No Jumper - Spek & Ichabod on Painting Freights, Felony Charges for Graffiti, Snitching & More

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

Spek talk to Adam about his rise, the art, the graffiti lifestyle, doing time, getting raided, and more! ----- 00:00 Intro 0:05 Adam on knowing Spek for 22 years and seeing his graffiti on a trainyard throughout New Hampshire 4:04 Spek on how he got started into graffiti at a really young age 5:15 Spek on trolling Adam into thinking he was in a local hardcore band when first meeting 7:45 Spek talks about getting arrested bombing freights and subway trains and how he would rack up on paint from Home Depot 14:50 Adam talks about the times he went racking up spray paint from mom and pop art shops 15:30 Adam asks Spek about the magazine era of graffiti being the best way to get your art seen 17:00 Adam asks if the internet is good or bad for graffiti and how it's a double edged sword 20:50 Ichabod talks about anti-graffiti (graffiti done bad on purpose) and Banksy's style of graffiti getting a lot of hate 22:00 Adam asks what is the difference between graffiti vs. street art, and painting on a wall vs. a train 24:00 Spek on getting arrested and investigated and another writer possibly snitching on him 27:40 Spek talks about his house getting raided while he was at work, cops showing up to his work, and turning himself in then getting 6 months 29:50 Adam asks Spek how it was doing time and not being able to get a job with a felony charge 32:10 Spek talks about him and Adam tagging the snowy woods and getting away from the cops 33:50 Spek on getting back to doing graffiti since his arrest and having the urge to paint on his last week on parole 34:50 Spek's process on getting back into graffiti and if he wanted to change his name 36:00 Adam asks how it feels to do graffiti as you get older and tracking every train they've ever bombed 42:30 Adam asks how it feels running into locals in new spots and how to communicate to people that they are writers 44:40 Ichabod on how it feels to do legal walls and hired jobs since getting to an older age 45:50 Adam asks what is the legacy you leave behind as a graffiti writer once you get old 47:15 Perspective changes on graffiti since getting older, like bombing a church or a mom and pop store 49:20 Adam asks Spek and Ichabod how they like California graffiti and how C*VID brought a lot of graffiti writers back to life 51:45 Adam asks if there is an end goal to graffiti, and doing graffiti until they’re 80 54:30 YouTubers having walls in their backyards and painting on that to not get caught ----- NO JUMPER PATREON http://www.patreon.com/nojumper CHECK OUT OUR NEW SPOTIFY PLAYLIST https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5te... FOLLOW US ON SNAPCHAT FOR THE LATEST NEWS & UPDATES https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... CHECK OUT OUR ONLINE STORE!!! http://www.nojumper.com/ SUBSCRIBE for new interviews (and more) weekly: http://bit.ly/nastymondayz  Follow us on SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4ENxb4B... iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/n... Follow us on Social Media: https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... http://www.twitter.com/nojumper http://www.instagram.com/nojumper https://www.facebook.com/NOJUMPEROFFI... http://www.reddit.com/r/nojumper JOIN THE DISCORD: https://discord.gg/Q3XPfBm Follow Adam22: https://www.tiktok.com/@adam22 http://www.twitter.com/adam22 http://www.instagram.com/adam22 adam22hoe on Snapchat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No Jumper, coolest podcast in the world. And today, I'm diving deep into the recesses of Boston, graffiti, lore. I met this dude to my left. Speck. So you're right, I guess. 23 years ago, I was trying to do the math, 24 years ago. Was it 01 or is it? I thought it was like 2000.

But it might be 2001. You might be right. Yeah, so 22 years ago. pretty crazy because I had no idea who I was meeting at the time. But basically, like, I was on the 12-ounce profit forum, and I think I met your boy, Aves. Yeah. He's the dude that I actually, like, got in contact with because I was, like, a 16-year-old kid just posting photos from the train yard in my town, which we had a fucking amazing train yard

in Nashville, New Hampshire, which I'm sure is probably still pretty good. If you get arrested there, it's not my fault. But I was posting about it and probably being a little too forthcoming. I was like a 16-year-old graffiti kid just being like, yo, I got the sickest yard. We went there today. We painted for eight hours. We didn't see anybody.

And so Aves kind of like reaches out and is like, yo, like, you should show us. And so I go to the mall, Newberry Comics, I believe, of the Fesolet Mall. And it's definitely my first time meeting up with, like, dudes who are well into their 20s, maybe even 30. Yeah. Yep.

And it's Aves, by the way. Aves. Aves. Okay. Well, I've been saying it wrong for 20 years. That's all right. My bad. But yeah, like I had, so we went, I remember going to the Home Depot, and they were racked in front of me, which I was unbelievably impressed by, even though I was doing the same thing, but they were a little smoother with it.

And then, uh, going to the train yard. I don't think I'd ever seen somebody crack a 40 in front of me at like 15 or 16. And I also don't know that, I believe a, may have been smoked, which I don't think I had ever seen anyone do in real life at 15 at that point. and it might have been the first time or it might have been another time after that that you came through and we and we met yeah and with your boy coda yes that's awesome that you remember that yes your your brain is very organized when it comes to oh yeah i remember that too i remember coda and own we're up for a hot minute that's crazy i can't believe anybody would ever I can, because I still have like a few photos laying around.

Yeah. We were so into it, even though my skills were definitely lacking at that time. Yeah. But we were going for it. We still are. Dude, you were hard as fuck, though. Like, I remember seeing, and this is like the most out of, out of order interview ever, but I remember, like, you doing a piece and I think, or starting one that was like,

I think you would just put SP sometimes. You just shorten it. Maybe at the time. Or it might have been the full spec thing, but you, got frustrated part way through and you ended up just like filling it in because you didn't like the way it looked you kind of just like use like a darker color over the whole thing and then like wrote like a few lyrics on top of it or something probably that sounds about right i was like wow that's the cool ever because i was so young that i'm thinking like no every can like i need to use

it like i can't just give up yeah he did that on a train one time yeah this was a train this was that the train yard yeah it was it was it was a there was a green bn at willies yep and you you just having a bad day and like you hated your piece and you took the actual green, the same buff, the buff color of the car, and just buffed your whole thing and went home. Oh, Bob did say you couldn't even see it at all. That must have been a weird time in my career, yeah.

That was 01 or 02 because Willis didn't last much longer. Okay, and so you got to introduce our skeleton-faced friend here. This is Iqabad. Right. YMAT crew. And you guys have been friends since, for how long? since 2000 yeah okay and you were you were living in Boston at the time yep are you still like you guys both still there out there mass yep okay mass in general right so all right

before we'll we'll get to the whole part where we eventually met each other but when so take me through like your your early life and how you got fascinated by graffiti because this is we're really talking to some lifers here and people who put in ridiculous amounts of time into the true um basically in high school middle school high school I would scribble all over the desks and all that and we I'd end up going to the city and just noticing all the graph on the walls and I was like I want to I want to get down with that and basically going to hardcore shows stuff like that run into people and then start painting Yeah, how much of overlap was there between graffiti and hardcore?

Because I feel like it's pretty significant now. I didn't necessarily know about that, but I think there's a lot of scenes where that's pretty common, right? Yeah, in Boston for sure it was. And then I was hooked. What bands were you going to see when you first started going on hardcore shows? It was like Blood for Blood and Downset, which is native to here. Right. That's sick.

Yeah, I interviewed White Trash, Roll. Rob in his attic in Salem Mass. No way. Yeah, four or five years ago. It was pretty thrilling. But okay, so were you interested in art before that, though? Or did you know that you had some talent? Totally.

Yeah, I would sketch all day and just took it from there, really. You didn't want to be in a band or anything, though? You just gravitated right to the graffiti shit? Yeah. But I might have told you that I was in the band, the anniversary. Which, like, when you told me that, and I'm like 16, because at the time, the emo wave in BMX videos at the time was fucking huge. Like, get-up kids, anniversary. Like, I probably knew, like, four or five anniversary songs from BMX videos before I even bought an album, you know?

Yeah. And so when you told me that, my fucking jaw dropped because I don't think I had ever met anybody who was in, like, one of these bands that I was listening to the, you know, I'd only knew, like, the local ska band and shit like that. So you told me that I couldn't believe it. But how did you join that band? I didn't. Oh. I lied. But our good friend...

Just to throw me off the scent. Or not intentionally deceiving me? I do it all the time in the city of parties. Like, just talk shit. Really? But our good friend, which you probably know, too, was actually in that. Really? Yes.

I never actually, like, looked through the members or anything or did anything to confirm that. I'm glad I don't think I've ever mentioned you being in that band on this podcast because I would hate to have that on the record. Right. But it was, you know, the writer, pure. I've seen that, yeah. Yeah, he was the guy. Okay. Which, when we were painting that yard, he was there with us with Cam.

Right. Okay, yeah, yeah. Wow. So were you always a bit of a troll, or was it like you kind of intentionally wanted to deceive people so they wouldn't be able to get an idea of who you were? I guess so. I don't even know. I think I was just fucking around. Right. Yeah. Interesting. So how did you go about actually getting into graffiti? What were you painting on early on? It was just walls in my hometown. And in 99, I met this dude Arison. Who I also met when I first linked up with you guys. Yeah. And he introduced me to trains.

And then from there, it was all trains. you guys hitting the the subways in boston or were you just uh that's that's later on okay but we we did and that's how it went downhill for me and i did six months but that was for the subways okay was that later on though when you had this arrest that's all when you google you oh so there's oh seven because you got caught again like or no like oh seven yeah that was it yep so okay you've been paying freights and shit for a long time rates and then And yeah, the subways was like 04. And it was just, and the city as well.

So it was like city, subways, freight. But they came after me for the subways. Just because it's so much more attention getting at this point? Yeah. And actually this year is the 20 years, we did a 20 years ago, we did a whole car on the red line. and the blue line actually two. So. How long was that stuff running for when you would do it?

On the subways? No, they'd buff it right away. Next day, but you would get photos usually? Yes. But that's not true because on the commuter rails, they would let them run sometimes for two months. Really? On the commuters.

And so was that just incredibly fulfilling when you would get one that would last that long? I'd ride it, take it out all the way out the city. Damn. Yeah. That's crazy. But so you didn't get caught for a long time. Like how long did you actually go before you got caught? So 99 to, I had little arrests here and there, but they never caught me for my name.

But so 99, that's when you started. So when I met you, you had only been doing it for a couple of years? No, so 95, basically. And then, like, I started getting in trouble. more so like i'd say oh five or four or five what would you blame that for you're just going way harder being reckless like drinking at bars and that'll get you just painting yeah yeah taking a can to the to the to the bar zone and like just catching a few hands while bar hopping is how a lot of people go down that's i have a lot of friends who do that and it's very very worrisome as the person who's

not doing graffiti and just like seeing them do that yeah so it's good and bad because you can get up really well casually you're blending in you're loose yeah it's like a car crash when you're drunk you're more likely to survive yeah maybe but uh so you just started kind of fucking around like that and like i don't know what what would you say was driving you at that point though like was it just seeing other other people's shit it and just wanted to replicate it, outdo it. It's definitely competitive. Were you stealing most of your supplies at that time? Back then, yes. Now, not so much, but I'm still loving it, still having a good time.

Right. But in terms of the stealing cans, how would you go about it back in the day? And what were your most prolific sources? A. C. Moore? Yeah. Hand carts, hand baskets. Just walk right out the door. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, the security was pretty astonishingly low at that point in time. It's almost hard for me to imagine. I wonder if it's still like that. I don't really know. Also, the minimum wage was on the low side. So, like, the people who were charged, the people who were supposed to, like, say, hey, what are you doing? We're just, like, I don't get paid enough or whatever. Yeah.

I remember, like, they had these black balls in the ceiling that everybody was scared of, and I knew, like, one kid who worked there told me that they were speakers and that they weren't cameras or anything. Just fakes. Yeah. And then, so after that, it was really on. Like, I was, I mean, even in the local, like, Home Depot at that time, there was no cameras. And I remember a few years later, them putting cameras in and being like, oh, okay, so that's

kind of the end of an era. Yeah, the winter, you just jock the cans in your jacket right in here. how many you think is the most you ever gotten one trip would you like fill up the shopping card or was it always on your body i've never done a shopping cart just a hand baskets right yeah what do you think you got like 15 12 or something 20 maybe 20 on your body no no in the basket probably like six that's pretty impressive six yeah what about yeah you got any tails i wasn't Much into racking. When the self-checkout came into being,

I may have inadvertently made a few errors here and there on how many things I was buying, but, you know, mostly I would hunt around for, like, deals. I used to go around to, most of the mom and pop hardware stores are gone now, but back when they were a thing before they all got corporate and became chains. Right.

You know, the old places with the hard, the wood floors, and the narrow aisles and the dust on the products and stuff. The ones that we should have felt bad about ripping off. Yeah, exactly. I would go and I wouldn't even rack them. I'd just walk in and be like, I notice you're not selling this paint.

You know, like it's gathering dust. Right. If you want to, you know, mark these down, I'll buy the whole shelf, you know, like. And for some reason, a whole bunch of store owners were more than happy. They're like, how about a dollar a can? I'm like, all right, give me a box. Wow. And so I pulled that at a lot of places.

I just kind of nickel and dimes. I didn't I didn't I never like pushed a card or like tried any any big stuff but there's gonna be writers out there who have looked into getting like wholesaler account so they could just buy it we did that too you did really yep and that worked out how much you're getting cans for at a certain point um we got a few pallets that were you know like with shipping like a dollar a can wow like good rustolium so uh that's crazy it's worth doing but um yeah we we eventually worked their way up to that angle too so. Damn. I kept it. I estimate I've looked at my receipts for like basically my whole painting career since like 2000. And I think I've saved about half.

I've spent only half of what I should have spent. Really? Off of like full retail. Wow. What are your like current methods for getting it inexpensive? I kind of don't even want to say because I'm still still working them a little bit. And, you know, it's no major crimes, just a little nickel and dime here and there. That makes sense.

And still, still work on the wholesale angle from time to time. Let me ask you this, though. I used to hit Building 19. Remember that? Or is it still around? I don't know. I don't know. Is it?

No, Building 19, well, they don't carry paint anymore. Really? Okay. Another chain, like, took over buying all the spray paint in the, like, New England. But I remember getting pain from there, which was, like, unbelievably easy to steal. And then it would be like the worst quality pain. It was just shit that I hadn't encountered besides that. And it was, I was kind of like, fuck, is this even worth it?

Like, can I really use this for anything? Yeah, never rack off brands. Just get the good stuff. That makes sense. Okay, so would you consider this like the magazine era? Like, when did the magazine era in terms of like how graffiti artists judge themselves or like what was considered the dominant media of the time like it was magazines and and VHS tapes were the primary thing back then yes for sure uh what do you say in the 90s yeah um I remember like

um it was on the go and like some other a couple of others I didn't I didn't um I wasn't that dude like at Tower Records all the time like waiting for stuff to drop I just came across a few things Yeah. But, like, I got some of the 12 ounce profit, the early ones they put out. Yeah, I remember going to Tower Records in Boston and buying, you know, like 20 fucking graffiti magazines, like, in one stop there. And when I think about it now, it is kind of weird to think about, like, Tower Records had relationships with just, like, dozens of different graffiti magazines. Like, it's such a strange concept. And then you think about all the other magazines that they were selling as well, which is kind of crazy to consider.

at this point in time yeah that was on newberry street i think so yeah yeah and even all the tower records are gone pretty much now i think there's like one or two in america left or there's one in japan i seen really pretty sure if i'm lying it's gonna seem stupid as fuck the uh but that's where you'd go to meet writers really at the top of newberry and mass have in the 90s you just knew where they would be hanging out of well where the magazines are sold right you know you feel like the internet has kind of like fun to mentally changed and distorted what you loved about graffiti or do you feel like it just adds to it? I think it's it's both it's a double-edged sword

um it's although a lot of people like to complain about the internet but it's kind it was kind of inevitable you take a culture you take a subculture like we got and you put the you put a new paradigm in place in the society it's it's gonna change so there's a lot of a lot of bad shit happened because of the internet and you know regional styles got dissolved the system of mentoring people in person like back then you had to like meet somebody and like learn like you know what caps go and what cans or how to how to develop a style or something and somebody would like it haze you and then if you had the right attitude they might take you under their wing and and show you a few things sometimes grudgingly sometimes you know

because they like doing it right but now it's like this this kids that are good in like six months because they can look everything up on the internet they just buy it they bite it yeah because i mean even me meeting up with you and those dudes back in uh 2001 was like very improbable it was like probably some of the earlier like online meetups you know there's probably there were like people doing i'm sure people were meeting each other on photo bucket or whatever but it was kind of new like i'm sure 12th profit had only even been out for a couple years at that point In 2001? Yeah, I was on there in like 98.

And to be honest, I didn't even meet my first writer in person. I actually like was talking with somebody on the internet. And we were in the same town. And that was my boy Lern who founded Y Me crew. I think I remember meeting him too. Yeah, we did the little, you know, are you a cop? Are you not a cop dance on there for a couple of messages? and then we agreed to meet up and the rest of that's history.

Yeah, it's crazy because, I mean, when you look at it like a graffiti writer's Instagram, for me as somebody who's like very much outside of it, it's like this is an unbelievably efficient way for me to see what they're up to. You know, you don't even have to click. You can just kind of see from a glance at like what the type of stuff that they're posting is and then you can click and zoom in and like get a better look at it and stuff. But yeah, I had that same feeling because my girl bought me a bunch of markers and spray paint cans one year for my birthday.

And I was kind of like, this is like kind of a fucked up thing for you to do because I'm going to get myself in trouble. If you really like give you this shit, like, she's like, well, you can just do it on like a regular wall or whatever. I'm like, where am I going to find a regular wall? Like either way. But like, so I get curious and I go on YouTube and I start looking up like, you know, how to do graffiti and shit and start just watching random fucking videos. And I'm like, if I had these videos when I was 16, I would have been able to get so much better, so much faster. And now I lack the enthusiasm to actually probably go through with it. But yeah, it's unbelievable how fast.

And when you're watching somebody wearing a fucking GoPro doing the exact thing that essentially that you want to be doing and you can see exactly what it's going to look like through your eyeballs while you're doing it, it's hard to imagine sticking with it if you couldn't figure that out. Like, it's just so efficient. Yeah. The price of that, though, is something like it can get generic. Yeah. So a lot of people are all rocking the same style or the same non-style or lately the same anti-style, which I'm not too down with. Describe that for me.

I use the term anti-style. Some people call it hipster graffiti, but it's basically stuff that's bad on purpose. Like it looks like a kindergartner did it, even though the people who are doing it may actually know how to paint. they like make it look ugly on purpose and they get but they get up in good places with it yeah sometimes but i'm just like uh get a get a real style would you say that you would you say you universally hate uh like street art or is it just there's a lot of it that's whack actually no i don't not not universally i'll judge everything i judge art i judge graffiti on like uh the visual like i'll look at it and

be like oh that's actually cool even if the even if the you know even it was like a stencil always something like I don't hate on Banksy a lot of a lot of graffiti writers hate on Banksy because he used stencils or because it was just street art and he didn't do real graffiti which is about writing your name but he did some cool shit as far as I'm concerned yeah I mean graffiti evolving past just writing your name

seems like a pretty natural progression you know and I say that as somebody who generally is like pretty much a traditionalist and I would probably rather look at stuff that's a little bit more old school but I mean it would have been bizarre if we made it to 2023 without that happening. Yeah. But do you think, do you think like, like, I mean, what, what is it that there has to be this

conflict between like traditional graffiti and street art though? Is it just because they occupy the same spaces? Because it feels like it's a very different group of people that would, like most graffiti writers wouldn't gravitate towards that and vice versa. I feel like the street artists are art school kids more so. Yeah. there's an element of that there's an element of um some of the purists in favor of letter forms and traditional graffiti um value like having a set of balls and like going out there and painting your

name and doing like you know in the old days in New York they were like they clowned you if you had only three letters in your name because it didn't take as long you'd be in and out quicker so um with street art like if people are just wheat paste and stuff or just running out there and doing a quick stencil and running away it didn't take them long whereas if you're writing traditional graffiti you have to you have to sketch it you got to fill it you got to outline it you got to add your do-dads um and and you're risking it longer and you're you're risking it harder so there's this there's an element of that i think in the in the um a little bit of like discrimination against street art yeah that makes sense i remember i remember when i first got

started too that i was pretty much almost exclusively painting on trains and then at some point And somebody told me like, you know, trains are way harder to paint on. And I was like, oh, right. This shit is dripping a lot. And I never really thought about the absorption that was going on on a wall that made it a lot easier in general. But do you, like, compare the two. Like, do you feel like trains are that much dramatically difficult? More difficult?

They're difficult, yes. But they travel. And you could see them in any city. So you paint it in Nashua. it could be here. Definitely, yeah. No, it's easy to understand why, because that was like the internet before the internet.

It was like it was going to travel around. People wouldn't have to come to your hometown to see it. It's just like, I don't know. Like if you could compare it, like how much more difficult is painting a train versus painting a wall? The wall like goes all the way to the ground. So like that bottom couple of feet, I sometimes.

Right. When I do a wall, I'm like, oh yeah, I got to put a bottom on this thing. Right. But, um, but no, trains. trains have a lot of stuff sticking out they get ridges they get rivets they get various appurtenances sticking off that you've got to paint and go around so there's a little more of a challenge painting a 3d surface i feel like the walls are just pretty smooth but i feel like the biggest

difference is just the the the the slipperiness of the metal versus like a wall yeah the paint will drip a little faster on the metal but as you become a have can control yeah if you become an expert is that less of a factor like as you get better yeah right over yeah see okay interesting um okay so Let's get closer to the time period where you got caught. So you had been caught multiple times, but they had no reason to suspect that you respect. Right. And they just threw me out. And then I showed up at court.

Yada yada. It was a slap on the wrist. But when they got you in 2007, it was not a slap on the wrist? No. I was sentenced. I was living in Salem at the time. Yeah, right. Because in some of the news articles that specify that the,

there was a lot of your shit in Salem Mass, right? Right, yeah. Wait, so how did they go about catching you? Do they have to put together like a whole investigation? 15 months, yeah. Really? And they were following you or how was it going? I guess.

Honestly, I don't know. They may have had a confidential informant. Ooh. Do you think that? I don't know, maybe. Really? That must be, is that, was it kind of scary though? That it could have been almost anybody you knew?

Well, it was definitely no close friends. Maybe somebody I went over, you know, diss or whatever. I mean, it's easy to imagine. Right. Out here making enemies all the time. One of them could easily decide to just roll over on you. I wouldn't say graffiti has necessarily the same degree of, like, self-policing that there seems to be in hip-hop where snitching is this, like, obsession.

I don't know. I'm sure it would be a big deal in graffiti, but I don't know that people are really talking about it that much. No, it's a big deal. you don't snitch um yeah but but some kids some kids and it might be like you know some kid you met at a party who was jocking you or whatever and you you let on who you you let on your identity to this kid he goes out later and paints and he gets caught red-handed and then the the cops are asking him the question like who's so-and-so do you know so-and-so because we're trying to get this other guy and they offer him a deal or something right if he'll if he'll give up what he knows about us and then

it's like, well. See, but that's what's interesting about that is that the snitching conversation in like hip-hop or street culture or whatever is always about, well, it's not really snitching unless it's somebody that you agreeingly got into a criminal arrangement with essentially, which also extends to your enemies and stuff. Like if your enemies shoot up your house, you're not allowed to snitch on your enemies for shooting your house. That's part of it as well. But it's kind of, in graffiti, it's kind of different because these people aren't really attached to each other anyway. Everybody's kind of like an island and very few people. Well, there's crews and stuff like that, but it feels like it would be harder to police people snitching because

it's just all these like random one-on-one interactions with the cops. Well, it's still a, it's still disrespectful to the culture for sure to be like that. Definitely. So okay, like how did they bust you? How did they arrest you? Uh, so they raided the house and I was at work at the time and I left work and my boss calls and he said all these cops were here and I'm like oh so I bounced out to my boys house for the weekend and your boss had no idea you were a graffiti artist well he did he did he accused me that they were there and all that and uh so my boys took all my photos out of my apartment at the time and hit it and then I had to turn myself in unfortunately wow but then yeah it was wild them getting rid all the photos never came back to bite you no as like destroying evidence or anything like that nope I still have

it all okay but so okay you turn yourself in and then what what goes down how's this work out and then for the next year I'm going to every single courthouse in Massachusetts because you had stuff in every different county and district yeah and so I took a year and then finally they they sentenced me to the six six months and so what was your legal defense or did you I got a lawyer right but but but and were you trying to argue that you weren't spec or was it so obvious at that point that you didn't even think it was that more so yeah because what do you do you hire they have like handwriting experts and shit to prove it's you right or like how are they able to prove that it was well there's a there's the experts are the vandal squad right and they're in

boston at the time they were pretty heavy they knew about everybody so right they try to get you to snitch on people yeah and i did not ever get tough you're in there sweating in the booth? I was just like no comment right so what was that six months like it was easy but coming out was the harder part because you can't get a job with a felony because it's a felony in mass can't get a job so they made it tough you lose your license for a year wow all that and so how did you kind of get around all there how you make it out of that And also, though, I was on a five-year probation.

And, like, you can't fuck up at all in five years. But I don't know. I made it out. I'm here. I got good art jobs from that whole thing. So with the attention of the case kind of, like, got you in a lot of people's minds in terms of hiring you to do shit? Art collectors, yeah. Really?

Damn, so you felt like your work all of a sudden became a lot more prized as a result of the controversy? Absolutely, yeah. Really? He also got a couple of freight panels done while he was in jail because we did a few for him. Oh, really? So what, you guys just, like, emulated his shit exactly? No, I did, like a, I did his name in my style. I did a TikTok on a train.

Would that be disrespectful if he did your name, like, in your style? No. Or is that, that's all fun games? It's all crew. Like, it's all love. So we, we fool around. I remember one time, like, four of us went to a spot and there was one good long box car. We were all like, hey, let's swap names.

Like, you do my name and your style. And it was me learn, lack, and journey. And so we all, so I did like a learn piece in a TikTok and learned it a lack piece in his style. And Journey did my name in a dope style that I liked. and Lack was the only guy who didn't quite grasp the program. He did a perfectly counterfeit journey piece in journey style because he didn't really grasp like the concept. Right.

But it was a good looking train. It was hilarious. Wow, that's funny. Yeah, that, damn. I could see that being pretty dope, yeah. There was one time, though, in the Nashville yard where we got chased out. Yes. Do you remember this?

Yes. And the snow is this deep. And when I tell these stories on this podcast, I almost feel like I'm lying because it sounds so, like, ridiculous that I would be in this situation at like 16. But I'm glad that you can verify that this actually happened. And okay, so my memory is that this was a day in which we were probably in there for like six hours plus. Yeah. And I remember I remember Kemp's doing a whole train, like top to bottom with a fucking ladder. He probably had it 90% done.

He probably like just a few black lines finishing the outline at the very top. and then all of a sudden these fucking SUVs pull up and everybody else is pain too i think you guys had done a bunch of like uh yeah yeah everybody going crazy wasn't it like you rolled eight deep that day there was something we were very comfortable there because we were we were going there for long as periods of time and not getting kicked out or anything and it was kind of like we were probably too comfortable i just remember falling in the snow and all the paint was just like sliding across the ice. It was pretty crazy that we were able to just run through the woods to our cars and get out

of there. Yeah. Like it just seems like if they were smart, they would have been able to get us. I remember, like, jumping into a train and thinking, like, I'm going to hide here. And then I'm, like, hearing all you guys run. And I'm in there for, like, a minute. And I'm just like, I was fucking stupid. I got to get out of here and just run it for my life.

But, yeah, that's crazy. I don't know. It's weird for me to think that I had, like, only so much. many of those types of days, but that you've pretty much been, like, living that kind of shit. To this day, yeah. Ever since, yeah. So, okay, when you get out and you're on probation, did they scare you straight for a period of time? For a period of time, yes.

Right. But I just, I love it too much. So. How long can you honestly say you didn't paint for after the six months? Mm, a couple years. Really? I said, yeah, too. But it was just an itch?

is it like drugs yeah yeah yeah he wanted to go out he had two months two weeks left on five years of probation and he wanted to go out i'm like dude i'm not taking you to the spot today wait two weeks don't don't fuck it up at this this late in the game but that's why i'd be crazy for you because on one hand you want to go pain with him so bad it's been so long and then on the other hand you're a fucking total asshole if you're like really pushing him to do it right it's got to be a weird balance um i i try to go with the the smarter conservative play in that particular situation right but so then once you uh got done with the probation and everything uh how did you have to switch your shit up in order to survive uh what do you mean like like i mean did you have to change your name or no well i started going more towards like the

piecing, like on walls rather than that. And still trains here and there, but I couldn't do subways. I couldn't do bombing in the city, all that. But you kept the same name and just, right? In terms of like, was doing pieces like that, was it equally fulfilling? Now. Now it is. It takes you a while to get there?

Because I felt like your style back in the day was kind of antithical to that, that you were about just bombing and doing throwups more yeah yeah and now so that's the way i had to take it basically and now i'm just i'm doing more piecing styles right does it does it feel like a compromise to you know it feels good it's safer it kind of feels good yeah like i'm just kind of like relaxing more so focusing on art more getting out of that like young vandal mind state but realistically is going to be hard to hold down in the long run. Still sticking around, you know, you're in there.

I feel like you could be totally lying. I mean, you might be getting up all the time. I don't know. I'm okay with it. Either way. Where do you feel like you're at in the game now? If graffiti is a weird thing to grow old then, right? Yeah, but...

Not that anyone here is old, but... Well, I started late. I'm old. I started late. Yeah, I tell people like, oh, yeah, man, you've been out of for a while. Like, you know, I'm not old school. I'm just old.

But no, I started late. I found graffiti late. And I'm still in it at this late date because I love it. Mostly I love the trains. I do walls. I do some spots here and there. And I think even after I have to hang up all the cans, I will always want to take like a silver uni and go right on something that's rusty metal.

Because I just love that. I love that flow. I love that feeling. Yeah. When you guys come. I'm still going strong. I got 6,000 frets and I'm still at it. You're keeping track.

Oh, yeah. You have photos of all of them. Not photos. Okay. I just keep track. You can keep track of the, you can get every car by the ID number, the reporting mark and the ID number of the car. Uh-huh. And I have them all recorded.

Really? Since 2000. So you write down the car that you did it on, even though realistically the car is probably and painted over at some point. Yeah, just as a marker, like, yeah, I did this. And it was way back when, when I was first getting into freights, I mean, I started painting in 97, but I was a toy for like two, three years. Barely, I didn't even meet, learn until 99.

But I was hearing people who were already up on freights, you know, given estimates of how many freights they've done. Right. And they were like, oh, yeah, I probably got 500. I probably got a thousand. And I'm like, I wonder if there may be pad in that number a little bit, either deliberately or accidentally. So I'm like, I wonder what it would be like to actually keep track from the beginning.

So in 2000, I decided to get serious about freight. And I started recording all the information about them. I remember. And I started to like get an idea of like, yeah, I think people are inflating their numbers because I'd get, I'd get stuck at like, you know, it took forever to get from 600 to 700, you know, like, I'd do a bunch at a couple weekends in a row. I'd go hard for a summer month and then like I'd do my paperwork and be like, man, I'm only 635.

I feel like I haven't. I haven't thought about this since then, but I remember we went to Wendy's and in Nashville and I remember like you guys were talking about getting to a thousand freight. Oh, yeah. Like a thousand was like a number that everybody there was kind of like, yeah, like, maybe I'll stop when I get to a thousand. I'm just trying to get to a thousand. You know,

which sounds funny now because that was 20 years ago. I'm sure everybody who was there exceeded that. Yeah, there was a few, there's probably like three years that we were up to like $2.50 a year. And that was the meat for me, but not this guy. But yeah, because I mean,

you think about $1,000. I mean, it's like, like you said $2.50. I mean, doing a piece nearly every day. That's a lot. For fucking. four years. I mean, that's insane. Even just the money that would cost you,

even if you paid half of your pain or whatever, I mean, it's going to cost you a fortune. Dedication. Yeah, for real. Well, I'm blessed because I don't have a whole lot of side expenses. Like, I spend money on, like, good food and spray paint. And, you know, I don't gamble. I don't drink.

I don't do a lot of, I don't really do drugs. I mean, you know, maybe DMT once a year. but I don't like shop a lot or buy stuff or have an expensive car or anything so all I spend money on is like good food, good coffee and spray paint. Right. Definitely. Yeah, I, uh, I'm kind of the same way. It's like I just don't really, I have a hard time to think of anything to spend my money on,

but I also don't spend on those spray paint. So, um, okay, but so when you look at that whole time period, were there any other times where you like took time off as a result of just trying to like just life getting in the way or were you like super consistent throughout the whole time that you've been doing this uh well just after the jail thing i had a kid as well so that deaf slowed me down what are the freight spots that like when you're talking about paying that consistently like what what kind of spots have you guys had and how how laid back are they um well the first rule of spots is you don't name the spot right well. Yeah, I really don't name it. Yeah. We blew Nashua. We already blew Nashville. I've actually

only done Nashua a handful of times. Really? Probably maybe a half dozen times just because it's a little bit of a hike. Yeah. But yeah, we've got, usually you have like a, you know, like I used to do this sweep, like a drive around to like, you know, we had 10 or 12 different spots all in like a few hours drive. And you'd check one. And if it wasn't laid up, you'd drive to the next one. And the first one that, they'd, they'd, they'd. that had something good in it, you'd park and go in and do your thing. Right. That's changed a bit, a lot of the spots, especially in New England, like a lot of, you know, the U.S. doesn't manufacture as much as it used to. So a lot of branch lines dry up, get rusty, turn into rail trails, customers disappear

or switch to trucks. So it's rough. But in the last 10 years, I've done a lot more traveling around North America and hitting freight's, you know, in other less likely places. You're more likely to meet up with some locals that already know the lay of the land or just show up and just do your own thing? Either way, sometimes I reach out and network. If I can't network, I'll go to a town by myself and I'll treat the spot like it is

actually maybe somebody's spot already. Like, you know, don't leave cans, don't leave any evidence going, hit my, spread it out a little bit, don't hit every car, and just maybe nobody even knows I was there. But I've also been rolled or rolled up on some locals while they were doing the spot. Right. And, you know, met some people that way. Good vibes, or do you go into it, like, expecting a conversation? I just, most of the times I ran into people at spots were, like, on the more recent side when I've already established my name.

So people would know who I was and that trip. When I told them why I was, I'd be like, oh, shit, what are you doing here? It's just got to be weird as fuck because you're walking up and like they don't know if you're undercover or whatever. And at the same time, you don't want to fucking announce yourself. Like my name is like, you know, like that's kind of awkward too. Yeah, I learned one day with this guy at a layup in I think 2001, I learned that like if you roll up on your own boys, like, and they didn't know you were coming because it was like before cell phones. Like one of the things you don't say is, yo. Then we all run.

Yeah. These, there were two, this guy, was it arson? I think so, yeah. Yeah, those two were there and they just heard some guy yell, yo, and they just ran and hid, and it took a few minutes for us to, like, figure it out. But so, so when I walk up on somebody now, and I know they're writing, I know their writers, and I want them to know I'm a writer, I just take out a, if there's, if there's no reason to be, like, ultra-stealthy at that moment, I'll just pick, take out a can and shake it as I walk up on them.

That is the simple. And when they look, they'll be like, oh, okay. I feel like there's like an equivalent to that with like Native American chiefs or something that they, then they have some kind of like noise making instrument. Well, I'm sure they probably have all kinds of noise making instruments, but I feel like there's got to be a historical precedent for that. Announcing yourself. So, I mean, where are you at in terms of, like, he's talking about how he prefers doing legal stuff more or even doing like paid jobs and stuff. Are you, are you fucking with that kind of stuff as well? Yeah, I got some, I got some like art commissions and some,

you know mural type jobs and stuff and i i take those when i can get them and uh but um i still just love the frets i just love frets and i love traveling and when i travel i will get up on stationary objects and you know other than steel yeah in different cities i remember i went to the island guadalupe one time with my girl for a week and it was so obvious to me that some out-of-towners that showed up and gone on vacation and just done shit all over the fucking island yeah And it was so sick to see and also just kind of bizarre to think that like this whole island had this like graffiti vibe going as a result of like really two or three names that I just kept seeing over and over and over. Yeah. And it just kind of blew my mind.

Like these dudes just went on vacation and God knows how many fucking spray paint cans they brought with them or purchased. It goes back to the heart of why graffiti is even fun. It's like Kilroy was here. Like I came through. Yeah. And I'll go to faraway places and be like, oh, there is. oh, there's jabber. Oh, there's a rupto.

I know that dude. You know, like, there's so-and-so. And it's, it's, sometimes it's subtle stuff. Like, I've seen, you know, scribes on the gas station mirrors at, like, truck stops and stuff. And in the middle of nowhere. I've seen, like, white out tags on curbstones. And I'm like, I know that, dude. Right.

It's just a trip to see people's names up in the cutiest, weirdest spots. Okay. Do you ever think about this? What is the, like, the legacy? that you kind of leave behind as a graffiti writer. Because on one hand, you spend your whole career trying to remain as low as possible. And then, you know, at one point, you die

and there's not much of like a public record connecting you to this work or whatever. You ever think about that? You ever think about, like, compiling? Like, especially with you keeping track of all your freight, at some point, you ever think about, like, maybe you would leave some kind of, like, tomb by which all this stuff could be remembered by?

Or is it more supposed to be of the moment? the um i think one general i think the most logical uh path is that one grows into the other you start off in the moment and you have if you put it put to string together enough moments you got a legacy and then um maybe you could like put a book out or or you know do some do some stuff with that and let people know your name and would you want your kids to know about all the graffiti that you do well i don't i don't have any kids but have you got that sure yeah well yeah well Why not?

I would. I would totally, if I had kids, I would totally be like, yep, this is what I do. This is, you know, stay off the train tracks until I show you all the right stuff because it's dangerous. Yeah. But, you know, I'm not ashamed in the least of what I do. I'm proud of what I do. Right. It's just, you know, it's illegal, so I got to keep it on the low.

Is there anything about graffiti that seems different to you as you get older and become a little bit more of a responsible adult? Yes, like writing on churches, like just stupid stuff. Right. Yeah, I've gotten more conservative and more picky about what spots I'll paint. I want to make sure it's either derelict or a train or a generic thing, like a bridge. I'm not trying to, try to, you know, etch the windows of a mom and pop store. They're just, you know, because now I'm in the generation where a lot of my friends run businesses. And they, you know, their back door got tagged.

And they call me up and be like, you know this guy? Tell him to get the hell out of here. Yeah, like it's different than the graffiti example. But I grew up, you know, if there was a rail in front of somebody's house, you know, we were going to ride the rail until we got kicked out. And now as I get older, like, I live in a nice area. And my jaw would hit the floor if I saw somebody skateboard in one of my neighbor's yards, you know? And I could never imagine in a million years.

Like the closer you get to being that person, the harder it is to justify. And even when we had the store on Melrose, we got a billboard across the street. And like three days later, somebody did a throw up over it. And it was kind of a bummer because it was terrible. And I was like, you fucking ruined our billboard for that. Yeah. We spent $5,000 for you to do that on it. But at the same time.

Yeah, you got to respect it. Like, what the fuck? I guess that's what you guys do around here. And really, it's like that billboard is way too accessible from the roof. Like, I would never pay for a billboard like that again just because it was like, it's just too easy. It's like you're fucking right there. I could get up there in five minutes if I wanted, you know? Yeah, buy your ad on one of them billboards with the razor wire.

Yeah. Is there a lot of that these days? Around here, yeah. I see razor wire in a lot of places where people are thinking of climbing. Yeah, because once a billboard gets hit 20 times, they probably get pretty frustrated. Yeah. Got to do something about that. So when you come out to California, what is your analysis of the graffiti scene for?

what you can tell. It's huge. Yeah. This city's crashed. During the pandemic, the fucking freeways that I hadn't seen really hit up that much in years became like everything. Like, unreal. The pandemic brought so many people out of retirement or like, you know, some of the rules

relaxed, some of the, as a writer, like my life didn't change as much as most other people's when the pandemic hit because I was already like in the habit of avoiding people. wearing a mask so it became a lot more normalized to our mask where all of a sudden you could walk down street wearing a mask and nobody would think shit about it as a graffiti ride that was about the best thing that could happen i was wearing my respirator into whole food yeah exactly and you just look like you're you know really really trying to avoid covid yeah exactly so um so yeah and and then all the other side stuff i had going on got shut down from the pandemic so i painted twice as much And it's a weird state of affairs where I saw something with the mayor in New York City just acknowledging straight up.

Like we don't really have, you know, we're not sending anybody out to cover up your graffiti. We've kind of given up. It's just, there's no resources for it. We're just not treating this like it's an emergency anymore. And for somebody who loves graffiti, you're kind of hearing that. Like, oh, wow. Like, I didn't even know it was possible for you to say something that reasonable. Like in the 90s, we never could have imagined a city having that kind of attitude towards graffiti.

Yeah, I mean, what I'd like to add is it was never an emergency in the first place, I mean, you know, but, um, but yeah, we, we just kept pushing. Yeah. As a culture, we just keep pushing. It's just weird to, like, because even when I talk to dudes out here, they're like, you know, the level of attention that this shit gets. Like, when I did the MTA interview, they were just straight up like, bro, it's not, like it used to be. Like, they're just not out to get us in the same way. It doesn't mean you can't get caught, but you're going to have to fuck up a lot harder. It's probably city to city, too.

Yeah. Yeah, it varied. There's still some uptight cities That just don't want to see it Yeah You go downtown LA I mean Anything goes down there

You got people dying in front of you I mean this got to be kind of low On the list of priorities But up here I mean if you were to start If you do 10 fucking throwups out here Oh they are talking about you at that police station Like you're going to be a big

Conversation for sure Yeah So okay where do you guys See this going from here Like do you have any particular goals that you want to accomplish before you end the graffiti chapter of your life and do you think it will end or you think it'll be doing this when you're 80?

I will be for sure. Always just like walking the train lines like tagging. Right. Right. Not stuff with a silver uni. Yeah. Or Markov.

Yeah. What was the dude with the little sombrero guy? Herbie. But the moniker. It's like a... Yeah. The old moniker on the freight trains. of the dude taking a siesta?

Yeah, what did it say? It was just Herbie. Herbie? I feel like there was something else that they would write next to it that maybe I'm forgetting, but I can't remember. Well, he was a rail, Hervey was a rail worker, and he did monikers for, I don't know, like 50 years, like up to his death in, I think, 1995. That's bad. And then, by then people had, people, like, revered his moniker as like, oh, this guy got up.

Like, this is one of the OG moniker dudes for freights. So some people started to do tribute. They'd do his sketch. They'd just do a, it wasn't counterfeit because it was a tribute. But they'd do his sketch and maybe write something else below it. My buddy, the solo artist, likes to put... That's who I'm famous. The solo artist.

He likes to put herbie. But that's an interpretation of an older tag, you're saying? When the solo artist has his own moniker. Okay. And he's been doing it for a long time. And he's one of the OGs in the moniker game. Right. But he also, he gives a lot of respect to all the old moniker guys, and he'll do little tributes.

He's done tributes to Herbie and other, other, you know, big names that have passed away. You know any books in particular that kind of talk about that whole moniker game with these sort of simple sketches done in those, what are they, like the wax pens or whatever? Oil bars. Yeah. Yeah, oil bars or Marqualls. I can't, I'm on the spot, so I can't think of them right now. But there is literature about this? Yeah, I could give you stuff later.

I could give you stuff later if I could look it up. Oh, yeah, I'd like to learn more about that because that's just so fascinating to me, like people who kind of like invented modern graffiti before it became invented, that they just sort of like had an inkling of what it was going to be like. That's pretty sick. Oh, go ahead. I enjoyed, that's what I enjoy doing the most nowadays, it's just taking out the streak and just walking the whole line

and hitting like 60 cars. And then it's for, fulfilling yeah most of the um most of the OG like older generation freightheads have a lot of respect for the moniker culture and we've tried to teach it to the younger generations and it's like you can't hold back the tide people are just blasting with aerosol at night you can barely see some of these old faded monikers so they just get blasted right over and it's it's kind of a shame but it's like it's almost like how do what what can we even do about it i'm as careful as i can i've probably made some mistakes too i was watching like on youtube i'm just like randomly it'll show me some

fucking graffiti dude i'll start watching it and i'm watching this dude and he's just like he's he's german or some shit so he's on some weird euro style whatever but he got like a wall in his backyard and he's just doing a piece making a youtube video about it and then just painting over the same exact wall and then just doing another piece and i was just like you know respect because you you have your own spot and you get to just practice your shit but just painting on the same surface over and over like that would that kill it for you like that just seems like it would be deeply unfulfilling to me uh the only point of that to me is just like you're practicing or you're trying out a new idea a new color a new a new fade or like but it's practice or doing a new

not for you too it's not the real thing it's that that's that isn't graffiti when you're yeah you're painting the little wall in your backyard practice you know yeah you can practice shooting hoops in your yard is not the same as playing in for the championship or playing in any you sort of organized league you know it's not it's not real in the same way yeah yeah um the yeah the um i actually i also had a another take on that same idea which is um for all i spend on paint even though i save money on paint i still spend a lot of money on paint um and i spend effort i spend time you know a lot of times it's most of the time it's illegal so um i kind of got tired of like doing legal walls over and over and i kind of made a rule where like

I actually did this. I painted a stairwell at it. There was a big Halloween party and which was also it was an art show and like a Halloween bash and we prepped the spot and I painted this whole stairwell with like my bone heap style like all the skulls

and bones and like cascading down like like you know every square foot of a stairwell covered and you know the dude who ran the place was a good buddy of ours and he was like you know when you're done you if you want to go ahead and do this you got to roll this white when you're done i'm like yeah yeah no problem and then so the the party was a

you know a success and it was it was fun and then of course i had to come back the next day and start whitewashing all of my shit i don't have it feel i got the flicks and all but i but i was like i was rolling over my shit i'm like this is this is whack i'm like destroying my own shit you know right and i i made it and then like i'm i was like all tired and i like actually dropped the roller and the roller just like rolled down the stairs like clunk clunk and like painted the stairs white as it was i'm just watching it get on the stairs i'm like i'm never fucking doing this again i'm never like i'm never going over myself right again but it's weird because if it had been somebody else who went over it it wouldn't have felt that bad right because that's inevitable right everything's going to go away right but i may i kind of made a rule like you know there's so many blank walls out there why would i ever go over myself again so i just it just a little it's just a little quirky thing that with me. I just decided from that day forward. I'm never painting directly over myself. Yeah. I mean, you're painting for the feeling.

And at the end of the day, that fucking the anti-feeling, when you go over it, it's like if that's going to feel that much worse, that's like why I don't want to do drugs anymore at this point of my life. Because yeah, it feels good, but then there's the bad part afterwards. Yeah, yeah. It's like if you're going to enjoy painting, but then there's like it's really bad going

over it part after it. Yeah. With, especially with respect to illegal stuff, like, if it's real graffiti and I risked my freedom to do it, I'm not going to, I want the maximum runtime out of everything I do. So I'm going to let it die a natural death. There's no way I would like change it to something else. I would just go do a different spot.

So when you guys come out to L.A., though, how do you approach getting up? Connections. Tap in with people and they sort of show you stuff rather than you just like finding spots. This is my first time in L.A. Oh, really? Wow. I've been to Sam Fran, but. Damn. Never here.

I do a combo. I reach out to people and network. And then, you know, a lot of times the people I'm networking with are a little on the older side. And they've got their kids and their mortgages and their jobs to go to. So they'll put me on to something. But then I'm on my own the rest of the time while I'm in town. And I'll go hunt around and just I got a nose for certain types of spots. I got an eye for, I got nothing to prove anymore in terms of.

bombing. Like, I don't need to be doing heavens or highways where I might have to run. I'm past the age where I need to prove that to myself or anyone else. I mean, I've put in a lot of work. So I'm just, I'm at a point where I'm like, if I do a spot, if I want to get my name up, I tend to pick a spot that maybe the wall is set back a little from the road. It's a little easier to do. Cutty spots. Little cutty spots, little places where people might have to walk the tracks or look a little harder or look a little deeper and be like, oh, that dude. Oh, that dude came through. That's weird.

I like that kind of stuff, but I no longer have the urge to, like, come here and, like, take over, you know. I feel you. That's what's up. Hey, it was great, it was a great gun to learn you guys' perspective on all this shit for sure. And to reconnect after 22 years. Wow. One of my first internet links. I met with him way before I ever got posting off the internet.

which would later go on to become a much more common way of meeting up with people fuck all right well i appreciate you guys uh for coming through anything we need to know about uh we can do a few shoutouts for sure yeah let's hear all the homies and uh all our crews why me circle t six three um my boys in oqb bobby and viny trout art chart art supply chart art supply and I want to and I especially want to shout out

my boy Lern the founder of Ymi crew and the first writer I actually ever met in person linked up with and I'd also like to say rest in peace Zaire, rest in peace spree

rest in peace Mize they all wrapped Circle T and rest in peace Billy ORG from OQB crew in New York for sure I appreciate you guys coming on. Thanks so much.

All right. Thank you. No Jumper. Coolest podcast from world. Check us on YouTube, TikTok, Patreon, Instagram, etc. Like, comment, and subscribe. Nojumber.com if you want to support.