NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal - Wide Receiver / Tight End Prospect Rankings (with Josh Norris & Danny Kelly)

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

A room filled with some heroes - Gregg Rosenthal and Marc Sessler are joined by draft experts to break down the wide receiver and tight end prospects in the 2023 NFL Draft. First, Josh Norris of Underdog Fantasy stops by to rank the receivers (3:23) and share his thoughts on Jaxon Smith-Njigba (8:02), Jordan Addison (13:09), Zay Flowers (17:58), Quentin Johnston (23:49), Cedric Tillman (29:38), Josh Downs (30:29), and the overall value to be had in this receiver class (32:42). Then, the Ringer's draft expert Danny Kelly joins to rank the tight ends (34:53), giving his analysis of Michael Mayer (39:38), Dalton Kincaid (43:38), Darnell Washington (48:52), Sam LaPorta (52:22), and the trio of Luke Musgrave, Tucker Kraft, and Luke Schoonmaker (56:08). Note: timecodes approximate.NFL Daily YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/nflpodcastsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. The Around the NFL podcast. What's this week's excuse, boys? Welcome to the Around the NFL podcast. I'm Greg Rosenthal in a room filled with one hero. He's such a big man in terms of his personality. He fills the room. It's Mark Sessler, not sitting in the power chair.

I'm talking about yourself. I mean, let's just be real here. We just, like, we attempted to start the show about six, seven minutes ago. And, you know, Dan is not here today. He's out on vacation. Hope he's having a great time. But he has a little manual timer

that he uses next to his laptop to see where we are in real time in the show. And it looks like something from 1996. But Greg today wielding the timer, placed it. Haphapper's elite, what am I trying to say, on top of the cough button? And the show began in utter silence from Greg's mic.

But now we're here. Well, I'm glad now we spent a minute on that awesome story. You know. Well, we've got to fill the time. It's going to be a big show. The news is so boring this weekend. Like the best news I could find that is like Durham Smyth signed a contract extension that we're skipping straight past the news, Mark.

And we're going to get right into wide receiver rankings with her old friend Josh Norris, tight-end rankings with Danny Kelly from the ringer, who does a great job. on their draft guide. And we're going to start going to school on the draft. As I know you have been, including on your weekend trip in Austin, where you met many adoring fans of the Around the NFL podcast. Yeah, went to Austin, visited my brother.

And I know we're on a tight clock here, Greg. So I'll keep this story short. But had a great time. I mean, I'd never been there before. We just picked a random city to go to. And we did have a, there was a pod listener that stopped us for a minute to say hello. And it was a very typical scenario where he had tried to – there was – I put a little Instagram post saying I was in Austin. He explained to his wife, we might run into this guy from this podcast.

And so when it happened in real time, it's always sort of what you get is like the wife is like, what is it about this person that interests you on any level and why did you stop down on our vacation to speak to him? So, you know, it went fairly well. That is next level, though, that he warned her we might see Mark Zessler and then you delivered. I mean, I didn't do anything. I was just sitting there. but you're right. I think the fate's delivered like destiny. The world, the podcast is very different, Mark, and Justin,

sitting in Dan's quote-unquote power chair. I'm sitting in the chair so that I can see Justin. More importantly, because otherwise Mark and I would be sitting next to each other on the same side of the desk, like that couple who sits that way at restaurants. I'm sure Justin is part of that couple. He's laughing because it's true. If you're in a booth, I mean, what else are you going to do? I agree. The booth is separated far apart.

From it, you know, you want to be on that same side. Sure. Yeah. But I just mean out of like a two-tops. Not a, you know, where it's like a banquette that other people share in your, you're both at the same side. That's too much. Yeah.

No, I agree. You want to look. Greg struggles with the human contact element of things sometimes. So there's that baked into it. Even with my wife. Let's not wait any longer. Let's get Josh Norris of underdog fantasy. I'm really not.

I'm going on vacation though tomorrow. And so this is the last big thing. I'm going to do. But before I go, I wanted to learn. I wanted to go to school. I thought, what can we do today so that we get smarter about the NFL draft? It's coming. The draft is in less than a month.

Mark and I are starting to cram, and the best way to cram is to get on intelligent draft analysts like Josh Norris from Underdog Fantasy. Welcome, Josh. gentlemen great to see you uh this is a smooth operation i am joining today and already i believe of the 1,483 episodes you all have done wow this might be number one research he knew the episodes we don't even know the episodes 16 away from 1 500 then we're almost there i mean hopefully i'm invited back for the celebration because again this is going to set a record record setter today um i'm i'm through to be here i am a listener i hope everyone knows this i'm a listener in fact

that gregg i feel like i in your position i must say that grave digger didn't even bring up his music when joining the show today like this needs to be mentioned at the top uh that's a good point who was speaking oh hey sorry about that one get a little loose when dan's not here you know yeah it's just like the substitute teacher pops in yeah it's just like it's just like me with my children And ain't no respect. Well, you can be rest assured, Dan will not be listening to this episode. Who knows where he is right now. So Underdog Fantasy, getting a lot of pop the last few years.

Josh Norris famously nailed his mock draft two years ago. And then we had a battle between Mark and Josh going into last year, which was highly contested. I don't know who won that. Yeah, I don't know if a winner was ever claimed, Mark. Your thoughts. Well, the storyline out of that draft, you know, we were in law. Vegas tracking my mock, you know, pick by pick and yours as well. But it was Gravedigger who at the 11th Hour created a mock that totally, totally dropped a bomb on my results. So I don't

remember how you fared in that. No, all that I know is last year doesn't matter. And then two years ago, nailing 16 of 32, like, you know, this, the dolphins going undefeated for a season is the only one I have to think about, right? It's almost like, it's almost like F them picks, to be honest with you where went all in for one draft cycle and nailed the best mock draft ever where the rest is kind of meaningless because I won one of them, you know? And who knows what happens this April? Mark, I mean, is now the time to like lay down the real challenge that we will track? Mm. I were the final weekend in April. What better time. Right? Absolutely. I mean, we have to force it on Dan once he is back in that chair. I mean, it's too early to do a mock draft.

I'd have to create it now during the show. So instead, we're just, going to do wide receiver rankings. We're going to go to school. We're going to figure this out. And we haven't really talked about these guys as much. We've been talking about the quarterbacks in general. And I thought I would get someone smart like yourself on the show to give us your rankings, Josh. And then we would ask questions. We would pick them apart. We would maybe pick out a few different things unrelated to the receivers, but about like your physical appearance to needle you on and then try to get a reaction. I love that. human way, that way.

Well, let me start by saying, I think this wide receiver class is different and difficult because they're all built like you, Greg. Like, they're all really, you know, not your typical prototype, big wide receivers who went on the outside. And like, that's fine. Mark might have been a better comp, like I'm 5.5.135 or something. I don't know. Some of these guys aren't that far off.

That would be next level. But it's, you know, now in the NFL, you can be a quote-unquote, slot wide receiver, which was a stigma just a handful of years ago, right? And now you have all different shapes and sizes filling that spot. But it's a really fun wide receiver group, albeit I think we have to keep in mind how much we've been spoiled over the last few years with some absolute juggernauts and superstars at the position immediately once they hit the NFL. Yeah, I mean, it's, I feel like you guys said it well on your show with Hayden Winks, where you talked about the fact that the NFL is changing and we almost just have to not

prejudge this class for what it is because they're coming in as part of a different world of the passing game in general and a lot of these guys I think their size a couple years ago would have freaked people out but the speed with some of them absolutely changes the way you look at them who who's sort of the first guy you studied that really jumped out to you grabbed your attention yeah let's start number one and i'll go with ohio states jackson smith and jigba who if we talk about what you just mentioned uh isolating a wide receiver he didn't even play this past season, you know, just 60 snaps in total. But during that one year in 2021 with Ohio State, C.J. Stroud, obviously, at quarterback,

Garrett Wilson at one wide receiver, Chris Olavie, and the other one. Then you had J.S.N. at six foot and a half, 196 pounds, who was just a slot demon, like zero wasted movement. And just his ability to, you know, create leverage, work on the toes of a cornerback if it's man coverage, or in zone where it's like so much trash and muddied up in the middle of the field, he just has like this particular mind meld with his quarterback that he's able to like sit in these windows in these spots and even work to the second or third gap if he needs to. And then as soon as he catches it, he just like rolls with a momentum and then picks up these chunk plays.

Like you will never consider him one of the top athletes at the wide receiver spot. But for him to be a plug in play player in this class, there's no doubt in my mind he should rank as number one. You had a really interesting breakdown of a play he had against Penn State where he did everything that's good about him to create a big play out of the gate was what you love about him. But then his downfield speed, he was tackled by Joey Porter Jr. And it was like, I thought it was a wonderful sort of encapsulation of what you love about him, but also why there's, he's not a, you know, maybe elite guy on that level

in terms of a speed angle. Yeah, and, I mean, he will set you up to lose immediately off the line in terms of like his release package right like he'll take even a jab step the play you're talking about mark is he took two steps of his left foot which forced the corner to take the outside lane and that's because he wanted the inside move up the field and then you know sitting in that soft spot and then rolling away from momentum and then as you said you constantly see him create separation and then sustain it but then whenever he has you know 15 or 10 yards then he'll get chased down at the end which is totally fine like I will give away some huge explosive moments of 60-yard touchdowns

if this guy gets, I don't know, 90, 100, 110 targets during his rookie season, if not way more than that is possible. Right. Keenan Allen has gotten caught from behind a lot of times in the NFL, and we still see guys like, I don't know why old names are coming up, but Troy Williamson and Darius Hayward Bay go high in the draft way back in the day just because they can break the big one. Like the big one can be overrated.

I like Smith and Jigba. they're at number one. I'm not worried that he missed last season. That feels very much like, look, I outproduced Garrett Wilson and Chris Olavé, and I know there's reasons for that in terms of the system, but it was still on the same team with them and easily outproduced.

And then when he wasn't on the same team with them, he puts up over 300 yards in the biggest game of the year. Like, that should matter for something. Like, we recognize Wes Welker and Julian Edelman when they were in the slot. Like, that was created by their scheme in part, but it was also still production and it's like incredibly important

and the fact that he had a hamstring injury that basically kept him out all of last season it felt like kind of like I'm sitting on where I put up a year ago and that's fine. Like you have your whole career in front of you you don't want anything worse to happen I totally get it and I totally

look at him as like an option route master and not every team is running those option routes but for the ones that do like the Patriots for instance who are picking at 14, and to me that this would be a receiver pick that could actually get right. They are, they love the three cone drill. Jackson Smith and Jigga's three cone drill was absolutely insane. I think that absolutely translates to winning in the slot. He has great

concentration. Like he stops suddenly like you would expect. Everything seems like it'll translate to a thousand yard plus receiver. And yeah, maybe you're not as excited about him being like a true one. But if you're putting up 1,200 yards every year, like a 1B, that's still a first round pick. Now, he only ran six routes in one or two wide receiver sets during his entire time at Ohio State. So I think there is even a question if he's even out there in two wide receiver sets when we see multiple tight ends or a fullback or whatever else on the field.

But yeah, I mean, just to go back to circles to the start, like the stigma of slot wide receivers, like I don't think just exists anymore because we just saw a guy in the triple crown win a couple of years ago in Cooper Cup. And then on top of that, the money that Christian Kirk is worth the Jaguars, Chris Godwin is now a different kind of body. The name that you mentioned, I think Keenan Allen slash Amon Ross St. Brown, while they have like different body types, J.S.N can immediately come in and fill that type of production role. And I used to say, Greg and Mark, that like you can't build your wide receiver room or your passing offense around a slot wide receiver. And I think

that's totally changed. Like you totally can now with how these coordinators, these play callers manufacture space and opportunities over the middle of field for these players now. I want to talk about your guy at number two, Jordan Addison at USC. He was, you know, Kenny Pickett's main target at Pitts before that. And this is an interesting guy. It kind of gets right into what you were talking about because he's 511 weighs 173 pounds. And you mentioned that there have only been 32 wide receivers in the past two decades that have weighed 173 or less at the combine.

And like the lineup of those guys that have succeeded. is very limited but what do you like about him how can't why can't he succeed well i think he can run levels or routes at all three levels of the field and at the very least he is going to be like a really good vertical player for whatever team drafts him but he almost has mastered like the dark arts element i would say of wide receiver play in terms people should watch this on youtube because josh in his uh brooklyn studio slash baseman cave looks like he performs dark arts late like he posts on i don't know i don't know what like the the modern equivalent of craigslist and people come over and there's some dark arts i think that's his uh only fans channel

but for for a different part of the day oh uh i'm engaged in june so uh none of that is that's great to find someone who shares that lifestyle with you uh so getting back to football um this element of you know forcing a cornerback in the direction that you want them to go in in order to get to your spot right so like first he'll take this step or animated movement and you know that forces the corner to open up his hips in this direction he attacks that blind spot and then a corner is just completely off balance and then he works back he has like these gumbi like movements too where he can kind of contort his body whether it be screens or shallow routes um and yeah mark the size thing is fascinating because that they're being five in

this class alone that way one hundred and seventy three pounds or less. And as you said, 32 in the last 20 years. And three or four of them are probably in the top 10 receivers, right? Yeah. I mean, it's Jordan Addison, Josh Downs, Tank Dell, and then two others in Jalen Cropper, and Darius Davis. And Zayflower seems like he truly is that size. He just put on 10 pounds of muscle and, you know, sent it out the before and after picture for the combat. Like the whole, the whole catch-all term of route running, I would say probably Jordan Addison has like the best version of that here in terms of like sink your hips, create separation, sustaining it, all that.

I think, like, at the very worst, he's Darnell Mooney, and you can get up to, like, the Emmanuel Sanders, T.Y. Hilton territory, and those guys have obviously been, especially T.Y. Hilton, extremely productive and top options for their teams at some point during their career. See, I think he has a higher ceiling than that even, or than Jackson Smith than Jigba. I went into this, and I'm admitting that I have more work to do here. I was cramming, but I started watching these guys for the first time over the last week. and great play speed.

I think, like, he's obviously faster than in Jigba, like great feet, great suddenness. It's not that different than a slightly smaller Garrett Wilson to me. It just seems like it's very easy to see him translate at the next level, anyone with that good feet. And I like that he worked in two different systems with two different quarterbacks. Granted, they were both great quarterbacks. Kenny Pickett and Caleb Williams.

But to me, that is a major thing you now don't have to be. to work like seeing a receiver succeed in two different systems it's like seeing a receiver go in free agency from one to the other that's completely taking them in different situations and he was like incredibly productive in both so to me like those these are the top two receivers in the draft they seem like the only two that are absolutely safe and are just going to be starters and they'll probably be good from day one and and maybe they don't have the highest ceiling as a jimar chasing all those guys but will be starters and to me he has a little higher ceiling Smith and Jigba, maybe a little higher floor where he's a great after-catch guy,

you know, good vision, you know, in terms of seeing what's in front of him. But Addison can just get open, man. And I liked him a lot. To your point, he mostly was a slot player at Pitt. So we have that checked off where he can play that in NFL if he needs to. And then he was a predominantly right wide receiver at USC, 95% of the snaps or an outside right wide receiver. I slightly disagree with you because the only reason, oftentimes you, You know, this we connect, like, athleticism with ceiling.

Jordan Addison might be like the worst athlete among this grouping. And he was average or below average in almost every single one of his categories. And then when you factor in weight in that, it obviously drops it down. But again, the nuances, the details of what I think, you know, wide receiver play is all about. He definitely encapsulates that at all three levels of the field. And he's probably the only one you can say that with. So definitely an agreement on that point with you. I enjoyed watching Zave Flowers.

And again, with one of your breakdowns, I thought you should. showed that like when you get him into kind of pre-snap motion, there was a way to really use his skill set, get him open. And then suddenly like he's got defenders just behind him. Like that speed there, that quickness is an asset. I mean, I think he also, you know, Boston College has not been a wide receiver factory by any notion. And there was some bad quarterback players there. Do you think though that he can come in and compete against like bigger NFL quarterback, cornerbacks and defenders on that front and still win the way he did in those situations? Yeah, definitely not a quarterback factory seeing as though

those quarterback stunk that we're throwing in the football. Zay Flowers is fascinating because he's that guy this year and you know this. That gets like all the all pro or Hall of Fame comparisons, whether it be Steve Smith or Antonio Brown, because people love to watch small wide receivers who win big. He was asked to do all the difficult stuff

at Boston College in terms of play on the outside, be the vertical player, be the ISO ball guy. And while that hurt probably his production, because as you said, when he was kind of the Z or the movement or the underneath or the drag routes and get the ball in his hands, allow him to win after the catch, he starred and all that stuff. To me, what that shows, though, is the NFL, hey, we can ask, you can ask these questions of if he can win on the outside, but at least gives you a taste of it, because we know on

the easy stuff he can shine, like the movement he has with the ball in his hands and he loves to square up with his defenders, too, as soon as he catches it and almost turns into like a running back in those situations. so teams know he's going to be able to shine probably as that Z or is that slot player but even having the glimpses the moments, the opportunities to be more than that and like the focal

point of this passing game, I think when the teams look back, they'll be pleased that they actually had that question asked with him. I wasn't like as excited. You put him in your first tier essentially. You had a top three of Smith and Jigva, Addison,

and flowers, and then a tier. I went into it kind of thinking Flowers is exactly my type. I mean, I love, like, I love the guys who just move different than everyone else and are great after the catch. I thought Cadarius, like, it doesn't take long to see Cadarius Tony

and think, like, guys just don't move like that. There's a way to find a role for him as an explosive player. But Flowers didn't pop like that for me, at least, at least, like, way ahead of the other small receivers in this class. And not, like, not quite as much as a guy like Cadarius Tony. But that's who I kind of think is a model for him, like in terms of how they would use him, that he's not going to be doing all the normal receiver stuff at first,

but they'll probably have him, like, use as a runner and kind of, not gimmick plays, but plays where you work to get him the ball. Get the ball on his hands. Yeah, manufacture touches. I had an out-of-left field comparison to get him on this crusade to not compare everyone to, like, pro bowlers are all pros. Do you remember Eddie Royal in 2008? who had like an awesome first season with

Jay Cutler I believe Chanahan and Jay Cutler and then Josh McDaniels came in they traded away Jay Cutler and it went to Kyle Orton and he's like you know this from your roteer old days like everyone was all in an Eddie Royal because he had over a thousand total yards

his rookie season and then it fell off a cliff but he was almost of the same stature who with the ball in his hands was electric I am totally with you though on this point just going back to JSN and why he's at the top is I don't think he necessarily runs the routes as they are on paper in that he will like manipulate or change it based on like the defense and the coverage and all these other factors with the spatial awareness that he has.

I think Save Flowers is like a bit more robotic in his. You know, like I'm going to run what's right. You can't pay for that though. That's that's smart. That's why I wondered Steve Smith is writing for under, or working for underdog right now. How did that negotiation go? because he really liked Zayflowers. He said he sort of reminded him of himself.

And I was like, okay, I don't quite see that yet. He's certainly not as physical as Steve Smith was as a player. But I am curious just like how that was bringing in Steve Smith to the company. Does he like leave food in the fridge at work? Like what's he like around the office? Right. Yeah. He leads all the all-hands meetings every Monday at noon Eastern.

That's what he does. No, your timing could not be better. this morning we recorded what I planned to be about a 45 minute episode that turned into probably an hour and a half with Steve Smith. I don't know if you've ever had him on the show, but he just grabs it by the horns and takes it wherever he wants to go. So it was an interesting dynamic. I listened to what you said or what you heard him say.

And I thought it was going to be the same thing. And I came away thinking that maybe he misspoke at the front on safe. Flowers. Like, I don't think he necessarily believes they play the same exact spot that he is that movement guy that you talked about. Like, Steve was an ex. And it's crazy that everyone always like compares these small guys who win big to Steve every single year and will for the next 20 years too. But I think that he likes how competitive Zay Flowers is after the catch in terms of just being, uh, almost a runner with the ball in his hands. And I think that's where his thought of this is some shows up the most.

Yeah, I'd be excited. I mean, if my team, God's Day Flowers is like, he'd be an exciting player. I just am not putting him, like, in that category. To me, it just seems like there's a lot of these guys and different people are going to have different opinions. And it's why, like, maybe the third or fourth receiver in this class feels very similar in grading to the 12th, and I have a feeling a lot of mocks are going to get blown up. You mentioned X receivers.

That kind of brings us to your next tier. So you had a tier more of four more players, and it starts with your number four, is Cedric Tillman, a little surprising, out of Tennessee. And then Quentin Johnson, who some people love Ben Solac over at the Ringer. I saw him had number 11 overall as his player. Daniel Jeremiah doesn't have him that high, but he has him pretty high. I saw the 33rd team. I don't know who made the ranking.

They had him number two overall, like Quentin Johnson. So Cedric Tillman, not as big as Quentin Johnson. you have them four and five, Tillman from Tennessee, bigger receivers in a class full of small receivers. Why do you like Tillman so much to put him up that high? He just instantly reminds me of Corey Davis as like one of the bigger body guys who does all the difficult stuff, like the dirty stuff over the middle of the field. You know, if you need a slant, if you need an end-cutting route, there aren't that many in this class that, like have that size that can win that. I think Johnson is the more intriguing conversation because he is a big body, like you said,

six two and three quarters 208 pounds the big plays are incredible I mean he averaged 22 18 and 17.8 yards per reception over the last three years but he plays so small man like he here's here's the number for you

um 19 force miss tackles which is third best in this class yet I think he only yeah eight of 23 contested targets over last year he came down with 22 of 55 over the last three seasons.

That's a hundred and twenty-fifth among wide receivers in the 2023 class. Like we'll get to some of these other smaller guys, but they might win 13 of 18. So it's weird. He has, because everyone is so terrified of his speed in the Big 12, these runways to go through.

And because of that, you see these awesome big plays. But whenever he's either working back towards the quarterback or over the middle field when he actually has to face contact, to me kind of goes invisible. And that showed up a major factor in that Georgia game to end the season where I think he only had one catch for five yards against Keeley Ringo, who obviously is another prospect in this class.

I mean, I know your 13 of 18 contested catches guy is Josh Downs, who you're pretty fascinated with. And we can get to him into a second. But Quinn Johnson, do you think he's just someone that you're going to have teams around the league that say, yeah, there are a lot of chess catches. He vanishes in certain games. But just the physical specimen in this dress. specifically too where there was not a good free agency crop and he's a different looking

receiver than others that you're getting he would be overdrafted or if in a different year maybe he gets tiered in a different place but the idea of him and what the potential is and what it could become is going to fascinate someone to grab him earlier than we might think yeah for sure uh i just think that they would be making a mistake doing that but i can be totally wrong with this stuff you know nope you couldn't it's never happened it's not going to happen Who does he remind you of? Because did you mention Martavis Brian as a comp? I did.

I did. But even Martavis was even, I think, more special. He's more physical, though. I mean, at least in terms of his body, he's not like as skinny as Martavis Bryant. You know, I'm not saying the frame is exactly the same. But you know the inconsistency that we get from production wise from Gabriel Davis on a week to week basis? I think that's what we will get from Quentin Johnson, where there are going to be some games if he doesn't hit a big play, he might just be silent. And I'm a little bit terrified of it.

of that. And it really does go ahead. I was going to say that the 33rd team thing I was talking about. So that's a website that's run. You really have been cramming. Mike Tannenbaum, well, he listens to the show. We called them out last week and I said maybe you'll even hear this because he listens to the show in the Daniel Jeremiah episode.

I don't know if he's listened to the Josh Morris episode. We'll see. We'll find out if he ranks, you know, DJ over Josh Norris in terms of draft pedigree. He owns it, I think. I think he's running this thing and it's all former NFL evaluators personnel evaluators and their big board has Johnston second

so I think that shows you how like kind of old school NFL to Mark's point dudes maybe look at this guy and by the way they have Broderick Jones the tackle from Georgia first that's pretty wild too did you have a chance to watch Johnson yet yes I thought he was like

well I agree with you he seemed like he's going to be a player that's very frustrating in the NFL that he probably could, he could produce in the right situation and he could get open like he's explosive in the short area. So I think that's what was exciting is a guy that big who is explosive. I think he can get open relatively maybe for a bigger guy, but will be inconsistent, like not tough at the catch point. You're right. And we'll probably be frustrating, like a frustrating guy if you take him high. To go back, I kind of ask Steve that question because, again, no one's better at like playing bigger than your size than he is.

and like is that something coaching can take up in terms of just hey utilizing this six foot nine frame when you you have your wingspan instead of like playing like your 511 um and i almost believe gregg it comes like from the individual it comes from within somehow and like competitive so i i can't really answer if he's going to improve that with NFL coaching because you kind of think with all these opportunities i mean 54 of them over the last three years and we just haven't seen any development with it but But that's not to say, like, if he does get drafted, Mark, that he's going to be a zero. But he already has that insane deep speed that he will hit big plays no matter what. But if we got like plays big plus big plays, then I'd be much more comfortable feeling good about him in the first round. Yeah, zero would be a problem for all involved. No doubt about that. I love that you put Tillman, though, fourth before we quickly wrap up the thing was because I watched Tillman and I really liked him a lot. and I think the only reason he's not getting looked at

because he was hurt this last year, but when he was on the same team as Hyatt, and I know they played different kind of spots on the roster, he had a thousand more yards at him. Like that matters a lot to me. And similar to Johnston as like one of the bigger guys in the class, but like sneaky long strides, like could be an X, like very fluid, makes tough catches,

like probably a number two receiver, but potentially a very good number two receiver. Lance Eerlainter guy compared him to Michael Pittman, and I thought that was a perfect, comparison. He's a Michael Pittman type player who just goes and gets it. And to me, there's not a big difference between him. And like I said, if he's going to be later in the draft, I would love to take him and maybe like him more than Johnson. All right, what were you going to say about Downs, Mark? Well, I know. I know Josh Downs, like you seem to really be fascinated with. And

you're being frustrated with big players who play small. You said the opposite about Downs. And I think also you just see the production. You mentioned that he had like 43% of UNC's targets in 2021 catches. And He had 90 plus passes, catches a year ago, and it wasn't all, you know, schemed up stuff. It was, I think, only 11 the more screens. So it's like, this player seems fascinating to me. I mean, again, he's another very small wide receiver. Why do you like him so much? I think your opinions, you seem to have him a little higher than some other people do.

Yeah, it does come back to just someone of that size winning 13 of 18 contested catches. And so, like, I think when you when you think about the slot wide receiver, Many people believe they're just replaceable types. So does one have a calling card? Can they maximize or do something different than everyone else? And I would say for Josh Downs, it's playing bigger than his size, you know? It just allows for more to happen for a player that is 5 foot 9, 171 pounds. He's, I think, extremely explosive in his movements.

He has like this stop and start nature to them. And he kind of has that JSN feel for soft areas. Like if the Panthers take C.J. Stroud at number one and obviously can't get JSN at 39 overall, like filling that maybe with Josh Downs, who is truly a slot only, would make a lot of sense to me because it's that middle of the field connection that Downs had with his quarterbacks at UNC, too. It's, I don't know if we've ever had a class that, like, lacks that top end appeal and just has so many of these names. but we know that so a number of these are going to be extremely productive. It's just obviously landing on the right ones, for sure, that are the right offenses. And you look at these draft classes and like all these receivers keep getting underdrafted. Like all the second round receivers, for the most part, not all, but the hit rate on second round receivers has been sky high compared to other positions.

Like guys like Pittman was Higgins technically a second round receiver? He was just like, there's just been so many of these guys. And I think that'll happen in this class because I don't think anyone's, many of them. are going to get taken and none are getting taken in the top 10 maybe only three get taken in the first round or something but it feels like there's 12 good ones I kind of like the look a mingo I like a little jonathan mingo look look pretty good I like tank dell you said stop and start like that kid can he can stop and start and he's very very I don't care if he doesn't have a great 40 he's very explosive in the first 10 and can get open when it matters where he needs to get open

and everyone's going to have their other different little favorites, and we'll talk about that as it gets to the draft. I guess my point is like there's like 14 of them, and I'm not sure there's like a huge difference after the top two. It's like the year that the independent films blew up the Oscars and changed. That was sort of phony in a way, but it changed everything we thought about independent film. Maybe this is the undersized wide receiver class

that changes our minds a couple years from now and shifts how we do things. Some might say it's the Greg and Mark year of the 2023. I don't like that, I don't like that pitch. I do consider myself the way that we discussed. I do consider myself a tanked out. I have the confidence to be named Nathaniel and be one of the smallest people on the field and get the nickname Tank.

I don't know how that happens. Can we talk just a little bit about Jalen Hyatt? Because this Tennessee offense... I think it would be funnier if I just didn't let you. That was... Underdog fantasy. Thank you, Josh. You've been amazing.

I've really just got to complete this. Sorry. I'm really sorry. But we're going to get to Danny Kelly after this break. See you, Josh. All right, welcome back to the show. You know, thanks for Josh Norris. Felt like we heard everything we needed to hear from Josh.

We had reached our endpoint. Yeah, he wanted to add a few more details and you shut the door on that opportunity, which is that you're the host today. Whenever someone says, you know, can I say one more thing? No one's ever said no. Right.

I think it was time. It feels like a very Rosenthal hammer swing. I enjoy it. Me and all my friends are jerks. I'm feeling the power chair, and that's why I'm so excited to let Danny Kelly enter the program here today. Danny Kelly has been writing for the ringer for who knows how long. A long time.

How long, Danny? You can jump in here. About seven years, I think, now? A long time. Kind of crazy. So a fantasy writer? at the ringer, but he's not just fantasy. He's also their big draft expert.

He's wearing two hats, two big hats. He's got the big board up by Danny Kelly over at the ringer. He's been a Seahawks fan forever. And he has a mysterious man in the background of his YouTube shot. Who is that? Is that a Philadelphia, Philly? What is going on there? That's Ken Griffey Jr.

I live in Bellington, Washington. And he played for the Baby M. for a spell there when he's like 18 years old and so yeah this picture of him so I just wanted to start off you didn't hear

our previous interview with Josh Norris I just wanted to get your thoughts on Jalen Hyatt Danny I think he's he's very good at one or two things

and that will get him on the field early in his career and then he's going to have to develop from there be a little bit more well-rounded route runner you know expand all that get a little bit better

at catching the football but overall a very explosive a big play receiver who I think has a role early on. Okay, I surprised you with that and you don't even know what the backstory is and you don't need to. I just hope that Josh hears that. I thought that was excellent.

You handled it well. Jalen Hyatt analysis. Actually, but yeah, before we do get to the tight ends, because we're kind of structuring this show on past catchers in general, wide receiver's tight ends, do you have any, like, what is your hottest or least conventional wide receiver take? Or just or a couple, just like something up there where you feel like

you're a little different than consensus. at receiver. That's a really good question. I think, let's see here, Marvin Mims is discount Jordan Addison. Okay.

That's good. I like that. Marvin Mims in the second instead of Jordan Addison in the first, kind of play similar roles. I think Addison's a better route runner,

but generally speaking, around the same size, both big player receivers, both a lot of production. I like Mims a lot. I think it's kind of strange how he doesn't have a whole lot of hype right now. But to me,

he, extremely fast, like he can, the term, The expression I heard that I really liked is he can beat guys off the dribble. He's just like one step and he's down the field and he gets past coverage. So that's what I picture when I think about him. So I think he has potential to be a steal in the draft.

It's such an unusual draft class this year because we just talked with Josh Norris about how small the wide receivers are. But when you look at these tight ends, I mean, they are massive bodied individuals. There's some like literally human freakazoids like entering the league at this time around. And I really enjoyed your write-up because I think it allowed you just to use language just to describe their bodies in general what these teams are going to get.

I mean, are there a couple teams if you're thinking like, we need a pass catcher, we need a target for our offense. It's like this might be the year where you swing on a tight end and just maybe let some of these wide receivers fall deeper down.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, it's such an interesting class from the tight end point of view because I think the NFL has not had a ton of success with tight ends in the first round. Like if you go back in the last 10 years or so, first round tight ends, generally speaking, are kind of busts. Even Kyle Pitts, I think, hasn't really lived up to his draft status yet, though I do think he will eventually.

But that's part of the deal. Like, it takes these guys a little bit longer. So on one hand, I think there's a chance some of these highly touted tight ends will drop a little bit in the draft. But on the other hand, like you were mentioning, you know, with the receiver class kind of, I think the NFL is a little bit split on them. I don't know if there's really any, you know, top two. guy. There's no Chase. There's no Jamar Chase in this class. And so we could see teams just have a look at it more like a holistic point of view. Like we're just going to get a pass catcher, a playmaker. We're going to get this guy, plug him into our offense and go from there. So from that

point of view, maybe we see two or three or four tight ends going the first round rather than some of these shrimpy 173 pound receivers or whatever. Like to me, that's just like a little bit worrisome Zay Flowers, Jordan Addison. Even Jalen Hyatt, very, very skinny guys. And so maybe the NFL teams will opt to go a little bit bigger and draft one of these other, quote-unquote, playmakers, even though they're not receivers technically. Right. Tank Dell, Josh Downs, who you mentioned. Josh Downs, yeah, he's tiny.

Like, well, it feels like a lot of that where it's all these guys, well, I'd rather have, pick a wide receiver, Downs Tillman, who you seem to like, relatively, you know, pick them in the second, pick a different position in the first because it's close enough. But the first might be those tight ends, as you mentioned. I was a little surprised to see Michael Mayer, as your number one tight end. You call them a berserker Urukai from Helms Deep.

Do you know what that is, Greg? No. Helms deep? No, I don't. That's a little in my head. It's a pretty great compare. It's just this like underground absolute like mythical being that is looked, again, it looks beyond something we would imagine from a human being.

And I just like, this is what I love about your writing. It was like very picturesque. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not there for that. But I feel like it was very evocative, Danny. And as someone, I saw Lord of the Rings in a special screening before it came out with other new, with other new line employees who were excited because it was going to change their lives. I lived, you know, I was a roommate with one of them. And people walked out of that like it was a religious experience.

They were so excited, so happy. and I was like halfway through I was like are they ever going to just stop walking it's just like they just keep walking and I've it's very rare that I keep my mouth shut and don't say anything that I'm thinking but I just kept my mouth shut and let them have their moment

so you can have this moment and talk Michael Mayer that's I mean that what you're describing is how I felt watching the Michael Mayer tape so there you go religious experience for me no I don't know to me it's tough because I really like Donald Kincaid from Utah I'm guessing we'll get to him But Michael Mayer, to me, is just really complete.

He's a really good blocker, very, very strong. And he's, you know, not the elite level athlete that some of these other guys in this class are, but he's a good athlete, is above average athlete. And he is the type of guy who could play on all three downs. He's not going to give away any, like, formational tendencies or play-calling tendencies. He's just kind of like that prototypical wide, tight end. And I think the thing where he separates himself a little bit from maybe some of the other guys in this class is just his catch strength. at the, you know, at the catch point, basically, he, in combat catch situations, he's, like,

unheard of good. Like, he's ridiculous. Is that, like, one of the new terms? That's from Lord of the Rings, too. Yeah. No, he, to me, he's just so strong. He just knows how to box out guys. He has vice grip hands, that kind of thing.

He's just so tough and physical at the catch point. He's going to be a good red zone. He's going to be a quarterback's best friend, all the cliches, but it's true. I love your, in your mock draft, because you're right. Right, he led the league, among all tight ends and contested catches. You said he's built like a tank and plays like one, and you paired them with the Detroit Lions, which is exactly sort of what they're looking for.

And out goes T.J. Hawkinson, like, in comes this guy who kind of fits what the lions are trying to do. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, they're a take a hunk out of you type of team. Like, that's their ethos. That's their personality. And he, I mean, I don't know if you guys saw him interviewing at the Combine, but Michael Mayer is the most intense individual I think I saw at that at the combine.

And, you know, he just kind of gets up there. He's like super confident. He just towers over everybody and he's just like, I don't know. It was hard to explain. But he's very Detroit lion's-y to be. Well, Dan Campbell is, you're just, you're profiling here. You're profiling. Absolutely.

I mean, if he's the most. This is what coaches do. But that makes sense. He's the most Dan, I mean, and that's what coaches do. I mean, Dan Campbell might be looking for the guy he could never be. Because it's not like Michael Mayer, it's like some incredible blocker or anything. I know there's like the Witten comparisons, but maybe he gets to be a good blocker, but he's not a huge guy or anything like that. But you're saying just in terms of his weight, like the competitiveness, yeah, just catching the ball.

That seems like an important thing for a titan. Right. And I think, you know, the lions want to be multidimensional. They want to run the ball. You know, they wouldn't sign David Montgomery. They want to have the ability to do it all kind of. And I think he doesn't, you know, he doesn't pigeonhole them into passing or running on any given down. So to me, that's where his value is.

And they don't have a guy that's really coming in to replace what Hawkinson was given them before. Our guy, Daniel Jeremiah, called Dalton Kincaid, a more explosive version of Zach Ertz. And your write-up, your comp, Colin, you said, I don't even want to say it, but I'm thinking it. What are you thinking for the people that? Yeah. Who do you think I'm talking about there? Kelsey. Yeah.

I think that's exactly what it was just like it's like, you're teasing us and I enjoy it. People get so mad, Greg, when you compare people, when you compare prospects to the elite players at the position, even though I do it all the time. It's just to me when he moves around, he's not quite as heavy as Travis Kelsey, but the way he moves, the smoothness, the fluidity, has run after the catch. It's reminiscent of Travis Kelsey. It really reminded me of Travis Kelsey watching him. So I've always said my, my sort of bit is that Travis Kelsey looks like he's pretending he's surfing when he runs routes. Like he's just kind of like, you know, I don't even know. Like, I don't know that surfing terms.

No, I think that's a good way to do it. He's very, fake it. He's very often kind of, you know, weaving through the Chargers. It looks like he's doing a cutback on a surfboard. But yeah, so to me, he's just like fluid, really natural, really good after the catch. He doesn't not, he does not block very well. in fact he kind of gets rocked when he's trying to block anybody but um you know as a pass catcher as a pure pass catcher i think he has potential to be the best in this class he's he's just so

smooth so athletic good body control can go up and twist and contort in the air and come down with football you know all that good stuff i want to talk more about kinkade because i'm i loved what i saw in my limited viewing admittedly limited but at first i wanted to talk and i wanted to bring our producer justin graver in here too um justin have you noticed this simmering bromance here between Mark and Danny. Because Mark is a word smith. It takes a lot to impress Mark in terms of writing ability, but he said it before the show. He said it a few times on the show.

He really likes the way Danny, you know, turns a phrase. And that's what gets Mark up in the morning. Yeah, and I can see the connection forming already over the Lord of the Rings, you know, comparisons. And I can just see it in Mark's eyes. He's smitten. I'm not going to deny it. Like, you've won me over with the entire project and you've done a great job. Have you two ever met?

Yeah. Not enough. I don't think so. Not enough is put into draft guide writing. You know what I mean? People think it's just kind of, I mean it. Like, people think it's just like all about evaluation. But over the years, like the evaluation is kind of even out. And some of the, I see you out there, some of these people making their big boards,

they don't try to entertain at all. That's where D.K. comes in. That's right. That's my niche right there. He's the Dalton Kincaid of Big Board writers. I don't know. To me, it'd be hard to imagine taking Michael Mayer over Dalton Kincaid, and I could totally see why Kincaid would go in front of all the receivers in this class,

even though that makes me nervous because of what you said about the tight end position, that it's just, man, it's just been really hard to project. But I'm almost a little surprised that Kincaid doesn't have even more pop. I guess just because he didn't play as much. maybe that's it because he just looks like when when i saw dj daniel jeremiah our guy like rank him that high without the tape as much like man i i think it's for a reason his hands are crazy he shakes off tacklers like crazy and his burst is just wild uh for a tight end at that size like i don't need to see the testing it's there on the field like he has balance he has the hands but it's the burst to me

because I think that's the easiest. I think the eye test does matter a little bit. And I think burst is something you can see. And like that dude is just going to get open. It's like hard to imagine if he's in the right system not making a ton of plays. And so to me he's more exciting and that I'm just falling for the shiny object. And I can totally see him going in front of any wide receiver in this class. And definitely I would want him ahead of mayor because he's more excited.

You know the meme that that gets shared on Twitter all the time where it's like the guy who all of a sudden leans forward in his chair when he's doing. doing the video games, he's got the controller in his hands. Like, this is to me what happened when I turned on the Kincaid tape. Yeah. I'm like, okay. Hold on. You have my attention because I kind of went in like thinking, oh, he's probably a little bit overrated, but no, I loved.

I loved everything about it. It was like one of the most exciting. There's like three or four players that you kind of like think of when because they're like honestly going through 100 and 200 players, you know, during the draft process, it becomes a slog. So he was one of like a handful of guys that I'm just like seriously. Whoa, this guy's awesome. I love this player.

And I think to me, you know, you mentioned like it's hard to imagine anyone picking mayor over him. I think to me, it's just stylistically, what do you want? It's kind of like the receiver position. There's just so many different types of receiver out there that it's almost like a vibe saying what kind of player do you want in your offense. So I could absolutely see Kincaid going over Mayer. It just depends on who's picking at that point.

I want the big playmaker. That's the vibe I like. I mean, they both have great hands. You can't tell me Dalton Kincaid doesn't have great hands. He has great hands, too. No, he does, for sure. I'm with Greg. I'm getting to the tape maybe a little bit later than you and fellow draft Nix around the country,

but someone that just jumped out to me, and I'm not alone in this one, was just Darnell Washington. And I'm thinking of a clip I saw where he was in a shifting situation with another big-bodied individual who was 6'4, and he towered over him because he's 6'7, he's 264. He's doing stuff at the combine with like the 20-yard shuttle that's insane. Like I don't know how this guy escapes the first round on any level because it's just like the concept of what you could do with him

and how athletic he is and what he looks like on a football field is just like sign me up for the next seven or eight years of this individual. Yeah. I mean, it's planet theory, right? There's just not very many guys on the planet. His bit that big and that fast, that athletic. And I was actually pretty shocked to see him. I think he ran the third fast.

Fastest three cone at the combine of any player, not just tight end, like of any players like Jackson Smith and Jigba in a corner or something, you know, were faster than him in the three cone, which was shocking. I don't know if that necessarily shows up on tape, but it just tells you here. Isn't that a problem? Everyone's like, well, you don't really see it when he plays football. I think it just tells you maybe a little bit more just how good of an athlete he is. Not necessarily like going to show up in terms of his route running, but he's just a really good athlete. He really can, you know, sink his hips and all that stuff. But to me, when I watched him, you know, he's a dominant run blocker in space. Like he engulfs people in the screen game when they get him moving in space. And like at the second level, he's absolutely dominant. So I think a team that likes using the screen game would absolutely love this guy.

I think he's very good, at least above average, as like an inline blocker as a, you know, in the passing game. And so you can use him as a inline guy to have that extra protection to the quarterback. so like he's he can do a lot of different things for your offense plus i think he's got there's just a lot of meat on the bone in terms of his ability as a pass catcher he's so big so physical he's 6-7-265 or you know i think he played at like 280 something honestly he might slim down for the combine but he's just such a dominant force in the red zone you can just throw it up and let him go get it i don't think he's the most natural pass catcher of this group but his ability to be a run blocker and pass blocker and basically do it all is what is going to get him in the first round he's probably going to be a first

pick, I'd say, just because of the physical traits and the upside there. It reminds me of this horrible experience I had in high school where I played cornerback because I was like my size and they were like just the 18th cornerback. And there was a game where like 17 guys got shredded and so I'm out there

and we were playing a team that had no quarterback so they were just direct snapping to like a left tackle who could run fast. And there were a couple scenarios where it's like, I've got this guy coming straight at me. Why am I on the earth right now? So I think that's how a smaller cornerback's going to feel against this, Washington.

I could see that. I could see the Titans taking. I forget who was the coach at the Combine who said like, or some personnel guy that was like, it really is important to be a good looking team coming off the bus. I mean, someone said that. And it's like, is it? I don't know.

If you're hanging outside the bus, I guess. Right. Like who is staying around that bus? But the Titans are that team that look great coming off the bus. The Patriots like to be that team a little bit too, or at least in the past they used to. We'll see. We're going to take a quick break, Danny.

and then we'll wrap up tight ends and any other big picture thoughts before we say goodbye. Okay, we are back. Danny, when you looked at athletic tight ends, why didn't you rank Sam Laporte a higher on your big port?

Number 60, this was the guy that intrigued me, I think, in the way that Darnell Washington intrigued Mark, just because you can see him getting, again, short area quickness where you can see him getting open quickly, which is what is going to happen in the NFL. He's stuck in an offense that's stuck in like, you know, 20, you know, 47.

And so they never know how to use their awesome tight ends that they have. But we've seen tight ends from Iowa obviously have a lot of success. Why is Sam LaPorteur not higher on your rankings? Defend yourself. Oh, man. I like that. You like LaPorta. I would love to see the consensus ranks. I feel like I'm a little bit higher.

that might be true. I guess it was kind of like when I saw the combine numbers plus his tape like his combine numbers are insane. He was like 90th percentile in most of these things. So he's a freaky athlete from Iowa.

I'm definitely doing the same school thing. But I don't care. No, I like it. I really do. I think he led their team in receiving the last two years. So that's what I'm saying. He's their go-to guy.

And you know, teams know that they're going to pass it to him. He still produces. I think all those things are very critical. He can move. He can do some option routes. He can block. And he can block a little too because he went to Iowa. And he can run after the catch.

He's really, he's like one of those guys that just refuses to go down. You know, it is kiddle-esque. Not to compare him necessarily straight up to kiddle, but, you know, he has that run off the catch ability.

Yeah, maybe I am a little bit too low on him. Oh, good. I'm convincing you. I do like him. I don't want to sound like I'm, you know, trying to tell you that I think he's not a very good player.

I think he's really good. I think he's going to be, you know, the type of tight end that in the NFL gets into the NFL and becomes really famous because he's going to catch a lot passes. I was trying to think who are the other Iowa tight ends? Because, yeah, because I think it was Greg Kosell, I heard say something recently. It was like, you know, tight ends in terms of production is often the scheme you're in.

And like he was calling out people that got a little too excited about Dalton Schultz and maybe I was one of them. I ranked him very high in my tight ends. He's in that offense. Whoever's in that offense is going to catch a lot of passes. And San Laporte is sort of the opposite as, as George Kiddow. I was trying to figure out

who were the other Iowa tight ends. There really weren't that. No fan. Okay. Dallas Clark also went to Iowa. Dallas Clark. That's a good LaPorte. Marv Cook, who was on the tight end,

New England, I mean, the Techma Bowl, New England Patriots, I believe, the original Tecmo Bowl tight end for the Patriots, Marv Cook. I also appeared in Lord of the Rings. Like the Dallas Clark. Who did you play with Tecmo Bowl, Mark?

Let's go around the room. What team? The original. I'm not talking Tecmo Super Bowl. We're old enough. Danny's not. Well, I played with the Cleveland Browns and you'd have Kevin Mack just smashing through people left and right. Okay.

That makes sense. That was actually a really fun team because they had Kevin Mac and Eric Metcalf. Right? Well, the second one had Metcalfe and that was a sort of a bad Browns team that you could form into a good one if you had the skills that some of us had. Who would you play with Danny? You're not as old as us, but you know, I'm close. I don't remember the

actual players. I do think it was the Phil Sims giant. Is the Giants? Was he on the Giants back in the day? Yeah, and they had a... thing where there was a cheat code where Lawrence Taylor on special teams could literally block every single extra points.

So if you got high scoring enough game, you'd have to get an extra touchdown on those Giants. I think I've played with the Giants all the time. I can't remember. There's a really good running back on that team I'm blanking on. Maybe you guys remember that. We've been Otis Anderson, I think. I think it was Otis. I think it was a lot of slants from Phil Sims. It was a lot of Lawrence Taylor

wrecking shop. Any other tight ends that excited you? I looked at a couple more. Luke Musker He was not the type of guy that is going to get me going in the morning. Okay. You know, like one of those tall, like he just looks like an injury waiting to happen.

Like he's too. Well, he was injured his whole career too. Right. And he's too tall. When you're that tall and he's not like a great mover after the catch or anything like that. He's going to go down on contact. I know Greg Kosell loves him some Tucker Kraft,

who I really hadn't heard of until the last week or two. You have him ranked pretty high. Any other hot tight end takes for you? I do like Tucker Kraft. I mean, you know, coming from a small school, he doesn't have a lot of hype, but he moves well. He's one of these big, broad-shouldered, beefy fellows, you know, just the type of player to expect South Dakota State to play. Luke Schoonmaker from Michigan, I'm actually writing him up today. You know, he's a pretty athletic guy.

He kind of reminded me of Cole Cabat. Oh, Dan, you have Musgrave 29, so I just assassinated one of your first round picks. You got to defend him now. So he's, to me, he's literally seven minutes, and I's just like, I like, I like, don't like the type of player. he is, you know? Like, best case, it's Mike Gasecki. You can't, it's hard to watch his tape and be, like, really excited about it. But what you have to do is sort of project what he could be in the future, I think,

because, you know, he hasn't played for most, he didn't, certainly didn't. He played two games, I think, in 2022. But, you know, the athleticism, the burst, the movement skills, all that stuff. It's like, this is what we're projecting with all tight ends. But it seems worse than all the other guys. But maybe I'm wrong. That's just using my eyes. And, like, it's kind of like Brandon Jacobs.

I always, like, Brandon Jacobs was awesome, but there was such an area where you could hit him. That seems like... The strike so. That's why he keeps getting hurt, I think, but that's fair. I want to give you some context about this tight end class, though. Like, it feels like you're picking nits on Musgrave, but, like, all these guys are just absolutely elite athletes.

So, Kentley Platt does the RAS score, the RAS score. And this goes back to 1980s. It's basically a, like, it's a score that spits out. He spits out a score based on like your athletic testing and your size and all that. And out of 1,091 tight ends, so just over 1,000 tight ends going back to 1987. Zach Coontz from Old Dominion is the first most athletic. He's the most athletic tight end ever.

Darnow, Washington ranks 14th. Luke Shoemaker ranks 16th. Luke Musgrave ranks 26th. Tucker Craft ranks 37th. Sam Leporta ranks 57th. And that doesn't even include Dalton Kincaid, who didn't test. And Michael Mayer, who is an above average tight end. Like, this is an absolutely freak show group of tight ends.

Like, they're all just insanely athletic. Like, you know, I just cannot wait to see. I think you alluded to it earlier, landing spot is really going to matter. Like Greg Costale says, like a lot of the times, a tight end production is a function of the offense and a function of the quarterback. And I believe that I do think that's really true. So like if Luke Musgrave lands with the Cowboys, for instance, I'm going to be extremely excited from a fantasy point of view. if he lands with a team that likes to rotate and have like three tight ends on the field at all times

and really spread the ball around, I'm probably going to be avoiding that. But landing spot's going to be key with a lot of these guys, but I think the bottom line is they're just really, really, really good athletes at the tight end position. That's why so many people are excited about this draft class. And Zach Coons, you mentioned from Old Dominion, is 6'7 and had those incredible scores.

So it's just another example of that. And I mean, it seems like even with Kyle Pitts, it takes these NFL tight ends typically like till year three if not maybe year two in some cases to flourish. I mean it's just over and over and over and I wonder if this is the class where we get because of fit

because of the way that tight ends are being used differently than in the past like we can reverse that trend and they can get some year one stars out of the gate because that's been so atypical. I think we can and honestly if you look back at what Pitts did as a rookie I think he set the record for most receiving yards for a rookie or at least he was second to

to I'm blanking on the name here. You know, the very famous Ditka, Ditka. Anyway, come on. You don't know Dicka's first name? I'm terrible. I'm terrible with names. Mike Dicka. Anyways. Yes, so I think we kind of forget that

Kyle Pitts won over a thousand yards as a rookie. Even last year, you know, Greg Dulcich looked pretty good for the Broncos at times when he was playing. You know, I think we're starting to see tight ends get involved in the passing game a little bit earlier than And, you know, historically speaking, has been the case.

And, you know, offenses are changing. It's, it's more spread out. You know, teams are passing more, generally speaking. And I think just as we get further, further along, like, teams, or tight ends coming up through the ranks are more athletic and have run more routes throughout their current. It's the same deal with all these receivers that are coming in. It's like you've been playing seven on seven since you're, you know, six years old. And you're just more in tune with the passing game.

So, yeah, I think. There is something there that we could see these tight ends start to be a little bit more productive early on in their career. I actually heard an interesting note from Andy Staples this morning on the athletic podcast. And he was saying with basketball kind of losing the like power forward position as like that sport evolves, the power forward position of you got like six foot five, you know, 250, 260 pound guys or whatever. They're starting to play football instead. They're starting to play tight ends. So we're like seeing more and more of these guys. I thought that was a really interesting point.

I hadn't really thought about it that way, but maybe there's something there, too. Works out for us. Well, right, and I look at it with every sport, like, bigger, every big athlete now is the best big athlete in their sports history. Like, tennis players, like, big tennis players are so much more athletic than big tennis players used to be.

It's certainly that way with basketball and Web and Yama and everything, and now we're seeing it at, like, the big positions. I am a little concerned, and maybe this is more of, like, a next-gen staff. or analytics department type of thing. When you were listing off the names of the tight ends, you name. There's a lot of Zachs, Luke's, Tulks, Dalton's. It all seems to be in like, a lot of Zachs and Luke's.

So just something to watch out for. It's a big concern for you. Okay. you could just go out with some sort of mic drop here that we will then bring back up to you right after the draft or maybe after the 2000-23 season. My favorite player in the draft is Devon A-Chain running back out of Texas A&M.

Who? Okay. He's small. That's a hot take. 188 pounds. I'm not saying he's the best player. He's my favorite player. So I really hope he lands with a team that will use him and turn him into the next work done.

That's all. I like that. Where do you think he might go, by the way? Just like what's a rough round approximation? Probably late, second, early third, or some part in the later part of day two, I think. I like that because this is kind of spice rackish here. He always would have a former and current, you know, hopefully soon we'll have him on on the show too, Spice Rack. He's going to be mad when he hears this.

And we'd always make him stick on one. player, Devon A chain is your guy. I'm going to think of Danny Kelly every time his name is brought up and when it plays in the NFL. No, it's good. Because he's probably going to be... He's going to be fun and good. And if you nail this, the world is your

orister. Yeah. All right, thanks, Danny. We'll see you. Thank you. All right, thanks, guys. All right, we did it. Did we get smarter? I think so. We talked. I mean, part of it was, like, to even hold the conversation. We had to do a certain amount of work going in.

Got smarter from that and then got smarter from these two fellows. No, it is good. The more you put into it, the more you get out on draft day, too. And maybe we're basic bitches here, but it's like, it's more fun to talk about these skill position players. Yeah, I think we are basic poaches. If you're got to, like, do some tape study and whatnot, isn't it more fun to watch the skill? Then, like, interior linemen or guards? Or even defensive ends or cornerbacks.

You really grind in that, like, the route tree tape that the cornerbacks are doing? I guess you can look at the highlights, you can look at the target, certain things. But it's easier, frankly, and more fun to do the wide receivers, running backs, quarterbacks. Yeah, and I think when your draft prep begins in, you know, mid to late March, you've got to prioritize the fun spots. You're right. I feel bad for saying who on Devon Aitchin, too, because he's a day-two draft guy. I don't like that he's sort of a rival in the Tajay Spears, who's my favorite player of the draft.

You know, he's kind of in that lane, that sort of running back. Justin, hey, I want you to give us a grade for this show. B-minus. Okay. That's very fair. I think that is more than fair and consistent with previous grading on this show. On Wednesday, I won't be here. I can't wait to be on the beach in Hawaii, put in my AirPods.

I'm probably not doing this, but I should put on the chaos pod starring Mark Sessler. And guess. Yeah. Patrick Claibon told me this morning he's still in. So that's a win. And we're going to confirm with Colleen. And I think we're going to try to cook up something spicy for you, Greg, on that beach. I can't wait.

I think that is going to drop on Thursday. And we'll be back then with Mark and whatever he has cooking up. This was fun. Until then. all. This is an eye-heart podcast. Thank you.