NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - The Bengals' Superstars Deserve Better and Offensive Rookie of the Year Ladder

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Nick Shook to recap the Bengals and Cowboys facing off on Monday Night Football. The show starts with a discussion about the elite level that Joe Burrow and Ja'Marr Chase have been playing at (01:08), followed by a look at the state of the Bengals (06:18), and Micah Parsons' play (14:14). After the break, you get caught up on news from around the NFL including drama in the Eagles locker room (21:14), a spicy quote from Garrett Wilson (26:45), injury updates on Derek Carr and Jonathan Brooks (24:45), and more. The show is wrapped up with Gregg and Nick's Offensive Rookie of the Year ladders (32:48) and their players of the week (51:20). Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

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Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Burrow ready for the shotgun snap. Joe has the football. He'll look to throw. Fires a pass.

Caught by Jemot Jemot Jaze. Down the sideline. 20, 15, 10. Touchdown. Bengals, 101 to go. A 40-yard strike to Jemar Chase. Oh, the Bengals finally got one late. 27 to 20.

That was our friends, Dan Horde and Dave Lapham on WCKY. I'm Greg Rosenthal here on NFL Daily, and I've seen the Bengals blow so many games in so many big spots, including in prime time this season, that it was nice for once to see their two great players. Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase hookup for a game winner. Jamar Chase ends up with 14 catches for 177 yards and two touchdowns. And I don't know, Nick, if it means anything in the big picture.

But the Bengals seemed extremely relieved to get their fifth win of the season in a weird game in Dallas. At least it was entertaining. Yeah, entertaining. Joe Burrow captured it best, I think, when talking with ESPN's Lisa Salters after the game, which was, we needed a break. We haven't gotten many of those this season, and they haven't. And for a long period there, I thought they weren't going to until the Cowboys screwed up a blocked punt situation that gave the Bengals second life.

And it reminded me of the one constant theme that's on the positive side for the Bengals this season, which is death, taxes, and Joe Burrow to Jamar Chase for a big play. He makes that catch. he scores that touchdown. And finally, even if it doesn't mean much in the big picture, because they're now five and eight, it at least prevents the Bengals from securing a losing season for at least one more week. Hey, they're not eliminated yet.

Neither's Dallas, for that matter, although both of them can be eliminated next week. And when that's even possible in week 15, it means you're probably not going to stave off elimination for long. Let's just give Jamar Chase some love for a second. And Joe Burr. Jamar Chase has 625 yards after the catch that it's most in the NFL. According to next-gen stats, he caught nine of the 11 targets tonight that he had on outbreaking routes for 122 yards and two touchdowns.

That is the most of anyone in the game all season. That is absolutely outrageous. And it points to something I was thinking throughout this game, which is that Joe Burrow and Jemar Chase make those opposite hash. out routes look easier than any two people in the NFL. That should not be an easy play. And Joe Burrow makes it look so easy. And he only does it in part because Chase is so good

and is exactly where he's supposed to be and gets so open on those plays. And tonight, even though we saw a lot of the reasons why the Bengals are five and eight and we can get to those reasons, like we can just appreciate a little bit of greatness on our Monday night football. Especially what on the other side, it's like Cooper Rush is involved.

Yeah, I mean, that's not very intriguing. But you said it's the most in a game this season. It's the most in a game in seven seasons. An Outbreaking route is not a route that usually produces a massive gain. It's a throw that you make to move the chains. It's a throw that you make because the coverage dictates you to go there and hopefully you're going to make it happen. They make it look elementary.

And they have throughout their career and speaks back to their time together at LSU and the rapport that they built in college and how they've cared at the NFL. And I might be talking about old news. at this point, but their relationship and why it's so vital to this Bengals, you know, existence now and their future can be captured in one moment. And it's right after the game. They hand Joe Burrow a box of donuts because it's Simpson's night on the alternative broadcast. And he takes a donut. And instead of eating it, he grabs it, he looks at it. He looks up at Jamar Chase and he smashes it in his face because they love each other. And that is

expressed on the football field with their great success. It is a tandem that I feel like we haven't seen produce at this rate in a long time. And it really bums me out that they're not a better and more complete team because they should be in the playoffs because this is them alone are fun to watch. I want to wear my biases on my sleeve. When Joe Burrow and the Bengals were punting with, what was it, a minute in 53 left or something like that after having a fourth and 26 because multiple just boneheaded penalties from their teammates was forcing them to kick the ball back to the Cowboys. I was thinking, I can't freaking believe they are going to lose this game again.

And as great as Joe Burrow is, and he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league, this game had so many elements of why this team is where they were. They were great in the first half. They come out of halftime. Burrow did have a curious interception. His receiver gets bumped off. He's anticipating it. That's in the third quarter.

They have a field goal drive where they settle after like a ball hits Jamar Chase in the helmet and in Burrow can't find T. Higgins, you know, connect on a one-on-one in the end zone. So they settle for a field goal. And then they punt a couple times in the fourth quarter, including that punt. And I'm thinking, this is a travesty that this team is losing to the Cowboys, that they are wasting this quarterback and this receiver and T. Higgins together. And it should be a five alarm fire in Cincinnati what's happening. And I don't believe Zach Taylor is the right quarter, the coach for them. I really don't. And I thought, you know what?

I don't want them to lose in a way. But maybe they need to like get even worse to really get the ownership's attention. Because to me, Zach Taylor feels like a good enough coach that is getting propped up by two first ballot hall of famed talents. And you shouldn't just be accepting good enough right here smack in the middle of the prime. It should be a five alarm fire. But once again, like, they get saved by the Cowboys ineptitude. And then they get saved by Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase's brilliance on that last touchdown. And maybe it's not the national conversation. But maybe it should be, Nick. What do you think? No, I actually had that same thought right when the Cowboys scored that

touchdown pass to Brandon Cooks. That was the first time it occurred to me that like, wait, this Bengals team is nowhere near what they should be. Like I'm watching replays of Rico Dowdle ripping off big gains on the ground. And I'm just thinking, God, this is such a disappointment. This is a team that should have been so much better. I thought back to our preseason predictions and how I raved about the Bengals. And if everything goes right, they have a solid roster and everything else. And it just hasn't worked out for them.

And then I thought, maybe Zach Taylor actually is at risk of losing his job. Maybe he isn't the right guy. So I think you're totally right in at least considering that because how else do you explain? You can't explain away this entire season, but our defense was bad. an operational failure on the part of the front office and the coaching staff. And this is a team that also has a highly regarded defensive coordinator, Lou Anirumo, who's just been grasping at straws trying to find answers. So I think you're absolutely right.

And yet, I tweeted it in the fourth quarter. It's really fun. It's kind of satisfying in a way to watch losing teams find new ways to lose. And that's the only thing that saved them in this game was the fact that the Cowboys out ineptitude them. If that's not even a word, but I just made it up. Even the final drive, Cooper Rush on the fourth down, I mean, he has an open receiver and he's facing a little bit of pressure, but he just misses throws. And he doesn't make bad decisions, but he just misses too many throws for a guy who isn't physically talented.

And you see it week after week. Like he is a below average backup, I would say. Not the worst backups in the league, but not an asset. They need to be looking to upgrade there. But I really believe that with Taylor. and it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like he's held to the same standard as other places.

If Ben Rathesberger in the middle of his career just went five in 11 or six and 10 one year with Bill Cower, Mike Tomlin. Like, not that he had Bill Cowher, but with McTammer. Like, you think Tomlin wouldn't have been on the hot seat? Like, if Sean McDurham

It was five and eight this year, he would be fired. Like, we would just assume it because you have this infrastructure that you've been building. You have these guys at their prime. And yeah, like, the margin for error is small. And he just, maybe it's watching that in-season hard knocks. It just feels like. I know where you're going. No, I don't.

You're not inspired by him. You're not inspired by him. I don't know where I'm going. He's fine. Like, he's a fine coach. He's like the Kirk Cousins. of coaches. He's above the Dalton scale.

He's above average. He's going to make a lot of money. But you've had a franchise for how long, whatever, 40, 50 years. This is easily the best quarterback you ever have. Might be the best quarterback you ever will have. And he's alongside Jamar Chase. And you mentioned all the reasons, who's maybe the best receiver you've ever had. And they have this connection.

And you have T. Higgins there, too. And it's, it's just like, why don't you try to be as great as those players are trying to be? Yeah. And I think for a long time, the excuse is personnel. Well, we're not good enough. We don't have the quarterback. Well, then they got the quarterback. And I think the things that are saving them is a lower standard of expectation because let's think back to the Carson Palmer, Chad Johnson slash Ocho Cinco, T.J. Huizman Zada teams that were good enough and then were good enough and then were good enough and then were good enough. And then you also think about the time that they made the Super Bowl a few years ago. And like, that has won him enough good with. for that to not be mentioned in the conversation. It's also a weird period right now where he's not the only coach who is safer than he probably should be. Just go up up north in the same state.

Kevin Stefanski's in a similar spot with the Browns where they're not good, but he's safe. He's shown me more, though. But he hasn't gotten to a Super Bowl and Zach Taylor has. So, like, that's their argument. I get it.

I get it too. I totally get it. I did check Zach Taylor's contract extension, how long it lasted during this game. And I think it's through 26, so there's two more years on it. We're just talking here. I don't think it's that realistic, but I just think Joe Burrow is that special, and you just

can't assume that, like, this is going to last forever. You've had all those, you know, before there's been excuses, there's injury plagued years, there's different ways that the season ended. This year, they've been more than healthy enough. Burroughs been healthy, and that's the key. Let's circle back to that moment, though, where they were bailed out. a little bit by the Cowboys. So to just set it up again, like I said,

that the Bengals had punted twice in a row in a tie game there, a close game in the fourth quarter. And I was thinking, man, like as great as Burroughs been, there's been too many of these spots where they give the ball to the other team. If Cooper Rush does it, that's where I was starting to lose my mind. But the Cowboys saved them in only the way

the Cowboys can. Let's listen. RICO punting for the third time. He's averaged 53 and a half yards per punt. the snap is good here comes the punt and it's blocked can you believe it it's rolling forward

the cowboys may have touched it if that's the case the Bengals would get the ball they got it they do a colossal mistake by the Dallas cowboys they just needed to get out of the way after blocking that punt one of their players touched it and the Bengals recovered

a colossal blunder by Dallas oh man great call there Dave Lapham and Dan Horde. Yeah, they blocked the punt. The game was just about over. All they got to do, the Cowboys, is not touch that ball, and they're going to have the ball on the plus side of the field. They've been moving the ball fairly well tonight, by the way,

like everyone does against the Bengals. I mean, they put up 20 points. They got 32 yards. They actually average five and a half yards per play, which is an amazing, but it's pretty good for the Cowboys with Cooper Rush. And I would have given them a strong chance of getting them in field goal, for Brandon Aubrey, they basically already were, but I believe it was O'Waree who hit it

and you feel for him and you give Joe Burrow one more chance and this time they capitalized. Yeah, I don't like to revel in anybody's misfortune because I think karma comes around for all of us and I'm not trying to get caught like that, but I will say for as tough of a season as has been for the Bengals, it warmed my heart to hear Dan Hoard be able to make that call

because he was basically just absolutely despondent when he realized that they had the punt blocked. And then instantly he's like, wait, they have the ball back, they have new life. And then he's able to call the touchdown. Like, Dan's one of my favorite guys in this business. He's an amazing individual. So, and a tough season for him to get that moment, that was great. And for the Bengals to be able to come away with a win, that was great.

Even if it was weird, even if it was kind of gifted to them, they still took advantage. I, if there's any Bengals fans here listening and wondering, like, why are you going so negative when you're talking about Zach Taylor? First of all, I know our friend Spicerack is not thinking that because he's won of Zach. He thought Zach Taylor is getting propped up by these guys for very long. It's more, that's more important to me, big picture. We're not going to take this time to talk about the Bengals in this sort of way the rest of the season. And them winning this game, sure, it's nice. Their fans should enjoy it.

But the bigger picture is kind of where is this team going? They have a lot of questions on their defense. I was thinking, how can a team with Trey Hendrickson have this bad a pass rush? Like, it makes no sense. Hedrickson had four quick pressures tonight, seven pressures overall. The rest of the team actually did have a decent amount of pressures. They weren't terrible in this game. But there were just plays where, because Hedrickson's double-teamed, where there's just nothing.

And so I know they had a decent amount of pressures. Their pressure rate was okay tonight. But the plays where they didn't have pressure, it was like Cooper Rush just, there's no one anywhere near them. And that's why they were able to move the ball. Michael Parsons, on the other hand, we got to give him some love before. we give him a little bit of grief. My God, is he an amazing player?

He had nine pressures in this game. Six quick pressures, which is under two and a half seconds, which is up there for the best performances of the season in terms of quick pressure. So he is getting it done week after week, and that's why you don't hold it too much against him when he makes a big spectacle of himself after that block punt that Nick, I'm sure you saw it on the telecast,

and if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it now. And he is just going absolutely through it on the sidelines, just not knowing what happened, so mad, and then at the end of the game, he stomps off the field. And I was watching this game,

actually, with my son and his friend, James, who's a great athlete, and my son Walker's like, oh, that's kind of like you at the end of games. You're a poor sport, too. I was like, it's kind of true.

Like, he is showing up his teammates a little bit. It's a little bit like, hey, look at me. I care more than you. But I do think, It comes from a genuine place. He was in tears after the game, too, talking about DeMarvie on Overshon's knee injury.

I think he really does care that much. It makes him good. But ultimately, it's also kind of showing up your own teammates a little bit. Maybe am I being like an old Fuddy-Duddy. What do you think? I mean, first off, I would never use Fuddy-Duddy to describe anybody, including you. So we'll take that away right now. Strike that from the record.

No, I understand. I do understand his disappointment and his frustration because he is one of the game's best rushers. He's a great player, and he's stuck on a defense that basically only had maybe two other contributors on the field, one of them being overshone, and he leaves an injury. And it's like, it already got bad. The season itself is bad, and now it's just getting worse because we can't even execute this.

We make a great play on special teams. We block a punt that we were able to block because the defense got to stop late in a tie game, and then you go and blow it like that. I understand. I totally understand why you'd be upset, but as a teammate, you kind of have to control your emotions to a degree because it is kind of showing them up at the end of the day. Yeah, I thought they were game, you know, Eric Kendrick's flying around. It's just disappointing because Oversone possibly has a serious injury just based on

Michael Parsons' reaction, how it looked in the moment. There's no word on it, but for Parsons to be that emotional and say Overshone doesn't deserve this and he's battled through injuries, you have to fear the worst and we'll we'll probably have an update on that on our next show. Cooper Beebe, their, their rookie center also got injured in this game. Before we throw it to break, like just little things. Like, why did it take the Cowboys so long to know that Rico Daudal was their running back? Like, this is, this is one of the reasons why I can't trust you, Cowboys. Like, Rico Dado's been great the last month. And you were splitting carries between him and Lipke and Deuce Vaughn and Zechio Elliott for

the rest of the season. And now when you actually give the ball, the guy kind of everyone was like, isn't that just our best guy? He's reliable. He's solid. You do that to him for a month and he's great. Yeah, he's, he's reset his career high for a single season. So single game high in two games straight. He went over 100 yards last week. He goes even higher than that this week. Like it's he finishes with 131 yards on 18 attempts averaging 7.3 yards per carry. And I know it's the Bengals defense. So it's a perfect time to have a career best game. Zeke wouldn't be doing that. He wouldn't. He wouldn't. He hits the hole with burst. He's a fast guy. And yeah, I agree. I don't know. It points to the cowboy season in a nutshell. They're just making dumb decisions. It started in the offseason with their personnel moves or lack thereof. And it just continued through the season. And now when their backs are all, but they're against the wall, they're basically done. They now find a way, oh, let's give it to him enough times for him to make a difference. Yeah. We've probably spent too much time on this. Before we go, I mentioned how special it was to have Chase and Burrow to. together in Higgins as well.

And the reason I'm not including Higgins as much as, I'm just assuming Higgins is going to be gone because that's what the Bengals do. They sometimes let great players leave and it's assumed that Chase is going to be the only one that gets his money. Joe Burrow, after the game, had some interesting quotes about that.

You know, those discussions are ongoing and unconfident that I think we're going to be able to do what it takes to bring T back and, you know, I know that I'm going to do what it takes to get him back, and so is he. We've had those talks, so. I watched T. Higgins get asked about it, and they were gentle, kind of how they were framing it, not almost trying to not get too into his business. And he kind of said, okay, you know, I never ruled out coming back here. And kind of like, that's always been the hope.

and a little bit of like, I'll believe it when I see it. But those comments make me think there's a bigger chance than we thought that Joe Burroughs maybe willing to push some money into the future or whatever that's going to be. Or it's Joe Burrow putting a little more public pressure on his ownership to get something done. Either way, good job Joe Burrow. Yeah, if I played the lottery with this type of confidence,

I would be putting pressure on the lottery board to grease the skids for me. give you the numbers like yeah okay i don't know the bengals the way they operate as a franchise like we've known that they're not a team that spends a ton of money um legacy ownership essentially like there's a number of reasons why and he it's hard i will i will make the point that bengals fans are probably screaming right now this is one of the most expensive teams in the NFL it's one of the reasons why they're so disappointing but that's also one of the reasons why they probably won't pay him their their defense is expensive like they're they've been spending some cash and they got to pay you know obviously they had to pay joe borough and they

got to pay Chase and just the math makes it it difficult. Jamar Chase, by the way, going for the triple crown. And so he's going to be the highest paid receiver in the league when he signs that next contract. He has six more receptions than anyone in the NFL, 149 more yards than anyone in the NFL, and six more touchdowns receiving than anyone in the NFL. He has a great chance to do what Cooper Cup did just a few years ago and get that triple crown, which is, which is pretty special. That and the run after catchability is really what stood out for me the most this year.

This is a guy who will catch a pass over the middle for 10 or 12 yards and is a threat to take it 60 yards to the house every time. He's special in that area, among many others. If you take just his best four games of the season, he has 750 yards and eight touchdowns. Four games.

Yeah. Outrageous. All right, let's take a quick break. We are going to talk a little news. We're going to do our offensive rookie of the year ladder and we're going to give out our players of the week. right after this. Hey, this is Matt Jones.

I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining.

And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team-building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else.

It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a die-hard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture. If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant.

And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily, we highlighted some A.J. Brown comments on the recap So, shook. I thought they were notable. I thought they were from a player that wanted to do more to help his team and was frustrated

with the passing game, and it was all understandable. On Monday, it remains understandable, but it remained, and now it is a little bit more interesting of a story because of what one of the teammates of both A.J. Brown and J. and Hertz said about it. This is courtesy of the 94 WIP morning show with the camera and Richie. It's Brandon Graham on his regular spot on that show, courtesy of Odyssey. I know that one is trying. And I mean, 11 could be a little better with how he respond to things. And they were friends before this. It's like, man, but things have changed. And I understand that because life happens. But we got to, it's the business side that we have to

make sure that we don't let the personal get in the way of the business, and that's where we got to do better as right now, because we know it's the issue. Everybody's seeing some things, but we need to be able to talk things out as men, you know what I'm saying? But we need to let personal stuff go, and let's get right for this game because, man, it's like a lot of stuff most of the time, it's just a conversation that just need to be had, but the person with the problem got to want to talk to the person other than others. it's a lot of talking around the matter without like getting into specifics but also alluding to some internal strife and conflict between receiver and quarterback look he got right into

it my read on that is brandon graham i feel for him because he's going to realize he opened up a can here was almost assuming that the public understood a little bit more of the subtext and what's going on in A.J. Brown's statements, then we actually did. And when he, when he mentions that they, you know, they have a friendship and you can't let the personal get in the way, oh, well, that, that's interesting. And after him saying that, you just start thinking about it. And there is frustration, I think, just on a football level that is understandable, just from watching the film from A.J. Brown specifically, and I would put DeVantz Smith in this as well, of Jalen Hertz, just not throwing the ball when it's there. That's it. Like, that he's open

enough and he's looking at him and he's just not throwing it. So I'm taking away all the personal stuff that he kind of opened up that adds a different window into this. But knowing that, you could see where some frustrations, if you have some frustrations on the personal side, and then the football side that I do think a close football watcher can see, that creates some issues. And by the way, it makes people like me start thinking about how the way last season ended and all the weird stuff that we,

they never really quite talked about what the issues were going on. And they would talk around it. It's just like, oh, man, here we go again. Yeah, and there was the whole, like, does A.J. Brown won in a town or not issue as well, that they had to kind of clear up. Wins cover up for a lot. And let's, you know, let's not beat around the bush with the fact that this is an 11 and 2 team that has been on an absolute hair. Yeah, and they won Sunday. But the receiver is not getting the ball enough to make him happy. It's interesting. I thought the most interesting part was that they were friends. Like, they're not friends now. Like, that is concerning to me for a team that looks like it's on its way to winning the division and wants to make a playoff push. Like, what if that bubble? over in the worst possible time in the playoffs because, yeah, he's not getting a lot of attention.

Sequin Barclay is the star of the show right now, but at one point they're going to need you and they've needed you in stretches. And this is not encouraging for a team that record-wise should be very encouraged right now. Now, Brandon Graham, just as we were late as we're taping that there was an update to a Tim McManus at ASBN spoke with Graham who wanted to clarify some of the statements and said, I made a mistake. I assumed it was something that it wasn't. I just want to win so bad that I don't want to use the media when we need to talk about something

and we can fix the problem ourselves. Ironic. I didn't add to it in a good light. So that's my bad. Somebody in the PR department got a hold of Brandon Graham and said, clean this up now. Well, or AJ or Jalen just texted him and we're like, what the hell, man?

Because we don't know. It could be Brandon Graham's interpretation of this situation. What I would say just is the chemistry on the field between Hertz and his wide receivers could be more consistent, could be better. And this just added a whole stew for the Philadelphia media crew to dive into for the next week or a month or season, depending on how it goes. Or off season. Right.

Speaking of how wide receivers, you know, weren't happy after Sunday's game. This is a sound from Garrett Wilson after. losing to the dolphins. Losing period sucks. And, you know, when you're up in the fourth quarter, all of a sudden it starts to feel like you have a losing problem. It's like you have like a gene or some shit. So it's not like we're just going out there and getting our buttbeat from start to finish.

You know, no, no, we have a chance to go win the game. We're supposed to win the game. Oz are in our favor and we're finding a way to lose the game. So it's just frustrating for sure. A losing gene is brutal, and I bring this quote up because there was an article about it from Zach Rosenblatt in The Athletic, which said previously there was some speculation among league source people inside the Jets that thought Wilson might want to ask out if things don't go well and things have certainly not go well. So teams were actually calling about Wilson at the trade

deadline wondering if he's going to be someone that would be available and just something to watch going into the offseason. I can't imagine the Jets would want to trade Garrett Wilson. If there's one part of their offense that they feel great about, it should be him. No, but my read on this, I don't think it's that uncommon actually, because think about the program that Garrett Wilson came from at Ohio State. The only loser gene in that entire program is their head coach Ryan Day against Michigan. Otherwise, all they do is win. All he knows is success. Yes, I know. I'm going to let my Ryan Dave Vendat out here. And he's going to get to the NFL to a team like the Jets who can't shed that.

Who haven't been able to shed that in years. I haven't been in the playoffs in years. And he plays hard. He risks it all. He finally thinks he's going to get the quarterback in Aaron Rogers. It's going to get him there. And they continue to lose. And even in a game in which they played well enough to win, they had offensive success.

In the fourth quarter, that pressure mounts, it's a thing that's part of your culture. It's like those losing teams that I think about the Browns, for example, year after year, you lose and lose and lose. And when it gets tight, you think, How are we going to blow it this time instead of let's go win the football game, which is kind of what he said. And ultimately, it plays out like that because that's the mentality you have. And it's so foreign to him.

I could totally understand his frustration. And I can understand if he wanted out, too. We'll see if he pushes that. But I just thought that was one thing to just kind of put in the NFL daily listeners' ears and, you know, think about it in a month. We'll see if it becomes a bigger story. It is crazy how many times Garrett Wilson has been open and Aaron Rogers has missed Aaron Rogers has not been consistent.

He has not always been accurate. His completion percentage over-expected is actually the worst in the NFL among starters other than Watson. And I'm forgetting, but he was third to last in it, basically among guys who had over 150. And I swear half of those are to Garrett Wilson. Like, it's always Garrett Wilson that he misses. So maybe that's partly what he's frustrated about. Let's fly through a bit of news and talk a little offensive rookie of the year. Derek Carr is going to be out multiple weeks, according to Ian Rappaport.

Likely, the season, the Saints are not announcing who will start. Jake Hainer came in briefly for Carr. So it could be Jake Hainer. It could be Spencer Rattler. With the agenda. Yeah. Well, my guess, it'll be both. They'll start with Hainer and they'll end with Rattler or vice versa.

Either way, it's not going to change our lives too much, except if you're assigned to a Saints game on Sundays. Jonathan Brooks tore his ACL again, the Panthers rookie running back, who was probably the number one prospect at the position coming into the draft until he tore his ACL at Texas. And man, what a disappointing turn of ends. You just hate to see this.

And you always worry with these rookies that have another quick injury, whether they rushed back, even if it's not a rookie. Like Jalen Phillips this year seemed like he rushed back and then immediately got hurt again with a different injury.

and it's really disappointing for a good runner. Yeah, it's a bummer because he had just gotten back and he had just started to show some flashes of, you know, and kind of proved why they took him and why he was regarded so highly before he had hurt his knee in his final season in college. And this is the type of stuff that does happen from time. It's super unfortunate because the one thing you don't want to do

is watch these things pile up. I think about Deontay Foreman when he came into the NFL. He kind of experienced a similar, you know, turn of events. He didn't come in injured, but he experienced injuries. And now he's bounced around the NFL and had a promising start to his career before he got hurt. I hope the same is not true for Brooks. And it's one of those negatives in what has been a really kind of fun month or so for the Panthers.

But you'll have those. No one's having more fun losing than the Panthers. There's still three in 10, but it's like it's so close every week. The one disappointing part of the Brooks injury on a bigger picture level for the Panthers is they actually haven't gotten a ton out of this rookie class. league at is solid I think he has potential you're not really sure which direction he's going to go

and they you know Jatavian Sanders their fourth round tight end looks like he might be a player I love him yeah he's solid but man when you're a team like that

you need to you need to really have some doubles and home runs in your draft class maybe this class will turn into that but disappointing for them the buck's got to bad injury news

Antoine Winfield is out again with multiple weeks not for the season but he's had an injury-plagued season. Part of the reason their secondary has not looked great. The Browns are sticking with James at least for another week. Kevin Siffancy confirmed. Aiden O'Connell, he might not be out yet.

We got the Raiders in primetime next week, and this Monday night double-header. We got Raiders Falcons as one of the two games. Vikings Bears is the other one. So we might be talking a little Aiden O'Connell next week, not Desmond Ritter. We'll see. And the Chiefs are checking on DJ Humphreys.

They're recently signed tackle, got hurt right away. He's getting an MRI, and the Packer's safety, Javon Bullard, is week-to-week. That is your quick update. I wanted to fly through that, Shook, because we got to talk offensive rookie of the year ladder. I think this one is fascinating. This might be the best offensive rookie class of my lifetime. I like to go through. Really?

I don't know, man. Immediately I'm thinking, like, who are the other good rookies on offense? 2012 when it was, you know, Luck, RG3, Russ, and Tannahill, you know, Tanahill was down the list, but pretty solid for a rookie quarterback. Like, and that's just the quarterbacks alone. I'm trying to think who else was part of that class. Like, let's talk, let's talk, 2000 and 24. I'm going to go through it.

You start out at five and then I'll go. Well, let's go back from five. Okay, so it's, I don't know if it's the best, like you said, but it's definitely intriguing and really it's because there's like two tiers to this and if we start at the bottom the second tier i could throw like three different guys in here in fact i have i think a total of six players that i've written up here okay and the receiver group specifically comparable numbers they're like really similar you have like the guys like i'm gonna say lad mcconkey and malik neighbors numbers wise very similar but the guy that i have in front of both of them is brian thomas

And I'm going to put him there fifth because he's playing in an offense that has had like no stability. Trevor Lawrence has gotten hurt a couple of times. And yet he's been able to make big plays, but he almost pops up out of nowhere. You forget he's there sometimes because they just have an issue with getting the ball down the field. But when he makes plays, man, it's special. 54 catches, 851 yards, six touchdowns. I would put him in fifth just because he's done a little bit better statistically. But like neighbors and McCocky both look different from him too.

Neighbors is a guy who've got fed a ton of targets early with Daniel Jones. They've gone through the quarterback carousel. He's disappeared at time. He only has three touchdown catches. Two of them were in the same game. That was against the Browns. So it's very hit or miss, but at times he's single-handedly kept that offense afloat. But I'm going to go Thomas over him just because

I like Neighbors more as a player, but I like Thomas's production a little bit more at five. Okay. So Thomas is in my top five as well. I came up with eight names that were really strong candidates to me. And that's, it was, there There is very little separation, or nine names, I should say.

There is very little separation for me between like four and nine on this list. Yeah. Am I going to, am I being a homer to put Drake Mayo ready number five? I mean, he's. I feel it. I hear it in your voice right now, actually. Like, do I, am I wrong? It's there a little bit.

No, you're not wrong. Maybe I'll wait four more weeks, but here's what I think. He's elevating a team around him. I think if you just were saying who's playing quarterback at a better level like him or Bo Nix or Caleb, I think there's a pretty strong argument to say Drake May's playing better.

All right, it's going to get interesting then. I'm going to not put May in. I changed my mind. Oh, we backed him off. We've backed him away. I'm going to get really hipster here. And I'm actually doing it off of people that I trust. People, Ali Connolly and John Ledyard have been banging this drum.

Nate Tice. I've talked to people inside the league a little bit too. They think Zach Frazier of the Steelers is one of the eight best centers in the NFL right now. And so I think just because we have this platform too, and we haven't mentioned Zach Frazier, the whole freaking season, that to come in, and I know he missed a couple games, when he's been out there, be maybe the best player on a really improving offensive line at traditionally a very difficult position. Let's just give him a little bit of love. He is number five on my list.

I will mention the guys that did not make my top that I think deserve a lot of mention is neighbors. I can't believe neighbors is not on my list. And then Joe Alt, I think deserves a little bit of love, has played really solid at tackle. And then Drake May. And now I'm really in a tough bind. But yes, I'm putting Zach Frazier there at number five. I agree with the Frazier sentiment.

Obviously, an offensive lineman is not going to get offensive rookie of your consideration. But here on our show, we make the rules. And we're going to make it for it. Yeah, I agree. We can, though. Like, why can't they? We can do it. The voters will be listening to this.

You never, like, if people who have the articles and you write on NFL.com can just, Start putting it on. Then maybe some people will put them four or five. Oh, okay. All right. Grassroots campaign starts right here at NFL Daily. Okay, cool. I think it actually points to a really good comparison

or at least an interesting comparison in how the Steelers have drafted an offensive line because Broder Jones at Tackle was a guy who I really liked the Combine who has not fared well, has not lived up to expectation for the Steelers so far. Then they come back and they double down. They say, we're going to invest in the offensive line again, but we're going to start inside out. We're going to sign Isaac Sam Mallow.

We're going to draft Zach Frazier. We're going to draft Mason McCormick. And suddenly you have an offensive line that is working well enough for both Naji Harris and Jalen Warren in smaller spurts to find success and for Russell Wilson to have time to throw. And that's a big reason why they are where they are. And I think Frazier is a key part of that. Center is really hard to come in and immediately find success. Usually if you do, you're an elite talent. And I very much agree with this.

I just wish that offensive line got more love. There we go. So we're going to give it to it. By the way, I said 2012, and that was what I was thinking because I thought about the quarterbacks. But the rest of that class actually was a bit of a disaster with Trent Richardson and whatnot. 2011 is the gold standard for draft classes in the modern era. And as rookies, they were outrageous on both sides of the ball. But let's give you some options of the players.

Cam Newton, one of the best rookie quarterbacks of all time. Jason Kelsey immediately stepped in and was at an extremely high level. Julio Jones is in that class. Tyron Smith came in great in that class. Andy Dalton was a sneaky, good rookie. He had his buddy, A.J. Green on that same team. That is a nice little rookie class, Randall Cobbs in the mix. I might take that class over.

Yeah, I thought that was going to be the green class. Defensively, they're even better, but even offensively, it's good. All right, go to number four. Number four, this is where it gets crazy. And this isn't biased, but I just love watching him play. and I love the run he's had recently. And he also started as a non-primary player. Bucky Irving for the Buccaneers.

Running back, 137-35 rushing yards, six touchdowns, has almost definitively taking control of the leadback roll. Now, he got hurt in Sunday's game, and Rashad White had to take over. But he's a guy who has proven to be capable of sifting his way through traffic, ripping off big runs. He's been consistent. He's helped to open up the entire Buccaneers' offense,

starting from the backfield. they went into this draft knowing they needed to be better as a running team and they went and got Bucky Irving for that purpose and I think he's delivered so far he's another guy that's not going to land on the radars of a lot of people but like to avoid the whole wide receiver log jam

that I encountered there and to avoid going quarterback too early I thought he's a nice little pick there he's one of the players I've really enjoyed watching in that backfield which is kind of a three-headed backfield if you throw Sean Tucker into the mix that's fun I'm glad you put a player that I wasn't going to our lists

are going to be very different I struggled with what to do with Bo Nix. Like, in my heart, I'm trying to think of how to give this award. In my heart, I believe Brian Thomas Jr., for instance, is better at his position now than Bo Nix's. And it's not most valuable player. So, yeah, quarterbacks get a little extra credit because their position's more important,

but are you excellent at what you do now? it's not it's not the most valuable rookie so i wrote down nick's fourth because i'm afraid of the broncos fans if i don't list them at all but as i'm talking it through i don't really believe and i got i got to do what i believe shook i'm putting brian thomas in here okay thought you're going to go drake may for a second no may Give him four more games. People act like he missed the whole season. I mean, he didn't miss that much.

I think May is playing at a great level, but I'm going to go Brian. I'm going to go Brian Thomas Jr. here at the four spot. This makes for great podcasting, me changing my mind midstream. I just think as good as Nick's has been, and he's getting better and better. The first month counts when he was playing at a below average level, and he's for a starting quarterback.

And he's very, very good. for a rookie starting quarterback, but we don't have to give the award to a quarterback just so. And we have other options at quarterback anyways in this class if you really want to go there. And so I think Brian Thomas Jr. is already a plus plus starting wide receiver. He's going to go number four for me. What's next for you? I like that logic and it kind of blows up the logic that I already laid out there because I'm putting Nick's third. And it's because of the way he's played recently. And I think a lot of these season awards, what you did later in the season ends up mattering more than what you did

earlier. I mean, I look at Lamar last year. He closed his MVP season with the last five weeks of the season. And because Dak Prescott blew a tire in that game against Buffalo, obviously different awards, but it just kind of speaks to the minds of voters. Recency matters. But you're the voter here. You can decide whatever you are. I don't want you follow back off that. What I like is that he grew. He's grown within, you know, under Sean Payton's, you know, oversight this season. And they're using him in most games where he's best, which is out in the perimeter. I think he's developing as a decision maker. He's an athletic player who can extend plays and pick up solid gains on the ground with his legs. I feel like he's just trending upward.

And by the end of the season, like, he threw two picks in that Browns game. They still win that game. He didn't look great, but he still looked good enough. He was still spinning it at times. I think he's just going to continue on this path to where by the end of the season, I don't think he's going to enter the top two conversation here, but people are going to look at him and say, bright future. He can be the guy for them. And that's really all I'm looking for at quarterback. specifically because it's so much harder to be a really successful quarterback as a rookie than it is at other positions. And he's been on a good path for me. So I'm going there. 2,800 passing yards, 17-D-8 touchdown interception ratio. Added 304 yards in the ground.

He's got four rushing touchdowns. Doing a little bit of everything, I like him at three. See, TD interception ratio, for a while around the NFL, I would just rail against pass rating and just say it's useless. Like, we don't need to use pass rating. And then I just stopped to even ever mention it. Like, that's the best way to just ignore it. Yeah, yeah. And now I'm getting there with TD to interception ratio. It could just, I mean, I know that's basically what informs the QB radio anyway. Like Caleb Williams right now has a great TD interception ratio, 16 to 5.

And, you know, anyone from Denver would get mad that Bo Nix is on this list. Like, Caleb Williams is not on this list either. His numbers are actually quite good. But it's partly because of all the throws he's not making, that he's holding the ball and taking those sacks. And he's avoiding mistakes. And that's really important. but that does not an offensive rookie of the year make,

so I don't have Knicks or Caleb Williams on my list, even though I had Knicks written down, and I just wasn't feeling it. I have Ladd-McConkie three. I love it. Talk about getting better throughout the course of the season. I did not think he could get as open on the outside as often as he has. He's had to carry a big load in that offense,

and he's made me rethink of whether he can be a true one, whatever that means. We heard this conversation about Nico Collins for a minute, too. I don't think he's quite Nico Collins, but for him to be this good as a rookie, as long as he can stay healthy, you can keep getting better at the NFL. That's what Nico Collins started to do. And when they gave Nico Collins that contract last year, I was like, well, he's definitely a top 20, 25 receiver in the NFL. And that was after his second year. And I kind of think McConkey's there right now. And so why can't he keep getting better and evolve really into a number of one. He's better than I expect it. I think he's just having a fantastic rookie season and is a plus

starter for a team that's winning. So McConkey gets my number three. I love Ladd McConkey. He is the, in the last couple of years, I've had a couple of really favorite receivers that weren't in that like elite group that everybody was talking about at the combine. Two years ago is Tank Dell. This year, it's Ladd McConkey. He was at Georgia forever. So if you follow college football, you knew who he was. But I also, actually, I thought he was going to make an impact pretty quickly as long as he was in system. He's not in the right system, but he has the right quarterback. And we saw how important he was that offense when they went out and played against the chiefs and they didn't have him. And they had to turn to Stone Smart to move the ball down the field. He's fantastic. My comparison,

though, talking about number one receivers, I made, I infamously made a comment to a former colleague who did not let me live it down over the next four years, Terry McLaren. When he was a rookie, reminded me a lot of Ladd-McConkie as a rookie, just the way that they played the plays that they made. And I said, great number two, don't know if he can be a number one. We'll he's clearly a number one. He's clearly a number one. Can Ladd be a number one? If Terry McLaurin is the law, then yes, he could be a number one. I think that's an awesome comp. I think they win in similar sorts of ways. I do think they also could be in the same sort of place in the NFL ecosystem. Yeah. You're not going to be in that top five list, probably, but you really raise

the floor of what your passing game is going to be. And you're going to be. And you're going to going to be a consistent top 20 receiver throughout your career. So we'll see. All right, you're up to number two. Let's go. Number two, Jaden Daniels. A guy who I thought was going to run away with the award earlier than the season, they ran into some struggles offensively. Everybody blamed Cliff Kingsbury or Jaden Daniels mysterious rib injury or whatever it was. He's gotten back in track in recent weeks. The numbers don't quite suggest it anymore because of those lulls, 20-100 passing yards, you know, 15 to 6 touchdown interception ratio. Sounds a lot like bow nicks, but visually, we know the difference that he makes in this offense. He is a guy who is

very much capable of handling all the stresses and pressures of playing quarterback in the NFL. He's got another 590 yards on the ground and six rushing touchdowns. He opens up that offense. He's going to be a star for years to come. And if they hadn't hit that law, I think he'd be the leader in the clubhouse right now. But because they did, it's going to get interesting up there, but he's my clear number two. Let's just have our conversation about Jaden versus Brock Bowers because that's our top two. I have Jaden, Daniels, one. I have. Bowers 2. It was close. You clearly have Bowers 1. I respect it. The whole, I want to count the whole season. And Jaden Daniels was a top five quarterback for about a third of the season. Man, that does

hold a lot of weight for me. I know he took a step back and he could lose this award in my rankings over the last month. But where we stand now, his EPA per play numbers are still fantastic. Like, they're not that close with Nix. His QBR's top five, like, that's not close with Nix. No. And, yeah, is he arguably the best player at his position in the league like Bowers? No, he's not there. But he's high enough where, man, he might be a Pro Bowl or something like that.

And as a rookie quarterback, that's enough where I guess I just said, I have a conservative streak in me. I'm giving it to Jane over Brock. But I love that you have Brock number one, so convince me. Well, yeah, because Jaden, his position kind of reminded me of C.J. Stroudic, so C.J. finished stronger than Jaden has so far. Still have a month left, so we'll see. Brock Bowers. Greg, you have been the guy on the Brock Bowers train for like six weeks. I was so happy he got that primetime Black Friday game against the Chiefs so that everybody in America who had nothing better to do than to watch a Black Friday football game, got an introduction

to the kid from Georgia who everybody in college has been raving about for years, do the same thing in the NFL. He's got 87 catches. 933 receiving yards. He's first in the NFL in receptions, by the way. 933 receiving yards, fourth in the NFL. He's got four touchdowns. He's third in yak. He's 10th in yak over-expected. He's 11th in receiving yards over-expected. He's a tight end in an offense that's playing with Aiden O'Connell, Gardner, Monshoe, Desmond Ritter. They have no running game. He's doing incredible things. This guy is a fantastic player, and he's going to be around for a long time, and you're going to know his name if you don't know it by now. And I think, despite all the challenges that he faces, he makes

enough spectacular plays in a terrible offense that he just may win the offensive rookie of the year award. I love it. And I, I'm with you. It really raises good questions about what is this award for? If it's just for pure excellence at what you're asked to do, Bowers has a strong case. Because I think it's between him and Kittle as the two, as the all pro tight end. I might lean Kittles still because of the blocking

and because Kittles having a great season two catching the ball. But those are the two. So you're telling me he is a top two at his position as a rookie. That just doesn't happen. That should win the award. I'm sorry. That's future Hall of Famer type of stuff without getting two over our skis. That's like that's the type of stuff Hall of Famers do. You know what I mean? And it doesn't happen too much at the tight end position.

Yeah, you might have convinced me. I got four weeks left to think about it. And these are just written in a light pencil that we can erase. I love it. You kind of did convince me. Commit. Write it in Penn. Jayden's having a fantastic offensive rookie season as well.

This is a great class. I stand by my statement. It's one of the best that we've seen. And it makes sense because the first round and the early second round, even of this draft were dominated by, offensive players, especially skill position players, but yeah, some of the linemen have turned into studs right away as well. So yeah, give them some love as well. Let's wrap it up here with a little captain's corner. It is time for the captain's corner presented by Captain Morgan.

Get us going, Nick. All right. Well, we're going to go to a guy who attracts a lot of attention in the off season year round, 365 days. But he hasn't had a great year this year, whether it's not having his quarterback, dealing with injuries, whatever it is, just hasn't really quite been there like his fantasy managers wanted him to. But fantasy managers be damned because Tyreek Hill had 10 catches for 115 yards and a touchdown and the overtime went over the Jets. And I know the overtime period was the John Smith show, but they got there in part because of Tyreek Hill. It made me really happy to see him break 100 receiving yards and play a significant role in this offense when he hasn't been able to for much of this year. Why? We can unpack that later. But for one day,

he was once again a captain for the Dolphins in a must-win game. Well, why is it like your fantasy team? It got you like into the playoffs or something like that? No, it's just I, no, I'm saying why hasn't he played as big of a role in that offense? Yes. Because that offense is, it's been up and down. Yeah, okay, I'm going to go with the obvious one. I try to like go through my notes and who would be a fun guy to pick of all the games

that I watched on Monday since we last talk. And I went through the Rams, Bill's game closer. and it's just one of the best wide receiver performances. As great as Matthew Stafford was in that game, and I'm sure we're going to talk about him with Jordan Rodriguez in the studio on Tuesday, have a fun show plan. As great as Stafford was,

that was a special wide receiver performance by Puka Nakua, who in an age of just elite wide receiver play, the way A.J. Brown is playing this year when he has a chance to catch the ball, the way Jamar Chase is playing, obviously the run that Justin Jefferson is on. Puka offers a different flavor, and that game showed how much he's improved since his rookie year when he, by the numbers, was the best rookie wide receiver in the history of the sport. And when he's healthy, and he's healthy now, he belongs right there with those names.

And I think he's still getting that fifth round tax just a little bit, that maybe you don't think of him like right at that level. he's so unique he has such good vision as a runner chase has this too but they're both such fantastic runners in terms of setting up their blocks and his hands and his body control everything is just top top elite and he he's developed into an even better player than he was as a rookie which i didn't think was possible and i thought maybe to take a step back this year it is the total opposite so he is my captain morgan captain of the week and he can credit cooper cup allowing him to throw up on his front lawn during off-season workouts for getting there.

There you go. That was the captain's quarter presented by Captain Morgan. It's Delicious and crisp. Perfect for game day with your friends. Spice it up. Visit Captain Morgan.com to find a captain near you. Please drink responsibly. That is it.

Let's get out of here. We've hung too long on this Monday night. We've got to get Shook to, you know, go watch some games. What are you going to watch first, Shook? Play the music. We're going to watch Chicago, San Francisco. Why not? Brock Purdy, back on the horse, baby.

It is always fun, having it shook. We've done this every Monday night all season long. I've absolutely loved it. We've got three to go. We've got a double header next week. That should be fun until Tuesday's show with Jordan and Colleen Wolf and then another little special guest. Yeah, when we're breaking down offensive rookie of the year,

you know football is back. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, We take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else. It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday.

Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael F. Florio, and together we host the NFL fantasy football podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

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