NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Top 10 NFL Tight Ends of 2024 and Settling the Kelce-Gronk Debate

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

In a room full of heroes - Dan Hanzus and Gregg Rosenthal get you caught up on news from around the league and then rank the top tight ends in the NFL. The show starts with a discussion about the 2024 NFL schedule release (7:40), the Raiders giving Aidan 'O Connell a shot at QB 1 (11:00), and the Bears giving Caleb Williams the starter role (13:47). After the break, Jon Ledyard joins the show to help rank the best tight ends from the 2024 season (27:58) and the best tight ends since 2010 (55:10).  Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. The Around the NFL podcast. Big Bone Randy is beautiful. From the Chris Wessling podcast studio, it's Around the NFL. Oh, yay, he is. Because beauty comes in all shapes and sizes.

Case and point. I am Dan Hansus. I am joined by Greg Rosenthal. Ladies, two options on the spectrum. I mean, you might want a third option. I don't know. But yes, I think... You're only two options.

We show the various ways men can be beautiful. And you can check that out. Are differing, you know, types on my life. last Instagram post. On our little photo shoot, we took one day when Mark didn't show up for the photos. Striking. The differences in physical build. Sometimes we forget because we work so closely and then you see a photo. By the way, to be clear, Randy is Randy Bullock, the kicker. Everybody knows that. I know, but just to make sure, because we do have someone in the chair also named Randy. What? You talking about Big Funk? Big Funk. I don't want the listeners who are just

joining the show and maybe weren't with us in the 2014 season. It's such a Greg slash Larry David moment. I mean, like, why are you connecting the dot? You know, that's borderline body shaming itself. I'm not connecting any dots. We have a, we have three. I'm sorry. Three people with the microphone right now.

One of them is named Randy. I think it's okay to tell the people about the history of Randy Bullock from the Texas to the Bengals to the Bengals. The womb just feels a little fresh. It was Mother's Day. You go see your mom. like have you been exercising and then you come here and get that one i've got that one we all get that one sometimes you get the the birthday gift that's like gym closed it's like oh yeah okay all right mom i got you um by the way uh there is another there's another body type uh not in the

studio right now uh mark sessler is not with us today but he'll be back on wednesday Leave it there. Coming up on today's show. It's May 13th. And yes, happy Mother's Day to all the moms who listen to this show, which there are dozens. And everyone, I hope you were good to your mom.

Were you good to Deb Rosenthal? Sure. I mean, she's in Massachusetts, so it would have been nice to be there. Tough, yeah. Spoke. Tough sit. Some flowers.

Same stuff. Talked. She had a big week. she had a special art show in Martha's Vineyard if anyone happens to be in Martha's Vineyard it's still going the next three weeks check out at the Vineyard Playhouse

with Debbie Rosenthal retrospective What? I mean, do you ever think Do you ever think your brother Dean, correct? Yeah. A very talented musician. Yeah. Like almost a virtuoso, right? Went to, yeah, classical.

He composed his classical music and went to school for it. And yeah, he's great. More talented than you. Your mother, she's actually has showcases and arguably more talented than you. In the Rosenthal Power rankings, you might be third. That's all just throwing it out there as an option. It's me. I got your back now.

Me versus Tom. Give him something to think about tonight. It lays his head on the pillow. We decided who was more talented when I took him out as like a 12-year-old on the tennis court. So he's fourth. You can take your dubs where you can. Because it's May 13th, we're going to do random stuff like just talk about tight ends today.

We're going to talk about tight ends, tight end paloosa with John Ledyard, who is a really, really smart football guy, who does the audibles and analytics podcast, among other things. And he's going to join us on that conversation. But before we do that, let's hit the news. Just overall, it hit me this morning about 3.34 at the morning.

woke up, staring straight at the ceiling, and said to myself, it's not just another day, it's two day. And maybe that's just another way of saying, attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown of mankind. But, yeah, it was a great day. Oh, my goodness, Jim Harbaugh. Sometimes you're to pinch yourself and remind yourself that Jim Harbaugh is back in the NFL. I love it. I love that he's Justin Herbert's coach.

I love that he's the Chargers coach. Just gives them a certain stature. They just, I've been, I've been wanting out of them. I've been, I've been wishing that they have every year when I predict them to do well. And I know you will again this year. Yeah, now I will. Isn't it, is it fair to say that, and maybe this is just like my perspective on it, that seems a little bit more off-kilter than his last NFL stay?

Like, not deranged or anything, but maybe eight percent. sent more kind of old gym? He's 60 years old. So I think, and we're starting to find this. We're in our 40s. And you see this with older friends or family members. Like, as you get older, I think you become even more of who you are. Like, whatever care you had about trying to hold back the parts of yourself that maybe

weren't as, you know, like just boring or average. And you're just like, he doesn't, he's Jim Harba. He just won the national championship. He's going to lean into all things hard. Okay. I feel like there might be a tipping point in that realm when you're the leader of an organization

but maybe we're not there yet. By the way, just out of curiosity because there is and check it out on YouTube he's behind these like shaded glasses and the eyes are kind of bulging a little bit and he's looking toward the heavens as he's saying these kind of

crazy things. I just figure, let's hear what it sounds like with a little music accompaniment. Just overall. It hit me this morning. about 3.34 in the morning, woke up, staring straight at the ceiling, and said to myself,

it's not just another day. It's two day. And maybe that's just another way of saying. Attack this day with an enthusiasm. I'm known of mankind. But, yeah, it was a great day. I mean, you know what I mean? That what I was expecting,

but I see where you're going here. I'm just saying if you like just look at it from a little bit of a different angle. Yeah. It's a little disturbing that he's running an NFL team now. Like, if I'm a Chargers fan, I'm 90% thrilled about this, 10% terrified. I hear that. There's a little bit of terrified.

Like, he, John Harba, I always thought, has had that little, there's a little bit, a little scared of John Harba. Like, what's really behind that. John is. Jim is like that to another level. The thing I'd be scared about is, yes, the history of guys after all the success that he had at some point they get to one stop and then you look at it in the rear of your mirror

and you're like, oh, that was kind of a bridge too far. That was like the last contract that he got. So I hope that's not the case here. I don't, I disagree with you that John gives me any type of similar vibes if that's what you're saying because John is no doubt intense as well and he could be

very demonstrative when he gets fired up, but there's just something a little different about Jim. John would agree with you on that. I agree. I agree. All right. Let's get to the news.

Finally, yes, the schedule will be released. We can say this not breaking news. It's coming on Wednesday and we will, our schedule this week will reflect that. It's going to be a little different. We'll do a Wednesday schedule release show. We don't know everything, obviously, about the schedule right now. Leaks will are inevitable. That's how it works leading up to Wednesday.

But the one thing we do know is what the NFL announced that the season will kick off with the defending Super Bowl champion chiefs facing the Ravens at Arrowhead on Thursday night. The game will be on NBC. Of course, Gregie, a rematch of the AFC title game, which was played in Baltimore. The chiefs won that game 1710 and then won their third title in five years. They are the, they are the kings of the castle. So it makes sense that they kick off the season last year, a great opener where they got picked off by one point by the Lions.

That is the Cadarius Tony game, as I recall it. as a Patrick Mahomes and I think Catarius Tony fantasy owner. But this game should be similarly exciting to watch. Yeah, I wasn't thrilled just because I like the Ravens. And this is a tough spot, although, you know, lines pulled it off. Why not the Ravens? It's obviously one of the most exciting games on the calendar. I wanted Texans personally.

I just thought that'd be a nice, the new fresh, C.J. Stroud opening night, like new quarterback versus Mahomet. But I guess I'll settle for a rave. Yeah, I'm. My only quibble is the, because that's why I thought Chiefs Lines was perfect last year. Yes. Intra conference or whatever. These mega tilts for that could, you know, decide tiebreakers at the end of the season happening in week one after, you know, nobody even plays in the preseason anymore.

It's a little early for a game this Titanic, but also we're all going to be, you know, chomping at the bit to watch it. So you can't really get after the NFL in that one either. So that will be how the season starts. And then I believe, is it this year? They'll have a Friday night game also. It's the Brazil game. So NBC gets back-to-back games. I think it's Peacock Friday night in Brazil, Eagles, Packers,

and Ravens Sheast start you on Thursday. How about that? How about that? In other news. We also are going to get the international games, get their own little mini show on NFL Network Wednesday morning to announce the international game. So that will be before the rest of the schedule.

How about that? I have an announcement, by the way. That will be. coming up for the international audience so I'll say no more but that's a tease as well in other news you know connected to the schedule

it's all connected in other news fire the trope alert off because the Las Vegas Raiders want you to know yeah go ahead Fonke fired up

Troplanert nice Antonio Pierce with that interim tag freshly ripped off, has a quarterback decision to make, well, I think most of us assume it's Gardner Minchu, who they signed in free agency, who will be the QB.

But Pierce said this week, when was it? Did he say it? I believe over the weekend. Yeah, over the weekend that Aiden O'Connell has, quote, earned the right to have the first snap. Do we have the sound of that? Aidan is already kind of taking a bull by the horn and he's leading away and Minchu's right there doing his

Well, two guys just played, and you saw him play against each other last year, and they went neck to neck. But I'm really excited to see what happens. I think it's going to be a process. We're going to stick to the process. But as I said before, Aiden's earned the right to go out there and get the first snap. I was actually a little surprised by that. I mean, it gave Gardner-Minchu a lot of playing time. It is worth remembering, and Steve Palazolo from the PFF pot I did last week.

Actually, it was the first person I heard to say, like, he wants to see what Aiden O'Connell can do. I was like, well, that's a take I haven't heard. And then you think about it. It's like, I mean, Aiden O'Connell was pretty solid for a rookie. Put it this way. He was a lot better than Bryce Young. He was a lot better than a lot of first round picks we've seen over there. It's in their rookie season.

Like, he was just like a solid player and he's, you know, an interesting, aggressive throw. I think the upside's pretty small. But saying that makes me think, okay, he's got a shot. It's not that crazy. You know, Gardner Man. Not that crazy, but I find it to be unlikely. But, you know, he's playing the game the way he wants to play. By the way, I do like the idea of.

AFC West Antonio Pierce and Jim Harbaugh I feel like they're not going to like each other I see like a nice little feud you think that too funk right he's shaking his head but it's weird Eric Roberts is in the building

he's in the production base here and he's just watching over Randy Chavez's shoulder the back bench it kind of reminds me it's like what Bill Belichick was trying to avoid when Bill Parcells tried to name him the coach of the Jets Right.

That just sounds like another brilliant decision by management here. What's behind this anyway? Well, my baby is due soon. No, I think it's good. I think it makes sense. I've just, it's funny watching, literally have him watching. He has sat in for me a couple times in the past weeks for like ultrasound appointment, stuff like that. So I don't know what's more stressful when me being out of the building and knowing this is happening or me being like within five feet of this and like kind of I don't want a backseat drive, you know?

Right. How about for funk, like the idea of someone not just figuratively looking over your shoulder, but literally looking over your shoulder and telling you whether you're doing things right or wrong. I'm used to it. I've known Eric for like five plus years. Okay. Is he one of those buddies?

Oh, yeah. Judging, commenting. I wouldn't impress that one. I was like, I wouldn't hit that sound. I'm like, okay, for sure. Unbelievable. That's classic ETC.

As how it goes. It's how it goes. In other quarterback news, you know, bully to the bears. They're not playing that game. Caleb Williams is supposed to be the guy who's going to take the franchise

out of permanent mediocrity. They pick him number one overall, and they are not messing around because he is the QB1 on May 13th. Good job, guys. Here's Matt Eber Fluse on that decision. Has he been told that he's the starter going to training camp? You don't have to have that conversation. No conversation.

He's the starter. I mean, look at this Eber Flus right now. I like that look, actually. He looks good. I mean, totally different. The Fluse glowup is really crazy. This news item, I like he said that, and he said, said, you know, what he wants to see out of Caleb Williams,

just don't get ahead of yourself and everything. It made me think for a second. I was like, oh, yeah. Well, of course he's, you know, the starter. But who are even the options? And I was like, it's Tyson-Bajit and Brett Rippin. I wouldn't mind a veteran in there. I wouldn't mind Ryan Tannahill behind Caleb Boy.

Maybe Ryan Tando doesn't want that kind of gig. I don't know. But you're one injury away from Tyson-Bagent, and you don't need a veteran there to maybe help out your guy. Or, as Mark Sessler would say, Brett Rippian. All right. So let's see, let's see, let's see, let's see.

News, this just went on before we, this just went down right before we started. We have a major payday for Antoine Winfield. Four years, $84 million extension, $45 million guaranteed. I want to see how this is structured. You can make it sound any sort of. of way, but it's probably the best contract for a safety ever.

Huge, huge headline, banner headline on NFL.com's landing page. Winfield Jr. becomes NFL's highest paid DB in NFL history. Okay, that's where I want to see. I want to see the details. Is it like an extension off the franchise tag that he had already?

I don't even know. I guess not. That's amazing. I think he probably is the best safety right now to bet on. I think his season last year was so exceptional. It's kind of hard for a safety to repeat that season year after year. The guys that can do that

become Hall of Famers. He's been a little, not up and down, because he's always been a very good player, but he's had two of these seasons out of four where he really popped out and like they would not have made the playoffs if not for Antoine Winfield making these plays, especially in that Panthers game where he stopped

them from going up big and they would have basically been knocked out of the playoffs. So But he has made an incredible amount of good plays. And yeah, considering Derwin James's health, he's probably safety one right now in the NFL. Yeah, the last huge safety contract, I remember is Jamal Adams. I know there's been others.

Minka did too. Adams, for instance, was known more as like a box safety guy that can do some damage. But Winfield is a real all-around type player. And this is interesting. Schaefter pointed out he is the first time. It's the first time of safety. has been named the highest paid

defensive in NFL history. So that, I mean, that's a big deal. And again, the numbers and how it's cooked up, maybe it's not quite that. But also, he's one of those rare guys that was a first team all pro and did not make the Pro Bowl. How does that happen? I don't know.

Why Pro Bowls are overrated. We'll get to that later on our historic look back at the Titan positions. Okay. Yeah, good call. In other news, the Jets they have really improved their roster I've talked about that

I'm trying to keep it in perspective and understand so much things cautious optimism and a lot of the reason for their you know hitting the breaks on just full out optimism is you know the Nathaniel Hackett of it all which is an offensive coordinator that is clearly was out of his depth last year

once Aaron Rogers went out for the season immediately he had a terrible of course one year run with the Denver Broncos didn't even make it the full year as a head coach so his stock is at its lowest and there was this idea like why is he even still the OC

let's hear some Nate Hackett by the way we got to hear some Nate there was this idea like why wouldn't you replace him now Connor Hughes of SNY who used to cover the jets on their beat and but still remains attached to the team in some ways

said that the team did internally Greg look made quote legitimate attempts this offseason to hire someone who would essentially replace Hackett not as a new offensive coordinator but a title above who would run the show my question of that is an easy one is like well then why did they do it?

Right. My name's Nathaniel Hackett. Thanks. It's nice to see you out here. I mean, if they were that serious about it, how can they weren't able to identify someone? And now instead you're just going to go into this year the same as last year and it's a legitimate concern. Well, they have to answer questions about that, too.

That's my biggest takeaway from this, which is that's uncomfortable for him, for Robert Sala, for this to be out there. It's just going to be brought up, like, if they struggle on offense to start the season. The reporting of it's a little odd, though, too, you know, Hughes puts it in a mailbag. Like, gives it the headline, but it's like the fourth question in a May mailbag. And, like, that's a big, if you're reporting something like this, to me is a real story. Report it with your chest. and really make it

shot against the Melbag No, I'm just saying Yeah, a little bit Whoa But he's not like a regular beat reporter anymore either It's I don't know We can't really Who cares about Connor Hughes is like

The deep dive into what he does And how much writing he's doing But maybe this just for him makes sense And to be fair they were gonna try to hire someone above him It sounded like he wouldn't get fired in that scenario But they were they were trying to... Which would appease hypothetically the Rogers And I don't take anything into the fact that

He noted how often Rogers, you know, I guess this is in the pre, you know, in the practices would just completely change plays based on what he was seen and not run Hackett's call. And if that was a sign that the O.C. is not a good O.C. literally every O.C. Aaron Rogers has ever had like was a problem. Didn't ever speak. That's just why Aaron Rogers does. And it's mostly what, you know, has helped Aaron Rogers be great. So I'm not holding that against Nathaniel Haggitt, that part of it. Yeah. Yeah. no, no. Damn. I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

Let's move on. Bill Belichick, you know, finally, I'm not happy with the way Bill is being meant to sing for his supper this off season. But here's one thing I can get behind because this feels like it's in his wheelhouse and doesn't put him in a situation beneath him. Bill Belichick will appear every week on the Manning cast this season. So that is the alternate Monday night football telecast that has both Manning brothers. So I guess he'll, I don't imagine he'll be on the whole show, Greg, but he'll be on a section of the show, maybe one quarter of the show. And that sounds like it's going to make that show even better.

Because if I could say there is one negative to the Manning cast, it's very when it goes guest heavy, which is the nature of the show. If it's a guest I'm not really into, it kind of ruins the flow of it. Because I do like, like I think many people do, you like to hear Peyton and Eli kind of chopping it up and going back and forth about the strategy of the game. With Bill, they'll be able to do that, you would imagine, at a very high level.

I believe the report indicated it would be like first quarter. So he's going to have all this preparation. He's going to be coming on what's happening, but how these teams are looking. I mean, he's also going to get to bed a little earlier that way, you know, maybe if he wants. More ageism.

That's perfect. I'm with you. In this warm cup of milk, so he's in bed by 10 p.m. I'm just saying these games are on late. I call you he's 114 years old. Well, you just want it to be an easier... lift if you're Bill Belichick

can I pick my quarter? Okay, I'll take the first. I'm with you. The part towards just Manning and Eli to me they should just have faith that that's the best part of the show and I've always thought watching this show if they did two guests instead of four, it'd be better. Like just just

pick two guests. We don't need it every quarter. And Peyton is so Did you watch the game on Monday? Payton is so skilled in the media. He does a great job that he's able to kind of show run in real time. But sometimes you could see the gears turning on Peyton that he has to like maneuver certain things as like the host of the show while Eli's just doing his Eli thing like just let Peyton cook too so he

doesn't have to worry about doing that because some of us can do it easily like some of us can be a high level entertainers and steer the show some of us struggle a little with it that's that's just the way it is Greg tugboat takes the show where it needs to go you know we've all improved though you know some from they're now entering year three I'm with you and I like I like what about my Barry Harowitz patting myself on the back monologue there. I'm thinking about myself too that all of us when I've listened

to that first season of shows we all got better. Oh yeah. Reps help and everything in life. Real quick, Mike McCarthy, Cowboys head coach, Zeke Elliott is back in the building and there's this horrifying thought of Zeke Elliott and all the pop the hood stats around Zeke are horrific.

That he's a good goal lineback perhaps still, or a competent one, but is maybe the slowest running back in the league or high up on that list. He can't possibly be their starter in 2024. Well, Mike says probably not. You know, I don't think that's fair. I mean, what do you mean? I mean, the guy carried the ball more than anybody in history of football in the first couple years. You know, that's not going to be his role. You know, we're running back by committee, you know, but I think he'll definitely play at the level that he's played. I know my time here. I anticipate that. I don't see, you know, any drop off in the way he moves, he's in good shape.

All right, so Mike's going to say that in May, but he's obviously a much lesser player at this point, Zeke. And I feel like this is a team. They're going to add somebody. Somebody's going to shake free or they're going to make a move. It just feels like that depth chart's not done. Yeah, I'm doing projected starters for NFL.com. First one's up, AFC East.

And, yeah, looking at that, Cowboys, it's like Rico Dowdell or Zeke or Deuce Vaughn. they'll probably add someone late in camp. You know what I found, though, looking this up, looking at Zeke's numbers, he was the leading receiver, by receptions, at least, for the 2023 New England Patriots.

If you want to know why that offense, that's one way to zero in. That's horrifying. It's pretty rough. Might have to have you say that stat again with this scary Jim Harbaugh music under you. All right. Quick hitters, Patriots, Zeeke's former team

hire Elliot Wolf is their personnel chief we talked about that last week that it was coming and now it is a deal the Chargers signed pass rusher Bud Dupree Zay Jones the wide receiver

heads to the Cardinals oh your boy Greg Washington's second round pick Johnny Newton needs yet another foot surgery It's explaining why he fell in the draft and remember you try to bury that info to win a sandwich prop

I wasn't intentional I said does he have any medical red flags and he was like no no no now he's having another I mean, I hope he keeps the foot. I mean, at this point, another surgery? It's not what you want. Right off the bat.

And finally, sad news. Former Chargers general manager, A.J. Smith passed away over the weekend. And A.J. Smith, Greg, was a very notable figure in Chargers history. He was there during, in fact, he's the winningest GM in Chargers history. He kind of was the architect. of those great early, you know, aughts, chargers teams and also never got over the hump in the playoffs, obviously,

but built some really damn good rosters in his time there. He's one of those guys that I think about if we had a podcast then, he would have been a sneaky, huge figure in it because those were the best teams year after you had the 14 and 2 season where it was one of the best regular season teams I've ever seen

that lost in the playoffs of the Patriots And then they fire Marty Schottenheimer after a 14 and two season. And AJ Smith and Marty Schottenheimer had these kind of knock down, dragout stuff where impressors, A.J. Smith was really cutting to his team, to his coaches, to the reporters. And he was that dude. And he also stared down the Manning family, made Eli Manning hold up the Chargers jersey. And while that was happening live, this is pre-Twitter. Like, we didn't really know how that was going to go.

And he didn't totally know either. He had a good feeling that it's like they're going to blink and they're going to give us what we want. And he got Philip Rivers. And yeah, they were always good. The North Turner ones with him never quite got over with hump. They were always like a nine and seven team. But he built up some superpowers and was a weirdly huge figure in the NFL for like six,

seven years. So R. A.J. Smith. Yeah, they lost that the crushing Patriots game with all that bad blood. I, as a Jets fan, the Jets knocked off two big time Chargers teams where they were the underdog in both years. times in San Diego and that was obviously just kind of the story of those teams filled with talent big time regular seasons and then could never get over the hump but the one time they

overachieve they get to the conference finals and there it's philip rivers with the torn ACL and playing on a torn ACL with Danny and Tomlinson kind of moping on the bench come on also hurt but that's why he was moping don't mope right through it anyway a j Smith passes away at the age of 75 rest in peace. Let's take a break. And when we come back, it's John Ledyard time. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else.

It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture.

If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Matt Jones. I'm Drew Franklin, and this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel?

That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the I Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL.

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Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Flurs it out in the flat, caught Kelsey, 45 across midfield, hurdles a defender. You can get high for this one. Gertz Cato took it away. Go underneath, and this is caught by the Joker. Carries a defender on his back. Is Jackson points.

Thrus it downfield, Andrews got three. Remarck couldn't give it to him, but he caught it anyway. What a catch by Andrews. Put two seconds back on the clock. There he is, the rookie LaPorta. Yes, it was a big year. 2003 for the tight end. And now we're going to talk about it, both the current class and a little ATN history lesson going back in the last 13 years or so.

And to help us along on that ride is a man who knows his ball. He is a host on the audibles and analytics pod. You could find them all over the place, in fact. John Ledyard, welcome to around the NFL. Hey, guys. It's an honor to be with you guys. I'm excited to talk some tight ends with you all. How did it feel when Greg Rosenthal, the man who once built Roto World, brick by brick,

with his bare hands, his calloused hands, connected with you randomly and said, do you want to talk about tight ends in a day? Well, I didn't have it on my bingo card, but I was greatly honored. Greg and I have followed each other for a while. And so it was exciting when he jumped in. It was like, hey, would you like to jump on this pond? And I was like, you guys have probably more fun than anybody else in the NFL space. I feel like on a podcast.

You're definitely in the top five. of the fun rankings. And so I was like, man, opportunity to talk ball with those guys is a dream come true. So I'm excited. I like it. And you mentioned, yeah, rankings. So that's, it's the off season. I like a little rankings. We're going to do, we're going to do the time. Take a little snapshot. We might revisit this various times in the off season. It's fun to kind of take a snapshot of a position, talk about where they're at now. And then also, yeah, we're going to look back and try to decide who are the best tight ends of the since 2010. And I'm thinking, who knows ball? And I've been listening to the Audibles and Analytics

podcast. I'm a relatively recent convert during draft season a little late later in the playoff season. And you and Ollie Connolly I should say do a great job so everyone should check out John's substack. All right. And

I also felt bad because I gave him a lot of like homework kind of. It was like a little last minute. We're a little last minute. I try not to give we do don't want to give homeworks but he seemed like of all the people and this is meant as a compliment that wouldn't feel like maybe it was a huge burden last minute to all of a sudden conjure up multiple sets of rankings.

I thought John would be a guy. Be honest, John. Is that how you feel about it? He would be embracing. He read it extremely well. I may or may not do this in my spare time. So I may or may not have been prepared. But, you know, while John is perhaps an exception,

I just want everyone to know out there that has a podcast, which is most of America and beyond. When you have someone on as a guest, don't try not to give them a homework assignment depends depends depends what kind of show if you can avoid it like a week's notice at least not 24 hours i mean just take it easy okay they're coming on your show that should be enough let's get into it john uh you came up of the list let's start with the modern day the current the 2023 into now 24 tight end class we each submitted to our production team our top 10 and then i believe uh funk and even

ATP did their wizardry and took those three options or those three lists and made it into one Mondo list. Right. So we do not know the results of these rankings. Let's put them up. We do not see them. Yeah. I see, I see them back in the control room. We need to see them. All right. Fly them up. All right. So this is what this is what the interesting. All right. So here we go. I'll go 10 to 1 here. Dalton Kincaid, not of my top 10, came in at number 10. Evan Ingram of the Jaguars, number nine, Dallas Goddert, number eight, David Anjoku, my guy, number seven, T.J. Hawkinson, number six, Trey McBride of the cards, number five. This is what I'm talking about. This is all these young guys, new on the scene. Number four, Sam Laporta of the Lions. Number three, Mark Andrews of the Ravens. Number two, George Kittle of the Niners. And of course, number one, Travis Kelsey of the Chiefs. All right, let's start. John, um, do you? you have, when we look at our combined list here, do you have a name that kind of does not jive overall that you had somebody higher or lower? Let's start that way. I don't have any big

gripes with this list. Honestly, it's not too far off from mine. The only player in this 10 that I didn't have in mine was Evan Engram and he was 11 for me just outside. So very strongly consider him. I also kind of split mine up into tears a little bit. So when you get past the first six guys to me, I think there's about six or seven guys after that that I would say you could put them in any order and I would understand your reasoning depending on the scheme that you're looking at that fit with a certain quarterback or coordinator offensive system. You could prioritize different things at that position, different skill set, traits you value. So it really does become after I think the first six or so, I think it does become almost like a dealer's choice. I mean, almost the whole list.

I thought it was hard to decide who is sort of atop the tight end mountain right now. Let's start there, because our top three is Kelsey, Kittle, Andrews. I had Kittle first. I feel like George Kittle was the best tight end in the league last year. I think I'm always going to lean a little bit to a guy who's that dynamic as a blocker. He hasn't stayed as healthy and explosive as you would want, but he's still much younger than Travis Kelsey. And he was healthy and mostly explosive last year.

So I'm guessing the two of you both had Kelsey number one. I think I had Kelsey a few spots lower because I was thinking about this year and I expect that decline to come and then as I did the process and went into it where I was like I can't doubt this guy it's ridiculous to put him any lower than two at least

I had Kelsey at number one but I could see why you went down that road Kelsey wasn't quite as good as he was the previous season where I think he was head and shoulders the best tight end in the league and Kittl if you look at some of the advanced numbers at PFF I'll cite them

first of all he was their height highest graded tight end by quite a margin over Travis Kelsey, who was second. And then he had some really nice numbers. Kittle had 29 gains of 15 plus yards, which is tied for first among all tight ends. Uh, he, he led all tight ends and deep receiving yards. He averaged 10 yards depth per target, 7.3 yards per after the catch gained 279 yards after contact John. And of course, everyone knows Kittle is the complete tight end and is a boss. as a blocker as well. So for a guy that sometimes can get overlooked in certain conversations, he had a great season playing 568 snaps. I thought the first three guys, which you've mentioned

two of them, Kelsey and Kittle. And then for me, it was Sam Leporto was the third. And we'll talk about him. And those three were in a tier together for me at the top. And the reason why it was difficult to rank them. And I did rank Travis Kelsey first, as you mentioned, Greg, was that the playoffs. Honestly, that was the big part of it. I don't think in the regular season that Travis Kelsey was as transcendent as he normally is. I think he was fine. He was very good. But I don't think you were like, wow, this guy is just on a historic pace still at his age,

all this kind of stuff. And then he goes into the postseason, 32 catches on 38 targets, 35 yards, three touchdowns and four playoff games. To me, just the stage that he was in, the spotlight that was on him, considering the fact that they didn't have a lot of other weaponry, like that to me took it to another level when you consider like the role he played and actually winning a championship this past year now we're projecting ahead and you're right Greg at some point that is good that decline is going to continue to come for Kelsey and perhaps

that was his last hurrah and it goes downhill from here but with Kittle who I think is the most complete tight end in the NFL and probably the one if we were just saying I'm starting a neutral team and I want to pick a guy for this season like just to be on that team and the situation is just we don't know yet because all all question marks a quarterback play car he'd probably be the guy you pick because he can pretty much do anything and also you get the splash play element he's he's probably the best downfield tight end in the league all of that combined makes him a very enticing target to pick even to be number one but i just kept coming back to okay kelsey's hardly missed any games in his entire career and kittle has has had more nagging

degrees that he's dealt with and worked through and perhaps that all changes this year but that gave kelsey a slight edge to me but very close between those two guys and even laporta being in that mix for me I had a hard time splitting up those guys thinking about 24 as the kind of the barometer by which we're saying

we want these guys on our team. It's why it's good to have three of us combining on these because now you've kind of talk, you guys have talked me into it,

giving anyone else the top of the mountain other than Travis Kelsey and giving it to a guy who in Kittle, now thinking about it, had a total of four catches in those last two games.

He wasn't a huge part of that offense. Kelsey had three times the production you're right in the playoffs. So if you're trying to pick between the two, even though he's a little more dynamic, kiddle, it's hard to go against him. The Super Bowl was on yesterday,

and I kind of let Walker watch. It's like, I won't let you watch TV. You say let or forced to walk? Well, no, I'm not forcing. He's dying, but, you know, on the weekends, okay, you can watch some sports. You don't watch TV, but you're going to have sports on. So he's watching the Super Bowl.

And yeah, you're reminded that it's like, it's Rashie Rice or Kelsey on all the big plays, which, you know, the situation there in now, it reminds you how important. and Rice was to them. And otherwise, it's like Richie James on clear-out routes and they won a Super Bowl that way. Not like dominating, you know, you kind of forget they didn't score the first 25 minutes of that Super Bowl.

They got it done. I do want to hear from you why you had Leporta that high. I still put Andrews ahead of him, but Leporta was better as a blocker than probably we would have expected as a rookie. And just his usage was incredible, like how they used him for him to step in and be that good that right away. I had him fourth. So I wasn't too far off, but you had him a whole, whole tier ahead.

I'm curious why. For me, the biggest thing with the port is that I think to already be able to, I'd rather be early than late on a guy like that's that good. I was a huge fan of him coming out of college, too. He was my number two tight end behind Kincaid in the class. I thought he was the real deal. And it was easily a top 30 player in the class. And the fact that he was able to go into that situation in Detroit,

where they obviously have a bunch of targets to earn the trust of the staff enough from camp. You could tell right away, they're like, oh, not only are we going to play this guy, his role isn't going to be siloed. He's going to play in line 47% of the time. 26% of the time will play out wide for us. We'll match him up against corners and he will beat them off the line of scrimmage and at the top of the route 1v1. He'll be in the slot 26% of the time. Give him a two-way go. He can function a slot receiver for us. So just the fact that he can do everything at the position at his age with such limited experience, I mean, almost 900 yards and 10 touchdowns last year in the regular season, I already think he's the best

tight end in the league at the top of his route. When we just talk about who creates max separation at the top of the route with footwork quickness, explosiveness out of the break. To me, that's the port. I think it was a big calling card for him in college too. They literally took what he did at Iowa and they said, it's going to be an exact carbon copy what we're going to ask you to do in the NFL only against way better competition. And he was able to do that as a rookie.

I just think that's incredibly rare. I think he has a very special player. Also 14 of 22 on contested catch situations last time. and he forced 13 mistackles. So really where are the weaknesses with LaPorter is where I think I kind of like had a hard time ranking him lower than this. Him Leporta and Goff in play action

was absolute death to defenses last year. I had him as four. I put Mark Andrews just ahead and he's kind of a guy that maybe gets overlooked just because he missed the end of the last season with an injury. He's been banged up at times. But a good data point here. uh, Andrews generated the second highest pass rating when targeted among tight ends

135.1 when Lamar was targeting him last year before he went down. Here's a little good Ravens nug for you, Gregie. All right. The only person that had a higher passerating target, uh, was at 141.2, Isaiah likely of the Ravens. So that works. He's on my long list. Yeah. We'll get to some of the guys that didn't make the 10 because I do think at least one name is

very interesting to talk about, but likely when I made my long list. out he was like top 15 he's he's pretty dynamic i do want to get to tray mcbride being so high i thought i was going to be the highest on him uh but apparently we all were if he just about if if he ended up fifth he is one of those guys thinking about him versus but kyle pitts who didn't make the list and we can get to kyle pitts but like he made my list by the way he he he was 11 on my oh really he was just off of my he was just off of my okay so that's how kinkade slip down there because I had Cicade quite high. I think Cicade's movement is just

crazy and he's set to have a big season and part of his production last year being a little lower I think was just him getting used to the league and by the end of the season you can just see he is a special, special mover. I get why you had him T-E-1 in a great class but McBride like if you

just watched Trey McBride's tape from last season and you told me he was taken in the top 20 picks in the NFL draft was like I would believe that like to me he does everything he is a special ball winner he's good after the catch like he's tough there's kind of nothing I don't see and he just kept

backing it up week after week and he started to show it a little bit late in his rookie year too that like I don't have that many more questions to me he's sort of at that level that now I expect him to be a pro bowl caliber player for the next some odd years John disappears yeah for me

yeah I know I actually have a port of port okay there we go that's how it happened I'm a huge sorry I had McBride 4th I'm a huge fan of McBride I mean so this was the most interesting stat one of the most interesting stats that I found his yards per route run last year he was first amongst all tight ends over two points over two yards per route run last year for McBride and better than Lapora better than

Kelsey better than Kettle all these guys here about how great their seasons were and with McBride I just kept coming back to man like what is the weakness was I watched him and remember he had that rookie year that was so nondescript and everything was a mess obviously and he did half this season without great quarterback play here. And Kyler comes in and it gets a little bit better, I think. But I mean, to be the ball winning that you talked about is a really valuable thing at this position, I think. Tight ends are often working middle of the field, down seams. Windows on them are usually closing pretty quickly with guys working top down on them. And so to be able to make catches with your back to defenders, I think, is really important. You often have

somebody crowding your space as you're making catches at this position. So love that. Force 12 miss tackles. He's not like super elusive in space or anything like that, but just the fact that he's so tough, he's just very physical player. You know, when I watched him, I said, power forward type of player. He doesn't have this elite on ground athleticism kind of, but when you watch him, you just think power forward and everything that he does. He bulldozes people. He knocks people back. His physicality at the top of the route, you know, where Leporta kind of sinks and cuts and accelerates and is so smooth, and you can see the athleticism. McBride just like knocks guys out of his path. It's subtle, though. He doesn't mean, nobody gets called for OPI consistently in the

NFL, but he's just a very physical player. You were not going to set the tone on him. Good blocker as well. He can do a lot of different stuff, too. I think that's one of the being to be one of the more valuable things when we talk about this position. How many guys can do a lot of different stuff? McBride can block in line. He can block on the move, which he does frequently for them. And on the perimeter as well, a great stock blocker. And so they trust him a lot, I think. And that's the big thing with him and LaPorta, to be really young and to be trusted as much as they are, to do as many different things as they are, is just not very common in today's NFL. So that's why I have them both so high up the list. He also had like 30 straight minutes of them during a in-season hard knocks, I believe it was, or all or nothing.

I don't even remember at this point that literally no one on earth watched other than me, a solid 30-minute chunk in one episode. And I think I'm just like glad that that, I feel like now that paid off for me. That's good. That's important. And I'm glad it enriched you and your analysis. Can we talk a little Dave and Joku? Because your guy, he's my guy. I always believed in him. And it was a little bit of a slow train to get where it needed to be. But I really thought it happened last year, especially when Flacco got involved. He set career highs in targets, catches, touchdowns. He led all tight ends, John, in mistackles forced. Also in explosive gains. This was a guy. who was an absolute terror. I could just picture it. I happen against my team, the Jets, but happened against a lot of teams this year where Injoku all of a sudden is streaking over the middle

like a rampaging Mustang. It's hard to bring down. I think he could even be better if he ever gets truly consistent quarterback play. Your thoughts on Anjoko, Injoko. Injoku, Injoku, for me, was seventh. But I am a huge fan of his game. He was my number one tight end in the draft

when he came out that year. Remember, that was OJ. Howard, Evan Ingram, there was a lot of guys in that class. And for him, like, the biggest thing I thought when I watched him was that just the post-catchability, which honestly, we've kind of seen a little bit of over the course of his career, but this was the first year where it felt like it really all came together for him. Man, I mean, just you speak about intangibles, and I think that matters a ton. Like, let's, I mean, Enjoku has those, right?

One of the toughest dudes in the league, physical, he's selfless, his teammates love him. Remember, when we thought his freaking face burned off and he was playing. the next week, John. Yeah, dude. His face, like, just put the helmet on. He's one of those dudes that he will talk to talk and walk to walk. And I, I remember when early in his career, we were like, maybe they'll trade him. Like, it doesn't seem like it's working out there. And they were like, no chance we're trading this guy. Like, we know it's going to come around. And he's still only 27. I think that's just an insane part of all this. When you could truck safeties with no eyelashes, like that's, that's different. Like you're built different. Let's put

the list back up there, Eric. Uh, you're right. Some of these guys are sneaky young. Like in Joko, you just mentioned. I couldn't believe T.J. Hawkinson, who I think comes in at number six. Let's see the list, Eric. He's still just 26 years old. It feels like T.J. Hawkinson's been in the league forever.

He's coming off a torn ACL. That's such a bummer because he was, he had found a perfect place in that offense. And hopefully he's able to come back as the same T.J. Yeah. And John made a good. He asked me, and this is why you know he's a pro. He's like, if we're talking about, yeah, John, thank you for 2020. He's like, are we holding it against

Hawkinson that he's coming off of a torn ACL? Because he might not be even ready for the start. It's not personal. Don't hold it against him. So I put him right in the middle. Goddard's been kind of slumping lately. And then looking at Engram. He missed my top ten, by the way.

Yeah. He just didn't look like the same guy. And you do worry about the miles that he's put on him. But if we had done this exercise last year, it would have been in my top four. So I had a hard time putting him much lower. I think I had him eight or nine. I'm guessing John, you know,

had him somewhere in that ballpark because Dan didn't... Item five, actually. I got a one thought ahead of Andrews. This is probably my most controversial ranking, I guess. Well, no, that's where he was for me initially. And then I just kept sliding him down thinking, like, he just didn't quite look like the same guy a year ago.

But tell me if I'm wrong. Well, both these guys have that. The Goddard and Andrews conversation is both like, are they who they were last year? Or are they who they've been in the past? I think is the conversation with both them moving forward. I believe in Goddard, maybe a little bit more because it goes back to how much does your team,

trust you how much does your team how many different things does your team ask of you how important you are to your team's success and i think you saw it a lot right that eagle's offense really struggled when goddor wasn't in there and it's not so much about like oh he wasn't around to literally catch the football and produce like in that way it's because of how much he gives that offense and what he's able to do as a player just in part of being a big part of their rPO game their screen game as a blocker what they do with him on the move as a blocker a very hard player to find a facsimile for he's a second best blocker on this list, I think, other than Kittle and Jokey's playing that conversation, too.

So he's used, he's formed himself into an all-around player. I really don't love Phil, not that the way Philly uses him is bad. I think they use him in ways that are helpful to their offense, but not as helpful to Dallas Goddard as they could, whereas Andrews is like the feature piece, I think, in Baltimore. To me, with Goddard, the A-DOT is just plummeting. Like, can we get him targets down the field? Can we, I mean, he has done this stuff in his career. We know he can be this player.

I think a big reason for what, if Philly is going to go back up on offense, if they are going to climb the rankings again and truly be one of the most feared offenses in the NFL again, I think they have to expand their usage of Goddard again. It's, it just became so narrow of a usage for him. And I think he's just capable of a lot more. So I did have him five and Andrews six. That was a very close one. They're in the same tier for me. Andrews, I think, is still very good. What is great about his game, I think last year even when he played, he was 80% of the time in the slot. So he's kind of. like he's become like a big slot receiver which he's always spent a good amount of time in there but is he much of an inline guy at all anymore his a dot was just way down last year in that offense and so does that system know how to use him as well as another question with him i think he had some ugly drops it wasn't his best season as a blocker he's never been the biggest playmaker with the ball in his hands but i think everything about his game is still like pretty good i think and he's only 272 which is crazy so who bounces back out of those two is probably going to determine which ones on the top five next year when we do this. Right. You think the Eagles going back to Goddard is such a

great situation for him, but you said it right. And actually, Jalen Hertz might not be like the best quarterback for him because Jalen Hertz's best attribute is on the outside. Like, he's just not as consistent working in the middle of the field. He's great at, you know, throwing the go balls and they build the offense around. So maybe that hasn't helped him. Vice versa, like the flip side of that is Evan Ingram had 143 targets last year. I was like, I can't believe that. I'm glad Evan Ingram and found the role that like he deserves to have because I always thought he had something to him and the Jaguarts have gotten that out of him.

Before we move on to... By the way, check out the splits too because Ingram was very quiet in the first half even if he's getting targeted. He was a really good player for them and productive. He's great at what he does, which is just those drag routes and everything. Is Kyle Pitts...

Are we sure he's good? I guess I'm the only person that didn't put him in the top 10. He's someone I've actually... I have watched a lot of them and I just don't think he moves the same. way as we that he did coming out of college or even his rookie year and and I know the quarterbacks have been bad and that's a big part of it but I look at Drake London and I think okay Drake London's really underrated if he was in a different situation he'd be like a top 10

wide receiver and I don't know watching week after week I don't I don't know if I've seen that totally out of pits there's always a lot of miscommunications with pits which is tough to know like is that his fault of the quarterbacks but when it's happening so much you kind of think it's him. So he was my number 11 player. I was like these other guys have been a little more consistent and I don't totally see like the special athleticism anymore that I've expected

probably because he's playing through injuries. What do you think, John? Yeah, I had in Joku 7, Hawkinson, 8, Kincade 9, and then Pitts 10 and you're completely right about Pitts. Like he wasn't a better player than Evan Ingram last year. So you could put Jake Ferguson over him. You could put him further down the list. Colcomette was close for me.

Fryeuth is in that mix. Guys that didn't make it. Matt Schultz. I mean, there were a lot of guys that were better than him last year. I just think about his age. I think about the offense he was in. And I just wasn't a big fan of a lot of the usage for him. And I think he basically just has to be like this field stretcher. Well, what else can he do for your team?

Like I think he can do more things for your team. All that said, there's no doubt. Cal Pitts, and I don't think we talked about this enough. Cow pitts has not played well enough in the NFL, frankly. Like there's no question about it. Like when it comes to route running, when it comes to mental mistakes, when it comes to making tough catches, look at his contested catch rates and then watch the tape and you'll see a lot of those concerns show up. So this is very much a 2024. Who am I taking?

Like if I need somebody, I still want to bet on the upside around this range just because I think the upside is a little more limited as you get further down the list. But there's no doubt that this is a critical year for Cow Pits, obviously for payment long term, all of those kind of things. He goes into a pivotal fourth season. But this is it for him. I mean, he's got to put it all together. There's still unbelievable traits here. We've seen the flashes. A thousand yards as a rookie. Like this guy is capable of it. It just has it happened

consistently. We were in London for one of the high moments of his career. He lit up the Jets that game. He went like seven for 120 or something. So yeah, he's got it a thousand yard season on his resume and maybe some of those miscommunications. He's had a lot of quarterbacks, a lot of bad quarterbacks.

I think this is a perfect setup for him. He might only get Kirk Cousins for one year because of their absurd roster strategy. But give me a consistent quarterback that puts it on the numbers. How many times you see Kyle Pitts, you know, jackknifing trying to reach behind his body on throws over his career so far. I'm really excited by his upside. And we're going to take a break and then quickly talk a little more historical in the last 15 years or so. But I want to let everyone know that I put Tayson Hill at number nine. And whoa. That doesn't count because he's not a real tight end. But

if you can give me 300 receiving yards and 400 rushing yards and six touchdowns and you could throw a nice spiral, you can find the back 10 of the back half of the back 10 of me for me. That's bold. Every time. That is bold. I got to say last year was the year that I did start thinking, okay, Taysam Hill actually is underrated. He actually was very helpful to their winning and was making pretty consistent plays.

I got you, Tason. Top 10 is a little rich for me, but I got you, States fans. Pretty unique. All right. Let's take a break and we'll be right back. what's up everybody daniel jeremiah here and i'm bucky brooks on move the sticks we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies coaching trends and how front offices construct winning rosters every week we study the tape talk to decision makers and share the insights you won't find anywhere else is the kind of conversation that connects the dots from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow we break down the draft analyze matchups and a evaluate how teams put it all together on game day plus we dig in the coaching strategies roster construction and the trends that shape the league year after year whether you're a die

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help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL fantasy football podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. All right, we are back just for fun. This is Greg's idea of fun. And I was like, yeah, let's go for a ride.

Let's go through the mind of Greg. And with John along for the ride, he said, you know, it's even more from the talking tight ends. let's crank back the clock and let's talk about our favorite and the best tight end since 2010, which is somewhat arbitrary. I thought it was a little like he just wants to talk about

gronk. And I thought to myself, here's my logic. Let me just say my logic here's a big even number. So I know that a big part of this conversation for Greg now is so he could say gronks better than Travis Kelsey. Yes. So here's what I did. I, even if I don't

totally believe it, put Travis Kelsey one over Grong and my hope. My hope is that John who we don't know each other prior to this conversation. He's probably going to put Kronk number one. But if he doesn't, if he put Travis Kelsey number one, that's two to one. That means Kelsey beats Grong and the entire idea of the exercise turns and collapses in on itself on Gregy in a big spot. So without further ado, the top. It also means I'm not allowing anyone else to vote next time. The top 10 tight end since 2010. Come on, Travis. Number one, give it to me. Give me what I need because we need it to stick it to Gregie in a big spot. It sounds like you already know the end. I don't know.

Let's see it. Oh, yes. Kelsey. Oh, big time. What a win. Oh, that's why I get up in the morning. That's why I love this job. Look, big fungus thrown his arms up in the air too. This is preposterous. This is all we have for like, wins and losses. What is it that Jim Harbaugh said at the top of the show? Be a gracious loser. It's not. Today. It's two day. What was it? Number 10. Mark Andrews. Number nine, Vernon Davis. Number eight, Zach Ertz. Number seven, Antonio Gates. Number six, Greg Olson. Yes, that Greg Olson. It was quite a fine tight end before his feet turned on him. Jimmy Graham at number five. Jason Whiton at number four. Uh, George Kittle at number three. Rob

Gronkowski, Gronk himself, number two. And Kelsey, the great Travis Kelsey comes in at number one. Let us, Greg, before you can, because you deserve the opportunity, because now that this segment is imploded on itself,

in a big spot for you, I'm going to give you the floor. I'm going to move out of the way, but first I want to hear from our guest. I respect your, both your opinions. Why John said, Travis over Rob. Go ahead.

John. Yeah, Greg's probably regretting. having me on the show and I apologize Greg I had to do this so this actually hurt me too because I covered drunk in Tampa Bay for a couple years and just an absolute joy as a player as everything to be able to cover and honestly

if you this is obviously a great conversation and probably discourse that'll happen for years these guys are obviously in the same tier there's no wrong ranking here in my opinion oh Greg might disagree but the big thing for me I think is when you look at games played there's an edge with Kelsey I think even though he is

still he still has when you look at the starts of their career, Kelsey didn't even really play his first year. I think so you go back to that. He's like a season. He's a season up just to put the stats. He basically is 16 games up on Gronk now going in. And Gronk started at age 21.

Kelsey's career didn't really start to age 25, which is interesting. Right. And I think Kelsey's still adding to that. Plus, just really always being healthy is a big part of this ranking. Now, if you ask, it's kind of like the kiddle Kelsey debate, honestly, in a little ways. Like if you're just saying, both these guys are the beginning of the career, I'm starting a neutral franchise.

Who do I want to build my offense around? I think there's definitely a real strong argument for Gronkowski because of how good he was as a blocker. You could play Gronk and you could do this with Kelsey, too, to a degree. You could play him as an X like by himself. You could put him on the backside of three by ones on the single receiver's side. And he was like, in his heyday, he was like cash money basically. I mean, that's the reason why they beat the chiefs in that game was exactly that

reason that they could do that. I've just never really seen anybody win the way Kelsey win. Like I've never seen him. He isn't even a great athlete anymore and he's open all the time. How? Like how is he? He knows everything that's happening around him all the time. I obviously has carte blanche to kind of do what he wants as a route runner, which is incredible to watch. But I just don't know how anybody who moves like the way he does is getting open to the degree that he is at his age and staying healthy all the time. It's just watching him is remarkable to me because I feel like, okay, like you,

You should be able to knock him around. Like, he's not that fit. You should be able to, like, stay in his hip pocket. He can't, he's not that explosive. Like, you look at his contested catch numbers, and it's like, he does a good job, but he's also hardly ever in contested catch situations. So you just, like, it doesn't make any sense. And then you watch him in every single game.

He's open all the time, all over the field at all levels. When they needed him to be the vertical guy last year, because they had absolutely nothing. He goes out and he makes plays down the field. I'm just like, I don't even understand. The production is the counting numbers are a little bit on his side. like when you look at yards and things like that, but he's got the game's advantage there too a little bit since 2010.

So it's a fascinating discussion. I've bounced around throughout my lifetime uncovering these guys and watching them play. But I think that there really is no wrong answer on it, but I just had to go with Kelsey because of a couple of those factors. I get it. Everything that you said is right on when it's talking about why Kelsey is so great. And he's kind of a genius in terms of a football genius

in terms of route running. and he gets to play with another one in Mahomes. And that's awesome. Like, you think about players that never got that chance. Like, the fact Randy Moss gets to play with Tom Brady at that point in both of their careers, you got to see greatness elevate each other. And Kelsey has done that.

And the argument to me is a little bit compiler versus peak, but I have to give it to Kelsey that his peaks now are also pretty awesome. So it truly is an argument where two or three years ago, I really didn't think it was an argument. The reason I feel strongly it's gronk is I'm going to take the guy who if it's close enough is better at their respective peaks. They're both four-time first team all pro. So they've been literally the best tight-in league both four times. But there's two parts where gronk is just

clearly better. And that's explosive plays, including touchdowns and blocking. Like those are two massive components of playing the tight-end position. And it took me looking at this. to remember, Rob Grunkowski averaged, like, 15 yards per catch for his career. Like, that is, that is just outrageous. And he still has Kelsey by a good margin in terms of touchdowns, in terms of if you're just like playing like fantasy points, just like, you know, just fantasy points. Like, he'd even have Kelsey per game over that.

And that's because of all the touchdown. So when I think about, like, what makes a tight end special, like scoring, explosive plays. And I do think the explosive plays gets a little lost. and the Grong conversation. To average 15 yards per catch, the tight end, I'm looking at all these lists, and I sorted it on pro football reference.

I mean, there's no other tight end that's even remotely in the ballpark. Everyone's two yards per catch, like, behind Gronk, and then you add the touchdowns. And then most importantly, I think you add the blocking where at his peak, and he kept it going pretty well to the end of his career, they could just do so many things because of the way he blocked.

Not only did he do a great job block, but they just could call plays in such a different way that that was almost impossible to defend. And that was because of Gronk. And I think he does have that in a way that that's better than Kelsey at his peak. But I'm not going to kill you for going Kelsey at this point. I think it's an argument. It's not a good one. By here's. Yeah. Here's here it is to me. Like I you can't, you can't say anything negative about Gronk. Maybe his durability and there's a reason why he kind of left the game in 2019 because he got so beat up over the years. He came into the league with the back surgery. Obviously it led to the Patriots, I think being able to get

him in the first place where they did, whereas Kelsey has been just an Ironman for that team. And the things that's more like what do I, what kind of excites me a little bit more as a football fan, Kelsey's cerebral nature is so incredible. And John, I'll point to two instances in the last couple of years. One is one of the plays, many plays that Cadarius Tony run for the team last year, that long play against the bills where he catches the pass and then in stride throws a perfect ball across the field to complete an unlikely touchdown that, you know, would have swung that game and it gets called back as Tony lined up off sides. And everyone was like, can you believe that Travis Kelsey would do that? And then after the game, everybody's like,

no, Kelsey does that stuff all the time at practice. Like he just sees the field in a way that other people don't. And then he has this incredible ability to make place because he's just so naturally athletically gifted. The other play I'll point to is the 13 seconds game, the divisional round playoffs, also obviously against the bills. And on that, that amazing sequence where they were able to tie the game, it's Kelsey who kind of calls out or sets up the play on the first Tyreek Hill game and then says to Mo Holmes, all this happening in real time, hey, if they stay in that same defense, look for me because I'm going to have a scene. And sure enough, he gets hit for the huge pass game.

So he kind of set up both those plays and allowed them to escape and win that game. So those are just two examples. And while I'm not going to get on gronk, because everybody knows gronk's not a rocket scientist, although I know he leans into the gronkness of it all. Just Kelsey, I think separates himself with his ability to be like his brother. It did on the offensive line physically gifted, but also mentally a superstar. Well, it's also absolutely crazy that just when you talk, we look at the production for both these two guys, there's so many things to just be like jaw on the floor about. But Kelsey has since

2010 almost, almost 300 more catches than Rom Grankowski now. And Grongowski still has 18 more touchdowns than him, which speaks to Grace point. Also speaks to the fact that Andy Reed is just this savant near the goal line. And obviously everybody like Anthony Sherman's and those types of players are getting touchdowns that Kelsey probably would get if he was featured as much as Gronk down there. But I, yeah, it speaks to just like the production that gronk had as a red zone guy and as a big play guy if he just would never had all the injury concerns that he had and now he's over 2,000 yards behind kelsey as well since 2010 like the numbers in the production we would have seen from this guy would have just been off the charts

and it just such a bummer that he ended up hey you know retiring and missing that year and then we got plenty i feel like i well maybe maybe i'm speaking out of turn but i feel like i it could have gone different ways i we could have seen less a gronk i mean the fact that you got five or six great seasons. You think about the last two times he played Travis Kelsey, you know, not for nothing. That AFC championship game, they win it in part by putting Gronk out to the left

and on the game-winning drive. He makes big plays. Kelsey has a quiet game. Then he scores a couple touchdowns in the Super Bowl with the Buccaneers at the very end. So he still did get kind of a nice little Gronk spike at the end of his career, even if you guys are going to put him first. Should we

just zoom through the rest of the list at least? I would say, like, Put that list back up. Yeah, Jimmy Graham had like four. He ends up five on this list. I had him three because he, he just for the... I had him four. For four or five years, he just had absolute monster years.

He was a first team all pro like during Gronks prime a couple times. And it fell off fairly quickly. But we have Kittle third, no problem with that. Witten, who to me was a little bit of a compiler. I don't think... That's not fair, though, because he was what you dream of in a titan. And the guy, a great safety valve slash move the chain guy in a big third down. He did so much for them and had some huge years as well in terms of straight production.

And got a couple first team all pros, too. And then I was happy to see Greg Olson on this list. I sorted by a couple different measures. But on pro football reference, they have something called approximate value, which it's not perfect. But it's trying to be their be all end all. I just wanted an initial list. They had them fourth since 2010 behind Kelsey Gronk and Jimmy Graham. And that just shows the kind of production.

And he was a very intelligent player too. John, I killed Antonio Gates's ranking here because I left him off only because his last kind of big time year was 2010. And then he hung around and had the issues obviously health down the line. But if he's still finished seventh, you must have had him high up as well. I had him. Yeah, what did I have him? Sixth, I think was on my list.

I had, I actually had Graham lower. I had Graham eighth. And so I'll contribute to, I contributed to him being. probably five. It seems like you would have been higher for you guys. Actually, my most controversial, I had Kittle third as well. I had Greg Olson fourth and went in fourth, gate sixth, earth, seventh, and I had Graham, eighth, and Vernon Davis, ninth, and then 10th, I was like,

Mark Andrews, Jared Cook, I don't know, like it's... Jared Cook made the list. Dang. Jared Cook, yeah, he, you know... His production is there, though, on all these lists of yards when I sorted in approximate value, he's top seven or eight, and you're like, dang, Jared Cook's had a nice career. When I sent the list that I refused to just put Jared Cook because who would ever think of him as a top 10 tight end in the last 15 years.

But he had one of the best catches you'll ever see from a tight end in a playoff game against Dallas with the Packers. I just threw Darren Waller at number 10. And I know that he has not been able to keep it up and sustain it. But when he did lock into that zone, he was as impossible to cover as anyone. So I gave him a little love. I don't even know if his career is continuing at this point, but a little pop for death. Yeah, it felt like there was like nine solid, apparently, for all of us.

I actually had Vernon Davis 10th. I split nine and 10 with Vernon Davis's old teammate on the Super Bowl, uh, reaching 2012, 409th scene. I gave Delaney Walker a little love, an old West favorite. I almost did that.

Three pro bowl is a great blocker, great at his, at his very peak. And so he snuck in at 10. But I'm glad I'm glad you mentioned Gates. That is the last thing I want to say because he didn't, didn't make the Hall of Fame last year and it's just like what he'll get there i know he'll get there you got to wait it's like devon hester and pat i love Patrick willis but like if you had said in the

middle of their primes like who's a better player and Antonio gates was so good and this exercise was interesting because this was the second half of his career where he just kind of cruised as terrific where he did the compiling that you often need for hall of fames and he was still making a lot of pro bowls and he's 600 to 800 yards but the first five he has that jimmy graham and gronk type two before that and then he cruised along so to me it was crazy he's even even waiting a year and it's just an awesome all-time great all right all those guys are pretty i mean i think after the top three that are i think going to be pretty consensus all those guys really are kind of in a pretty similar clump up until you get probably to the vernon davis range and whoever's at nine or ten for

you but i just thought olson is kind of one of the forgotten yes he had three one thousand yard seasons in a row and if he had not at the foot injuries when you just talk about peak of power stuff. He was just a man. Remember, they didn't have a ton of other guys in Carolina. And they said super. He was the guy. Like, talk about cerebral leadership, uh, consistency across the board until those injuries. Awesome hands. Like just great everything. Great rapper. I mean, really friendly when he ran him and ran into him in Vegas and he was feeling no pain at all in the casino. I mean, he's, he's very nice guy. He's doing it right. He's, he's living well. He's had a great life. Like if you, I try to make the case to,

Andrew Marshawn that Greg Olson was really the, you know, the big loser of the offseason in terms of the Tom Brady of it all in the broadcasting booth. But no, Greg Olson is doing great. Greg Olson. He's the JJ Reddick of the, I think he's on that trajectory, right? Great player who was kind of forgot about a little bit. Goes great analysts now. That's a good, although Reddick actually got a head coaching interview and might get more. Olson. Olson has poked his head around there. He tried to. He tried to. There was some, like, like, you know, sourced report that Greg Olson would be open if you would want to talk to him, but they never did. All right. John, you've said it all. Follow John on Twitter at Ledyard NFL draft.

Like I said, the audibles and analytics pod. And he's a busy man. So just keep an eye on him because he's doing all sorts of great coverage of ball. Thank you, buddy, for joining. Strong jaw, too. Appreciate it, John. Hey, I've been caught. My jaw has been comp to Bill Cowr at times. Very nice. John Ledger. We'll be right back to close things. Thanks, guys. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here.

And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers,

and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down. down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper

level, we give you the full picture. If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now, I'm Drew Franklin, and this is NFL Cover Zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game.

What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get. your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more.

I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy football. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to

the NFL fantasy football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. All right, we are back. Close some

things up. Nice conversation there with John Luddard. Good addition. I love that stuff. I don't know where I saw. I think it was a book I read that it was just like men just or maybe it was a tweet like all men like to do is just like rank things. And I was like yeah. Let's rank. Yeah, I get that. I mean, who better than us to do it? We've been doing this show. We've been following. Who's got it better than us? Uh, yes. Again, Mark Sessler not with us today, but Mark will be back on Wednesday. So, uh, tune in for that. Uh, also Wednesday is the schedule release show. So,

We will be breaking down all the interesting tidbits that are coming out of that. And before we say goodbye, we were just talking tight ends and all the fun ranking of it all that men like to do. There's some heat between one of the great tight ends of all time. He retired before he would be part of this conversation we just had. But Shannon Sharp, who was most recently seen kicking the hell out of us in a podcast award show, right? They flew him down there. That's what we knew we were done. Well,

I knew when you were, not only that, they had their own roped off section that we were, that I tried to get it down. Oh, that was rough. As soon as we got to Austin, like,

oh my God, this was all a trap. But Shannon Sharp is one of the great tight ends of the 90s into the 2000s, but he came after Shaquille O'Neal, the NBA legend. You know, what if Shaq,

you know, really tried hard. And Shack didn't, take too kindly to that let's check out this uh this i just thought was awesome uh because um shack cited gill brant's nfl dot com writeups multiple times okay so shack um cited gill uh ranking shan sharp 11th all time tight ends gil brand who uh rest in peace left us a year ago um former cowboys general manager uh and i just like that shacks posts got to be top 10 your profession before he speak on someone in their in their profession. Tough there,

there, their break for Shaq in a big spot there. But, um, uh, Shaq's pointing to Gil Brandt putting Shannon Sharp number 11 as the Bible and the be all end all of rankings. I just got to kick that only that. It's an old school NFL.com photo gallery. I can't believe Sharp didn't make the top. Leavenberg special. But then I look at who's in it, for instance. And you're, you can't you can't really fault, uh, Gil. guilt wait actually I do fault some things he's got jason witten fourth and gronk like two spots well you know gill is going to give jason witten a little extra pop but either way i i love this rap beef that i never knew i know this is this is the new drake and lamar pull up

the instagram feed one again because there's i love coded messaging that it's like what's going on does everybody know about about this um but us but at one point shack in his long diatribe against shannon sharp over nonsense rights don't forget, I know what you did to get where you were at. Oh, hell yeah. What's that all about? Whoa. What's that all about? Whoa. Wee. Oh, I need more on that. I do like that. Shaq said, Google me, four rings, top 75 NBA player. And he calls himself, you think I have too many nicknames? He calls him, he hashtags at the end, Apex Predator. Young Shaq was the most dominant athlete I've ever seen in my life. We took a, uh, growing up in, you know,

right on the border of northern New Jersey. We couldn't get into the garden to see the Knicks because they were very popular and successful at the time, but you could always get to a Nets game down at the Mettelands. So there was like a clash trip to go see Shaq when he was a rookie with the Magic. We took the bus down. My dad was one of the chaperones.

And we just saw Shaq just thrash a Nets team that was like looking at each other like, how is this grown man on the court? And we are but little boys. So maybe Shannon needs to remember that he was a special. And his numbers stack up pretty well with the all-time greats. Football is completely different than basketball.

All right. We'll be back Wednesday. Great job behind the glass tag team effort. What tag team would they be in? Demolition, I think. The Legion of Doom. Ah, what a rush. Heath a call.

Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else. It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday.

Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we hope. host the NFL fantasy football podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast,

your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL fantasy football podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. This is an IHeart podcast.