NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Ranking the 2026 NFL Defensive Draft Class!

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

Gregg Rosenthal and Ollie Connolly give you a deep dive on the 2026 defensive NFL Draft prospects. Find out where the guys think players like Arvell Reese, Sonny Styles, C.J. Allen, Keyshaun Elliott, Caleb Downs, Louis Moore, Dillon Thieneman and more will be selected in this years Draft. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Daniel Jeremiah. And I am Greg Rosenthal. I know that, Greg. We're teaming up on 40s and free agents, the podcast that owns the NFL offseason. This is where teams are built.

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really wins. Open your free IHeart radio app, search 40s and free agents, and listen now. It's a tough sport. It's not for everybody. You've got to be a little sick to love this game, and we've got some sickos. Welcome to NFL Daily, where linebackers are absolutely back. I'm Greg Rosenthal.

With me from across the sea, my friend Ali Connolly, who is a linebacker savant, would you say? Just an appreciator. Yes, we're going over linebackers. We're going over safeties and we're going over defensive tackles, all the positions that most people ignore. We're going to go deep on today, Ali.

I love it. I love when you get a linebacker draft and everyone says it's boring and I'm just sat there in my room to like seven in the morning, grinding the film, saying there's just more linebackers oozing out of everywhere. I really do believe, yes, linebackers, like we got a couple of great rookies. We got better play, I think out of the veterans last year. And I do think people are coming around to the fact that, man, having a knockout linebacker who makes a difference on all three downs.

It's like one of the most valuable things that you could have and having these two guys at the top of the draft. I know it's big for you, some background. What is your background with the linebacker position and scouting specifically? Well, early in my scouting career, I did seven years exclusively scouting linebackers, digging everywhere.

Does Penn have one? Does Harvard had one? Is there anyone available to be drafted by the league? That was the bulk of my scouting career was focusing on linebacker play. That's awesome. And that's why, yeah, this is really the Ali Connolly draft.

I hadn't really thought about that. And so let's just get going with the top of the board. In general, we can talk about it's a deep class. I think we'll get to that. And it's what you want out of like a fully loaded class at a position, which is there's some superstar talent at the top. There's some fun middle class talent. You know, we could have more first round linebackers

and certainly a bunch of day two. And then there's also depth. But the reason I think for the casuals out there are that Arvel Reese and Sunny Stiles from Ohio State are right there at the top. And I think just to start the show, let's just note we're including Arvel Reese in our linebacker podcast. You feel strongly about this, Ollie.

Why is that? I feel strongly about it. First of all, let's just note. Those two played together, and it's maybe the most absurd linebacking tandem we've had since like the hurricanes were rolling in the 2000s. It's just preposterous. And I know he wants to.

be considered an edge. I know plenty of evaluators to consider him as an edge. I think if you just go through the film and grade skill by skill, whatever your grading scale is, mine will be four to nine traditional NFL stuff, that the highest marks you give, those nines, those eights, truly elite-type traits, map up to the linebacker work, whereas the things where you have maybe some question marks, more so in the refinement and the technique than just the traits and the athletic skill, is in the straightaway pass-rushing stuff. And there's a lot more development that needs there technically and he's just solely reliant I think in the past first game on true athleticism, just speed, power, speed to power and kind of winning a short edge and now athleteing people,

whereas there is such immense technical refinement for someone so athletically gifted as a true linebacker. And I think those skills match up so perfectly with what he's being asked of linebackers today. And I think a little bit of the scouting parlance that's going on through the draft season is looking at linebackers in the bucket of the 2010s, even back to the 90s and what they were asked to do and what the requirements were, versus what a lot of the elite guys are being asked to do in 2026. So in this idea of what a linebacker is,

you're not ignoring that he could be very valuable as a blitzer, as a pass rusher, essentially in the Zach Bond mold. I don't know if there's another comparison of like how you see him being used, but you see that as a linebacker, which is different than I think how a lot of people are viewing them. Yeah, I think that old school style,

which Sunni styles is more, built in which is you sit off the ball, it's really sift and find work, the front gets fractured, they kind of work through the space, they go and find the ball and attack that way, and then it releases, blitzers, the odd mugged up look, blitzing from depth. I do think R. Valeries can be a core part of, like, the pressure group, and you move them around and you find matchups, if there's like a clown at right guard that he can just kill for 20 reps, you just send him to go do that for 20 reps. But the way the league is playing right now with so much movement and motion from the offense, you've got to find ways to address it, and what the best DCs are doing is

having an off-ball linebacker who walks down to the edge and plays as an edge defender on early downs, then you move them around either in coverage or in the Blitz game and moves me around the formation defensively. I don't know why you wouldn't take the guy whose skills are so suited to that and say, we could have the best one in the league. Zach Baum was most impactful player in the league two years ago for the best defense in the NFL. Nikimun Worry did similar things in a slightly different body type but safety, we could have that with maybe the best athlete to ever attempt to do it. Why would we not try and get the force multiplier and race ahead of the league with someone who just has a completely different level of athleticism to someone

like Zach Bowling. Yeah, and I just don't buy, like he's helping your password. I just don't buy that somehow, you know, the positional difference, let's say with David Bailey, who's just more of a pure past stretcher, is going to be the difference of like maybe why you would take him ahead of Arvel Reese. When I watch these two guys, Reese and styles, and I do want to just stick on Reese for now, despite the testing numbers, which for Sunny Stiles were just completely outrageous, but they were outrageous on its own for Averill Reese. When they're actually playing football and you watch Reese on the field, to me he's more obviously like, wow.

Like he just, just the way he moves and that's how my basic eye looks at it. Watching him is like, okay, like I don't think. think you have to be that smart to want to take him to overall in this particular draft. If you're the Jets or if he falls to three to me, I keep seeing tackles to the Cardinals, why wouldn't they take Arval Rees? They absolutely need a lineback. And if he falls to the Titans, why wouldn't they take Arvall Rees? They could absolutely use him just because there's only so much crazy next level talent

in this draft specifically or in any draft. And it just looks like on paper to me he has that. And on film, what do you see from that angle? of just being a difference maker. Oh, there's a difference maker. I think the diagnose and attack feel is completely off the chain, the take-on skills,

the competitive toughness, the range, the tackling. It's like all the minutiae of the position, I really do feel he does it an elite level. Then it's wrapped up, as you mentioned, in this Uber athlete. And usually when you're going through the draft, you bounce between the two rides,

like, okay, this is a really technically proficient player and you get some of these zooming lineback as you played in less complex systems. This is a guy who played in an NFL system with NFL communication, he's playing on the edge on early downs for the most part. He's playing the NFL role that I'm describing. Then they back him off the line of scrimmage or move him around in the pass-brush game.

I don't know why you wouldn't just adopt that position one-to-one, which is what the league is asking for anyway. So you can kind of designate it however you want. You can call him an edge defender. You can call him a linebacker. I think he's going to play in those multiple roles irrespective. As the offense moves, as they go through heavy personnel, you've got to have erases on the field where you're not having to substitute all the time

and go through different personnel groups and tip your hat on what you want to do. got to have these kind of hybrid type players. And to me, he's just going back through recent seasons, it's really hard to find a player who had that overwhelming a linebacker skill set. And I just don't understand why we're trying to force him to be a out and out edge defender to say, hey, he can be this dominant pass for shit. And if he is a dominant pass for shit, that's great. I'm all good with that.

I'm happy to say it. Wonderful. He's a 12-sack-season guy. What a great time we're all having. I just think there is such value in that degree of force multiplication. if that's a word, by having this kind of movable piece at the second level, who can go and play on the line of scrimmage. I'm going to get you and Daniel Jeremiah together next week on 40s and free agents.

So you're going to get ready to make this case to him in terms of the positional value. It is interesting, though. I hadn't heard, is he selling himself as an edge that actually worries me a little bit? Because it's almost like I heard the Yahoo guys, Nate Tyson, Charles McDonald, they do a good job. And they framed it as like, they wanted to ask him, well, how do you see your next? five years. That, that kind, that does, and I think that's fair to maybe wonder how he sees himself. It is, but I mean, go look at Devin Lloyd's contract and then go look at the ed rushing contracts. Would you not try and sell yourself as an edge rush? And if you've got the athletic traits that

beat someone out of their stance, just straight speed off the ball, not quite the David Bailey rate, and I don't think that he's got that quite, that kind of first step quick. So there's a lot of real technical issues. It's just a straight pass for sure. But if I was going into league and now it's that kind of special athlete, I'd say, let me try the really, really, really, very, valuable spot. They'll still use me the way that I'm describing is the offball linebacker, but they'll call me an edge. And then when we get to franchise tag territory or we get to contract discussions, I can get the big time money. He literally could be one of those players that helps, like, change pay structure. If he's as good as you think he is, as we think he is,

where a guy like that gets paid more. And Zach Bond started the process. Because if a guy like Zach Bond can get the contract that he gets, I think a player like Reese, if he's a, if he's as good as we hope he's going to be, we'll show the value of that position. I heard you say, go ahead. The last thing I really do want to touch on with him is I think this idea of putting him in the edge bucket, it's almost narrow-minded,

where I think the skills are so overwhelming that he is the kind of guy you structure the defense around. Maybe you're not a team that uses a move linebacker right now. Aaron Glenn, the Jets, they don't use this kind of hybrid linebacker type, but if you get him in the building, you will be doing yourself a disservice to not have Zach Bowen on Super Ser.

It would just be foolish coaching to not try and play the game this way. If you just try and say, he's just going to be a wide edge rush, and we're going to let him go after it, and we think there's going to have a three-year development plan. He'll be better in 2027. I just think you're doing yourself

and the player a disservice. Now that I think about it, I was thinking he's the smart, he's a good pick for the Jets at 2, and they're thinking a little bit more about 2027, supposedly, and like he might have the higher ceiling, so they might take him. but is that a good fit for him

for the Reese fans out there? Not really. Although this week, I don't know if you saw Ollie at the coach's breakfast, Aaron Glenn said they're going to be multiple on defense and working in some three,

four principles, not just static. What do you think? Let's go. I think he's saying if I get Aavell, we'll do whatever we can to move Aval around. I'm into the idea.

So Ali had Reese, I believe, as your highest rated linebacker prospects since Luke Keekeley? Is that correct? Yep, that's correct. So where is Sunny Stiles then on that spectrum? Because in a normal season,

and certainly the last handful of season, I'm going back to try to think about who's been the best recent linebacker prospect. I would imagine Sunny Stiles would be ahead of all those linebacker prospects and very high on this scale too. He just happens to be in this draft with his teammates. And some people, like Daniel Jeremiah specifically,

have him rated ahead of, Reese, so it's kind of pick, pick who you like. Yeah, and I think it's pick the play style. Reese is more in that vintage mold of off the ball, see, ball, get ball, kind of clang and bang in the middle of the line of scrimmage. He's got unbelievable range in coverage, which Arvell Reese, it's different. That is more of a pop and style. Styles you're saying is more the traditional one, you mean. Stiles is more of the traditional one and has just more coverage range and more coverage chops. And so if you're valuing that level of coverage, it really comes down to what you value in the pass rush game

with a kind of movable linebacker and early down front structure which I know is boring but is essential to coaching staffs and then if you're just more of one of these the Texans, the Niners, the Titans now it's a pretty static, it's a pretty traditional front you're playing kind of four or three football

and you need a dominant linebacker and someone you can play all three downs and carry someone in coverage and your ideal linebacker is just Fred Warner how close can we get to Fred Warner styles falls more into that book it to me. And I do think with him, because of the athleticism and the power, there is untapped potential as a blitzer. It's just, that's more projection than what is evident on

the tape in college. I love what you hear about him as a guy, as a student of the game. And do you think that shows up in terms of the way he plays? Yes. And I think it's going to make the transition so much easier. I think this position is a three-year development position now. There are so much on these guys play. The defenses are so multiple. The offenses are so sophisticated. I think you see that with all the starters now. It's a lot of guys you forget about who go in day

day two, day three, and then all of a sudden they're like five years starters, but they didn't really kick in until the second, third year of their career. I think him playing in a full NFL communication system, that is the most complex thing for these guys to wrap their head around. Most of the linebackers who come into the league are terrible in coverage. You just got to live with that. Most

guys are not good coverage guys. I think he can be a day one plus coverage player which is a super skill that most guys walk in the league just aren't going to have they're going to have to find their way

there overtime. That is the stuff that is really tricky for them to pick up and takes that second, third season to get to I do think he can hit the ground running in that way

which very few guys can. And look, I think the combine workout and you see it sometimes when you're watching him not as much. He seems a guy who's just he's in control

and he's going to make the play and he's not asked to be like sprinting down the feet like he he does seem like if if if I thought about like I don't know who the comp would be at linebacker but when we talked about Travis Hunter for instance a year ago where like the game seems slow for Travis Hunter that he can adjust his speed like that's another level maybe Sunny Stiles has a little bit of that to him he does and if anything at times I'm like can we give the guy some smelling salts he's got knockout power I would love him to just take over a quarter a bit more than he does do I would like a little bit more thump in

tenacity, but there is no disputing the technique and the violence when he's really getting after it. And so I just don't see, if you go through its skill set by skill set where there's any degree of downside, it would have to be some poor scheme fit off the field thing. I think for him to not, at minimum be a plus starter. And I think that with the coverage range he has is a former safety converted to linebacker. The history of those guys, recent league, who are actually at linebacker size, is a way better hit rate than just traditional linebackers and then trying to get them

to pick up some of the coverage stuff. And he played safety for a long time. It's not like he was a one-year guy and then switched over, played in multiple systems, played an NFL defense. So I'm really confident that if you take him third or fourth overall,

you at least will be able to say, we've got a six-year starter and then the ceiling is, how close can we get to Fred Warner? So I did go back and listen to your guys' show, and it's interesting because you tape linebackers first, just because you love them so much. And it was early in the process.

It was before the combine. And back then, like, people were not talking about Stiles necessarily getting taken in the top five. He was 12th or so on the consensus board. And now it's very much more of an open conversation. Reese is still number two on the consensus board. But when you look at the top guys and the mock drafts, it's more of a conversation where Stiles could go anywhere from two to ten. I mean, you never know because he is a linebacker. Whereas kind of early in the process, I don't know what change.

Maybe it just was the comment or maybe it's just people catching up to like, hey, go where this draft actually is and this is where the great talent is. You guys were kind of talking about them that way to begin with, but maybe the consensus at the time

has changed in just two months. Well, I fall for the linebackers hard. And when you see almost like a perfect technical linebacker who's that athletic, I fell pretty severely in week one against Texas and it just carried on through to early in the draft process.

I think we're starting, Giles, where teams would have him ahead of Arvel Reese is just you do get to see more of the traditional linebacker player and almost perfect level in college. And there is this untapped potential, which the combine gave to us as there's so much burst off the ball. If he did just play in a really attack-based system, if he went to the Cardinals and they really want to just still get after it as an attack-based defense with Nick Rollis, is there more to his game in that vein than we've seen so far?

Whereas with Arvel, a lot of that stuff still comes on the edge. and even with the crazy explosiveness, he doesn't always play to that tempo. So I think with styles, there's just more certainty in the traditional linebacker play for the teams at least with still that feeling of

he could be a difference to make it behind the line of scrimmage. And certainty is always a tricky word this time of year, but it does feel like there's only so many prospects in this class that have that feel

that most everyone agrees about him. I would even include Ruben Bain and Cardinal Tate in Caleb D'S, in different ways in that bucket, different levels. But Tunney Stiles is one of them. And it's just like, go where the draft is. And that's at the linebacker.

One guy whose consensus spot has fallen quite a bit, actually since you talked to, I thought was interesting, is C.J. Allen, I'm a little surprised by that. So C.J. Allen, the number three linebacker in this class. And from Georgia, you know, great profile, extremely productive. seems to me like he has a pretty high ceiling. And I don't know why the consensus has fallen on him a little bit, but he's an interesting combination of ceiling,

I think, in floor, an exciting player in his own right, which, again, to repeat the Sunny Stiles point, wouldn't be maybe at that level, but would be the number one linebacker, I feel like, in a lot of classes. Oh, yeah, in most of the class of the past 10 years, I think he'd be one or two pretty comfortably. He's more in that short, thick.

built the Kobe Dean type mold. Georgia certainly have a type, but he more than anyone is out to take souls on the football field. He just wants to hit everything that moves. He plays, I think, ahead of himself far too often. I think that will drive teams pretty bonkers as they dive through things. And I know there's all the reports out there about, hey, he called the defense. I mean, if you go watch them actually play, they're rarely lined up correctly. They're consistently misaligned. Sometimes the play isn't even in. So I don't think it's like a benefit to him to say, Hey, he was calling the defense, not just checking things to the line of screw. It's like, well, why are they a mess then if he's calling things all the time?

So I think there's a lot of development need. I think he will be on that kind of three-year arc, but he undoubtedly has unteachable athletic skill. So I gave you a little bit of a project here. I don't know if C.J. Allen fits into these buckets. Like, do you have a player who is better, you think, than the consensus board, where the consensus board is at? It would be Keishon Elliott, my beloved. from Arizona State. I know I keep talking to you about him,

but I think that I don't know where he is... 135 on the consensus board. And he was 380th in February. So he's making a run there. So I hope NFL Daily has helped with that. The people have got eyes on Keish and Elliot. Now, I think to me he's a compact rundown player, plays with intellect and power.

He looks to me like all these starting linebacks in the league where it's not these crazy high-end explosive traits. And people go and chase those all the time, particularly in the second round. And then you look in your... two year three go where are they or they're playing on teams oh they're not getting on the field anymore and teams are more comfortable saying most of these guys aren't great in coverage can we at least be solid in the run fit and then can we kind of mask them with a really zone-based

defense there's a lot of split safety looks there's a lot of coverage protection and he just me fits that mold he is really really smart I think though he's not a great athlete he actually is active and alive in coverage and picks things up pretty well and then it's just a muller around the box, just kills people over and over again, one-on-one in space. So I think he's got all the traits of a starting linebacker. I would take him comfortably on day two, but based on where the consensus board is, at least it wasn't in Feb, I guess he's rising now. Maybe he won't last as long as I thought.

Well, that is late fifth round, Arizona State, Kishan Elliott, and it just shows you how deep linebacker is that he's listed as like linebacker 15 or so right now. know you you like the depth of this class, but who's a player that maybe is in that middle tier? Because I think there will be a decent amount of day two linebackers taken. And I'm guessing this is where this guy comes from, a player that you're kind of lower on than consensus. The one I struggle with is Anthony Hill from Texas. He really does look the part and I'm open to just being completely wrong on the player.

But there's just a, to me anyway, he's 6.3-243. He's going to be 20 years old. So it's like the perfect profile. If you can get him in the second round where I think he will go to invest that time in two, three years and then become a full-time starter. And he has the athletic profile to play in basically any system that he wants.

I just find him to be so lacking in a lot of the technical details. I think there's a slight whiff that he's not always engaged in the fight for someone that big. You'd like to see him take people on and really bring the thunder over and over again. And to me is the kind of like generic football question of block destruction, take on skills. Are they taught?

How much is it technique? How much is it the mentality of the player? I think that the number one point on the hit list before you can get to some of the skills involved is just they want to play violence. It's a contact sport. It's a collision position. How much they want to take guys on one-on-one when we're really getting after it. When you're facing an all-pro center, when Creed Humphrey is firing off the ball, are you willing to give it right back to him? and there are real great flashes of it off the tape.

If you go on social media, you'll find four or five clips and go, wow, but consistently over and over again, you've got to bring the fight for 70 reps. It's just not quite there for me, and I just wonder if you can really develop that over time, or if you give someone $20 million, they say, well, this is a pretty good payday. I don't really have to go throw my face into the fire every day.

I mean, physicality is a trait, right? I mean, that's something you look for, especially at this position. Kind of compare him in T. And C.J. Allen, because it's interesting, again, kind of going back to this draft. process, you know, back in February, I think the idea was Anthony Hill was going to be battling for that kind of linebacker three spot. And maybe he will. And the league will wind up liking him.

And him and C.J. Allen were both ranked a little higher. They both have fallen a little bit. Whereas I look at Jeremiah's top 40 and there's a huge gap between those two guys. He sees C.J. Allen. And I do find Jeremiah tends to reflect the league pretty often, or at least a certain type of organization in the league. And he has CJ Allen as a top 20 player in this draft. Hill barely cracking his top 50. How do you see kind of the comparison of those to the physicality that Alan brings? And I know we kind of short shrifted.

If I did want to get into like the ceiling of it all, because he does feel like a guy who's very exciting to watch and maybe is getting mislabeled a little bit as like a lower ceiling player when he does have a lot of explosive potential. Like he is a fun guy. to watch. He might be the, almost as fun as watching the Ohio State guys when I checked him out. He's just, he is kind of a blast to watch. He is. He's more frenetic and out controlled than those guys. I think those guys know what they're doing every single down. I'm not sure he's always sure.

He's often pointing things out to teammates that are just flat out wrong. It makes me cackle watching him as like the leader of the group and he's just getting things wrong all the time. But man, when he arrives, he just kills people. He crushes them. He chases everything down. The range is off the scale. the play speed is off the scale. He is in that more shorter, stouter, pocket rocket-type mold. I always fall for those guys. I just can't help myself. I always fall for the guys who are 6-1,

but play out the 6-4 and just bring thunder to the point of attack over and over again. Yeah, like, and he's covering a lot of ground. And I know you're saying sometimes he didn't know, you know, the plays right. But like a lot of his profile, when you hear him talked about, almost feels like he's like, you know, the gruden grinder. It's like the smart, tough, reliable guy.

But I see a guy that's running all over the field. So that's a great combination. Maybe he's like the next London Fletcher or something. I agree with that. I think he's almost too eager to make plays. He'll get caught in the traffic and all that kind of stuff. So I think there's just a subtlety to his game that's lacking. I think you can refine that.

And that's what the two-year, three-year process, rather than try to tap into someone. Do you want to really get after this every single day? I think it's easy to try and refine someone who plays with real violence and aggressiveness and it's flying all over the place and tried to funnel that in. And if you get him into one of these systems

where he's just playing off the ball and playing cleanup duty, I think someone like the Saints, where it's a lot of 6-1 stuff where he's just the one linebacker off there, just run and chase, run, see, hit, and then go and play good coverage. I think he's,

there's more quality stuff in coverage, I would say, than there is truly the take-on skills. Now, he's super aggressive and that stuff can be coached up, but he can really move in coverage in a different way and cover a ton of ground. I think he's ideally suited for where the league's at right now. I haven't graded out as a quality starter.

I've not had three guys with quality starter grades in, it has to be 12 years, and he's the third guy in there. So I'm with DJ on that. I think he's way higher to being in the top 20 players in the class than any of the guys on the list. Okay, so you have him then third. Who's kind of in your next tier of linebackers

putting you on the spot? here. Well, I have Kishon in that list. In the solid starts here, this is where the real meat of the classes. I love Jacob Rodriguez. I think by the time we get to draft now, I'm just going to close my eyes and move him probably to fourth, maybe even as high as third. I just can't quit the guy. I have Kishon Elliott and that list from Arizona State. We've got Josiah Trotter. We've got J. Golda. I have Anthony Hill in there for the reasons I mentioned there are still real talent in there, just I don't quite fall in love with the player. And I've got Kyle Lewis from Pitt, who's this kind of weird, malleable.

Is he a safety? Is he a nickel? Is he a linebacker? I'm not sure he can play a linebacker in the NFL, but he might be the most electric quickest player in the entire draft class. And I think he could carve out a role as one of these hybrid players moving around the formation. Okay, Kyle, Kyle Lewis is, you know, projected again, like a high third round type of pick. You mentioned Jeremiah Trotter's son.

Isn't it like a little bit of a red flag that he has the same sort of profile? as his brother who just came out and his dad and that's not the model of like a modern linebacker and his brother you know hasn't really played much i really like the brother i think jeremiah trotrude junior is really really intelligent he just doesn't quite have the athletic skills i think of what is demanded particularly the league don't seem to like them that much you know they're not they're not playing them that much i accept that but how many guys are being let go blake cashman was let go by the jets goes and starts for the teams that's just the way linebacker play is is, I think, at the moment.

Josiah is a footballing lunatic who really struggles to find the ball, but is interested in running through every human's face who comes near him. And he is a really, really potent bullets. His brother does not have that level of first step speed and kind of feel navigating through in the past. So he can, I think, be a positive on third down, whereas brother is kind of a rundown-only type player. Got it.

Yeah, the point-and-shoot type of guy. What do you think about the criticism for Rodriguez? I know we're bouncing all over the place. You know, Nate Tice, for instance, thinks that maybe he's not in it for the, in the fight enough, enough physicality for Rodriguez. That's a fair criticism. He's more of a bouncy dance between the cracks type player. You know, the kind of buzzword, all the coaches use these days, which Jesse Minter brought to us all is block destruction. And when you use that verbage in your mind, it's someone just smashing someone, right?

It's two-hand punch and stack and shed. It's absolutely Dante High Tower, number one guy in the board. But there's more to it than that. There's throwbys. There's eye fakes. There's different ways to defeat the block effectively. And I think he's got so many tools to his back to just navigate through space and to navigate around people.

I think he's probably more of a coverage first, drop him into zone coverage, sprint all over the field, go find the ball and get it. And maybe he does have to be more of a sub-packaged guy for you. But those are the more valuable downs now. The actual, we're setting a heavy wall, you've got to throw your face into it, are fewer downs. If you can play all three, that's when you move into the tier of Rvel and Sonny, and I think CJ Allen can get there.

He might be more coverage first, racing around all over the place, and then over time could he become like an Aziz al-Shayah type player, if you can get a bit more tenacity out of him? I think that you could look at that. But he is just an incredible playmaker. I think some guys just know the sport, see it, feel it. the volume of plays on the ball, the amount of times he's undercutting plays, jumping plays, he's understanding a down-distance situation, all the punchouts, all the game-breaking plays,

I just think that he's going to make a whole bunch of plays. To me, he smacks of a guy with a really high national identity where everyone knows him, he's making a whole bunch of plays on Red Zone every week. He's playing for the Jags or whatever. It's like, wow, another punchout from Jake Rodriguez. Then the PFF scores come out, and he's in like the bottom 25. linebackers in the league. The down-to-down consistency is not what you're looking for,

but there's a whole bunch of game-breaking plays. Like, like, Peek-Devin-White or something? Peak Devin-White is a good one. I like that. Shout out to Devin-White. Still making those cycles. It's crazy. Seven, I just counted on the consensus board,

like seven or eight day two sort of prospects at linebacker. Do you have any favorite comps? It could be, give me a, a positive anna or a derogatory one or both um i'd say kyle lewis as like a jeremiah oosu karamoa oh that's good is he a linebacker is he a safety can he do in a different frame some of the imam warry jayl and petri stuff where he's playing nickel some snaps he's playing weak side linebacker some snaps then we can do all these fun rotations where he's firing out to the half field he just moves differently now he has

Very little interest in tackling, and it is a contact sport. It gives me deep concerns. But if I just imagine, if you go into someone like Steve Spagnolo, the volume of what would be on the menu would be different. And if he just turns out to be really talented in coverage down the slot, even if it's just taking away Titans, he's got to be on the field. And you're going to have to try and live with the ups and downs. If a team can force him into the box and run at him over and over again,

you're just going to have to live with the downside. I got to watch him. I mean, if he moved like Osukoramo? I mean, talk about a guy who moves different and it was obvious pretty early in his NFL career. J.O.K. was like that. There's almost a Ivan Pace type movement where the explosiveness off the ball is just jarring. And then he's really, really slippery, kind of laterally bouncing around. Now, you do get to see him go up against Jeremiah Love where you're seeing Sequin like movement skills.

And he gets put on like three posters, a little bit concerning. You got to face Jemar Gibbs and Bejohn and. at Seguan and Jeremiah Love as well in the NFL. But he played in a really complex system, and he was kind of a pivot player. They would move around to be the problem solver. So I think there's a little bit of JOK. And even JOK, where the league's at right now,

you question, can you live on the field and all three down? So I think he's going to be a pretty specific player. But he's one of those guys where whoever gets him, clearly will have a vision for how they can use them all over the place. A bit Leo Chanel-like, something in that vein. And so I think I've just come around to it. The chiefs are taking him. forget about the profile anymore.

He just makes a ton of sense for them. Oh, I love that. Maybe round two, round three, something like that. Harold Perk, probably round three, if we are to believe the consensus. Harold Perkins is a guy if there was a draft after his rookie season at LSU. Might have gone in the top 10, right?

I mean, he was like the next big thing. And now he's projected 122. I'm ending the linebackers on a downer note, But just as, again, as a casual, it's like, what happened here? I know it sort of fell apart, but is there any hope here for a guy who was that productive early in his career to fall off that hard? It just shows you how long the draft process is. He isn't.

If Belichick was still in the league, he would take him in the second round. He loved those guys. You know, the high-end high school players who had the great one season and maybe they fell off a bit, he would bet that he could coach it up. He just is, I think, too small to play. threw off the ball linebacker, and then with all the movement stuff, we discussed with Val Ries,

can you play on the line of scrimmage? He cannot. He is crazy, crazy explosive. More of a straight line mover than they kind of flip the hips and turning coverage, so it's all straight ahead, which is why the testing numbers

are off the scale. And if you're Brian Flores, or the Falcons, and we're mugging up seven guys and we're just going to rip off the ball, he has O.S. Speed, and you need O'SB to be able to work in those systems. So for one of those teams as a package player,

I think there's a possibility Again, it would be that Ivan Pace type situation where there's 10 unbelievable splash plays and then a lot of it is pretty rough the rest of the go around. It's just how much you value that in a class with seven guys who could be truly solid starters. We just need more Floress.

I guess Durante Jones maybe could be that guy for Washington just to take these mismatched pieces that could be great in a fun defense and get the most out of them. See, he is not a mismatch. It's just pure speed and the speed is beneficial. There is no power.

He seems often confused by the fact it's Saturday, let alone that they're playing football. So you're betting on, well, someone has to get off the ball so fast, everyone panics. And that's what we're paying for. A deep, fun class. We could do linebackers all day. But let's take a break. Let's come back, talk about a really good top end of the safety crop and the defensive tackles in a minute.

I'm Daniel Jeremiah. And I'm Greg Rosenthal. And this is 40s and free agents. The games may be over, but the NFL. NFL never stopped. This is my favorite part of the calendar. Yeah, mine too, Greg, free agency, the combine, the NFL draft, pro days, trades. This is where teams reshape their future. This is where Daniel Jeremiah makes his money.

On 40s and free agents, we break down every move that actually matters. From my draft evaluations, mock drafts, and team fits to my top 101 free agents and how real rosters are built, cap space, contracts, and all the tough decisions included. You got quarterbacks on the move. We've got teams rebuilding. It's hope season. Yeah, absolutely. It's hope season.

We'll tell you what's real, what's noise, and what it means for your favorite team. Smart analysis, real conversations every week. I don't know about the smart, but definitely analysis. Listen to 40s and free agents on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Back on NFL Daily. My last show, my last few segments before take a little time. Time off and go see the parents. We've been cranking daily since training camp started,

but we'll still have you covered next week. Jordan's got you. Shook's got you. Ali and Daniel Jeremiah's got you. But yeah, I feel a little bit like my kids in the last few days before spring break, you know. You are the teacher for me just playing like a movie for me to watch. I'm just enjoying your analysis. So thank you, Ali, for carrying me.

home. Just repeated Kyle Lewis tape, send you off on your way to your parents. Oh, no. Forget Kyle Lewis because I think you're true beloved in this class. Why do I always, like, confuse the two names, the safety from Indiana. What's his name? Oh, Lou Moll.

Oh, man. You spent 25 minutes on Louis Moore. Wow. On your show, and you know, I've directed people to it when you've been on the show, but if you're really into the draft and you like this kind of coverage and would want to expand the read optional, Ali and John Ledyard.

I'm going to just break contain here and actually start our safety conversation. Give me the like 60 second elevator pitch on Louis Moore before we get to the big dames, a guy who's like projected to go like in the middle of day three, but you believe has a lot more to him. I do. I mean, he's tiny and there's going to be questions of. Is he a nickel? Is he a true kind of on the shelf safety?

I think he's quite got the lateral quicks to go and down playing the nickel spot. I think you need real physicality to play there at the high level in the league right now. I think his brain just functions at warp speed and you can just see it over and over again, not just kind of reading and jumping routes, which is the most obvious stuff, but just kind of shutting down reads really quickly in the progression, understanding everyone's assignment. I just think he operates at a different pace, and it's weird to me that I just watched Indiana run through everyone's face in college football.

And now I'm hearing when people are knocking Mendoza Well, you know, the defense is really good It was really good and those playoff games, defense is really good And yet I'm looking through the draft And I can't find an Indiana player Who a team is falling in love with It was DiAngelo Pons, but is he too small Aiden Fisher the linebacker, another really intelligent player

But he can go on day three, not athletically good enough It's like, didn't these guys just mall Alabama in the Rose Bowl? Didn't they destroy Miami defensively? Didn't they destroy Ohio State And the Big Ten Tats game defensively And none of these guys are viable enough to go and play on Sundays.

Someone has to be good enough to play on Sundays, and I think that if he played in a re-blankenship type role, we're not talking about a superstar here, just a backside safety with free reign to go and find the ball and make plays. He works a different speed to everyone else, and he's a guy I would want to my team. 25 years old, but you called him the best go-line player in the country.

That's 221 on the big board. I'm going to be following Louis Moore. If you listened closely last year, we asked Ollie for just a deep under the radar type of guy that he loved. And one of them was Efton Chisholm, who made the Patriots roster as a hero to many small whites in New England. And who knows, who might have a fun career. If nothing else, he contributed to a team that made the Super Bowl, which is a great result

for an undrafted free agent. It's time for charging into the offseason presented by Apple Card for all your game day purchases. Let's go to the top of this safety class. Really the top three are all expected to go in the first round. What kind of impact do you think Caleb Downs can have right off the bat in his career? And kind of where do you put him, assuming he's number one at safety for you, compared to the rest of the entire draft class? I think he's number one safety to me.

I think just overall in terms of the fundamental and having the fewest negatives on the report, he's the number one player in the draft. Whether he has the playmaking upside of someone like a novel, recent sunny styles, I think it's fair to debate. And then the positional value that falls into that too,

I would value a hybrid lineback is slightly above a hybrid safety in terms of what you can do structurally. But I see flash of his game, you know, people talk about him, I think, in different ways. I see elements in how he is used and there's the pivot point of the entire defense

and what they wanted to do on a unit that had probably four first round picks, he was the centerpiece of everything they tried to get to defensively with a Super Bowl champion defensive coordinator. That does matter to me. And I think there are flashes and usage of Abuja Baker

with more of a Brian Branch play style, is how I put it, where he's kind of a slot, he's more fluid than explosive, whereas Buddha's a bit blurrier, a bit more explosive off the ball. But there is real intelligence, there is unbelievable tenacity and get after it type stuff, unbelievable technique,

and almost everything he does, he's pretty flawless technically. And so it's difficult to go through and try and find something to complain about with the player. Yeah, and a guy who you saw in multiple systems, you know, before Patricia got there at Ohio State, obviously was at Alabama early. I think that's huge.

I always thinking this is more of a broader question for you, but you can apply it to the Caleb Downs however you want, that the breadth of the, career in college tends to get overlooked a little that like the years should and I know you want a player to develop of course but you should if you see high points earlier in the career and his ability to adapt in different systems to me that that is a huge plus in the earlier years I feel like should should matter a lot especially if you see something good and then maybe it's not there quite as much at the end of their career certainly if a DB played for the most sophisticated

the complex defense and all of football under a complete genius in Nick Saban and he was the linchpin of that defense then he goes to NFL DC playing in an NFL communication system he's a lynchman of that defense that kind of matters to me a lot I do think you can get your heart broke

by chasing the freshman year that has happened all particularly in the second round is where teams usually bet on that stuff and sometimes it's just the player got found out the player didn't develop and you're just going back to betting on athletic traits that were always there which is why they were

high-end recruit, which is why they started as a freshman for good school anyway. So I do but a little bit more emphasis on the most recent year, unless you can find a staff change, a system change, a positional change, or the player explains it away. And when you say that, when it just in terms of the lack of negatives and just cleanest prospect that he could be as as good as number one, it makes me think. And everyone seems to agree on Caleb Downs. You never know. There's always disagreements about different players, but he seems like that Kyle Hamilton type that everyone knew was going to be good. Linderbaum actually just kind of thinking of that draft was similar to that too. Everyone was kind of like, why is Linderbom falling to him? Caleb Downs feels like that.

He could be that guy if he does fall. I don't see why he would in this draft. And yet, I don't know, we tend to do this at safety, we being the NFL, and I do work for the NFL. I think it's in play. I think it's in play from to go as low as whether it's the Cowboys or even beyond that. I think it depends on old school mentality versus new school who's running the building and whether people are drafting

to archetypes of players of what they view as a first round pick versus who can be the most impactful for us and have kind of first round value playing every down at a high level would be first round value to me it's why I don't get caught up in the positional designations

as much other people the only position I give extra grading points to to inflate the number is quarterback because it's clearly the most valuable one. Other than that to me it's amass as many gubernation

players as you possibly can. And I think Downs, he's not quite Hamilton because the length difference is pretty vast. I don't think he's as good deep in the field as Kyle Hamilton was coming out of Notre Dame. And so that impacts the grade slightly. And I think first round safeties, particularly from that old school mindset, is if the guy's not making plays in the ball from the middle of the field, which doesn't happen in the league anymore. There's like three guys who can do that and you're just lucky to have one if you have one.

Teams aren't structured that way anymore defensively. but I do think that's still hanging out there that if you're not the kind of ball hawking guy from the middle of the field, how valuable can you be as a safety? And as you said, we go through in this Hamilton and there's Bryant. Everyone's like great football player,

but he's got to go in the second round. You don't take slots safety hybrids in the first round. I would take a dominant slot safety hybrid as soon as I can get them. Cooper de Jean, Brian Branch, Jalen Petrie, Kyle Hamilton seem pretty important to some of the best groups in the NFL.

I mean, if you're redrafting, all those guys go top 15. Cooper DeGine might go top 10. In this draft, let's say, if you could somehow mind-trick yourself into like knowing the career. Like, Cooper DeGine's a top five player. So, yeah, why not Caleb Downs? I love that. And maybe the league is coming around because they did give out a lot of like three-year, $39 million contracts to safeties this off-season with a lower ceiling,

but a high floor of guys that were available. That's charging into the off-season presented by Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the wallet app today and start earning daily cashback on all your game day purchases from tickets to tailgate munchies to merch, subject to credit approval. Let's talk about a superlative I'm going to give out, which is the weirdest scouting note of maybe this entire draft process, which is the fascination of Emmanuel McNeil Warren, the Toledo player who is in the mix to be the his second safety, along with Dylan Thineman from Oregon, and both of them are probably first round picks. And his obsession with his mouthguard and just always playing around with that. Have you ever seen anything like this, Ollie?

Once I discovered it with McNeil Warren, and it's every single play. There is something wrong with the helmet. There's something wrong with the mouthguard. He's chatting to the official. The ball is snapped. He's still putting the mouthguard in. Ball will be mid-flight. He takes the mouthguard out.

He puts the mouth guard. card back in. Once you see with him, you see with Zaki Wheatley in this class, there's like three or four guys. I don't know. There's something going on in the water where the safety class just does not want to play with the mouthguard. I know if it's like vibe or coolness or it doesn't fit, but it is preposterous and frustrating and genuinely impacts his play in a way that annoys me. Speak to that a little bit. Like it delays him a little bit. The ball will be snapped and he'll go, oh no, the ball's in play. Let me but my mouth guard in. We're now two beats into the rep.

Now he's crazy explosive, all sorts of juiced up. He can make up the time. But I think it speaks a little bit to attention to detail, focus in the game. And that focus is evident, I think, just generally in coverage. He's a massive gambler. He makes an unbelievable amount of plays on the ball. But a lot of it is gambling,

rather than reading, reacting, and processing, understanding, I think, what may be coming his way based on down distance and situation. And it's just, I'm off the ball. I see it. I trigger it. and I'm a better athlete than everyone on the field. Even when he's playing Kentucky in the SEC,

he's just a better athlete than everyone he's going up against. So I think that allowed him to get away with some bad habits. So him and, as I mentioned, Thineman, are in the mix to be the number two safety. He is fun to watch. I mean, you can just pull up the tape of all the forced fumbles McNeil Warren had, and there's a million of them, a lot of punchouts. A big, big, good athlete. I don't know if he quite passes my moves, different threat.

But he moves well. He just you look at him and you're like oh yeah, that's an NFL player. He will be like I just you can you can see it. Who is your choice between Those two and in kind of where do you think they they fit into the larger picture? I love the enemy I think Oregon sometimes it's hard to tell with his profile he plays in such a specific system that is Not unique to them but they're the guys who push it to the limit the most I would say where it's a lot of three safety stuff and he's playing in the middle of the three safeties and they really pack the middle of the field intentionally to try and offset a lot of the RPO work that's happening in college football. So just the geometry of the field becomes really narrow

and it's nothing how you would play in the league where you're playing on half the field and you've got this wide aperture to kind of keep focus of everything. So it's pretty narrow situation he's playing in. Then when you go back to Purdue, I think he's almost even better at Purdue than he was at Oregon and he's playing all NFL safety stuff at his half field, it's post safety.

He's not around the box as much. Oregon, he was effectively in August 3 linebacker for a lot of the work they did and he was flying around everywhere, making a ton of plays, outrageous range, outrageous athlete we found out in testing. I don't think he quite plays to that speed all the time, as he did as a tester, but at Purdue,

I think you get to see more of the traditional safety work he would be asked to do in the NFL. I just think that the work there was better. To your point earlier about digging back through the guys in their previous history, you find a guy booked it into a certain system. Can you go and find him playing more in the role he would be asked to play in the NFL? Fortunately, with Fian, you get to see it. And I think the work was actually better.

Well, and you also, it's a skill set to be able to pick up and fit in two different systems that's going to happen in the NFL. You're very likely going to have two different coaching staffs on your rookie contract alone, like unless you're drafted by, you know, the Tomlin-Harbaugh era, Ravens and Steelers. I guess you can get lucky and hope that that happens. Yeah, he's an interesting guy where he just, The Anamon, where he feels like a rock solid pick, but he's a testing freak, which is like a nice, like a nice combination.

He has shot up the contentist board over the last couple of months. I think the idea was, these guys were going to go in the second round, and the enemy might have been deeper into it, and now I think the consensus is they're both going in the first round. And look, I

heard legit whispers that I think was a little bit more of dot connecting that, like he'd go highest Cincinnati, which is... Cincinnati, I know, loves him. And I think the question for them is the kind of core crop of potential or pro players are going to go,

plus Mendoza are a quarterback. And then it becomes a pick who you just love after that. And maybe someone falls to them. They won't expect him. Maybe Bain, maybe Bailey. Maybe downs. You think they would take downs.

I think they would. Downs, I think they would take downs too. But I think as they kind of game plan it out, they think, well, what if that happens? And then we've got 50, players and we got to pick the guys we just love. And then we're thinking about positional value. I think they're so in love with the enemy and it would be hard for them not to just pull the trigger. And given what the class is like, we're going to get shockers. This is what happens when you

get these kind of draft classes and it wouldn't shock me necessarily if they decided to go that way. I hate thinking about just this year, but there's only so many defensive backs. Linebackers even, but they're not going to, I don't think they probably should be drafting at linebacker, but like, I don't think they'll be looking at. CJ Allen, although that's not the craziest idea with the roster that they have, but they need guys that can save everyone's job and help the defense this year. And so I think the Edomend could be that guy. It's not a bad fit. Let's move on to the defensive tackles unless you have just one more safety take, whether it's positive or negative. You just need to get out there.

You've spent all this time. You said something, you try to watch all these guys, right? You try to watch. What is your process, actually? I'll just ask you that. Uh, watch every player, every snap. Every player, every step. So define every player because you can't, like, they're, in theory, there could be 400 players. So where do you get to with every player? This year, probably it's going to be about 260, I think. You can, you can leave that out there.

Man. 260 every snap. Four five games isn't enough? Uh, it depends on the player. If there's cross-off guys where I'm like, it's just not for me, then I'll just cross them off. If someone tells me there's a medical flag on a late round guy, I'll cross them off. But for everyone he's going to go in the first four rounds, there are thereabouts, yeah. This is why John asked me this too, and you've got to say it's a superpower to not have children.

As everyone else is having like fun, successful, fulfilled, meaningful lives, I am in the cave watching safeties from Missouri. You're younger. It's something people don't want to talk about in general. In some ways, the job actually is easier with a loving family and children. My son right here is in the room, just giving me a fulfillment that I couldn't otherwise have, which makes it easier to do my job. On the other hand, it's a huge time drain, and it makes your job way harder when that happens. You have to be able to do, you suddenly have two jobs, and one of them is, as all-incumbensing,

and more important than your actual job, that it actually, yeah, but no one ever wants to say that because it's like, you know, it makes you sound ungrateful or it almost sounds like hitting out at the people like yourself without having it. But what I like that we're recognizing, Ali,

that's just an advantage. It's like analytics. You're taking advantage of the system. Yeah, all, I'm, you know, deeply sad mad. Stop. Stop. Don't you feel, though, and now we're way off track.

considering I got to get out of here soon. I got to get on that plane. Go see Tom and Debbie in Massachusetts. When you're watching like a seventh round safety, let's say Bishop Fitzgerald of USC. Have you watched that, by the way? I have watched Bishop Fitzgerald. When you're into like game six of Bishop Fitzgerald,

don't you just think like I've had enough or no? That's how much you love ball. Deep within this, I think it's just a love of ball, which is pretty good. Yeah, a love of bowl. And I care about being accurate. and I think it's just cheating to watch five games and say you've got a full complete picture of a player and that you're going to then go out publicly

and start addressing like what a team did in the draft when you haven't had the full scope of evaluation that the team has put the effort into doing. Is the team watching every set? I guess they are, if someone like you is they are, of Bishop Fitzgerald. I would hope so. Someone on the staff is watching every game of Bishop Fitzgerald.

Okay. I don't know. the process. I'm always really fascinated by other people's process, certainly within the NFL, but also in our industry. So I hope listeners like that conversation. And yeah, it's great, like the juice that you get from finding a guy that you love in the deep rounds like Louis Moore. But I was just handed a piece of paper that says officially, as we were playing, my son is now the number one player in the world in Wii Tennis, according to the rankings. You see, and wouldn't you rather be handed that note than watch Genesis Smith's eighth game for Arizona?

The fulfillment that that gives me, that I have a success that he's made it. I'm Daniel Jeremiah. And I'm Greg Rosenthal. And this is 40s and free agents. The games may be over, but the NFL never stopped. This is my favorite part of the calendar. Yeah, mine too, Greg, free agency, the combine, the NFL draft, Pro Days, trades. This is where teams reshape their future.

This is where Daniel Jeremiah makes his money. On 40s and free agents, we break down every move that actually matters. From my draft evaluations, mock drafts, and team fits, to my top 101 free agents and how real rosters are built, cap space, contracts, and all the tough decisions included. You got quarterbacks on the move? We got teams rebuilding its hope season. Yeah, absolutely.

it's hope season. We'll tell you what's real, what's noise, and what it means for your favorite team. Smart analysis, real conversations every week. I don't know about the smart, but definitely analysis. Listen to 40s and free agents on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get to the defensive tackles. And if I've been, you know, spending some time here, it's only partly because I don't know what to say about this defensive tackle class. I'll start this way. There's like a big group at the top and no one can really agree.

It's four or five players. Peter Woods from Clemsons in that mix. Caden McDonald from Ohio State. Caleb Banks with his very unique frame from Florida. There's Lee Hunter from Texas Tech. Kristen Miller from Georgia. All five of those guys could go somewhere in the late first, maybe somewhere in the second round.

Do you have a favorite of that group? And then on top of that, Do you have any of them graded as first round players? No one grade as a quality starter. It's a lot of big run cloggers and then sorting through, do you think anyone's got the juice to maybe be a three-down player or in that second band you're referencing there? It's really light players, upfield rushes,

and you're trying to figure out who quite has enough mass or understanding to just play all three downs for us. So it's a lot of rotational players, and then it's just how you value which part of the rotation, the rundown, I think, versus obviously the passing downs and just trying to figure out who could be that crossover player. And that makes it really tough in the evaluation process. The one who has probably the best chance at doing that,

if healthy is probably Caleb Banks, I think, of just kind of fusing the two together. Unbelievable talk off the ball, unbelievable power in his hands. Just the foot problem is a massive concern. It's very similar to Johnny Newton, just keeps fracturing the foot over and over again. Obviously, on traditional size 666, 6.67 for an interior player,

so the pad level and technique is pretty skew-if. And then he just goes missing for massive stretches of games, even against bad competition, where you're the biggest, fastest, strongest guy on the field at all times. He buries great competition, just one-off snap. It's almost Chris Jones-like how quick the wins are inside. Why is it not arriving 10 times a game against bad competition? So he's the one who's probably going to break your heart

where the GM's like, I just feel it in my bones. If we can get him in the building and our building and the right system, it'll work out. And in three years, you're wondering why you drafted the guy. He was the one during the Combine I'm watching and they show some of the highlights. And then I'm just like, wait, how is this guy not a top 15 prospect? This is awesome.

This is cool. This is a guy to get excited about if you were an NFL GM and you've got, let's say like a late, like an early round three pick and these guys have all fallen or late second or something. Who is the one

you know kind of with how defenses are run now where you just feel like he's going to be a solid player he's going to help our team I'm not swinging for the fences here but he's going to be my guy

that's going to help us maybe even get a second contract for us I love Dominique Orange from Iowa State the big citrus big enormous nose tackle but I think he can move better than a lot of

lot of these other guys. I think Lee Hunter's more of the the run plugging guys who are going to go in the second round. I don't quite understand why he's in a kind of different category on the consensus ball. I think he's in the 80s or somewhere like that. And Hunter and some of the plays about yeah, Orange is not in that five pack that I mentioned who were all between 25 and 47. Although the people that I trust more, I feel like are bucketing them more 35 to 50 to 55, something like that. But yeah, you're right. Dominique Orange, big citrus. What a nickname. That alone.

It's unbelievable. Yeah. That's it. Come on now. He is, there's not that much of a distinction to me with someone like McDonald, who I think will be the one who sneaks into the back in the first round where you're saying, big, like Ty Lee Williams with the lines, big run-clogger, is there maybe some pass for a source we could tap into over time, even if it's just knock back power or walk back power and it kind

of helps everyone else win and he just kind of has a big presence in the middle line of scrimmage. I think Orange has got real lateral quills. for someone as big as big as he is with the big heavy anchor, hold up the point of attack, allow everyone to eat on early downs around him. But the motor is outrageous. He drops out into coverage

and he drops out and he blasts running backs in space. So if you're looking for, okay, who's just got some under the hub movement skills that weren't quite a central part of the defense he was asked to play in? And just maybe there's a Tim Settle-like arc in there where he's just in the rotation is a nuisance whilst the star players go win off the edge over and over again.

Dominic Orange is the one I would bet on. Okay. Tim Settle like Ark. Tim Settle did get a surprisingly good contract, and every team that has them is like, man, I wish we had Tim Settle back whenever they lose them. So it's a totally fair comp, but also kind of shows where this defensive tackle class is at.

Peter Woods, I want to get your opinion on him, just because the Clemson product, I think initially this is where I think the league told, the draft next that like, no, we're not really that into him. You guys are into him. I'm not totally sure why ranked super high, like if you were looking at in-season rankings from a lot of the drafting, even January stuff. And now it's settled back to the pack. I don't know if you have any Peter Woods of Clemson Tuck. Who could still be a first round pick potentially. Yeah, I think that's still in play because one of these interior guys are got to go. I'm going to get the Seattle, New England,

Philadelphia effect that those teams were built with internal pass rush and like waves of those players. And so teams are going to try and chase it. The Lions tried to chase with a play who was not that anyway. It was like, we got to take him. We need internal push. Woods is crazy explosive off the ball. He is a small fellow for someone playing inside. He's built like Murray's Hurst with that kind of quick twitch off the ball.

Describe small fellow though. What is his size? 6-2-998. So you're looking there. I mean, that is small, that is in the bottom 5% of defensive tackles drafted in the past decade. He shed crazy statement on this sport. What a weird sport. It's a weird sport, but it's a size and power position, and he just has the speed.

And another guy who goes missing for long, long stretches, and can he really live on those early downs, or is he a situational pass rusher? And do you draft situational pass rushes in the first round in the draft? and even with situational passers just playing inside in the NFL, it's a speed to power position, not just a raw talk off the ball type situation. So he kind of falls between a bunch of positions.

I get why people fell in love with him. It's just unbelievable explosiveness for an inside player. The production is really poor. The production fell this season. He was a unanimous top 10 selection a year ago, and then the production really declined. And there's motor concerns too. He just slows down during games

and slow down throughout the season. Yeah, to bring it back around. to where we started the conversation. I feel like Anthony Hill was a guy people thought might go before the season, top 10, top 15. And then you get more data, you find it out, you watch every game.

You know, I hope you don't see what I was saying about watching every game as a criticism. It's a respect. And I think what people don't get about that. It's not about it, you know, being robotic about it. You got to have a real deep love

for the game to go that deep. How do you do 20 minutes on McNeil Warren's mouth guard if you're not digging through every game. That's why we do the read optional podcast, the way we do it. It's why we do seven hours on six safeties. It's just the way we do it. Yeah, I had to bring up.

That was like the most amazing note. And it is the right way to do it because I did the QB index for so long and I never understood, you know, the only way to evaluate it was to watch every single throw every single week because if you miss, to me, a 17 game chunk or 16 games back in the day was like the best way to evaluate a quarterback. If you miss an entire game or stretches a game, like it's just,

it is a totally different picture. That is how it should be done. I have to admit, though, and it's the worst part of me as a draft, as an analyst in general is sometimes when I'm watching, for all the draft prospects, once I get deeper and deeper, I always think like,

wouldn't that be better spent just watching NFL tape right now? I could just be one. Because that's how I know I'm not a real draft, Nick, like you or like a lot of them. I have said this to John before. I do think there'd be great value in a team in just having someone watch the 10 or 15 best plays of a player, putting their own board together,

putting it in an envelope, and then three years down the line, open the envelopes. Because I think you can massively overthink the players and you can start juicing up things against either lower competition or just had a good game or the game plan was excellent. The player wasn't a function of it. I think if I was running a building,

which will never happen unless there's the London Jags and Tony Khan is feeling, you know, very kind. Then I would employ someone. probably Greg Rosenthal to say, just watch 10 clips of every player. Put that board together. We'll put it in an envelope. And in three years,

we'll open up and find out every row over thinking this stuff. Yeah, you can do the same with the like the consensus board just drafting off that in general. But what fun would that be? My only thing is for some reason, I'm like watching this as like, man, I'm like itching to get to like the Kyler Murray tape from that.

I just, I'm already like getting a little itchy for NFL football and want to go back. But we'll spend a lot of our offseason talking about that. Ollie is the best at what he does. Great way to cap the week. Let's hit that music. The next time, you will hear from us on the feed.

It's going to be a different us. The kids are taking over the show. As I mentioned, when Jordan was on the show from the owner's meetings, it will be Jordan, Roderig, and Nick Shook in the feed on Monday. I'm heading to Massachusetts. The draft series with Ollie is not over yet. We'll do that on the other side. See you then.

I'm Daniel Jeremiah. And I am Greg Rosenthal. I know that, Greg. We're teaming up on 40s and free agents, the podcast that owns the NFL off season. This is where teams are built. Free agency, combine, pro days, trades. Every move matters.

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