NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Travis Hunter's ceiling, Mason Graham's bust potential and Derek Carr Drama with Ollie Connolly

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Ollie Connolly to take a deep dive into the defensive players in this year's draft class. First, Gregg and Ollie react to news around the NFL including the news that Derek Carr could miss next season with a shoulder injury (03:00). After the break, the guys discuss Mason Graham (18:13), Jihaad Campbell (30:00), Jalon Walker, (36:00), Will Johnson (39:22), Travis Hunter (45:30), and more! Plus, the players Ollie would and would not want to target for his team (52:48).   Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everybody. Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the 6th, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet. We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to NFL Daily where we're ducking and covering on this Monday morning in Southern California. I'm Greg Rosenthal. I'm at home in the garage. I'm joined across the sea, the Atlantic Ocean, by my friend Ali Connolly of the Reed Optional podcast and Substack. Everyone, check that out.

Ali, you're joining us on a big morning, right as we were about to start taping a big earthquake in San Diego. Your thoughts as a Londoner. Absolutely terrifying. Terrifying to me that you just live in these circumstances and you kind of bat it off being like, let me just check the ticker, is it a five, is it a six, totally normal Monday morning? Not normal, and the reason is we didn't feel it here in L.A. Eric Roberts, who's producing this show, he's at the studios in Englewood, said everyone just stood up because what happens is you get an alert now, and this one said emergency alert, severe,

that the earthquake was detective, drop, cover, hold on. Now they get it to you sometimes 10, 15 seconds before the actual earthquake, which is a freaky situation. And then it never arrived. I'm sitting here in the garage. I was like, okay, I better get out of the garage. garage here. This would be the one place that collapses. Nothing happens in LA. But our friend Daniel Jeremiah, he sounds safe. It was in San Diego. We didn't feel it down here. But 5.2 is no

joke. That's the official reporting. So hopefully everyone's safe. We have important stuff to get to. I mean, maybe the earth is fighting back from this Derrick Carr story that we're somehow going to lead the show with in mid-April. I'm shocked. We're leading the show with a Derrick Car story. Holly, I have you on. You're one of my favorite draft analysts, among other things. And we're going to go through some of the players you would want to draft that you wouldn't want to draft on the defensive side. We've given defense a little short shrift so far on NFL daily. So we're going to focus on defense. And I gave you like a homework assignment to do that. And yet as I went through all these positions, I just have a lot of questions for you. So we're going to mix in the players you don't want. But I just have questions on the defensive side. Are you ready? That's exciting. No plays I don't want, Greg. But value becomes. the question. I'm very different than consents I think this year particularly up front. I feel like

there are some players that you wouldn't want. Why am I blanking on what's his name? The Eddresher from Ohio State. Why am I blanking? Oh, Jack Sawyer, yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah, get out of it. Yeah. I did listen to your your edge and defensive tackle

prospect evaluations on the read optional podcast. And like I said, everyone should check that out. We'll get to those a little later. And then I realized Is this going to infect my thinking? I don't want to just repeating them. So I've actually not listened since then as I went through and did my own work. So a lot of your answers will be surprising to me, but not in terms of the edge players.

But yeah, let's start with Derrick Carr because this news just, it hits my sweet spots. It cracked me up that we got this news from the national reporters. It was Schefter. It was Ian Rappaport out of nowhere saying that Derrick Carr might play football in 2025, but might not because of a shoulder injury that we hadn't heard anything about before. And there's, like, there's a lot of directions this could go. But my first thing was, why is this coming out right now? And then I looked and who is starting their off-season program Monday morning,

the Saints and the Cowboys. So those two things seem very connected to me. This is a guy Derrick Carr who does not particularly seem like he wants to be on the Saints, even though they desperately want him for whatever reason. and this news comes out before he's supposed to show up for work. It's just a total mess. And man, they are the team along with the Browns that I think are right now, the team that I would not want to root for because they're just run so poorly.

What do you think? Oh, yeah, just an abject disaster. I mean, by the end of next season, they will have paid 67% of his contract while only accounted for 27% of the salary cap. That might be the single worst move anyone has done non-Dashon-Watson division in the recent history, the least. to A for a guy that was pretty clear was breaking down, where you add open conversations about his value and worth of the position anyway to a team that was ready for a rebuild

and tear down because they'd mortgaged and credit carded their cap to the hill anyway. It is just the worst possible scenario, except for the fact that it gives them the easy out if they were a sensible franchise to detonate the entire building and say it's just three years, we've got to take our medicine, it's going to be two really rough years, to roll him with Kellan for three years. And yeah, because of who runs the show, I don't think it's going to happen. Right, but they could have done that before they just locked him in for three more years.

That was the whole thing, is they, just to get in the weeds a little bit on the money, them changing his salary to a signing bonus this year, guaranteed him his contract this year. It probably made it a one-year deal, but it also pushed all this pain of money into the next two future years when they could have just eaten their medicine now. And the whole idea was, well, we want to be able to spend in free agency this year. We want to contend this year. And so as my friends at the Saints Black Party podcast put it, they like did all this with Derek Carr this year just so they can sign Justin Reed and like bring back Chase Young, which I like

Justin Reed was a good signing. But like they've changed their outlook for the next three years. And the thing that's crazy is it doesn't sound like he wants to be there. He wouldn't play ball with them on restructuring his contract. That's why they had to do what they had to. do. We heard from outside sources and you didn't hear the car can't push back. And usually they do push back that like he would have been fine if they wanted to move him somewhere else. And so him possibly putting this news out. We don't know how it came out, but it sure doesn't seem like it came out from the Saints because the reporting from my friend Adam is that there are plenty of high up people in that building. They didn't even know his shoulder had a problem. So it sounds like this is Derrick Carr messing with the Saints. Like, I could play through this surgery, but I might not really want to. So if you can think of any way to get me off this roster in the meantime, that would be great. And if not, I might just

get the surgery and sorry, you're out of luck. And I'm just don't really want to hang out with you anymore. But that seems like not giving the Saints enough agency in the situation. This is just ranking competence. They could have sat down and figured this out, surely, or at least have had a true physical, have said that we're only going to convert the contract if you do X or Y and it's in writing and clearly that is not what happened. Or maybe it did and he's just completely

screwed them over. That would be fun if that came out. I love when we get the, now you tell us 4,000 word think piece about this stuff. So I'm looking forward to that reporting. I think it's going to get really crabby and nasty and that that'll be exciting. I just look at that situation and think it is the one place in the league right now where you just would not want to

work. I think the environment in the building is completely shattered. This is obviously not going to help. I am semi-intrigued by a year of Rattler. I think that could make things fun at least. You'd be living on the edge of your seat. I think if you're rooting for a team, do you want to go down with Derek Carr and the arms flailing by week six or you at least get to experience Rattler Ball knowing you got a chance to arch in the future? No, I feel bad for Derek Carr in a certain way, which is just that no other like late Thursday or Friday news dump, whatever this was, of a starting quarterback potentially being out for

this season, has ever had a higher approval rating among the fan base than this. Everyone celebrated. Everyone said, this is great. They don't care. They would rather see Rattler. The problem is the two possible scenarios here are that the Saints partly knew about it ahead of time, and we're just like, we don't care. You've played through all these other injuries.

By the way, he hasn't been healthy for three years, not consistently healthy. Three straight years. hasn't been healthy. That's a problem with why you're giving him all this money. Either they knew about this and that they assumed he was going to play through it because, hey, we're giving you all this money and he's played through it in the past, which is horrible. Why are you doing that? Why are you giving that? Or they didn't know about it, which is even worse. So it's bad. And it makes them more likely to take Shador Sanders, I guess. But I always thought that was their most likely outcome of Shador Sanders was him joining the Saints, partly because

people I trust have thought they've been in on quarterbacks this whole time. And partly just because I think he will fall to them. And that's a logical landing spot. And they could kind of start over with Shudur and Derrick Carr for, you know, one year. And now that they're sitting there at nine, it kind of lets everyone else know. If anyone wanted to trade ahead to take Shudor, I don't think that's going to happen. That would be the spot to jump ahead of the Saints. Do you, I don't know, what do you think about that fit with Kellyn Moore kind of starting out with Shudor Sanders potentially?

Yeah, that's a brutal one to me and I would not be interested that if I was the saints. I look at Shado and I'm a Shado fan. I think I may be like him a little tick more than consensus but I think his game boils down to him and he's massively overthought in my opinion because of the name, because of the brand

and I just watch his game and I think at his best and there are issues with not playing with enough rhythm, taking too many sacks, some sloppy decision making but I just think he's brought Purdy. It is point and shoot rhythm-based thrower and he torches people on him breaking rounds. That is where he will make his money in the league. There was not enough

of it last season because the offensive line was a horror show. The entire offense was puking-ducing. It was just an embarrassment to watch for the most part. But his best stuff comes rhythm-based, hit the back foot, ball pops out on in-breaking stuff. That is not what Kellemore wants to do. When Brock Purdy arrived in the league, and I'm talking about Brock Purdy when we see him at his very best, which is just immaculately efficient with maybe one or two bits of off-script gems in there, rather than it being, this guy's a creator for us. This guy can change the box count in the run game. That's where Kellan's had most of his successes.

Someone bails me out of two dub play calls in a half and it makes me look pretty clever. And we change the box count either by having an all time running back or by the quarterback being a downhill thumping threat. Shudora is neither of those things. You would have to have to me a really clean immaculate ecosystem for him to be this kind of point and shoot point guard distributor. And I just don't see that fit with Kellamore.

I think he's a way better fit with Stefanski. I just think that value would be too high to do it that early in the draft. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And yet, if I was a Saints fan and I'm thinking about how can we salvage this situation, this season, they have not taken a first round quarterback since Archie Manning. That should be the stat that everyone keeps saying as opposed to the Falcons not having a pass rusher since John Abraham or whatever it is. I at least can see a future where, okay, this season's going to be a mess. Mickey Loomis might not last longer. Kellyn Moore might not even last longer.

But I don't know. If you're at least give us some quarterback that we could be excited about in two or three years and Shudor Sanders would then be on the roster. I could live with that if I was a Saints fan. You say that, but you know how this goes. He comes and he plays 18 games. He gets beat up with a bad offensive line,

a bad offensive system, and then everyone's asking for the next guy. I just don't see what the upside is there. You want to get the guy. I think he's a major environmental quarterback, not with any of the off-the-field personality. stuff and the things people overthink purely in terms of the scheme of football, where will he be at his best?

You need to craft layups. He needs to go and play for someone in the Ben Johnson style of things, in the Clint Kubiak even style of things who was there last season. That's just not the way Kellan Moore does things. I did just want to spend some time on this before we got deeper into the draft because it is fascinating and hilarious. Like Derek Carr, according to social media, at least as of late last week, was in Europe on a family vacation.

And the fact that he almost clearly didn't want to be there and that most of the fan base and maybe chunks of the front office, maybe even the head coach didn't want him to be there, but Mickey Loomis did. And then he re-signs him. And then they're in this whole, it's going to be a cat and mouse game, I think.

Maybe he's setting it up where, like, look, if they take Shadur Sanders, I have an easy exit. I have an excuse now. And maybe if I go to another team, I will play for them. And I won't need that shoulder. surgery. We'll see what happens there. But I meant to bring up Sanders there because I actually think Lewis Riddick's Twitter account has been newsworthy, which is that he has been saying

that the ninth pick is interesting for Sanders as a landing spot. And he's very close to the Sanders family, apparently, because he played with Dion. And he had this quote that he that shoulder hopes that he doesn't go top three, essentially doesn't want to go to the Giants. And Dion literally retweets it with the eyes emoji confirming what Lewis Riddick is saying. So they're basically telling us they want to go to the Saints. And so just newsworthy wise, I kind of think this is going to happen unless someone trades up. I'm with you that it's probably going to happen because Mickey Lewis is trying to save his job.

And the best thing you can do is throw a dart at the dartboard. Hope you hit in a quarterback. You get to hang around for 12 years. That's just how the game kind of works. but I sure maybe wants to go there because he's scanning through the top 10 and saying, I mean, saying I don't want to go second or third with the contractual difference, I just don't buy at all on the ego boost of going second or third. When you look at the roster and the projected outlook for the Saints,

it would make sense if it was, you know, the Niners or a team that had fallen from contention had a really bad injuries. I can't believe this team is in this range. To say the one situation you want to go to in the league right now is the Saints, I'm just not buying. I think that's very much like I've been seeing some of the reports that, hey, maybe some teams have me in a second or third round grade. I might stop out the first round.

I don't want to sit there on draft night and look silly. That I think would play more into it. Then, oh, I cannot wait to go play for Kellamore on a really ill-fitting roster. Right. And, yeah, maybe it's a south thing. Dion said he likes the colors of the Saints. But maybe it's that he basically has an idea that the Giants aren't going to take them. There's not another logical landing spot.

And so that's the highest that he could possibly go. So I mentioned the Cowboys started their off-season play. But Michael Barson showed up for it, though. He's lifting weight. So just that might not be as dramatic in terms of his contract. Just a couple other small things I wanted to mention. Drew Locke is back with the Seahawks. So they're probably, I don't know if that makes any difference for their draft,

but, you know, he's the backup right now to Sam Darnold. Jalen Petrie and Kyler Gordon got well-deserved contracts from their respective team. Kyler Gordon, the slot cornerback for the Bears. Jailen Petrie, the safety with the Texans. And then the one item I do want to get your thoughts on a little bit is Joe Flacco's back with the Browns. He only got $4 million guaranteed. So that's like third quarterback money. But I thought that paired with the Kenny Pickett quote.

I'm not just here to hang out. Was a delightful quarterback room to set up. Kenny Pickett, Joe Flacco, and maybe a second or third round quarterback. I guess I'll throw it to you this way. Like which, assuming they're not taking Sanders, which one would you? want to throw in the mix there with Kenny Pickett and Joe Flacko, because I can't imagine that's the only plan is to have those two guys. No, I think that that middle class tier of quarterbacks is buyers beware territory. I know a lot of people like Tyler Shug. I get it. I watch

it. I see all the pro style elements. I see the arm. I also see a guy who is completely afraid of throwing under pressure and will consistently turn his entire body when someone is even within a sniff of him. And you just cannot play without no step throws in the NFL. You can't play without the pocket caving in on you. And so he is the one where I think I would maybe close my eyes and because of the age being 25 and maybe he slips a little bit because of some of the medical concerns. And we're in the third round, I would close my eyes and say, like, let's take the punt. I would just be worried of being in a Brandon Whedon situation where we have a guy who at the end

of a rookie contract is going to be 29 years old and he doesn't want to throw under fire, which is a lot of what they got in that room, which is a 40-year-old guy who maybe won't want to throw under fire as he turns 41. He did do the last time we saw him. but maybe as he gets all he doesn't want to. And Kenny Pickett, who is the most pressure, vulnerable quotes back in the league? Yeah, that's a good call because Browns fans thinking Flacco, first of all, he wasn't as good. It was a fun moment in time.

I'm not taking that away. Like some of the throws he made, if you just made the top 20 Joe Flacco throws on the Browns, were incredible and just fun to watch. But I think it confirms that they're unlikely to take Sanders. I never really expected that they were in there. that mix that they were ever going to trade up to take Cam Ward anyway. So it's probably going to be Flacco, it's probably going to be Pickett, and it's going to be someone in the middle rounds. Also, Pat Peterson retired. Happy trails to him. What a great player. You're so good

breaking down. Give me just any Pat Peterson thoughts, because we talked about on our last show with Ross Tucker, just like, I just like giving these guys a little love on the way out. Because that, to me, how many, like, locked in Hall of Fame cornerbacks have there been in the last 10 years? I'm not sure, but I feel like Pat Peterson is one of those guys. Whether it's his first year or third year, he will be a Hall of Fame cornerback, like one of the best to do it. He should be. And one of our last great man everywhere he goes through cover corners. This is not the way teams are playing anymore.

I haven't played for a long time outside of Sherman-type stuff. Or it's a little bit more. You just play one sideline. But I truly plant him on anyone for them. anywhere, we don't get those guys anymore. Even Satan, sauce, Gardner, they do it in a different style. So just getting up in someone's face, beating the crap out of them up front, then following them ever all over the field.

They're doing it for eight, nine years at the highest possible level. We don't get those guys anymore. Yeah, and it was part of fun teams. Didn't quite get over the hump, but happy trails again to Pat Peterson. All right, let's come back. We'll take a quick break. We'll talk about if Travis Hunter could be in that class of cornerbacks, among many other defensive questions I've got for Ali Connolly after this.

Hey, this is Matt Jones. I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL Cover Zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my.

We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt. Jones and Drew Franklin on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up, everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks.

On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team-building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape. Talk to decision makers and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow. We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all together on game day.

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Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily, we have confirmed with Daniel Jeremiah. He's okay. His one tweet, Huge earthquake is a little like, that's not enough information. He's got to tell us more. But yeah, the San Diego area.

Rocked on this Monday morning. We're up here in L.A. Ollie, and it's time to start talking defensive prospects. And part of the reason I wanted you on for this, it's because I already mentioned, I listened to that defensive tackle podcast, and I listened to The Edge 2, and that was back in February. And your guys' take on Mason Graham, it was you and John Ledger. who was on talking quarterbacks just a week ago. So I recommend everyone check that out. Your take on Mason Graham was so off consensus that, again, I was like, I don't want this.

This is going to become my take. I'm a little worried. I went back. I did watch him. I see what you guys are saying. I'm not all the way there because he is a fun prospect. My theory on Mason Graham, and you can tell me if you disagree, is just he is the prospect where the makeup of this draft class has the biggest impact. And by that, I mean, in a normal draft class, like, is he a better prospect

than Collijah Cancy? I know they're different in some ways, but to me, they're similar in other ways. Is he like that much different of a prospect? I don't think so from my humble evaluation. And then he would be going 19 or 22 as like an interesting, you know, sub-rusher at first that gets in and hopefully get seven, eight, nine sacks. But now he's getting talked about as the number four pick in the draft. And that's the main difference with him to me. You guys seemed even more down on him that like he's always on the ground, that you would not want to take this guy and you just don't see what other people are seen.

So explain what you are seeing with Mason Graham, the defensive tackle from Michigan, who is projected by a lot of people to go in the top five. Yeah, I think your point is right. Ordinarily those kind of undersized explosive upfield subbrushes, which is what I think he'll be in the league. they become kind of internet darlings and they're usually projecting like the 20, 23 range

and there's usually 3 or 4 people fall in love with every class and the league just says, no, we're good, thank you. They can go 19th, 20th, if they don't go in the top 10 the way you have them. Because they end up being extraordinarily fun, quick off the ballplay is in college. You can just embarrass guys who aren't as quick off the snap as they are.

I think when you get into these interior subrushes, people, I think, fixate almost too much on the initial twitch off the snap, which is important and you want to beat people to the set point but the guys who win in that area with pure just speed off the ball

are legitimately the greatest players in the history of the position. It is Aaron Donald Warren Sap. Like that's what we're talking about where it's true quicks off the ball and when you think about how they actually win it's not the same as off the edge where you just beat someone out the cleats

and they can't close the distance in time. There's just so much mass in there. Usually they can draw some kind of double team help the center panics goes and helps over so you really have to get under the pad level and drive and that's really how they win is there's a true strength to how they finish the thing. Donald was not Donald because he was quicker than everyone.

He was stronger than everyone. He was more intelligent than everyone. And when you watch Mason Graham, there's a lot of just wasted rush where it is pure speed and he doesn't have the power to drive past guys once they establish some kind of position, even if they're not properly aligned, even if they're off balance.

He just doesn't really drive and close. I think that's why you see when you go through some of the pressure figures, the sack figures. He is disruptive, but you don't have that kind of five, six, ten, twelve sack season for a guy who should be talking people inside when they're designing one-on-one rushes for a number four overall pick in the draft.

So to me, it's more of the strength. And it really jumps out to me when you go and watch him against Texas, Oregon, best teams in the country, they game plan at the projected number four pick in the draft. They double team and climb off him every single time. They bullied him in the trenches. So we're talking about a guy who may not be able to play on rundowns

and then becomes your sub-rusher where you're in a three-take, you let him fly up field. So now we're down already. We're cutting the snaps, basically in a third. So we're getting maybe 40 snaps a game and the way he would have to win is purely speed-based.

It's purely in the hand fight. And even in the speed and hand fight, he can get four or five moves and where other guys can fit one. I get all that stuff. Incredibly fun player to watch and scout. It takes a long time to actually happen. It's a lot of jab step,

fate, jab step go the other way. The ball is out in the NFL. You're playing Jared Goff. The ball is out in 2.6 seconds. We don't have four seconds to get home. Yeah, there are some, incredible place. He's a fun defensive tackle to watch. And maybe that's, that's where the layman's eyes just are attracted to. There's this play against Ohio State, where he forces

an interception. He's got like, he's got that quick move. And they actually double team him. And he does push it, but the momentum keeps them going. I get what you're saying, that there's also other plays where like, he starts in one gap and he's getting bounced over. And you're right, he's on the ground a decent amount. And there's, there's sometimes where you're thinking, man, And if this was in the NFL, forget Gap integrity. Like, he is all over the place. But I threw this out like, hey, I do a show with Daniel Jeremiah. We've got Mina Kimes, by the way, on the show later this week.

Check out 40s in Freedance with me, DJ, and Mina. And, you know, I threw this out there. Like, could this be a guy that couldn't really be on the field that much on running downs? And I'm kind of getting this idea from you guys. So here, you have the opportunity to really change how people are thinking. Because I'm coming to the guy, DJ, with this. And he was insulted by the question because it's not just draft Nix that are putting him this high. It's, it's, it's moved this. It's Daniel Jeremiah. It's, it's Mel Kiper. It's, it's seemingly everyone in potentially teams. I'm not really sure.

And he was insulted by it thinking that he is a good run defender. And I will say, like, he does have a nose watching when I did go to watch on my own. He does have a nose for the ball as a run defender when he can get off his block or whatever. Like he does make plays in the running. game. What is it that I guess that you're seeing that that you think maybe these other people aren't as much in terms of his run defense? I think it's it's not necessarily about when you just evaluate player by player and you go trade by trait. That's one way you doing things. The projections of the league of what does the league demand of these people. So where does he align actually in the front? Is he a four eye? Is he holding the point? I get there's a lot of immense and I'm not saying this guy is like undraftable. I just wouldn't take him with a top 10 pick.

there's better value further down the board than he is. I have a high second round grade on him. It's just I don't think he's anywhere now. I think exactly what you said is the right situation where he's in that collider can'ty range for me where you're asking the question, do we draft a subbrush in the first round or can he play all three downs? I think the run game stuff where he's at his best is quick penetration. He's just so quick off the snap.

He's really got jets in his feet and just beats people to the backfield. But the inline strength just doesn't hang. I mean, like I said, Texas, Oregon, Michigan State, Minnesota. You can go on and on and on. Teams are game planning against him. It is doubles all across the board, and they run at him, knowing they can displace him, throw him out the way. And there's even a bunch of one-on-ones where once guys grip him

and they win the initial phase of the rep, they can just move him. And then there's huge lanes everywhere because he really wants to fight. He's such an effort player that he just gets himself out of position trying any different way to get off the block and try and fight through to the backfield. So unless he's winning immediately off the snap of the NFL level, which is really hard to do. As I said, it sounds good in theory when you go through the prospects. When you think about who's winning in the league on early downs,

to be a guy who just wins in the backfield over and over again, you're talking about the best of the best, top five, six players ever. Not top five, six in the league at the time. There aren't that many guys who just rip off the ball and every single week you're looking up and saying, oh, it's two TFLs in the backfield. Those guys usually come from the edge.

They don't come from the interior. Right. And because of that, I did expect coming in that his tape would just be more dominant. It's good. It's like exciting tape, but it's not like you. He was racking up tons of production as just this best defensive player in college football. He's got like 500 snaps the last couple of seasons, and he was a very, very good, like, useful player, but he wasn't like dominating.

In fact, I'm basic enough because when I go through these prospects, I realize I don't know what I don't know in terms of the breadth of watching a ton of these guys' games and comparing that to past examples and comparing that to what it looks like. So I'm not trying to be an expert. But my base, just like if I was drafted a team, I would, I feel better about Kenneth Grant, who's right next to him because you watch those two guys together. And that guy is huge.

And he's got pretty good movement skills. And I feel like I can understand at least enough that I've seen enough at the pro level, like that those movement skills that Kenneth Grant has will track to me. And you're probably going to have a pretty good run defender because he's just huge. he's 340 pounds. So I wouldn't want to take him in the top 10 either.

But if I just had to take a guy, I feel more comfortable that Kenneth Grant actually looks like a guy that's just going to be on an NFL team for five to 10 years. And there actually is some upside because he moves great for a guy that's, I don't know how tall he is, but he's massive in 30040. He moves great for that kind of guy. And there are some plays that you look at Kenneth Grant. And to me, he looks like an intriguing top 25 type of pick.

Yeah, I think it comes to. down to with the two of them, and I talk about this with John all the time, Grant is a guy who gets you to the playoffs. Graham is a guy who will make a play for you in the playoffs where everyone goes, oh, there's Mason Graham with a huge sack on third down, but to get there, someone's got to play 80% of the snaps in the regular season where we can actually, you know, play some defense to try and get to the thing. And Grant is a ginormous human being you mentioned, who looks more like a nose, but it's got really good lateral quicks. So I think there's more asterish potential in there. The thing with him is just technically

he is all over the place. He sells what he's doing based on his stance. And by the end of the season, people knew exactly what was happening. He would change his foot position essentially and his hand placement based on what he was trying to do after the snap. So there's a lot that you've got to work through with him. He slow off the ball, not because he doesn't have to pop, but

just there's a bunch of false stepping. He's trying to gather speed rather than just exploding off the snap. You watch Graham and he just goes and it's a forward lead and he explodes into the backfield. So there's a lot of technical work that needs to be done. But you just get the role player, which is guys that big shouldn't move that way, particularly laterally. He will leave two gaps in one go. Just don't see guys do that. Jamari Caldwell

at Oregon, exact same things. Can we mold them into something as a better value if we can snag these guys at the top of the second round, middle of the second round, and it is going and trying to push a guy in the top 10 where with Graham, I just think that it's way more scheme dependent than the projections are suggesting. And I think there will be teams who play more odd front defense, who maybe are more in the blitz game world, where they look. look him and go, he really needs to go and play where it's four down and four flyers up front on passing downs, where you can get all the stunt games involved, where we can give him some rest on some of the rundown stuff. And he just fits way more in that San Francisco vogue of

the last three, four years than he does where you can just drop him on any defense of the league and say he can be a benchmark foundational piece for us. Yeah, that's fair. But if he, yeah, if he gets to one of those teams and he makes enough splash plays in this draft, ultimately they'll be happy enough. But I think there is bigger. your bus potential. I agree with you guys there. At least that's what I think. I'm not going to put words in your mouth. I feel like he's a boom or bust type of type of guy. I'm going to go through my big questions for you first. And then we'll get to your guys you want or not. My, my question, because watching Jehad Campbell, I'll give my opinion afterwards. But my question for you is,

do you think his instincts, for lack of a better term, will be a problem? Jihad Campbell, Alabama, offball linebacker pretty clearly by most people's account, the best. off-ball linebacker in the class. I haven't heard your thoughts on that, but at least consensus-wise, he's the only one that's expected to go in the first 50 picks, and he could go in the top of 15 picks. Do you think his instincts will be a problem

like it's been for some of the off-ball linebackers that have been drafted lately? Yeah, I think off-ball lineback is just a position now, and I was an off-ball linebacker scout for like the first seven years in my career, so it's very near and dear to my heart, and I am very brutal with these guys when they're coming out of the draft.

And if you just go through the recent seasons of guys come out, It takes like two, three years now. It's like playing quarterback or something, particularly safety in the league right now. It takes a long time for these guys to actually be able to play. So I think even when people say, oh, do they have the instincts? I'm not sure any of these guys come out now and have the ability to play in a full NFL defense from the get-go. It's just so taxing to do.

You watch guys like Quay Walk, who was going to be this move piece all around, just lost. We're in season two, three. Now, still just has no idea where he's going off the time. It's just a really, really difficult translation to the league. So, with Campbell, I think you are betting purely on athleticism. And I actually think that he maybe is a better pure edge rusher than he is actually a stand-up linebacker. I think if he just played in the edge full-time, people would be really fired up. He has real, real speed and can swoop off the edge.

And they use him a lot in the Blitz game. They mug him up. They let him fly downfield. And so I think he, to me, is really scheme-centric. If it's really a attack-based defense where it's kind of mug, drop, or just really drop to distance, you can see a lot of the picture and then drive downfield. That's where I think he can be okay. he's really quick linearly.

I just don't think he has quite enough wiggle feel in the box. If you're playing in a more traditional style of defense, you're playing a more of a zone-based defense where he's really going to have to play in tight confines early in the down and distance. I just don't think that's where he's going to be. So I get all that the Tampa speculation makes a ton of sense to me. You want to have a really like up there, blitz package, really creative.

I think him being more of a move piece is where the value comes with him than being just a traditional drop back, see it, find it linebacker. Yeah, so he's 235 pounds, or at least he, I think, at the combine he was, but he was recruited as an edge player, like a big-time recruit, and they've just had great edges there, and he ended up settling in as an off-by linebacker. I loved watching him, and the reason I asked you about the instincts is partly because, like, this is the guy I want to watch, succeed of all the defensive players the most of anyone. And, like, he was awesome. But I also recognize some of the fun players coming into the draft at linebacker have, have burned evaluators. And so I'm not sure what to think because he just turned 21 years old.

Like, he won't turn 21 until next off season. And the way he moves, like, and the force that he can play with at his size, although he does look small sometimes going up against, like, the left tackles and everything. I'm happy to hear you say that because I'm wondering if, like, is he too small to rush the passer consistently? But he's good at taking guys in the open field. Once he does read a play and gets after it, I mean, he reminds me in Navarro Bowman.

Like, he's just awesome. And so I, like, want to love this guy. And I do love this guy coming into the draft. Like, if I rooted for a team and they ended up with Jahad Campbell, I'd be pumped about the ceiling of it all. I don't know if it's going to work. He does, like doesn't seem like you read stuff as quickly and biting on these play action and all that stuff. But he could be like a really fun player.

And I get it in this class if he ends up going higher, either higher than people think or certainly in the top 20, I think he's going to end up going. Because the upside seems really high to me. Yeah, particularly when you factor in the fact, he can maybe play multiple positions for you, be a moved chess piece. The value just explodes from there. And if you can get something, the coverage chops is just the issue. but there aren't any of these linebackers coming in the league who have outstanding coverage shops. It's really difficult.

The coverage is different in the NFL. Spacing is different. The geometry, the field is different. It is taking them all a really long time. The thing I look for with these guys is, can they play sift and fine football? Can they kind of dance through the crevices the line of scrimmage? The guy I loved a couple of years ago,

Dan Henley was like the guy I thought was a top 15 player in the class. He just had this ability as a former running back to just navigate through the traffic at the line of scrimmage. And if you can get that down, you can start to figure out and layering the coverage. stuff, it's pretty easy to do. I do think Camel is a bit more freight train built where it's just like see it, attack it, run my face through it, which is what I want. That's the old school lineback and that's like will a lineback of football, go smash everything in the face and let's have

fun. I don't know if he's quite got the craft there yet, but as you mentioned, he's so young and if you can get him to a system where he's allowed to play with a little bit more freedom positionally, I think he can be so impactful in year one based off just raw athleticism and feel and then you could get more of the true lineback of stuff year three, year four. Yeah, I saw in the Bob McGinn write-up that no inside linebackers drafted in the last four years have made the Pro Bowl, which is crazy. Like at any point in their career, obviously,

not just as a rookie. There's just like been no Pro Bowl. And Pro Bowl is a pretty low bar because so many people make the Pro Bowl. I think with the linebacker slightly, it's if you have to come in with name brand value before people, it takes a while for people to catch up. I think that Devin Lloyd and people laugh at me if they've played

at an all pro level last season. I thought that Dan Henley played at an all pro level last season. So those guys, I think, would be an outstanding. You just have to go with name brand value and have splash plays, I think, to make the Pro Bowl. Yeah. And Henley is a good shout out as a developmental track. He's gotten pretty good, pretty fast. Good job by you scouting that. I hope Jahad Campbell, he does make people miss occasionally.

Like his great plays where he does make someone miss while attacking forward are just awesome. So I'm rooting for him. I'm going to keep giving you questions. My next question is on Jalen Walker. So I'm sticking to the top of these projected boards because if you're coming into this process late, you know, Jalen Walker is a guy who played a decent amount of offball linebacker at Georgia and he's going to get drafted as an edge rusher

that's kind of become consensus. I know you guys taped your podcast on Jalen Walker. Now it's been like two months ago. In the time that since you've taped it, it's become consensus that of course he's an edge. edge. That's going to be the ideal use. And I do think NFL teams are on that, even if it took a little while for the media to track up. My question with him is just, like, is he special enough? Like, and maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Do you think he's a special enough athlete to be, like, worth of all the possible players that you could take in that top five to six range? Like, what can he do that makes him worth that sort of pick? think what he could do for you is the ability to move around and play him inside some as a stand-up linebacker. And, you know, he's got experience dropping out into coverage. You can get really

creative with pressure groups. He becomes like a coach's player where the coach is like banging the table being like, please get me a piece where it's like stealing three roster spots and I can get in the lab with the staff and get really creative. And then he's just got so much explosive at the upfield that you can just rely on him in more of a four-down situation, let him go fly upfield. But I just think that for the excitement with the athleticism, I'm, with you, I don't think it's quite top-tier athleticism and just the lack of experience, the lack of know-how of how to actually win. It's all jab steps and a little bit tentative once he's going one-on-one in the pass rush. Even dating back a couple of years, he was an edge

defender, then he moved him off ball. He was completely out to see off-ball. Just did not know what was happening. We're just going to see things and charge around all over the place. So I don't think he'll play there in the league. But if a team can get him, I think that the bet will be, well, He's a primary edge defender for us, but we have this where we can maybe roll 10, 12 snaps a game where he plays a mugged up line back here, opens up more for us. We can get an extra pass rush around the field,

and now we're all high-fiving on the sideline because we've got a cool pressure package. Yeah, and I could see that because he does seem strong enough to do it. Like, he gets after it, whereas, like, if he landed with Jacksonville and he's sort of the third edge, but they use them inside on passing downs, like, I don't know how good they're,

defensive staff is going to be that that's an open question but like he he could be kind of fun there i could see it that you could see him having the ceiling but again more kind of like graham a little bit boom or busty to me for a guy going going this high yeah he would have to be a true top 15 16 edge defender i think for the investment to be worth it whereas it feels an awful lot like we get these players where they're really versatile think of all the things that creative things we can do and eventually you get to like week nine the season like i Robert just had a really good edge defender and we signed a solid enough offball linebacker than chasing a two player in one who doesn't quite have the good to either.

Okay, let's actually take a quick break. We're going to come back. I have a few more questions and then we're going to go through some of the players that you want and don't want on your team. Back in a minute. Hey, this is Matt Jones. I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL Cover Zero.

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Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Back on NFL Daily. One thing I always think while you're, like, cranking through all these tapes of, like, all these players. Like, how do you have the time, right? Like, how much do you watch? It seems like you watch an extraordinary amount of tape on these guys. Probably better asking my wife, I think, than me.

I don't see friends or family for months of time. I mean, you've texted me before. Do I ever reply? It takes a long time. I just turn to not disturb on night. I sit in a basement for 12 hours a day. Okay. That's how you do it.

Lack of kids helps, maybe, you know. Yeah, it is tough to get Ali. That's why we're going long on this show. You know, we got to wait for the reply. We got to make it all work up with the extraordinary time change over to the UK. So when we got them, I want to know the, the interest to these questions. So that's why I'm asking them. Let's go to cornerback. And with Will Johnson at Michigan, he was one of those players, maybe the more I watched,

the less I liked maybe. And maybe it's not just about comparing the two years, which I don't know, he was fine. He just didn't play that much this year for the most part at cornerback. I just, I guess I want to hear you, I want to hear your opinions on, on Will Johnson. and like what concerns you the most about him? Michigan cornerback who had a big time year in 2023, just didn't play as much in 24. Maybe he had kind of a mix that best game against Fresno State, which got people.

But it's also that you're only looking at a couple games from this season before he got her. What are you concerned about? By the way, as we're taping this on Monday, he did a pro day, but he did not run the 40 at the pro day. So Longspeed was a bit of a concern for him and you'll never find that 40 time. out from Will Johnson, by the way.

My main issues with him is general toughness at the line of scrimmage, technique, impressed coverage. He's not a true man everywhere. You go corner where you just plant him on one side of the field or one player and say, go match that guy the entire game. And he has this kind of perfect sinewy modern corner build. It looks like, oh, this is Christian Gonzalez. We've got another one.

And he's been billed as the top guy for two seasons, right? It's like, hey, Will Johnson's coming. Don't worry about cornerback if you're at the top of the draft. He just isn't that kind of physical one-to-one. player upfield. And this is something me and John I've been banging on about now for years when people talk about corners. This idea of the kind of six, seven, 12 years ago,

corner of playing in this vertical plane where they're like up and down one sideline, it just doesn't exist anymore. You have to play inside. You have to play close to the line of scrimmage. It's not oh, do they have the in-out flexibility? Can they play in the slot? Can they play on the boundary? You're all tight to the formation. We are more condens than you've ever been in the NFL. You have

to play in there. There is so much more grass to your outside shoulder than they ever used to be. And he has only really played in that vertical plate and a bunch of zone coverage where he is really instinctive, he's got unbelievable feel for out progressions

and he can jump stuff all the time. So he, John used the example of Marcus Peters with him which I think is who he is, which is going to be boom or buzz. He might break your heart one week

but take you to the playoffs the next week. I think he's going to be really instinctive, but the tackling stuff is a major concern with where the league is at right now, how tight everything is in there. They will run at you,

they will find ways to attack the corners in space. And so you've got a guy who can't play in press coverage tight and inside and can't tackle and is unwilling to tackle and stubs his toe and misses the entire season, that would be my making sense. Well, and I think there were understandable whispers

of what he's just kind of sitting on that 20, 23 year, which is natural. I don't know if I knock him that much for that, but he's also had injuries, or said he's had injuries during the pre-draft process. So that's not the best thing. It's a tricky thing, I think, if you have a monster season

and then you're back and your team is worse, So I give him a little pass for that somewhat, but it's a case where he probably would have been better off if he was just in last year's draft. When I watch him, though, he does look like an NFL cornerback. Like, he clearly is going to play in the league. You use the word instincts and just like he has a feel. And I think he's going to be pretty good.

Marcus Peters is interesting. You would hope at that size that he, can you learn? Can you learn tackling? Do you think? You can, but there's tackling and then there's turn your back to the game because you want to have no interest. in actually hitting someone. There's a lot of these corners this year

who they do not want to be involved in tackling. They will play face up. They will come down. If it's a free shot, they will try and ding someone. They get the tick and the scout mark. The guy will hit. But wanting to actually be involved in the blocking mechanics,

which is you've got to be in this position, no can do. You've got to take on a blocker, shift him out the way and then go hit a guy in space. No can do. So he's just kind of part of the lineage of these guys. The thing with him, I think, that is important to know is I think he's operates on a different plane intellectually to a lot of the corners we've had in recent years.

They run a really, really complex scheme at Michigan, and some of the stuff they did was built around. I think we have a savant, a cornerback. So let's really run this on-the-fly morphing, moving coverages that allow him to take control of the back end of the defense. I've not seen anyone do that, ever. So they allowed him to just basically give a hand signal to a safety and say, you go have free fun.

I've got this side of the field. I've never seen anyone do that at the college level. So I think he's operating at a different level intellectually. I think that's part of why we call it instincts, but it's just he understands what's happening like three seconds before even the quarterback releases the ball so we can spring on things. So I think it's a when he was first coming up, it's like, oh, it's going to be the next great corner.

It felt like he was going to be Gonzalez, lock people down. Maybe there's not quite the game-breaking type players. Whereas I think now it's more evident that he will be a playmaker for you more than he will be a shutdown corner. Although that's intriguing to me because if you're saying that, there's certainly buildings around the league that are, saying something similar and the respect that they would give the Michigan staff. And certainly

maybe 22 with the Chargers is a floor for them if he fell that far. I don't necessarily think you will. But that's intriguing because that should translate to the next level, the mental side of things. All right. My question on Travis Hunter with you, and this is where I'm going back into like the basic scouting of it all from my view, which is it's almost like people are in a competition to talk about Travis Hunter of how well they could talk about it, but like how good is he? But when I thought about it

and I watched them at cornerback and watched them at receiver, my thought was that like and people recognize he's the best prospect at both positions. My thought in this class is he probably would, I don't even put, would say probably. For me, he's the best prospect in this class

just as a cornerback. Like he would be the number one overall prospect just as a cornerback. So I mean, all positions comparing him. And I think there's an argument that he might be the best prospect at any position at receiver. Because to me, I wouldn't put him like, it's tough to compare him to Chase coming out because it's a little more polished and stuff. But I think he's in that ballpark where he's in that class of wide receiver. So in this class where I'm not, I like Abdul Carter, but I'm not going crazy.

He's probably to me the number one overall prospect just as a cornerback and the number one over a prospect just as a wide receiver. which is why I don't believe, I never believe that he was going to get to the Patriots. And now I don't believe that he's going to get past Cleveland because I think teams see this and they're just going to want to take him. Yeah, I find it mind-boggling that he's not the runaway, number one overall pick in the draft. I get, take how old you want a quarterback that there's not a boat race of teams lining up. This class stinks. Please take our picks. We would like to move to number two to have a chance.

This is, and I'm not prone to high verbally, as you know, Greg. But he is the most magical player I've ever scouted in my career. I meant now, what, 16 years, and I include Andrew Look, I include all the quarterbacks. I've never seen anyone move the way this guy moves, and to have those kind of movement skills as a cornerbag and as a receiver is the most preposterous thing, and it's almost under-discussed. He's the most famous college football player in the country. He wins the He wins the He wasn't very good at two positions, just for the fact he played the two positions. We would have given him the award, but the movement skills are extraordinary.

The instincts, the understanding of the game are beyond belief, the way he can undercut things. break on things, play against offenses where usually when you see a great corner in college, people will not target them. That's kind of how it goes. Like, oh, they didn't want to throw to the good one. Teams tilt their entire offensive design to get rid of him so they can throw the ball. There's a bunch of games where teams are saying, we're going to run a drag cross route to get him all the way out of there. Please run to the other side of the field drivers. We don't trust you. You'll figure this out. And we'll also roll the pocket. So the players rolling to the right and they're running a drag route to the left side of the field to get him away from everything.

He is breaking the entire structure of offenses because they are so afraid affront him and it's not just that he's a better athlete than everyone it's that he's so superiorly smarter than everyone as well and he really reminds me of champ Bailey as a corner and as a receiver I don't think it's that preposterous to say he's not that far off just in Jefferson and he's doing these things part time

he's doing these things part time and he's probably going to be asked to try and master one in the league and I just think I was saying to John the other day when we did the corner podcast that the floor to me feels like the second or third best cornerback in the NFL, depending on our system and

circumstances, and the ceiling is changes the position for generation where kids grew up saying where kids grew up saying, I want to play cornerback because Travis Hunter played cornerback, and he might be more valuable at receiver with the way the league is, and being the eighth best receiver in the league might be more valuable,

but the upside is Hall of Fame and the position is not considered the same again because all these kids grew up saying, I want to play corner like Travis. I see it. I I see that vision, and that's why you just can't get in your head about thinking that it's in any way a problem or something to figure out that he's so good at. Well, that's a problem for the next nine, ten years while he is part of your organization, and as you said, hopefully on a Hall of Fame trajectory and just get him in my building. Because I don't think it's crazy to

compare him to Jefferson, because that's where I feel like, you can just watch the tape and see that he moves in such a way. And I'm glad you brought up the smarts because I think that's where the combination comes from. And I don't know if Antonio Brown was like, he's certainly not smart how he speaks to the public or how he acts. But there was something that he understood about football that I felt like he could move in a certain way that was just different than other people that combine his incredible athleticism with an understanding. understanding about the game as it was happening that allowed him to slow down as it was happening in a way that Justin Jefferson has too. I don't know why Antonio Brown is coming to my mind for Hunter. And I love what you said about the cornerback and his ceiling there. And so I don't

have an answer there, but it just seems obvious to me. He's easily the best prospect total in this class. And I'm glad you agree. I'm glad I also stayed away from your cornerback pot. Now I'm going to get into it, but I wanted it to be fresh hearing it first here. And I think we did an hour on him because I was so in love. So another thing with him that should be noticed is the effort he plays with is beyond belief. You think

about the life he's living, which is I have to play both sides at the field. I'm tired. This is very difficult. I'm also incredibly famous. I'm making a ton of money. I'm about to become a multimillionaire and set my family up for generations. And yet there are blown players because the defense he's playing on absolutely stinks

where he is chasing things down from one half of the field to the other side of the field from the the midfield line there's a ucf touchdown they score where it's a complete blown coverage it's got it's a wheel right up the left side line he is on the the right far sideline and he chases that thing to the one-yard line just doesn't pull it in in time and if i was him i'd be thinking at the 20 like i don't really need to do this this defense stinks i'm going to make a ton of money so he just has every single thing you could ever hope for the movement skills the intellect the talent playing the ball in flight I mean, the ability to go up and get it off the rim is just as good as you will ever, ever see from a prospect.

And I don't know where I come down on which side the ball he will play as a defensive coach. I would really like him to play on the corner side so I can recruit some kids and say, come and play like Travis. That'd be great. Maybe more valuable to play receiver, I guess, with where the league's at. But I just think he is, it's almost now, because Cam Ward is going to go first overall, almost being underplayed, what a sensational prospect we have here. And in a year lacking blue chips, I just don't know why he's not. runaway favorite to be second overall. Right. Or that him and Carter are on the same plane,

which no disrespect to Carter, who's a great, great prospect, is just, it's not the same to me. I guess I don't know why I needed to watch the tape to, like, to know that he does have that dog in him, Travis Hunter. A man that is playing 120 steps at the highest collegiate level. That alone, you don't even need to watch it. Like he, but man, he does. That's absolutely a good point.

Okay, we're going to fly through your players you want. want you and you don't want. Let's do it for about 15 minutes or whatever. But I do want to hear kind of going through. And if we've already mentioned them, then we can kind of skip it. But let's go through on the defensive line. Like we talk defensive tackles with the Michigan guys. Who, who's the guy you want? Who's the guy that you don't necessarily think draft value is going to match up with what you want. Yeah, the guy I want is Omar Norman Lott from Tennessee. And this is a guy who I think, I've not double-checked my math, but I think he played like three snaps a game, so I understand why people are concerned.

This is the... Also hasn't been mentioned on like a national podcast. Yeah, I don't think. Omar, Noren Lott. Like about a third round consensus pick. Not like totally off the radar, but not a I pick guy. Which I think, again, speaks this idea of you evaluate the prospect in a vacuum and not necessarily what will work and what the league is looking for.

If you can get an up fee, I mean, he has the best get-off of any interior prospect in the entire class. And he plays with more in-line power and this, what I call second surge, where you kind of engage in the block, then you've got a surge and go against. You don't just beat people out of the cleats in the interior, the offensive line. He, to me, drives through blockers better than Mason Graham does. And he's not at the same kind of pitch count. I think he played 700-something snaps over two seasons.

But if you just pull up even some of the pressure rates and the figures, it is as good as you will ever find. It is as good as you'll ever find in the last 10 years on third downs. You go and watch the Alabama tape. He is just roasting falls all the time on third down. He's playing for a Tennessee staff who won't put him on the field on early downs. but if you're looking for a in this world now where everyone's going to be trying to replicate the Eagles

how do we get a four-man pass rush? We don't really want to send pressure packages once we get to the playoffs. We need Twitch inside and this guy is juiced up more than anyone else in the class, frankly, along the interior. So that is a guy if I have a chance in the second round to steal him,

I think it's going to be an unbelievable pickup. He may only play 30 snaps a game for you, but there will be really, really valuable snaps. It sounds like an Eagles pick. Would he still be there at 64? Maybe. Maybe. you, according to these consensus boards, but maybe there's some, some people out there.

Let's just call Graham the guy we didn't want, because he's a profile. He's a high profile guy, and we already talked about him enough. Edge guys that you would want on your team, or an edge guy. Ezoroku, Boston College is Donovan Azaroku. I think that he's funny in the sense that he, so he's a smaller, quick off the ball, kind of swoop artist around the edge, but he has every single kind of moon put together. And it's funny because Liatu-Latu, when he came out last season, he kind of created new ways to rush the passer. They were like not traditional pass-rushing techniques.

And I think there's some LATU in Azaraku, but a lot of what he does is the traditional mechanics. He just has everything so refined that he is bringing to the game 12, 13 different moves, some that you've only really seen like a Danil Hunter run. It's as though he like watches Daniel Hunter the week before. And a sudden he's like, oh, I might try that out next weekend. And immediately it's perfect. So there's a level of detail and craft in there. which is why I think he was, what do you have, 16 and a half sacks last season.

He's not the best athlete off the ball. He's not the biggest athlete. I think he's going to get ding-to-go in the second round, maybe because he just doesn't quite have the measurable teams looking for. But if I'm someone like Buffalo looking at the foot of that first round, saying we want pass-rush. And I know they want bigger, thicker, ashrushes, so maybe it's not the best example.

But we just want someone who's going to come in, no out-to-rush-the-passer, like a veteran from the get-go and be an impactful playoff player, where maybe he only plays 25 snaps as a subrushar really on. I think as a rock who he doesn't have, you know, a lot of these teams are hunting and searching for guys who can kind of concave in the pocket. It's like we want our to empower where we can just compress the pocket.

That's what a lot of these guys are looking for. He's not going to be that for you. But I think if you can scheme it up where you get him 15 one-on-one shots a game, I'd be really surprised if he isn't closing one of those. And for a team looking to go in the playoffs, that would just be invaluable. Yeah, that's another potential Eagles pick. Not that he's a one for one for a Graham, but a branding Graham, but undersized. And certainly I think they might be looking at edge early in this draft class to start restocking.

That would be a fun one. I could see him going, it's tough. This class, the same thing is happening that's always happening, which is just like a consensus forms. And it seems like it's going to be logical. And to be fair, the last couple drafts, for the most part, the first rounds, they haven't been predictable exactly where people go, but they actually have been a little predictable of like the 26, 20s. 27 guys people are getting right in their mock draft are going to be in the first round.

This one, in theory, is going to be a lot more unpredictable. So to me, I mean, he could go as early as the bucks or something like that. Yeah, it's difficult, particularly with the defensive line. I mean, I have 35 draftable grade for just interior defensive alignment. I don't know where the last time there was anything close to that. And then there's probably going to be about 22, 24 draftable edge defenders before probably the sixth round. That is just a lot of people to try and get off the board.

And there will be, I think, wiggle room within that because I think. think that top 12 of edge defenders in particular there's a real large range right on how do you feel about james pierce for example is he a almost undraftable player is he the third best player in the class who is he for you is he the one you wouldn't want he is the one that i would not want in my building yeah okay why is that just not like the the bag of moves or i yeah i like uh passers who know what they're doing when they rush the passer and not just kind of upfield athletes um who test really well but don't quite know how to play football on saturday is or something this.

If they're strong enough, I'm into it. Like, I'll always defend that Marcus Davenport pick. Not the trade-up, so then I don't defend it at all. But just like he could be a good NFL parent. But I don't see Pierce having that sort of like next-level strength or anything like that. Let's go back to cornerback. Actually, while before we move on from defensive tackle, what other question I had? Now, I'm really slowing things on, was if you just took the 15 best plays of Walter Nolan,

who's defensive tackle, potential first round pick here. How many defensive players in this class would be ahead of like the best 15 plays of Walter Nolan? Just like you made the best 15 of all these guys. Walter Lowland might be my number one defensive lineman. I don't know. It's pretty crazy. I have him in a tier as his own as interior defensive line.

Prospect just because the movement skills are so beyond measure. I think he's a borderline terrible football player right now and actually a dangerous and reckless football player. He lowers his head on contact constantly and that's a real concern. But he just moves like nobody else in the class for me. At that size, we've true knockback, rock the pocket power. Like it's really difficult to get guys inside unless it's like Vitavia, Vince Wilford, just collapse the pocket.

Usually it's like a press, right? You push people back. You drop the center into the lap of the quadsback or you hit a guard and you kind of crack and fall back is what you call it, where you knock someone back, fall off, and land for the sack. You don't really see the pocket get detonated a whole bunch inside, unless it's like JJ Watt coming inside. He drops the pocket, and he's smaller than all those guys I mentioned.

So I think if you can figure out how to get the football player together and you can actually get some technical refinement in there, then he could be truly, truly special one. It's just a long, long way from the top 15 you mentioned to the middle 15 are undraftable. That's the concern. It's not even the bottom 15. The middle 15 are, like, deeply, deeply troubling.

But the top 15, I'm with you. If you just take those, I would say I would have him just behind Hunter probably. Right. Yeah, that'd be like number two. That's insane. Which is why we're not allowed to gamble here at NFL Daily. But whatever the over under on where Walter Nolan draft, you know, stock is, I am taking him getting drafted earlier.

Because if I was trying to think of like, oh, who's the stunning guy that the Jags took at five or something? I could see it. Why not? Because of exactly what you just said, what I just said, because the best plays, just the pure athleticism, are that crazy. And consensus board, I just checked. He's at 26.

I just feel like a guy in this class where teams are going to look for some upside in the top 10, like he is kind of an under the radar guy who could go top 10. All right. Who is a cornerback that you would want to draft? and who would you, you know, you don't think it matches up value-wise in this class? I think Trey Amos is the cornerback who should probably be discussed in like the 12 to 15 range. I think he's the smartest corner of a lot of these guys. He plays legit bump and run all over the field coverage.

The best press technique, I think, of any of the guys in this class, probably the smartest on the fly corner outside of Travis Hunter in this class. They run a lot of different stuff there and he's got it all down. so he would be the one where he's completely, to me, team independent. He can play in any system you want, any scheme you want. You're not just looking at Will Johnson, where you would have to be a really, really zone every team to be intrigued in Will Johnson.

Amos can just slot in anywhere. Okay, this is a guy who, 40th on the consensus board, another old miss guy like Walter Nolan. Man, they had a lot of... They did. It's amazing that the King, Kingsbury, Kiffin once again, somehow he had maybe the second best cornerback in the class, Maybe the best interior defensive lineman.

I think princely you, the edge defender, should be a first round pick. He's probably not going to be. And somehow Kiffin couldn't figure out a way. And Jackson Dart, who I hear apparently, is going to go in the top 10 or at least be the third quarterback off the board. Somehow he didn't make it to the playoff.

Although I will say, Quinchan Jodkins liked him better at Old Miss. He was one where I didn't get the tape totally until I watched the Old Miss. And then I was like, okay, I get it, I get it. That's an interesting one, Trey Amos, because 40th on a consensus board. But he is one.

where between the reporters like Daniel Jeremiah who are plugged in, he's not a reporter, but draft analysts and some of the reporters, he is someone, I have a feeling that teams disagree with the draft Nix the most on. So I think there are a lot of teams that agree with you and see him in that range. And so that's another one, that whatever the over underline is, maybe it'll move by the time they actually post these, I would probably take that he's going to get drafted before most people think. Yeah, he's the most Sean McDermott corner in this class, and the bills are right there,

and I feel like Sean will be lobbying. And that's a big need for them, too. I think the second cornerback spot. Who's, give me a cornerback maybe you're not as into. Chivonne Ravel, who was being billed as a first round prospect. I think that's come down. I've not checked the consensus more recently to see where he's being projected to go. Yeah, probably right on the border.

I think a lot of people would have him in the first round of you. Yeah, I just, Bill, there's a kind of smaller school athletic freak, but he's coming off the ACL term when you watch the film. He's not actually an athletic freak at smaller school level, and there's a lot of plays in the ball, but there is an awful lot of coverage busts and breakdowns, and it is purely like just go by feel. He is a seabull, attack ball player, and often just corrupting completely the defensive system. I actually had to go and ask someone at the school some of the concepts they were running to see if he was making like an assignment error or they were running a defense I'd never seen before, which is like lock. one player in man coverage, but on the perimeter, which is not normally what you would do, and then zoning the entire rest at the field

and allowing that guy to travel. It was really like Matrix head spinning stuff, and I was informed, no, he just decided to do his own thing on several reps and go and trying to attack the ball. So you get a 6-3-193 guy who's supposed to be Tariq Wullen is kind of where people are building him as

and people don't want to miss on not taking Wullen in like the second round, first round, and letting him slide all the way down. I just don't think he is that kind of athletic difference maker. Yeah, that's the thing, again, for my vantage point, when I watch the smaller school guys, or even guys like the Colorado guys in a conference, it's not as strong. If you're going to be billed as that guy, you want to see them standing out. And I'm with you. I'm glad you brought him up because I got home from the Dodgers game.

My son's been begging to go to the Dodgers. We saw a bit of a stinker, 4-2 loss last night. And I wanted to get through as many of these defensive guys last minute. So I did watch a couple of the Ravel games. And I was in, I was just like, I don't know. It doesn't, I don't know enough to feel much of any way about this, but I don't totally see it where he was like popping off the screen. So now I'm glad I stayed up late to watch an East Carolina cornerback

coming off a torn ACL. But he probably is going to be a second round pick at the very lowest. So an interesting prospect to keep an eye on. Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now, Drew Franklin. And this is NFL cover zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different.

Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL.

Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. What's up everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. Every week, we study the tape, talk to decision makers, and share the insights you won't find anywhere else. It's the kind of conversation that connects the dots, from college football prospects to the NFL stars of tomorrow.

We break down the draft, analyze matchups, and evaluate how teams put it all. all together on game day. Plus, we dig in the coaching strategies, roster construction, and the trends that shape the league year after year. Whether you're a diehard fan or just love understanding the game on a deeper level, we give you the full picture.

If you want insight that goes beyond the box score, this podcast is for you. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant And I'm Michael Fiorio

And together we host the NFL fantasy football podcast Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast Your ultimate source for player news Draft Tips and winning strategies Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet We've got the insight to help you crush your opponents Listen to the NFL fantasy football podcast

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. All right, out of all the positions we haven't gone through one by one, I'll just give you an open-ended choice here. Any players that you want to get in, we'll start with the positive and then we'll go with the negative,

but any players at the other positions like linebacker safety, I think that's really all that we've left off, that you just are, that are Ollie Connolly guys. Yeah, my day on Henley-TM linebacker, my guy this season, is Tyrene Powell from Rookers, who I don't even know if he's going to get drafted. I haven't looked at the consensus board, but I think he has by far the best and quickest eyes at the lineback position, and he is absolutely ginormous. And the concern on him is, I think he's 6-5, 240 somewhere in that range.

And the concern is, well, can he actually move and twist and change directions as linebackers must do? I don't have those concerns at all. So I think that if you're looking for, I really think you can go and find starting linebackers now in the fourth or fifth round because it's just a position where you have to have patience anyway and it's probably going to take you two years. I'd rather get a guy with that level of know-how and understanding already with that athletic profile where bring a 6-5 guy in and you get yourself into Devondre

Campbell territory in a couple of seasons. Everyone else is going to be looking at you going, wow, how did you get that guy in the fifth round out of rook? So Tyrene Pall is my like really late sleeper lineback. If Tyrene Pall goes on day three to your team, we should stand up and celebrate. Okay. I am not being rude here if you're watching on YouTube, like counting numbers with my mouth while you're talking here.

I'm trying to go on the consensus board to find out what rank he is for linebackers. I came up with 28. He's at 329 overall. So you heard it here first. I love a Tyrene Powell shout out. And that's a good shout out. If you had, if you had Deion Henley, this is your position. This is your guy.

I will now be tracking Tyrene Powell's career a lot closer for the rest of it. Wait, you mentioned Devandre Campbell as if it was a bad thing, like how he is now? No, no. When he first got the Green Bay and we get this long-gone tarradactal

in the middle of our defense. Okay, I was hoping so. Because I once wrote 500 words on how well Dion Jones and Devondre Campbell were playing at the halftime of the Falcons Patriots Super Bowl watching those two guys in person. I was like, I think Dionne Jones and Devondry Campbell are the difference in this game.

They are just playing absolutely outrageous football right now. And then it didn't hold up, but nice career. It's Vonjie Campbell. Although he might have talked his way out of the league with the way he finished with the 49ers. All right, let's finish up with the, I hate to finish negative. But anyone that kind of caught your eye

as you're evaluating and you're somewhat aware of how they're viewed that weren't Ollie Connolly guys. Yeah, I think the. Malachi Stark's one is tough for me. I just don't see the player that everyone else seems to see. I think he's almost built, like, morphing, move him around safety. And it's just an awful lot of bad tape. If you just go and watch the Notre Dame tape on its own, it's like hilariously bad.

You just start laughing, being like, this is a top 20 draft pick? Are you kidding me? All over the place, confused about what's happening in the backfield, confused about where he should be on the field. He is a splash playmaker, and so I'm sure a team will take. him somewhere in the 25 range maybe a little bit higher because they believe they can get a kind of pseudo slot corner who can maybe play on the back end for you as a safety. I just don't think he's the kind of athletic phenom that he was built to be.

And I think there's a little bit of just helmet scouting, Georgia, next guy, you know, in line, the next cab off the rank. And I just didn't seem like that. I think that Kevin Winston at Penn State safety, I think is by far the best safety in the class. Ooh, that's spicy. I think he's being billed in the second round, third round range. but if you want a true middle of the field,

rangy, come down and bang type guy, think of Jukon Briscoe where it's like, you want him close to the line of scrimmage, you can be a true blitzer for you, but he's solid enough to hang on the back end so you can get into cool rotational stuff. Winston missed a lot of the season with a Tor ACL, so I think he slipped down people's board,

but if you just go by the film, Starks versus Winston, it's not particularly close for me. Yeah, maybe in looking at, I'm looking for where Winston even is, Yeah, like a late third round consensus board out of Penn State. All right, I need to check him out then before drafty. Maybe it was because I had Malachi Stark and Jaday Barron in the same ballpark to me because they're both playing some slot or whatever, but watching those two back to back,

not that they're playing the exact same position, but Jaday Barron to me is a very exciting player and Malachi Starks, the safety out of Georgia, who, yeah, you mentioned has been mocked sometimes as high as like the dolphins at 13. I do think he's a little bit of the, I could be wrong. I don't think it's quite as consensus, but similar to Trey Amos, but in the reverse that I don't think teams are quite as high

as some of the moxters had him. So maybe he is a guy that could slip. Do you like today, Barron, before we leave, by the way? I do like today, Barron. I don't get any concern about, oh, where are you going to play him? I think he's really, really solid and comfortable. And basically every alignment they ask him to play, which is some dime linebacker,

some perimeter cornerback, some deep safety. That sounds like an amazing piece to me. In a draft way, if you can't go and hunt one of the blue chip prospects, if I can get a guy who can fill in five different roles for me, and he's a really effective blitzer, both inside and coming off the edge too. That is a guy where you look up in week 12, week 13. Everyone's like, wow, they just got an impactful fine player for like eight years. And we took a big swing on an edge rush who we're not sure can ever play.

Yeah, he's someone, Janae Barron from Texas, cornerback, who, yeah, can play a few different positions. he's one where if you're not counting Hunter exactly as a cornerback because he can do so many both things, he can play receiver too then he's probably the one that I'd feel certainly safest about. I mean, I would feel safer than Will Johnson to

me. I don't think Barron has the turn and roll ability of some of the other guys. And so if you get caught tight split, we got whoever coming out of there, we got Puga Nakua and it's a two-way go. I think that's where you get in trouble. And it's just so difficult to go and find those corners

who can really rev and then have the intangibles and instincts that Baron does. So Barron, I think it's like, I mean, who can't do that? Jalen Ramsey can't do that either. I mean, nobody can do that.

No, it's only Satan and Gonzalez. Those are our two great hopes and hopefully Hunter. And we're hoping for some more, maybe Amos. But I think Barron is a little bit more, I don't think that I know he's being mocked

in some place in the top 10 because it's just like excellent corner, so therefore a valuable position must go up. I don't think he plays the game in a way that his like maximal value is he's going to shut down, and receivers for us. I think he's way more of like a plug holes, figure things out, makes the scheme better, makes the scheme more diverse, kind of a false multiplier on defense that allows

our blue chip players to go play their best ball. Yeah, like every defensive back, it would be exciting to see him with Brian Flores there at 24. And I kind of think they, if I had to guess, I would guess defensive back for the Vikings just based on their current needs. So he would be a fun fit there. He's typical of this class, which to wrap it up, which is that that's what DJ's been saying too. It's not a, it's probably a draft where you shouldn't be searching for upside. You should be just searching for some guys who are going to help you, like a Jaday Baron. So if he, if he goes higher than you think, it's like, I'll live with it in this class just because like he'll be a solid player for you. And it's that, it's that kind of draft. What's funny about

searching for the upside is there are guys like Andreas Peebles going in the sixth round. They are just as quick off the ball as some of these guys up in the first round. The upside guys are all the way. Like said, 35 guys, the interior defensive line, you would be pretty happy about having selected just depending on the value. And there are guys you can really fly off the ball deep down the drafts. If you just want one gap up the field burst, there's like 15 of them waiting for you on late day two, day three. You don't have to go and hunt for those guys and say, we need James Pearce off the edge. No one can move like that guy. There's like five or six them waiting on day three. You can fly off the ball too. Yeah. And if you want to hear about

them all, Ali and John Ledyard, have it covered on the read optional podcast. They both write separately, but yeah, if you go to Ali's substack, it is, it's one of the best out there. And it goes, it goes deep. Although I don't know if you go 35 deep. That's just the content idea for you that you should do like a 35 deep, my top 35 draftable guys and make it like,

based on your guys' cadence, it would be roughly seven and a half hours. It would be amazing. Yeah, John, John doesn't let me get, down to 35. I've asked him to. I've said, please. I think that would be fun. Just do a bit. I know it's not your bit, but do a bit and put a time limit on it. That, like, guys, 20 through 35, you're only allowed a certain amount of time, like three minutes or whatever it is. But just, I mean, I've been watching the Iowa State Revers, you know, I've been digging a junior college, but I've been digging everywhere for talent for people. Um, there's a lot of it this year.

I understand. There's not, there's probably eight really talented players. Wait, what is the school you just said? The Iowa State Revers, Hunter Decker's, quarter. the back, lefty, absolute canon. Yeah, he's probably going to go and drafted maybe in the seventh round. Is that the most random school that you watch? Yeah, I would feel like if I watch that many guys, I would just have to talk about them or else, what am I doing? What was the point? You've just made me question my life. Well, no, no. That was profound. You'll be as, you'll be as prepared for these guys at the next level. I'm, I'm more interested. I'll be real. I mean, I'm really interested in this draft, but I'm also interested, you just mentioned a lot too.

I want to go, it's the time of year. I want to start going. back and look like, okay, Latu wasn't quite the guy. Maybe didn't have the rookie season. I thought I want to go back and start watching some of those guys. But that's for May. We'll try to have you on later in the off season for some sort of project like that. That would be fun. Again, check out Ali Connolly. Appreciate you, Ali. And we will be back on Tuesday afternoon. So just to let you guys know that are listening, we're kind of in an afternoon cadence. Sometimes we're an overnight cadence. We're going to be posting in the afternoon West Coast time all week. We have Jordan Rodriguez and Colleen Wolf in for our next.

So that is going to be a fun one. Only, what, 10 days left until the NFL draft. When we're going 35 deep at defensive line, you know football is back. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to Six, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies to evaluating team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents.

Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. This is an IHeart podcast. Thank you.