NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - What Schemes Are Next With Jourdan Rodrigue and Nate Tice

Episode Date: July 15, 2024

Gregg Rosenthal is joined by Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic and Nate Tice of Yahoo! Sports to get big picture before camp starts, wondering what schematic changes are coming throughout the league in 2024. The show starts with talk about the pistol formation (03:00) and what it opens up for quarterbacks like Matthew Stafford. The show talks defense and the effect the Mike McDonald coaching tree is having across the NFL (21:40) and more! Note: time codes approximate. NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. Welcome to NFL day. I'm Greg Rosenthal. Beyond lucky today to be joined by Jordan Roderig of The Athletic with me in the studio, the Chris Wesleyan podcast studio. And somewhere in the sunny environs of Las Vegas, Nate Tice of Yahoo!

Sports. I'm really excited about this show. We've been doing it a little bit here. And as you hopefully have learned, if you're a listener, we're going to have a bunch of different flavors of this show. Different shows will have different flavors. and this show's flavor, Nate, is dork. That's our, that's our flavor.

Let's get into schemes. It's good to see you, buddy. You look very rested and you look, you look handsome, and I haven't seen you since the Super Bowl. You're kind of glowing a little bit. The wife hasn't killed me yet. That's what's going on. That's why I think I have a lot of takes pent up,

and maybe that's what I'm glowing with. I'm bursting at the seams with takes. That was a very fun. is that from like the NFL films archive there? We're leaning hard into NFL films. Yeah, that's not the autumn wind.

That was like the preamble to it. Like beforehand, it was the summer wind. I can't do that either. That's the not sure. But no, I'm happy to be here. I usually get like nerd or anything,

but one time I got described as like it was actually it was an old co-host with Dane and I, Dan Brugler, he was like, oh, our draft geeks. And I felt like I almost got insulted there. Yeah, like, yeah, geek.

You know, that's a step-belo nerd. You're none of those things. You're a tall, strapping, former D-1 athlete, and, you know, back up to Russell Wilson. So that's more, at least athletically, as far as I know, Jordan, than me or you have accomplished. As far as you know. I don't know.

I don't know. You don't know. You don't know all about my life. It's great to have you back in the studio to Jordan. You're here, obviously, for our first show. And I wanted to get you back for this show, because I just felt like you and Nate are the two perfect people to talk about like what's coming next, what we're interested in in terms of NFL schemes.

That's why today is the flavor of dork. And I mean that in the best way possible. Like I love this stuff and it's a good time of year, I think, to talk about what trends we've seen maybe on the field and what we're looking forward to. And I left it pretty open-ended. Nate, I know you have a piece coming up on Yahoo. sports about this. So you are very well prepped. You also have a podcast coming up on Yahoo Sports in a couple of weeks. So I'm really looking forward to listening to that. But it can be league-wide.

It can be a specific team. It can be coach. It can be anything. And Jordan, I want to you to get us going. Well, I'm excited to start because I'm going to steal Nate's answer from him immediately. You know what I'm going to say? I think I know. I think so. Okay. At the same time, ready? One, two, three. Pistol. The ramps? Oh, you ramps pistol. I was going to say Rams pistol. Okay. So, okay. I knew you're going to point. I knew you're going to bring, someone's going to bring this up. So I have a bullet point on this. So I'm ready. I'm ready for the pistol. Well, okay. So I'm not going to be the person who comes on here and talks about the Rams all the time. I do want the listeners to know that. We're talking about a lot of different things. But

this was extremely fascinating to watch and cover last year. The Rams started deploying significant amounts of significant amounts of pistol formation, especially in the latter half of the season. They ended up with like about a hundred snaps by all said and done. They didn't just start it after the buy. You saw a little like test of concept earlier in the season, but they really sort of spammed it later in the season. It basically allowed Matthew Stafford to do what he likes, which is be a shotgun quarterback and a dropback quarterback,

while also having the entire run menu involved, like at his disposal because the under center run menu was, um, you can keep that, um, in the play sheet and in the call sheet. if you're in the pistol, even though you're in sort of

what looks a little bit like the gun with the running back immediately behind the quarterback. What was really good about this was it kind of helped them get back to some of their zone runs. Nate, I know you wrote really well about this over at Yahoo.

I love that piece that you wrote. It was super helpful in like parsing some of this that we were watching last year. I think it's next because it works. I think you're going to see a lot of teams using it because it works. The dolphins use it a lot. The falcons used it a lot.

but when you see those teams that, you know, dolphins and Rams specifically that other teams are studying their cutups and their run packages and their sequencing and all of that, you're going to see teams copy. And I think this is a really good example of being able to blend this concept specifically to not only keep your entire menu open to you, to not give tells to aggressive defenses, but also to kind of just keep adding things back in

once they shifted to, like, the duo team for the first time in the last several years, they were able to get back into some of their zone. Explain that to Listers. Even just explain to Listerers what, what Pistol is in general. Yeah. So Pistol is when, I mean, it literally looks like a pistol. It's when the running back is lined up directly behind the quarterback. And the quarterback is, in this case, you know, four steps or so behind the center.

So instead of purely under center where you also see the running back lined up behind the quarterback, the quarterback has some space between the center and himself. And instead of the shotgun, where the running back is off to one side of the quarterback, this sort of blends the two together. And by doing so, the defenders can't really tell which direction the running back is going to go. And it's a little bit closer to formation. So the play can develop quicker than if it were just a pure shotgun. And if the back was offset, then the defender has a tell not only for some of the blitz and the pickups and things like that, but also which direction maybe the gaps are going to unfold because the running back is literally to one side.

And then, you know, you can keep running things like play action. A lot of coaches don't like to run. Nate, you can elaborate on this. A lot of coaches don't like to run a full, like, play action menu out of shotgun. It just limits them. But Pistol, you have a full menu open to yourself. And then you can also get to some zone stuff a little bit easier that way. Because, again, you're not just on one side of the quarterback as the running back.

And I love that the Rams, and we've seen this with the entire Sean McVeigh career in Los Angeles. But even with Matthew Stafford, who's such an established quarterback and has things that he does well. Like, they change what they do a lot. And they, they don't stay static. You can't stay static. And it's pretty cool. And I know Stafford's one of your favorite quarterbacks to see him evolving and doing stuff that you haven't seen before. It's not like they're the first team to ever run pistol, but the league is just different now than it used to.

I mean, the pistol, of course, famously created by Tyler Thigpin in Kansas City. No, I'm joking. I say, I know, but I say, kind of a fun one. And obviously Kaepernick, uh, with the 49ers. Yeah, people have done it. Like, this isn't new. I don't say it's next because it's new.

It's not new. But it's all, you see it a lot in the college. Everything, everything in the NFL has been done in some way before. But the way you're talking about marrying the running game. Like what, what gets you going about this watching Stafford and in this evolution, Nate? Yeah.

It's, uh, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's merging two worlds like Jordan was kind of alluded to. And, uh, I thought the, the, the most important part is that defenses are really smart now. Like they, I mean, they've been smart before, but like, I think they're just the level of defensive play is higher than ever. And when teams, I mean, shoot, when Payne Manning was with the Colts, like they were like the first team to be 50% shotgun. And that was insane at the time. Wow. Like that was like crazy.

They were 50%. And now most of the teams are easily over 50. Some teams are over 90% in the shotgun. And okay, when we have standard runs, okay, if the runnerback is too away from the tight end, it's all based on what the titan is where the runnerback is. So if he's away from the tight end, they only can run this run, this run, this run. Okay, if we can limit it to rock paper scissors and they only run rock and paper, okay, we can really make it easier on our defenders. So when you get to the pistol, it just opens up the menu, like Jordan was glued to. And you saw that with the Colin Kaepernick stuff when he was at Nevada.

And then the 40-N-Ires kind of copied it because they wanted to get the QB run game involved. So now instead of just everything being zone read, now you can kind of get same side looks. So because the runnerback is downhill and where the quarterback is reading. is to a different side than it would be on zone. And then you got to the next time we really saw a lot of pistol was Peyton Manning's last year with the Broncos because Gary Kuback wanted to run zone and Peyton was too old to be under center.

So they went to... So they went to the pistol. So they moved them back to make it easier. That's a real thing that happened. Sounds a bit familiar. Yeah, sounds a bit familiar. Exactly. It shows it's flexible if like Colin Kaepernick

kind of out of the womb as an NFL player and Peyton Manning can do it. You don't have to be able to be able to do it. to move as a quarterback for this to work is what Nate's getting at here. You're cheating four yards. And but I wonder you get and this is where I think it's what's cool with the Rams version is I always think a pistol. It's like, oh, it's to open up the QB run game a little bit.

That's why you can just open up some more of the stuff. But when you watch it with Stafford and like Jordan was saying, the drop back passing game, it's now creating under center looks out of pistol. So it's easier on Stafford, but it doesn't have to be under center. But now you're taking away the tells for the defense. Because now if he's in what they call a home position,

which is like an eye formation position, but now it's shotgun, you know, pistol. Now the defense can't, I can't, this linebacker doesn't know if I blitz or not because I don't know if the runback's releasing to my side on his route. We don't know if the run game is this. So it's really the first and second down looks that this is where I thought

the Rams really cranked it up. The Ravens game, I'm sure Jordan can speak to like that game you saw it a lot because they're trying to mess with defenses there are blitz happy and simulated pressure happy because they're trying to those guys now can't key in on something. Okay, the backs away from the tight end. I'm Patrick Queen. I know I'm blitzing now.

Yeah. Okay. Well, now he's behind the quarterback. All right, we got to wait until the snap of the ball to see what side he goes. So you're just creating half seconds. Yeah. And those add up over time. And just from a layman's point of view, for me, it's like the pistol accomplishes both things.

It's like it's in between in a way that you can really do everything. And it's exciting. And I love that you have just like an absolute fireballer behind center still and seeing the best of Matthew Stafford. And I just hope he stays healthy. And I just hope he is like he was last. year because when that was all happening and my daughter's a ramshan, I just had this feeling. I was like, ooh, I actually think they have like a non-insignificant chance to win the Super Bowl this year. Like things have to go right. But if you play the NFC playoffs out, I think they make

the Super Bowl like a couple times at least. And it just didn't happen for them. They lost a close game. It's like, I just hope they can have Stafford at this age that healthy and playing that well all season again. And I'm hopeful. And we look forward to that. In the meantime, I want you guys all to listen to these just beautiful commercials. We will be back off to the break, and we're finally going to get to all of Nate's points. He has so many points. In the heat of battle, your squad relies on you.

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Back on NFL Daily, and we've reached the portion of the program where it's just time to let Nate cook. We've got to hear it. We got to hear what you got. What's your best scheme note that you want to start with? This was going to be my two strike pitch. Yeah. But I'll start the bat with it. This is, I see your two safety looks.

I see the top down defenses. And I raise you three safety looks. And not just, I'm not talking just big nickel. I'm talking three safety shells. And I know there is a large British fan base of this show. But they would love to know that this is very much like the three centerback looks that you're seeing in soccer, you know, they've seen the last five, ten years kind of proliferate a little bit.

But the two defenses that I think are either going to be the best examples of this. There might be others that maybe I'm just not focusing on, maybe like the Raiders or something, but the Cardinals defense with defense coordinator, Nick Rawless, who's 30 years old. And actually, I went to high school with his two brothers, which is the small world. And his brother is a former WWE wrestler named Brawold. So this like marries your world very well, basically. It's so weird. It's so weird.

little Nick is a defense coordinator in the NFL, like great for him. And he's doing a lot of fun stuff. So it's kind of, yeah. But, and then also Shane Bowen, defense coordinator for the Giants. So I think these two are the best examples of what I'm going to be talking about here. But we, Jordan, you guys, you already hinted at this point. So it was perfect. We're talking about micro reactions before the snap.

So the Shanhan offense especially. So the teams that do the best, the Packers, Rams, 49ers, the Falcons last year, which maybe the Steelers this year, the dolphins, these teams have really, really weaponized motion, the Cardinals offense, that they're trying to get you hot at the snap of the ball, gets you out leverage, get you out of position, you being the defense, getting all 11 defenders off of the same page. And how defense is kind of counteracted that is quarters, cover four, two safety looks. We've talked a lot about it.

You know, talked a lot of there's been rise and fall of another head coach already who read, actually a couple of them that were the leaders of this types of coverage. But the ones that I think kind of took this and kind of, who are you talking about? here, someone that worked right across the street. Maybe the other Los Angeles team. Yeah. I mean, you can put,

you can put Brandon Staley's name out there. The stalification. It's okay. That came and went. But so what they were trying to do with the quarter's looks was is top down. Keep everything in front of us. We can adjust with our two safeties. And if you want a motion, you want to shift,

our safeties would kind of be a safety. You know, fill in from the back, fill in from top down. We're not going from the line of scrimmage backwards now. We're going from the safety spots downwards. And when you watch this Cardinals defense and the Titans defense last year who bone was defense coordinator of now giants they were taking guys like

buda baker and he was a true what i would call monster back which is fine ball the sea ball get ball kind of player like a true rover a guy that could just move around bob sanders you know yeah what they did was they did was they really though what they did was rather than have the slot player or the other linebacker by the mike you know linebacker and rather than have him as a safety all the way back, they kind of put them in between the linebacker and the safety. This is kind of in between spot. And what that allows them to do is now rather than having a guy from the line scrimmage work backwards or now we have to bump everybody because of a motion at

the snap of the ball, Buda Baker, whoever this roving player is, he can fill in where they away from the motion towards the motion. He can move, be a slot player. He could be a Tampa 2 player like Brian Erlacker. He can be the deep safety. He could be a blitzer. So they created this kind of motion piece, this move piece. And the Titans were doing this a little bit last year.

Roger McCreary was an interesting player. He's doing a little bit of this and the safeties they had in Tennessee last year. So it's really interesting. I'm curious and more defenses copy it. The Cardinals had one of the worst defenses last year. I was going to say, I want to kind of bring that up that like these two defenses, you know,

not that effective. But they weren't. The process was clear. We've covered this. I see what they're terrible. The process was clear. I see what I see what they're trying to do. And I think more defenses are going to copy that because we have seen more

weaponized slot players, Brian Branch, Devin Weatherspoon, Kyle Hamilton, you know, you saw a little bit of this with the Ravens last year, but I think this kind of like true move that guy into the middle of the field and into that in between area, that I think is going to get copied a little bit more. Might be the whole major of the defense outside of these two or maybe a couple others, but I think more teams are going to go, hey, this gets our best guys out there. And I think it's a great answer to all that motion stuff, all the other things. And it doesn't make you predictable. And this is the last thing. watching the Cardinals defense against the 409ers it was in Arizona that was kind of a game that was kind of like okay I see what you're doing here it takes it changes the pre-snap and post-snap look for the quarterback he can't just go okay it's covered two oh it's single high

oh it's man coverage now he has to go all right where's Buda Baker going wait where's the other safety going again we just talked about micro reactions those little quarter half seconds add up it helps the defensive pass rush get there and maybe makes the quarterback go to the wrong spot or hold on to the ball for a half second.

So I just see this kind of freedom of the defense and these funky looks. This is the motion for the defense. The motion is shifting of offense. This is their version on defense. And I think everyone can see more and more of it. Yeah, I call that because it's kind of, it's evolving, right? Because you've seen a lot of teams put their hybrid safety or their hybrid corner in a bigger nickel. You see the star was really popular.

I mean, again, the star has been around forever. I'm not saying it's new, but it was repopularized a couple of years ago. But I kind of call this the shooting star because they can float. Like they can float across. Like they can, they're not confined necessarily to the rest of the. And who are good examples of that? I mean, we're probably going to see it. You know, like we're, yeah.

I mean, we're probably going to see more, I would think. Yeah, we'll see, we'll see more of these guys. Like, I mean, the slot, because it's just happening what's in college and we just get these guys propping up into the NFL. So, I mean, shoot, just last year, the rookie and second year players last year, there's just all these slot guys. And like, so they're all dynamic blitzers. They're all good in coverage. They're all good tacklers.

So it's become like not, it's called the star in certain defenses, but the slot, the nickel, whatever. But it's literally becoming a star position, like where you put your most dynamic player because they can, they can just do so much. We love a double meaning. We love a double meaning. And so rather than, so what they said was rather than have our star just only be in the slot and kind of be. predictable that he only could do three things. All right, let's move him like a helicopter. Let's move him to the middle so where he can rove any spot that we need him.

I originally was going to call him a sweeper like in soccer. I like that too. It doesn't work perfect, but it works close enough for kind of what they're doing. And we've seen more three safety looks just in general, certainly the Cowboys with Dan Quinn and the Patriots last year. And it just makes sense. And this is a show about big league wide trends and adjusting and how the game is always evolving. And part of the issues with modern defenses is just these linebackers getting

attacked and in coverage. And so one solution is just to have another safety be that linebacker essentially. I mean, like, I don't understand it as well as you guys do. But that's essentially it. It's a lighter, faster league, but you still need to have the physicality to hold up in the running game. And this is one possibility for that. I want to ask you about like, Do you think the, and I know you were thinking about this. Go ahead. I don't mind. I'm sorry.

Nate, you got me thinking about it. Like, I remember when the idea for non-coverage confined nickel players is to make them an unavoidable player. So the quarterback sees them and automatically looks elsewhere, which to Nate's point, forces a little bit of hesitation. So I think that is also one part of it, that you've seen in defenses already in the way that they move

and manipulate, you know, whoever the slot player is. But with this, it's really interesting because they literally can, um, uh, like orbit the front seven essentially.

And, and these teams that really capitalize on the middle of the field, well, they can also like sort of float, you know, shooting star, like they can float sort of pre-snat. When I was mentioning the walk-around defense,

I mean, you mentioned the cardinals when, you know, the walk around, it kind of just like, oh, we're shuffling around. all of a sudden, boom, they're in their snap look versus necessarily rotating post-snap.

They kind of were moving and sort of like, oh, is there a game here today? And then all of a sudden, boom, they're in this look. And then the quarterback's like, oh, the player in the void where I was looking is in that void. So I got to look elsewhere. And it's all about the quarterback always says make the defense hesitate just a little bit longer. Well, this is to Nate's point, making the offense allegedly in their hopes, hesitate just a little bit longer, look deeper in the progression, look somewhere else, look for the layup, look for something that is not targeting that player,

as long as that proof of concept is there. They can make the play on the ball. They're, you know, and like to that point, I do think we're going to see more of that. I think we're going to see more of that because everything in this league is built around stopping the pass and now adjusting to the pre-snap eye candy and the pre-snap movement in ways that aren't just, you know, playing landmarks as a defense because you can't necessarily always play the motion itself. but you can still understand the tendencies of the offense of where that ball is going to end up on the field. But teams are even messing with that now too.

So you have to have to have these players. I feel like if you want good PR as a defensive coordinator, you just do like the walk around defense. You know, because you always get pop for that. That's like every couple of years, someone gets super into it for four games just because they're desperate. And Belichick actually,

everyone's taking their little turn with it. But if you do the walk around defense where everything looks crazy before the snap, you get a lot of pop. I want to ask you guys how you think the... And then they get run on for 20 yards. That's what happens every time. You know, the Patriots were going to because they had big players.

They wouldn't do it too much. They just sprinkle it in every once in a while to mess with you. It's a kniface pitch. It's an Ephis pitch. You don't use it all the time. Yeah. How do you think, I guess, in this could, you know, lead to just another thing to talk about because we know it's a trend because all you have to do is look at the coaching staffs

around the league. How do you think the Mike McDonald's defensive, Tree plays into this, but also just is going to play into this season because I think for most fans out there, it's flown a little under the radar that Mike McDonald, who did about as good a job as any defensive coordinator over the last two years in the NFL coming from Michigan and going to the Ravens. Everyone knows he got hired in Seattle. But then, okay, so there's one style of his defense there. And then in Baltimore, he gets replaced by Zachary Orr. And so there's there's one there.

And then we go to the Titans and we got a Ravens assistant, Denard Wilson, there. And then we go to the Dolphins and they hired Anthony Weaver, another one of those. So literally four coordinators from the exact same staff who, you know, was very effective and we're doing things a little bit differently than a lot of the league are suddenly running teams. So that's, you know,

an eighth of the league is now this Mike McDonald defense. How do you think that's going to affect things? what are they going to look like and related to everything we're talking about, too, with all the safeties. Yeah. And I think I'd love to hear Nate's breakdown of why this defense has popularized so suddenly. And so as these things do, if it works against high powered offenses, if it stops, high powered offenses, you're going to hire. I basically happen because Mike McDonald, like, beat the Shannon-Han tree a couple times in prime time. So like owners and stuff. But also, all right, let's do that. His defense looks smart and it looks sick.

Right. No, it doesn't, I'm not saying he didn't deserve it. just mean like in big spots when people were watching, he slowed down the most unstoppable offenses in football. And so own exactly. It's not that complicated. Owners and coaches are just like, let's get that. But four seems like a lot. I think what's super interesting is you've seen some of these coaches and Mike McDaniel being one of these coaches literally walk out of the Fangio system era. It's still ongoing, whatever. But like walk out of that and into very quickly. He was a little late on the trend,

and now we'll see if he's early on this one. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And then in the chargers have Jesse Minter. Okay. Good call. Ravens, Michigan double resume builder,

the harbor, harbourization of your resume. No, I think what this, and it's hard to just go like, it's not like this defense is the Tampa 2 or the Seahawks cover three or the Dick LeBoe,

you know, zone blitzing scheme, you know, Blitzberg stuff. It's everything. That is the gift of this defense. I think what Mike McDonald, McDonnell, McDonald, this is going to be. Good luck to you. God, too many mics, too many Irishmen and scotch.

But no, it's, I think with that kind of that defense, it's a kaleidoscope scheme. That's kind of what I always get to. Why it's so hard on modern offenses is just what I was getting to with the three safety stuff is that you're trying to just cause those hesitations. So you're just, is this cover two? Is this man? Is this covered three? Is this a blitz?

This is a simulated. So all the thing, everything looks the same. You know, in baseball, they call pitch tunneling. You know, it's the same thing. To the quarterback, it's like, that is the same safety look. I've seen all five snaps. And then, but it's been five different coverages all that. That is, you wish everybody could do that.

What that takes is a lot of good coaching and a lot of detail orientation. So I want to say that this defense can work when you have the guy that can write it, when you have the author and you have the guy that's coaching it. it like the Seahawks do when that kind of thinking spreads that's where I get a little worried where it's kind of going all right do you guys all have you know Roquant Smith do you guys all have Kyle Hamilton do you all have Justin Matabike do you have Jadavian Clownie on his best year do you have Marlon Humphrey tackling all right well you have different personnel how are you going to use it because this defense is supposed to be adaptable to its personnel if you're going to point at

one thing that maybe they major in it's the simulated pressures which you know just is the they only blitz for or rush for but it's the non-traditional four you know makes it look like a blitz that's maybe what their fastball is but i think what this defense is and what what they kind of with the scheme the the the theory the whatever you want philosophy of this defense is is that they run everything well they are a pitcher with five six pitches that they can throw on any on a pitch count that's what they are but again when the brain drain happens a little bit that gets me a little worried when people are like i'm going to copy that defense It's like, are you?

Okay, we'll see how you do with that personnel and without the mastermind maybe behind it. So guys like Jesse Minter, I have a little trust in because what I saw what he did, what he did in college at Michigan, he has some proof of concept. Other guys that haven't called play, we'll see. We'll see. But also they might have their own thing. And that's the thing is it's very hard to predict who has their own ideas that have contributed to what happened before. But they're different people. They're different coaches.

It's like, you know, Flores is, Belichick's had. successful people leave and unsuccessful people leave. And Flores is his own, like you can see the Belichick influence on Flores, but he is very much his own guy. And I tend to think Zachary Orr is the best bet because he's the one the Ravens chose and the Ravens are smart. So they could have chosen. Smart team.

Dernard Wilson or Anthony Weaver. They had a years-long job interviews for all of them. And so I just tend to trust that they made a good choice of those three. but the other two might also be great. Everyone, and they might be great at different things. Anthony Weaver was a guy I know a team seriously considered for head coaching jobs and is a leader. Yeah, I think.

Well, I've heard about Oars great things too. So I will say that. Yeah, I mean, I think all of these guys, as you said, as you guys both said, have the potential to be outstanding. The main thing that we see over and over again when systems are borrowed, offense, defense, now special teams, because now we'll have, you know, little schematic twists on the different special teams things.

but the teachability of it, how you can communicate and build progression and evolution in that defense while simultaneously game planning while you're in the heat of a season. It's a teaching progression that is usually very specific to the teacher. You know, we heard reporting last year of some of the things with Brandon's Daily was the teachability in terms of the progression of concepts wasn't necessarily there the way that it was in that one year in Los Angeles.

And so that's always the kind of red flag that you look for is like it's not just does it work? Yes, it works. Generally speaking, this works, that worked. How can you apply it to a wide variety of people in a way that builds a natural progression over time to where you're,

you're trimming fat. Chris Vassar, who is a good defense, great defensive analyst, and I read and listen to a lot of his stuff, he had a really great quote about Mike McDonald, who he knows, he knows really well and has worked with. And he said, this defense's best pieces aren't the front structure or the coverages, but the structure that encapsulates it. It's not the calls. It's the ability to have a lot of tools with less teaching, so you're never surprised you're stuck. So it's like a no-waste defense or a defensive philosophy of teaching specifically, less so talking about. about scheme-specific stuff, but it is no waste in the sense that the things that click with your players, you keep those things and you remove the things that don't, and you evolve and adjust your own structure underneath your general philosophy to be malleable to what your players can do and are actually, and you're not yourself sticking to what works just because you think it works and because it has worked before. So I think that's where Mike McDonald has the potential to be special, but people who have worked under him for a while, I think for multiple years, that's going to be the key thing, is watching how he's done that, watching how

he's organized and bucketed information and disseminated that information in pieces that build progression. To me, that makes or breaks a scheme like this. And that's the same for offense, but with something like this, where we think it might be new, it could, I mean, new, it's bought, you know, everything, again, everything cycles around. But when we think it could be the next wave, it's actually just going to be how it's taught less so what it is. Yeah, teaching could be like the new money ball, you know. It's like, seriously, it just seems like that's honestly a huge area for NFL teams to take advantage of that they don't, that they just don't, they say they don't have time to do it,

but to figure out how to quickly and concisely teach NFL players things they need to learn. Starting with like fundamentals and just very specifically what they need to do. and I think that's probably lacking, and you're right. It's very easy to imagine that's harder when you're a head coach rather than a defensive coordinator. I think that might have tripped up Brandon Staley. Or maybe he just wasn't always connecting on that teaching level or having the right players that he needed to be able to teach.

But that's on them. Breaking football is complicated. That's what this show has been all about. It really is. And I love it. Like, it's the middle of July. And to me, this is a perfect time to get into this stuff and hopefully make you guys smarter. We're going to take one quick break.

And we're going to do a speed round. and have a little after dinner minute. In the heat of battle, your squad relies on you. Don't let them down. Unlock elite gaming tech at Lenovo.com. Dominate every match with next level speed, seamless streaming, and performance that won't quit. So you can push your gameplay beyond performance

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Go to HelloFresh.com and use promo code meal 50. That's Hellofresh.coma promo code meal 50. What's up everybody? Daniel Jeremiah here. And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move the Sticks, we take you inside the game from scouting reports and player development to team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters.

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the Move the Six podcast on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Back on NFL Daily, and we're going to try. These are complicated things. They're big concepts. We're going to try to hit a few quickly, and then we'll wrap things up. It's been great to spend this Monday morning with you. I mean, let's be real. It's not Monday morning. morning. It went out in the feed like overnight. We obviously taped it before. Let's talk about 12 personnel just because this is obviously not like a new thing, but it did pop up a little more in fun places last year. You know, it is the second most common, you know, personnel usage. It was relatively at a high. Not that it had a huge spike last year, but it is one of the highest years of the last 10 years.

But the team that used it the most was the Packers and it was just very effective with Luke Musgrave and Tucker Craft. And it was just like, awesome. And I think they're going to expand on that. And, you know, we've seen it. We've seen as the NFL evolves and we've seen different times when it's more popular than others. Obviously, you know, the Grank, Aaron Hernandez, when they really came out, like that offense had a lot of new elements, but really the way they used those two tournaments was a specific part of it.

And I think about, again, we're talking about lighter defenses. How can you take advantage of them? This is one way. And I think of the Packers. and Lafleur, who had the lafleur asance last year, just cooking. And I think of the Bills with Kincaid and Doss and Knox. I think of the Raiders this year with Michael Mayer and Brock. Brock, of course.

And your favorite name, I know already. I know. And Mark Andrews and Isaiah likely in Baltimore. And so those are also, those are all really compelling teams. And I'm curious just how they're going to be used. And I think, I think there at least it's going to be ticking up. especially the Packers are going to be fun of a lot. Yeah, they love that.

I think, and Nate, I think, can speak on this, too. It's like, teams don't like to sub, especially if they want to go fast. And so I think you might be on to something with an increase in a specific personnel usage, increasing in that way, because if it's working, they're going to want to move the ball down the field. They don't want to sub back in,

get another receiver on the field, float those guys in and out. They're going to want to just go, right? And I think that's another step in this that will, by proxy, increase the percentage of snaps that you do see with those teams and with more teams who are running 12 personnel, they're not going to want to sub. And you see it with like, you know, I remember Matt Lafleur was talking last year about how he always was fascinated with the way that, you know, some of his cohorts used the larger

receivers to kind of be hybrid, full-back, tight-end guys who were doing some of the same type of disguises and blocking looks and basically making everything go. All these different personels go out of 11 personnel. And I know Nate's classic joke that I'll always take with me everywhere was, you call it 11 and a half personnel between 11 and 12. And so, but I think that with some of these coaches who do like that, because you don't have to sub,

you can go fast and you don't have to bring guys on and off the field, what coaches like now is that you can capitalize against smaller, lighter defenders. You can again find the similar voids in the field the way that we've talked about this entire show. And you don't have to sub if you have multiple tight ends who are capable of maybe you don't have three receivers. You want to keep on the field and your and your 12 works. Yeah. I mean, look at these teams. Ravens, Raiders, like those second tight ends. I mean, it's why I think Nate, not to cut you off, but I know you're getting you. I know we keep to be. Drink. Like, I know, I know, I think Nate, you were, you know, when they drafted Bowers, like,

you thought it makes sense because those two tight ends work together and they don't have a third receiver now they have. I want them on the Rams. That's where I really want.

The Rams. I know. And I couldn't believe I almost manifested that. I was like, yeah, I was giddy about that for a minute. Well,

are the Rams going to run more 12? Because they signed Kobe Parkinson. So I've, I'm 100% believe they're going to run more 12. I think so too. Tyler had been coming off a serious injury

that might take a while. Nobody sleep. And Davis. Fantasy football people. Don't sleep on Davis Allen. Yeah. He had a good. moments last year and again against the Ravens. Let's wrap up this show with you, Jordan,

and you're going to give us our after-dinnerment today. Yeah, so I like the concept of the after-dinnerment that you introduced in the debut of the show. And I was a little nervous when you asked me to do it because mine are, I gravitate toward earnestness and bittersweetness, right? Those are the, those are the spaces I like to be in. And I think about training camps opening. Like, you think about what the bubble of camp really means. It is a space where the players and the coaches are all, it's all very raw and real and there's no hiding from anybody. You are who you are in that space for two, three weeks. You learn a lot about each other and you work really hard and there's a lot of pain. And I remember, I think about some of the things that we pass to each

other and some of the experiences that we pass to each other as humans. And I remember a young man named Austin O'Connor, who went out to Carolina Panthers training camp in Spartanburg every single year with his dad. And sadly, his dad passed away several years ago. And he decided that he was going to take his father's ashes and spread them all over the world where they'd taken trips. And one of those places was he traveled to Spartanburg and he made the same drive that they did. And he went out to the field very, very early in the morning. And I want to paint the picture. of Spartanburg there because it is unlike any other place to have a football practice, there's like this humidity that rises from the ground down there. And it's so it's this mist

that swirls all around you. And so he walked to the edge of the field into the end zone. And he, you know, placed some of his father's ashes there. And I remember thinking like, that's happening. And then all of this, like players were having babies in camp. Their wives were having babies. you know, another player's brother passed away during camp. I mean, there was so much of existence and life happening in that very confined space. And all of those things are part of the human experience and what we pass to each other. And this is not the mint that you expected. I know. No, I love it. But that's what I, every year when training camps open, I think of Austin O'Connor, I think of his father. And I think of walking through the mist that morning and him having that quiet

moment and passing that into the field, the very field on which these players were about to have these very real, very honest, very vulnerable, raw, hard experiences with each other and build a team and camaraderie that they would then pass to each other through the rest of that season and beyond. I think it's beautiful. And I think, you know, as people that we've been working in football for a while, it's like, it's, it's the start of the year. It's rebirth. It's it's everything. And yeah, rookies are reporting this week at a few places. The Texans will be the first team to report fully later in the week because they're in the Hall of Fame game. Like, it is happening. And it's not just like the feeling of like, okay, school starting. Like we're back.

I know, Nate, you feel that like that the NFL calendar is just sort of your body clock at this point. And it's a certain sort of fun, innocent excitement. But I love that you pointed out the family aspect to it because like the NFL is expensive and training camps affordable and it's easy to go to and for anyone that hasn't gotten a training camp and if you have kids or if you don't like it's a great experience because you just see these players up close in a way that you would have to pay you couldn't see them up close like no matter how much you paid if it was during the regular season and the players are cool they're in a better mood you can kind of scout and see which days, you know, that they're maybe doing a little extra versus days where they're not going through

that much. You can find that out if you kind of like look, look at the beat writers and what the schedule is. But yeah, my son, like he can't wait. Like, he's begging to go because I think he has as much or more fun going to watch a training camp practice than he does going to a regular season game. There is just kind of a beauty and an innocence about it. It was my first job. was doing a training camp ball boy was my first job it all makes sense now originally yeah training

yeah I always like the equipment guys man my first boss was Dennis Ryan longtime equipment guy from Minnesota Vikings but it was so for me growing up camp was at first it was work and I was kind of like I'm missing all of August could be hang out my friends and some in Mancato Minnesota

saying at a college dorm with no air conditioning And then as I got older, like really once I, I kind of realized, you know, the path I was going down. Yeah, that's never happening for you. At some point, you just give it up and you're just like, I'm not going to be that friend here. Yeah, right. And then, yeah, and then camp started. And then I started looking forward to camp once I hit high school. Like once I, like, ninth grade or so I hit, I was like, oh, this is cool. I'm reading the script behind these players. So like my memories of camp. And I, I've gotten this as I got older, maybe away from like the day to day of the game, but in my own now media career and

being around the draft a few times now and seeing what the draft's like is that it's hope. And I think that's what's so cool about training camp and the draft is that you're selling hope to the fans. And I think that's awesome, not just the fans, I should say, to the entire organization and to teams and to coaches. Everything's a clean slate. Oh, they caught us last year, but now we got Carl on our team. You know, we didn't have Carl last year, but now we do. But like, you don't know who the secret key is going to be. It could be Carl. It could be some six-round rookie or it could be the number one freaking pick. You know, and I think that's what so cool. NFL is not for

long in a negative way, but it's also the opposite of that is how much can get built up. And I think that's why so many quickly, too, and I think that Puka Nakua, a great example. But I think that's what's so cool is that you can start seeing those flashes in the draft and then you start seeing him camp

and then you start seeing it week one. And if you're a kid at 12 years old with your dad watching practice, you go, I remember when Puka caught that touchdown and we said he was going to be good. And I think that's Camp, I think has so many special memories for people. And I think Greg, you brought the best point.

It's usually very affordable. And it's a very fan. It's free for a lot of people. I mean, the fan, they have fan events with them. Yeah, right. Yeah. But the fans are fan events around them. I'm getting to see this from a media perspective because, again, I was always involved

with the game. So I never stepped out into the parking lot, you know? And so it's kind of gotten pretty cool for me to see that for maybe a different perspective as I've gotten older. And I think it's great. Well, it was a great way to take a look at a big picture around League a lot. We're looking forward to. And yeah, training camp is coming.

I hope to have you back on some time, Nate. And obviously, Jordan loved having you again. That's it for NFL Daily today for Nate Tice in Jordan Roderig. We will be back on Tuesday. excited for this show with Colleen Wolf back in the Chris Wesleyan podcast studio and Patrick Claibon. We will see you then. Beyond Performance with Intel Core Ultra Processors for the next era

of gaming. Upgrade to smooth, high quality streaming with Intel Wi-Fi 6E and maximize game performance with enhanced overclocking. Win the tech search. Power up at Lenovo.com. Hey, everybody, Daniel Jeremiah here.

And I'm Bucky Brooks. On Move to 6, we take you inside the game from breaking down college prospects and NFL rookies. To evaluate team building philosophies, coaching trends, and how front offices construct winning rosters. We study the tape, talk to decision makers, and give you a perspective you won't find anywhere else.

It's everything you need to understand the why behind what happens on Sunday. Don't miss it. Listen to the Move the Sticks podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Lev Florio. Together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season?

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