAfee. They've got that in common. They're both a little salty. It would be fun. Just from a content perspective, I'd be into that. And yes, Will Howard, the Ohio State quarterback,

who will probably go in the middle rounds somewhere. His old coordinator, Chip Kelly, is with the Raiders. So that's a connection that has been made and probably about the point in the draft where they'd think about taking a quarterback there. Let's talk Dart. and maybe Howard too, but you mentioned Arthur Smith still trying to recreate the ideas that worked

for him so well back six or seven years. That's like a life lesson thing too. There are authors that have two or three great books in them, but that's all they have or just even one great book in them and that's all that I have. And to me, it doesn't diminish how great that book was. And there's actors too, that they have like a moment in time where they do what they did. And it works amazingly for three to five years. But they're not going to go do anything else. And maybe maybe that is Arthur Smith a little bit. If you want to be a great all-time coach, you have to be like Kyle Shannon or McVeigh, that within the box of what they do or Belichick is always changing. The NFL is an evolutionary league. It is always changing. I think you guys do a really great job.

you and Ali pointing how the league is changing on your podcast. But I don't know, maybe Arthur Smith doesn't have a great second book. No, it's a good point. I think that could be true. In keeping with your analogy, maybe Derek Henry was the star actor and Arthur Smith was the supporting actor, maybe. Sure. Sure. So maybe there's that kind of help. Pink Derek Henry is a good place to start. Although it certainly, it was working. And right, you know, he, I always have a soft spot for him because I always thought Ryan Tana Hill in the right system was going to have a good career. and it took Arthur Smith to actually make it happen. So I thank Arthur for that.

Let's talk Jackson Dart. Let's talk Jackson Dart. Okay. There's been comps to like a Jalen Hertz. The thing about Dart, and I put this to Daniel Jeremiah last week, but I'll put it to you too. Like there is a lot of projection there

because what you don't see from him, some of the stuff you see from Cam Ward and Shudder Sanders, which is real quarterbacking. Like, it is just the things that they're going to ask him to do at the pro level in terms of going through his reads and anticipation and middle of the field, there's not like a ton of that on his tape. So how do you, when you're making the evaluation, work that into how you see him projecting forward? Yeah, an offense that found space a lot at Ole Miss, spread offense, RPO's, lots of that kind of stuff. You know, pro defenses are a lot better at just attacking and eliminating offenses like that, especially from pressure perspective.

which they struggled with honestly at home is too. Dark gets crushed a lot. Tons of moxie with this guy. I mean, he will throw while he's about to get just destroyed. All three of these top guys, like, no issues with them at all in terms of the toughness and the ability to make a throw while they're about to get cleaned out. Like these guys are all pretty tough,

made of the right stuff mentally for sure. You know, so the concern with Dart really is almost all. If people say he's not an elite town, I think his tape as a passer reminds me a little bit of Justin Herbert at Oregon. who I did not find that impressive, to be honest with you. I thought there were physical tools and moments and throws, but consistency-wise, from a processing standpoint, getting the ball out, accuracy. Like, I thought there were a lot of issues.

And I see some of those issues with Dart, too. You know, I don't know whether he'll make the jump that Herbert did at the next level. I think that that doesn't happen with everybody. But the blitzing, because they were from the spread so often, teams are, all right, get the ball out before we clean you out. And sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. that made DART speed up a little bit. There's a lot of times in which it's not necessarily playing fast that maybe is the issue.

I think it's more playing smart that's the issue. When the game script got to a point where he had to be the guy, it got pretty rough at times. So yeah, I'm a little bit scared of Jackson DART because I just wonder from the neck up if there's enough right now to be able to win. Like he's the kind of guy where he could get to the league if teams haven't done their homework or if they haven't, it just isn't the same on the board as it is like when he gets in the building and is out on the field. I just wonder if it's going to, it could be too big for him and it could just be too fast for him. And I think that part could be paralyzing to him and some of the decision.

And the end of the Florida game is it gets talked about, but it's legit. Like he's playing well. That old game he's rolling. As soon as it, all right, you're the guy, go make you drive, go win us the game. It's ugly, Greg. I mean, he's throwing the ball the other team. They dropped a couple picks. Like, it's everything just breaks him down and falls apart.

So you file those moments away. it's not the whole evaluation, but you think of it certainly. And I do think he's a good athlete, too, and that part of it is the Hertz part that you mentioned. I think he can not an explosive guy. Like, Hertz isn't that explosive, but has the ball carrying ability and the body armor. He's really stout in terms of his build.

So there's some interesting things you can do with them. I'm not sure how long or if it's in the cards for him to be the guy for your team. Yeah, unless you have a real vision for him. And I hate to be like, hey, he's not for me. and then Sean McVeigh drafts him or something like that. It's like clearly you are going to have a vision for him if you take him. But him in particular, I feel like you would have had to done a lot of work with him in terms of the visits and really understanding what he's seeing

because you don't see it. And I do knock him a little bit that he was in that same system for three years. So I want that thing to be mastered by the end of it. I want you to feel extremely comfortable and perfectly comfortable and proficient and intelligent within that system by the end of it. And that's where I'm not really in on him. Whereas, Shadur, you're saying, does he really have the athleticism to make up for, you know,

what, you know, the style of play that he is? And I get that. But I think you can see enough from the neck up that can I see him adjusting. I think Jackson Dart is like that, but to a lesser degree, because he's obviously a good athlete. He's got some, he's got a good arm. Like, it's easy cheese out there. Like, there's a couple plays where he flips his hips and he's running to the left and you're like, oh, that's awesome.

That's great. But it's a lot of just one read or else. And I guess if I'm going to have one thing that I'm not going to just project totally forward, that's it. Because I don't see it. I'm not smart enough, at least from what we're doing to really project that forward. And so I think you'd have to really get to the heart of like why he did, what he did. And that's tough to do from where we're sitting. his pocket positioning is really good and that gives me some hope for him whereas the other two guys

they think they drift around and they make things harder for their lines at times because of where they are in the pocket i think dart is pretty consistently in the right spot in the pocket he will move up when he needs to he actually is a pretty good feel for pressure now he still despite that ended up getting sacked a lot i think because he didn't know or necessarily where to go with the ball or the picture changed i think he knew pressure was coming he turtles he takes the ball with them. Like, it's not like he's surprised by the hit, but he just doesn't get it out as much as he should. And so that's, he's over two years in a row with over 19% pressure to sack rates and very few throwaways. If you look at his amount of times he gets out and throws it away

compared to the other guys. So those things are kind of where I say, like, I think the bus potential here is high because the, if you are constantly taking sacks and you're not thinking fast enough to get the ball out on time in the NFL, then you're just going to get bench. or you're not ready to play yet. And a lot of RPO's in this offense, right? So a lot of stuff helping him kind of get the ball. He has flashes of it. There is a couple of plays.

I think they had a fourth down conversion against Florida where he goes one, two, three. And he hits a deep crosser on a tight window for a big play. And it's like, man, like that's it. Like if you could just go. But he's, that's so far the exception. He will stare down guys and he will not move through. He'll look at one side of the field only and forget about the other side.

And so I just think there's a long way to go with him in terms of, and maybe not a long way to go. Like maybe it happens more naturally once he gets out of the Ole Miss and he has different coaching. But the fact that you said it didn't happen yet gives me some pause and some concern with him. Yeah. And the ball location is okay. It's the same with Ward. It was just okay. Sometimes it's a little off.

Like he's always, maybe it's just the timing where it just feels like he's a beat late. And when I was making the Sanders comparison, I was kind of like, you need something to maybe make up for this stuff. And everything seems good enough. He's not Jaylen Hertz as a runner. I mean, he's a good runner, but he's not. That brings us to Milro. Okay, so I've only watched so many quarterbacks here.

And Jalen Milrow would be my fourth of the ones that I watched. And it's because if you put Jalen Milrow in the NFL, well, you are. We're putting him in the NFL. How many quarterbacks in the NFL are better runners right now? Like, right now. Like if, yeah, Lamar, Jade and Daniels maybe is comparably smaller. So, I mean, you're higher injury risk, probably. Those guys were awesome.

I think he's better than Hertz already as a runner. I mean, Josh Allen is, I often say, is a Josh Allen run is the most efficient play in football. But in terms of like, even Lamar is like half a step a lot slower maybe than he was, although he kind of had it all back this year. I'm thinking more about 23. He didn't even really run that much this year. Yeah. So honestly, he might be, like,

Jalen Miller, day one might be the best running quarterback in the NFL. And damn, like, that alone is enough for me to like him better than any other quarterback that I've watched in this class. Because, like, maybe we're, like, could he be a better version of Taseham Hill? I would take that over maybe any other quarterback in this class.

Just that as a baseline, I don't think you should underrate that. That is an amazing starting point because, my God, is he a special runner? And we can talk about the drawbacks. And it's why he's not going to get taken in the first round where, look, if his season had ended, John, after the first four games of the season, because he got hurt or something, like, where would he go, do you think, by the way?

Like, just answer that thought, thought experiment. Would he be a first round pick then? I don't think so just because the vetting process, I think the war. So people get excited about him as a college player. And I think there's reason to be excited about him in the NFL too. but I wonder if the process would still bring out some of the warts in his game and at the end of the day teams once it's easy in the moment to get caught and be oh this guy's exciting and then teams have to be like hold on a second this guy had the highest

like in the nation like basically uncatchable throw rate and like even throws that were like some of the passing stuff is okay give me the other side of it give me the other side of it then let's get me the other side of it yeah I mean he is like he is truly one of the most unbelievable athletes in the league of this position and the size too and the leadership too I mean I think the intangibles are great, too. However, yeah, the accuracy stuff is a real concern. He did play the position faster this year. I don't know if he played it better.

In fact, he maybe didn't. And so maybe that's more of a concern. But, I mean, he really improved time to throw in some of those sorts of things. The accuracy was still an issue, I think, at different levels of the field. Also, just the fundamentally, the way manages the pocket, the way manages the game is really sporadic. It's hard to be to feel like you have a reliable sense. of what he's going to do in a given player, given situation. So I think he's difficult to coach, especially at a level where coaches are going

to be like, this is what we do, do it for the most part, not maybe not all. The mocking him to Pittsburgh thing that's very common right now, did he meet with them? Who is in that meeting? All that kind of stuff that's happening with him right now. Like, it's really funny because it would be such a Tomlin pick. Like, I loves the personality of the player. And that's kind of stuff Tomlin gravitates for it.

It'd be such a funny fit in the offense. So everybody's trying to figure out where he goes. the reason we keep bringing up the same couple teams is there really are only a couple teams that need a quarterback. So it's probably going to be a surprise team that takes a couple of these guys. But teams really feel like, yeah, this class, we're not who we want or we're not getting a guy who can play.

So I think he could go to any team because it's just sort of like a raw canvas in terms of what you're working with. And his approach, I think, is going to be really good. And, you know, the Alabama thing plus the personality, I think everybody's like, could he be our Jalen Hertz? A more explosive, you know, could that be the case? and that's probably the best case scenario, I'd say, maybe.

I mean, that, yeah, that would be, that would be incredible. I mean, he, he is a next level athlete. And so I have a friend, Adam West, who you guys know if you listen to the show, the Saints Block Party podcast. And by the way, he's, he's been pumping up, like, dart to the Saints. Like, he would be excited about that and they would be excited about that. I'm not, I'm not liking that for anyone involved, but he was like, you're going to love Milro when you watch them.

And of course, I do, because how can you not be exciting watching him? The thing I would just push back slightly on the passing, which is, it's pretty erratic. It's pretty rough. There were legitimate spots in his career where he had to make throws to win games. And he made him. And so, like, he's not going to be a plus plus thrower. And that's maybe going to, like, limit his ceiling. But there were third and nine situations.

He's playing Georgia this year. And he has to make the throw. And he did make him. So it's not like you're working with nothing as a thrower. And so I just, it would have to be with the right fit. And it might be a third, fourth round. I'm not saying you would, you would take them early. It might be with a team like the Cardinals who don't need anything right now,

but are just like, hey, maybe in a couple years, Jalen Milrow would be an interesting option, like instead of Kyler. It might be like something like that. But if you're telling me, he's starting out his career as like a plus, like version of Taysam Hill or something that comes in for a little bit. Like, I'm buying that as a mid-round pick. That would be kind of fun. Come on, John.

As a mid-round pick, I 100% agree. Like I would be really in because there are a lot of things you're worth working with. And you said like the big time throw rate, this guy really made a lot of high degree difficulty throws too. It isn't like he's never hit anybody on a pass or something like somebody gets talked about. I think the consistency at the position, which is I think the most underrated part of quarterback play is not the high and stuff with the consistency is where you really get concerned about him.

Is that going to be able to evolve or grow in the NFL? But like, would you rather take a chance on somebody who's already, as you said, starting from an unbelievable mobility perspective or we'll talk about him maybe a little bit but like somebody like Tyler Shuck who I'm just talking about it combined it all it's all happening it's all happening yeah and I'm not like I would have

I would have Millrow ahead of Jackson Dart ultimately not that I get why why he in a generic board but just that I in the terms of ways that I think different people are going to want to miss in different types of ways I would be more comfortable missing with Milro I feel like Jackson Dart's giving me too much like Drew Locke vibes

of the type of quarterback where it doesn't work, whereas if you have a vision of how Milrow could work. All right, let's throw Shuck in here, too. So Tyler Shuck, an older prospect at Louisville, he was in the same prospect class as Trevor Lawrence, which is outrageous. And Justin Fields too, right? He was in that class, too,

even though he came out a year later. And so that to me is a little bit of a knock. Give me your Tyler Shuck thoughts. you with Tyler. And yet, seven college seasons, and yet he has 400 less career dropbacks than Jackson Dart. Oh, wow. He has way less, way less than Sanders and Camp Ward. He only has 1,095 dropbacks and six college seasons was injured during that seventh. He is one of the oldest players in the class, as we mentioned. He'll be 26 as a rookie. However, he's also one of the least experienced. That is a tough combination in a position where experience matters greatly. Now,

I will say this. There are some plays, and this is why people like Tyler Shuck. Everything is textbook, Greg. Back foot hits, ball comes out, anticipation, throw middle of the field on a dig, right in the zone window. It's beautiful. And that's where the coach people love Tyler Shuck, where they're like, this guy does exactly what I asked for her to do. He plays on time. This is great.

And he's talented. It's not like he's not talented. He is very talented. He's not just like a system guy. Like there are some beautiful throws. He can move. Like, he is talented. I do want to say that while I'm about to kill him.

He is. Yeah. And he is good enough. arm, he's size, he's dropbacks under center, all the stuff that you know that the coach, the coach draft people and the coaches in the league are like, this guy could, we could get him in the system, he could be okay for us. Every coach thinks their scheme is going to be enough, and if they can just get a player in the other that'll run the scheme, they'll be fine.

The problem is he just can't create. He's not a creator whatsoever. 31 throwaways this season, super high number. His improvement in taking sacks is notable, but two things. His lack of creation is immense problem, in my opinion, because in the NFL, you're going to be under pressure. So when you can't create under pressure and you don't have any desire to either, you're just trying to get the ball out of your hand all the time, that's an issue because you're going to be in a situation. So yeah, if he gets in a game and everything goes perfect in that game,

he could be like the player of the week or something like that type of guy. Next week, they blitz him and he's in trouble. And what does this guy do? He's been hurt a million times, right? All over his tape, Greg. He's falling away at the top of his job. 10, 12 yards deep in the pocket. He's trying to get as far away from the defensive line as possible. pressure gets through even in his vicinity and he's falling off his platform he's falling away from contact the ball's dying on him he's trying to throw it away

he's panicking he's turtling up and taking a sack it's just I just don't think the negative I think the negatives are so bad with him that I just don't think it's ever going to be consistent enough in the NFL could he be he'll be a backup because for a team that hopefully doesn't need to play him that often but because I think he'll impress in all the ways that you impress until the bullets start flying

but once the bullets start flying I just think there's too many issues like the bad stuff is going to be really bad even if like on paper it makes sense that this guy could do what we want them to do but i just don't think when you get in the game there's not that same level of aptitude and stressful situations yeah you got to have a code at some point when you're evaluating these guys what's your type what do you like and to me it's pocket presence it's the ability to not panic against pressure is probably the number one thing i'm most confident in my basic eyes being able to recognize having watched all the quarterbacks that have coming into league and then especially in the league like just seeing that is the absolute number

one thing that will unravel good quarterbacks average quarterbacks below average quarterbacks it's what separates guys who have long careers and that to me was just like a cross-off for what you said like the falling off and i just i just didn't not my guy i'm it'll be someone's guy Greg Coselle had him second, and I kind of get it, where in this class, after Cam Ward, you could make the case of depending on what you like, of six, seven different types of guys. But in this case, I think we're right, because I think it's just going to be a crossout for him in terms of being able to play against pressure and, and we don't need to bury the kid. He is at 96 in the consensus board, by the way.

So he's, some people probably have him even higher than that. He might go second or third. round. All right, of the rest of the guys, and we're going to wrap up here quickly. But I will give, I just will give the floor to you. Those, I don't know if those are the consensus top five. We probably hit the consensus top four if Milrose in that. We mentioned Will Howard already, who could be a guy from Ohio State. Quinn Ewers, I feel like it's not been talked up throughout the process from Texas, but someone might like him. Dylan Gabriel from Oregon. Kyle McCord from Syracuse.

Maybe Riley Leonard, who Nate Tice is still holding out like a little bit of hope for from Notre Dame. Is there any of the other quarterbacks that catch your eye the most that you, that you like, or even just that you think you have something interesting to say about those guys? Well, McCord is probably the interesting one, I guess. I'm not really high on him. I do like Will Howard a little bit. I think he belongs in this conversation. I will say that with this kind of next group. But, you know, I mean, there's a real path to me where Will Howard's better than Jackson Dart eventually in the league and maybe Sanders too. I think like that's possible because those guys have some like potentially fatal flaws and will Howard doesn't have any of the like high-end

stuff they have but it doesn't maybe have those fatal flaws so you know it's so much of this is fit with these guys once you get to limited players you get you get in a massive fit conversations and fit questions so I wouldn't be offended by anybody who ranks these guys in the same tier I think so everybody else to me after the Sanders shook dart Howard kind of group in mill grow probably being in there too if you're just like upside yeah like he's not as polished maybe some of them yet but upside he could easily be better than all those guys if it or not it wouldn't happen easily but you could disagree with me on on my show john you can say that's a bad ragged i'm just thinking about what i would want as a backup he would be a fun backup like once you get him

you probably need about a year but a fun backup that it gives you a different look for a couple games anyways i'll shut up about i mean no i would take miller over shock for sure and i would i think there's a real path to the other guys just not being good enough and so i would be if the Steelers take him for whatever. I'll be really intrigued by that. Obviously, the fit would be weird. McCord is the interesting one because I think he was just kind of an afterthought. He went to Syracuse and the numbers were better, but still people weren't talking about now as you get closer and you start hearing people in the league talk. It's like, wait, you're going to take this guy in the top 100? Is that going on? Oh, okay. And he's a guy that can, like, if you talk about high degree

difficulty throws, he can make him and he made him more of this past year at Syracuse than we even saw in Ohio State. It was interesting. It was, he wasn't good enough to elevate the talent at Ohio State, but he didn't really need to, right? There's great talent there. So it was like, well, if he's not good enough with these guys, then he's not going to be good enough Syracuse. And then he went to Syracuse and elevated the talent there. It was really, it was very fascinating.

So just the step in the right direction and the progress that he made, I think we'll have people intrigued because there is a big arm, not very mobile. I think there's a lot of concerns he's going to throw the ball the other team all the time. And so, you know, Mitchell Trubisky's been a common comp for him. And I think it makes a lot of sense. Is there a world in which Trubisky could have turned down to a better pro? I don't think so.

teams might think so. I'm not particularly high on McCord, but to me, he's more interesting than Gabriel or Ewers or some of those other guys that maybe are going to be talked about in this range of the draft. Well, he would certainly take Trubisky's career because he'd be a mid, mid-round pick that would that lasted in the league, not that he would get the starts that that Trubisky got because of his draft status. I appreciate. There's no need to try to force it. It is a thing that happens with these drafts, with the quarterbacks, the most notable recent example being 2022. Just looking at the consensus board, which it's funny to look back at now, going into that draft, the consensus board among the draft Nix had Malik Willis 10. He's on his

second team and has found a great spot. Now he looks like one of the best backups in the league, but he was at 10. Pickett was at 15. Ritter was at 31. He's on his third team. Kenny Pickett's on his third team. Matt Corral, who is now throwing the passes at the coming was 36. This is where it really got crazy. Howell was at 46. Carson Strong was at 78. So you don't need to just push up quarterbacks just because they're the quarterbacks. And it's not like there were, you know, guys later in the draft other than Purdy, uh, that that ended up making it happen. But Purdy, Purdy did make it happen. So I, Lee Wilson is my top quarterback that year. And I think he was in the 70s. Yeah. You don't need to

force it. It is closer to one of those years. I would say this class. I will say this better. Oh, yeah. It's way better. I agree with that. I think, I think Schinders Sanders at worst is going to have a long career in the league. I'm excited about getting to watch Cam Ward every Sunday. And then I do think Milroo's got a chance and Dart certainly has a chance and some of these other guys. They got a chance. John Ledyard, appreciate you coming on. Check out audibles and analytics with Ali Connolly. Anything else you want to pump up. Because look, if you're a Bucks fan. You're probably a lot of Bucks content, a lot of Steelers content, and then you two cover the entire league. Yeah, Bucks and Steelers content. Lots of NFL draft scouting reports going

up right now on the site just published like five safety reports. Ollie and I did in-depth podcasts about the safety class and the running back class this week. And we went through our tiers and rankings and evaluation. So lots of those kind of fun conversations happening there. We'll get corners next week. We'll get linebackers coming up here soon, finish this thing out strong going into the draft. So yeah, if people are interested, You're not afraid to bury guys. You know, you just bury him sometime. I guess it's the confidence that comes with like a jaw, that's square that John is boasted here. To Bill Coward Jaw, that's it. Doesn't mind burying these young men. No, I'm kidding. I like

the honesty. You guys talk like the scouts, like the front offices talk. Yes. They're all doing the same thing. It makes sense. All right. That's it for today's show. Hit the music, Eric. We got a big week. So I mentioned we're really zeroing in on draft coverage. We got our first mock draft of draft season, maybe the last, probably the last, with Nate Tice coming up on our Tuesday show. So stay tuned for that one. We got DJ later in the week. We got a great week of guest, Nick Shook coming up to football's back.

Didn't land it. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospect. and NFL rookies. To evaluate team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters.

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