No Jumper - Open Mike Eagle on The Weird Rap Scene, Chicago Drill, Making Traumatic Music & More

Episode Date: December 29, 2022

Open Mike Eagle talks to Lush about his early days, mentorship, positive influence, divorce and more. ----- 0:00 Intro 2:30 Lush discusses his family's connection to the New York music scene 6:45 Lush asks Mike what “art rap" means and why he doesn’t use that term anymore 11:25 Mike says that mainstream rap is in its “weird” phase and gives credit to Lil Wayne 16:30 Lush and Mike talk about The Bay and ATL being the most supportive of their local artists 17:40 Lush brings up Almighty's Music to Mike Eagle and knowing his dad’s music 24:50 Mike says it's important for rappers to learn their own music, perform it well, and discusses Ice Spice’s marketing failures and performances 27:49 Mike speaks on rappers punching in every line and not being able to perform that style live 37:20 Mike on growing up in Chicago and all the artists that emerged from there: Twista, The Cool Kids, Chance The Rapper, NoName, Chief Keef 42:20 Mike says that many Chicago OG's were locked up and not able to mentor young people 47:40 Mike talks about his fanbase being mainly white 49:58 Mike on working with kids in after school programs and showing them a different way 51:30 Mike speaks on fashion style at rap battles and pulling up after work 52:30 Lush on Mike working with Flying Lotus and Anderson .Paak 55:40 Mike talks about promoting his album as an independent artist and how his ex reacted to his divorce album 59:30 Mike talks about his newest album and going back to his roots in hip hop ----- NO JUMPER PATREON http://www.patreon.com/nojumper CHECK OUT OUR NEW SPOTIFY PLAYLIST https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5te... FOLLOW US ON SNAPCHAT FOR THE LATEST NEWS & UPDATES https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... CHECK OUT OUR ONLINE STORE!!! http://www.nojumper.com/ SUBSCRIBE for new interviews (and more) weekly: http://bit.ly/nastymondayz  Follow us on SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4ENxb4B... iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/n... Follow us on Social Media: https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... http://www.twitter.com/nojumper http://www.instagram.com/nojumper https://www.facebook.com/NOJUMPEROFFI... http://www.reddit.com/r/nojumper JOIN THE DISCORD: https://discord.gg/Q3XPfBm Follow Adam22: https://www.tiktok.com/@adam22 http://www.twitter.com/adam22 http://www.instagram.com/adam22 adam22hoe on Snapchat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's the Drilly, lush Uno, and a lot of people have been saying, bring back the L.A. heavy hitters, you know what I mean? The real lyricists, the real MCs, the top-level creatives. And so I had to, you know, my old dear friend, Mike Eagle. We go back, don't we? Yeah, you feel me? Yeah. We go back like the front seat. You feel me?

Like, yeah. Yes, sir. No, I'm really, really, it's an honor to get to chop it up with you. I'm going on record and just say, I feel like you're one of the most important artists in the world. Like, and a great representative of hip hop culture. You're like, I feel like you're a real ambassador. Well, I feel that. Like that second part, I'm pretty comfortable with that because I do feel like I'm able to access a lot of spaces.

Right. But other people aren't able to go in just because, you know, I can code switch a little bit. You know what I'm saying? I know how to write an email real good. Like I can slide into a bunch of different spaces based on that. In terms of my importance, man, it's like I always feel weird and people say that because I could see the potential of that. But, you know, that's not often represented in what life reflects back at me. You know what I'm saying?

Financially and things of that. Financially, status-wise, you know, the conversations I'm in, the conversations I'm not in. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know, I think part of this whole indie thing is that when you participate in music on an indie tip for no matter how much popularity you might want to have, you have to accept a certain amount of invisibility. You know? And it just, it hits you in weird ways. in some spaces you go to people really mess with you,

people really know what you did and what you're up to and other places you don't exist. Right. You know what I'm saying? Well, there's definitely not that many, quote unquote, indie rappers and definitely not from the scene that we come from that are traversing these waters of the spaces,

you know, being listed amongst Rolling Stones, top albums of the year and billboards. You know what I mean? and like top, you know, pitchfork, you know, like being on these prestigious list. Something that I've, I feel like you're the kind of artist that I, so my parents, I love my parents to death. My dad actually, he's been, you know, both my parents are from New York. My mom's from the Bronx.

My pops is from the Upper West Side. Oh, yeah. You hip hop in your blood. Oh, yeah, it's in my DNA. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My grandparents are from East Harlem. Okay. It's literally in my DNA.

My father actually was, you know, a big jazz drummer. He was a protege of Philly Joe Jones, who was Miles Davis's drummer back in the day and all that. So he was, you know, there wasn't too many white dudes at that time taking the bus all the way uptown and hanging out with these dudes until they were slumped over off or whatever they was doing and all that. And it's funny because you'll understand why I'm giving you this background when I get to where I'm going here. his, actually his stepfather, who was the man that raised him, was a conductor, a classical conductor. And he would always tell my dad, like, you know, what you do, this jazz, it's not music. You know what I mean?

It's good, but it's not music. And I had very similar dialogue to him growing up about hip-hop. About hip-hop. And what wound up, and obviously, you know, like, they would see Jay-Z performing at the Grammys and Kanye and be like, okay, like, this is kind of. of good, but still weren't fully embracing it. And then what actually kind of pushed them over the edge and made them acknowledge hip hop

was Hamilton. And you see where I'm going with this stuff. And my dad is one of my favorite quotes. And like, you know, I love him to death, but this, I have to put you on blast pop. He said the thing that's great about Hamilton

is it's like they took hip hop and combined it with music. Damn. Yeah. That's mean as hell. Scanless, right? And he doesn't even realize what he was saying is out of pocket. You know what I mean?

And personally, look, I understand the level of artistry that Hamilton is. And it's an incredible accomplishment. Shouts to, you know, Lin-Manuel and all that. I don't like it, though. You know what I mean? I've never seen it. Yeah. But that's part of the whole discourse around it is like,

it's this hip-hop thing that a lot of people in. the hip hop generation can't even afford to watch. Like, like, Lynn Van Well, I know you is a dude that my homie immortal technique bullied in high school. That's what I know of you. Which is like super condescending of me to even, but that's literally like- But yeah, I mean, I think his, you know,

his journey does reflect that. And I don't know much about his journey, but I know that like him and his people, they used to do that freestyle love Supreme County, New York. And like, they love hip hop in that, you know, brainy, nerdy way that like a lot of us did. Right, absolutely. And they was able to put it together with different elements to make something like Hamilton.

Right. The children of organized confusion and things like that and like just high level, you know, cerebral hip-hop music. Bro, when he did, and this is just a quick aside, but like the reason I really, I kind of do mess with him, did you ever see when he hosted SNL? I actually did not. He wrapped his whole monologue and it was incredible. That's what I'm saying. Like, he nice.

I'm not going to go out here and say he's whack. It's just not. And I think it's beyond what he's doing, but it's statements like what my dad said. It's what Hamilton means. Right. And, you know, like, what it means to these, like, older white people and the way they can kind of look at hip hop overall in a really dismissive manner, but co-sign that. And see, like, I feel like you're able to kind of transcend those boundaries. Like, I wish my parents knew about.

open mic eagle right you know what I mean maybe maybe I'm saying something that might translate to them a little easier than a lot of other rappers subject matter or absolutely that sort of thing I feel that it's like really lofty subject matter but here's the thing like and I know you describe there's a lot of different ways you describe your style and you're so much more than a rapper at this point for sure you're way more than a rapper just like but as an emcee you know you talk about art rap. What defines art rap? What's the difference between art rap and not? It's so crazy, man, because I don't, like, I don't say that no more. But when I started saying it, and this was when my first

album came out in 2010, like, I was like, I'm about to go hard with this phrase. Ain't no luncheon like an art rap luncheon, because an art rap luncheon is so smart. Yeah, art rap party. Yeah. But I was, so it was like, there's two things happening at that time. time and I think it's really important that this phrase comes out of that time like just 2009 2010 like mainstream rap was just hella boring at that time and it was just like the most you know homogenized like you know everything was club music um some of the street stuff was good but nothing was really like exciting 2009 2010 like to me that's like um like whiz califa and currency were kind of coming up. They weren't quite mainstream yet. Kendrick and then were coming up

and Jay Cole. Exactly. It's like the people who would come to make it interesting was bubbling, but they wasn't like. Blue and exile, I think, dropped that year. Exactly. Exactly. You know, there's a lot of one-hit wonders around that time. Like, you know, everybody was kind of following like the Rick Ross. It was a lot of, yeah. Jay didn't, Jay was kind of in an in-between space. It was like, like Holy Grail around in. I was going to say, like, Kingdom Come area and all that. Like, he didn't, like, he didn't kind of know. what kind of statement to make. And this was right before Kanye really, really, like, hit and made it artie, artsy.

Like, like, really, this is right before a twisted fantasy. Exactly, which was, I think, 2011. Right, yeah. Right. And so that kind of put a whole different focus and opened up, like, this thing that Little Wayne was playing with, because he was at the top, right? Yep. But he was really embracing his own weirdness in a way that was very singular to him,

but that started to open the space up, too, when he started, like, skateboard. And we started calling itself an alien, like, oh, things were at this point where they were just starting to open up and you could be something other than what the traditional club rapper was thought of then. But for the most part, at that moment, it was a lot of sameness. And so that was one thing that was happening. And then where I was and what I was paying attention to was stuff like Shabas palaces, stuff like Danny Brown. Serengeti, there was this new wave of like underground people doing really interesting shit and like... And it's funny because Shabazz Palace has been around for so long.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, shout out, shout out to my man Ishmael, yeah, from diggable planets to cherry wine to Shabat. He's always kept it weird, like, you know what I'm saying? Even after the Grammys and all that. But I'm looking at what's happening in the underground. and I want to contextualize myself with that stuff. And I was thinking about, I remember I was driving to Vegas.

It was one, you know, a long kind of, you know, four or five hour drive, and you're just kind of driving thinking. And I was thinking about like rock music got all these subcategories. Right. You can be bluegrass, you can be punk, you can be electronic, you can be progressive, you can be all these different things. Alternative, heavy metal. rap is just rap you know and I'm like damn they got an art rock and you know when you hear something

called art rock you come into it with different expectations do you consider art rock like prog rock kind of like i think it's kind of like prog i think about stuff like stereo lab okay uh broadcast a lot of european stuff yeah some european stuff yeah but just like you know you some people even might call like radio head art rock right which i and it's funny because i always called it brit pop but they like evolved past that. Right. Right. Because it's not just like simple,

you know, easily palatable, mainstream core progressions. It's like, they get kind of weird, you know? Very. Especially starting with Kid A,

then you got a sharp left turn. Exactly. So I wanted a space made psychologically in rap for people to be weird, do cool stuff, to have a, to have a phrase

associated with us. So when you came, like, my dream was to have like a section in a record store like Amiva, where it was just the art-wrapped section. Right. And you're thumbing through that, knowing that you're coming to that, expecting to hear something different than what you might be hearing on the mainstream. But since that time, the mainstream got weird. It did.

You know? Well, and it's interesting you brought that up. Because to me, when the mainstream got weird is Atlanta. You know what I mean? is when all the Atlanta trap rappers started blowing it. I'm talking about like post GZ and T.I. I'm talking about Young Thug, you know, Puey Longway, that whole, even a little bit later, Playboy Cardi. And to me, and I'm really interested to get your take on this.

Well, to me, that's the wave that started with Wayne embracing his weirdness. I think he made it where Thug could be weird and Cardi could be weird and Uzi Verde. You know, I think he, like Wayne, I think really doesn't get the credit for, because when he was doing that, when he was top of the mainstream, like, there was no reason to think that that would work. There was no reason to think that that would open up this whole lane of self-expression for people getting million-dollar contracts and having the most, you know, mass appeal potential in the world. But, you know, can rock a nice, elegant dress on the cover. I was going to say, yeah, literally, in a skirt. I really think I can point a lot of that back to him. I think there's a multiplying factor.

There's what Wayne was doing, is what Kanye was doing. You know, Drake to a certain extent, I wouldn't call it what he was doing weird, but I think he opened up a vulnerability lane. They just made it where when you get to that level, nobody's expecting you to do the same old thing. You can do the same old thing if you want to, but if you're not, ain't nobody mad at that no more. And that's all I ever really wanted for the genre was for people's expectations to not be so narrow. And I feel like we're here now.

I feel like, man. And I think this year's album releases really kind of put it on display where even the mainstream rappers know, they no longer have to compete with each other. No. Kendrick don't have to make the same album as Drake. He don't have to make the same album as Jay Cole. you know, like you can, you as a mainstream artist,

even though there's a whole floor in a building full of office workers who literally depend on your album selling what it's supposed to sell for them to stay employed, even though it's still that much pressure, that pressure doesn't result in you having to do a cookie cutter thing. 1,000%. Now, you, obviously, you know, I know your origins go back to Chicago,

Chicago, but, and we're going to talk about that a little bit, but, you know, when you moved to L.A., you were a part of the Project Bload Collective, and which I want to delve into a little bit more of as well. But one thing that I've always found is to me, what rappers like Young Thug and even Migos when they first came out and Peewee Longway and all those ATL guys, to me, it was pretty much the same thing as Project Blode, except for instead of talking about, about, you know, incense-esque topics and, you know, and exploring more esoteric themes. They're talking about dope dealing, gangbanging. They're talking about street-shed. Yeah. But it's the same, like, they're flipping styles with the same dexterity as what you guys were doing.

Do you feel like there's truth to that? I do. I just talked to a riddlord from CVE recently. I had him on my podcast, and that's one of the questions I was asking him. It's like, because a lot of what they're doing, you know, I really think. CVE and crews like that around LA, hip hop clan, like they were doing that, you know, they still do that. Right. But it's just like the way that I think the main difference is this. In places like Atlanta, in places like Minneapolis, and even starting now, like now at this

point in places like Chicago, those cities really mess with their local artists. For sure. You know, and there's a real, there's a real investment. from people to like boost up their local rap heroes. LA never cared. LA never cared. LA like LA needs you to go get famous everywhere else. And then for Dr. Dre to come pluck you up, you know what I'm saying? Or else like, you know, they don't really, they don't really, so, you know, so you have, you've had people who have been incubating those styles, like you said, forever and just not gotten the credit for it.

And I think sometimes that's a little tragic to me, you know what I'm saying? Because like I just, I wish, I wish that people, I guess just dug under the surface a little bit more. Because I bet everybody who loved me goes would love hip hop clan, would love CB. Right, right. 1,000 percent especially. And it's funny you made that statement about L.A. Because a lot of people think I'm from the Bay Area. Because when they first met me, that's like when I kind of rose to prominence in hip hop.

not prominence. I know what you know. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like, notoriety, yeah. Whatever type of notoriety I have, as minimal as it may be. Like, but that was stemmed from the Bay area. Which, which we, if I'm listing places where they support they own, the Bay is probably high on the list.

Probably the top place. Yeah, yeah. Even in Atlanta, like, even in Atlanta, they support their own, but part of the reason that happens is that the people who, like, you know, they fund certain artists down there, they pay the money that they have to pay to get it on Atlanta radio. Right. So they get people into it early. Or the strip clubs, however they break records out there. Exactly.

Like they participate in that ecosystem, so they blow up music locally first. But it is a large ecosystem that you do got to pay to get into. Where like the Bay, it ain't about that. It's like they'll just check for you. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And, you know, obviously that's like the mecca of the independent market.

Another place that's really similar, I would say, like Houston and Memphis. They're all kind of on that tip as well. But that was a, it's funny that I didn't really start getting recognized by L.A., my town where I grew up in until the Bay started jacking me like that. And it was a, it's kind of weird how that works. Now, recently, I don't know if you know this, but Almighty Suspect, one of my fellow podcasters over here. I was true. I texted, I texted cool. Yeah.

When I saw that, I'm like, wait a minute. So you, so you were, I mean, we all knew him since he was a little ass kid. Yeah, I don't know if I ever actually met him. probably have. Right. But I've been knowing about his music for a minute. All-City Jimmy, you know, no can't do. My brother.

He's putting me on his music like five, six years ago. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because you could, as stylistically different as it is, you could hear a little bit of the blow. Definitely hear his pops in there. Rightful Man, L.A. Cool.

Now, recently, a few days ago, we were having a discussion on one of the news segments we do. And there was a back, It was stemmed as a rare occasion where on No Jumper, we're discussing battle rap, so obviously I'm real excited. Does that not happen a lot? Not too often. It does do an extent, but you know what I mean? Like, this isn't necessarily, it's a much younger crowd. They're not really super focused on.

Yeah, there definitely are exceptions of the rule. But there is a debate kind of ensued going back and forth between Almighty and the homie AD. Really dope rapper from Compton, one of the main podcast. over here too. And he basically, he had never in the 80s in his early 30s and has been rapping in LA for a long as time like outside outside everybody knows AD he had never heard of Project Blow. Yeah, I believe it. And it's crazy because then I was like bro, you never heard pistol grip pump on my lap at all times you know what I mean like yeah yeah yeah like that's like the lineage right there but is it kind of interesting to you like why do you feel

like the influence of the blode is still prevalent, but why do you feel like a lot of this generation isn't really tuned into it like that? Because I think honestly, if you really look at the bloat, like the blow stopped happening around like 2013, 14, like really week to week.

Like when I got here, like and I moved here permanently in 2004, it was still going week to week. And we kept it going. I really want to say another 10 solid years, but then you know, there was an incident that happened in the blow

where Ben Carlwell who know who that's his spot shout out triple triple quadruple shout out to Ben Carlwell the man something happened in there because you know I think the thing that people don't really understand

about the blow because like you said it's got the incense it's got the dashikis you know what I'm saying like you got people in there groove and dancing and all that but the blow is in the middle of like two, three different hood. That's in the Fode's hood right there.

It's like on the edge of a couple things. It's a real active area. Absolutely. People who are a part of the blow who grew up in L.A., even if they wasn't banging, that's a part of their life. For sure. You know, so like occasionally street stuff will bubble up in there. Whenever that happened, Ben, we'll shut it down for a while.

But like, that last incident that happened, he just really, like, you know, put a pause on it for a while. I still think it's room for it to maybe come back, like, it's been so long. everything's kind of blown over and, you know, but it was getting to that point where, and it gets to that point sometimes with street stuff bubbles up in there, and, like, a lot of times the blow

has like a temple feel where you don't disrespect it. Right. But then, you know, certain incidents just, people lose their minds and then stuff happens and it gets really real in there. But to answer your question, I think if it was still a week-to-week thing that people could really still go to

and sign the list and get on in rhyme, I feel like the connection would be more immediate for people. You know, now I feel like it's more of a legacy thing. It's more like, yeah, we still get together. We had the anniversary. If you look at what verbs is doing with bananas. That's what I was going to say. Like there are still, which to me is the closest thing to the spirit of the blood.

It's in the same room. Shout to birds. Shout to birds. Shout to verbs. Um, you know, it's definitely carrying on the spirit. But bananas is a different thing of its own, too. Like, you still got people, you still got super sharp MCs that come in. And, you know, it's people perform, as people rapping outside.

But it doesn't carry the name Project blows. People don't necessarily know that that's part of the lineage. And I think that's, like, now it's at the point where you got to know somebody from the blow to know about the blow. Because it's not a thing that's still happening, you know. It's so strange, too, because to me, it's still like, and it's just because the way my brain has been wired since. the 90s when I was a youngster in high school going over there and all that. Like it's that's synonymous

you know like 43rd and you know what I mean? Like that's literally there's no other way to refer to that as than as the blowed. But no it's definitely a new era and I feel like that's something that's drastically missing. I do too. You know. But

the thing that always trips me out or and I learn about these things because I don't know about AD right. But for him to be outside I haven't been rapping. I probably, you say he's 30. He's probably been rapping in LA 10, 15 years. Oh, yeah, for sure he has.

That means he's been rapping someplace I don't know about. Right. You know what I'm saying? And that's the thing. It's like there's different pockets of scenes as L.A. is so big. And, like, you know, different things happen in different hoods. And it's just like, damn, I don't know. You know what I'm saying?

Now, to be fair, he is from Compton. Right. And Compton is kind of its own world. It's his own planet. But I don't know, like, where do people perform in Compton? Where do people go to get hurt in Compton? Right. You know what I'm saying?

Well, I mean, like, look, your moniker, open mic, Eagle, you come from the open mic scene going back to Shytown and, you know, and there used to be all kinds of open mics all over the place. I feel like that's pretty much an antiquated concept at this point. But that is so maddening to me, is confusing to me because, like, with all of the music that's being made right now, like, we've never been able to make music easier. you would think that more than ever we would need places to come perform songs one would assume you know so it's like it's so wild that like yeah this consumer technology is at an all time high

but the places that we have to perform is at an all time low like how does that work I feel like the demand should be higher than ever well and I think like you would think but I think that's kind of as a result of back in the day I don't know about you but if I wanted to find other MCs to collab with if I wanted to find producers to work with

We had to go outside. Right. You know what I mean? We didn't have the liberty of social media, and we didn't have, you know, pro-sumer quality audio gear or even recording on our damn iPhones and shit. You know what I mean? I think you make a great point.

So, because what you're speaking to right now is that you don't need it as much for the networking now because you can do all that online. Right. But, yeah, I guess. In fact, I could do a song with someone from Germany tonight. Right. Yeah.

I mean, yeah. I just, I think just, as an MC. And I think this goes along with the fact, too, that a lot of cats, they'll do shows right now and they're rapping over their own lyrics. They don't really know their own songs a lot of time. And I know that there's a whole different way to engage with performance where that doesn't really matter so much. But if you look at, like, the verses with the locks and dipset, like, oh, there is something to be an MC and, like, knowing how to do that. And I think that's kind of what's getting lost. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's, it's, people will say that

emceeing isn't necessary or it's antiquated until it is. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think, you know, I've seen, I've seen a Drake concert. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've seen, I've seen, I never seen a Jay-Z concert live, but I've seen him perform on video. Like, he rap his ass off. You know what I'm saying? He's rapping the whole time. Wayne, Ross, Cole, like, ain't none of these people half-assing it on stage.

You know, like, everybody's, you know, even, you know, even lyrics Drake didn't write. Yeah. He tried to perform. the shit out of him. You know what I'm saying? He's not rapping over the reference. And I think, you know, and I'm sure that in everybody's

journey, they, you know, somebody drills that down into them and they rehearse and they get it. But like, I just think it's an important component to all rappers. It's an important thing for you to be able to, like, control a stage, hold a stage down, get your words

across, deliver them to people. You know what I'm saying? 1,000%. Breath control, live, all of that. Having to learn, and you know what, I've seen it, and I've seen it for several years, is one of the greatest disservice to up-and-coming artists when they start buzzing. If they have, like, a record that's resonating and going viral or is a hit record, the powers that be, or whoever they're signed to, is going to thrust them onto a national stage, have them doing tours, have them performing at the Rolling Louds and all that shit.

And these people are not seasoned performers, and then they wind up playing themselves, out super super tough like an example recently is a is ice spice i've seen that happen to her and um you know she's what's funny is she's actually not whack yeah she's really interesting yeah like i like i've i've only heard a couple of songs and i'm like oh there's something happening there's something there is there definitely is it's more but you but the way she's being marketed and the way she's being just kind of forced thrust on a national stage before she has a handle on her creative process, then you see her struggling to find the beat. You see her not being, having her head wrapped around her cadences and things like that.

She's not trained like that. Yeah. And you can, you know, and again, it's back to the consumer technology thing where you can have so many reps in the studio now. Uh-huh. Have no reps on stage. Right. That's rough.

Yeah. All the punch-ins and all that. Yeah. Like, you can write a song and record a song that there's literally no way for you to perform on stage because you didn't leave yourself in your room to breathe. Right. You know what I'm saying? Which is kind of like, to me,

I'm all about pushing boundaries forward, so it's something different. You know what I mean? I have, I don't, I can't, it's hard for me to get into that style where like they punch every line in. And I see the energy of it. Like my son rocks with that stuff.

Right. And I see the energy of it. I see that it is new and different. But like just as a trained rapper, all I can think about is, damn, you're playing yourself, because you're not going to be able to do this. Like, you can't, you, you've literally not left a moment for you to have a sip of oxygen.

Like, there's no way you're going to be able to get through this verse. And then you also come from the school of rappers like Micah Nine, who didn't have a millisecond of oxygen his damn self. But guess what? He can replicate that live to a T flawlessly. I mean, I'm not really sure if he's a regular human being. Like, he's a super, superhuman. He was born to MC and you add that with his jazz proclivities. And he's more of a jazz instrumentalist as a rapper than he is just like a normal.

He's like a trumpet. Yeah. And it's like an alien playing trumpet. Like it's a whole other thing that's happening with him. And like the breath control we're talking about is from like his understanding of jazz. And taking that deep breath in the beginning and just metering out the oxygen. and the CO2 as necessary to, you know what I'm saying? And the circular breathing, he can do that too

where, like, he can be exhaling and inhaling at the same time. Yeah, it's, you know what I'm saying? He's like playing the didgerie do, essentially, when he wraps. It's nuts. You know, like, you know, having a background, being from Chicago and then cutting your teeth in L.A. as well,

it's like, it's interesting on so many levels. Now, L.A. has a lot of different styles, like you said, Like that's why someone like AD has a fruitful, successful rap career but never heard of the blowed. And then you come from there. It's really interesting. But, you know, there's multiple different gangster rap scenes in L.A. There's a whole hipster rap scene. There's traditional backpacker in the line of, you know, like the sick jack-ins and the, you know what I mean, psycho realm.

And then even the whole people under the stairs contingent and dilated and all that. There's all these different scenes. And there's like the hyper-lirical double-time cadence project blow stuff. And to me it was always interesting that, you know, Chicago's similar too. You got the whole Chicago, you have the whole hipster, Lupe Fiasco, you know, chance the rapper Vic Mensa movement. You have the whole obviously drill music, you know what I mean? And then you have the Logan Square cipher scene and then like a kind of a more,

for lack of a better word like black version of that. which is in the south side, kind of evolving from common and, you know, no ID. The High Park and South Shore. 100%. And then, of course, you got, like, the West Chicago snipers. That's what they call it sniping, the same way we call it chopping in L.A. The double-time cadence. Going back to crucial conflict, psychodrama, all of that, twist.

Speed, not mobsters. What is it about, like, why are these styles prevalent in L.A.? What is it about the double-time style that makes it popular in L.A.? and Chicago. Now, the only other places I feel like that really were the origins of that style, you could obviously look to like certain rappers from New York from back in the day flipping it,

but to me, it's Memphis, the Bay Area, L.A. and Chicago. And really, like, I want to say, Chicago and L.A. are, like, the epicenters of that style. I think, I think you, you nailed it. And, and honestly, I can't, I can't say I understand why the west side of Chicago

and South LA came up with the same rap style. Like that, like, I think about that a lot. And you talk to the OGs, like, you talk to LA Cool. Like, he talks about it too, how, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a certain kinship. And honestly, I don't even know how. I don't even know how. Like, it doesn't even make sense.

You know what I'm saying? That the good life in the early 90s and in the streets of the west side, like people would have ended up rapping the same. And does it have that? anything to do with you think, I mean, the west side of Chicago is way more quote unquote country than the south side, right? And that's

kind of like a more country bounce. You know, I think that makes sense. Or am I reaching too much? I'd say that what I would associate more country is more of a like a layback kind of style. Or even when it comes to chop

and the way peace used to chop. Like he chopped with a twang and you know what I'm saying? And it was more like that was more of a country kind of sound where I felt like the, you know, the west side chop of a, I mean, of a twister and the chop of LA cool, like it's just, it strikes as much more of a city style, like a hood style, like, you know, but I think west side of Chicago, like you were saying how there's a bunch of different gangster styles in L.A. Absolutely. It's a bunch of different gangster styles in the west side of Chicago, too. Like, if you look at like

the brat, you know what I'm saying? How, like, her style was more like snoops than it was, like, commons you know what I'm saying like there's always been this part of the west side of Chicago that felt like the west side of the country you know what I'm saying that when it was east versus west like it was like a little many east versus west inside of Chicago because like the south side of Chicago took a lot of cues from New York you know what I'm saying well and then common literally of beefing with ice cube and shit like exactly but there was people in Chicago who was riding more with cube than they was with common right saying because there was as always this stylistic tension in Chicago

and I know a lot of it was fueled by the fact that like and I know I'm super guilty of this and I had to really check myself when I moved here in my scene I came up in which was the you know book reading punchline you know four elements you know breakdancing DJ graffiti style in the south side of

Chicago we look down on chopping right look down on double timing you know what I'm saying like we We was condescending about it. We thought that was some stupid shit. Like, you know what I'm saying? But I think what we were really commenting on or trying to comment on was the fact that, like, a lot of them was saying the same kind of shit. Or not saying anything necessarily.

Exactly. Exactly. But, like, there's no denying it's hard to do. There's no denying. It's impressive. There's no denying the energy that comes from it. You know what I'm saying? I used to battlecast, like, especially when I was in college, like, I used to kill people in battles because I was the punchline king.

Right. size you up real quick and think of six good ones and end you. Right. But if somebody was coming back, how but da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Like, they'd have the crowd going. I'd be like, fuck. You know what I'm saying? It ain't nothing I can do.

I hated that shit. You know what I'm saying? But it wasn't really until I moved to L.A. And saw the chopping lineage of L.A. And saw how like, oh, they look at styling artistically. So, like, there's never a style that's more valued than another style. It's really about, like, like, like how many styles can you master?

I was like, oh, okay, I was thinking about this wrong, you know? But then on top of that, a lot of the L.A., like, blowd dudes, and it's crazy because there's certain rap styles that you literally have to go deep in the hoods of Los Angeles to ever hear. They don't exist anywhere else in the world. But they're very commonplace out here, you know what I mean? It's kind of interesting, especially back then in the 90s or the 2000s. Oh, yeah. It's changed a little bit now.

Oh, yeah. It was a petri dish. Yeah, yeah, there's so much. But these dudes, they were flipping those cadences, but compacting them so much with polysyllabic rhyme schemes, with punchlines, with wordplay, with metaphor. And with like knowledge. With knowledge.

You know what I'm saying? Even if they didn't always, even always know what they was talking about. Yeah. They was reading books and putting that in these double time chop styles. And some of them was doing hood shit too. But like, you know, I think that's what, really opened me up to it when I saw, oh, it's really, that's just another tool. You know what I'm saying?

And you can be expressing whatever you want to express. But, like, that's a different tool. And it's not like any one of these tools is better than any other. And, like, I really got impressed and intimidated by how intricate the chop is. Right. You know what I'm saying? And how, like, there's so many different styles of it. Like, you know, Gaja, who just passed away this shit.

RIP in the home, rest of peace. Like, his shit was so precise. like just swinging blaze. Like, Coos chop is always a little sloppy. Right. You know what I'm saying? But that's part of the energy of it. It's like his whole shit.

It's got swing to it. Yeah. And it's like every time you hear him rhyming, even if it's in the studio, it sounds like a live show. Like, you know what I'm saying? Where it's like his energy is pushing himself sometimes ahead of the beat behind the beat. You know what I'm saying? And then you get his son, you know what I'm saying?

Who's pushing ahead of the beat too? Right. It's so fascinating when you start digging in and understanding the math. and the feeling and how all of it comes together to make this magic, you know? 1,000% and also, you know, like if you really analyze a lot of, just for example,

Twister, he was very, he wasn't just saying a bunch of bullshit up there. Like, he was... A lot of polysyllabic. Yeah, exactly. Fidual lives and critical lives, individual died. Buddy, like, buddy love, but still wouldn't leave a bloody glove. Like, what? Yeah. He was crazy with it.

Yeah. He was crazy with it, man. Still is, you know what I'm saying? No, 1,000. Now, growing up in Chicago, and I know, like, you grew up near the projects and all that, was it kind of weird after you left and moved to L.A. just to see, like, the whole emergence of the drill music scene. Like, I don't, I haven't really seen you talk about that too much before.

You know, because a lot of that happened after I left. No, yeah, absolutely. And I think, like, I had to, it wasn't even just the emergence of the drill scene that baffled me, even the emergence of like chance in him. Right. Like, you know, chance and shout out to Sabah and shout out to no name. I feel like Lou Bay blew up right after you left, damn me,

because you say 2004 you moved to L.A. Yeah, yeah, exactly, because that's when he's on, what is it, graduation? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Touched the sky and all that. Exactly. I'm like, oh, who was this dude, right? Because that wasn't from any scene I recognized,

but my scene was very underground, Seifer like that scene. And it wasn't a bunch of people coming up out of there. So that was the scene that I was still connected to. So all the rest of the stuff going on in the city, I wasn't really aware of at all. And I was out here seeing stuff bubble up. I mean, the big thing for me was that, like, the fact that Chicago was starting to have rap stars at all. Yeah.

Because my entire growing up coming of age in Chicago, everybody knew, if you want to get on as a rapper, you had to leave. Right. You had to leave. You had to go to L.A. You had to go to New York. You had to go find where there was music business because there was no music business. Like the first thing I ended up hearing about

was chocolate industry. So that was like the cool kids. Yep. And I was like, oh, snap. That was a whole wave too. So Chicago's got some music business now. That's crazy. And then once there started to be a little bit of a business foothold,

then Chicago started to be one of them places is where the people started supporting their own a little bit more. Which is crazy how influential. Like, even like the, I feel like the cool kids literally changed music. Oh, my God. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

The beats, like, yeah, absolutely. The aesthetic, the beats, just the energy. All of it. They set that off way before L.A. did, you know what I mean? And to the same degree, like Kanye and Lupe and these, you know, chance. These are such, like, seminal, influential acts. And then I'll say the same thing about you. But see, and that's where I was getting to.

So my understanding of drill starts with Chief Keefe, and it starts with me seeing videos of Chief Keefe fans reacting to his music, reacting to when he dropped something. And like seeing how connected people was feeling to this music he was putting out, then I would listen to him and be like, oh, I don't necessarily get it off top. This is dark. Yeah, it's dark. I do feel the energy, but it's like, damn, this is really affecting people. And then I started to understand what was happening in Englewood in Chicago War

and how just of a chaotic kind of like life it was becoming to live there. And then I started to understand because this again, after I left and I grew up by the projects, then just to understand what happened after the projects got knocked down. And because then projects, as crazy as it could be to live there, be around them, there were these closed ecosystems. Right. Where like, yeah, it was gangbanger, but it was all very like regimented sectioned off, understood.

It was this building. It was that building. It was this. You know, unless it was for a very particular reason. Right. So when they knocked in buildings down, they put people anywhere, anywhere. Like the Cabrini's and all that and Robert Taylor. Robert Taylor's got prairie courts.

Like all, like there was no thought to if you were. putting people from different gangs by each other. There was no thought to the chaos that was going to unleash around the city. And I think Englewood ended up being the place that like caught all that hell. You know what I'm saying? And so like the reality that comes when suddenly your neighborhood is filled with people who set wise fucking hate each other. Another thing I'm to understand from that, not being there, but just from understanding people telling me about it. A lot of the captains, a lot of the older heads was dead and locked up around that time too.

So the young cats that didn't know nothing but they set and nothing but getting money and nothing but protecting their turf and launching off at enemies, they are just in the streets. No guidance. No guidance. Doing whatever. And I think a lot of that contributes to that Englewood environment. And, you know, when I started to understand that, it made me understand true. You know, even if it's not like the music I go to, it made me understand it. Did it was it kind of, I could understand it being a lot of mixed emotions from, okay,

there's a lot of young dudes from my neighborhood that are now able to move their families out the hood, making a lot of money rising to prominence giving a lot of hope to other young people that hey you could overcome these circumstances and rise above and it's kind of like okay this is showing them a template but at the same time

it's perpetuating a lot of negativity and there's we see the murder rate skyrocketing and it's kind of just putting this putting on blast what's kind of because Chicago has always been a rough place right but I think I think it did

it spiked. I really think it had so much to do with them projects. Like even if just the Robert Taylor's man, it was 30,000 people living in their buildings. That's fucking crazy. 30,000. Yeah. It was like 16 buildings with like 15 floors each. You know what I'm saying? Like they put them people everywhere. There's there's like 20% of people that they had registered that they don't even know what happened to them. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like right. I really think that That changing of the cities, you know, the poverty elements of the city, I really think that had an effect on, like, you know, stuff like the murder rate, stuff like the crime rate, you know. Do you feel like drill music perpetuated that as well?

I know it's a lofty question. I mean, I think that every style of music perpetuates the lifestyle of the people that made it to some degree, right? And rap has always been a kind of music where you, usually you kind of talk about. talk about what's going on around you. So, like, I don't, I don't put that more on them than I put it on any other genre. You know what I'm saying? Just what rap is, is you kind of report on the world outside your window.

So, like, why would I expect drill to do anything but that, you know? Do I think it's bleak? Hell yeah, I think it's bleak. And I wish things weren't like that, but I don't think that the, I don't think that the music is the problem. I think the music is a symptom. Right. You know what I'm saying?

And if shit got better, I bet maybe that music wouldn't resonate with people so much. And I always felt that that's, you know, the quintessential argument about gangster rap and what was going on in L.A. is this kind of perpetuating it or is this just, are these the street reporters kind of being a reflection of their environments? And so you coming from out there, moving to L.A., these are the two most gangster cities in the country. You know what I mean? I mean, not to say that there's nothing. I mean, because I'm just thinking, damn, what Houston got to say about that? Right, I mean, obviously, yeah, there's Memphis, there's Baltimore, there's Detroit.

But I mean, like, they're kind of, the reason why I say that is they're kind of like the two original strains of the type of gang-danging. And of the big gangs, the bloods, the crips, the GDs, and folks, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, all that shit being in Chicago, and then was it kind of, was that an interesting transition? Like, okay, you come from a place where there's all these gang-banging politics and you have to watch how you wear your hat and all that, you know what I mean? And then you come to L.A. where at that time, there's still really active color banging. Now it's more about what kind of hat you're wearing or other things that... I mean, I think growing up in the hoods I grew up in in Chicago, prepare me to live in any hood. You know what I'm saying?

Like, I feel like it's... And I usually... Because I'm really comfortable in hoods, so, like, I tend to, like, especially if I move to a place, that's where I want to live. I want to live, like, with my folks. You know what I'm saying? And that's typically, like, in the hood. And I feel like it's mostly the same, man. I feel like it's mostly the same.

I feel like really the main rule is at least what I've seen in the last 30 years, because it might not have been like this before, is that for the most part, if you not trying to be in that shit, they're not really fucking with you. Right. You know what I'm saying? I think there might have been a time in like the early 90s, mid-90s, when it was more just open warfare. And as soon as you set foot on the block, it was on.

You get impressed. Yeah, like, even if you ain't from somewhere, you got to claim you from somewhere or else, like you were neutron and that's not even good, you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like, for the most part, if you ain't about that, you're right. And if you're trying to be about that, it'll come to your door. Right.

You know what I'm saying? Like, most, I feel like it's mostly chill now. It's mostly families. It's mostly people trying to live their life from day. today and yep she knows shit happens and people get caught up in it but you know i feel like the politics now are only important if you're trying to play the politics you know what i'm saying do you feel like you being because you know obviously you have a rap style that's very different from what a lot of these kids are listening to however you're not pretentious at all

you're able to meet people on their level you're super down to earth you could interact with pretty much anybody. And that's not just these, you know, collegiate, you know, super brainy people. You're able to chill with... Yeah, man. I live in Englewood, man. Right. Right. Right. Do you feel like that's kind of a... Do you try... Do you feel like the people that need a lot of the messages you have to kick, sometimes it's often lost on them?

100%. I had a song, a line in one of my old songs. You know, I'm trying to reach black. black people in a room full of whites. You know what I'm saying? Like that is my existence, man. You know, I feel like, and more and more, like, there are more people of color coming to my shows,

which is great. But I feel like the main problem is culturally, the way a lot of my people receive music is through the biggest channels. You know, it's through radio. It used to be through music. music videos. Like, now it's through, like, you know, the marketing channels that...

Through the no jumpers. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say even more like the cosine system, which is completely major label dominated. You know what I'm saying? Like, and that's the way that my people hear stuff. And I can't, like, all I can do is make my music and put it out the way I know how to do

it and when I have resources, I try to get more attention on stuff. But it's still like my biggest, the biggest way I reach people is through music writers. You know what I'm saying? And it ain't a bunch of fucking black people checking out pitchforks new releases. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like it's some, but that's not like culturally, that's not the dominating way we hear stuff. And if it is like, if it is black folks, it might not necessarily be the ones that are in the

trenches like that, you know what I mean? And so like, you know, I. That's really another thing that I miss about not having a weekly project blow. And even though, like, everybody there wasn't super hood, it's in the hood. And you'd get people to come and check it out. And even if, you know, even if the style of music that we doing isn't changing their life, they just see options. You know what I'm saying? Like, to me, like, because I used to, like, every job I had before I started doing music full-time.

I was working with young kids in bad situations to some degree. You know what I'm saying? And the one thing I learned coming out of all of them jobs, like working in halfway houses, working in schools and hoods, like, you know, I taught special ed for a minute. Like, the most important thing you can do in that environment is role model different behavior that they haven't seen.

That's the most important. Like, you can tell them what to do until you blew in the face. what they actually pay attention to is what you do. Right. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. If one of the kids say something crazy to you,

do you fly off the handle? Do you speak to them with patience? Do you try to follow whatever behavioral program you all have? Do you take it personal? Do you get emotional? Like, that's what they're paying attention to. And if you are in there like being yourself and offering them options,

that's the most valuable thing that you could do. Wow. And it's crazy because, Because I remember around the time that I first was coming around you and meeting you and stuff, I thought you actually dressed the way that you were showing up. But, like, no, you were like coming straight from teaching gigs and shit. Yeah. So you had, like, you weren't.

Button up on maybe? Yeah, you weren't dressed like a rapper. I thought you were making a fashion statement because it wasn't even like that. I mean, well, one thing I didn't know how to dress. That's one thing. Like, I had, you know, I had a little journey with that. And then the other thing is, yeah, I used to have to try to wear stuff. that could work in the classroom or in whatever, you know, job I was working in and also, you know, kind of work on stage maybe, you know what I'm saying?

Absolutely. I didn't have time to go change and shit, you know. No, it's just really interesting to see. And like, I know you said you don't have much time today, so I don't want to keep you for too long, but a few other things I wanted to touch on. First and foremost, you know, you, coming from that project bloat scene, coming from the scene, that. we came from. There's been some examples of people that really made it, impacted on like a superstar level,

and transcended in a lot of different ways, you know. And I'm talking about like Anderson Pack. Yes. I'm talking about Flying Lotus. I'm talking about Doja Cat. You know, I think a lot of people don't really. You dumbfounded, All-City Jim, I don't think people realize that there's a central kind of scene

that it all came from. Yeah. They don't. and y'all really each and every one of y'all in different ways are really like a perfect representation of coming from that environment yeah it's a weird place man and all styles were welcome and all styles were supported as long as it was dope and true you know what I'm saying and I think that's reflected in and in all these different styles and then like I think the thing that's really unifying is that everybody is really good at what they do. Yeah. Like, that's the thing. That's the one thing,

the blow that whole scene wouldn't let you be is whack. Please pass the mic. Yeah, it wouldn't let you be, like, you know, and you keep coming back until you figure your shit out. And then once you figure it out, you're good. Once you can hold your owner in that cipher, you're good, you know what I'm saying?

But, like, that's... And they want you to be yourself. They definitely... Whether you're a pigeon John or a two-mex or, you know what I mean? Like, you know, bus driver? uptitle, like, yeah, exactly. Like, be weird, do you?

Like, ain't nobody, you know what I'm saying? Like, the only thing anybody was concerned with was whether or not you could rap. You know what I'm saying? That's the only thing anybody ever gave a shit about is whether or not you could rap. And you can flip whatever style you want. Whatever style. One of the themes that you had actually a whole album about it a couple of years ago, you were very vulnerable in a lot of your music.

I mean, all your music, you were talking about divorce. Yeah. and which resonates with me because I got a divorce a few years back and followed that up with a lengthy relationship, which unfortunately deteriorated some months back and I've been kind of having a difficult time coming to terms with how therapeutic was, you know, you channeling that energy into your music and being so...

Man. But naked about it all. You know, it's so funny, man, because I just put out an album, it's like a complete antithesis of that. Right. Because of how hard it was. to make that music and put it out.

Like the whole journey from me even making it was I was going through all that shit and sitting with my therapist and my therapist having to tell me like, yo, when this is a white lady, so she didn't say yo, but she's like, do you know how lucky you are that you have an outlet or you can use words to paint whatever picture you want to paint?

Like my biggest problem as an emotional being, is I have a really hard time processing my feelings. Like, I'll just sit on them. I'll just tuck them away. I'll just, and then they just bubble up. But, like, I have a medium. I have an outlet, and I can use it to help me process what I'm going through. And that was like this revelation for me,

because I never really used my music like that. Like, I could be honest or truthful, but not really, like, vulnerable emotionally in my music. I never did that. And so when I made them songs, them songs helped me so much. Writing them songs, recording them songs, hearing them songs back.

Ah, it helped me so much. But putting them out, that shit was weird, man. Like, that shit was weird. It's like taking a shower in front of the entire world. And then, like, charging people for it? You know what I'm saying? And then, you know, having to promote it. Like, that was really the weirdest part, I think.

You know, social media era, we make some shit you know especially if you indie it's on us to let people know about it as many ways as often as possible and I made that shit and like

you know having to promote singles promote articles written about it promote we didn't it wasn't no tour days but I did a release party and like all of this shit we're like you got to have a certain amount of distance

from this work, I feel like to keep being okay with pushing it out like a product, because this didn't feel like a product to me. It felt a little too close to being an actual essence of who I am and what I was going through. So I felt so weird, hey, buy this shit. Right. You know what I'm saying? Hey, there's a limited edition records.

Come get them. Like, it's because it wasn't, it wasn't that kind of project. You know, I'm reading reviews. cross-eyed mad. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I put out albums. That was like my sixth album.

Like I'd been through that shit. Like I already have the distance from that. Right. It's not fucking with my world. By the time you're mixing and mastering and all that shit. Yeah. And like so, but for that album, like if somebody had something to say about it, it didn't feel like they were saying something about a product.

It felt like they were saying something about me. And I couldn't deal with that shit. Like, well, it's always difficult to remove yourself from your art in that regard. But I'm curious, like, if that was how it was received by your ex I mean I had to talk her through it like on the way before it was done

you know while we were making it we were like going through couples therapy you know what I'm saying while making this stuff like I had to make a couple of decisions very early on like I'm not going to tell the story of what happened here

Right. I'm just going to be talking about my feelings about things. And I think that kind of gave me the room where I didn't have to worry about like dragging her through the mud or, you know what I'm saying. Not that there's even even to drag her through the mud. No, it could be perceived that way. Right. The perception of it.

Because you're, you know, you're ultimately, we're only hearing one side of the story. Exactly. And even if there's records where you're putting yourself in her position, it's still your interpretation of that. And I'm already the public figure in relationship. So like it's all weighted. different anyway you know what I'm saying so I had to have a lot of conversations with her about yeah it's called this yeah I'm not saying nothing personal and it yeah I can send it to you ahead of time if you want you know I'm saying like all of that shit because yeah her comfort with it was

very important to me too because I didn't want it to be like I didn't want people looking at her weird based on nothing I said yeah you know what I'm saying well and I think obviously she was with you so she knows this is how you channel your creativity and she obviously you know at least had some level of appreciate. Yeah, you know what I mean? Of how you got down. So you say your newest project is the polar opposite. Yeah, man, I put my armor all the way back on.

You know what I'm saying? And I'm just rhyming and having fun and, you know, trying to just make the music that, make the kind of music, like spiritually the kind of music that really always made me love hip-hop. And that was never really nobody telling all their business. never really the thing for me. It was people being very creative and making songs that had impact, the beats that had impact.

Some native tongues type. Yeah, native tongues shit. Like, you know, Diamond D, who I have some, I had some beats from him on the album. Lord Finesse is literally like one of my heroes. You know what I'm saying? But like that shit, like literally digging in the crazed punchline rap, like Big L, AG, like that shit is incredibly important to me. And I felt like I got into a place where if you listen to my music, you wouldn't even know

that. So I really wanted to turn all that around. I really wanted to focus on my influences in that way and kind of like big up all of the music that I love, the rappers that I love, the producers that I love. And it's a much more enjoyable process than, you know what I'm saying? To be talking about my feelings and shit. I'd like to hazard a guess and say you're still being more vulnerable

than you even realize just by proxy because of just the nature of how honest you are as an artist. So it's probably still, you know. And you're absolutely right. And I think that's something I might have lost side of, too, Like, just the fact of me being the person writing the punchline means it's going to be a little more, it's going to come from a different angle than, you know what I'm saying, Drake writing a punchline. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's going to have a little more, it's going to be a more, a more personal statement because it's me making it. And those are my values.

Even though you're still approaching it from like a superhuman, like superhero MC level. Trying to and trying to understand that I, like, that the craft. of rapping is that important to me. You know what I'm saying? Really wanting people to know that. Like, no, I do this. Like, I'll rap in your face on the street for hours. And I want you to hear a little bit of that in this music.

Sounds awesome. And I'm, you know, I'm a huge fan of your music. I appreciate you. I'm very grateful to be the homie of you as well. Now, you do so much other stuff outside of rapping from your podcasting, which is going crazy, to your comedy, to just, intellectual workshops and all that. Like, what's the focus looking like for, you know, going into 2023?

Man. Is it difficult to find that balance between all your pursuits? I tell you this. In the past, it hasn't been, because typically I'll make some music and then I'll, like, try to do some other shit to try to, like, keep myself in balance that way. Like, I got a pretty big TV thing coming up that I can't really get into detail of. Let's go. It's pretty dope.

And hopefully I'll be able to make an announcement about that in January. But, like, uniquely coming off of this album, damn, I want to make some more music like right now. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So it's like one of the few times where I'm like, fuck, okay, I got to figure out how I'm going to do both of these because, like, career-wise, financially, like, you know what I'm saying?

The TV shit is always like, it's knocking everything else out of the box. Yeah. But, like, the spiritual place, the emotional place, the emotional place that I got into making this last album and seeing how I got received and makes me want to lean into that more it's like oh I gotta make sure

this room for both of these you know what I'm saying I was having a conversation with our brother satire about the same thing the other day and just kind of finding a balance between the different pursuits but at the end of the day you're a creative entity

and you just I gotta be to eat and you eat and you're eating seven courses in this motherfucker doing a right man I can do better And I'm trying to do better. You know what I'm saying? Well, hopefully this is introducing a different audience for...

And I appreciate you having because of that. I encourage all y'all, you know, that might not be familiar with... I know a lot of y'all are, but those of you that aren't look into this guy, you won't be disappointed. Maybe you heard something 10 years ago. I'd say definitely dip back into the last couple of projects and see if it's something on there that strikes you fancy. With that being said, any final thoughts? I'm happy that y'all have the space, man, these type of discussions. Like you said, as a podcaster, man, I just know how valuable...

level it is to have artists, you know, for them to have the capability to tell their own story and write their own narrative, man. So I really appreciate you, you know what I'm saying, you're having this and you're having me on, man. Anytime. Like, there's so many different directions we could have gone with this conversation. Yeah, we're going to have to do a part two and all that. And check out, uh, open mics podcast. What had happened was, I believe, is what it's called, which is fire. I appreciate that. And he dealt really deep into a lot of cool topics with some of the most interesting people in the culture and beyond. So, So with that being said, play a partner Laszuno, OME,

and we about this BR, y'all.