No Jumper - The Bruce Rivers, Criminal Lawyer Interview: "Who I Smoke", NBA Youngboy, King Von & More

Episode Date: May 25, 2021

Bruce Rivers made his way to the Youtube commentary community by reviewing rap videos as a professional lawyer breaking down some of the toughest cases. https://www.instagram.com/clrbrucerivers/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz0HITWbcUYEHi3TZXTyFrw/videos ----- CHECK OUT OUR NEW SPOTIFY PLAYLIST https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5tesvmDS8h50LkjnSAWMOs?si=j6sJD6DkR4mk5NZZWnlK7g FOLLOW US ON SNAPCHAT FOR THE LATEST NEWS & UPDATES https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_Jumper/4874336901 CHECK OUT OUR ONLINE STORE!!! http://www.nojumper.com/ SUBSCRIBE for new interviews (and more) weekly: http://bit.ly/nastymondayz Follow us on Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/nojumper iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/no-jumper/id1001659715?mt=2 Follow us on Social Media: https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_Jumper/4874336901 http://www.twitter.com/nojumper http://www.instagram.com/nojumper https://www.facebook.com/NOJUMPEROFFICIAL http://www.reddit.com/r/nojumper JOIN THE DISCORD: https://discord.gg/Q3XPfBm Follow Adam22: https://www.tiktok.com/@adam22 http://www.twitter.com/adam22 http://www.instagram.com/adam22 adam22hoe on Snapchat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No Jumper. Coolest podcast on the world. And today I have a newly infamous, I don't know if you say infamous or famous criminal lawyer who's made quite an impression on YouTube. It's Bruce Rivers on the podcast. How you doing, man? Great to be here. Yeah. Amazing.

I guess I wanted to start out with just asking how this whole YouTube destiny that you seemed to have landed upon became an idea. Was this really like a COVID-inspired thing? No, not at all. My son, Michael Rivers, who is my producer and actually the brains behind everything. Okay. It was his brainchild. He's really into the rap and the drill music and he can spin a beat like nobody else. It was his idea.

And we did just one episode about a year ago. And all of a sudden we looked at it, didn't pay any attention to it. And it had over 100,000 views. Oh, wow. So then in February, we started doing it on a regular basis. And now we're up to almost 300,000 subscribers. drivers. Right. And it's going, it's gone crazy. Wow. And this must be a pretty wild experience for you, because how many years have you been practicing law? 23 years. 23 years. And I mean, you know,

being a lawyer seems like a pretty well-paid job. And certainly, you know, you get a lot of respect amongst your people, but to have sort of this social media fame as a result, it's not a lot of famous social media lawyers, I'm thinking. Well, no. And if they are, they're pretty fucking boring. but I think one of the things that when you read the comments they love that an older white guy is breaking down basically this hardcore drill music

and then I add some words of wisdom to some folks and try to inspire and I can't tell you how many kids have come to me saying hey I want to be a lawyer now you know it's actually kind of taken on a life in a community of its own

yeah I think it's great because there's so many of these kids who are making these videos and saying this crazy shit and songs and stuff who clearly just don't, haven't done the work or thought about how this stuff might look in front of a judge. So you see crazy stuff, like people deleting their entire music catalog

once they get arrested and accused of something. And it's like, well, maybe you just shouldn't have been putting out that effort or that energy and making it so easy on the cops in the first place, right? Well, one of our first videos that we did was a King Vaughn video. And it was a reaction to basically self-stop

snitching because they talk in the video how I killed this person, how I did this, how, and they're all talking in self-first person. And it got me to thinking that, you know, about self-snitching and how many cases I've had where they acquire social media and people are sitting there with guns or with, you know, flaring out the money and right after a crime has been committed and they just mine the social media data and it's like you don't have a shot at beating the case. Right. And it used to be such a big conversation about like, oh, should lyrics be used in court? The lyrics, you know, there's obviously going to be an element of artistry to it. And I think that in the average courtroom, that would be a pretty compelling counter argument

to say that these lyrics are not all based on facts. But with the social media stuff, a lot of it just becomes really open and shut, right? Well, as far as the lyrics go, yeah, I get a lot of comments about, oh, it's just art. They can't use those. But here's the thing. There's a, you know, a statement of a party. opponent. That's a rule of evidence. So like if you and I sue each other, I can use your words against you. So if the government brings a criminal case, the defendant's own words can be used

against him, but it has to be relevant. So if it's just art and you're just telling a story, you know, it probably wouldn't come into evidence. But if it can be linked up to specific facts, it's coming into evidence and it's going to hang your ass. It's kind of interesting you mentioned King Vaughn because he is sort of been like one of the most popular storyteller type artists of this past couple years. But then a lot of the stories, even though, like, I think a lot of the stories are pretty clearly, you know, fiction, but they're also, like, largely based on reality, too. He's specifically mentioning people that every cop in Chicago knows that he actually has issues with. That's a big part of the marketing behind it. Is that in any way unique from your perspective?

Like, like, how would you imagine defending King Vaughn, rest of peace, of course? But if those, lyrics had been brought up in court. Like what would be your best response to that? Exactly the way he beat the murder case that he did. Hopefully the witnesses don't show up. Oh, really? So that is how we beat that one. That's how we beat that case. That he was in jail for like two or three years waiting to go to trial for that, right?

Right. And the only way he beat that is because nobody fucking showed up. And when somebody doesn't show up, they can't just use your words. It's called corpus delecti. You can't be convicted on your words alone. Somebody's got to corroborate everything you're saying. So if you were admitted to a crime, but there's no other evidence to support what you're saying, you can't be convicted. Wow, it's really interesting.

Let's bring it back a little bit and just start out with what your upbringing was like and how you decided to get into law. Well, I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis, and I worked for my father at an ambulance company, and I was about to get my MBA and be kind of a business guy. And I'm sitting there one day, and all of a sudden, the attorney general's, my dad owned the company, and the attorney general's office, along with cops, came in and seized all of his records. Oh, wow. And they charged he and his partner and his secretary with Medicare and Medicaid fraud. And his lawyers just basically saw how much he had in the bank, took it. And back then it was late 80s, about a quarter of a million bucks, and he screwed him.

And he went to prison, and the day before he was supposed to go to prison, he tried to kill himself with a 38 revolver. my brother and I and my brother-in-law, we tackled him, wrestled the gun out of his hand, and then he wound up going to prison. For how long? For 18 months, and then he was on probation for 10 years after that. You don't want to kill yourself instead of doing 18 months, right? Not to be insensitive or anything. He was a fireman, he was a pinnacle, his world was crashing below him.

And a good thing he didn't because he took care of my mother and he bounced kids off his knee after that. But when I saw how shitty his lawyers treated him, and one of them had never even tried a criminal case, I decided to change what I wanted to do. So I started doing some investigative work for his appellate lawyer, and then went to law school and opened a law firm right out of the block, right, on my own. Wow, so that kind of inspired you, just seeing like how you felt like you could do a better job in terms of the service that he was receiving. I know I did a better job. I do a kick-ass job. And the only reason I do a good job is because I really give a shit

about the people that I represent. You're sitting there with your client and one minute he's looking at 25 years, the next minute he's walking home. There ain't no greater feeling than that. That is just a rush. Because that's the conclusion of every hour that you sat at your desk

reading some mind-numbing paperwork or whatever, right? It is, but you're helping somebody. You know, you're affecting change. you're really helping a life. Definitely. Yeah, I feel like as a kid, my father went to prison for some white collar crime type stuff.

And I got to see that up close and personal as a young kid of just what it was like for him to have the whole city that we grew up and know that he was dealing with these issues. And that's very different than a lot of the people that you sort of commentate about where if you were to go and do a year or two in prison, it's almost like a stamp on you.

Like it sort of proves that you're real as opposed to other people, whereas people who have more, you know, normal upbringings or normal corporate careers or whatever, even just going to trial, even going away for a few months or a year, can be, like, devastating to how people view you, huh? That's a good point because the people who do that, you know, they get shunned socially, you know, if they're in that white collar, suburban white area. And whereas if you're a thug, you have that culture, the gangster culture, where you do a bid, and you don't snitch on somebody, you come out and you're embraced.

It is really a juxtaposition. Definitely. So where have you practiced law throughout your life? Has it mostly been in Minneapolis? In Minneapolis, but I've had cases in Vegas and Maryland all over the country. Well, I saw you say that, that you're willing to travel to take on cases. Is that like a big decision, like to go away for a month or two? Or how long would you typically be?

Here's why I like it. I like trying a case out of town because no distractions. You know, you're at a hotel. All you're dealing, you don't have kids to deal with, you don't have a wife to deal with, you just deal with the facts of the case, and your investigator and your team, and it seems like I can do better work that way, it seems. I don't know how my girl would feel if I use that logic on her. Like, yeah, I like being out of town because I don't have to be around you or the kid.

She might feel a certain way about that. Well, it works. I feel you. How long, like, but when you do go out of town, what is it, like, a couple weeks on average or months? Okay, it's not that long. It's never months. Usually a week to two, maybe three weeks, tops. Okay.

And so in Minneapolis, though, like early on, did you find yourself just gravitating towards criminal defense? Yeah, 100% criminal defense. Okay. And so were you dealing with a lot of people who were street-wise from very early on, drug dealers and people accused of violence and stuff like that? Oh, for sure. Okay.

Absolutely. Definitely. I always say there's nothing like a good homicide between friends. How many, could you give us an estimate of how many? like homicide cases you've had to deal with? Well, I've been practicing 23 years, probably 40, 50 homicides at least over the years. Was there a time, you know, a lot of the stuff you talk about now is so intrinsically wrapped up in rap music.

If you ever actually defended a rapper? Oh, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Sort of more local acts or any big names? I'm not going to tell you who it is, but yeah, I've represented some famous, some not so famous. And here's what I really like. I love true gangsters.

Really hardcore, you know, if they're real good gangsters. The reason I like them is because, one, they know business. Two, they don't bitch. And then three, they fucking pay. Right. And those are the best kind of clients to have. Right. Definitely.

And they're realistic. They're usually pretty smart and they can analyze a situation and they're easy to deal with. Right. But even like real gangsters, I feel like these days end up getting caught up quite often due to stuff that if they were maybe a little bit more wise, they wouldn't be doing like the social media stuff and the rap lyric stuff, of course. But I mean, these days there's a million different ways to get caught.

Usually these are the real young guys that you're talking about. And I agree with you. And that's why some of my stuff, at least lately, I've been kind of preachy, you know, trying to just impart a tiny bit of wisdom to these kids because they're fucking killing each other. and over nothing. Right.

I know that's the craziest part about it is that, like, being an adult, you can look at these young kids and say, like, this is just the worst use of your time imaginable. Like, prison is the worst conclusion to your life, basically, that you could end up with, and you're making it so easy to get caught up on these things. You should be focused on building stuff up for your family and, you know, pursuing happiness, pursuing a better career.

I mean, just focusing so much your energy on these, like, petty street beefs. It's just ridiculous. And now they so quickly go to shootings. It's not like, oh, we have a problem with each other, so we go fight each other in the park and then somebody gets a black eye and that's it. No, exactly. One of the things I preach about it, I'm not a preacher, but one of the things I say on my channel

is that you should always be building, building a life, building your education, building your relationships, building your financial future, building for tomorrow. And each day you do build a little something, all of a sudden five years comes by and you look back of what you built, you make better decisions because you don't want to lose what you just got to unbuild it. Yeah, it was just like, but okay, so from your perspective, what really needs

to happen for there to be prolonged societal change in terms of, you know, a lot of the people were talking about they come from very impoverished neighborhoods and, you know, how do you see a potential future in which this could become less normal for these people to just

keep killing each other nonstop? Black men. What do you mean about that? Black men, when you have a young man who's in that situation, he needs a positive somebody to look up to. You know, I can't tell you how often it is that these black women are left holding the fucking bag. They are the strongest thing in these neighborhoods. They are the strongest, and they're the ones that always come to me. What these young men need are strong black men. They have the strong black women, but what they need is a black, strong black women.

but what they need is a black, strong black man to, you know, to model after, to mentor them. Yeah, and, you know, it's crazy because when I was a kid, we were looking up to... Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Nashville, New Hampshire, about 45 minutes outside of Boston. But, you know, we grew up looking at, you know, who were the big rappers of the day. I mean, normally there's a guys who are maybe in their early 30s, maybe late 20s, but, you know, they had some time to develop and, you know, develop some sort of maturity, and there's like a filter because, you know,

maybe the major labels don't necessarily want to be putting out some stuff that's truly demonic. Nowadays with social media and YouTube, the floodgates are open. And a lot of these young kids end up basically idolizing, you know, like 18-year-olds, 20-year-olds, et cetera, who are talking about crazy street shit. There's no barrier between the stuff that they're talking about

and it being available commercially. And the end result is that you have, you know, kids who, their brain isn't even developed enough. to understand the risks that they're taking or to understand how stupid some of this shit is. And they have, you know, a rapper that they look up to talking about smoking their ops. And they think that that's like a normal thing to do or a normal way to go through your life to just think that that's in some way admirable. Well, I did two reactions. One to who I smoke.

And then the other one was, I see you. I see you. Yeah. By Fulio who you haven't here the other day. Right. Yeah. And it wasn't until I. And part of what I do is a little tongue and cheek,

because some of the language is just outrageous. And these guys think it's funny when they hear an older white guy repeat some of their stuff or whatever. But then all of a sudden it hit me what they're singing about. And then Fulios, he may not be at their gravesite, but he is at a grave site, and he's laying on their pictures, you know, a poster board of these people who are dead. And it just, and it really hit me when I was doing that one.

And you can actually probably tell that I'm a little more somber towards the end of that reaction because it's just like, fuck, you guys. I mean, let's stop this killing each other, you know. The jokes about, you know, 16-year-old kids who got shot outside of their parents' house or, you know, they're walking to their friend's house or whatever, I mean, you've got to be pretty fucking cold-hearted to think that that's funny or in any way like something that could be used for entertainment. And I say that, acknowledging that both sides of that gang war are clearly doing exactly that.

Well, it becomes less about the music and more about the disrespect. Oh, totally. And you know what? This is a weird moment because for years and years and years, we've had drill rappers making drill records about each other. But musically, it sounds like drill music and it's maybe not going to go to a certain level. It's not really going to go past a certain level of popularity.

But then with the folio and young Yenai situation, they both made what are essentially like pop records. And meanwhile, they're saying the most evil shit that you could possibly imagine the whole Well, that's why when I started out my reaction to who I smoke, I'm like, well, and I hadn't seen it before. So I was, okay, well, these look like fine young gentlemen. Here they are on a golf course. And I can relate to these guys. That's what I, that's what I, my initial reaction was.

Then all of a sudden they, you know, who I smoke, you know, and then they're talking about people who are dead and that their group killed them, you know. From your perspective, if you were forced to defend someone who had made a song such as that, would you consider it to be an incredibly difficult task for you? Like it makes your job infinitely more difficult if there's a record of them talking about all these murders and everything like that. Because if one of these guys was charged with a murder, these videos would 100% be played in court, right? Well, I would think so, but you know, you have to make the argument that it's just art. Right. You know, that these are just, they're like social commentators.

Right. You know, and unless they can link it up to specific facts, it seems to me that it would be more prejudicial than probative. But it is hard when your client makes statements and, you know, they're self-snitching. There's nothing worse than that. Yeah, and like the number one thing that. Your lawyer will tell you if you ever catch a criminal charge would basically be to shut the fuck up, don't say shit on social media. Every single thing that you say would be used against you. Shut the fuck up is right.

How important is that, though? That is literally what you would tell your client. Because a lot of times you see people get charged with very serious things and you know they want to respond. And they go months and months and months before they ever say anything on social media because they know that that's just going to be used against them, right? First time I want anybody to hear my client's words or when they're one of my clients on the stand. generally try to keep your client off the stand if you can but if you have he said she said case or he said he said case then the only time you want your client's words to be spoken are when they're on the stand definitely okay what other cases have made a real impact on you in terms of music cases etc like what has really caught your attention in terms of you doing this content for about the past year or so well king vaughn's murder that was that was caught on camera and I'm And I thought that was, and that's Little Tim that's caught up in that. And so I thought that was very interesting.

And then because it was like caught on camera, and people have asked me, what you think it's self-defense? Is it not self-defense? And then you got the cops shooting at the same time. Right. A lot going on there. So before the cops started shooting, just the incident that involved were basically King Vaughn, Punched Cuando Rondo, Little Tim starts shooting and hits,

King Vaughn multiple times. I know that like probably the laws are a little different from state to state, but from your perspective, is that self-defense? Did it look like he was reasonably defending his friend when he shot King Vaughan? Well, if little Tim can honestly say, and it's reasonable that he, that everybody else was armed or he reasonably believed everybody to be armed and he was trying to protect somebody because he thought somebody was going to, their life was in jeopardy, well, then it might be. but, you know, without knowing more about the case and the actual, you know, reports that have been made,

it's hard to say. And it's hard to bring a knife to a gunfight basically when you have, the force has got to be proportional. So if you have a fist fight and you have guns, generally that's not a reasonable response. But if everybody else is armed and people are starting to bring out their guns, you know, that might be a nuance that would make it reasonable. Yeah, and not that I'm picking sides or anything, but from my perspective, I'm assuming that King Vaughn is rolling around with people who have guns. And we know for a fact that he had a whole bunch of armed security with him as well. But they were in like basically a convoy and King Vaughan kind of split off from that and started to fight Kwandao Rondo without even thinking to notify everybody that was with him. I think if I was the judge and I was hearing that argument that little Tim was assuming that everybody had guns and that this was very quickly going to become a gun fight, I mean, it's not to defend what he did or anything, but it does seem like that was a pretty reasonable assumption.

But you see how it's not just a yes or no? I mean, it's a nuance. Right. And so those facts have got to be built by the lawyer and, you know, by the team. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, what kind of messages do you hear? from the people who watch your content. Do you feel like they're watching it for informative purposes? Do you think it's mostly just for entertainment? And what content do you see that's really like registering with your audience? Well, I reacted quite a bit to the George Floyd situation and the Derek Chauvin.

And I get a lot of comments. Can you give us more information about X, about why? Like, for example, NBA Youngboy. We did a whole thing on NBA Youngboy and his situation, how we took off. and had a gun, and, you know, and actually he had, he was, he's being charged now for guns in his videos. Exactly. And that's one of the things I was preaching against, you know? I mean, and even though some say I have guns in my videos, I don't know what they're talking about.

I've never seen a gun in my video. What do you mean by that? Why would you have a gun in your video? And you do all your videos out of a law office. Right, I know. I don't. Why would I? There probably shouldn't be guns in there, I would think.

But they call me, that's why they call me blicky Bruce. Do they? Bruce with a blick. We're definitely going to keep calling you that around here. The most of the comments is, you know, react to this video, react to that video. But sometimes they want updates on, like I said, I commented on the Derek Chauvin. I know, first of all, I know all the lawyers in that case. Oh, okay, yeah.

It's local, yeah. And it happened right across the street from my office. The George Floyd situation. Well, that's the trial. The trial, right. Yeah. So I'm right across the street from the courthouse. So, and I follow, you know, I like to follow some of the more high profile cases, and then I'll comment on those.

But, but then I get, you know, I get rappers constantly contacted me to do their videos. Really? Yeah. Oh, so react. Are you accepting payment for that at this time? No, I don't. I don't take any payments for that. Okay.

Is there any, do you feel like there's any conflict in terms of, like, your career as a lawyer in comparison to you having this social media presence? Does this in any way make your peers take you less serious? or did they consider it like a risk for you in a way? No, not at all. No. Where would the risk be? I just feel like lawyers, there's probably like a big social consensus

that they should behave in a certain way and that a lot of lawyers would not even come on a podcast and use profanity, I would think. Well, that's probably true. Those are the buttoned up stuffy types. You know, I keep it real. Because when I walk out the door, I'm the same person that I am with you,

that I'm with my son, who's uh you know that i'm with anybody and and i and i don't really fit into the white wine drinking uh stuffy crowd you're a little more comfortable in the streets yeah well not in the streets but i i'm just kind of more regular you know right i could just imagine you trying a case and just having the the prosecution mr rivers this isn't one of your youtube videos you know i could just imagine them using that against you is this this Is this hypothetical? Is this not likely to happen?

It's not likely to happen. I would love to... Here's the thing. There are some lawyers that argue about every damn little thing that they can. By the way, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to swear.

No, no, it's great. Yeah, this is YouTube. We love it. Okay. I don't argue about every damn little thing that you can. Some lawyers take an attitude of the prosecutors

and I don't do that. I fight the good fight. I fight everything that I can fight that I think I'm going to win. Because when you have a fight about everything, you lose credibility. And I'm going to have to work with this prosecutor again in another case. I don't need to hate this other person.

We can go do our job. Like I said, you know, there's nothing like a good homicide between friends. And you really get to know the other side when you try a long case with somebody. And if they're the meaner and nastier they get, the calmer. and more delightful I get. Because once they see that they can't get to you, it gets to them. Right. It's like in a relationship.

Right. You get loud, I'm going to get quiet, and start accusing you of being irrational. No, you don't even do that because just let them get more irrational. Yeah, why are you acting so crazy, too? And then the judge takes care of that. Yeah, okay. But that's interesting because, like, how strong is the relationship between you and the prosecutors and the judge?

Because you probably are going to these same judges over and over and over every week. right yeah and I'll give you an example I had a case last year we were set for trial and about just select a jury my client comes in completely fucking blasted on heroin wow blasted I mean and he was being accused of what I mean I could not understand a fucking thing he said but he was being accused of doing what oh second degree of salt it was sold with a night okay and so um So we're sitting there, and I can't say anything because I'm going to break trust with my client. So I just write a little note to the prosecutor and slip it to her.

Because we have to do something here because we can't go on. It's too crazy. And she's like, okay. And so we went back in chambers. We ended things. And then the judge took the heat for everything. Wow. So, I mean, it just you have to, it's a very social thing to be a lawyer.

And you have to have some give and take with the other side. And sometimes, sometimes the other side are just fucking completely dicks and unreasonable. And you can't respond in kind. You have to, in my professional way is to be a decent person, no matter where I am to everybody that I deal with. Do you feel like, you know, because you seem like somebody who's quite empathetic to the struggles of young black men or brought up in the ghetto and are basically forced to, you know, figure out life from there. I would assume the prosecutors quite often don't really have any reason to emphasize the societal

concerns that might have got some of these young men into these predicaments in the first place. They're deaf to it. Right. And it behooves them to be deaf to it because they want it to be a black and white thing. Here is, here are the elements of the statute. You violate the elements of the statute? That's all I give a shit about. Right.

And the world is a lot more gray than that. Exactly. Definitely. And it must be interesting for you being a lawyer because being a lawyer is all about new. There's a lot of nuances, a lot of technicalities. When you're on the internet, people want you to make big, bold, brash generalizations. They want you to say, little Tim's getting off or Lil Tim's going to do 30 years in jail. And as a lawyer, you're not really built to do that, right?

Well, not really, but sometimes. Because like when everybody was, we were all kind of, you know, it's kind of funny because it is like a little community that we've created. And so we were following NBA young boy because he was, he wound up going to California. And then he got in a chase with the cops out there. And then he, then once they kind of got him, he gets out of the car and he starts running and he ditched a gun. And everyone's saying, well, he's, he's going to get out. he's got to, I'm like, ladies gentlemen, he's not getting out.

And here's why he's not getting out. Even though the judge out in California, which is a very liberal court, he's not going to get out. They're going to appeal the magistrate's ruling. He's going to get back to Baton Rouge, and the judge is going to hold him, and that's exactly what happened.

So you're right in the sense that people do want a broad sweeping generalization, but you just can't do it all the time. It would be kind of irresponsible for you to do it. Yeah. And it's just, there's oftentimes so many factors that you don't know about when you read a three-paragraph TMZ article about it, that it just would be kind of silly for you to act like you know exactly what's going to happen from here, right? Right. And so like when it came to Chauvin, I did predict a lot of the things that would happen in there. And that's only because I know, I know the judge, I know the lawyers, I know the prosecutors.

This is one you can speak very authoritatively about, yeah. And so I'm not just relying on some bullshit article. I know exactly what's going to happen. And I predicted it before that the judge was going to grant the upward departure grounds so that they could ask for a much larger sentence on Chauvin. And mark my words right here, he'll get 25 years, a double upward departure. 25 years is your prediction. Right. Guidelines is 12.5, 150 months.

He'll get 300 months. I'm very confident. What did you think of his trial? Do you think it was fair? Do you think it was too much of a media circus? I think the lawyer did what he could. It was a bit of a circus. I mean, I don't envy Eric Nelson. That's the guy who tried that case.

He had a climate, a political climate that was just so against him. And he had one thing. There's a doctrine in law called race Ipsilokwitur. It means the thing speaks for itself. and that nine minutes and 29 seconds speaks for itself. Right. That's how I always felt about it is that if you are going to convince me that this guy did not kill this guy, you are going to have to build such an amazing defense to make me forget about the way that I felt when I first watched that video.

And it's not like I just watched that video. And I had that opinion. Every single person I talked to, everybody from Donald Trump to, you know, at least initially it felt like even all the Republicans were equally horrified by what they saw in that. video it seems like that would be the hardest you know people were really like on Twitter acting like oh maybe maybe the defense had a bad day in court today this isn't looking good like the Derek Chauvin might get off or whatever I'm like the whole time like this is really hard for me to believe yeah well you he just one of the things lawyers can't do we can't change the facts I can't file a motion your honor this is hurting me I'd like some new facts please right

you can't do that and just the idea that like you know okay he was on drugs well How does that, how is that supposed to change my mind about the fact that I watch this guy seemingly kill him on camera? Yeah, it doesn't, it does not take the 929 away. Right, definitely. When you see a lot of the rioting and looting that took place after that, what were your thoughts? I mean, that's your city where you spent most of your time. I was in my front yard with a fucking 9mm and pulled it on my neighbor accidentally. Really?

Yeah. We had licensed plateless cars driving up and down our street. They went to a BP station, totally destroyed it, and a Walgreens, it totally raided it and totally destroyed it. And this is, you know, several miles from where all the other stuff was happening. Right. They were taking garbage cans, because it was garbage day, actually, and they were lighting garbage cans on fire. The people doing the bulk of the destruction were not the peaceful protesters. Right.

I saw them. They, you know, they were two groups. they were these Antifa type folks, and they were the like Bugaloo Boy types. And they were not your, you know, people who were concerned about justice. Sure, were there some people that took advantage of the 100% off sale at Target? Of course there were. But they weren't the people causing the bulk of the problems. Right.

And that is such a crazy thing about when these sort of things happen now is that, you know, you see rumors on social media that, You know, the auto zone burning down was actually just like a right-wing agitator. I don't want to say it if it's not true, but I feel like that actually, that guy was charged with that, and he was, in fact. I saw that. I saw him. You just see the video where he's breaking the window and he's starting that stuff, yeah. Yeah.

I have one of the protesters who's charged federally with one of the arsons, and there's a death that's involved in that. Wow. And that's supposed to go to trial at the end of. of June. So from someone who actually lives in that area, do you feel like the media was honest about what was going on in that area? Because I've seen a lot of people basically making the argument that the destruction that took place in Minneapolis was so destructive, so all-consuming, and that you never really got to see the narrative of how these business owners felt, how these homeowners have their shit burned down, how they reacted to it. Would you say that's accurate?

You know, there's some of it, but what I think is inaccurate is the right-wing spin on it. Because the right-wing spin is, you know, well, if we're going to talk about the thing that happened at the Capitol, let's talk about Black Lives Matter. Well, Black Lives Matter did not destroy the city Minneapolis. It was other agitators. And so to that end, I think people are uninformed about that. Right. That makes sense. Yeah.

Like that happened to me at one point where I actually kind of got duped briefly by sort of like a right wing outlet. Actually, a pretty famous like commentary. This guy Andy Noe, who is notorious for like filming those riots and everything. He posted up a video of a sneaker store on Melrose that's actually across the street from where my store used to be before we shut it down. And just a car, boom, just drives right into the front of the sneaker shop, destroys it, whatever. and Andy No posted it and said that basically made it seem like this was connected to the fact that there was a Black Lives Matter rally maybe a mile away. And at first, I saw that and it seemed logical to me like, oh, maybe this is related to that. Then somebody hits me up and they're like, yo, I know those guys that talk to him who work at that store.

They said it was just some kid with a stolen car and he was pissed off because they wouldn't, you know, honor a stolen credit card. I forget exactly what the story was, but it had nothing to do with the probably peaceful rally down the street. And I immediately realized, like, I've been duped. I went along with this narrative and I deleted it and corrected it and made it clear that that wasn't what was going on in that video. But it just became immediately obvious to me how easy it is for people who have nefarious intentions to twist the narrative. Well, anybody and everybody can get their message out, you know, like nobody's business. You know, so. definitely um okay i'm trying to think of the other uh high profile cases that we've really been

seen recently or just things that that people out there need to avoid like that the going back to mba young boy the fact that he was already on probation and that he wasn't allowed to be handling firearms but that he still did in that music video but then they were able they only were able to prove it by confiscating the memory card from the filmer at the music video shoot that was pretty shocking to me because if you're an NBA young boy on the streets you are maybe worth, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 million dollars a year

like you could, from touring and putting out music, he's like the highest streamed artists on YouTube and on a lot of streaming services and stuff like that. The fact that that isn't enough for him to just chill and just, you know, behave reasonably, that's

pretty troubling because that to me says that the allure of projecting this gangster image, which he, you you know, seems to actually be of that ilk. The allure of that is so intense that even somebody like him could get into a situation where he's basically going to maybe lose five or ten years of his freedom just from wanting to have guns in a video and look cool. What did you talk about about the development of the young male brain?

The young male brain is not fully developed until 24 or 25. Right. Right? And what is he like 21? Yeah, he's super young. He's super young. He's super young. like seven or eight kids too. And so he's got like seven kids.

And he and didn't, I think his dad went to prison or was killed very early on, not part of his life. The thing about it is, is that he's got, he was on supervised release, right? And if there's any time where you need to be minding the store is when you got a federal judge that's kind of overseeing. you. And then he gets busted with another firearm. So he's got another firearm case in addition to the one he's got in, in, uh,

Baton Rouge. So you've got that issue of the young male brain being so, um, how do you want to put it? It's, uh, it's not developed, but it's also so, uh,

susceptible to outside influence. So he's trying to, uh, be, bad in his community or his circle of friends and so instead of thinking about what is good for me

I'm going to do what puts me in the position of power or or admiration or whatever I got to do to get the approval of this group and I saw a video of young boys I think his brother or cousin I forget

3 3 where he was talking about why young boy behaves the way he does and it's basically like he's the one with the money if you're on his team if you're a manager if you're somebody who's involved in that yes obviously it would seem imperative to you to make sure that he doesn't have guns in his possession and that he's moving the correct way and stuff but when you're the guy who's controlling the money and he can easily can you if you are a little bit too disruptive in terms of what he wants to do he's going to fire you he's going to behave like this this prince that he imagines himself to be and he's going to he's going to remove anybody who

to challenge them. But haven't we seen that song before? I mean, we saw it with Elvis, we saw it with Michael Jackson, we saw it with Prince. We see it with people who have a lot of money and who, you know, are going to do their own thing. And

no matter how destructive it is to themselves, you don't like it, you can fucking leave. And, you know, it's a tragedy. And where is he now? Locked up and probably staying locked up for a very long time if we had to guess, yeah. Which is a real shame. Because I remember, like, young boy had been locked up for a while on something unrelated, or something related, I'm sure.

But then he got out, and we were all so happy a couple years ago. Like, wow, he got so lucky to be back on the street after all this stuff hanging over his head. And then to see him fuck it up again was just kind of like, wow. Like, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. If you have so little self-control or you're so not interested in staying out of prison, then what could we really even expect of you? If you were to get another chance on this, what are the odds that you're not going to fuck it up? But I do see that a lot.

And, you know, where, you know, popular to pop your opinion, I don't like repeat clients. I love being able to work my magic and give somebody their life back and then having them thank you. And, okay, I dodge that bullet, you know. But sometimes, like you said, if they had their shit together, they wouldn't be in that position in the first place. Are the gun laws in Minneapolis quite restrictive or are they a little bit more lax? Well, if you get busted with a firearm and you have a prior felony, it's a five-year mandatory minimum. Wow. Both state and federal.

If you use that in a crime of violence, it's a seven-year consecutive mandatory minimum federally. If somebody dies, you can be looking at life, even if you didn't use the firearm. Right. So it's not terrible in Minneapolis compared to other places, but it's still pretty restrictive. But we don't have, you don't have to have a, you know, you can own a firearm. It's not like New York where you have to have a permit to even purchase a firearm. You can have pretty much whatever you want. And it's so bizarre how states have such different laws.

Like I was interviewing this rapper, ESTG the other day, and he's from Louisville. And he was letting me know that in his neighborhood, it is, crazy how common it is everybody because you can just have an open carry firearm pretty much anybody so he said that in his neighborhood people are just walking around machine guns where is that in louisville oh kentucky right and uh he just described it as you know just pretty surreal and for somebody like me who you know if i saw a guy walking on the street with a machine gun i would you know probably drive off the side of the fucking road i'd be so surprised yeah but meanwhile in a lot of these more country areas that's considered totally normal And, I mean, it's pretty bizarre when you think, like, New York has the gun laws that it has,

but you could, you know, hop in a car and drive from Louisville and be there. And, you know, maybe it's pretty far. Probably like 10, 15, 20 hours. But, I mean, drive right on in. And then you've got this weapon that you were totally fine to have there. But then you're in New York. And it's probably going to get you, like, 10 years in jail. Yeah.

We sell too many guns in this country. But they're a necessary evil. Yeah. could you imagine a world without, or an America, without, with much, much more restrictive gun laws? Do you think that's impossible? Yes. Absolutely. There's just no way.

Right. I was looking at Fabio Forrin as a rapper, right, a case where basically he, I believe it happened in New Jersey. He's from New York City, but he went from his apartment to an ATM. And when he went to the ATM, he parked in a spot that he wasn't allowed to be parked in, and went to withdraw some money and then he comes back out and I believe the police officers were giving him a ticket or something

and he tried to walk away from them and I believe they followed him and then at some point during this a pistol fell out of his pocket and now he's got a whole crazy-ass case related to him just having a gun on him when I saw this I was a little conflicted

because on one hand I'm thinking well you're a famous rapper and realistically you probably just fucked your whole life up and you're going to go to jail for years because that's what the gun laws are like there. On the other hand, I'm thinking, you're a famous rapper, and if you had gotten shot that night and got robbed or whatever, kidnapped, I would have been thinking, well, you should have had a fucking gun on you

because realistically, you're not safe in that area without a gun on you, given your profile. And there's really, like, how do we resolve those two things? Because if it were just legal for him to be rolling around in Jersey with a pistol, then we're going to have a very, very different scenario and probably a shitload more gun. violence. I mean, it's hard for me to even think of like what the ideal situation would be in a lot of these states where they want less guns. But then meanwhile, that involves, you know,

prosecuting young men who are basically just trying to protect themselves. Better to be packing than lacking. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I think I would rather get caught with it than without it. Yeah. Yeah, better to be judged by 12 and carried by six. See, you've been listening to a lot of these rap songs, haven't you? A little bit. But what do you think like the ideal resolution would be like, if you could be in charge of the gun laws where you live, what would your ideal scenario be? Get licensed.

Why not? I mean, if somebody can qualify and they can use it responsibly, you have to have a license to drive a car. Right. You know? But there's so many fucking guns on the street that only the law abiding would be licensed or whatever. You know, and I have guns, and I don't use them, but, you know, I've got them in case I do. And in case I need it, I don't have the answer, you know.

I just, I wish we had less guns. I wish we had less need for guns. But there's just so much violence out there that I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Yeah, and I saw a video of these two guys in England the other day. If you follow me on Twitter, you probably saw this and you probably know exactly what I'm talking about, but they were basically attacking each other with these massive blades, these two guys fighting on the street

and the one guy is just so sliced up. And it was the craziest-looking shit. They had the most high-tech knives I've ever seen. And this just really occurred to me of like, this would be probably extremely normal if they did somehow manage to get rid of every gun in America. Well, one of the things I have reacted to are some UK drill music.

And that's what they talk about in there because they don't have guns in England. But they stab each other left and right. Right. It's much more personal. And people, I've gotten contacted by a lot of people from England and are Great Britain. And they talk about how all up close and personally. There's no drive-bys.

Everything is like, you know, right in your face. Shoving a knife in somebody's stomach is pretty intimate experience, I'm assuming. I'm a lover, not a fighter. For sure. Yeah, but I think when you look at England, they approach gangster rap and all that, like quite definitely because a lot of those videos, when they're really gang-related and they have threat cinnamon shit, they get pulled off of YouTube.

They're pretty aggressive with all that. You know, if you were to have a gun in your video, I feel like the cops are showing up at your house with the fucking SWAT team equivalent in no time. They also cover their faces. Tons of those. I interviewed, I think, 15 rappers in England, and I think four of them had masks on. They wore the mask all the time. And it wasn't because they're trying to, like, avoid their enemies knowing.

knowing who they are so much as they just don't want the pressure of the police knowing who they are and whatnot. Right. Which is a, we've got a couple American rappers who choose to wear masks, but it's not usually for the same reason, I don't believe. No, they like to be out there and smoking their ops. How do you feel about that? Have you smoked ops yet? I don't have any ops. Everybody loves me. Okay. That's good. At least I think so.

Has it been awkward for your family at all? Like when you're going to the Olive Garden, grab something to eat, and you got, you know, a couple of seedy little teenagers in the corner being like, that's Bruce. You know what? I actually came out of a Target store the other day. Right. And I'm pushing my grocery car because I do my own grocery shop. And I was in this black kid, this young kid is just waiting for me outside. He goes, hey man, hey man, are you Bruce?

You Bruce Rivers? I said, yeah. He goes, hey, my buddies and I watch your videos all the time. Can we get a selfie? I thought it was really cool. Yeah. It was fun. My son was down in Florida at a bar,

and he ran into a couple people that knew who I was. So it's actually getting traction all over the country. Yeah, that's awesome. That was actually a weird one when I was thinking about asking you to do the interview. I thought for a moment, like, people are going to know who this guy is? And I'm like, yeah, I think they definitely are going to know who he is. Well, if you look at how many views we've had since we started, it's nearing 100 million views. Pretty crazy.

In just a few months. Does it make you want to quit being a lawyer? and just be a YouTuber full-time? No, because what do you think? What are you going to talk about? What do you think? Exactly. Exactly.

Why do you think I have any credibility on YouTube at all? It's because of what I do for work. It'd be cool if you were like a real vlogger, though. Like if you had the camera and you were just in court, sort of like doing a little selfie clip with the judge and all that. Or maybe I just have those glasses with the camera and I can... That would be such a compelling YouTube channel. A lawyer who just literally makes a video at the end of the day or at the end of the week

and tells you about the case that he's trying to. tried and you know it's got to be a pretty draining emotional job at times right it is but you know i i can't i can't tell you how rewarding it is you get some people that uh you know that obviously are guilty and some that aren't right and when you um when you actually go through a trial and you win there's just fucking no greater high there's just no greater high how is the low when you lose well if somebody's got to go to jail make sure it's the client right So you've never ended up any sort of predicaments in terms of your own status legally do this? No, no, no.

But, you know, as far as the lows, yeah, you get bummed out, especially if you thought you should have won a case. Right. Sometimes there's nothing you can do, you know, and you have to go through a trial just because there's no offer on the table, and you know you're going to get your ass handed to you just have to do it. Right. That's not so bad. It's when you really thought you should have won a case, and you question everything you did or didn't do, you know. And how often do you have a client?

come in and tell you about the situation and in your head you're like this guy does not have a very good chance at all I'm pretty sure you're guilty but you know as a defense lawyer you have to have the opinion that everybody deserves a defense and everybody deserves a fair trial

but is it kind of defeating going into it when you're sort of like intentionally I don't want to like act as if you're doing anything unethical or whatever but you're sort of your job is to basically obscure reality well it all depends because you can have a case where those are the facts.

You know, they're just, you're fucked. So then it becomes not whether or not you're guilty becomes what do we do from here. Right. And so like in certain cases you send them to therapy or, you know, get an evaluation for drugs or sex or whatever the case may be.

And sometimes there's just just nothing you can do. But if you can keep them out of prison but they're still guilty, you know, that's still, you know, you know, that's a win. That's a win. That's true. You mentioned that you had one client to shut up off, fucked up about heroin. How big of a factor did drugs quite often play in these situations? Like, do you frequently end up defending people where it's like basically impossible

for you to understand why they did what they did, but they were off drugs? And that's like pretty much the only explanation? Yeah, all the time. All the time. That's like kind of the root of a lot of societal ills, huh? Well, it depends on what drugs they're on. And, you know, I was trying to murder case once, and I asked this guy, so what was the mood like in the van? And, you know, they're trying to say my client was doing a vendetta and he was going to exact revenge. I told you, man, it's laid back. We're smoking weed, you know? So you don't really get many violent cases from weed.

Right. When you have somebody that's on a lot of prescription stuff or meth, there is completely irrational. super demanding. You know, when you have other kinds of cases, you know, like people who have like criminal sexual conduct issues, those are probably the easiest people to deal with because they don't want to deal with anything and they don't talk to you. You know, they just kind of high, okay, they'll talk to you, but I mean, they don't bug you, you know. Very different personality types between the different crimes that you end up dealing with. Big time. Wow, that's interesting.

Yeah, there's a lot of rappers who rap about either themselves. or people they know doing, you know, Molly when they go out to, you know, do a drill and shoot somebody, basically. That's pretty shocking to me. As somebody who has done Molly before is, like, a very, you know, euphoric, fun experience. Very hard for me to imagine taking somebody's life when you're in that state of mind. But, I mean, I guess some people just find some comfort in being totally out of their mind when doing something like that. Well, maybe that's what they have to do in order to get to that place. Yeah.

And I think also maybe if you took some drug like that while you're aware that you're going to commit a violent act, then maybe the way it's going to affect your brain isn't going to be the same as when you're doing it for just pleasure. But what is that really? It doesn't say great things about your intentions. No, it doesn't. It says it's premeditated, which is murder one. Definitely. The Y&W. Melly case, have you spent much time looking at that? We looked at that a little bit, yeah.

I think that was one of our first videos, actually. Right. He's a friend of ours and somebody who, when I spoke to him on the phone, I mean, you would swear this guy's getting out tomorrow. His attitude is so positive. I mean, if I had been sitting in prison for two years, I mean, even if I thought there was a 90% chance that I'm getting out, I'm still not going to be in this great of a mood. But one of the things that really stood out to me about that one is that the cell phone records, the GPS in the car, these are being heavily weaponized against him to paint this picture of his alleged crimes going down a specific way.

Is that the kind of stuff that's sort of constantly coming across your table that these things that the police are using to prove the people are guilty? The technology is the death nail for a lot of cases. Right. Your cell phone GPS now can track you within like a very, very exact position. Right. And then also photographs. Photographs have metadata on them that have GPS locations on them. Right.

So when you take your photograph with your cell phone, that's got GPS on it. And then you've got tower records, you know, just and then the social media stuff. All that technology is they can really paint a good picture of where you were or when. It was tough enough on criminals when it was just DNA. Right. That was a big deal. Now with all the GPS and the phone data and everything, it feels like, you know, if you have problems with, like, it occurs to me that if you were to want to kill somebody, the only way

you're going to be able to really get away with it is if you're, if you never become a suspect. Right. Because as soon as you're a suspect and they start looking through your phones, it's just going to be almost impossible for you to explain away why you, you, why your phone was in that area? Or even if you did leave your phone at home, okay, then you have the car, you have the GPS. And even if you leave the phone at home, it's like, why the fuck did you leave your phone at home for the first time in your entire life? See, better to get it on a bus and put some tape on your phone, put it under a seat on a bus. You go do the crime.

Your bus is going around. And so the phone's somewhere else, and you go back to the bus and pick up your phone. Have you ever heard of someone doing this? No. I just made that. I just made that up. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty bold right there.

I'm trying to imagine being in the cop shoes there and being like, so you just got on a bus for a couple hours and just sort of went around in circles? Interesting. I saw you're thinking about starting a Twitch channel. Do you have any plans for this business going forward? Do you think of it as a business at all? Is the money even consequential compared to your day job? Oh, we're doing pretty well, actually. I'm shocked at how much we're making.

And, you know, the Twitch thing, you know, I don't know much about Twitch, but Michael's the brains of the operation. So I think once we get up to like half a million subscribers, we'll probably try something like that. Ward, do you, are you, you were saying that you have more cases that you're going to be dealing with in, like, more cases that you're taking on now that COVID is ending? Do you think that that's in any way going to cut down on the amount of time you're able to put into doing this? Oh, not really, because we do it on the weekends. It's not, it's not a full-time thing.

Right. We, yeah, my trial schedule coming up is absolutely crazy. I've got some big trials coming up. and so I'm just going to have to let these things shake out because the courts are so backed up and they're dealing with in custody felonies first but this is just something with the two of us are doing

and it's just the two of us. It's just my son and I, he does all the editing and he selects all the music and then we kind of work on stuff together and it's a great project for the two of us to work together. It brings us, you know, we have regular contact is it brings us close. Definitely. Have you gotten a client yet who knew about you from the YouTube

channel first? Yeah, several. Really? Yeah. Wow. So they're going out of their way to contact you, so it's pretty good advertising. Even if you weren't making money off it, it would be worth doing another guy on. Oh yeah. I've actually made more money from that than the channel itself. Wow. And we've been doing pretty well with the channel. Yeah, that's great. Are there any other, like, lawyers that you can imagine yourself collaborating with in this space? Because I remember when the 6-9 case was going down, there was some lawyer that was like making Instagram videos and ending up on World Star over and over. And that was, I think, the first time just offering his opinion on the case and everything and going viral with it. And that sort of occurred to me like, oh, like the media landscape is kind of thirsty for people who can speak authoritatively about what's going on in these cases.

Well, I don't know that I'd collaborate necessarily with another lawyer. I mean, my office partner is probably one of the, he was the president of the American Board of Criminal Lawyers. he is the best of the best of the best that ever was and he's like in his 80s but he's and he's still trying cases like he's a young man no one told him to to quit yet and and then we've got a I've had a little bit of a relationship with Efflee Bailey he came out he I had him speak to a group I was the president for the national board of a National Academy of certified trial lawyers in Minnesota and I brought Flee Bailey out and we've kind of established a little relationship there so that

That's something we could probably work with. But one of the things I'd like to do is, like, this is kind of nice, you know, a little long-form interview, a little back-and-forth. There's a, like, there's a guy that spent, you know, I can't, he was just on Ari Melburgh's show, and he spent 20 years in solitary. I mean, he was tortured, basically. Wow. And so bringing light to stuff like that from the Inespins Project, you know. and then mix in a little bit of the pop culture stuff too. Yeah, because I feel like you have to do the pop culture stuff or the drill stuff or whatever

because that's what people are going to really pay attention to. And I think that your channel definitely does provide some value to young people, at least in the fact, like, you know, if somebody, like the viral videos that you've done about the who I smoke stuff and everything like that, if you're pointing out things that might not be obvious to a 15 or a 16 year old kid in terms of how you should carry yourself and what you should not say publicly. I think that you're providing a big benefit to those people. But, yeah, I mean, that could be a way that you'd really be able to use your channel for some societal good

as if you were able to, like, call attention to, you know, injustices, basically, that are being carried out in this whole realm. That whole, that who I smoked, that's over a million views already. And that's only, like, about a month and a half old. Right. And that was like, I mean, that was one of the biggest, craziest, you know, beefs that we've seen play out in music. in recent memory, at least, you know, relatively unpopular artists, not unpopular, but not super well-known. And then these songs become giant cultural milestones.

It's kind of crazy. I did have one of them reach out to me about playing golf. Who was it, Spin a Benz? I think so. It was one of them. Do you play golf? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.

Yeah. I slowly feel, I'm beginning to feel like my inability to play golf or the fact that I have no idea to play golf might damage me as my life goes on. because that seems like that's just what successful guys tend to do. They go out and play golf together. It never hurt me. Okay, so in terms of the future from here, what do you want people to keep an eye out for?

What are you looking forward to? Anything that people need to know about? Well, we're going to be following this Potter case. That's that Dante Wright. Oh, yeah. Right case. That's the one where she confused the taser with her 9-millimeter and shot and killed him.

So we're going to follow that. We've got a couple more videos coming out this week, actually. But we're going to be doing more of the same and probably doing some reactions to some of the higher profile cases that Benjamin Crump is chasing around the country. Oh, yeah? Who's Benjamin Crump?

He's the civil rights lawyer that's raking in all the Benjamin's from all these different civil rights cases. with these guys. Oh, nice. I wanted to ask this, too, is for people out of there who have ever even thought about becoming a lawyer, I think you quite frequently hear it characterized as, like, one of the worst jobs, one of the, you know, worst experience jobs.

You end up doing just shitloads of paperwork, and it takes so many years before you even are able to get into any kind of position. What's your experience with it? It seems like you find it pretty fulfilling. Here's the thing. I slept through high school. I slept through college. Right.

I slept through part of law school, but I loved law school. And I got a business degree in my undergrad. Then when I went to law school, it just clicked. And I really liked it. And then all of a sudden I became a lawyer. You know, the work is really, really awesome. It's rewarding. As a criminal lawyer, you're not reading contracts.

You're not reading dry bullshit. You're reading stuff about a coroner's report. Okay, you know, it's a science project. Let's figure out how this guy died. Right. Or you're reading a police report, you know, okay, where can I find out how this cop is full of shit? How can I, you know, poke a hole in his story? Right.

You know, and so from that end, it isn't just like going through paperwork. It's, and then you're in court. You know, there's a lot of different dynamics. So I would highly disagree with whoever said that. Right. But it seems like you probably are working in one of the more exciting parts of law. Like the people that have to sit around and review contracts all day, that's probably... I'm in the movie.

Yeah, exactly. Wow, Bruce. It's been very nice talking to, very informative. And I encourage everybody out there, you know, if you've got some time hanging over your head, get in touch. Nice to Rivers. Thank you very much. Appreciate you, man. No Jumber.

Coolest podcast and World Check us on YouTube, SoundCloud, iTunes. Like, comment, and subscribe. nojumber.com if you want to support and we will be live Friday listening to your music. Thank you, Bruce. Appreciate you. Thank you much.