NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - The Dalton Scale: How Do Current QBs Measure Up?

Episode Date: May 16, 2018

A room filled with heroes- Dan Hanzus, Gregg Rosenthal, Chris Wesseling & Marc Sessler- weigh in on audio clip consuming the nation - the Laurel or Yanny debate (2:00). The heroes then take a look at the current QBs in the league and how they measure up on The Dalton Scale (6:00). Where does Derek Carr rank (18:00), Is Tyrod Taylor ahead or behind Dalton (24:00), how do the top rookie QBs compare to the Red Rifle (32:33) and more.Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comNFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. The Around the NFL podcast never pays their sandwich bets. Welcome back to another edition of the Around the NFL podcast. My name is Dan Hansis. I am in a room that's filled with heroes. Mark Sessler, Chris Wessling, and Greg Rosenthal.

What is up, boys? Hey, Dan. Woo-wee. I can feel the energy in this room. Greg and Wes about to board an early morning plane to Tai B, leaving us behind, which is not their fault. We cannot go. No, definitely not their fault.

Yeah, Wes, Greg, the Big Fish, Evan Silva, the Paramore. All will be in Tybee this time tomorrow. How exciting is that? Look, guys, if you can get away at the last minute, the owner of Huckapoo's, the great Eric Thomas, has offered his house as a crash pad for any overflow crowd. That's a nice gesture. But not surprising from E.T.

Considering Huckapoo's is kind of the cheers of Tai B, right? It's where everybody goes. It's home in a way. And he's also one of the most generous men I've ever known. My image of Tybee Island is you can really walk into almost any house and just crash there at any time. I should tell you about the time I did that. Please.

Oh, we could save it for... Do they have a prison, by the way? For the Tybee Island. I've been in the jail. Crash pod? What's the crime rate in Tybee? Substantial? No.

There is a lot of drug activity. I feel like it's a lot of people running from previous crimes. There's a lot of tourism, so you'll have a lot of weekend jailing. No one talks about their form. former life once they get to Tybee. That's all in the past. I would say it's the opposite. Everyone has an interesting backstory how you ended up in this end of the road place.

So very exciting. Please get Greg in some trouble, Wes. I don't. Please. No, I mean. No, no, no. Yes. Then there'll be a whole who wears the pants in the relationship that will take it to a new level because Greg's going to be in the doghouse.

Oh, I thought you were saying who wears the pants in my relationship with the U.S. No, no. Another conversation. I don't want your wife to have to take the pants back. I get you in trouble. Oh, you mean, like, getting him thrown in jail? Well, I mean, Mark wants me to get him in trouble. I distinctively want you to have a Greg in a situation that Greg has not been in roughly

14 years. Well, that might happen even without getting him in trouble. Are you referring to getting him drunk? I think he's been there. That's the only thing I want. He's been there plenty of times. Get him drunk, Wes. We can't play the choo-choo music anymore.

Yeah, I know. Come on ride the train. Are you excited, Greg? I am. Yeah. regular you know sisterhood of the traveling pants uh yeah so uh mark and i will hold down the fort here and maybe just maybe we can get you guys on the line on friday uh for our next podcast but this podcast yes there's excitement in the air uh over the big tiebee trip but also excitement over oh

it's back it is time is the 2018 edition of the dalton scale oh yeah in fact that That is the entirety of today's episode. We are not messing around where what is the Dalton scale? We'll get into that in the minute. But essentially what this episode is is a breakdown of the quarterbacks in the NFL, the starting quarterbacks that we saw in action last year and where they rank. And then with special attention given to where is the cutoff point where you don't really have a franchise starting quarterback, that's what the Dalton scale is all about.

And before we get into that conversation, just one quick thing. One quick thing, it's out there in the world. It's a huge pop culture phenomenon right now. And it's also specifically something that's an audio file. So if you're on a podcast, why don't we just listen and tell me what you hear. Laurel. Do you hear Yanni or Laurel? I hear Laurel.

I hear very distinctly Laurel. Yeah, this time, Laurel. Yesterday I heard Yanni. It sounds completely different. Depends on the frequency. What do you hear? What are you here? Lindsaying it through the podcast like through here.

Then it did when I play on my computer. It sounds totally different. It changes the frequency. What do you hear? I hear Laurel. And the first time I heard it, I heard Yanni. Same. I heard Yonni yesterday and Laurel today.

That's so weird. One more time. Laurel. Laurel. This is like the audio version of what color is the picture of this dress. Yeah. But I think. Sound waves, it sounds like, and I don't know the first thing about it,

maybe completely rejiggered depending on what you're listening through. So maybe everyone listening to this here's Laurel. And if you're listening to it on your little computer, it says, Yanni, well, got to the bottom of that one. Yeah, because if you pull it up on your laptop, that's what it sounds like. What if you're listening to that recording that we just all heard Laurel on through your computer? And then you screwed. Then you bang. Your head explodes, is what happens.

Oh, man. It's crazy, right, guys? all right back when it passes i can get back on twitter back to the topic at hand the dalton scale established oh i would say west uh as the man that founded the dalton scale it was established what about five years ago now in that range that sounds right to me and when you first established the dalton scale and i want people who are going to take this and aggregate it on their blogs. And first of all, get it right. This comes from the around the NFL podcast. It was

started by Chris Wesleying. That is the source of the Dalton scale. And West, when it first popped into that magnificent Noggin of yours, what was the Dalton scale to you? Well, it started because the Bengals were quite evidently in purgatory at quarterback, where they were doomed to spend Andy Dalton's career right in the middle. wondering whether they have a franchise quarterback, wondering whether they have an answer or not, sometimes you feel like he is the answer, sometimes you don't.

When he's surrounded by great talent, he's a franchise quarterback. When he has to carry the load, he's not a franchise quarterback. So Andy Dalton is the prime meridian of starting quarterbacks in the NFL, the line below which you need a franchise quarterback, and above which you are set at the sports most important position.

There you go. And what we have done each of the past three or four years now, we've had a conversation right around this time of year to say is Andy Dalton still the man at the Dalton line and last year we came to the conclusion that yes Andy was still there the year before that which was coming off a season in which Dalton was a stud we all settled on as a group Alex Smith was the new Dalton line before that when it started it was Andy Dalton obviously to start so now we spin forward to 2018 Dalton is coming off a tough year. A tough year for Cincinnati, a tough year for Andy Dalton. So I don't imagine the conversation is going to be had that he is well above where this line would be. Then the conversation can become, Greg, is Andy Dalton below the Dalton line, which it gets complicated. But I think I understand this exercise by now.

That can happen. You famously struggled early with the concept that the line could move up. and down. It's really just about whether you've found your franchise quarterback or not, and that Andy Dalton is always going to be that line, whether the line moves up or down. And I think what's been proven is the wisdom and genius of this creation by Chris Wessling. Because I feel five years in, Andy Dalton has never been more of the prime meridian in the NFL for quarterbacks than he is right now he is the perfect line i remember doing this exercise you know coming up with the best quarterbacks in the league and he was like the one quarterback where i knew exactly where he was

there was no debate oh should he be in front of him no he was exactly where he was franchise quarterbacks above and other guys below and what i noticed one is and we what we did this is just a fun dressed up way too to do quarterback i mean forget forget you know trump wants the nobel peace prize how about chris wessling for coming up with this theory i don't Nominate them. Maybe not Peace. Maybe not Peace Prize, but do they have, like, you know, maybe the science or, uh, just analysis.

They have general analysis prize. The Nobel Science. General analysis prize. Yeah, they give away a lot. They give that on your fireplace. They give it a lot. They give it a lot. Uh, so what we've done this year is we, we look to figure out who is below the

Dalton line, who's above the Dalton line. We started by taking 30 quarterbacks that got, uh, 10 or more starts last year. And we, we gave, we put a ranking. on them. Okay. And the four of us, including Mark Sessler, Chris Wessling, Greg Rosenthal, myself. And we averaged it out. Actually sent it over to Dave Ely,

a man, often pounding the table for his boy, Cam Newton. And also, let's be honest, looking for love at all times, Dave Ely. But he took a time out from scrolling through his Tinder to help compute this for me, and I thank him for that.

So let's just start with the... He might find love if he stopped looking so hard. Have you got off an Excel? I think if you can't find any sort of connection on Tinder in Los Angeles, you have some issues. Yeah. Not saying that Dave does, but I don't know.

That's true. And Mark, now that I think about it on Friday, it's going to be you and me, a return of the debate club. Maybe get Dave on the line. Just see where he's at. A check-in. A checking. A periodic checking on Dave's personal life.

On his personal life. On a popular football podcast. All right. So before we get to that, really, fascinating underbelly of the quarterback ranks in the NFL. I just want to give everyone our top 10 quarterbacks when it was averaged out in the league right now. These guys are nowhere near the Dalton line. In fact, this is where you want your quarterback to be.

If you're in the top 10, you're in a good position. We have him Rogers at 1, Brady 2, Carson Wentz at 3, Big Ben at 4, Drew Breeze at 5, Russell Wilson at 6, Matt Ryan at 7. Andrew Luck at 8, Matt Stafford at 9, and Cam Newton at 10. Mark, are you surprised by anyone in that top 10 landing where they are? I had the only person, and this is projecting what I maybe hope or think will happen, I had Jimmy G. at 10, but I'm not surprised he didn't make the groups ranking, and he came in at 12, so he came close.

I think Philip Rivers at 11. For me, I look at games. Like, if I have a big game, do I want Philip Rivers, or do I want? want some of these guys above them. Well, what about you have, I like Rivers. On your personal list, Mark, you had Cam Newton all the way down at 16. My personal list was generated in roughly 125 seconds while I was juggling other activities. So I'm even looking at my personal list saying you maybe need to do a second draft of this,

but I am not a huge Cam Newton fan. Went seems high at three. But again, these are all guys. And I like seeing Stafford there in the top 10 kind of shows how much he's developed over the years. but none of these guys are even having the conversation in terms of whether they're franchise quarter. I mean, our top 10 lists across the board were pretty close to each other.

Yeah. Greg and I especially were very close with a lot of our picks all the way through the list. Wes, the next grouping. And this is like the, you're still clear because we have Andy Dalton in our average ranking at 21. So we're going to get to that. We're going to build up to Dalton. So now 11 through 20, Cam Newton, excuse me, Philip Rivers at 11, Jimmy G at 12, Kirk Cousins at 13, Deshawn Watson at 14, Alex Smith and Derek Carr both tied at 15.

And I wish I remember where Carr finished when we talked about this last year, but I imagine he took a drop. That was a tough year for him and the Raiders. At number 17, Dak Prescott after it was a disappointing sophomore season. James Winston at 18, Jared Gough at 19, which might surprise some people, and then Marcus Marriota at 20. So, Wes, based on the Dalton scale, these are all night, all 20 of those quarterbacks, including the last 10 I mentioned, are guys that are a solution, yes or no, yes or no for teams.

That's true. And my main takeaway from this year's project is that more franchises believe they have a franchise quarterback than ever before. Yes, I was thinking the same thing. And a lot of these young quarterbacks, to me, you guys look at this project differently than I do. I remain adamant that it's an off-season project. It's the GM's time of year. It's the roster construction time of year.

It's which quarterback do I want on my roster, not which quarterback do I want for a game next Sunday. So there's no way that say the Bears would trade Mitch Tribiskey for Andy Dalton. That's why Trubisky ranks higher on my list. Or Deshaun Watson or Marioada or all these. This is basically a tier of young guys who aren't proving yet, with the exception of Alex Smith, who I believe should be much closer to Dalton in the ranking. By your model, literally,

you know, the first year quarterback that you, the jury may still be out on Trubisky to some point, but the way the team building operates, there's no way he can come below Dalton because the team itself views him as a franchise quarterback. Well, to me it's a trade value exercise. It's which of these quarterbacks has the most value in the NFL. And I believe those guys are all more valuable than,

Andy Dalton. And to my point earlier, that it was the easiest year ever for me, and I think the most prescient that the Dalton scale has ever been, is because none of these guys, there's not really much of a debate with any of these guys. Alex Smith, I had pretty close to the line as well, Chris, and you could debate whether he's a guy you build around franchise quarterback, but even guys like Goff and Mariotta and Winston,

who I had a little closer to 20 just because someone had to be. there. There wasn't any doubt in my mind that those guys are franchise quarterbacks you're building around them without much question or really any question. It's not a year where I think there's guys ahead of Andy Dalton that you're thinking, well, maybe they're not going to be there a year from now. Well, I think Alex Smith specifically speaks to the fact that everything is relative. He's been told by two different franchises now that he's not a franchise quarterback, the 49ers and the Chiefs. However, the Redskins with no alternative available, both of those teams, the 49ers and Chiefs had Kaepernick and Mahomes, talented young, intriguing alternatives. The Redskins

had no alternatives, so they see him as a franchise quarterback. You could debate Smith would be below the Dalton scale if you really want it. But he's playing so well right now. I think he's above. On the other side of it is like, yes, he was traded from the 49ers. Why did he get traded? It wasn't because he was necessarily anything wrong with Alex Smith. It's because Colin Kaepernick at the time looked like a phenom and the Niners decided they wanted to make a move. Franchise quarterbacks do not get traded. Well, that's how you know the 49ers did not view him as a franchise quarterback. Wait a second, though.

If he was a top five, top 10 quarterback, the Niners, I don't think would have traded him. But you could still be in that 10 to 20 range like we're talking about and be a guy that's a solution, but not a superstar. And I think a similar thing happened not at the same level now with his second trade where they think Patrick Mahomes is a guy that can be an elite talent. I view Alex Smith as a franchise quarterback. I think the Redskins see that too in the money they game. I think he could have three or four years where he could lead that team and be an effective starter. He just feels like a long term stopgap over and over, though,

in the sense that he's kind of like wherever he lands, there's enough people inside the building constantly looking to upgrade. There's a reason, you know, Mahomes was there. It's because the Chiefs made a decision before the draft that they wanted to aggressively replace Alex Smith. that not only do we want to replace him, we want to give up a ton of resources to move up in the draft. And I'm sure they were excited about Patrick Mahomes personally.

But I think in general, they were looking for a quarterback in last year's draft. I don't disagree with that. And then Alex Smith went out and played the best football of his career last year. So I think he's kind of a fascinating guy in this discussion. And listening to last year's show, we were not high on Alex Smith at all. In fact, he was much lower on the,

on this list. We had him as a group below Joe Flacco. So I think maybe last year obviously helped him. Now the question is whether he's kind of a guy Washington can build around. They're hoping so. Other than Alex Smith, I'd like to ask the group of question because all these guys seem so locked in, the 10 to 20 young guys that we just went through. If one of them is, if you had to pick one of them to be below Dalton in the Dalton scale exercise a year from now,

who do you think it would be? And let's not count Alex Smith. Jared Gough? Because it's a tough one. Jared Gough? I wouldn't go Gough, but I mean, I guess Keenham could fall below. Well, Keenham is well below. You had Keenum much higher than the rest.

At least in the, I guess I'm looking at the aggregate. On the group list, I mean. Everyone else had Keenum in the bottom five. And, Mark, you had him around 13 or 14. It shows how hard it is. If I had to choose one. 13 or 14, had him at 20. If Goff would probably be my pick, too,

just because I'm not 100% sure and you never know what could happen this year. Kirk Cousins, I think, would be an underdog pick for that spot if he just did not have a good transition to Minnesota and we sourd that he actually isn't that big of a difference bigger. But that's only because I'm having to pick one of these guys. There will be changes. I think none of them.

Yeah, golf to me is. almost slump proof because of his offensive, because of his play caller. He's not going to have a bad season because Sean McVeigh is just that damn good. How about James Winston? Your answer is no one way? No, my answer would be injuries. So Deshaun Watson would not surprise me if he gets injured

again or Dak Prescott if he has another season like last year. Those two guys seem like... What if Marriota fell off a cliff after the season we just saw? And I realized there's an issue around him. There's not a lot of weapons. But that also you could say about Andy Dalton that Andy Dalton does not improve like average players around him that he sort of is a product of whatever the offense

is around him when they were extremely talented dalton had a near MVP type run for an eight nine 10 week period before he got hurt is mariotta someone that if he just goes out and has more picks than touchdowns again that he starts to we start to see him differently he's he's hard because in 2016 he absolutely improved the talent around him they they did not belong with that streak in the middle of the season with like six straight games averaging third 45 points per game with that roster. But last year, with his mechanics a mess, yeah, he was bad.

So unless he can get his mechanics straightened out, he's a candidate. But would anyone take Andy Dalton over Marietta? No, I wouldn't take Don over any of these guys necessarily. Goff? You know, I would, I'd think about it, at least. I wouldn't take him because Goff is so young and I still want to see what he does moving forward.

Derek Carr is another guy. I'll just be interested to see where he is a year from now. because of all of these young guys, his kind of stock in the league has gone about as up and down as any of them. It was only about three years ago where we were kind of down on Derek Carr. Then he's suddenly an MVP candidate and now he's coming off another. Great talent, though. Yes, the talent is kind of undeniable. One of the great quarterbacks potential.

I forgot. Yeah, they forgot where you were going to be careful. We don't want to get too down on Derek. We don't get another. Well, he is an undeniable talent. You're speaking the truth. Like, when you just look at him, like when you look at his skill set, you can see why everyone loves Derek Carr.

There are coaches and scouts who firmly believe he's going to be an MVP at some point in his career. And the reason I brought up Winston and Mariotta, who also came up, you just brought that up in a recent podcast. I think it's an important year for both of those guys. Yeah. If one of them or both of them do have, you know, substandard seasons, at some point, they'll be what, five years, four or five years into a career.

You maybe can start to take a look closer look at whether they are the answer for their teams we shall see and now here we go so this is where if we have dalton as a group of 21 and just so everybody knows this is how uh in the rankings zeuser had dalton at 21 gregg had dalton at 21 west had dalton at 22 and mark you had dalton at 27 so i don't i'm not a handy dalton mark does not believe in the dalton scale i i might have done my rankings in a way that you could critique and a little bit differently than West did, but I just feel that my issue with the Bengals in general is that we've agreed they need to at some point find a solution

and they refuse to do so. And I'm annoyed. Right. Well, we'll get to your list in a second, Mark. Blow up the Dalton scale, Mark, says. I'm not trying to be an anarchist with this. Just forget my sheet of paper. But everything else, everything else makes sense.

The rest of us have Dalton, the 21 or 22. So from this list, the average going down, these are quarterbacks according to our calculations are not the answer at quarterback, unless they are. Everybody can pipe up, pipe in if you disagree. At number 22, we have a three-way tie at 22, Joe Flacco, Ryan Tannahill, and Sam Bradford, which is kind of fitting. Those guys are all tied together right below Andy Dalton. At number 25, Tyrod Taylor, 26, Case Keenham. 27. And this is the tricky one, Mitch Trubisky, who only had a, you know, 10 or 12 starts last year and now has a totally different offense around him and coaching staff. So we'll see where he goes. 28. We have Eli. 29 Blake Bortles coming off an AFC championship appearance. Blake Bortles comes in at number 29 and 30, Josh McCown, which makes a lot of sense. We like Josh McCown, but he is no one's version of a franchise quarterback to look to the.

future with thoughts on that group chris wessel so many of these guys could move above dalton with a good year um eli who i ranked very low it's quite possible he could be seen at this time next year as a guy who's rejuvenated with all that offensive talent and he belongs above andy dalton uh sam bradford i think he's a better quarterback right now than andy dalton but durability he counts, so I can't rank him as a franchise quarterback? He didn't play last year, barely. Joe Flacco could have a good year with all that new talent they acquired, but it's a dead giveaway when they draft the guy in the first round

that you're not necessarily a franchise quarterback. They told us what they thought in terms of where he stands in the Dalton scale. They decided he's below it. You don't take a quarterback. I mean, look at the list. Flackle, Lamar Jackson gets drafted. Ryan Tannahill. The Dolphins maybe don't.

They do believe he's about. What is Tannhill, 7, 1, 8, 1 over his last nine starts? not saying that's why they didn't that was two years ago i get that but there's confidence inside the building they easily could have gone after a quarter why were they reported to be interested in all those quarterbacks if there's confidence i well their bottom line they didn't do it they didn't make a move but yeah so then radford uh he gets let go by minnesota he signs with the cardinals and then the cardinals draft the quarterback tyrod taylor he gets traded by the bills who draft the quarterback case Keenham. He gets let go by the Vikings and gets signed by the Broncos. And then Eli is interesting

that they did not make a move like Tannahill. They stayed still. Same thing with Bordals and the Jaguars. And then McCown, of course, you have now Sam Donald in the building. Some people do believe that the Giants made a move when they drafted Kyle Laletta. Charlie Casually believes he's guaranteed to be the heir apparent to either. He was drafted around later than Davis Webb was. He year ago. I know it's a different regime, but you don't see fourth round picks develop like that too often. Maybe Charlie will be right. Tyrod Taylor was the guy I think I had immediately after Dalton. And to me, if I had to pick another player who could be the Dalton scale right now, I think it would be Tyrod, who I think in a strong way is kind of a replacement level starter where he's not going to

screw things up he's going to be better than about 10 starters out there he can he has very defined strengths some defined weaknesses and he's just kind of right there solid in the middle like tyrod would and especially now that he's done it in three different offenses in three different seasons in buffalo and kind of been the same player regardless of who is running the offense to me he if i needed an air apparent for the dalton scale it'd be tyrod and all of that is true but also it's very important that as soon as he plays, they want to get rid of him. Well, I think some of these teams... Yeah, right.

Nobody in the NFL sees him as a franchise quarterback or else they would have traded for him or signed him. Right. Like Buffalo and Cleveland are two teams that with the way things have been, if someone said we can give you what looks like stability for two seasons under center. Those organizations would say yes. And that's what the bills did say with Tyrod Taylor.

That's what the bills, the Browns essentially are saying. It might be two weeks. we don't know, but it's like we've got a guy ahead of the rookie, but you're constantly planning to replace him. And if Andy Dalton weren't on a very unusual Bengals organization that's happy to stay where they are, he would have been replaced on the team he was drafted with by someone else. I believe that entirely. To West's point, though, I think Dalton would have more trade value than Tyrant.

I also think Tyrod has never actually hit the open market free agency. I think he would have gotten a similar or better contract to what Sam Bradford got similar. But that, again, puts them below the line. I agree with you, West. I think Dalton has more trade value. But what I'm saying is if Dalton had been drafted by the Niners or the Rams or the Cardinals or another team, do you think they would have stuck with what Andy Dalton is from 2011 until now?

I just think the reason this list is what it is, is that most teams have actively drafted and looked for replacement starters. And we have five new quarterbacks coming in now that can make. this list look completely different a year or two from now, where Andy Dalton could wind up 27, 28, 29, 30. The difference to me is that the Bengals see Andy Dalton as a guy. If they surround him with the right talent, he's the guy. And I don't think the, I think the Chiefs once thought that about Alex Smith, but they got to a point where they didn't think that anymore. And, you know, just like Alex Smith was an MVP candidate last year, we're only a few years removed from that 2015 season,

in which Andy Dalton played magically. And I think the Bengals, I don't blame them for thinking, hey, if we can surround him, he can get back to that. That, again, focusing on those names that we have below Andy Dalton, it is interesting that, as I mentioned, the dolphins, the Giants, and the Jaguars are the three teams that are sitting tight with their quarterback that we see below Dalton,

and they got a lot of criticism for it. So they're kind of banking on the idea that these are guys that can and will be better than they were last season or in Dalton's case get back or in Tannhill's case get back to where he was before his injury. Although Tana Hill, he's been right next to Dalton every year that we do this. Yes. We thought about calling it the Tana scale. Which I like. Sounded back in 2015 and he hasn't really moved too far up or down. I think at some point I bet I bet I had him at least personally above Andy Dalton in the scale, but now he's below.

It sure seemed like the Dolphins liked Baker Mayfield a lot, and I think if in a different world, Mayfield had slipped down out of that top world of draft picks, maybe the Dolphins would have done something different on draft day. I'm picking Nits here because, you know, Joe Flacco is below Andy Dalton, ultimately. I was a little surprised, I guess others must have had him a little higher up than I do in these rankings,

just looking at kind of what, you know, basically just what he's put on tape for two straight years and that he's an older, he's not that old, but he's older with pretty serious injury issues that he was even that close to Andy Dalton was not someone I thought was kind of in the ballpark right now. I had him 27th, so I was not one who had him high. I am 23, but I look at the last chunk of guys

is like almost interchangeable to some degree. I had Placo at 23 as well. Well done, Dan. Yes. What about the top 10 going back to those guys? Is there anyone in that group that you could see potentially entering the Dalton scale conversation or I could open it up to the top 12 on our list.

I guess who jumps out to me just because of the lack of experience is Jimmy Garapolo. We'll see he might end up being a guy that's in the top five conversation, but we haven't seen a ton from him. Anybody to you with guys? He was kind of the dividing line between the established stars and the younger group. It was basically Jimmy G. and Kirk Cousins was kind of in between.

Because above that, yeah, I'd be shocked if Matthew Stafford or a healthy Andrew Luck or even Cam Newton or Matt Ryan, certainly if we were at all talking about them and their futures. I think it would have been easy to pick on Matthew Stafford in years past, but he's completely improved over the last 16, 20, 20. And that's the trick with Mariotta and Winston, for instance, is I think about Stafford's career path, Cam to a lesser degree,

that, yeah, even if Winston and Mariotta are right in the middle of the NFL, but they show a lot of good things, those are guys you're giving a big second contract to because the hope is, as they get to their late 20s and early 30s, as we've seen, sometimes it's about your mind catching up and that guys like Matt Ryan are playing their very best at age 33,

and I think that's partly because of experience, because he's been in the league. And Mariotas had, what, four, coaches at this point. I mean, it's like, as an organization, you have to look at what you've put your quarterback through. And some of these guys have been through the ringer. I mean, Marriota, how would he be in a system that have been consistent from day one? Yeah, you can't overstate the importance of the right play caller. And I don't think it's any coincidence that's the Stafford's career stabilized when Jim Bob Cooter took over.

Gooter. And started protecting him and getting rid of the ball fast in an offense that suited Stafford, I think. But when I look at the top 10, to me, the candidates, the only canaanists are the old guys if they fall off a cliff ben rothusberger philip rivers uh true brees what andrew luck if he doesn't play again would you who did you have someone in mind then well i'm i don't want this to be the truth but andrew luck what if he comes back and he has you know 2005 chad pennington arm what have you just lost his arm strength yeah and those those passes that he you know he was always a turnover prone quarterback what if he ends up being a guy that can't force the ball into windows anymore and turns into a turnover machine uh i hope it doesn't happen

and it's a depressing thought, but until we see him on the field, we don't know. It could happen to him. He's a total mystery. What makes me feel good about him is I think he adjusted and was a very different player in 2016, a very underrated player in 2016 when he was playing through that shoulder injury.

And I think he showed us a little bit more of a mature, didn't take as many chances, kind of developing, getting smarter, Andrew Locke, and hopefully that's the guy that returned. I mean, Dan, to quell your fears, at least you know they're not, the cults are not rushing him back, on the field

I wouldn't say that they are even a little bit here's the other part of this conversation so Baker Mayfield Sam Darnel Josh Allen Josh Rosen Patrick Mahomes all guys that aren't involved with this list but can easily

be involved either next year or in two years is it first of all two part question does it feel like there are more good quarterbacks right now and the possibility at the position it's getting a little rosier the picture than it was in recent years.

And two, if these guys hit in Tannahills at 22 this year, and I think in past years he was more in the middle of the pack, not Tadillo, sorry, Dalton, at what point does Andy Dalton get moved out of the conversation as being that prime meridian? Well, I think Andy Dalton stays because he remains. But what if he's like 28? But then at that point, that just means you have 27 guys who are really good quarterbacks. That never happened before? No, and I think, I think the one thing, if teams have caught up.

to anything. It's the fact that you can go out and sign, you know, the Josh McCowns of the world and try to tell your fans all offseason. Oh, no, we really like Josh McCown. He's going to be a solidifying presence in the locker room, X, Y, and Z. That's nice. But teams have figured out all it happens is you wind up going 5 and 11. People get fired if you don't put all your resources into finding the quarterback. And now the draft sometimes doesn't offer that many. When this one did, you saw a team like the Jets give up everything they had to to change their organization. and now listen to what they're saying. And so you cannot pass up the opportunity anymore.

And the Dalton's of the world, I think he's going to fall down this list as we see an unprecedented amount potentially of quality starting quarterbacks because there have been other years where there have been 12 quarterbacks on any given week that are eyesores. Right.

If you get lucky, it's two or three tops. That's how it should be. Put it this way. And we'll never be in a QB Nirvana because of injuries and all that. But if Dalton is on this, if we're doing this next year, Dalton's at 28, we are in an unprecedented golden age of quarterback play.

And I hope it works out that way, but I imagine some of these guys will age out at the top of this list and some of the rookies will fail. And then everyone else will probably end up in the same range. It will still prove his list or his theory to be completely true because it just plays out like that. Right. The problem was that we suffered through many seasons where Dalton was up around 1920, and it's because there was an absolute dearth of quarterbacks.

One thing about this whole point is that there are 10 to 12 young guys here who franchises C as franchise quarterbacks who might not be. So that's kind of padding the stats here a little bit. But I think that also what we've seen is that I've been collecting all these quotes from coaches and GMs over the years about how important quarterbacks are. Bill O'Brien is the latest one who said it's impossible to overpay for a franchise quarterback. I've been collecting this because I don't think teams and analysts always thought that way, and now they're starting to.

You don't have Jimmy Garoppolo sitting behind an established quarterback anymore. All these teams who need quarterbacks are going out and getting those guys. I do think it's fair to say at this very moment there's more franchises that feel good about their future at quarterback than any time, you know, in recent. That's good for football. It's probably a bubble, though. History tells us it's a bubble. and some of that, this younger group, let's just make the group official. It's basically Jimmy G. Watson, Carr, Prescott, James, Gough, Mariotta.

Let's make that the group for now. Well, then you got, we even throw in Baham's, Tribiski, all of them, their teams are not going to, all of those guys, their teams are not going to feel as good about all of those guys two years from now as they do right now. It's just, that's just how it works. And again, extend that to Trubisky, Mahomes, all the first round rookies. And the bubble is for real, though, because we're not that far away from losing Brady, losing Breeze, losing Big Ben, losing Philip Rivers.

Aaron Rogers is not young anymore. It can still play for quite a bit longer. But there's a bunch of older dudes who've been on this list for a hundred years. I mean, I wrote some terrible QB Index article, like four years ago. I think that was like, now it's time for the changing of the guard at quarterback. Like, so long to the Brady and Breeze there. I mean, Peyton Manning was in there, so at least he, you know, That part was right.

It's like, you know, Brady and Bree is not going to be here any longer. It's time for Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, and RG3 or whatever. You know, and it's like that was four years ago. Don't feel bad, Greg, because like 15 years ago, Bill Simmons wrote a column saying that Bill Belichick might be too old to be. So it happens to everybody. Breeze and Brady specifically, Peyton to a lesser degree, have helped to change the timeline. So we are maybe in a steep spot. For eight more years.

Normally, we would think of Rogers is basically at the very end now. If it wasn't for Breeze and Brady kind of changing our mind of what can be possible. Dan, Billichick wasn't too old until Super Bowl 52. Yeah. Now he's ancient. Now it's over. Yeah, we might be in, and Mark is someone that lived through the dot-com bubble of the late 90s. You could attest to this.

We were all alive during that time. You were like right in the middle. I was actually employed with a dot-com company that burst entirely. Dan was in diapers, you know. Yeah, right. What is this? Y2K, Daddy. Um, Y2K was funny.

Uh, but we are probably like potentially in a special golden age. And it's only going to last for what one to three years maybe where potentially these young guys, even if we only hit on two or three of these young guys or even two, uh, God forbid one, hopefully the guy in the Jets. Um, uh, if those guys hit and then Rogers, Brady, Big Ben, Breeze, those guys kind of hang around. We could have a situation where they're like 25 real. franchise quarterback. I will promise you something. Lots of things. We'll go wrong. Yeah. Injuries. Yeah. I mean, it was, like, if you think about last year as a good example, there was a window there where Wentz, Brady, Breeze, Russell Wilson, and Ben were all playing at a really high level. And those five guys all kind of represent, other than Brady and Breeze,

like different parts of their career, you know, like it was all the different generations, basically, of quarterbacks. And you had guys just playing at a, at a really high level. What we need, though, is like 60 guys. So when people get hurt, we're still sitting in football. I mean, it's... Can we do that? It's just absurd.

Because you compare them to each other, so no matter what, you're not going to love it. It's just absurd that the earth cannot farm 32 guys. We've said this a billion times. And it's like, I don't care about whatever limitations there are on college systems and growing athletes. Right. The idea that, like, you have 189.

How many college teams play on Saturday? It's an absurd amount. It's a disorganized giant. giant amount. How do you not come out with 32 starting quarterbacks over the course of five years? We'll always move the goalpost, though, because if you just look at the numbers, it's like, if you just look at Derek Carr and Dak Prescott's numbers, those numbers stand up with the great quarterbacks of the 1980s.

And those two quarterbacks had down years from our eyes. Like, we were like watching them thinking they didn't play that well. But their numbers were good and we're just comparing it to the rest of the years. Well, you know, numbers are inflated. Like, why would we even judge? Like, what if every backup quarterback was Andy Dalton? They're right around there. So even if you got your backup,

you're not going to see grotesque football with John Beck. It's impossible. Why can't we get there? John Beck. Because we've already said, we've already said. Shanahan's golden boy. Yeah, that Andy Dalton is no one's version of a Hall of Famer or a franchise star. Why can't we get more of those guys just to be backups?

Well, then offense would be too good. Yeah, defensive coordinators get paid as much as offensive coordinators. Yeah. Like I'll take a Seahawks Patriots Super Bowl where there's like a little bit of defense and a lot of offense too. You want some balance. Yeah, I agree. There's a little too much. Well, just keep, you know, benching Malcolm Butler and whoever the next version of that is and you'll have both teams scoring endlessly.

Some of these guys, like a Trevor Simeon, looks fine when you put him behind a real offensive line. But you can't put backup quarterbacks behind trash offensive lines. Let's just make all the teams pretty good. parody but not like parody where everybody's kind of crappy parody where everybody's pretty good that feels that feels like uh pleasantville or something that's what i'm looking for i feel like that's i feel like that's essentially week seven through week 12 of every NFL season you would not be satisfied with that i would

no you see that what about when it's like 10 o'clock at night and you're watching like a sunday night football game between two clubs that are three and eight you know what you would be you would be like the two thousand sixteen two thousand seven Lions. I don't think you would want that. Or any Miami Dolphins team. Everyone's 8 and 8 and everyone plays really well. That's what I'm looking at. You like the

Matt Moore-led dolphins. But a better Matt Moore. That's that you are right, Dan. If you're not a true visionary, I don't know what to call you. I think every football fan would agree that every team going 8 and 8 would be unusual. I mean, listen, I know it's kind of a theory it's a little bit out there. Maybe I'm lost in the woods

a little bit. But if everybody was good and everyone went 8 and 8, Nobody would be unhappy. I think this is your next column next week. I do need an idea. It's running low on ideas this time of year. There's no light without darkness, Dan. Well, that's true.

This would get attention, your wish of all eight and eight NFL. I mean, I don't know. That sounds like how. Cleveland would be happy about that. Yeah, the teams that are bound to go two and 14, like the idea of eight and eight as a nice island to sit on. But then what about the teams that inspire our love of football? They would all be reduced to milk toast, nothingness.

The games are great, though. Really competitive. Think of your favorite game from last year. Every game is like that. This is the most, you know, out-of-the-box idea since my let's-play two regular season games per day all-season long idea, which is still out there. Two per day.

You can figure it out. I don't know if the Players Union will sign up for that one. You want to jump on that Park Avenue and run with it. Greg has floated it many times before on this show. Dan's favorite division winner of all time is the, seven, eight, and one Carolina Panthers of a couple years ago. Love the squad.

Aaron Rogers starts playing like 2017 Flacco. That's terrible. See, that's not, you're not seeing my vision well. Oh, sorry. All right. So there you go.

The 2018 Dalton scale with Andy Dalton Firmly entrenched as the prime meridian of the NFL right where he should be. Ben, Ben's happy. Ben's sitting in a table. Top five, as always.

So life is good for the bruiser, the big bruiser from Pittsburgh. We'll be back on Friday. We being Mark and I will be anchoring things while Greg hopefully has a few drinks over in Huckapoo's or maybe in a garage. I don't think they let you in if you're not going to have at least a couple drinks. Am I wrong? Oh, they let children in. You can hang out of that. Pretty liberal rules at Huffalo.

I think what I just said still stands. Those children are drinking. Yeah. Those children are probably bigger than me. Are you, I know you're not a big man, Greg, but are you insinuating possibly that the people of Tai B are giants? No, it was just a short joke. Oh, that's a good joke. Okay. All right. So, have fun, boys.

We'll be in touch. Dan Hans is signing off for a quiet storm. The mailman, the old boss, and Lindsay Fulton behind the glass. It's Ty B time, baby. Till Friday. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends,

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