NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Saturday Sickos: Coaching Carousel Predictions and Best Candidates

Episode Date: December 20, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal and Ollie Connolly look ahead to the possible moves that could come in the coaching circle of the NFL find out what they think the future holds for Kevin Stefanski, Pete Carroll (04:20), Jonathan Gannon (08:15), Raheem Morris (10:15), Zac Taylor (12:30), Aaron Glenn (15:30), Shane Steichen (21:19), and Mike Tomlin and John Harbaugh (26:08). Plus, why Mike McCarthy (37:50), Robert Saleh (41:10), and Jesse Minter (43:00) among others should be getting looks to fill vacancies.  Note: time codes approximate.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's a tough sport. It's not for everybody. You've got to be a little sick to love this game and we've got some sickos. Welcome to NFL Daily, Saturday Sickos edition. And yes, NFL Daily is a place where you have to be a little sick to go through all the different men in the league that might be losing their jobs in the coming weeks. But we're not dunking on them.

We're not celebrating the fact that it does really pique the interest, I think, of all the teams that are out of the mix in the NFL. I'm Greg Rosenthal. I'm with Ali Connolly from the Read Optional podcast and Substack. Are you ready to go through all of the coaching situations? And then at the end, get a little more positive. Talk about the candidates we might want to see get jobs in the next. this cycle. I'm very ready. Maybe a couple of guys I would dunk on, I think. Just a couple. Just a couple here are there. That's fine. Some intriguing potential openings.

Yeah. Now you're not technically like an employee of the NFL, so you can do that. That's what you're bringing from another continent that you're just feeling free and easy. I heart's taking care of Ali. So you can say whatever you want about the Cleveland Browns. No, actually, they have a good head coach. So here's what I'm going to do. To start the show, I'm just going to break it up. And you can disagree with how I broke it up, but basically go through all the situations that we think there's going to be a change or could be a change, maybe come up with a number at the end of the rough over under of how many coaching changes there's going to be. Talk about some potential surprises. And then at the end, we'll go through some of the candidates we think will be popular

on this cycle. So I went with four definites. We'll call this he gone or they're already open. and the Giants, they've already made a change at head coach. And the other two I would put in this category would be the Cleveland Browns and the Las Vegas Raiders. I've been wrong before, but I just can't see a scenario where they bring back Kevin Stefanski. I believe they're going to do a full reboot in Cleveland in terms of the front office and the head coaching staff. Do you agree with that? I agree with that. And I think it's time. Sifanski, I watched. now and he just seems so fatigue and tired that to kind of get up and go again, I think is tough. And I think looking at the cycle in general that I know he's probably going to be in the

mix because of how thin the other options are. But I would really advise Kevin Stefanski, not that he cares about my opinion, to go and do the year off stuff, go and do the tour, go and do the Mike McCart thing, go and sit and do the McAfee show for you or whatever, go and do the Vrable thing, get on someone's sideline for year and just take a year out to chill. Get yourself back in the next cycle. I think he's as ready to go as they are ready to move on. Yeah, I think that benefited Mike Vrable.

I guess we'll never know what the Patriots would have looked like a year before if they had hired Vrable instead of Mayo, but it just makes logical sense. He's a two-time coach of the year winner. Here's the thing, though, we'll go through. There's not like slam dunk options to hire this year, and I think Kevin Savansky will be high on some teams's list. But I think when you make the case for the Brown's front office, too,

and you think, well, this draft class is great. And then you look at the cap situation they're in next year. And if you actually just even remove the Deshaun Watson of it all, you know, the worst trade in the history of the NFL, they have so many veteran players that aren't going to be on the team next year or shouldn't be on the team next year that they're going to be paying, that aren't even there. And that's all because of the front office.

And whatever their identity was, it's gone now. Like, that offensive line, like, does not exist anymore. So I think you need a total fresh start in Cleveland. I agree with you because even the positives would be okay. We have a league leading defense. We know how up and down that is year to year, kind of some crucial contributors are older or aging and probably won't be on the team next season.

You've got to re-sign them at fat deals. And then that thing would just fall apart. Maybe Jim Schwartz gets hired elsewhere. Maybe you bring in a new ed coach who doesn't want to work with Jim Schwartz. So trying to think that thing can sustain throughout. I think you just thank Andrew Barry for drafting Carson-Swessinger and Quinn.

and Judkins and Harold Fennon, and you see him on his way. Yeah, the Raiders are the other team here. And I do want, I wonder if Jim Schwartz, we didn't write him down as retreads. He certainly will be a popular defensive coordinator candidate. I wonder if Cleveland would even think about him if they, if they just want to elevate him and not get too funky.

That wouldn't totally shock me. The Raiders are the other team here. I just can't see how Pete Carroll survives this. I think they'll keep the front office and give that front office a chance to make another head coaching higher. It's just been one of the most disorganized, like one and done looking seasons from the outside

that I can imagine. Do you agree there? Yeah, I didn't think anywhere I could get more dysfunctional than Gerard Mayo in New England. Somehow, Pete, one of the all-time greats, find a way to top it, and just their thought process throughout. So they go from Tom Brady, who is running the organization. I get Raiders fans all the time telling me.

He's not running the organization. You're overstating it. Pete Carroll, at his press conference said, this is Tom Brady's chance to run a franchise. So they go from Ben Johnson and Matthew Staff does a package deal to Pete Carroll trading for Gino Smith. He brings his buddy in from Michigan, John Spitech.

He worked with the books. They draft their running back sixth overall and they turn him over to Pete's kid running the offensive line. The worst group and coaching job I've seen in 15 years running an offensive line. So they do that. They make Chip Kelly, the highest paid coordinator

in the history of the sport. Whatever you think of Chip Kelly, personality skills, all that stuff. It'd be nice if you paid someone that much money to let them do the job they were hired to do. They bring back Patrick Graham, which I thought was a sensible idea, but then tell him to run not his defense, to run Pete's defense from like 12 years ago

that's completely outdated. It is the most dysfunctional situation, I think you could imagine. And the only thing I think you can hold on to to have some kind of overlay and some kind of language continuity between the entire franchise would be to keep SpyTech and reset again with the staff. Yeah, and this is the time of year that you get a lot of reports in the media

that are thinly veiled attempts to blame the coach or the front office, and we've had some of that in Vegas. But sometimes it's convincing. And you just made the convincing case of why Carol ultimately, when you're looking at the draft picks too, that some of these guys were Carol's guys that I'm okay blaming it on Carol for this year. Obviously, nothing is 100% one guy's fault, but I'm okay with them redoing it.

It's not his fault, but he's clearly the power center of the organization. organization. The draft picks look like his draft picks from the end in Seattle, and yet then they don't play. So if the front office was like, could you please play the rookies anyway that we selected, he chooses not to play. And we get the weird reports where the rookies are trying out along the offensive line because the line stinks. And then he pulls it last second being like, you know what, they're not very good. You just can't have that kind of stuff. And he was supposed to bring an organizational competence. That was the point, then handed off to someone else after a couple of seasons. It's one of the biggest misfires I think

we've seen in recent times that the one last job does not work in the NFL i do think it's a it's a young man's game or at least like whatever you want to say when you're in your 50s and 60s on your second job that that part of your career i i will get agist it reminds me a lot of the mike home grin presidential era in cleveland not as a coach uh when he was the the front office guy in cleveland it's just like yeah pique carroll can buy a lot more boats now i will say that I'm a big fan of the retread candidates more than consensus. Everyone likes the hot, new young thing. I think if you look at the history of the league,

whether it's Belichick in New England, Vrable in New England now, Pete in Seattle, Gary Kubiak. I think there's a lot to be said for the retread guy, Stefansky, I would be intrigued by. But I think they get the second chance, and you've always got to have one year out. You've got to go recharge, you go around, you prove your energy,

you go and discover new ideas, you build a new younger staff around you. I think doing it at that age was a step too far. Hell, how about John Fox's Broncos making it to the Super Bowl? I don't know if that's a winner or not. Okay, now in my next category. And so that's four teams we have

that I feel pretty confident about. Although the reporting in Cleveland in Vegas hasn't been clear. It's just you've seen enough of these situations before to have a good feel. The two I'm leaning that there will be a change. I thought about putting the Falcons in the definite category. I did not,

but I think Rahim Morris is certainly in trouble. And even though the reporting's been mixed in Arizona, I've just seen enough of these where when a team starts getting their teeth kicked in over and over at the end of the year, it's year three, which is supposed to be the big build year. Jonathan Gannon's a defensive coach. I've liked a lot of the things they've done

over the last few years. It's been an interesting team to watch that, I think overachieve for two years and then now underachieving this year. I just think the way this season is gone, I'd be a little surprise if Gannon is there, barring some three-game winning streak at the end of the season, which can always change things.

Even then, I think to the Rams game, and for the entire second half, they are completely blown out, and the cameras just hold on Monty Austin Ford, sat next to Michael Bidwell for like two straight hours, and he's telling him, trust me, the roster's pretty good, go look at the draft class, Will Johnson, Walter Nolan. Not bad if you look at the defensive draft class,

this isn't me, this is Jonathan, it's Nick, and I think it's pretty clear those guys themselves are like looking for property in my own. or something like that, because it just feels like everything's checked out and it's done. Yeah, and you figure Kyler Murray is done with this organization. That's assuming Austin Fort is there, which I would tend to believe he'll get another chance, but you never know what the bidwells. The Cardinals have been an unpredictable organization over the years.

And so, like, they have some pieces. They're not in the worst situation. Would you rather be the next head coach of the Falcons or the Cardinals? Falcons for division, not for the roster. If you gave me the roster straight up, I'd probably take the Cardinals one at a push, but to be in the NFC South, I would prefer to be in the NFC West.

Yeah, it is tricky. If you put the Cardinals even in the NFC South this year, who knows, we might be talking about just like a six and eight team that's vaguely disappointing, but got by because there were a lot of close losses early for that Cardinals team. Do you think they'll clean out

if you had to guess Rahim, and Terry Fontenow. Terry Fontenow, you know, that would be a third head coach that he would get to hire if they didn't. And I'm like holding out a little space here when we're doing this three weeks out

that sometimes these final weeks can change things. These two teams actually play each other on Sunday. And if Atlanta ever got something going down the stretch, maybe Arthur Blank could convince himself to give this group another chance. I would lean towards, if I was Arthur Blank, I think I'd lean towards keeping Rahim

and letting Terry go. I think Terry's the worst talent evaluator and executive in the NFL. It's flat out. I think he's bad at this. And I think his major key decisions prove that and you can't have

as many seismic bad decisions as he's had. Training a first round pick for James Pierce, giving them when he's cousins, drafting Michael Pennix. Individually, they're all fireable offenses. He's got three of them on the rap sheet. And I do think Arthur Blank

will sit back and look and say, Bill Belich, disaster at North Carolina. But that was kind of my door-bee option. This guy convinced me not to do it because he was scared of his own job and all of the staff around him, which I get self-preservation understand, but maybe I should have taken Door B and given it a chance. And so I think they'll do that now.

I would be inclined to give Rahim one last go-around. Just because the options are pretty thin. I really respect him. I think what he's done defensively, Jeff Ulbrook has been pretty impressive, remaking it and making it better than the sum of the parts Terry has given to him. So I'd be open to that eventuality. It's just hard to see that they would do kind of a nuclear reset

at the front office scouting department and also keep the head. coach you mentioned old brick who we didn't write down on our defensive guys i mean this this is a kind of a wide open group of candidates who knows he he could get some looks maybe even by the falcons yeah rahim i thought he'd be better second time around i don't think it's crazy but i also think it's dangerous when if you're looking for a general manager requiring him to keep the head coach that's there it's always a little tricky okay so if those two were gone and I'm just leaning that way with Atlanta

that would be six which maybe is around my over under my next two teams where I'm leaning safe are the Bengals and the Jets I think the Bengals should make a change do you agree that they should make a change oh it's two years overdue with Zach Taylor I think

and it's really tricky I don't want to psychoanalyze Joe Burrow with the stuff going on you know the press conferences and all that jazz if they're going to make a change I think the easiest most palatable one to make is to go and get Joe Brady from the bills. I don't think every coaching candidate

is a fit for every job. I think those guys are very rare. I think Vrable and Johnson the last cycle. Other than that, you're looking for a very specific guy for a very specific place based on what you have. I think someone needs to push Joe Borough more than he's being pushed in his life. And the guy to do that would be the person

he had the most success in his life with Joe Brady at LSU. Joe Brady has evolved his style of offense. Joe Borough desperately needs to accept and evolve his style of play as he kind of matures through the stage of his career. And so if you bring in a guy who you really respects had the best time of his life with in college, I think that would be a really smart fit and a really smart change. Otherwise, I'm not sure it would be worth just kind of ripping Zach Taylor out to just

put any name being there. So, Zach Taylor took a lot of questions at his last press conference about a report that his contract had been extended without it being reported previously until 2027. So that would mean there would be two years left on the deal that he would not be lame duck coach next year, which was always a conversation towards the end of Marvin Lewis. Sometimes they let it go to the end. Sometimes they wouldn't. And then Marvin Lewis would just stay. I'm assuming that report is correct based on the way Zach Taylor answered the questions,

which were non-answers. That made me really feel like he is going to be safe. And the people that cover that team generally don't think Duke Tobin, who really is their personnel chief, is in any sort of trouble. That there's almost like a zero percent chance Duke Tobin would lose his job. and that Zach Taylor is not far off from that 0%. You never know, though. Like, you just seen enough of these seasons end.

They just lost two straight games to, you know, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. If you happen to lose three more in a row to Quinn Ures, Jacoby Brissette, and Shudur Sanders, like that might make it tough. So win some of these games. I know it shouldn't matter, but like if it did, I don't know. It feels like based on how they've operated the last year,

like the most impactful guy in the building was Luana Ruma they kicked him out, they blamed him for everything. So it feels like the logic doesn't play into things with them. Obviously, it's heavily money-based. It feels like it's really up to Joe Burrow. If he just went and knocked on the door and had the meeting, he could probably have the power to get this thing done. He had the power to make them go and build a roster in a ludicrous way in the modern game because he wanted to keep all his pals around and paying big money, get himself some big money. So could he just knock on the door and say, I think this thing is run its course. That's why I'm unhappy playing the sport. If I had someone new and him, maybe I would

enjoy it a little bit more. I think that's kind of where it sits. And I have not seen anything that would suggest that... I mean, Dagdale lets Joe Borough do everything he wants to do on offense. So does he really want to go and chase something new? I would hope that he does. The Jets are the other team I just threw in here. Just because Floreo, Mike Floreo, threw it out.

Knowing him, working for him, there's probably something to that. I don't think he's just throwing it out. So that was surprising to me that he would even put that up as a possibility. that Aaron Glenn could be one and done, but the Jets are as chaotic a franchise in making these types of decisions as we have. So you can't totally rule it out.

How have you felt about Aaron Glenn's first year, post Steve Wilkes firing now? Yeah, disaster. I think he should be one and done. I don't think they'll do it. And I think they've got to look at it now and say it's a different job than the one we hired him for.

We hired him for this kind of like mini reset. We were going to sign Justin Fields as a bridge quarterback multi-ead deal. think we've got young talent. The defense should be good. He's a defensive guy. It's been an abomination all the way around, both kind of the culture and the style and the environment there. Then the on-field performance. They have players quitting all the time. I thought that lineback has quit in like week nine. Then Steve Wilkes leaks, uh, not very well that he believed the linebackers quit in like week 12. He was a couple of weeks late to figure that out. Um,

and so it's now a job where it's a full on reset with this massive cash of ammunition to go and reinvigorate the franchise. And do you want to turn that over to him? Now, you could all the personnel decisions and then hand it off to someone else in a couple of years, I would just like to have a full reset and go again with the guy we think could be here six, seven, eight years. And I just don't see it with Glenn. Sometimes you just get the feeling and you know immediately like this is not going to work out for five, six years. And I just have that feeling with Aaron Glenn. You make a case. And it makes me think maybe it is more possible in general because of the history there. You mentioned the Steve Wilkes source.

I think you're referring to the Josina Anderson tweet. But to assume that that was Steve Wilkes in the tweet that he was the source, and it's a wild one, check out Josina Anderson Jett's tweet from this week. You would have to assume then that Steve Wilkes is sort of talking in the third person about Steve Wilkes to Jacina Anderson. That is true. It could also be really bad reportage in which you're trying to cover up the source, but you accidentally leave two people. bits in the early part of the quote that reveals the source. That's been done before. I mean, their linebackers have been bad.

I'll back up that source. Not just the linebackers. This is for the true sickos. One thing I always do towards the end of the season when teams I think are quitting is you go and you pull up their interception return tape. How interested are they in interception return? It tells you everything about our football team. Used to be kickoff stuff.

We don't got that no more. Interception return. They don't even have an interception return to pull up the tape to find out if these guys care to actually play football anymore. and the interested in blocking is the sideline going crazy. A guy's racing out there to celebrate from the offensive side. You watch the Niners, just a decimated squad. You can go and find the Lenore interception against the Texans.

Everyone is trying to race out onto the field before the play's even over. They are so fired up and giddy to have got the ballback. Everyone is looking for work. Everyone's punching. Upton Stout is running all over the place. The Jets don't even have that. I went to look at passes deflected to see if those won. Those guys thought they had.

So then they would get involved in the action. Don't even have that on film. So it's just a limp, lifeless defense to me, which is what he was brought in to completely regenerate. If that's the selling point, I think that's just been proven to be wrong. Yeah, and they had a moment. It was that victory over the Falcons, which was a very strange game, if you watch that, where I thought, okay, Aaron Glenn has talked all year about the 2021 lions, their first season there, about how towards the end of the season, yes, they started out.

with a horrible record with Jared Gough. He lost his first seven games. But by the end of the season, they were playing hard. You could see the vision. It was resulting in some wins, but you could just more see it on the field. And I thought, okay, that Falcons win,

maybe this is the start of something. And, yeah, in the two weeks since they've gotten absolutely destroyed and the defense has been a total disaster. This is the thing, though, that selling point of the Lions includes this idea that Dan Campbell, he took play calling Jutoff Anthony Lynn, he took it for himself,

and he got Ben Johnson. So it's the Steve Wilkes a sacrificial lamb to that because that happened way early in the year. And Dan Campbell's had a very clear vision for when we are good, when we're playing in a title game, this is what the team will look like. And this isn't acceptable. It does not look like that right now.

I don't get that vibe of Aaron Glenn that he understands today what a Jets team under Aaron Glenn would look like in the AFC title game. And like, we're racing towards that vision in the final four weeks. You'll kind of see the small members of it. Yeah, it's also a team who I wouldn't, you know, I rarely think the NFL teams are tanking

because obviously the players on the field are playing for various reasons. Some of them are not giving great effort, as you point out. But others are and are on a con, you know, I think they're trying to win when they're out there. But they are playing Brady Cook this week. I should have noted on our preview show

in a week where it does appear that Justin Fields and or Tyrod Taylor might be available. So that's about as close to tanking as you really see. It is that and continue to play Quincy Williams is like, oh, boys, if we're out of this thing. Okay, why don't we take a quick break just because I think this is a good spot for it.

So we've gone over eight situations. We're leaning that there'll be about six gone, but Bengals and Jets are a couple to watch. I'm most fascinated in this cycle about the potential surprises because we could get some big names available based on how the end of the season goes. We'll talk a little bit about the Ravens, Colts,

and Bills after the break. Hey, what's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. If you love breaking down football from every angle, you're in the right place. Every week on Move the 6th, Bucke Brooks and I dive deep into the game from the X's and O's to the front office moves shaping the league. We kick things off with Brian Baudinger, breaking down, but really went down on Sunday. It is as good a timing rhythm offense as there is in the league right now.

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Every week, Florio, LQ, and I bring you the latest news from around the league. We break down every matchup, give you our analysis and advice so you know who to start, sit, drop, and trade to bring that championship trophy home. I just want to remind everyone how good Rishi Rice was last season. And there's three healthy games. He was the wide receiver 2 in fantasy. I think Rishie Rice just goes off this week. The Chiefs come on a flip pass to Rice. This side, touchdown!

Remandre Stevens is my sleeper this week. This is a matchup where I think I can slide in Stevenson into my flex position and he could deliver double-digit points this week. Drake takes the snap, hands it off. Remodry running it right and running into the end zone. Touchdown! It's never too late to turn your fantasy season around. to the NFL fantasy football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? It's Cam Jordan. I'm back with Season 3 of your favorite podcast, The Off The Edge with Cam Jordan podcast. Tap in every Wednesday to hear conversations with my friends and stars for the NFL, the sports world in general, and entertainment.

About anything from teams and players making waves to pop culture. And I'll take you inside my journey through my 15th season in the NFL. Looking forward to you joining me this season, the season of more, on the Off the Edge with Cam Join podcast. Catch new episodes every Wednesday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Brought to you by Liberty Mutual Insurance. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Back on NFL Daily. If you're listening to this, it's probably Saturday. We got Saturday games. Maybe it's Sunday. We've already happened.

We've got college football playoff games. I'm wearing my RMFW two-lane sweatsher, if you know, you know. So let's hope that it's going well in the alternate universe that you're listening to this. Let's talk about what could be the most interesting part of this coaching cycle. And that's the teams with big-name coaches where the last handful of weeks of the season could change things. And maybe someone big shakes loose. And I'll start with the Colts, who I've asked around a little bit about. And I think there's a bigger chance that Shane Seichen does not keep his job than the public would assume because A, he's coached pretty well, I think, considering their situation, you can see it.

You saw the vision for it, obviously, with Daniel Jones. Everyone wants a good play caller. And then B, you can't really blame this collapse on him when all the players that were making it happen suddenly get hurt on defense, on offense. Obviously, it was happening. And so logically, you're like, oh, yeah, you would keep Shane Steakin. And who knows, maybe they will win some games with Philip Rivers. But assuming they don't make the playoffs, you would think you'd be safe. But I've talked to people, and they basically view that as new ownership.

Like, yeah, it's Jim Mersey's daughter, but she's going to want her own people in there and put an imprint on the organization. On top of that, Chris Ballard's been there for a decade. and this was always a win or else year. And even if a really bad luck is one of the reasons, if not the biggest reason, they don't make the playoffs, that there still would be a real chance that if they go from 7 and 1 to 8 and 9,

she's not going to care about why and that she might be looking for a big fish or just to make a change. Do you think that would be the right move? I don't think it would be the right move. I agree with you that I've spoken to people on the cult side, on the coaching side, and there's real fit that they think this is it, and it's a wrap.

Really? you just don't normally expect from guys who were in the hunt for coach of the year where they all get little, you know, statues from the head coach for saying we all did a great job. That's where they thought this was ending up by the time they got to the Christmas party. That is not how it's feeling there right now. And it's a real shame because how could you have done any better than they did to open the season? Putting up historic stuff on offense, which is his main task. And I get what you're saying about the new ownership and I agree with that. I mean, making the trade did it for Source Garden is a classic new owner move. Let's go all

in. Let's not accept it. our quarterback's Daniel Jones, let's compromise the future for the now, because we believe we're a championship contender when we're probably not. So I think that that kind of erraticism is to be expected when you get a new owner, and so it wouldn't surprise me the slights if they decide to move on. Look, Carly Erse Gordon has impressed a lot of people with how she's operated. And if she was, you know, making a surprising decision, that would be in keeping with her father's legacy, certainly at the beginning of his career within Indianapolis, which was more of a disaster. And he's talked about how substance abuse affected that. And that's not what we're

talking about. We're talking about someone who, yeah, just might have her own ideas of how she wants the organization to be run. And it's ultimately up to her. The distinction here from the typical new owner syndrome, like when the Walton's brought the Broncos, and it's like, go and get us Russell Wilson. We're going to go trade draft picks for the famous head coach, rather than do like a coaching search of the young, cool candidates is she is a football lifer. She's been working the football department since she was like a teenager. That is a bit different when you've lived through it, being through so many different regimes anyway, that she will have a good sense of what looks like it's working well, what isn't.

I think it's pretty hard to pin the current situation on the regime that's there, unless you're just saying that we looked into Daniel Jones in a sense that was never sustainable. We're only in that situation because of Chris Ballard. and then it would be hard to me to say, well, I'm going to blame Shane Steichen also, but as always, it's hard to remove the coach, sorry, keep the coach and remove the GM. Yeah, maybe there's interpersonal dynamics you don't know about.

You don't know, like, who's friends with who inside the building, how all the relationships are. And so there could be more to it. But just from the outside looking in, even if I'm blah on Ballard over the years, right now they have a lot of pieces where continent, seems to make a lot of sense. And I include Anorumo in that.

I include a lot of that offensive line that Ballard built in that and that it makes sense with Stuyken. They got to figure out quarterback. But to me, it seems like holding Pat and giving this group one more year at least would be the way to go. The Ravens and Steelers, let's kind of blend them together. I do think that there's like a greater chance that one of these two head coaches are not back next year than probably conventional wisdom has it the more stuff that came out about

tomlin the more i thought maybe mike tomlin doesn't want to be there that that's that's basically was my read on it whether he was kind of doing the old parcels and sean payton playbook where they had a job and they had years left on their contract but they were clearly making it obvious to the rest of the NFL hey does anyone want to come get me that's just my read with without asking around about that when it comes to Tomlin. What do you think about the Steelers? Let's start there. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm a broken wreck on this. When the reason a guy keeps his job is that all I ever hear is how quickly someone else would hire him. It's no longer a defense of the job he has in the place he currently is. It is just every year like clockwork and we

had it this with a bit of a Lucy Goose report that we're going to get the Schefter update that our team is so willing to go and get Mike Tomlin and then he signs a contract extension. This year a little bit different with the, oh, there's an option, and so he's safer next year, but the option for the following year, that what, that makes me think he would be potentially available and would sign off on a trade to somewhere like the giant, somewhere he respects, somewhere he thinks he could turn the thing around pretty quickly and kind of immediately moving to just a better situation for the medium term that he's constructed himself where he currently is. And I wonder where the Steelers are at in this. It seems like they would rather just, well, let's just keep keeping him.

And even if there's shortcomings, they must see these reports out there. They're obviously more in tune with it than we are. And wonder if their coach has a wandering eye. And this is where, you know, how these seasons and mean everything, unfortunately. Like I think that's short-sighted to base it all on the last few games of the season when you have a track record of like what he is great at as a coach. And I think he could be someone that is better in another spot but just needs he needs a refresh. Maybe the Steelers need a refresh. They finish at Detroit, at Cleveland,

and then home for Baltimore. There's a pretty realistic scenario where they've clinched the division before even playing Baltimore if the Ravens can't pull off wins here. And so if the Steelers have a home playoff game, it's just hard for me to imagine that thing changing. If the Ravens don't make the playoffs, I think Harbaugh's out. That is just a total gut thought. It just just feels like time. I personally think he probably should be out if they don't make the playoffs. And in general, it just feels like time. Doesn't mean he doesn't have a million strengths as a head coach

and that he had a great run. But all runs have to end some time. And I would think about if I'm the owner there and the front office, do we want John Harbaugh being the head coach of Lamar Jackson his entire career? I kind of want to see something else. I just would. You're in the camp of Mike McDaniel, right? you just want to see Lamar with McDaniel?

I think, I mean, that would be fun. That's, I mean, you could suggest out of our other options, who else would be fun there? Like, would Kevin Stefansky be fun there? I do think that's an organization where maybe the head coach is, it's not like Pete Carroll in Seattle or anything. It's part of a larger operation. And you slide a head coach.

I mean, Brian Billock, to me, was not, like, leading that organization. And Harbaugh's been great at what he does, but sometimes it's the coordinators, and it's everything else. It's a whole system. So let's just plug someone else in the system. We're not taking Lamar out, so let's plug that spot differently.

I do imagine if they did it. It would be someone within the family. I imagine that's why Jesse Minta would have his eye lasered on. He could go and do that. I'm with you. I think it's time. I think in both organizations is a real sense of fatigue.

I think particularly the Steelers have run out of ideas, but with the Ravens too, it feels like they're out of ideas. And you could find a new voice that's within the family, which is pretty unusual for a team to get and a team that cares about that stuff. and so I just think if Jesse Minter's available and he's going to be a head coach for 15 years in the league

I'd want to be on that train early rather than hang around and go down the end of the cliff with Harbour here where we should be better than we are and we watch Jesse Minter wander off somewhere else and have a great career. Now it'd be really interesting if it was Minter head coach in the like kept Todd Monkin because to me I'm mostly thinking about

all right who's going to maximize Lamar Jackson where are you at with the Todd Monkin experience by the way? Not as impressive this year as in pre-Munkin. years. And I think about this with all coaches. I think people have a tendency to say they are good, they are bad. I think people have good seasons, bad seasons. People get tired. They run out of ideas. The cycle of the league can kind of ebb and flow in the way your philosophy kind of overlays with the meta trends of the league. Someone like Vance Joseph, I talk about all the time, I've been banging the drum for him to get a head job for like four seasons. I think it's going to cycle out

of him being as useful as he is right now. And then you're going to hire the tail end of the cycle where his defense was a real value add to have him running your team. And I feel like that with Monkin where they've run a little bit out of ideas, obviously compromised by the offensive line. Lamar's injury, he's not moved the same way. But it feels a little more stale compared to in the previous few seasons. I'm informed here too by when they did fire Brian Billick and people were surprised. That was a Super Bowl champion who wasn't, you know, the team wasn't a disaster. They had a down year, obviously. And I believed all the reports about how close John Harbaugh was to losing his job before Lamar Jackson.

essentially. He saved it. And John Harbaugh knew from the minute Lamar started playing like that, this is my guy. And he tried to support him and he supported him publicly. But you just feel like that this organization, I think they've seen it and it's just been diminishing returns. Now it feels like the time. Then again, they could win these games. They could win a couple playoff games and that would shut me up. I'd be a little surprise if that happened. I think it's tricky because for the Steelers, I don't see a, clear option that you would say we feel comfortable as if not an upgrade is pretty similar and they've not done a coaching search since when like the 20s like when it was the last

I did an actual coaching search for a candidate whereas with the Ravens there is that kind of perfect middle ground of guy who seems to be peeking at the right time is ready for their coaching gig he knows understands our language as you said we kind of plug a guy into the building rather than come and run and you know overhaul the whole building so I think the timing just makes sense for the Ravens get Lamar a new voice get a younger more exciting more innovative staff I think that would make sense for that I'd be very surprised if former Eagles, co-worker, Sean McDermott, or Andy Reid are not back with their team.

But I just thought I'd throw them out. There's a little red meat there. Just you never know. In Annie Reid's case, it would just be for him to make a decision that everyone that covers the team the most closely says it's just not happening. He signed an extension through 29. You just never know at his age if he would decide to step down. That's very unlikely.

McDermott's a little different. They're playing well right now. it's very easy to imagine them winning playoff games, maybe even making the Super Bowl and making this conversation moot. But in a different world where, let's say, they finish 12 and 5 or 11 and 6 and they lose in the first round.

What are your thoughts about the Bill's situation? I think I was more on the McDermott should leave train last off season where I thought you could maybe go and get one of the super innovative offensive coach and just paired up with Alan. Could you go and be the ben? If that job was available,

every coach in the land would be like. lining up to go take it. You could have brought Ben Johnson in. I think with the candidate pool this year, I'd be more inclined to just give it one more season. I think McDermott's actually done a very impressive coaching job on game days. The game plans have been a bit of a width over time. But I think that personnel is pretty poor and it's grossly overstated often because of McDermott and because of Josh Allen. And it's more of a talent evaluation issue than it is a game day coach issue. He may take the fall if they fall short in the playoffs. But I think he's coached pretty well himself on game days this year and deserves another shot.

I would lean pretty heavily towards keeping him. I guess it's the history of the league is that guys don't stay together this longer than win their first one. It's just that simple. And it's the same with Harbour and Lamar Jackson. You just don't see it where I coach quarterback combination go six, seven, eight years, and finally break through.

And so if you're looking at history of league now, Josh Allen is different. Maybe you could do it. Maybe it does break through this year. That would certainly be in my mind if I was running the team that a new voice could be impactful. Yeah, it's a good call in terms of like the QB conversation,

I mean the QB quarterback combination that it tends to happen earlier, but he's a tricky one, McDermott, because I'm trying to think of the perfect quarterback cop. Maybe it's Jared Goff, like, just in terms of where he is in the pecking order. Like, obviously there are coaches that are at a level, Sean McDermott's, I don't think ever going to get to

in terms of being a complete difference-making head coach. But, like, go find a better quarterback than Jared Goff. It's not going to be that easy for you to do so. I don't know if, like, McDermott's that high. And coaches, I think, are ultimately a little easier to find than quarterbacks. But there's a big risk if you decide to move on that it could certainly go worse. On the read thing quickly is that I find that fascinating. This is a dynasty unlike any other where they've experienced no brain dream.

The only guy to leave is Eric B. Enemy. And that was partly a mutual decision, right, to go and, chase the next rung of the job ladder, we've not had before where they have had, in combination, the greatest offensive designer of his lifetime, the greatest defensive coordinator of his generation, the best offensive line coach of his generation, and maybe the best special teams coach of his generation, all together at once, all the way through, they look so out of ideas this season. And I feel like if Reid doesn't go, I'll be very much open to, and I would hope someone like Patchman would go and say, we need new young, fresh faces. Usually that self-manages

itself because everyone leaves. Everyone left Saban. Everyone left Belichick. You've got to go find new people. They've almost put themselves into this bucket where it's the same guys all the time, the same voices. So if Reid doesn't go, I do think they've got to say, Matt Nagy, you're out, someone else that is kind of shocking, you're out. Maybe Steve Spagnola takes a new job, but particularly on offense, I think they desperately need new young voices. It's a great and weird point about their continuity, which has been such a strength for them and, like, they're not going to change their offensive line coach. But I think you're right that some new fresh voices would be great.

And you think about all the other teams that have been less successful. The Rams certainly, basically anyone in that coaching tree. But the Ravens, too. Like, the Ravens have been cycling through coordinators forever, especially on defense because they get better jobs, and that just hasn't happened. All right, Spagnola is one of the retreads. Let's go through it.

You helped divide the list up of potential candidates into different categories. So we'll start with the retreads and I'll throw Jim Schwartz in there too, although to me he'd be a long shot, I guess, to get another head coaching job. Spags would be interesting. I do think there could be an appetite for him getting some interviews and the Giants specifically would be an interesting fit for him. I've listened to Chris Long on his podcast in the past saying like, man, it wasn't Spaggs's fault in St. Louis. No one was going to win in that situation. Like we feel bad that like Spaggs is such a good coach that we let him down. And there is a possibility. he could be better the second time around. But we have McCarthy, Robert Sala, I think, could be a guy who gets interest. Brian Flores, if organizations can look past the lawsuit between Flores and the league. Vance Joseph, you already touched on Belichick, I guess we could throw in there, Stefansky. Like a lot of names. Who kind of stands out?

Who do you want to start with there? The one that stands out to me, I don't know if you've read him off there, is Mike McCarthy. I think there's not a huge distinction between the resumes of Mike McCarthy and Sean Payton and yet Sean Payton was heralded because he's friends with everyone in the media as being like the guy you've got to go trade draft picks for Mike McCarthy's just available. Now the third go round coach

is a slightly different than the second go round coach and I do accept that but putting him in a place like Tennessee where it's just a complete disaster behind the scenes there is not a level of accountability a level of competence I think him being a kind of bridge guy for a young quarterback would make a lot of sense whether it's there whether it's the Giants somewhere like that where it's like, let's just stabilize, be normal, be ordinary for two seasons.

And then when we want to go and shoot for the moon, we can thank Mike for laying the foundations and go find someone else. Not too different from really what happened in Dallas, although they did win a lot of games. Yeah. Third time around, I'm a little surprise. I appreciate what you're saying. I feel like Avali is actually running a team. He gives McCarthy an interview.

He leaks it out to the media that he's one of the three finalists because he feels bad for him or likes him. Like, he does genuinely like him, but he doesn't hire him. Oh, no, no, no. I would not do that. That's true. It's tough because the kind of general picture of the candidates list is the retreads and the guys who have the most cachet them. First of all, I hate the way we hire head coach, which is which coordinator was good last year. It just makes no sense why guys fail all the time.

Do they have the right schools and stuff to run a building? It's how I would interview the guys, more than just which coordinator did well. But the offensive guys, the way it gets tricky. Everyone wants one of these offensive gurus, one of these offensive minds. they're all looking for Ben Johnson and Liam Cohen. It's just pretty dry. If it's not Cliff Kingsbury, it's guys who are 20, like Grant Udinski or Declan Doyle,

or guys who've been in the league two or three seasons because they're in college. So it's tough to find people who fit, which is where you're just kind of a light, I think. If you're just going through offensive pecking order and you're not in the Kingsbury world, that's just not your vibe trying to reestablish a building. That's when I think you hit on Mike McCarthy's like default saying

this isn't the best cycle. We had to move on from Brian Callahan. Let's give it to Mike for a couple of seasons. I could see it. Between those other guys, a Spaggs, second time around, Flores, second time around Sala, the defensive guys. Vance Joseph, who would you like the most? I always want to go for Vance, I'll save Vance so it's out there publicly because I really want him to get a crack of doing it again. The guy I would hire if my owner approved interviewing the guy that's suing him currently would probably be Flores.

I think he's got the best roller decks to build the staff around him. I do worry about putting him back in charge of a whole facility and what that may do and what it was like in Miami. Everyone says he's calmed down. It's not as bad as it used to be. When the pressure gets mounting and it's stressful and you're not sleeping and you're in charge to travel again, might be different.

But I think he would be one of the defensive guys who could find the stream of young offensive minds who keep getting picked off the staff every season. You've got to keep refreshing that the way someone like McDermas had to do. I think flores of those guys would be the guy take the punter. And the reality is, other than if the Ravens job opens up,

it's not like there's these ready-made jobs where you have a strong front office and an ownership situation. Every one of these jobs is going to have different challenges. I guess Austin Fort is probably going to be in place in Arizona. But even that, you just look at the history there. He'd be the most fun to watch. The highest floor is Robert Seller. I think Robert Sala will always get you in his second go-around to seven wins.

And that's the floor. Is he the guy who can put you over the top? There's been so much brain drain from the people he's worked with. I did not love, even though he's doing a very good job this season with the tools available, not taking the air off if I was going to hire him and not going and getting outside of his comfort zone, going back to the 90s. So I think he's an outstanding coach, excellent defensive guy. Could be the spags of his generation, just be the guy everyone wants to hire as the defensive coach.

I'd have loved him to do a year out and go and survey all the college campuses and go and find all the cool new ideas bringing him in and it just becomes a facsimile of that Jets job again and he brings a LaFleur back with him whichever LaFleur brothers rolling around I wouldn't be interested in that.

Jeffrey and Lefleur and there's not that many LaFleur brothers Mike LaFleur NFL Daily guest at training camp back in August all right the defensive guys than the young guys. Minter to me seems like

the top guy and we'll get a lot of interviews in this spike, in this cycle. Other possibilities, Chris Shulow will probably get attention from Los Angeles. Like, he's a younger coach that hasn't had a lot of, like, experience, like, in front of the podium. And, like, there will be questions of, like, okay, how can he lead an entire organization? That's fair for most of these first time coaches. Anthony Weaver could get looks. He's the defensive coordinator with Miami.

Jeff Halfley, the defensive coordinator for the Packers. your beloved Lou and Arumo with the Colts right now and then Anthony Campanile I think that's probably a year or two ahead from him really getting attention but has done a good job with the Jaguars why do you think it sounds like

Minter would be an interesting pick yeah I think he's a superstar I think he's one of the special ones hiding out there it's the perfect age perfect ideas perfect pipeline of coaches whether it's any of the guys that are left at Michigan or the people he could pick off the charges staff. And this has an unbelievable feel already for what a good program should look and

sound like. There's really cool things around the facility that is not traditional NFL stuff that I know he's implemented with the charges that I think you could take into an organization and would improve them massively. I actually don't think he's the kind of schematic guru in the way he's billed as like Mike McDonald. It's a lot more basic than the stuff Seattle do. But whenever I've watched him talk and speak and work at coaching clinics and things like that, It just jumps off the screen, that he operates at a different level. And the organization and the principles, I just think look, smell, sound like a guy who's got the goods. I think Anthony Weaver has a little bit of that where if he's in the room, I think he'll impress ownership.

And that he does make sense as a guy who's done a good job schematically there in Miami. They're not amazing. But he certainly has done a solid job. But a guy that you could see kind of leading an organization. Yeah, I thought that last cycle. I thought he'd be the sneaky higher. I thought the Jets would look in that direction that he would blow people away once he got in the room.

I think this one is tough and cramped because you've got Minter and Shuler and then you maybe have the retreads. If Salah gets one, you start running out of jobs where you become the guy who impressed the interview. We didn't mention, by the way, during the jobs, the Miami Dolphins. If there's a Shuler available

and the Dolphins job is available, then all of a sudden you start looking at that one. Though I do think the, I do think that Stephen Ross would go big game hunting if they decide to do that. But you're so in on just McDaniel staying, I guess. No, I'm an idiot. This is why I need an editor.

Give me a break. How did we go through the whole episode? How did no one see this? I went through all the teams. I must have just been so sick of talking about the dolphin situation all week. Oh, I think he's gone. I think there's been a lot of, you know, talk that they would like to keep him. and I think it depends on who you're talking to there necessarily.

And it just doesn't make logical sense that they're going to essentially require the next GM to keep Mike McDaniel. It's possible and it's not the craziest idea ever. Like he has strengths as a head coach, but he would be on my leaning gone list. So I'm glad you fix that hole. Thank you.

I would go with leaning gone with him too. I understand the reasons why you would consider it. You say, we think we've got a guy who is a false multiplier as an offensive designer. What if he had a real pro quarterback? But that seems, sounds pretty good. Sounds better than some of the options out there. And if our options are it's Stefansky, it's Grant Udinski, a 28-year-old running our building, or it's Mike McDaniel.

I could see how you could talk yourself into that. Just the way Stephen Ross is, I assume he will go chasing a big name on the market. Okay, so the big names, there aren't many that are offensive guys right now. Cliff Kingsbury, you mentioned. Udinski is one of the youngest, maybe the youngest coordinator in the league for Jacksonville. I do think Liam Cohen, people are going to just want to get a piece of what Liam Cohen has been doing after really a skyrocket in terms of his status within the league

the last couple of years. Declan Doyle, you mentioned who's with the Bears right now. But it's guys I have a hard time imagining get serious. looks, Clayton Adams, maybe with Dallas, who's helped to design their running game. Mike Kafka, I think, has a chance for New York to keep the Giants job, but it just hasn't gone well as an interim, so that's not going to help him. Among those offensive guys, who catches your eye? It's pretty tough. I love Clayton Adams. I have a hard time seeing him stepping up to the top podium at this stage. And that's where it's just tight. I would be, if you're taking

the swing for the fence, if you're the titan, you're saying, we stink, but we think we've the quarterback, let's just go and take a punt on having Sean McVeigh. That's where I would look at doing the Udinsky. Now, I don't love the idea of a 29-year-old running the whole team. That would be concerning. But of the guys you see and look and go, he seems different to all the other guys who come through as they stood near McVe, those type of coaches, whether it's a floor, whoever it is. He does feel a little bit different. So if you're taking a swing, that's the guy, take the swing on. I mean, the thing about the whole day, stood near LaFlea like McVeigh hires is they've mostly worked I mean the hit rate's been way higher

than a normal head coaching that that's where I think Nate Nate Schillhaus with the Rams has a chance he's only been in the league two years which again you wouldn't want necessarily running the whole thing but if you're looking for the guy who stood near him at Shula gets a lot of the attention for that but if you're leading well we really want the offensive stuff that Sean does that's kind of why we're interviewing you he's older he's a bit more experienced so I could see him being a real outside hire The other one would be Davis Webb, who I think if you're going again, the young got to take a swing route. We're not interested in Mike McCarthy and retread offensive mine. Cliff Kingsbury is not our style of just dude around the office.

I think Davis Webb probably has a little bit more experience, being in multiple buildings, I think we'll come across really well in the interview. So I could see him being a kind of an outside hire. But once you get past those guys, you're into the Clint Kubiak, which just isn't for me. You're into Tob Munkin, which feels like maybe you're doing it 10 years too late. as a head coach in the league, that would have to be a, we're making him the head coach of the Ravens because Lamar wants him situation to me or he's going with Josh Allen, the bill's like a premier quarterback and he can just kind of add onto the top there

rather than turning a team around. And you mentioned Davis Webb, just for the listeners, he is, I wanted to get his title right for the Broncos, the offensive past game coordinator and the quarterbacks coach. I knew he was the quarterback's coach there and had some other title where they had now like split coordinator type. titles like among three people. He also authored like that terrible tush, not tush push, but QB sneak, remember from like 99 yards away. Am I, am I crazy to remember that? That's a sad moment.

I mean, he's only 30 years old. I was like, that was only a couple years ago that Davis Webb was making sad starts for the Giants. So. But this is the thing when we're talking about the other jobs they come open, everyone wants to get rid of their coach. I get it. You think they're a bozo. So if you want to get rid of the coach because you want to go chase the next offensive mind, you really are tapping out pretty quickly unless you want to take a swing on a guy who's been in the league two or three years or a guy who's just incredibly young,

even though he's coach's entire life. Those are pretty big risks to take. If you're going to have players who are significantly older than your head coach stood in front of the room. Yeah, there are not a lot of obvious offensive options. Even among the retreads, they're mostly defensive coaches. I guess I can't have Ali on without. you know, asking if Justina's reporting, you know, she had more on Thursday morning that there's

multiple high up people with a couple organizations who are at least sort of considering maybe giving Bill Belichick a call. I can't imagine, well, I definitely can't imagine he gets a job, but do you even think he gets a real deal interview in this cycle? Real deal interview, I'm not sure. A phone call, I think yes. And I think that's the Falcons. and I think that probably already took place to gauge interest. I think that door A, door B thing for Arthur Blank is like a real thing. He doesn't know why you went down one after the fact.

So I think the calls will take place. I cannot see it happening. That just would be sad times for the Falcons to hire. Bill Belichick 10 years after 28 to 3. It just very Falcons. That was great. We will be obviously tracking all the coaching news. throughout the next couple of weeks on NFL Daily.

Ali, I won't talk to you on the show before Christmas. So have a great Christmas. And for everyone listening, we obviously have many more shows before Christmas. We will be back on Sunday night to, yes, recap those big time Saturday games, including that Bears Packers. I cannot wait for that. And then, yes, Jags, Broncos to me is just fascinating on Sunday, along with Ravens Patriots.

We will see you there in the Chris Wesleying podcast studio, recapping it off. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team-building philosophies,

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