NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Rethinking the Dalton Scale

Episode Date: December 8, 2015

A room filled with heroes - Dan Hanzus, Gregg Rosenthal, Chris Wesseling, Marc Sessler and Colleen Wolfe – discuss the latest news from around the NFL, including the Rams firing offensive coordinator Frank Cignetti and quarterback Johnny Manziel getting his starting job back with the Browns. Then, the heroes take a hard look at the “Dalton Scale” that measures franchise vs. non-franchise quarterbacks, and discuss whether or not Dalton has performed well enough to have a different QB replace him as the league “prime meridian.”Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comNFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. The Around the NFL podcast. Sleeps in the soft fur of Andy Reed Stash. Welcome back to another edition of the Around the NFL podcast. My name is Dan Hansis, and I am joined by a room filled with heroes. Mark Sessler, Chris Wessling, and Greg Rosenthal. What's up, boys? Hey, Dan.

Hi. Also joined by the queen of NFL now. A lot of people are calling you that now. Really? That's a new thing. I haven't heard it yet, Dan. That's weird. And also, you know, a great friend of the show, a regular hero herself, Colleen Wolf, the Wolf Woman.

What's up? What's Colleen got to do to get into that little intro? You know what I mean? I know what you mean. Connie Fox. What does that mean? Well, like, you know, the Sizzler, Mark Sessler, Chris Wesley, you know, just right off the top. She always looks a little.

I feel like she gave her special truce. treatment, though. It's sort of the special guest at the end of the credits where they, you know, it's a big star. How about this? We'll use this show, you know, looking ahead to next show. Whoever out of Wes, Mark, and Greg has the worst performance gets replaced

by Colleen. Okay. Permanently. In the intro. Well, wait, why aren't you eligible to be replaced? She's actually a host. Well, that gives me that... Wait, you don't think I'm a host? No, I'm saying she... Well, all right. Well, all right. Well, that's outrageous. If you think I'm showing up to work on that day, that's good luck to you.

The best thing about Mark and why I love Mark is that that was a real reaction right there. Yeah. Even though he brought up the total nonsense. No, Mark, you'll be in the intro next week. Don't worry. That was all a joke. This is the Tuesday edition of the Around the NFL podcast. We are back as we start looking ahead toward week 14 with one last glance at week 13,

which will be that Monday night football classic. I'm just throwing around the classic a lot. but this one I don't believe when I say that. The Cowboys and Redskins played in Landover on Monday night, a game that was one of the worst football games in recent memory for 56 minutes of regulation time and then became real exciting football. So we're going to get into talking about that.

Do you not agree with that assessment, Greg? I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it from front to back. This is a Matt Castleite over here, though. Yeah, but you are, and this is a compliment, Greg. You love football to the point that, you know, you would rather, you would watch like some CFL preseason game and be like, I love what I'm watching here.

It's just the NFL, but you're right to a point. Well, it was close the whole time, and it was tense. There were things going on. Trading field goals is really exciting. Yeah. And Connie Fox with your Eagles leanings. Yeah, we'll get to that as well. Our Philadelphia background, a big game for the Eagles who somehow are still in the mix.

So we'll get into that. I've got some news to talk about. so we'll do the news as we always do and uh something west and i west you brought it up downstairs before thanksgiving we talked about uh the dalton scale and uh you know which uh west what would how would you describe the dalton scale again well for the last two or three years it's been quarterback purgatory if you have a quarterback above andy dalton you have a franchise quarterback if your quarterback is below andy dalton you need a quarterback Right. So for years, Andy Dalton worked.

Famously, I don't have a great grasp on the Dalton scale in general, which makes us a messy exercise for the old Zucer. But Andy Dalton has emerged as a legitimate MVP candidate in 2015. So it is time to say goodbye to Andy Dalton at the Dalton scale and find someone else to slide in as the new prime meridian. And that's what we're going to try to do. I'm not going to say we're going to do it. We're going to try to find that quarterback today.

We might have to come up with a new. word for the Gabbert zone, too. That's just a little thought for everything is being torn down. We've got to throw out the fork because that's a disaster. We have to basically tear this sucker down and rebuild. We're the around the NFL podcast, rebuilding. Renovating, all sorts of stuff. Renovating is a nice way to say it.

And finally, we'll look ahead again, like I said, to week 14, the Thursday night game. The Minnesota Vikings travel to Arizona, Glendale, specifically to face. the 10 and 2 Cardinals, the team of around the NFL, so we'll talk about that game. So all that coming up on the show, but let us start with the Monday night football game, a game that, oh, there it is. Not as good as the primetime music, but it is what it is.

The Dallas Cowboys stayed alive in the NFC East, a 1916 win over the Washington Redskins, a game where really 18 points scored in the first 58 and a half minutes, and then things went haywire. The teams had 17 points on those last 90 seconds. Deshaun Jackson fumbles a kickoff return or a terrible, or was it a kickoff or punt? Pun. Fumbles it after a terrible decision recovered by the Cowboys.

They go ahead. D. Jacks gets some redemption, ties the game with a touchdown on the ensuing drive, but then Dan Bailey bombs a 54-yarder. That was the difference. So the Cowboys win 1916. After all this, Cowboys still in last place, but one game out in the NFC East with four to go, it is absolutely incredible.

And there is a three-way tie atop the division of five and seven. Chris Wessling, you wrote up the piece on around the NFL. Last night, I know you are a vocal Washington Redskinskins supporter. This had to be disappointing, disappointing setback for the West. I am not a Redskin supporter. I just think the rest of the division is crap. So I always say give the Redskins a chance.

Did you or did you not say that they would have no problem in this game? You assume there was no chance that they were going to lose this, right? Well, yeah. I mean, it's the Cowboys. They stink. And yet they were, I thought it was, it's a bad sign for the Redskins. The Cowboys turned it over three times in the game. And yet still were the Redskins were stuck in this situation.

Yeah, I mean, the Redskins can blame. I felt like Kirk Cousins got confused by all the stuff. Dunson Blitz's, and the offensive line was definitely confused early on by them. But special teams, when you lose, Dustin Hopkins misses a 43-yard field goal. You get the Deshawn Jackson Gaff, and then on the last play, you let Lucky Whitehead return at 46 yards. So all you need is two short Matt Castle completions to put yourself in field goal range. It was a special team's meltdown.

Are there any other type of Matt Castle completions? He had a couple good ones. I mean, that one to Des Bryant was a big play, the one to Terence Williams. He certainly had, yeah, as many good throws, if not more, than Kirk Cousins. I don't think it was about the quarterbacks. To me, it was about two teams that are the same. The Redskins are no better than the Cowboys. The Cowboys...

Well, their record says they are. Yeah, but we know we watch... Their name is Les is sneaking out again. That's because you cut out... All year you try to put the Redskins on the same level with the Cowboys, and the Redskins have been better all you. The Cowboys have lost, you know, six or seven games at the end. They got a break or two.

They'd have five or six minutes. Oh, my point is none of these teams are good. They certainly didn't look like a mismatch between a team that's better last night. If anything, the Cowboys looked like the better team. You mentioned the special team's gaps, but the Cowboys did the same thing on their kickoff to set up the Kirk Cousins' field goal. I mean, the Kirk Cousins touchdown, like the whole thing was just a comedy of error. All I kept thinking about when I was watching this game was it's such an NFCE game,

especially in the beginning when they just kept trading field goals. And then Des Bryant, how angry he was, he wasn't getting thrown the ball before that big completion. I think he had just like two incompletions until what was that like the third or fourth quarter. Yeah, I watched the, I actually had a friend in from New Zealand and I'm convinced we were poisoned. I think we were poisoned at a restaurant because I don't remember how the night ended, but did not watch any of this game until today. And I came in and I asked, you know, Wes and Dan and Patrick Claibund from NFL Network, what do I need to focus on here for this podcast? And they basically all said, just scrap the first 56 minutes of this thing. watch the end.

It's a great way to watch football when two teams like this are playing. The entire NFC East is a corpse and they need to reseed playoff sooner than later. I think that would be a good idea that why should the winner of this division get a home game against a team like the Seahawks? Why not just seed by record?

What's the problem with that? Who would object to that? I mean, other sports were doing that. The Panthers last year, I mean, what they went seven and nine? I guess there wouldn't. Just make a 16-team NFL. see then well you're guarantee i think because of the rivalries and the schedule and also you're

guarantee i'm not saying don't have them make the playoffs i think that's fine that they make the playoffs so that so that's a big part of having a division the winner still gets in but why should they get rewarded with a home game for winning seven games that's fair couldn't agree more any other thoughts on this game colin shon lee he looked really good in this game he was all over the place i thought and to marcus lawrence yeah they had they had the best two players really in this game. I mean, the Cowboys looked like the better team. McFadden loses two fumbled. Devin Street, they outgained

them. They lost... Not by much. They lost... I mean, it was two bad teams. Yeah, it was two bad teams. But they lost three fumble. And we're tied. Oh, you're bending over backwards to give the Cowboys credit. I don't think they're a particularly good team and they're going to lose this week, I believe, against Green Bay. And I love the... And none

of this will matter. NFC East Heat in this room. This is like a bad division. But I will say, I mean, the Panthers, what? When 7 and 9 last year got that home game and then won a home game in the playoffs so crazy things happen in the NFL and if you really want to you know really want to get drastic about it you don't even want any of these teams in the playoffs at all forget about home game or road game because there's going to be a better team or a more exciting team that's going to be missing out when any four

of these teams make it I mean look at what the giants did that year when they got in as the wild card by this time last year the panthers had turned into a good team and we're starting to kind of galvanize Not by this time. They were 3.8 and 1. But they were about to. But you could see, if you're watching them play around this time last year, you could see their defense getting a lot faster. Well, that would go against my argument.

Let's say if you win a division but you have a losing record, you don't make the playoffs. And they put in the next best NMC team. That would create a very exciting final week where the combinations of the scenarios would be outrageous because if a team gets to eight wins, then another team gets knocked out. That would be good for you, Rosie.

That would be exciting. I'm just surprised that the Redskins can't run the ball at all with Morris and Jones. I got totally stuffed. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm seeing here that around the NFL podcast has made Awful Announcing.com's top 10 best sports podcast of 2015, number eight. Nice. It's good. What an honor.

Are you not satisfied? Well, just competitive nature. You want to be higher up on the list. But at the same time, you know, thank the academy. I appreciate the gesture I'd like to see who is ahead of us and I think that we'll set ourselves on destroying them something called Talk is Jericho

starring a wrestler Chris Jericho is above us so we got to listen to that get some notes about what he is doing and trying to think is kind of a culture snob Jericho is like a very popular guy within that world and he's a charismatic act like you listen to his podcast I haven't yet

assignment for Dan's one of things I've realized over the past couple of years making the top 10 lists every week. Lists are overrated. As long as you're on the list, you're fine. That's true. I like that. Hey, Sydney, La Seed behind the glass. How are you?

Doing well. Good, good, good. It's always good to see you. Oh, thank you. That's so nice of you to say. You're doing a real great job behind the glass. Thanks. Brandon, too.

There he is, Brandon behind the glass. Laughing like Jimmy Haslam on that Thursday night. It's Buffalo a couple years ago. Let's do some news. Sure. This offense ain't mega. You know it. And keep Johnny football.

There's go. Gary Barnage, he went straight into the office and said, listen, man, it's enough. Isn't this Austin, that's crap, this Austin Davis stuff? Come on, it's right, man. Get in there. Get Johnny in there. Give him a chance, man.

Where is this man from? It's mega. Is that a British person? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to encourage. I just, I'm Gary Barnage. I'm a free agent after this year. You think I'm sticking around if you don't put joint football in the game? Is he cock?

me it's got like a little Californians to it too looking yeah exactly that's great he he was born in bowling green Kentucky Dan so that's what the internet tells you I have been to bowling green Kentucky the truth is is that he's from England let's do some news uh let's start listen this will be like a a little episode of disgruntled rushing champs club and we'll start with saucy yeah we'll start with with Adrian Peterson, who is the best of the group.

So we'll talk about Adrian Peterson being unhappy. The Seahawks obviously laid waste to Minnesota on Sunday, a blowout win for the defending conference champs. And Adrian Peterson, maybe the Vikings would have a better chance if he was the center of their game plan. He wasn't eight carries 18 yards. I'm sure the fact that Minnesota fell behind by a bunch of points played into that. But still, it's inexcusable, you would think.

And also, this is not the first time. has come up back in week one, Adrian Peterson voiced his displeasure about not getting the ball enough. He had this to say about what happened on Sunday. You definitely want to be able to go out and establish the run and let things feed off of that. So the finish were eight carries. You know, it's tough. They were just a better team. You know, they were more aggressive, play more physical, and, you know, they out-coached us as well. Ooh, the famous out-coached line, Mark Sessler. Well, I got banged on this game because I picked Minnesota thinking, you know, it was a potential hero pick.

I've outsmarted all my fellow analysts here. They'll be friends with the subreddit. Well, no, not at all. And at this point, I'm not sure I'm picking the Vikings again because they have a tough schedule. And their chance to win these type of games was to unleash Adrian Peterson. And then what they did in this affair was an absolute head scratcher. He had 18 yards. That's the lowest of his career.

You heard how frustrated he was. And like you said, it's not going to get any easier. The Cardinals, they have the number five run defense. They never had a chance in this game. Right. And I don't think it was the coaching. It's just they got outclassed. Adrian Peterson, I know Greg was really impressed with the game before,

and I heard a couple of people say he's running just as well as he did in his 2012 MVP season. He couldn't beat Cassius Marsh to the corner in last week's game. In 2012, that doesn't happen. I always think these he didn't get the ball enough. stuff gets overrated. He had 18 yards. He was terrible. It was every time they gave him the ball, he wasn't terrible, but the whole team was terrible. They were wildly inefficient. They didn't have a crazy run-to-pass ratio at all. Teddy Bridgewater only threw the ball 28 times. They only passed the 30, they didn't get past the other 36-yard line once. So it's just no one was

advancing the ball at all. Their defense is so banged up too. That was a big part of it. That was part of it. Bordrell Patterson had himself a nice day. Yeah. The offense was so bad, though. They ran the ball 16 times and threw it 28 that's not crazy at all for a game where you got blown out bad which begs the question why don't they ever try to use cordarral patterson more well and why do they it is a legitimate question i know you want to move on dan why they don't build the offense a little more around bridgewater that everything is in well now he's seeing ghosts in the pocket is behind center not in shotgun and so it's all geared towards adrian peterson behind the curtain dan has been trying Yeah, I'm watching steam come off of parents.

In other rushing leaders of the past news, DeMarco Murray, according to a report from Ed Wurder of ESPN, DeMarco addressed frustrations with his offensive role with Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie during a team flight. Murray played just 14 snaps and had eight carries in the upset win over the Patriots. Pat Schumer, the team's offensive coordinator, had his press conference or his press availability on Tuesday and evaded any questions about Murray and tried to brush it off like it wasn't a big deal.

But, Wes, this is something that you've been saying for weeks and weeks. There's a reason why the Eagles might be getting smart to this and going in other directions, right? Looking back on it, I think this is the worst free agent signing in the offseason. It has sabotaged their team because you are now loyal to a player who hasn't earned it. He hasn't earned it with the Philadelphia Eagles. He hasn't learned it in the locker room. All other running backs have averaged nearly five yards per carry, Demarko Murray is averaged 3.5.

And every time I watch him looks like the slowest running back in the league. But at the rate of Chip Kelly is going, is any player going to earn it based on the fact that he just keeps bringing in all these new pieces and letting pieces go? So how is anybody ever going to earn anything? I think that's a fair question. It's not the way to build a successful NFL team. The way you'd build a successful NFL team is to draft and develop players. Five years, $40 million, $21 million guaranteed in March.

I agree that it looks like a bad deal, but two words for you, Dwayne Bow. Yeah, but the Browns were smart enough to bench him right off the back. They didn't feel beholden to that contract. The Eagles did. Well, Kelly, moving forward, I don't think Willfield beholden. I mean, he already wasn't in this game. Kenyon Barner, who fumbled the ball, is in the game at the biggest moment of the entire season for the Eagles. Darren Sproles had 35 snaps.

DeMarco Murray had 14, and that was from the first quarter on. I think it was partly a matchup thing, but I think they decided they're going to have less Murray. Do you credit Chip Kelly with realizing that Murray isn't the answer? Do you blame him for sabotaging your season? You could be in first place in the NFC East by a game or two if you started Ryan Matthews early in the season. And they're going to get Matthews back, it looks like, so that'll be interesting to see if Murray's snaps go down even more.

And finally, Lashon McCoy, not complaining about his role, but he is a former rushing champion as well. And he really, really wants his bill's teammates to play hard this week, harder than usual with the Eagles coming up on the schedule, the running back, made sure to let his bills teammates know exactly how important Sunday's game is. Here's what Boobie Dixon said. I love that there's a Boobie Dixon in the league.

Today he walked in the building full of juice, full of energy, gross. He walked pretty much in a lot of guys' faces and just let us know he need us this week. So I can't wait, man. I'm excited. So, J.D. wants to walk. Don't play for the postseason.

Play for personal vendettas. It's surprising. Not at all. Everybody remember his party, girls only? Oh, yeah. I don't think that went off. Did it? La Ravila Magnifico, right there.

La Rado de la Magnifico. It's facing. You can't have a freaking party and only invite women that you don't know and have them show you that you have to submit. You're going to dress them too. You dress them, who knows what they were going to be dressed like, and you had to send in like a photo and I think like a blood test. The vetting process.

It was a total vetting. What kind of celebration is Shady going to do if he drops like 150 yards in Philadelphia on the Eagles? That's a great question. I look forward to it. And he's running well now. He kind of looks like Shady. He's playing great. You miss him.

You miss having Shady in your life. I'm over everything. Wow. You and Marks are going to walk in a meadow together. I mean, they're back in it with this Redskins loss here, the Eagles. Are we talking about the NFCs? They got a bat. They got a chance again.

Greg, you are the champion of the worst division of our lifetime. that's fair all right moving on uh this is a tough one to even get into uh the st louis rams uh coach jeff fisher announced monday that he has fired offensive coordinator frank signetti uh assistant head coach offense uh rob boris takes over for signetti signetti has been overseeing a rams offense that has regressed week by week helped not at all by bad quarterbacks. I mean, that's why the offense coordinator, in some ways, I look at it like a hitting coach in baseball. It's like you're banging this guy for not getting the offense to play, but you don't have a quarterback. It's beside the point. Frank Signetti, not running the offense, still potentially a detective or a private eye.

If you read Mark's Heroes and Villains column, he's been updating us all season long on Signetti. But as far as football goes, he's out of job. This is very sad news. How is the case with Regina Francois? What's her name? Regina Jane Francois. I mean, I had to be honest because we've had a source inside the team that's given us Signetti tidbits all season. And they, I mean, I think that you could see this move coming from a mile away because they've been unhappy with him.

But he has gone absolutely and completely dark since the firing. And there's no inside team source on him at this point. No idea where he is. He's out of a job and off the case? I can't tell you anything more about it. I don't know where he is. I'll tell you something about Frank Signetti. because we had to fire him

because he's the hero the NFL deserves not the one it needs right now so we'll fire him because he can take it because he's not a hero he's a silent guardian a watchful protector the dark night

wow well that puts it all in perspective yeah I wonder if you materialize this ever again is that you threw your paper for everybody listening you threw the paper you were reading off of and it nearly hit Greg in the face nearly did but then it landed right next to you very and I picked it up because I still need the paper actually

for other things in the podcast so he turns in his gun and badge but maybe he's got something else going on I think so yeah another another person for Jeff Fisher to blame. Exactly. We talked about that on Sunday, by the way.

It's not Jeff Fisher's fault. He hasn't been in a top 20 offense and points or yards for six seasons. That he hasn't had a top 10 offense since 2003. That he plays. It's nothing to do with Jeff Fisher. It's all Signetti, the guy he hired. Racing to the podium on Sunday to bench his quarterback, you know. You heard Jeff Fisher say you can't blame anyone.

Right. He's out of answers. And he said something like 12 touchdowns in 12 weeks or 6. 16 touch on in 12 weeks. You can't just win. You can't win like that. As if it's. And that's been Jeff Fisher football for a decade plus.

So good point, Jeff Fisher. In other news, quarterback news, Johnny Madzell. He was grounded, of course, by his parents or the Cleveland Browns organization for a couple weeks after his Austin nightlife experience went public. That punishment is now over. He will start for the Cleveland Browns in week 14. Rap sheet reported Monday. that he will be the starter against the Niners.

Mike Petten, or the team then confirmed it on Tuesday after kind of playing coy throughout Monday after the news had gotten out. So, you know, here we are. Guys, Johnny Mansell, he gets, unless he messes up again or gets hurt. Four games now to show us if he can play a little bit, a little too late, if you ask me, Colleen. But, you know, now he's going to start. He should be starting.

There's nothing else to play for in Cleveland. Well, I mean, from the beginning, they shouldn't have started Austin Davis in that second game. I mean, what's the point at this point, really? You're trying to see what you have in Johnny Mansell, but it's been so on and off and up and down that how can you really tell anything? I think Mark will tell you it's dysfunction in that organization. Yeah, and I think it's a clear sign that Petten has lost one of many power struggles in that building,

and this is the latest one. And, you know, I think this was Petten or this is Petten wanting to go out, probably going to be gone after the season. on his own terms, and he can't do that because it's an organization that seems to be run on a cabitty-based in a committie way, you know, with a bunch of people and too many voices, and you hear stuff that even the team president is involved in football decisions with no football past, and he's sitting in and watching game tape with coaches, and it's ridiculous. I mean, there are some talent people in the building, but when you're not on the same page,

this is what you get. This is exactly what happens when you have too many cooks in the kitchen. when you have people looking in and making decisions that shouldn't be making decisions. Well, his quote on Monday, when they asked him, is the building unified? And I don't have it right in front of me, but he said not 100%. When losses like this happen, you know, people start having their own interest. I mean, to just say that and put that out there, and I respect him for being honest. He's just telling it like it is.

you don't hear that from an NFL coach too often. Not at all, and especially when you hear that the problem's been going on for a lot longer than the past month, and Farmer and Petten both always, at least vocally, talked about a unified front, and that is the first big crack in the armor, where I think Petton, his demeanor in all these press conferences is a defeated individual.

I just think he can't. He has no power. And finally, some moves of people getting let go by their teams, The Seattle Seahawks have cut cornerback Carrie Williams who signed a three-year $18 million contract that included a $3.5 million bonus in the offseason lost his starting job in week 11 after getting picked on relentlessly across from Richard Sherman.

So the Seahawks cut their losses there. And the Eagles part ways with Miles Austin, the veteran receiver who obviously, despite being a good locker room guy from what everyone says, there wasn't much left in the tank at all. I can't believe he lasted that long. Yeah. I mean, every time they tried to throw him the ball, he couldn't make the catch, ever.

It's like the number one part of the job description. Pretty much. I don't want to give the Seahks too much credit for having a bad signing, and they've had their equal share of any other teams. But they do a great job of moving on from bad signings. Like the Patriots. They make a mistake, and they just cut the guy. They don't try to keep making it work.

They bring in Deshawn Shed, and Jeremy Lane's now playing, and they develop young guys, and they just say, well, we mess. step. Let's move up. They should have known, though. All of these problems, the same exact thing happened with the Eagles, and that's why they let him go. I mean, it's not like this was anything new with Sconses. I wonder if it's, like, a little bit of hubris to think, well, we can fix what another team couldn't. But the Seahawks don't really strike me that way for the reason you just gave that they're willing to admit their own mistakes. Did it with Harvin. Did it with Frank Clark, you could argue. Soon to do it

with Jimmy Graham? That's what's happening. in the NFL. One thing I wanted to touch on with you guys just because it caught my eye this morning. One of my favorite annual things to read on the Internet is the A.V. Club, one of my favorite websites, releases its least essential albums of the year, this time of year every year.

And Creed, my favorite, much maligned rock band. Well, I hate them, actually. But they recently released a three-cd, 40-song release retrospective with three different versions. of with arms wide open. Their 2001 hit. Feels completely unnecessary. Because we need more creed in our lives.

Right. Who is it who listens to Crete? There was this really ugly time, and I was in college at the time, so I could tell you where there wasn't a lot of good rock music at all. You could say that today, too. But there was either, you know, there was limp biscuit and stained and that type of stuff. And then Crete emerged as, I guess, you know, this like, generic rock that some people

like it was watered down pearl jam and some people got into it but then he quickly and Scott Stap and lead singer revealed himself as a total bozo and they their music is not agey. I thought they were just like a more religious nickel back. Right it's like if nickel back was a little too cool

for you here's some guys. So they got me thinking I wanted to go I hate nickel back. That's what all the Detroit Lions fans said on Thanksgiving too. Let's go around the horn real quick before we get into our Dalton scale discussion and listen check check your ego at the door here just be real with us this is a safe space your most embarrassing purchase of an album i will i'll start

just to show that i'm for real uh i had some to choose from i have to be honest after a breakup i I purchased the 2003 John Mayer album, Heavier Things. That was a weird move. Okay. Especially because you were pretty old at that point. Yeah, I was like 23. There was no excuse for that. I was going through some things in my life.

Billy Corgan's Post-Smashing Pumpkins Band, Zwan. That's not that embarrassing. I bought that album. I'm not sure. I'm sure it's bad, but. I own the entire live discography from 1993 through 2001. We have a winner. That's it.

We don't all have to keep going. That's six records. That's it. And the Garden State soundtrack, I also purchased. I had that, too. I had that. I'm not embarrassed about that. So I'll go with live.

You know, that will be my pick. Let's go around the horn now. Mark Sessler, you go. Well, when you asked me this, you know, it was like the first thing that came to mind. I was like a huge, well, number one, I was an embarrassing person in high school on a lot of levels. But whenever I liked a girl,

instead of actually talking to her, because I grew up with just a brother and didn't really see women as anything but aliens at that age. Like, I would go to town and make, like, gigantic mixtapes and just drop it unsuspecting on this poor various women.

Like a girl that you didn't even talk to it all of a sudden have this, like, well, there was like a vague interaction and then suddenly, like, a three tape compendium with like 90 minutes tapes. And you were creeped out, right? And it was weird. Yeah, it was weird.

It was weird. I mean, you know, in some cases it went really well. In other cases, it went really terrible. In this case, massively in love with this girl named Sarah and I went out and bought the pretty woman soundtrack because there were like two cuts off that album

that I felt needed to be on this like three tape 270 minute long release that I was putting together what was the song that you put on the mix well two of them but the one that is notable was the king of wishful thinking oh I remember that song is that by Roland to somebody or no I don't it's not it's just a collection of guy that's like

the word Ingram Dorian Molly that's the that's the that look it up on YouTube that could not be more desperate putting that song on there I will say this went to senior prom with went to senior prom with her worked out by go west wait how old were you when you gave her the mix I was in high school it was embarrassing what this was earlier this was earlier in high school we would have been like I again I kick this off by saying I was an embarrassing individual on many levels All right, Wes, you're up. Amazingly enough, the same year and the same soundtrack.

Really? Yes. My brother had just got his license, my older brother, his driver's license, and he was like 16 or 17. He would drive us to school in his 1979 Mustang and pop in Roxette. It must have been love. That's so funny because that's the other song that I put on this mix.

And we would jam out to Roxette on the way to school every single morning. I'm like, put in Rockset. That song always made me uncomfortable if I'd be, like, riding in the car with my aunt because it's like a song about, like, cheating on your husband. And I'd be like, wow, these adults are messed up people. Yeah, well, you're right. Yeah. Well, pretty woman, sort of a messed up storyline if you think about it.

Yeah, that's true. Colleen, go ahead. So you told me that Jagget Little Pill didn't work, Alanis Morseh, because it's not really embarrassing. So Papa Roach, I definitely had Papa Roach. Papa Roach was in that Creed era. They were like almost a bridge between. Last Resort. That was a song.

I had this terrible old Volvo, and I would be, like, if I had a bad day at school, I would get in my Volvo, and then I would blast. This is my last resort. You went out and bought this at a store? I did. I'm not one to point fingers. How about the idea that you get together and you crowdsource and you come up with the name Papa Roach? Nice job.

Greg? I'm offended that you listed Garden State. I went to go look. I mean, it's the shins. Nick Drake Simon and Garfun That was a good Iron and Wine's cover

Of such great heights I like that same I don't listen to that right now I love the shit I've seen them in concert I'm conflating the movie and the soundtrack It's hard not to do

Because the movie If we were talking This conversation was about movies I would say that When I saw that when I was 24 I thought it was profound And then I watched it again Six or seven years later

And I hated myself That's the thing You can't detach the soundtrack From what the movie was And I couldn't agree All right stop dodging the question I'm gonna go with Well, I had a couple options.

Come undone. Kind of when Duran Duran made a comeback-ish in the mid-90s. I got that. I liked that. The Duran-Duran comeback album. That was a guilty pleasure. And then I'm going to go newer. I bought Miley Cyrus's bangers.

Whoa. I'm not embarrassed about that. Is that the one with Wrecking Ball? It does have that. I really got it. You know what? Racking Ball's a good song. I got it really for We Don't Stop, you know.

That was a good song. Wait, so you went out recently and bought an actual, what? Well, on iTunes. Okay. I like the idea of jogging in Santa Monica with Cyrus just ripping through his ears. Ed Bieber, probably. No. How could you not like that image?

That would be more embarrassing. Good talk. Sidney, do you have anything? I did have an album that by 18s, which is like, they just did covers of Abbas. Oh, yeah, Dancing Queen. I remember that. Also, I was a huge American Idol fan, and so I did have a, again, first album was the song of

I hope you didn't have a crush on Clay. Oh gosh, no. Because that would be unrequitted. No. Well, yes. Very true. Okay, that's pretty bad. And good.

All right, good talk, guys. Let's head back to football now. And, yeah, so let's talk about the Dalton scale. And as West said at the top of the show, this is an exercise where we attempt to find out who is the quarterback, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't understand the Dalton scale. This is the quarterback, basically the worst quarterback you can have

that you can still build around and have a tangible success in the NFL. Is that fair? I wouldn't even say that's fair because by definition if you're in purgatory, you're not building towards anything. You're stuck. Oh, so that's the first guy on the other side. No, he's the prime meridian. He is the equator.

And all the quarterbacks above him are franchise quarterbacks. If you're below him, you need a new friend. He's like the mythological river sticks that you have to cross into hell. That makes sense. All right, there we go. Okay, I'm starting to get a little bit. The one thing that we all know is that it is not fair and probably not accurate to call Andy Dalton that guy anymore. Even with that, you know, we're not to the playoffs yet.

It would be good to see him do in the playoffs. But he's shown enough. He's put enough tape out there that we need to move him out of that. He slides up the scale, right? Do you agree with that, Wes, by the way? I think when a guy's name is in the MVP conversation, he can no long. be the prime meridian event nice right i like that so it begs the question maybe we can have a little bit of a discussion here go around uh who might be a better uh guy to say you are purgatory for NFL

quarterbacks uh Colleen why don't like start with you is there anybody that great so yes i was a little unclear on um the Dalton scale how about this how about i start you're not the only mark i have i have one oh you do okay yeah so you're not alone on that by the way i went with with Ryan Tannahill. Okay. They are sort of stuck with him. And based on what we've seen from him, I mean, he had the year last year that he got better and his numbers went up. And it seemed like him and Bill Laser were a good fit.

But now we see that that's not the case. So maybe he is the new Dalton's. That was going to be mine. So I'm with you. I'm glad I'm like Dalton. He goes up and down a little bit. Right. Dalton used to.

So the line, that's what's always confused, Dan, that the line can move. Well, that's one of the things that do. But yes, I think, but if I think about Tannahill, like somebody you can't quite make sense of and you wouldn't be ready, tell me if this is what the Dalton skill is. It's somebody that you can't throw back into the sea because you don't want to potentially get banged down the road. But at the same time, you have serious doubts that his upside will take you to a higher place. Well, I think one of the things with Dalton was that he, until this year, it seemed like he never developed from his rookie year. and I feel the same way about Tannenhill. All right, so let's put Ryan Tannehill as a nominee.

Wes, why don't you throw one out there? I'll go with the original Steelers' wheel of quarterback stuck in the middle with you, Jay Cutler. He's always stuck in the middle. No matter where he's at. He feels kind by Wes a little bit. He gets general managers and coaches fired. We know who he is. The Bears begged people to take him off their hands last year.

Nobody wanted him because he can't get paid like a franchise quarterback. He's not good enough for that. And he's not the answer. He's shown that in two different stops with several different coaching staffs. I agree with all that. He's too flashy for me for the Dalton scale. Although all of that makes sense. He really is that sort of middle.

It's the flash that buries it because that's what goes. That's what pulls everyone in and believes in him. And then he just lets you down. So it's kind of like a different sort of Dalton scale. Oh, now it's getting even more confusing. No, I'm not saying a different sort. It's like when you choose an actor that's a totally different type of Batman. But it still makes sense.

Like people have a lot of opinions on Cutler. I feel like you need somebody who's just sort of like middling. You need some consensus. Yeah. Greg, how about you? I've got the obvious choice. It's Alex Smith. I mean, what defines middle of the road not going to beat you?

Like this is what Andy Reid said about Alex Smith when they brought him to Kansas City. Quarterback is not going to be the position that is the reason we're not good. That's Alex Smith. It's like, okay, he's just going to be there. It's not going to kill us, but there's very little upside. You know, that's almost like if you go to karaoke and you flashed by the page that has White Snake on it, here I go. And you're like, it's kind of like played out.

But I know if I do it, everyone will love it and sing along to the song. You almost don't want, Alex Smith is so obvious and he's such the middle guy that you overlook him in a way. Is that what the Dalton scale is? Yes, I think that's, I think it's just being in the middle. I just went to look at my quarterback index from last week. he happens to be number 16 right now right in the middle all right so we got ryan tannahill which uh is coline and i both agree j cutler nominated by chris wessling alex smith by greg rosenthal now i throw it to mark sessler i was thinking alksmith too i think it's the perfect i think he's

the original dalton scale even more so than dalton to be honest because what the reason i would just blow the whole thing up i think was a very creative concept and idea and it worked But I would blow it up because I think it can't be applied. Alex Smith, we know who he is. And yes, he statistically has done some unusually good stuff. So that's fine. But he's safe. He's just a safe but unspectacular quarterback.

I don't ever want to tag a young quarterback with it ever again. Because although Dalton looks like a guy that is sealing the minute he came in the league, we were wrong. He changed. And so you've got to pick someone that's not going to suddenly a year later change. So it has to be an older quarterback if you're going to do this at all. But I would deep-six it because I think Dalton blew it up, and he's stuck it in our face. So you're saying Andy Dalton, by his rise from relative mediocrity to being a top-level quarterback,

renders the entire exercise meaningless. In honor of Andy Dalton, I would say it is over. I think if you fear change or fear getting something wrong because of change, you're probably covering the wrong sport because change happens. I don't know. I'm not. You're out of football. I'm not the idea of getting it wrong.

I just don't think that it was especially, it's a creative idea. But even in this own room, we were especially confused about what it meant. Now, you weren't, but I think there was confusion about what it meant. And so you've got to go with a quarterback that makes it so simple and so clear. And Alex Smith is the only guy I can come up with that fits that definition at this point. We should put this to a vote. I think Twitter recently installed this thing that allows you to have a poll. Yeah, there's polls.

We should do a Twitter poll on the around the NFL page with Tannehill Cutler and Alex Smith What's good at the listeners think Yeah I like that I also thought Kurt Cousins could someday be I was thinking about him too

But I think it's too early Partly because of what Mark said Let's give him a little time To see what he develops into And he's just he we just haven't seen enough But I could see six years from now Kirk Cousins is still He's on his third team

But he's starting he's kind of like In an Alex Smith type of career We'll see How about I don't like all this. Let's wait a few years until it's obvious to everyone and then we'll make it.

No, I think Alex Smith is perfect, so that's why. How about my boy, Ryan Fitzpatrick? No. He's below. Well, I was going to ask about Fitzpatrick because can it be a journeyman who goes from team to team?

And he is the absolute definition of he's a patch and he's safe and he gets you. Or is he? He's more like the river sticks of backup versus a starter. There you go. He's one of the 32 best quarterbacks,

but he's he would be a if you had a team and you were building a team he'd be the perfect backup right you wouldn't build i think you know you're not building your team around him where's matt ryan on the list well he's getting closer towards it it's sad because i would still take matt ryan over andy dalton if i'm building a team i would too i think he's well above uh the line i think you almost have to see the almost not throw the season out but give him see if they can do some things put some better players around him and see if he still struggles, because I can write this off as just so I'm having an off year. Well, let me ask you a question, Wes, and everyone else.

Let's say Andy Dalton next year, duplicated to a high degree what he's done this year. Would you say that about Matt Ryan? I would still like Matt Ryan because I'm taking all the data available to me, and I know what Matt Ryan has put on tape for five years, and I also know that Andy Dalton has far superior weapons. Yeah, well, that part's true. All right. So there we go.

There's the nominees for the new Dalton scale. Congratulations, Andy. It is Ryan Tannanhill, Jay Cutler, and Alex Smith. Well, you'll put it to vote on the old Twitter handle at Around the NFL. And you guys can let us know what you think. That takes us finally to Thursday night preview. Colleen, I know you need to do some NFL Now stuff. Do you want to stick around or do you want to, you know,

we've got a few minutes left in the show? I think I have to go. Okay. Yeah. I would love to stay, but I can't. Colleen Wolf, NFL Now. NFL Network, the Fantasy Live show, does great work there. And a weekly guest, thank you for a stop.

Bye. Maybe next time I'll make it into the intro. Whoa. Wow. Well, listen, like I said, I'm going to examine the tape and make a decision. I'm going to be fair about it. Okay. But you will be in the show, just a matter of who is it in the intro.

Yeah, I mean, gut reaction, who are you thinking you acts right now? I need to, like I said, study the tape. Tape don't lie. I don't like that answer. All right. All right. Colleen Wolf, ladies and gentlemen. Bye, everybody.

The Wolf Woman. Bye, Colleen. Connie Fox, many nicknames. A real icon. Anyway, we move on now to Thursday night football. Let's start talking week 14, Mark. Listen, this thing, we're rolling forward now, buddy. Season's almost over.

Not at all. What do you mean? It's going until like early February and then, you know, you got to go to the combine and the owners meetings. It's a ball of fun. I can't be can't I don't want it to end so the way I save myself there it's pretty good week 14 only three more Thursday night games although we got a couple Saturday night games that was a big I don't know I totally forgot about that when making the schedule so watch out

what the two Saturday night games heaven does it help me that um Saturday at 6 a.m. I will be pumping out content for around the NFL well it's not this Saturday so uh I know I'm just saying it feels like I'll be okay with this question for you if If you are married to a wife who's annoyed by football at this stage in the season, is it a big selling point, and I've used this, only three more Monday night games. Listen, it's almost over. These weeknights are going to start to open. You don't even cover Monday night games.

I watch them. Oh, okay. I mean, Wes is getting very, West getting a little aggressive over there. Well, you did say you were out last night, right? I mean, you don't have to be locked in. You can certainly, you can watch it later or whatever, kind of half watch it. Who are these people? Let's talk Thursday Nighting.

We want Simone to be happy, that's all. I'm the only one that's had this conversation, apparently. Okay. We've all had the conversation. Yeah, it doesn't stop. She just hates football in general. Season, no season. Yeah, that's kind of where my wife is.

The University of Phoenix Stadium, strange name, will play host the Thursday Night Football, the Vikings at Cardinals. And this is, you know, a big, game for the Vikings. It's a big test for the Vikings because they, two of the last three weeks, they had NFC contenders coming to their building and handed to them. The Seahawks and Packers, the Seahawks embarrassed the Vikings. So you would think this is a fired up team on a short week now. They have to go to Arizona and face the Cardinals who have won six straight games. They are 10 and two.

They are the team of around the NFL. and they look like they're playing as good as anybody in football. So I ask you, Wes, I'll get you going on this. The Vikings seem to be in a very tough spot. But at the same time, this is a team of talent. They got Adrian Peterson, Teddy Bridgewater not playing great, but he's a young quarterback with potential. Are they going to give the Cardinals some trouble here on the road?

Outside of the Thursday night factor, which a lot of strange things tend to happen on Thursday nights when you have a short week, I don't see this as a matchup of two even teams at all. Cardinals allow 89 rushing yards per game, which is one more than Seahawks allow, one more yard more. It's another brutal matchup for a Vikings offense that is all Adrian Peterson, and it looks to me like Teddy Bridgewater is starting to see ghosts in the pocket because of bad pass protection all season long. The protection has been terrible. This, in theory, is one area where they wouldn't have to worry about the Cardinals as much as other teams because the Cardinals, if they have a weakness, it's in their front seven.

and they don't really have natural pass rushers. But last week, I mean, they sent some blitzes at the Vikings that they had no idea how to handle. And I think Arizona can get creative up front because they know the guys in the back end are going to have no problem covering Mike Wallace and Stefan Diggs one-on-one. I mean, you throw Patrick Peterson on one of them. You got a Honeybadger out there.

I mean, it's a tough matchup. If you look at the points allowed this season, these are two very even offenses. They have both given up exactly 232 points. But the Cardinals have scored a hundred and forty-four more points this season. So that's the difference. I mean, that's a massive difference. It's not just that we kind of like the Cardinals.

It's like that's a massive difference. Yeah, I mean, the Vikings also are coming into this at the wrong time with what the challenge is, trying to slow down an offense that outside of that Niners game has been scoring at an epic pace. You're banged up on defense and you don't have the offense to keep up with it. and I picked the Vikings to beat the Packers and I picked them to beat the Seahawks.

I am not making this mistake again because this looks like a team that is the reverse of the Cardinals to me. You put them in a big matchup, they don't add up. They can beat these other teams and get the record they have, but the Cardinals have showed up to every single game all season. They're going to wax this team.

It seems what we've seen in the last three weeks is that, yes, the Vikings are one step below those top teams. And I'll take a look at the schedule here because, you know, They're eight and three after the win over the Falcons in week 12. They fell to eight and four. They can't take care of business against the Cardinals. They're eight and five.

And then they have home bears, home giants, at Packers. Are the Vikings in a little bit of trouble if they lose on Thursday? I think they are. And they're banged up. I don't know what the status is of Limbaal Joseph, Harrison Smith, and Anthony Barr. That's the key to the game for them being competitive. And look at the other side. The Cardinals are healthy now a couple weeks ago.

John Brown and Michael Floyd were battling hamstring injuries. Now they get those guys back. J.J. Nelson emerges as a real deep threat. Cardinals are just loaded, and the Vikings, that's their three best defensive players. Three pro-ball caliber players. And if those guys can't play, what chance do you have? And I think Palmer will really start the MVP for Palmer talk in this game, because he should. Just watch that performance against the Rams.

I mean, he has seven or eight throws that are just terrific throws, and he should be right there with Brady and Cam. I personally think that it's just about even, that it's a three-team race, three-guy race, and the final month matters. This is the best MVP race, I think, since Peyton and AP in 2012. But the fact that there's three guys

and there's really no leader with Brady coming back to the pack a little bit with all these injuries, it could really go any way. I've seen a lot of people on Twitter, football analysts say Cam Newton is the MVP. Deal with it. That's a fact.

And to me, sit back and enjoy it. It's a good three-man race. Don't write it off in early December like it's over. Voters always remember the last month anyway. So it's really about which of those three guys has the best last month. If the Panthers go undefeated, he'll probably win it. If the vote was today, I think Cam would win it, would win it. I mean, the Cardinals still have two prime time games.

They flexed one of their games in yesterday. So there's a lot of chances for Palmer on the big stage to make a statement. I think you guys are right. But, yeah, if the Panthers go 16 and O and Newton, plays well there's no way he doesn't get it i agree it's just hard i think that's just what's going to happen i don't know if it'd be my personal take we'd have to see you're not going to go 16 and oh are they we'll get we'll talk well they could that's their schedule is not hard yeah um all right let's go around pick a winner and a score uh by the way uh the zeus are bottomed out at three

and eleven a few weeks ago four straight or three straight first place finishes in the picks it's getting a little tight west you getting nervous no no no i'm getting a little noivis aren't you I think I'm still closer to first place than you. Yes, you are, I'm saying. But this is really not even between you and I. There's a sandwich wage on the line between you and Mark. This is a little confusing about who will finish ahead in the standings you are. I think it's about five-game difference.

You're still in good shape, but I'm charging as all I'm saying. Go ahead, Mark. I pick the Vikings to lose by 25 points. Look at you. Turn it on the Vikings. 25 to nothing? 35 to 10. 10 nice good good math there i like that west i'll go 38 13 another blowout 25 points there too

uh you know i still think the cardinals you know they let teams hang around and the vikings aren't bad even though they're not playing too well so i think this game will be a little closer uh but i think this is an arizona victory i think it's going to be 27 to 17 yeah i'm going to be hopeful that Joseph, Smith, and Barr do play because maybe they even, you know, were conservative knowing they had a short week last week. Who knows? And so that they keep it somewhat interesting, 30 to 16, let's say. Adrian Peter, unless this becomes a blowout, Peterson's getting 30 touches in this game.

They're just going to hand it to them to keep them happy. Well, I think that may get sidetracked, though, if you're down by, you know, 14 points at the end of, you know, halfway through the first quarter. Absolutely. All things that could happen. That is the Tuesday show. Good work, everybody. Colleen doing great work and, you know, Sydney doing great work and the boss, everybody.

Brandon. Wow, I even did some great work. Brandon. Did his Jimmy Haslam laugh earlier in the show? I don't know if anybody ever knows what I'm talking about besides Mark. Do you guys remember that Jimmy Haslum left? It's like Skeletor. Yeah, it was one of my favorite things that have ever happened.

I believe it was like week three of the 2014 season after a game-winning touchdown throw by Brian Hoyer, I believe. They cut to the Brown's owner's booth And there's Jimmy Haslam, the owner And Joe Banner, who's I guess The President of Football Operations or something then He was in charge of many things Yeah, and Haslam threw his head back and cackled Well, and in True Brown's fashion, it wasn't Hoyer

Because he had torn his ACL earlier in the game It was Brandon Whedon back at quarterback So what were you laughing about? That's fair. Anyway, so there we go. That's Tuesday's edition of the Around the NFL podcast. We will be back late Thursday As we always are, we will recap that Thursday night football game, Wes and Greg.

And then the whole team will then preview all the week 14 games as we keep moving on and on and on. Until then, this is Dan Hansis, signing off for Quiet Storm, the mailman, Connie Fox, the boss, and La Seed behind the glass. Thursday.