NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Saints-Bucs MNF Recap

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Gregg Rosenthal and Justin Graver recap the Saints-Bucs NFC South showdown on Monday Night Football, breaking down what went right and wrong for both sides, including coaching decisions, best moments, and the key turning point in the game. Gregg closes the show with a new top six list before signing off.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Second and nine. A little pump fake and then to the near side hill. Payson Hill touchdown, Saints. That's a 44-yard penalty. Brady, end zone touchdown.

Bucks, Cade Otton. It's third down. Underneath. And touchdown, Rashon White. Tie game with the extra point to come. If I didn't see it, I wouldn't believe it. Tom Brady did it again after 55 of the most miserable minutes of his career. Tom Brady led a comeback from 16 to 3 down in the final five minutes to lead the Buccaneers to a 17-16 win.

It's going to go down as the biggest game in the NFC South all season long. I am Greg Rosenthal. I'm joined here by Justin Graver. We had a last-minute cancellation here in terms of a guest. and it's all coming up Tom Brady and it's all coming up Gravedigger no one I'd rather spend the next half hour with talking about a classic game

I thought we were going to have one podcast Justin I thought it was going to be one sort of podcast and then now it's a completely different podcast I know we're sitting there towards the end of the fourth quarter thinking all right this is just going to wind down we are gathering our thoughts about talking about how the saints were able to stifle the Buccaneers offense and then bang

Tom Brady leads two touchdown drives out of nowhere. And, you know, there's almost a inclination to think, it's Tom Brady, like, of course that happened. Like, of course he did that. And of course he got every break along the way for it to happen. And there's part of me that understands that. And we can go through how that all happened. But no one was thinking this was going to happen at 16 to 3.

Even the darkest of dark Saints fans were not thinking that this could happen. This was as thorough and depressing a beatdown of this book's offense as we've seen all year, and we've seen a lot of them. Next-Gen stats marks it as the fourth most improbable comeback of the next-gen-stats era. That's since 2016. When the Bucks were trailing 16 to 3 with 534 left in the game, they had a 0.7% chance of winning. So let's start at the end.

Let's start on that beautiful route by Rashad White. Rashad White, who I wish was in at the goal line early in the game when they gave it to old Leonard Fournett, who our buddy Chris Wesleying. I'm in the Chris Wesleyan podcast studio, you know, used to call, like, the tank. You know, it was like a tanker trying to make a turn. and he couldn't make...

Battleship Lenny. Battleship Lenny. That's it. My brain is just old and terrible. It's decaying. Like Tom Brady's still doing well, and I am not at my age. Rashad White makes such a great angle route where you pivot inside and then break outside. And Tom Brady had just enough subtle movement in the pocket, I think, to avoid it was Cam Jordan rushing on that play.

And that's the type of play that Tom Brady has done. so well, which is so subtle for so long, just making that slight move, waiting a half beat later, and having a running back who can make a great route like that, that Kevin Fox back in the day, Shane Vereen, James White, and he overcame Tom Brady a holding call just a few plays before by Donovan Smith that I thought was going to be the final thing that ended up knocking the bucks out, a mistake that moved them back to the 16-yard line. But a couple plays later, He gets it right back to the six, and he trusts the rookie in a big spot, and he's just, like, as happy as you'd ever want to see Tom Brady, Justin Graver. At this point, are you annoyed by seeing Tom Brady this happy in big moments?

I've never been a Tom Brady hater. I like to appreciate the greatness. Good. And, you know, I think we need to appreciate it as long as it's still here, because by next season, we may never see Tom Brady jumping around on a field celebrating again if he retires at the end of this year. No, he's not going anywhere. But no, I like seeing Tom Brady celebrate, especially when he's not playing against my team. Right.

I was thinking maybe kind of as a Titans fan, AFC fan over the years, like him leaving the field and he said, F yeah, you know, he was caught on camera, you know, using the F word, and Tristan Wirthes, who's out of this game with an injury, catches Tom Brady,

who jumps into his arms, made me think, hey, Tristan Wurst might be back next week. That ankle might not be so bad. And he might be back. But it also got me thinking of like, you know, Tom Brady's having fun in these moments. And he's clearly not having much fun the rest of the game

and for much of this season. Because it's the worst team he's been on of his whole career that he's been the starter. He's going to set his career high for losses of teams he started, most likely. He would have tied it if they lost this game. But he's had these moments. He had this moment against the Rams.

He had another crazy, now he has this crazy one. And it got me thinking, like, isn't that worth it? Like, what is the point of continuing to play? I'm not saying having family troubles is worth it. But the idea of playing football at all, isn't this the whole point? Like, do you have to know that your team is a great team and potentially can win the Super Bowl? Justin, for it to have meaning?

Because this is not a great Bucks team. It's not even a good Bucks team. I keep thinking maybe they can improve at some point and become a good Bucks team. But at a certain point, I've lost hope. Certainly during this game, I've lost hope. And so they're just like searching for these moments. And he finds them. And to me, that kind of is what it's about, right?

I have a feeling he feels that way is you're just chasing that feeling and you get it and it's fleeting. You can't hold on to it, but you got it for tonight, and you got it for the next couple days. You certainly got it in that moment on the field, and you're chasing it to have it a few more times this season. And I think that has to be enough. Only one team wins a Super Bowl. Right. So every other team, are they miserable when the season ends? Was it all a waste of time?

No, they have to be playing for those moments, because that's probably, I'm assuming, why all these guys love playing football so much. Well, I think people love football and we love covering it for many different reasons and everyone's different. But I think when it's someone like Brady who is different than other players,

I've heard Dominique Foxworth talk about this on Bomani Jones's podcast. Like when people ask him what Brady's thinking in certain moments or he's like, how, like there are guys like that are different. Like, yes, you have to be, wired a certain way to become a great professional athlete,

but the guy's like a Ray Lewis or a Tom Brady or any Jerry Rice, all-time great that you want to think. They're even at a different level. And I think about Bill Belichick when he's asked about football. And he's so gruff, but he just, he says he loves every single aspect of it. And it comes out in strange ways.

But I think the only thing, the most satisfying thing like for Tom Brady is those moments. And I think a game like this, as corny as I'm making it sound, I think makes it all worth it, which is crazy because he's never looked older in a game that he did for this game for 55 minutes. And that's the crazy thing about football. None of that matters. Our whole podcast was blown up and his whole experience of the night was blown up.

I mean, as much as I want to crush the Saints coaching staff and point out all the things that they did wrong and that went wrong, for the Saints and we will. They also had only given up three points in eight drives until those last two drives. So they gave up three points in eight drives and then gave up 14 points in five minutes. One of those

drives was a 91-yard two-minute drive. I think it was reasonable to expect if you're Dennis Allen that that wouldn't happen. I think it was reasonable to expect as fans watching this game that like we weren't going to see any Tom Brady magic because there was nothing.

early in this game for three and a half quarters, Justin, that would have told us that this could possibly happen. So you have to give some credit to the Buccaneers just for doing it, and you have to give some agency to the Saints defense for giving up the lead. It's not all just the coaches. Well, for the first 54 minutes and 39 seconds of this game, the Bucks totaled 196 yards. And in the last 521, they totaled 154 yards. So nearly their entire first 555. minute output they matched on the last two drives. I mean, they had that opening drive, then went 16 plays, 72 yards, installed in the red zone, and then they didn't move the ball into scoring position again the rest of the game.

They were almost there when they had somebody fumbled, lost the ball. Was that white? Right, but even that was on a third down where they would have been punting, too. That first drive, let's get to there quickly before backing up and talking about the Saints' mistakes. That first drive was indicative to me of the entire buck season, 16 plays, 8. minutes taken off the clock and they end up getting three points they get they have to work so hard for points this is a station to station offense they haven't been able to hit the big plays

the biggest play tonight was 22 yards to mike evans and even that was in the in the comeback at the end for a while 12 yards was their biggest play but they slowly move the ball down the field and then they get it to the five yard line and at that point one yard run by four net one yard pass to Godwin and then a great play call where they get the ball out to Fournet on the edge and Julio Jones and Godwin are blocking their asses off, have perfect blocks and all Lenny has to do is get to the edge and he has plenty of time to do it or make a guy missing Marcus May and he can't do it and gets taken down and they settle for three and that to me has been what the Buccaneers have been

except for in these light situations against the Rams and the Saints in these two games. That's kind of who they are. At some point I'm not expecting that to change and I feel like that's going to be their kryptonite ultimately because it's a good enough defense

but they somehow still have Tom Brady who's been in so many situations and can figure things out at the end even if he can't figure it out for the entire rest of the game. Do you think that Brady's accuracy is trending downward in this season or in this game. There was a few moments in this game, and even on that Leonard Fournett one-yard catch that he couldn't get in the

end zone on, I think Aikman said Tom's got to put that out there a little more so he can kind of catch and run. And there was a few times throughout the game where it felt like his ball placement just wasn't what we're used to with Tom Brady, but I'm curious what you saw as a former QB index writer and a QB evaluator. Oh, wow. You're really buttering. me up the graver rosenthal alliance is strong and as an inveterate tom brady watcher i mean i've tried to watch every throw of his career i i guess and yeah his accuracy is worse this year and you saw it tonight and i think that's where his age is showing up a little bit people talk about his movement i mean he can never move and yes he's even more wary of getting hit now than

ever before and getting rid of the ball quicker than ever before and he's not trusting that offensive line, which was missing Tristan Worf's more than ever before. But I think it's just he misses more throws, especially down the field. And Troy is trying to say maybe it's a timing thing that Evans and Julio aren't as fast as Tom Brady's expecting it to be, but you see it on some of the shorter routes. Even in that final game-winning drive, he had two straight throws to Aten, which is not about the speed of the receiver where he's not. So I think what's frustrating for Brady is he's still got the mental side of it, obviously,

and that's as good or better than ever. He's still got the arm strength, and he's still like a physically strong human, you know? Yeah. Like that actually hasn't gone. His heater seems as good as that hasn't declined, and he can throw the ball a long way. So it's not a Drew Brees or Matt Ryan situation either. It's just that it's not as consistent. And that reminds me of every sport.

You can, if you're a great veteran, you can call upon your greatness, play at a time, quarter at a time, game at a time here or there. But the consistency to do it like repeatedly isn't there. And I think you can see it on his face. He's just so frustrated. Doesn't it seem miserable to be a buccaneer this year? Like, especially on offense, it just seemed like they're not having any fun. Yeah, it just looks so hard. Gaining two yards looks difficult.

for this offense until the last drive. Right, and I know we keep having to say that, but I think it's okay to talk about the rest of the game, too. The crowd booze him going into halftime. Todd Bowles is punting at every single opportunity, and the way the game ended, you could say, rewarded his decision to punt. It was on 4th and 10 late in the game when Tom Brady tried to stage his own mutiny and pushed the punting team back to the sidelines.

And then there was a break in play because of an injury. And then Todd Bowles had time to think about it and said, like, no, I'm the boss of this team. We're going to punt it. It was an amazing sequence where I think if Cam Jordan didn't go down with an injury in that spot,

they would have actually gone for it. That one didn't bother me as much, as much, and it did bother me as the possession before, where they punted on the Saints 40, yard line in the fourth quarter down 16 to 3. And I know the Bucks won this game, but to me, that's why Todd Bowles and thinking about the game in such a defensive way and a conservative way are just frustrating.

And you can say that the result makes him right. No, I don't care. The process was wrong. And the process was wrong on the other side too. Yeah. Give me your favorite Dennis Allen moment from this game. putting you on the spot or just decision or anything that the Saints did that got you. There's two that stand out because they're almost the exact same situation.

Fourth and two from the Bucks 11, fourth and two from the Bucks, what, three yard line? Yep, the one on the three killed. Yeah, and they kick field goals on both of those. The one on the three is stupid, but is it, I feel like the other one was a worst decision because it was later in the game and you have the chance to ice it. Like they're both bad decisions in my opinion, but I feel like the later one is like you just need two yards and the game is essentially over. Okay, so I'm glad you brought those up. Dennis Allen goes for a field goal.

Yeah, it wasn't quite fourth in goal, but it was like four to two and a half basically from the three kicks a field goal there. At that point, they're up 10.3 and he's thinking, well, I'm going to make this a two score. game it's a low scoring game we just had the ball forever i'm going to trust my defense i i think that one is even worse because you're closer to the touchdown the next one it's it's at the 11 yard line where where they choose to go for it you could argue that that's worse because all it's doing is making it a 13 point game right it's still two touchdowns and and the thing about it is defensive coaches think like you're they're how like they're trying to pretend their defense and get points, and we're going to get stops.

And so all we've got to do is keep getting points. If you really trusted your defense, just go for it. Right. To me, going for it is trusting your defense more. I think go for it on the fourth and three, because it's hard to get to the three-yard line, and it's hard to score in this game. And I trust my defense so much that you're going to be on the three-yard line,

and you've got to score touchdowns. And here's the thing, trusting your defense very rarely works. Look what happened in this game If they had gone for either one of those They would have been up and made it Then they could have been up by more than two touchdowns And they win They trusted their defense

And ultimately it's 2022 Even when you're playing a 45-year-old Brady Trusting your defense doesn't normally work And it's funny because in this game There was so much like punt to win As Patrick Claibon put it on Twitter Brian Daibble tried to do it It was like an amazing week for punt to win

Yeah. Todd Bowles did the same thing. You know, he punted when he was on the Saints 40-yard line, as we pointed out. And in that situation, defensive coaches always think it's going to be like a perfect punt and you're going to pin them back. But instead, he punted it straight into the end zone. And the Saints were then past the 40-yard line and had regained that field position that you thought was so valuable like four plays later after a nice throw by Andy Dalton

to Olave. I felt weird in this game because obviously I love Brady in general but it just didn't feel like they deserve to win this game. I picked the bucks to win this game. I usually root for my picks too. But it just didn't feel like they deserve to win this game and I have a soft spot for the same.

So either way, I just felt bad for Andy Dalton is the point I'm getting to. Andy Dalton played well in this game. This was a pretty classic Andy Dalton 20-22 game. 20 for 28, 229, and a touchdown. His three best throws of the night were dropped. Olavi dropped one that was in the red zone that would have set them up in the first half

to try to go in and score. They end up getting nothing out of that. Was it Landry that dropped the other big pass that would have been a touchdown in the first half? So they end up settling for three, beautiful throw. And then finally, the play that people will remember, Tassum Hill dropped a pass with just over five minutes left on third or rather just over two and a half minutes left on third and 17 I couldn't believe they dropped back to pass in that spot and then I

really couldn't believe the red rifle had the guts to make that throw into in between three players a whole shot and he killed it. It was a perfect throw. It was right in Tays Some Hill's hands, that would have won the game. I didn't, I did not mind that play because it was, you're letting your best player try to make a play. Their best player was Andy Dalton. And their other best players, Taysam Hill. Yeah, I mean, you almost have to credit, like we want to give Brady all this credit for the comeback. But if Carl Nassib doesn't sack Andy Dalton on second down and Keanu Neal doesn't put his helmet right in the chest of Taysam Hill where the ball is, then Tom Brady doesn't have a chance to come back.

Was it Nassib who got that sack right before? Wow, because he also had the deflection. He had a monster last five minutes for a team that has been searching for a pass rusher. And he's playing more since Shaq Barrett got hurt. Great call there. I didn't even realize that that was him. That play by Keanu Neal, yes, you don't normally trust Tasem Hill as a receiver. He did have a 30-yard touchdown in this game where he was basically left wide open by Keanu Neal.

He had more yards in this game receiving 30-year-old. Then he had all season coming into the game. He had 31 coming into the game. But I don't hate that play call there. I do hate what started this whole comeback. Do you know what play I'm going to talk about? Because I believe as much as that 3rd and 17 people are going to remember for stopping the clock and being so aggressive,

there was a very strange play not too long before that was routine and the Saints would have won the game if it hadn't happened. This is a tough quiz. Mark Ingram going out of bounds. That's it. See, that's the thing. Like, when people get mad about Tom Brady gets so much luck, like those are the types of plays they remember.

Andy Dalton, six minutes, 11 seconds to left, throws on second and eight. I like that they were staying aggressive there. They're up 16 to 3. They shouldn't be that worried. And it's a quick pass to a running back. Mark Ingram, who's getting run down by, I think it was Devin White,

just jogs out of bounds. Yeah. And it's not about stopping the clock. The clock doesn't stop, by the way, before five minutes. If I could just teach Twitter one thing because it's a lot of really great professionals out there that do this, the clock doesn't stop when you go out of bounds until there's five minutes left.

People still really struggle with that. Yeah, I know. They always like, how could you stop the clock? He's out of bounds. Stop the clock. With like eight minutes left, 10 minutes left, everyone. National reporters, like really experienced people like, let's get this right.

All Mark Ingram had to do was go. get that first down and I think the game's over and he just ran out of bounds yeah and then they had a curious play call to to pass it on third and one right after that to callaway they don't complete it i hate not running there on third and one in general i don't love passing on third and one i know they were struggling to to run all night but when the clock is such a big factor in that spot the combined advantage of you're more likely to get it running the ball anyways and you would have drain 30 more seconds off the clock, worst case scenario, that was a really bad play call. And that two-placed sequence actually set everything up.

Put Tayson Hill in and QB sneak it with him or let him do his stupid power thing that he has taken, how many times have they had like a third or fourth and one where Taysam Hills run the QB power and taking it 40 yards for a touchdown, you know? It does feel like Tassum Hill plays work most of the time, although he only went for 10 yards here. rushing, wow. Quickly, just some other, just little thoughts on this game. Alvin Camarra cannot get it going running the ball. I mean, Cam Jordan and Lavante David,

if you turned on any Saints' Bucks game for the last 10 years have been like the two best defensive players in the NFC South. It's kind of amazing. Yeah. Give them some love. The Buc's defense has been good all year. Like they kept them in this game. And then finally, I think the reason I was a little disappointed too by the ending of this game,

and why I know Mark was on our text thread. I wanted some NFC South chaos. I know. Explain what you would have been looking for the rest of the season in the NFC South if they had lost this game or the repercussions of this game. It was a huge game. Yeah, it would have been cool to see

the Falcons have a chance with a losing record to try to make some noise. But I guess at this point, the Buccaneers are going to go into Dallas and get their butts kicked in the first round of the playoffs. Most likely. So this puts the Bucks at 6 and 6. If they had lost this game, the Saints would have had five wins,

the Bucks would have had five wins, the Falcons would have had five wins, and the Panthers would have had four wins. And yes, it would be as ugly and annoying as this division is. Every team looks the exact same, by the way. They all play the same way. None of them are good. They at least would have been ugly compelling or ugly,

important down the stretch because all their games would have kept mattering because if you look at the buck's schedule the next couple of weeks, they have the 49ers next week. I know it's Brock Purdy, but the bucks are underdogs in that game even with Brock Purdy.

Then they have the Bengals. That's a loss. If they had lost this game, Justin, I think they would have been staring at 5 and 9. I really think the Panthers are probably playing the best in this division, but you could easily make the case of any of those four teams making it. And I don't think they're quite out of it yet, the Falcons.

They're not. But it's a little harder for the Panthers now to make up two wins over the rest of the season. The Saints who have a pretty forgiving schedule the rest of the way would have maybe been the favorites in this division. They're going into their buy, and then they would add the Falcons, Browns, Eagles, Panthers, so other than the Eagles game, you know, they would feel good in their division games. Like, division games are going to decide a lot here, but that's why it's just a total gut punch

of a loss for the Saints and their fans, except for my friends on the Saints' Twitter podcast, who just want to hashtag fire Dennis Allen. And so I'm looking forward to hearing their edition of this game, because if nothing else, this could help them in that. endeavor each of these nfc south teams has two division games left which means it's really not over and the fact that the it's not over but it would have been like way more just like wide open and felt like it was starting to like just be over for the bucks even yeah it'll be fun if the falcons bucks week 18 game is for the division but the falcons have to make up some ground before then

for that to be a thing and one more thing about this division there's two divisions in the nflbill where every team has a negative point differential, the AFC South and the NFC South. It's a really crazy year that both Eastern divisions are so strong and both Southern divisions are so bad. That was not a bad game in the end. It was a bad game for most of it, but it had a good ending and a great ending is all you need.

Let's end this podcast in a positive way. Top six list tonight in honor of 10. Tom Brady, the greatest seasons ever by quarterbacks over the age of 40 in the NFL. Number six, Warren Moon, 1997 on the Seahawks, led the league in yards per game passing, had a lot of interceptions, but he made the Pro Bowl at 40 with the Seahawks. Number five is Brett Farve in that 09 Vikings season where he just turned the clock back, he electrified the NFL. it sort of got me realizing as stupid as this is

what the whole Brett Farr phenomenon was all about because I sort of jumped in in terms of a profession just when he was starting to get annoying around 2003 and declining. And that season was so much fun. Number four on the list, Tom Brady, 2018. People think, like, oh, that wasn't that great a year for them. Oh, they got carried to the Super Bowl by the defense.

He went to overtime and outduled Patrick Mahomes in Arrowhead before that. He put a 40 burger on Philip Rivers the round before that. I don't want to hear anything about carried by a defense. Number three, Tom Brady, the 2020 season, winning the Super Bowl with the Buccaneers in a new spot, stuck it to anyone who thought he was done, including Bill Belichick. Number two on the list, Tom Brady, 2021. He should have won the MVP last season. No wonder he wants to keep playing.

he was the best quarterback in the league, and then finally number one on the list, Tom Brady, 2017. Yes, they lost to the Super Bowl to the Eagles, but that was the best Super Bowl. I think he ever played it, and he was on fire that entire season, problematic defense. But, oh, my God, was he good? So, yeah, you might think he'd be getting old and he got lucky tonight, but don't ever forget. That's Tom Brady you're talking about. For Justin Graver, I couldn't be any more annoying.

than I just was. I'm sorry. Is that okay, Justin? Yeah, that was great. I mean, I don't know. That one was maybe going too far. We'll be back Tuesday. Colleen Wolf is there.

Until then, heed the call. Hey everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else. It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it.

Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL, visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. This is an IHeart podcast.