NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Saturday Sickos: All-Underrated Defense

Episode Date: December 13, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Ollie Connolly and Nick Shook to give you their All-Underrated Defensive Team starting with the defensive backs followed by the linebackers (18:00) and wrap things up with the defensive line (29:00).  Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and we've got some sickos. Welcome to NFL Daily. It's episode three of Saturday Sickos, and I'm a lot of, I brought in a ringer today. Last week we did the all underrated team on offense. This week we're doing the all underrated team on defense. And strangely, my partner on Saturday, Ali Connolly, the one requirement he had during contract negotiations to come on board with NFL Daily, Ali, was,

you need to put me on a show with the man Nick Shook. And now here we are. I've done it. Yeah, sickos aren't complete unless Shook he's in town. That's just the reality. I mean, look, I'm glad to be a ringer. I'm usually a ringer on my friend's bowling team. been a ringer on our old softball team.

Why not? Add it to the list. It's too bad weightlifting isn't just like one of those sports that you can just like play at recess or whatever because Shook would have been like a great ringer for that. Although there is still a lot of arm wrestling going around. I'm finding out in middle school and elementary school for boys. So that could have been a good one. All right.

So we did the all underrated offense last week with Ali. I'm going to say let's build this defense back to front. let's go with the defensive back first let's start a cornerback actually uh why don't you get us going i got to go with kamari laster from the texans who i think is probably one the three best corners in the nfl right now i think you could honestly with this team build out everyone on the texans defense that just isn't will and daniel hunter and derrick stingly i still think is slightly understated given where he's at in his development but for for me it's laster as truly like the picture textbook technique

based core in the NFL with all the great athletic traits too but he is just like one for one down the line every rep is picture perfect of how you would coach it up and he doesn't get any of the love because it's all to swallow it into the same morphous like the Texans are great the pastures is great and we kind of forget they got two all pro corners

hanging out there as well oh all pro you're saying that would be a top six overall cornerback in the league if we're putting three cornerbacks on on each team you're putting Lasseter in that category I would have him right now. Satan lives in a league of his own.

He is just a demigod. And then right after that, it's a conversation. To pick who you won, and I would have Lester right there with anyone else. That is awesome. And if you think about the value that they get from having these guys now Stingley's on a second contract, but when they had Stingley on his first contract

and then this one, that's a $30 million plus type of player that you have on these low-cost rookie deals. That's a good shout-out. And you never know. Like, if the Texans finish really strong here, this is becoming an extremely memorable defense where a lot of guys might get rewarded with the postseason honors.

But he's already got a big one, all underrated team. All right, give me one of your cornerbacks, shook. Okay, we're going to go with somebody that we actually mentioned, I think, after the Monday night show, which is Dante Jackson, a guy who has, you know, made multiple stops in his career and is having a phenomenal year with the Chargers. His targeted passer rating is 40.8. It's among the best in the NFL, according to next-gen stats.

It matches what you see with the tape, which is a guy who just is sticky coverage and fits perfectly in this Chargers defense. It's funny because you go to this exercise. Like, I have another Texan that's going to come up in this secondary. I have multiple chargers on this group, or at least in consideration. And I think it just fits with what we know about these teams.

These defenses are good. The Texans being the best and the Chargers making a strong case for it. And it's because of guys like Dante Jackson. Yeah. What do you think it is, Ali, that Jesse Minter does that seems like he finds a way to get the best out of cornerbacks? Dante Jackson had some moments in Carolina.

it wasn't always healthy, did not have a good season in Pittsburgh, and whoever they bring in to Los Angeles seems like it just works. Yeah, it's interesting because they're not quite as wild and creative as they were when he was at Michigan. There's just a degree of like connectivity between all those guys. They have some pretty tough zone-based assignments that are more detailed and complex. I would say like the standard drop to space zone and stuff.

And so when you're passing all that stuff off and you've got to like look on the fly of, okay, that guy's Justin Jefferson, he's really fast. Oh, Nico Collins, he's really tall and really fast. to have those wink-wink connections on the fly are essentially impossible in the NFL. It's why they don't have complex zone coverage structures a lot of time because someone's always hurt. You bring in a practice squad guy up. It used to be easier to do that stuff in college when you had a guy with saving for like three years

and it could be really detail-oriented. So to get that level like on the fly feel where guys are passing people off is like an astonishing achievement by all those players, Cam Hart, on down the line. They just find guys and it's all I think more in the brain and the feel and the connectivity between all of them. Yeah. I'm counting on you guys to really make this scheme good and carry me a long way. So I'm just leaning on your picks.

I wanted to just bounce off what you guys said. Give me your other cornerback shook and then just jump right in after Ollie with yours. Okay. So this one doesn't stand the test of like rep by rep tape. Like he's got some ugly reps. But his nose for the ball is fantastic. It's Nashan Wright from the Bears. He's had a phenomenal run over the last month and a half of just making plays on the ball.

And I don't know if it's just me, but I value guys who tend to show up in the next gen numbers in ball hawk rate, whether it's past defenses or interceptions, those guys at the higher production. And he's had a great run as of late. He has a great story, too. You know, he was on the, the Laney College team at Last Chance of you, you know, that sort of thing. And has fought his way into a role with the Bears and a Bears team that's very fun to watch with a defense that I think is underrated, but very strong in the back end. And it's because he makes plays in key spots alongside some of the better defensive backs that they have in that group.

I've just loved watching him thrive over the last month and make key plays. It seems like every week he might get burned on a play, but he's going to come back and make a big play on the ball. And that's why I love him. Imagine where they would be without him, given some of the other issues they have. And he doesn't just make play shug. It's like, these are some Hall of Fame all-time plays. You put the top five reel together of just the turnovers alone. It's as preposterous as anyone can ever have.

And if you're looking for a good watcher, into like a sports reality show, that Laney College season was actually Nashon Wright's brother that was in that season. But Nation Wright was kind of featured because it was like the older brother who had made it big. And I've always followed his career because of that. It's a great season of television. but he's bounced around. You know, the Cowboys took him early, and he was with the Vikings,

and it's always cool to see a guy kind of make his mark in the NFL after sticking around for a few years. Who else he got a cornerback? I've got DJ Turner. I wanted to give some love to the fan bases who are like, we are mired in the mud here. Can you give us any glimmer of hope?

And I'm saying to the Bengals fans, I know it's a complete disaster, but I see DJ Turner. And if we're doing that all pro ballot, I think sneaky third team selection, you do go rep by rep. You see him take on all the big boys, whether it's D.K. Metcalf,

whether it's a Monrass, and he locks people down. He has unbelievable instincts and feel on the move. He's got incredible makeup speed once he does get B, which is more than you would like to see with a true tier one top tier guy. But he's had a sensational season when everything around him is just being pretty much a disaster.

Yeah, it's so much fun to watch him develop, by the way, too. Sorry, Greg. But he was a late second round pick, which you were going to say in year three. Like, he's a testament to giving guys time to let them get their feet underneath them because he was not the player that they expected him to be.

over the first two seasons. And it wasn't really until about halfway into this season where they realized, oh, now he's blossoming. It's just a testament to giving guys the full runway of the rookie deal before giving up on them. And they really thought he was going to be like this Versailles in-out corner.

He'll go in the slot for us. He's crazy explosive. Now he's basically Richard Sherman. He's playing an assignment of defense, which is this like weird press and trail technique, which no one in the league does anymore, except for Al-Golden. That's going very well.

Good job by Al. But he's asked to do this really difficult, almost throwback assignment, and he's doing it at a level that is just like career redefining for him. It's pretty cool. It is one of the, like, surprising stories. And it's a reminder of these, like, cornerbacks, it's such an unpredictable position.

And you can have these awesome seasons out of nowhere. And hopefully it sticks. Like, AJ Terrell's had a good career since that 2021 season, I think it was. But sometimes, like, these guys pop up for these one seasons. And it's just such a position where there's ups, there's downs, but he's going to get a big second contract. he was a late second round pick. We'll move on to safety. I had just written down names just in case

just to give them a little bit of love. And these are almost lower. And I like your idea, by the way, Ali, of having a third team all pro. I think you guys do that on the podcast. Like more positions, more awards. Like, why not? I don't really trust the 50 AP voters

to go like third team at safety or cornerback anyways. But it would be cool to have that. These guys would not be on that list, but just guys I enjoy. watching that I wanted to give a little love. How about a little come up for Buster Brown, Monterec Brown for the Jaguars? I just been surprised. Did not expect much out of him. And he's active. He's been fun to watch this year. And I always was a Tyson Campbell fan. And so far, I think the Browns have won that trade. He's a good player. And he's been a pretty

good player since they traded Greg Newsom for Tyson Campbell. Maybe not a perfect player, but cornerbacks, I enjoy watching. Let's go to safety where Ali actually built like a specialty tape. And this will be a fun show to watch on YouTube. We have some highlights. And I think we're going to put one of these tapes up. Give us your safety. My first safety is Ty O'Card up with the Seahawks, who is maybe the biggest revelation of any player given the demands that have been placing in by his coach where Mike McDonald gets with an undrafted guy from Montana State and says, do you feel like being Kyle Hamilton in the NFL? One of the most special versatile dynamic players to walk in the sport in the past decade. And this undrafted guy says, I got it, bust. Don't worry about me.

You want me to disguise courage. You want me to play half on the hash and drive down. You want me to fit the A gap from deep. I'll bring it, buddy. I can go and take Bejohn Robinson one-on-one in the hole. Don't worry about that. I'll come and shut down Trey McBride. I'll be the creative little disguise element

that allows Devin Wether Spoon to go and attack the backfield. The way they've used him and him walking in and playing it to that degree is probably the most shocking thing I've seen from any single player this year. And it didn't even ruin my head, just watching them week to week. I study them every week because I love Mike McDonald. And it never even popped in my eyes that a guy who's played so little ball

has played that well until Mike McDonald himself went to the podium and is like, are you guys seeing what this guy is doing? It's just the most sensational stuff. Oh, the beauty of this is that, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about this whole defense, right? And you have the household names. You have the Devin Wetherspoon.

There's been a lot of attention paid to Nick Eamon Worry, but I think it's the sum of all the parts, right? It's the contributions of a guy like Tai Okada that allows these other players to make, you know, big differences in different roles because you can count on a guy like that who's just willing to sacrifice anything. This is the guy that just sticks his nose in the fray all the time, has no fear.

I love, he's kind of a throwback in that regard where you just love watching him play because he's flying around and has no regard for his own safety. Yeah, we're watching this film and you put this clip together. What stands out for you in these past reps, especially for Okada? The past reps is just there is zero wasted movement, sorting through traffic at real speed, and that's what you get from the combine, the time testing, and okay, how quick you're in a straight line speed? Well, most reps in the league aren't in a straight line.

line of your safety. There's some kind of angle. You've got to be as efficient as possible. You're probably working through bodies if you're coming from Deb. And if you just watch him through this stuff, look at the way he works through things. Look and walk through that. And then go and pin the thing in the flat. It's just, it's really remarkable. And just the distance he can cover forwards and backwards allows them to be as creative as they want in the disguises. The coach is always get the credit. We go to the nerd and say, what a genius this guy is. Well, if the guys aren't good enough, they're too slow. They can't feel it and read it on the fly. It's completely irrelevant. You get, you know, crush for 50 and you get fired. That's how it works. To just drop a guy in undrafted

asking him to be Kyle Hamilton is unlike anything I've seen in a long time. Yeah, Ty Okada is a great shot. I think he's a perfect, perfect one. If you're watching this show, you know, from the Seahawks,

you want to sound smart and like, it's not just Devin Witherspoon back there. It's not just Julian Love who came back. And we'll see because the way McDonnell talked about Okada, I don't think it's not like he's going to get benched down the stretch now that they're a little healthier in the back end. Who do you have as your two safeties, Nick? First one's Evan Williams,

a guy who has come on really strong, especially in the second half of the season. I think that he has defined the, I don't know if it's the resurgence, but just the Packers' defense becoming a more complete unit and really producing over the last month and a half. He's been making plays. Another guy with a nose for the ball,

but also somebody who's just making plays on the ball and getting involved in the box. Like he's another guy that will come down and stop the run. He's been one of those players that when you watch the Packers week by week, you know Michael Parsons is out there. You know they have Rashong, Gary, you know about Edge Cooper and all these other guys. but ball goes over the top, and next thing you know, there's Evan Williams making a play.

He's one of those players that I think people will come to recognize more and more often if the Packers make a deep run and he makes a key play because he's made plenty of them this season, whether it's intercepting passes, breaking passes up. He just seems to be around the ball all the time. Yeah, you're watching him make an interception of James Winston, which is what everyone does. But Ali, we were talking after the Thanksgiving game, especially. It's his run defense, and it's just his. is firing to the ball.

And it's, it's not always perfect, which is probably maybe why he's not making the all pro team quite yet, but he deserves an all underrated spot. Like, what do you see in terms of that run defense? Yeah, the run game enforcers, if they have wild team speed. Like, it just pops off when you watch them. They look quicker and more explosive.

And if you remember back to the Eagles game last season, they look slow on the field compared to the Eagles and the playoffs. Now they look so quick and so dynamic. I think he's a key element of that. We're kind of blessed with these young safeties, Antonio Johnson, Cam Kinchins, Nick Cross. But Williamson has a little different degree of tenacity. I don't know if you saw

when he got into the one-on-what fight with Trent Williams. He stood up to the big boy. He threw him into the durn. He was like, I will not back down from anyone. If it's in the whole one-on-one which you may have gives him,

it's after the rep with Trent Williams. I do not care. I'm here to play big boy football and he flies around like crazy. If we're going to go to another safety, by the way, we're going to go back to Houston real quick. Kalin Bullock has been excellent. And he was good last year.

And I know we pay attention to, you know, the Lasseters of the world, the Derek Stingley, the Jalen Petries. Bullock has, I don't know how people missed this kid coming out of USC. We want to talk about somebody with, again, with a nose for a ball,

just an innate sense from being around the football. It's him. And like, we've talked about the big plays that he's made in recent weeks. I think it was the Buffalo game where he made a big play late in that one. But he's just a guy that, again, kind of like Evan Williams in a different fashion, when the ball is headed toward the back end of the defense, he always just seems to be there. And he just seems like a natural fit for this defense with so many stars around him that he is the, the, I don't know if I would call him like the lynchpin or maybe the Keystone.

to this entire group that that he fills out that secondary and he's somebody that deserves more attention yeah he's like a he has great ball skills this secondary's tricky because like you said i don't know if you have another one of your picks is from this safety group because yeah like people do know about jalen petrie i think who does everything for them in the back end but he still does seem underrated for like the level of player but bullock absolutely fits the bill too as a guy with great ball skills. You don't necessarily see that in the secondary that much, Ali. No, he's on a different level that usually it's like, well, if they can catch, you put them on the other side of the ball and we go and score a bunch of points. For some reason, he's like the only guy in the second

in the league who can consistently catch. Everything has unbelievable range. I do think he is one of the all-time great gamblers. And if you gamble, then you are playing for the Panthers, you might be in trouble. He's playing in front of the most ferocious pass rush in, like recent times with Jalen Petrie with those two old pro corners on the outside that you can get away with some stuff. And then when it pays off and it hits. It looks pretty, pretty good, but he's in the perfect location and I'm playing pretty well. Who else you got at your safety spot, Ollie? I got to throw Tykey Smith in here for the books. I know you've talked about him on the pod this season, but Nick talked about Evan Williams and Descan, the general tenacity and ferocity. I'm not sure there's anyone

who plays as offended on Sundays as Tyke Smith does. Everyone in the league just like insults him between the snap it feels like and he comes out and he hits everything and he hits everyone and does a thousand different roles and they've really now got a situation where it's almost like they clone Winfield again and they can just mix and match and flip-flop what they want to do with the two of those safeties. That's quite a compliment too that you could be able to be used in that way with Antoine Winfield. He seems like a perfect Todd Bowles player. It's been fun watching them and yet it hasn't been consistent on that defense but you can't really fault the young guys in the secondary. I want to just give it just a quick shout to a couple

people. Well, Quentin Lake, when he was healthy, was having a great season for the Rams. I think he's going to get. He deserves a good second contract. And then the one that maybe this wouldn't be a hipster pick, I'm sure all the coverage numbers aren't amazing. But I'm just happy to see Kevin Byard having another Kevin Byard type of season for the Chicago Bears. He's 32 or 33. I feel like he's most known for Dion Sanders not knowing his name back in the day. If you remember that. And yet he is a guy who's popped up with two first team all pro seasons like four years apart. And he's an important part of that secondary who's been so injured. So seeing a guy like that who I thought was kind of cooked and his career was just about over.

Just want to give him some love. And he'll be playing big time football down the stretch. Here's a little story about Kevin Byard real quick, just to give you some context for how long he's been doing it. He first rose to prominence with the Titans back when I was still living out there in L.A. and working in the newsroom with you and Culver. And I did a one-on-one with him on the lot back then. That's how long it's been. We've been in Englewood for years.

I've been gone remote for years. I feel like he's almost most well-known beyond Dion for being every like analyst trade deadline, go-get candidate for like three years in a row. It's like, could you go and get Kevin Bayard? Then the Eagles went and did it and he was completely fried and cooked when he got to Philadelphia and we all had egg on our face, but a really good bounce by Gary.

Someone that Caleb Bullock is like the true free-ranging middle of the field safety. That's the career you want to have. Good comp. Let's go to linebacker for the uninitiated. This is the position that gets Ali up in the morning or or gets him staying up on East Coast hours, which he crazily does during football season. He just, he just switches and pretends like he's living on the East Coast there in Manchester. So what what linebackers this year have you enjoyed watching the most that deserve to be on the all underrated team? there's a lot this season which is a true bounce back

where last year you're digging through the rubble being like can we find a fourth fifth one here that could play pretty well I went first with Divine Diablo from the Falcons who when he came over from Vegas I just thought that was a complete whiff

and a mistake to do he's a converted safety who was always like oh we can play in space you get all the coverage stuff people say you can't find coverage linebackers well you might get a plus coverage linebacker who could do absolutely nothing for you in the run fit

he comes to Atlanta and he's been incredible around the ball and making plays in the backfield. And he's playing in that really mugged up kind of linear path system where it's either blitz or drop. And that's where I think he's at his best, but he's added this new fresh element to his game where he can really kind of dance and skip around the box

and slide through those crevices and go make plays in the back field, which is just not what his game was like at all before he's got here. And he's being super impactful, super productive. And now has the sick aesthetic where he's got the club on one arm and he's just swan people away and he's going to make him plays. So Divine Diablo jumps out for me. Yeah, I think about that defense and how many cool parts of it has and how they use them well. And then I think I don't know if that defense is going to exist next year.

It's kind of a shame. We'll see who ends up being their head coach next year. But like so many guys seem like good fits and we've seen development out of their rookie pass rushers. But that's a good shout out coming from the Raiders. Everyone like looks a little better after they leave the Raiders. Who else do you got, Chuck? Well, first off, I wanted to thank real quick. Maybe this is just like an association by uniform, but, and I think it was a different defensive scheme, but like Diablo going to the Falcons having a good year, it kind of makes me think about when like Michael Walker, who's no longer there, I always liked him with the Falcons, different types of players, but it's just like, I don't know, what is about Atlanta? There's always a linebacker that comes from Atlanta that I like. I'm going to go with, this might be a bit of a cherry pick, but he's a rookie. He's having a great year, Carson Swessinger, who's just been fantastic for the Browns. He has effectively replaced Jeremiah Wusser Cuomo as best as possible in this defense.

a former walk-on at UCLA who ends up being a top end of the second round draft pick. I think he's still a strong candidate for defensive rookie of the year based on how he's performed in his first season. He ranks in like the top 25 among all linebackers, according to PFF. He's in the top 20 and run defense. And you just see it on the tape. He's another guy who's not afraid to get dirty to fire him with explosion. He's ranging.

He can get from sideline to sideline. He's decent in past coverage. He's the type of athletic linebacker that I think is a bit of a dying breed, even as we turn toward more sub-packages, he's a guy that can play on all three downs, and he's been a big part for that defense, a big piece of it, for sure. When you're watching him, like, did you expect Ali this big of an impact right off the bat? No, not this big of an impact. I think he almost falls into that Diablo bucket where he was builders.

Okay, we're going to get all the coverage chops, the coverage and rage, and Jihad Campbell has more of the size and power and, like, physical strength, and maybe be more of the first down in force who can then survive on third down. he just walks in the league and it's just killing people at the point of attack day one stood up mugged up and then they run the ball at you when you're mugged up these days and he's like i don't care about it i'm just going to throw somebody to the floor and go get the ball i did not expect to have this kind of all-around impact i thought he would really be a sub-packaged piece coming in on passing downs and you would maybe figure out over time how close can you get into the line of scrimge

how much can you play just in the trenches big boy on big boy football so if him to be this impactful right away i agree with shook i think he's kind of the runaway defensive rookie of the year if you just go snap by snap who plays like an all-around pro and that the position that takes three years to develop more than any other position in the league outside of maybe quarterback, and he's just stepped in day one as a top 10, top 12 lineback, and that's basically impossible

to do. And so he deserves an award for that. This is not an official entry, but Devin Bush has played pretty well for the right. Ah, it kills me. I didn't want to sound like a homer, but you're right. He's had a really good year. Am I crazy? I'm like, wow, is that Devin Bush again? Devon Bush is pretty good at football suddenly.

Yeah, I didn't want to sound like a homer. being in Cleveland and everything else, but he's made, I mean, he even had his first interception in years this season. He's, I don't know if he's found the fountain of you or if he's just in the right scheme with Jim Schwartz's defense, but he's having probably his best year or one of his best years. Maybe a little bit of both, which is like he's, he's in a perfect situation. And what Ali was saying in terms of sometimes you really do need that time to develop at that position, but especially I think they're Jim Schwartz and that defense helping him like focus on what he does well. Ollie, who else do you got?

I was going to go with Justin Stranaugh from the Broncos, who is truly my beloved, but he's once again being benched because Drey Greenlaw has returned. And so I don't think you can put a bench player on the all underrated team, which is sad. So I'm going to throw something out to the Titans fans and say that in Cedric Gray, I believe you've found someone who can actually stand up and play on the field for you on Sundays behind Jeffrey Simmons. And that should be pretty exciting. Now, he's right up there in like the raw like tackle data numbers, but none of it is empty calories to me.

His range, his fight, he is still a complete. roller coaster, particularly in coverage, he has lost constantly. But if you just put in between the tackles and in the box and allow him to kind of just play sit and find and sift and find football, which is a lot of early down stuff in the NFL, he's playing about as well as you could ever hope for for a second year guy playing in that scheme behind the front he's playing with. That is truly all underrated. I know this because we were, my son wanted to play a game. I didn't want to bring the iPad to Chargers Eagles on Monday night when we're stuck in traffic on the way there. And he just wanted to play a game. You give me a Deptart position and I'll like name who

the players are in the NFL, which is, you know, makes me very proud as a son, as a father that he suggested that game. And I'm like, Titans linebacker. And he's like, there's no chance that he's getting that. And then he threw it back on me. And I was like, actually that, that's pretty tough. I did know Cedric Gray, but I was like, I would not have tabbed him for the all underrated team. And I, off the top of my head, I don't know who is even playing next to him right now in Tennessee. Cody Barton

doing an awful lot of pointing at everyone else saying that's where the ball's going to go. And it's like, Cody, could you maybe effort over there for us? We're paying you some money. Maybe get in a position and make some plays. Cedric Gray's play style and demeanor is just Aziz Al-Shayir put into another body. Now, that's always boardline and reckless and you get all the

dumb penalties. But if that's your kind of linebacker, which is a throwback linebacker that you know the 30 of 32 coaches in the league are like, yes, please, sign me up for some Aziz Al-Shayor. Cedric Gray is the next incarnation of that. Yeah, I've just been waiting for the Brandon Spike's style of linebacker to come back into Vogue. I mean, Alandon Roberts is having a long career there, and he's kind of in that mold. All right, Shuck, give me your other linebacker.

A late arrival to my radar. We're going to the Rams here. Nate Landman, who's having an excellent year. I mean, obviously, he benefits from playing behind one of the top defensive fronts in football, but I'm not going to use that to take anything away from him. And the reason that he landed on my radar late

was because, yes, I'd known about him and I'd appreciate his contributions, but he made one of the greatest interceptions I've seen from a guy at linebacker against, on Jacobi Perced against the Cardinals last weekend. I just, he, Jacobi never saw him and he just full extension picks him off. And I'm like, oh, and they had been talking about him

on the broadcast earlier, and I was like, yeah, you are giving him his due, and he deserves that. But then he goes and makes a play almost on cue. I think that when you look at the Rams as a complete team and defensively, we always talk about that front four. We give credit to some of what they have in the secondary, but we seem to, I don't know,

maybe overlook a bit of what they have at the second level. We should stop doing that because Nate Lehman's having a really good year. So Nate Landman signed a contract extension that I think slipped under the entire NFL's radar because it was over Thanksgiving. They got him in for three years, $22.5 million extension. They basically signed him for nothing this offseason.

I'd have to go check, but I'm guessing it was like a million dollars or something or close to the minimum. The guarantee is only about $15 million. That's like for the next three years. They just got like a very low-cost linebacker who can stay on the field, who is doing a little bit of everything. If you want to know, like, how to succeed while you're paying Pukunakua's next contract and whatever you're paying Devante Adams,

if he's still on the team. It's like getting deals like that. Les Need has done a good job drafting and that was an amazing extension. Landman, I get it. I probably would do the same thing if I could imagine myself as an NFL player, but like he could have made a lot more money, frankly,

if he waited until he got to the open market. I'm sure you've loved watching him play too, Ollie. Oh, I love the landman. How could you not? The thing that is interesting about them and their linebacks in particular is that their threshold franchisees like just don't make mistakes.

all the fun stuff we do is in the front and then with the three safeties. Now, not with Quinton Lake. But when we have Quinton Lake, that's where all the fun in games happens. Just be in the right spots on time and never make a mistake. And Nate Landman just doffed his cap and was like, I will not do that, sir, and pay me $21 million. And that's what they did. And if that's the style of scheme you're running, which is, which is we'll keep the lineback clean and you just flow to the football and figure it out for us is really, really, really valuable.

And yet they got it a really cost effective deal. Yeah, he was with the Falcons previous. and he has that a knack for making big plays. And they've, it's been interesting. They said goodbye to Ernest Jones. They had a lot of faith in Omar Spate's, who's playing pretty well for them there. That's our linebackers. So let's take a quick break.

And we'll come back on the other side and we will do the defensive line, all underrated defense. Hey, what's up everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. You love breaking down football from every angle you're in the right place. Every week on Move the Six, Bucky Brooks and I dive deep into the game from the X's and O's to the front office moves shaping the league. We kick things off with Brian Baldinger, breaking down what really went down on Sunday. It is as good a timing rhythm offense as there is in the league right now.

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You hear that? That's the sound of the group chat going off when your fantasy team scores another touchdown in the playoffs. I'm J.J. Zachary Esen, host of the late round fantasy football podcast. Every move matters this time of year. So tune in daily to help build a championship roster to beat your friends, your family,

and that one coworker who won't stop talking. Literally. Listen to late-round fantasy football on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back on NFL Daily, Saturday Sickos.

This occurred to me, we're going to have Saturday NFL football pretty soon. That Bears Packers game is a Saturday night game in a couple weeks, a few days before Christmas. If you're listening to this on Saturday,

though, it is officially Rosenthal Christmas. right now. Celebrate it early. It's the last weekend day I have free before they leave for Japan the following week. So, you know, just happy Rosenthal Christmas to me. Let's go to the edge defenders. A lot of options here. We'll start with you, Shuki.

Okay. So as we went into this season, we looked at the Detroit Lions and we thought, all right, they got Aiden Hutchinson and they're already dealing with some injuries in the defensive front. And who's going to play opposite Aidan Hutchinson? Last year, it was Zadaria Smith came in in the middle of the year. What are they going to do? I'll tell you what they're going to do.

They're going to go to Al-Qadine Muhammad and say, get us nine sacks, make some big plays and big spots on national television, and become just about as productive of an edge rusher as Aiden Hutchinson this year. You don't believe me? I'll tell you about the numbers. He's fourth in quarterback pressure percentage among all edge rushers at 16.5%. That is 0.01 percentage points behind Aidan Hutchinson, which means they're getting about similar production,

and I talked about the nine sacks. he's made a difference. It hasn't been entirely consistent from week to week. Sometimes he disappears, but man, in those big spots, when they need a play, if it isn't Hutchinson, you see number 96 and you're like, oh, yeah, that is that guy that blew up earlier this year. Look at him making a play again. So I love what he's done for the Lions this year.

I think of him, too, as a like a hustle guy and he's going to clean it up, but we're watching him beat Terran Steel clean in that Thursday night game. Look, he started his career pretty well for the Colts, And then he was reduced to a point where he was just on the Lions practice squad. He was not even on an active roster. Anyone could have picked him up basically for free. But that's a good shout out. And it's just like they needed to get production from somewhere.

And you can't count on Marcus Davenport to stay healthy for long. My fear with the Lions defense in general is that they become really siloed and really packaged. And we do this on one down. Then we kind of change the defense on a sub-down. And we bring Mohammed in to do his thing. and I think that's why the production kind of ebbs and flows every week. The teams who have a good plan for knowing, we can kind of get the lines into what we want to get them to.

They start shifting the front around with McNeil and Williams and Hutchinson. You can kind of dictate the terms to them in a way that I think could get you smoked in a playoff game, unfortunately. But he is a full-on effort and hustle player. Great high-five guy. Great high-five guy. He gets to the backfield, meets Aidan, says, come on, buddy, good job. So I like, I admire the effort. I admire the gumption.

I think he's got a bit more juice than maybe I'm giving him credit for there. But as a one-on-one winner in the playoffs, when you're kind of tipping your hands on what you're doing as a defense, I have some reservations as a kind of second option alongside Aidan. Forget the playoffs. How about Saturday? I mean, Sunday this week against the Rams. I am definitely concerned about how that defense is going to look. I'm looking forward to that one, though. Give us an edge defender, Ali. I'm going with Nick Herbig with the Steelers, who I'm not sure is in any way underrated anymore, but I've had him listed on this team since he walked into the league. So I'm just going to persist with it until Mike Tomlin recognizes the brilliance before him. and stops rolling him off the field whenever Alex Highsmith becomes healthy and available again, he is potentially the most explosive guy off the ball in the entirety, particularly from a two-point stance.

Miles lives in probably a tear of his own, but just as a straight juice fly off the ball, Herbig is right there, with absolutely no defensive architecture to help a pass rush route, zero. And yet he flies off the ball, he wins inside, outside, spin move, dip and rip, whatever you want. He is, I think, a massively difference-making

passing pass rusher, and yet he has to spend half of the season begging for snaps. And so I find that very frustrating. He's played a lot more this season, and we've been able to see the kind of impact he can make. Yeah, like I, you know, when I was just writing down some names in case you guys didn't mention just to give little shoutouts, I was like, does Herbig still qualify? And the answer is absolutely yes, because I think on a national level, people still don't realize he's that quality of a pass rusher. And if Mike Tomlin is only going to play him, a combined, I counted him up,

56 snaps the last two weeks in in money time like when they absolutely need it then yes he is still underrated it i don't i don't get why it's mind-boggling and if you look at the way offenses treat him in terms like double team rate chip rate like all the offenses get it he's right there with like will anderson in terms like how offenses attribute resources to try and stop him while also having to deal with tj what and yet the coach in the other sidelines like take him off the field Alex Heismith is going back and and Alex Heisman is a good player, but T.J. Walt has a, Nick Herbig, excuse me,

has a different level of juice coming off the ball. Yeah, there was one, there was one snap I remember citing earlier this season where I saw, you know, they're sending the help to Herbig and Watts on the field and Watt makes a big play. And I was like, that's, that's pretty cool. Like Herbig is setting up Watt and it really says a lot. Who else do you got, Shuk? So I found myself in this exercise kind of falling on a bunch of rookies.

and maybe it's just because I'm, like, aspirational when it comes to this, and I'm optimistic, and I just like to project outward. But, like, I look at both of the Falcons' rookie edge rushers, which they spent two first-round picks on, which we can argue about whether that was good for them long-term. And I kind of mix and match between the two. Like, I have Jalen Walker here because he's more consistent than James Pierce, but then James Pierce has also had a sack in each of his last five games.

I'm not, like, a sacks-driven guy or anything. But I do like what Walker kind of brings to the table that you're able to project outward, because he's just very consistent. PFF had a grading article the other day where they said he's one of the lowest negatively graded players in the rookie class, which I think bodes really well for you long term, that even if you're not showing up in the metrics

or maybe it's not a per play basis where you're making a difference, disrupting the past or anything else, as long as you can put together consistent reps as a rookie, I think that bodes really well for you long term. So when you kind of dive into that, he looks better and more reliable, on a snap-by-snap basis,

and then you pair that with Pierce, who has become more productive over the last month and a half. And I like the direction that they're headed in, even if they're maybe headed for a regime change as well. You got on the Falcons for this trade, Ali. A lot of people did, not the Jalen Walker pick, but going for Pierce.

It kind of reminds me of the Pelicans trade for any NBA fans out there where everyone absolutely killed them for trading away their first for Derek Queen. And that was a bad trade, and yet Derek Queen is looking pretty good. Has Pierce convinced you at all that this trade wasn't completely insane?

Not in the slightest, no. I respect Shook's opinion mightily, as you know. I still think he's a one-track player and he is getting a tremendous amount of scheme protection and scheme help. And if he was just left in a one-on-one assignment in a down-for defense, I think he would get swallowed up

and he'd have the three or four splash plays because he can move off the ball like a few people in the NFL. Jalen Walker, though, Chuck's pick, I've told you before. I think we're dealing with something unbelievably special with this guy. I think he moves differently.

The brain is at a completely different speed to most rookies you see playing there. Block recognition, block destruction. As all these guys speak about in the offseason to these young guys, no one sees it, reads it, and kills it as quick as this guy as a rookie. So you add that to then the physical makeup, which is all the potential is like a put the hand in the dirt

and get after it past Russia. I think he's a truly, truly special one. Which is crazy because they're asking him to do a lot of new things, but maybe you guys are more college guys than me. Maybe Kirby, I don't know, maybe that defense is so crazy that they're somehow mentally prepared to do a lot of different things in the NFL? I don't know.

There's a reason how he Roseman keeps going back to the Georgia well to get defenders. And it's not just, you know, a circumstance. Like, it's, these players come NFL ready and they tend to be specimens. They're four and five star recruits. They spend three, four years in Kirby's defense. They're ready. And you pair that with the athleticism, the natural talent, and you see why they produce as a rookie like Walker has.

Who else you got? Ali. I've got Josh Heinz Allen, who probably is not slightly as underrated now, but I don't think he's being discussed quite the level he's reached now. He has the same number of quick pressures this year as Miles Garrett. Now, Garrett has all the sacks and all the finishing and all the holy bleep. Did he just do that moments? That Josh Heinz Allen doesn't quite play that way. He's a bit more structured in the rush. So you can kind of like go past you if you don't have these, you know, breaking through a triple team as Miles Garrett did against the Patriots, if that's not quite there to like go viral or whatever. But in terms of consistent,

down-to-down production. He has just become a complete force and menace. I watched last weekend, him throw Quinton Nelson into the backfield and on the safety play that Riley Leonard had. That's Josh Hines Allen coming in on a stun and flattening. There he goes. Throwing Quinter Nelson to the ground. Give me the quarterback. So his burst, his speed to power. As I said, he's still kind of a in-the-box type passorship, but that box is pretty damn productive. He also, you know, signed a contract in the 2024 off season, which is aging very well, like they do,

if you make them long enough. I know it's like an average per year over to 34 and a half, but the first few years is very reasonable. And he's done something which I think is very hard to do. He has probably been the Jaguar's best player for three years straight, like three, four years straight,

not just on defense, just who is a better player on the Jack? Like he has been the best player. for their franchise for a number of years straight and that kind of consistency is awesome. And you're right, he doesn't get thought of as much. Who else should I? Should we just throw out little names? Do you have any other? I have a name.

I'm going back to the rookies again. Donovan Azaraku in Dallas with the Cowboys. I love what he's shown so far. I think his trajectory, not quite limitless, but pretty close. You know, he's, he's good at pressuring quarterbacks. He's good at run stopping. Like, he's going to be one of the top rookies of this class. And I think that while we have spent so much time

talking about how they got rid of Michael Parsons and everything else, I think they've done a fairly good job of reconstructing that front, and Ezraq is going to be a key part of it. He has really blurry speed. He does have a little bit of the thing where if you're just really active with your hands and you move a lot, it looks like you're doing an awful amount, where sometimes it's better just be like controlled and understand what you're doing. But I admire the hustle. I admire

his game an awful lot. The other guy I would throw in there would be Yaya Diabi, who I think is in this Josh Hines-Alan mode where it's like big physical imposing and attack the inside shoulder from out to in all power rush, and that is so incredibly valuable. If you can get someone with real speed up the arc off the other side, and I think we saw it early in the season when Hassan Reddick was healthy, how different the book's front look, because they have this, like, perfect blend of a guy who goes out to win

and a guy who swoops around the ag, and you kind of have to build a pass rushing package together with all the different skill sets. Not everyone's going to be Miles Garrett, Micah Parsons, and be able to do every single thing for you, but Diabia is an incredibly effective, valuable pass rusher. Yeah, Diabia, with the Buccaneers, he's been good. Byron Young has had a breakout season for the Rams as an edge who's pretty good on

on every down and he's going to get a nice contract if it's not from the Rams. And then just a shout to my beloved over the years, DeMarcus Lawrence, still getting it done. You can pick a lot of Seahawks, really, DeMarcus Lawrence. Derek Hall is an interesting player who's just a really good player and very powerful. So is Lawrence. They're different and yet they kind of remind me of each other. And so those guys have been underrated too. to the interior.

We'll wrap it up here, Ali. Who do you like? I'm going to go with a guy I think was on your All Vives team. I'm going to go with Kobe Turner from the Rams. And I watch him and I think that he's kind of the spiritual successor, not quite at this level. Don't want to be too hyperbolic just because of players I love watching. But in kind of play style and how he sees and views and executes the game,

to Cam Haywood, where it's a lot of lateral quicks, it's a lot of smart, it's a lot of understanding the angles and throwing guys the other way. And he's really quick moving, actually, that's kind of where he makes most of his money. But there is a real different level of understanding in tight, confined spaces of how to play, how to dress a blocker, how to free guys up to the landmands of the world can go and get paid. You know, Lamish may be, you know, talks a couple of dollars his way for that contract. He's a absolutely mauler and killer inside.

And such a nice guy off the field, which is why he made the vibes team. Like, just you never know what, like, the personality. change is going to be, but he just seems like a fun-loving guy who loves to be out there playing ball, and he's a wrecking ball. Who do you got, Chuck? I try to kind of dig deep on this, just because underrated, I wanted people that, like, you know, I run to a guy at the gym and he's talking to me about his team. I'm like, yeah, but did you notice this guy in your team? They're like, no, I know his number, though. And I'm going Jalen Redmond, the defensive tackle for the Vikings. He has had a phenomenal season. Now, I know they've had their struggles, but it seems on a week-to-week basis,

He is always making a play in the backfield. He is stuffing the run. He's sixth among all defensive tackles, according to next gen, in run stops. His quarterback pressure percentage is near 10%, which as we know, that's pretty difficult to achieve as a defensive tackle if your name is not Aaron Donald. And he's like right somewhere between Vita Vea and John Franklin Myers in that category, which tells me, first year in the NFL, you're going to have quite a good career. Not to mention, he's just a load.

Like, he's a guy that plays with tenacity and unbridled enthusiasm where he's just going at 100 miles an hour all. the time and he's producing big plays as a result. So I think that, you know, on a front that they also added like Jonathan Allen and everything, Redmond's been the star. And I think he's going to be continue to be a star for them for years to come. I love like the no name defensive tackles. I'll just throw out like the guys on the Texans. They're kind of underated. Yes. This is one of mine too. Okay. Okay. Just go. Toggiye set Tim Settle, whoever, whoever you want. Yeah, I was all Togia. This is a guy who came from Ohio State who started with the Browns, who I thought had a lot of

potential and never really saw the field in Cleveland. And he, he's another. guy where you're just on a week to week basis, you watch the Texans, and suddenly out of nowhere, it's Tommy Toggiye making a play. And then it's a test of can the broadcaster properly pronounce his last name? There's a lot of guys won't. But he just consistently is in the backfield. He's great against the run. And he's another player that just plays with violence and desire that is just like never limited. And I think it's also because of the depth that they have up front that he's able to do that. But man, in so many key spots, there's Tommy Togia, the old Buckeye making a difference. Ollie, who do you got for your interior, guys?

The last one I'm going to go with, I went through about five or six different names. I'm going to go with Malik Collins from the Browns because he just got shut down for the season. And I'm not sure we've ever seen a 10th year breakout star. A guy who you've just waited on and waited on and wait. I don't know if he went to Kobe Bryant's clinic in Germany or whatever, did some kind of blood spitting,

but he came back with a level of burst off the ball. I've never seen in play with which you've waited for every 10 years we've waited for this coming out of college to say, is that player ever going to make it in the NFL? He gets to Cleveland. They just say, hey, don't worry about anything that we're doing over then attack the quarterback. That's all we care about. And his interplay with Miles Garrett was a huge part of the early season success they had.

And it's going to be interested, I think, to see what they look like down the stretch now that he's out. Disappointing that he was going to get rewarded for that, too. He was a free agent. Selfishly, too, I'm making these lists. And just like the Raven signed Travis Jones on Thursday. And it's like, oh, there's another name to cross off. Pretty good player. Not perfect, but would have been a fun guy.

And it's just like anyone decent, you're just crossing them off these free agency lists. And unfortunately, Malie Collins is going to hurt. Wait, you said you had five or six that to choose her. I mean, you could give us some rapid fire, even if they're not the official selections. Give some people some love. I mean, we could keep going down with Christian Baumar and the bounce back year in New England. He's been good. He's been through health-wise as being sensational.

Calais Campbell. I don't think we're still quite recognizing. Obviously, he's a ginormous name, but what he's doing and the production he's putting up in that unit this season to me is just out of control. You mentioned Tim Settle was a guy I had on my long list.

I like going with someone on that defensive line because everyone else gets all the credit on that defense, including my great love, Jalen Petrie, who has the glue that holds everything together. But having that rotation of guys in the interior to collapse the pocket up front is kind of what helps those two superstars

on the outside out. I got one more. We're going to go over to New York. We're going to go to the Jets, a team that doesn't have a lot to smile about. Joanne Briggs has had an excellent year for them in the interior.

He's another guy like Togia that just consistently makes place. He kind of fits closer to the Jalen Redmond mold. And maybe it's because he also is a former Brown and I've just had my eye on interior defensive lineman

with potential. But I swear, man, every week he seems to be one of the shining stars of this front. And there aren't a lot of them at this point. I mean, they're more on the edge than the interior.

But he just consistently blows plays up. He splits double teams. He splits, you know, zone schemes. He's got an innate sense for what's going on in front of him, and then he uses his strength and his power to finish plays off. I really like where he's headed in his career. I like the vigorous head nod from Ali

when he heard Joanne Briggs. This is proof. It's the Saturday Sickco show. Eric had Joanne Briggs tape ready. A national show is talking to Juan Briggs. Why the vigorous head shake? I just did a deep evaluation of him this week. I cannot believe Shug brought him up. It's so exciting. Yeah, I

I can't believe how good and impactful he is down to down. Now, there are some reps in the run game. He tries to split every double team. And sometimes you do that and you get dog walked back into the linebacker. You are, yeah, yeah, you are black. That's just the life you live. But he has really, he has top end juice for, like, undersized interior lineman. And I can't believe they just kind of, they lose Quinn and Williams.

He has replaced the production Quinn and Williams was giving to the Jets. Quinn is obviously a significantly better player and is more impactful with the Cowboys. but the production he was actually offering the team early in the season as being replaced by breaks and that was not something I was expecting. You know, Darren Mugi, their GM, weird offseason, but he has had a lot of good trades. He was a trade pickup.

They basically gave up nothing to her. They picked up Harrison Phillips in a trade. Like, he's been pretty useful for them. And then, you know, the Soss Gardner trade, that was like a little bit of luckier that, you know, the Colts draft pick is getting better and better. But I think he did pretty well in the Quinn and Williams. and Saskarter Trade.

So, Darren Mugi, getting it done. I was listening to the All-PHLY podcast. They were talking about who was their defensive MVP this year. And they had Jordan Davis on the podium. I was like, okay, that seemed a little much, but it has been the best Jordan Davis season, certainly. Eventually, I think they settled on, yes, Cooper DeGene, Quinion Mitchell are better players and more valuable.

But in terms of, like, beating expectations for what they thought and has been really important to them, and Davis has had a nice year. And then an annual guy, I always think, is under it. There's always a couple guys like this that they just float around. They sign late or just a team brings him back at the last second. It's like, Dayquan Jones for the Buffalo Bill. It's like, you just put him back in there and he'll eat some innings for you

and he'll be totally solid. And he's like been doing that his entire career. It's like one of those guys never gets any respects. A little love for Dayquins. I'm going to give one more shout out. Tierra Tart with the Chargers. I told you there were multiple chargers here. I just love what he's done this year.

I love the way he started this season, batten down passes against the Chiefs in week one. And his grades are really good, too. And he's another guy that, like, you kind of have to watch closely to see the difference that he makes. But I'm a big fan. I don't know. Maybe I'm just, I'm partial to big interior linemen who blow things up and make a difference that nobody really pays attention to. That might just be my thing. I think it's everyone's thing.

We're dangerously close to just like a naming some guys podcast right here. There's nothing that's excited me more than being on a dudes naming guys podcast with Nick Schoke. That's like all I've ever wanted in my career. It's finally happened. The last couple of names I would just like to read out to you is the Denver Broncos guys get, I feel like zero love nationally. It's just penciled in that they are great. Vance gets a lot of the credit and deservedly so because he just operates at a different level to most people in the league. But you look through their roster how deep they run, the volume of packages they run and how those guys got to the team.

One of them is just obviously Zach Allen comes with Vance. It's like if I'm coming to Denver, Zach is coming with me or I'm not taking the gig. But the rest of it is all these undrafted guys, wherever we mentioned Justin Strannard earlier as a late round pig. It's McMillan, it's Singleton, it's Tillman, it's Roach. It's just all these undrafted guys leading this historic level of defense. And yes, they've got Benito and Cooper and these absolute speeds is off the edge. But the pieces that tie it together are all these just well-coached, well-drilled,

nowhere-to-be type players. Yeah, I can't wait to see what they look like in this stretch run where they have very difficult game after very difficult game. It starts on Sunday against the Packers. That's the next time we'll be in your feed for the big time week. Whatever you have, 15 recap. The stretch run has started. Thanks to Ali.

Thanks to Shook. Glad we got you two together. Made this magic happen. But we can do it again. We can do another name with some guys podcast, Ali and Shook. We will see you on Sunday night. Shook will be there with myself, Jordan, and Patrick. We will see them.

Hey everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else. It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? It's Cam Jordan. I'm back with season three of your favorite podcast, The Off the Edge with Cam Jordan podcast. Tap in every Wednesday to hear conversations with my friends and stars for the NFL, the sports world in general, and entertainment. I buy anything from teams and players making waves to pop culture.

And I'll take you inside my journey through my 15th season in the NFL. Looking forward to you joining me this season, the season of more on the Off the Edge with Cam Joined podcast. Catch new episodes every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage. Store more and do more with your data. Try them for free at wasabi.com. You hear that?

That's the sound of the group chat going off when your fantasy team scores another touchdown in the playoffs. I'm J.J. Zachary Esen, host of the late round fantasy football podcast. Every move matters this time of years. So tune in daily to help build a championship roster to beat your friends, your family, and that one co-worker who won't stop talking. Literally. Listen to late-round fantasy football in the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant.

And I'm Michael Fiorio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.