The Finn McKenty Interview: Starting The Punk Rock MBA, Racism in Metal & More
00:00No Jumper, coolest podcast in the world.And today I'm here with Finn of the punk rock MBA.And I have a challenge for you.Try to explain what you do in a concise fashion so that all the super casual viewers right nowwho aren't planning to stick around might latch onto this and want to see it through.I make videos about music and alternative culture where I unpack and try to explain trends,for example, why a given genre or a band was or wasn't popular.You know, for example, you know, like mall emo of the 2000s, that all blew up in, you know, 2008 or whatever.
00:33Then by 2015 or 16, it was dead.What happened?Those are the kind of videos that I make.Definitely.I got into your shit because I think I was trying to just explain Earth Crisis to someone.And, you know, I have a hard time with that.That's such a strange feeling.And I bet that you feel this way from time to time where I feel like I can't explain my youth to the people that I interact with on a regular.
00:56the basis because they don't know about straight edge, they don't know about hardcore, they don't know aboutveganism, or at least in the context that it existed then. And somehow your channel has like allowedme to not only be able to explain that maybe to other people, but also like watch, I just watcha video about like the death of sky. And I very much like lived through the death of sky, but I neverreally examined it or really thought about like why that genre just fell off in such a spectacularfashion. Yeah. So like Earth Crisis, you know, how do you explain that to somebody who wasn't there?Like, imagine if Pantara wrote songs about how cool vegan terrorists were.It's a weird thing.
01:31Like, I told somebody the other day, I'm like, yeah, I was vegan all through high school.And they're kind of like, what?Like, back then in the 90s?And I'm like, yeah.And they're like, why?I'm like, well, I just thought it was the coolest thing in the world because of this band.I'm going to be honest with you.I would have told you at the time that it was about animals and, you know, whatever.
01:48But, yeah.That's why I stopped being vegan because I realized I was just doing it to be trendy.It's not that I didn't or don't still agree with it.I get it. But to be honest, I was just doing it because it was the cool thing to do. And that's a pretty dumb reason to be vegan.How many years do you put in? Five. And then I was vegetarian for a few years before that too. So like 14 to 21 or so.Do you look back at that as kind of like, you know, your youthful, idealistic self that has now been replaced by your sort of cynical self that doesn't expect the world to get any better?I don't want to put it that way.I don't think anything that I thought was wrong.
02:28Well, for one, I also wasn't healthy.I was like a junk food vegan because back then it was way, like,now you go to Panera and you can see what's gluten-free and vegan.And, you know, back in 1996,really if you're, unless you wanted to cook for yourself,you're going to either eat junk food or nothing.And so I was eating a lot of junk food and, you know,that's just not healthy.
02:48So I got all fat and it just wasn't good for me.Yeah, when I look back on it,I remember just going out,riding bikes and it taking forever for me to like feel healed up after like a strenuous day like that thatwas what really turned me off to it was I was just eating so much goddamn like you know boca burgers andprotein powders and just really trying to like fix whatever it was that like clearly was not givingme the stamina that a lot of my friends had and at a certain point I was just like fuck this and uhfelt way better after so to me it never really I don't know I'm not sure how how popular veganism is these
03:22days, although I've seen, like, I was seeing an article about this fucking restaurant in New York thatdecided they're switching to a vegan menu. And I don't know, apparently this restaurant doing it,it just was a really fucking big deal. And people were just freaking the fuck out about it.Like, like, I don't know. Do you see it as being on the rise?Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the fact that like impossible, what is impossible and beyond areworth like tens of billions of dollars. Oh, they are. Huh? Yeah. They're massive, like,probably way overvalued. But that's another conversation. But, you know, there is,billions and billions of dollars to be made off
03:54veganism now, which if you're vegan,you know, you should be happy about that.The part that Ifind interesting about, you know, theEarth Crisis thing is just how likesuper militant they were.You know, for anybody who doesn't know, like, they literallywrote songs, like tons of songs about
04:10like burning down animal testing labsand about their friends who, you know,were eco-terrorists who like were doingfederal time for blowingup whaling ships and stuff.But I thought that was so goddamn cool as a kid.It was cool, and, you know, to their credit, it's like obviously a little bit out there.But if you want to be about it, that's the logical conclusion of it.
04:30You know, if you think that eating meat is murder, then it is logically justified to kill somebody or, you know, in the defense of an animal.If you believe that, I'm not saying you should.But, you know, they were at least logically consistent.And, you know, I still respect that.The other thing about weird is that there's so many genres that we basically, the defining bands of those genres.are basically the ones who are the most attached to violence and murder.Like that's true of black metal for sure.That's like the prevailing narrative.
05:00When you think about like vegan straight-edge music,you go to Earth crisis because they were like the most violent,the most, who came the closest to literally endorsing burning down the McDonald's.Yeah, and certainly true of rap.Oh yeah, and especially in these days, it's like, you know,these days like you just see the audience gravitating to the realist street rappersto such an extreme degree, and it's, like, really tough to get by if you're just sort of faking it.Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think that's just human nature. We're drawn to darkness. You know, we're
05:29drawn to violence because we should be. You know, I think of everything is in terms of, like,being adaptive to being a caveman. So back then, you needed to know where the Savor Tooth Tiger wasbecause he might jump out and eat you. Less important to remember how pretty the sunset was yesterday,because that's not vital for your survival. So I think we're, you know, programmed to pay attention todarkness and violence. And it makessense evolutionarily that if there's some people out therewho are wild, violent, unpredictablepeople, your brain's going to say, pay attention
05:56to what that guy's doing because you never know,you might be next. And that's really what sucksfor Scott is that it just wasn't enough murder.I mean, there wasprobably somebody, you know.Right. It had to have been. But if you couldhave dug in on that narrative, andlike when you talked about Sky, it was always just about
06:12the dude that Gwen Stefani killed, it would just be...Right, right. I mean, you can't prove thatshe didn't. Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe you should workon that. It's true. I'll ask her people.Talk about the,okay, well, actually, let's go all the way back.Give us a sort of an overview of yourinvolvement in punk and hardcore and all
06:28this music before you actually get tothe stage of deciding to start YouTube channel.Yeah. Well, I discovered itfrom MTV back in like1989. I saw this thingabout suicidal tendencies because they werebanned from playing in L.A. for like five yearsbecause of gang violence at their show. So this
06:44would be an example of what you're talking about.And I was like, that's fucking cool.I didn't know anything about the suicidals and, you know, I didn't know anything about it other than those guys look like the people in colors and blood in blood out.I told ICP, I'm like, I basically became a fan of you guys because it was on the news that Disney took your shit off the shelves and that was like, I have to hear it.Exactly.So I saw that story about suicidal tendencies and I was like, I don't know what this is, but it's cool.And I took my birthday money and I bought their tape and that was kind of, you know, one thing led to another.and that was that.
07:18I discovered that they were, you know, part of this thing called hardcore,and then I think I get into black flag after that and circle jerks and all that kind of stuff.Then somehow or another, I think through Max and Rock and Roll,but I don't really remember.I discovered, like, hardcore, which at that time was a very different thing.I mean, punk and hardcore now kind of go hand in hand, I think.But back then, they were very, very different scenes.Really musically, very similar, but then, like, the scenes and the values were so different.
07:45And that's my recollection of as a kidis that I liked both of the bands,but I just wanted nothing to dowith like the fucking guy with the Mohawkand the studded vest.Like to me, that was the oppositeof what I was into,even though really knowing everything
07:58I know about music,it's like two ticks on the clockaway from in the whole entirety of music, you know?Yeah, exactly.I mean, I thought the Mohawk guys were coolwhen I was 12.Right.But then when I discovered that there were the Camo Shorts guys,
08:11I was like, that's way cooler.And I got into like Youth Todayand Gorilla Biscuits and Judgeand all that kind of stuff.That still remains where my heart is at in terms of like the, when I think about liking hardcore,I think about that sort of basket of bands for sure.It was a good time.I mean, it was new and there's still tons of people doing that same kind of thing.
08:30But it's a recreation of something from back then, which is fine.But I think any time that, you know, something is a recreation to me, it's less interesting.Then it's like, why would I listen to a recreation of that thing when I could just listen to the thing?I didn't have to be in hardcore for that long.for that to like kick in for me and start to be like oh fuck this next crop of bands are saying theexact same shit as the bands i was into a year and a half ago and you know i was just likeit just didn't take that long like i really like collected seven inches and shit for maybe likesix months and then i was just like this is stupid why the fuck do i own all this shit yeah well i mean
09:06now you've moved on to whatever the what do you call the the thing the condama not a bad businessto be in them way cooler than seven inches right yeah i mean you got to put some shit in the web storeAnd that was like honestly how it startedIt was just like well we all fuck with this stuffSo we might as well make someAnd just throw it in the web store and then just sort of kept goingYeah yeah I I collected records for a whileAnd then kind of the same thing I was just like
09:28Why do I need to collect these you knowEspecially after like the internet was availableAnd I could just download the stuff like why do I want a bunch of vinylLike if you ever moved with boxes of records thereLike fucking a black holeIt's like so unbelievably denseThe last thing you want is a bunch of vinylif you're moving around a lot, which, you know, every hardcore kid moves every six months.
09:49You know, want to drag your shit around.But so do you, did you ever get really into the collecting,or do you feel like you have any reason to have any, like, physical copy of anything?No.Like, you don't do that all anymore?Me neither.I don't own a single record now.I have one CD that a friend of mine gave me years ago, and that's it.
10:12I'm just not into physical stuff.We were getting brunch the other day, and there was a fucking CD store right next door,and it seemed like it was like a relatively popular, like, mom-and-pop type CD store in Burbank.I was thinking about going in and just thinking about how much joy I got from going to Newberry Comics as a kid and shit.And I was just like, there's really nothing in there for me because even, like, if I see a CD that I want,it's like I'm literally going to take a picture of it and just remember to look it up on iTunes later.And, you know, it sucks that.That's kind of been removed.
10:43They used to love going to Barnes & Noble.And still when I see Barnes & Noble, there's a little piece of my brain that's like, oh, I'm going to go in there.And I have to look at the magazine section for like five seconds before I'm like, never mind.This is not what I used to get from this.Yeah, I do the same thing with Barnes & Noble.I see all the books.I get excited about it.Then I just go look it up on my phone and buy the Kindle version on Amazon because I don't want a pile of books in my house.
11:04Right.It's interesting that that sort of like consumerist collective, you know, collecting sort of thing goes hand in hand with hardcore.You know, it's a very, in metal, like, all those, like, kind of rock genres.They're into, very, very into, like, collecting shit.But then also charging nothing for it.Right.Like, I was, like, when I figured out how much it cost to make a seven-inch,and I'm like, you guys are selling this for $4?
11:24It's, like, the worst business I've ever served in my life.$4.That's a King's Ransom.How much do they go for?$3.$3.Yeah, man, you can't charge $4.You get kicked out of the scene for that.
11:33And then I would look through the vinyl section at the record store and realized, like,oh, there's a bright-ey's record for, like, $20.That like this is a pretty close genre, but then they clearly have no issue with just charging whatever for it.Right.Yeah, there's a lot of that kind of small time thinking and less than hardcore, definitely more in punk.And that's definitely something I never resonated with.Right.I used to argue with my friends who were in bands that they should sell their shirts for more.
12:03And they just could not, like, it was just impossible to like make any sort of ground on that.And like, these people want to support you.Or like you could print on better shirts.Like all these hardcore wins I knew were printing on the worst shirts ever and I'm like this is why you walk into a show and you guys all look like a bunch of fucking scrubs is because the shirts all suck because you guys are charging five dollars for themThe short and wide guildins or whatever is BMX like thatMm. At a certain point BMX riders realized that because they're hunched over the whole time that they need longer shirtsSo the American Apparel summer shirt around like 2008 2009 became the shirt and then they switched it up so all of a sudden the fifthIt was completely different.
12:42And a lot of those old videos from that era,the dudes look so ridiculous.Because they would also, like when your shirt was wet,you would kind of like put your foot on itand on the ground and pull on it.So it would be stretched out even longer.And I mean, it just looked insane.Quite a look.
12:57Yeah.Well, are they very dogmatic as far as, you know,I did some work in like skateboarding and stuff years agoand it was horrible because the second you make a fucking dime,everyone comes out of the woodwork to hate on you.Is it like that in BMX also?Kind of, except nobody makes any money.there's not that much to be mad about. But I mean, I saw that transition so much from when I, in like,
13:16you know, the late 90s and stuff and like hardcore was the, the choice of music and like indie rock andemo and all that shit. And like there was this sort of like dream of being in your 20s and you justsort of ride your bike every day at the skate park and that's your lifestyle. And I just don't seeguys in their 20s really gravitating towards that in the same way. Like I see BMX as being such ayouth focused thing. And then like people just are kind of out of it.by 18 and it just like that dream and the culture associated with it in a lot of ways I kind of blamewhat I did by taking like you know creating a BMX blog and sort of putting all that information therebecause I feel like before that it was all this shared collective community wide moments when videos
13:57would come out or magazines and there was this shared culture and then all of a sudden the internetcomes out and there's a period of time where like everybody's looking at the same website so theysort of all fit into that but now I feel like BMX is so fractured with just like differentYouTube channels or different like influencers that people pay attention to. And there's there's justalmost nothing shared as a community. And that's kind of like really broken the culture to me.Right. So it's like the same as skateboarding when like, you know, plan B would put out a new video.And for six months, that's what everyone was talking about. And like, did you see this part?Right. And now it's all Instagram clips. And there are like big moments in terms of videos.
14:34But what I will say about skateboarding is that it's just still so much. It's a real business, you know.like it's actually like the big brands do volume and like you see the brand support thrasher so they stilllike even if not everybody sees thrasher and shit it still exists and it's this important shared collectivething that people all can sort of have as this token of what the the soul of skateboarding is and bmxhas just kind of gotten so small and fracture that i just don't feel like that exists in the same wayi wonder why bmx didn't get more popular because i remember when i was a little kid like when thatmovie rad came out right like bmx was pretty cool and you know by like the early 90s skateboarding was like500 times bigger and cooler and BMX at least to me seemed like it was had kind of fallen off i wonder why
15:23that is i mean i think a lot of it is the fact that it's just way harder to enter into like a bmx bikethat then in particular was really heavy and really expensive and skateboarders boards in comparisoni mean you could pick it up and bring it into the mall with you it's like a hundred bucks you can buy it at themall. It's not like this complicatedthing where you have to be replacing all these partsand stuff. Have to like be a mechanic.Yes. Being a part-timemechanic was a huge part of riding bikes back
15:49in that day. And even before mytime, it was even worse from what I hear. But like withskateboarding, it's just much more casualand like all of the pop culture looksthat sort of shined uponskateboarding, whether it was likeTony Hawk becoming everything orthe Tony Hawk video game series taken off
16:05or Rob Deardick or Jackassand all of these things. Like,they were just all skateboarding moments.You know, Ryan Shekler is a skateboarder.He just didn't have an equivalent of like,and the times where I've seen BMX start to like peak againis oftentimes when there is a YouTube influencer type personwho comes out in BMX and like gathers a big ass fan base
16:26that actually goes outside of BMX and then,but the thing is that those people always fucking end up basically getting out of itbecause it's such like an unwelcoming or sort of niche scene.You know, I've seen that happen multiple times.and I'm pretty much an example of it.The story of every subculture.You know, you think it's cool,and then you're new kid,
16:44and you get close to it,and then it's a fucking asshole to you.And unless you're like a real diehardthat's willing to put up with the hazing,you know,or you get some sort of like cool older brotherthat, like, shepherds you into it,then you're like, you know what, fuck this.
16:57I'm going to go back to playing video gameslike the other kids.And there being no money in itis like a self-fulfilling prophecybecause then the people, like,I would see my,the people I was looking upwho were, you know, pros when they're like 18, 19, 20, whatever.
17:12And then all of a sudden they're like 21, 22,and they become a construction worker.Right.And that wouldn't happen in skateboarding because there actually was enough of anindustry that if you're really great and you were a productive pro,then the industry would find a way to like take care of you.But for all these guys, you know, to get 50 grand a year being a construction worker,it was just like, am I going to ride BMX and be fucking destitute for my whole life?
17:34Right.It's just kind of stuff.Yeah.Does it fuck up your body as bad as, like,motorcross and stuff. I mean, it can't be as bad as motorcross.When you go to a motocross event, you see so many motherfuckers in wheelchairs and shit because like it's really depressing and they're like eating out of tubes and shit.And it's like BMX is not really like that.But I will say that there's been a bunch of the biggest most marketable or like legendary BMX riders have had really tragic fates.
17:58Whether it's like falling and crashing and never being able to really ride again, Dave Mirren killed himself.There's a bunch of other fucking BMX legends of his era who killed themselves.like the concussions and shitwere so gnarly too that there's peoplewho are legendary BMX prosfrom the 80s and 90s who I've met thembefore and the kids watching at homehave no idea but they're fucked
18:21Oh I'm sure I mean that CTE is realand decades of slammingyou know on concreteAnd inventing all these tricks on these shitty ass bikes back thenand just smashing your head into the fucking ground over and overWhat a way to earn a meager livingOkay, nothing about meSo how did you start to look at
18:37like did you join a band or like what was your fandom like through high school and and the interestingthing about you is that you instead of sort of burrowing into one niche you seem like you always had sort ofan expansive interest in uh aggressive music in general or music in general yeah i mean i i started i was in a rapbefore i knew what like hardcore was i discovered go m tv raps and i was like nine so i was into likeyou know rock kim and big daddy cane and epmd and you know all that kind of stuff of the mid 80sand then when easy e and then w a came out i thought it was evenand cooler because of exactly what we talked about.You know, they were sort of the first people to be like really present themselves as like
19:15violent, dangerous, scary people.And as an 11 year old, I thought that was super cool.So, you know, I was into all that stuff too.And yeah, I mean, I kind of have always been into just anything interesting.I was never in a band or, I mean, it was in like just shitty local bands and stuff, but neverlike a real band.I never really wanted to be necessarily because I've always been more interested in,like documenting it than I am doing it myself.
19:41And I've always like been into my career outside of music.And being in a touring band, you know, that that has to be your whole life.So I've always just had other priorities aside from that.So were you doing creative stuff?Were you writing and how did you plan on being a documentarian of the culture?Well, I didn't plan it.I just did it.Yeah, I just started doing it.
20:02I mean, back then I, when I was like 15 or whatever, I started doing fanzines,which for anybody listening who doesn't,know what that is. It's like a DIY magazine that you would, you know, cut and paste yourselfand then photocopy it, you know, go to your friend's dad's office or something when he's not thereand steal a bunch of copies and then you hand it out your friends or sell it through the mail,which is what I did. I sold a few thousand of them through the mail by the time I was like 19or 20, which, you know, in hindsight is like actually harder than anything I've done on YouTubebecause YouTube has that growth engine built into it. If you want to sell a zine, you've got a pile of them
20:35in your basement and it's like, what do you get to?to do with it now. How were you selling them primarily? There was a zine back then calledMaximum Rock and Roll, which I think is still around. I think didn't it come out on the news thatthey got rid of it recently or something? Oh, maybe. I don't know. I used to look at that thingtoo, and I would read album reviews of these punk albums, and I would just read 10 reviews in a row,and I'd be like, these people are having an impossible task here of making these bands soundlike they don't sound exactly the same. Right. Yeah, I did the same thing. But if you sent themsomething they would review it like records or zines the the zine section was always smaller than the
21:10record section so it's easier to get noticed so i would send them my zines and i don't know how manypeople read max and rock and roll but every time they reviewed one i would get a couple hundred orders forit and you know make pen pals and all that shit and then i would also like cut out i made little likeflyers uh and every time i sent out an order or letter to somebody i would include a bunch offlyers from my zine in the envelope and say please share this you know same thing as like aSoundCloud repost, basically.So then they would spread that for me, and that's how I did it.And I sold a few thousand of them.
21:41And then the Internet started to become more viable, you know, by like the late 90s, early 2000s.And so I started doing stuff on the Internet instead.I don't have any attachment to print.I just want to get the stuff out there.And if I can do it on the Internet, that's great.So I started doing that, and I did blogs well into the 2000s.And, you know, I just always, I'm just the sort of person that if I see something interesting,I want to talk about it, and I'm going to do that
22:06in a magazine or a blog or YouTubeor whatever format is happeningat the moment. It's crazy becausewhen I look back at the time I spentgoing to shows and shit, I feel like a lot of the peoplethat I went to shows with were basically like professionalfriend collectors.That was just a big part of hardcore.
22:22It's like, oh yeah, I know that band.Like the drummer's cool as fuck.Right. And when I think about you likemaking 3,000 pen palsfrom selling these copies, it reallylike that scene, especially atthat time it really felt like you had like a personal relationship with everybody that you wereputting that out to and it must be like contrast to that to having 300,000 YouTube subscribers where
22:45you know even just the comment section on one video might be almost too much to to consumeon some of it. I still read all of them for that same reason because I know that maybe I can't dothat forever. I mean if I keep growing then maybe I can't but I still think of it the same way youknow it's it's a conversation to me it's not I'm not one of these people you know a lot ofpeople do post and ghost they just post their shit and then they're out of there whichtotally cool I understand that that may be a good idea for your mental health but I still think ofit that way as like I want to get to know people and I want to have a conversation so I read allthose I read all my DMs you know it's impossible to reply to everything but I read all of it
23:22for that reason because you know I don't understand how anybody can like stay on top of what'shappening if you're not reading that stuff that's the reason why I know aboutthings is because I see 50 people in my comments mention some artist and I go, hmm, I bettercheck that out.Right.Or I almost never rewatch a full interview of mine, but I'll read the comments on everysingle one.And that's basically how I get to relive what was notable about that interview.
23:48The stuff that I said that people didn't like, the stuff that was boring, the stuffthat, you know, I could spend a full hour sitting there and rewatching the whole thing, which wouldbe like torturous for me.But it doesn't matter what you think of it.It matters what they think.And that's why.if you have 50 comments telling you that you sound like an assholeeven if you really in your heart of hearts
24:05don't think that you were being an assholeyou still have to take something from itthere has to be something about how you're presenting yourselfeven if you know like if you were taking the wrong waythen you were taking the wrong way you have to take that into accountyeah absolutely you know I mean at the end of the dayI mean I suppose you can choose to disregard comments if you wantsometimes I do you know especially lately
24:27I've just been leaning into the fact that my opinion'sare the opposite of my audiences.Like, my audience loves ska, new metal, and I fucking hate both of them.But that's okay.I mean, we don't have to like the same things, you know?We can still have a conversation.I'm not one of these people that if you like different shit than me, then I don't,then we can't be friends.
24:45Like, I don't give a fuck what you like or don't like.Right.I just want to have a conversation.And so I'm just kind of leaning into that.And for anybody that, you know, gets really upset that I don't like the same thingsthat they like, I guess maybe they shouldn't watch my videos then.and they should probably go work on themselves a little bitbecause you really shouldn't be that upset about what a stranger on the internet likes or doesn't like.
25:05Right.When you started doing this content,did it seem like almost kind of a really frightening task to take onbecause of the fact that hardcore and punk are really such like insular little communitiesthat don't really,I would just imagine that the average opinion of vloggers in those communities is not great?Is that wrong?That's just my assumption.
25:29I never really consider, I don't, I'm trying to put this the right way.You're not exactly Roman Atwood.Well, yeah, that too.But I don't, it's not that I don't care what people in hardcore think because I do care.It's the people who I care about, I already know.You know what I mean?Like, because hardcore is such a small world that there's a list of a couple dozen people whose opinions in hardcore I value and I already talk to them.and what some random 19-year-old
25:59in Belgium thinks of melike I said I do read all the commentsand I take them into accountbut that's not going to keep me up at nightyou know what I meanbut the thing about hardcore is thatfor sure anybody in hardcoreis at most one degree of separation away
26:15so I do watch what I say in hardcorea little bit more than I do in other genresnot because I'm scared someone's going to beat me up or something like thatit's because I don't want to be an asshole to somebodyby mistake, you know, because, I mean, I don't know the drummer of terror, but we havenine million friends in common, you know, and I know that if I said something about them,he's going to hear it, and I don't want to be a dick to him, you know?Yeah, I mean, there is a little bit of that in hardcore, at least, where it's like,
26:38oh, like, there are people who would, like, beat the fuck out of me if I say the wrong thingabout them in a video.Yeah, but I'm not, I mean, I'm not.Rap is like that also.Yeah, I'm not worried about, I mean, of all people, you've had plenty of run-ins with that,and I'm not worried about that.I don't think anybody in hardcore is going to find my house and come try to beat me up, you know?Yeah.
26:59Back on the internet, the early days of the internet, it felt like in hardcore, that was a very real possibility, though.Or at least people were excited about the idea that.Sure.I mean, the whole B9 board.I mean, there was like, what a fucking 900-page thread of rumors and gossip and all that stuff.And, you know, that's one part of hardcore that I don't really like is this fascination with, like, third-hand stories of how so-and-so beat up so-and-so and blah, blah, blah, blah.And half the time it's completely false.Most of the time there's some element of truth.
27:28But just people have nothing.You know, it's the same shit as rap.People have nothing to do with it speculating about what did or didn't happen.And it's just like something better to do with your life.But rap is even more fucked up because there's like a financial incentive.Because you can make a fake news video on YouTube and get like a million views and make thousands of dollars off of just basically titling a video like something that did not actually happen.Question mark.Yeah.
27:52Or not even.Like I see it all the time and it'll be like such and such and such and such.And I'm like, I know these people and I'm like reading the title at first like, dear God.And then I'm like, wait a minute.No, no, no, no, no.This is not.You would not get the drop on this story if that was how this went down.Yeah, as opposed to being some kid on the bridge nine board, just wasting your fucking life,
28:12making up stories about somebody in a band that you've never even met.Right.But it's a, you know, I mean, I thought that stuff was cool when I was 17 too.And, you know, I would nerd out all of these stories.but oh, I heard so-and-so got in a fight with so-and-so.And I thought that was cool when I was 17.So if it's kids, I get it.But, you know, people need to grow out of it.
28:29Yeah, definitely.No, I feel like that's a big part of the appeal, though.Like, when I'm, when I, there was a Rolling Stone feature about, like, I forget what the context was.But there was an article about this one random-ass vegan straight-aged kid from Syracuse.And he was a huge Earth Crisis fan and shit.And I just remember reading that and just thinking that this was like the coolest, craziest shiton earth because they had a little blurb about him like fighting a guy outside a bar fordrinking or some shit and it just like the danger element of that was just so attractive to me
29:00probably didn't even happen probably didn't happen like that yeah yeah so many stories oh theybeat my friend up for smoking i have asked so many people who were like notorious assholes who are thekind of people who would do that sort of thing right it's like hey have you ever seen this happenlike is this a thing and everybody was like no never happened right definitely what umWhat were your first uploads and what was your original idea for the channel?And did it occur to you that this was going to be a very big undertaking and that it was going to take a shitload of work?But did you think it was going to be successful?I said it is going to be successful, period, because I know, especially at that point in my life,
29:42I mean, I was old enough and I'd done enough things and built enough things that I believe in myself enough that I believe I can do anything reasonable.I mean, I can't be a pro NBA player.But, you know, as far as anything in business, I believe that I can do it if I really put my mind to it.So I said, I'm going to do whatever it takes to make this successful.Maybe that's going to take a month.Maybe it'll take two years.But either way, I'm not going to fucking stop until it is successful.The original focus of it was more about business, which is actually what I've spent the majority of my life kind of focusing on.
30:14I mean, that's what I was school for.You know, I've always put more energy into that side of my life, you know, my career and buildingand running businesses than anything related to music.So that's originally what I thought I was going to talk about,but it turns out nobody gives a shit what I have to say about that.Right.Which in hindsight makes perfect sense to me.I mean, it's like, you know, people want, you know,
30:36there's a saying they say, you know, vitamin versus painkiller.People don't want vitamins.They want painkillers.So I get it.You know, people don't want to hear some guy talk about how to run a business becausethat's boring.They want to hear stuff about music because that's entertaining.It's also like you're going to be successful doing the
30:51stuff that you're especially equipped to do.Yes.And there's a lot of people that could tell me how to run a business and a lot ofthem have made billions of dollars.Whereas like you eventually end up honing in on, well, I guess I do know afuck a lot about punk and hardcore and all this shit.Maybe that's what I should do.Yeah.
31:06That's 100% right.I mean, I can certainly credibly talk about business.Right.But not to the same extent that I can talk about music.I mean, there's people like Jason Calacanis out there who, you know, or fill in the blankNaval and fucking Chimoth and all these people who have, like you said, built multi-billiondollar businesses, people should listen to them, not me.You know, they are uniquely qualified.
31:25Like, you know, people ask Chamath about Facebook.He's like, no, no, no, let me fucking tell you how that worked because my team built it.You know, that's the sort of person who can talk about authority about Facebook.I can talk about authority, talk about music with authority, you know, because what you said,because I was there, because I know people, blah, blah, blah.And I think that's a super good lesson for any kind of content creator.You should talk about what you can speak, you know, if you want to be this sort of person.what can you talk about with authority?
31:53And that may not seem important to you,but there's somebody out there.I mean, there's these fucking channels of peopleopening baseball cards to get millions and millions of views.You know, there's no such thing as content that's too niche.Right.You know, I mean, BMX is a pretty niche thing,and it got you here.
32:09Yeah.And, yeah, I mean, that's the one thing that I find so fascinating on YouTube,and I'll still frequently, like, go down rabbit holesof people who I find who have careers on YouTube.doing the most niche things. One of my favorite things I ever discovered was, you know, price matchingbasically, where it's like if you go to Target and you buy something for $3, but then if you canfind it at Walmart for $275, then you could, you know, in theory, take your receipt to Target andsay, hey, you owe me $0.25. Well, that whole process has been automated on phones and apps and
32:43everything like that. So there's this guy I saw who has a whole channel and apparently there's a wholecommunity of this and he goes around and will find, he'll walk around the park.in a lot of a supermarket all day, just picking up receipts, and then he goes home at nightand scans them into these apps, and it automatically searches all these other websites tosee if there's a better deal. And he'll, he's talking about making $1,000 in a month offthis, but, you know, I mean, that is pretty impressive considering this is picking up trashoff the ground, but also like he's talking about making $1,000 a month like he hit the fuckinglottery. And I'm like, I think it's the coolest thing on earth. And this guy's vlogging it.
33:20I would watch the shit out of thatAnd I don't give a fuck about ever doing thisI can't even remember what the fucking shit was calledBut man I just that that blew my mindLike there could be a fucking community for anythingHave you seen soft white underbelly?No uh I don't knowBasically a YouTube channel
33:35It's really big at this point where this guy is like a photographerHe interviewsCrackheads prostitutesOh yeah yeah with the black and white thumbnailsYesYesAnd I mean that stands out to me as like pure geniusIn terms of a YouTube channel
33:47Because I started doing thisdowntown L.A. right nextto Skid Row. Like shit, I could have givenan infinite fucking feed of guests.You know, I had a whole fucking studio. These people are literallyoutside the store and I'm justlike, oh, here, just struggling to interviewevery underground rapper that I could find. If I had
34:03known that I could have just interviewed everybut man, I don't know. To me, that shit alwayshas kind of, and that's what I think keeps me from watchinga lot of that content is this is just reallydark. Well, we've been around that stuffenough that it's not entertainingor interesting. It's like, well, that's halfmy fucking family. Yeah. I don't
34:18need to know what it's like to be a homeless crack addict because I have an uncle who was one.Right.You know what I mean?But for normal people who don't come from fucked up families like us, that's probablyreally interesting.But my impression of a lot of the homeless people downtown and shit, too, is like they'reso fucked off drugs that the idea, like I wouldn't even want to, you know, film them and putthem in my vlogs when I'm sort of vlogging my day or anything because they're so fucked up
34:42that it's just kind of like it doesn't feel like they're in control of their behavior.So how am I going to capture it and then put it on YouTube?I mean, I'm sure I did a bit over the years, but, you know, I think it's better overall to avoid that.It feels shitty.But this guy goes about it in a very different way, I think.And also, I've seen, like, I was watching this one YouTuber who was doing, like, he would actually go into people's tents and their whole little setups in downtown.And some of them are really fucking impressive.But the people he was doing it with were people who weren't fucked up on drugs.
35:08So that felt like a much more consensual affair.And I was finding that really interesting.Yeah.Yeah.You know, that's the thing with YouTube is what people want you to do.The content that people really want you to do is oftentimes not, you know, let's say, you know, YouTube explains it as delicious versus nutritious.People don't want you to make the nutritious content.They want you to make the most exploitative, salacious, you know, just kind of negative, nasty content.
35:35You know, your videos, the more somebody thinks that by clicking on this video, they're going to watch some motherfucker burn his life down, the faster they're going to click.Rage bait.rage bait or just watching some like delighting in someone else melting their life down i mean look at everyyoutube you know when they do something wrong there's a whole little fucking industry of people who make videos likejust chronicling every fuck up them and i'm not making excuses for those people like if they did something wrong theyyou know they deserve to be called out for it but you know that's what people want and uh i struggle with thatbecause you know in music there's a million videos that i can make about you know all the things that person x did wrong or thea hundred reasons why so-and-so is a piece of shit, scumbag.
36:18I was thinking about that from your perspective,that that probably is, that's the temptation,because you could go viral every week if you did,like, why so-and-so are the worst band ever,why so-and-so is the worst person ever, yeah.Absolutely.And I, you know, I have, just like you do,I have, you know, knowledge that other people don't
36:35that would probably be, you know, very, you know,be very interesting to people.This is not what I want to do.It's not because I'm protecting anybodyor making excuses for them.It's just, it's not the energy that I want to put out.And not to say that I can't ever be critical or can't have a negative opinion about something,but I really don't like doing that about individuals.
36:56I don't want to, like, put down a, I'll be happy to, like, say something critical about a genreor something or some trend, but I don't want to put down individuals because it's just notwhat I want to do with my life.I feel that.In rap, it's like, so-and-so sold this pathetic amount of record.That's like the stuff that will go viral or like so-and-so's career is over or, you know, all that kind of stuff.But basically just like letting you know that some guy who had like one song that got three million plays and there's really no reason that anybody should have ever expected that he would have an actual career.Well, guess what?
37:33He doesn't have a career.Little Pumps album only went to number eight.What a fucking loser.Yeah.I mean, that circumstance with him definitely deserves some exploration for sure.That's pretty fascinating thing to watch.But with my world, it's a little bit different, for one, because for sure, I either know the person I'm talking about or know someone who works with them.So if I was to highlight, you know, the fact that some band, you know, their album flopped, you know, the fucking drummer's going to see it and be like, what the fuck, man?
38:02Like, I don't fucking make videos about how your last video didn't do well.Like, leave me alone, man.I'm just trying to live my life.And I feel like with rap, it's almost like they understand that that's part of the ecosystem, you know, that people talking like, and the baby doesn't give a fuck if you talk shit about him.He's like, as long as you're talking about me, great.Right.You know.But the baby is like has a very real career in a way that a lot of these artists that have these like take down videos made about them are like people where you just would be crazy to have ever thought that they, that this person had a solidified career, anything to really fall off from.
38:38Right. A lot of times, you know?Yeah, that's true too.And yeah, with someone like him, he knows he's successful.And he's like, you can say whatever you want about me.I'm good, so have at it.He's probably made enough money that he could afford to fall off right now.I would imagine so.And just sort of live a falling off rapper's life,
38:55which realistically could probably still make you a couple million bucks a year.Yeah, I mean, there's worse things in being an irrelevant rapper that still gets, you know,10 grand for appearances or whatever.Hmm.I remember finding out that Bain,got like $2,000 for a show.$2,000.And being like, what the fuck?
39:13And then somebody said, they're like, well, you got to split that between the whole band,plus the other people going to tour with them.I'm like, oh, well, that immediately seems like almost nothing.But, you know, that was hard for me to wrap my head around.Like, there's such a big difference culturally where one culture completely celebrates the making of moneyand one basically shuns it.Yeah.And I was always more into, like, do you know, that cool G rap song, Road to the Riches?
39:36Probably.It's like one of the first songs about like, you know, grinding hard to make money from like 1988 or something like that.Right. I was always into that stuff when I was a kid, you know, because I grew up poor, not like super, you know, cry for me, but, you know, like single mom on welfare and blah, blah, blah.So, you know, for me, like making a little bit of money was always seemed like an impossibly hard dream.Definitely not something I would ever shy away from, you know. And so that's one part of like hardcore and punk. I just never.resonated with and I and that's a big part of why I was into rap in the beginningbecause especially back then you know that there's that whole like sort of strugglerap genre which I mean it's still a theme you know now they do it they talk
40:20about it you know in the context of selling drugs which is not something I everaspired to as a kid but good call yeah that kind of set of values in in punk andhardcore really it just doesn't sit right with me yeah there's a part of it that Ilike the sort of shunning of materialism, although I don't know how effectively hardcorereally manages to do that. Yeah, I mean, these fuckers all have a fucking closet full ofNike's and Star Wars figures. Like, dude, you collect fucking Star Wars dolls. Who are you to getup on your high horse about? When I was going to shows, I don't think anyone had nice shoes.I don't think that people were even thinking about their shoes, or at least if they wore,
40:57I wasn't noticing. But then I guess, yeah, like, because the kind of fashion core type shit,like, I remember going to see Throwdown and then finding out about 18 Visions, like,with them and being like,how the fuck are these people on the same tour?They should not be getting alongbased on the idea of hardcorethat I have in my head, which is like the dudeswho wear makeup and have spiky hair get beat up
41:17by the guys with camo shorts.But, you know, yeah, but, you know,18 Visions and Monster Crew, you know,hand in hand. So they were an interesting casebecause, you know, you think now that peoplehave cool haircuts and dress fancyto be cool. But the reason they did itwas exactly what you're saying,
41:35was, so a good friend of mine was in 18 divisions and is one of the people who like inventedthat whole thing. And the reason they did it is specifically to piss people off because it wascool to wear camel shorts and be, you know, jock and stuff back then. So they said, well,we're go, we all go to hair school. So why don't we get fucking Karen haircuts and wear ties?You know, like, it's funny to think back on all the things that I believed as a kid in regards tohardcore because there wasn't like any way to verify any of these rumors that you heard. But we used tohere, and I'm not saying this as if it was actually true, but who knows, we used to hear like,those dudes in 18 visions, I heard they suck each other's dicks. They probably started that rumor.
42:14And that to me, based on my view of the world, was like, I mean, I can't even put into words,like how foreign that was to me. I just had never even, like, I knew that gay people existed,but I had never really known anyone who was gay in real life like that. So it was just so foreignand hard for me to understand. Well, Hav, if you're listening, we'll need you to confirm or deny thisrumor. Yeah, or any dicks getting sucked.need to know that yeah let's I'm gonna need to see some photographic evidence one way or the otherlooking back on that and like how I viewed that it well how have had three kids by three different mothersoh so I would say he was probably busy putting that thing elsewhere right I'm not assuming that that
42:49was a real thing but I don't know um yeah but y'all another like crazy cultural moment for me was I don'tremember the band but I remember there was a band from L.A. that came out and and played a show in Worcester Massand they were wearing like big white teas and like large jeans shorts.Yeah.And that for like.Was it like E-town concrete or something?It wasn't E-town concrete,although they were at my first ever hardcore show in 97,
43:17which was like death threat, E-town, unearthed hate breed.Like in my town.Like I could have fucking rode my bike there in like five minutes.It's so insane.How many noses were broken at that show?Probably many.Yeah.Yeah.
43:31But, man, that was just mind-blowing.Oh, yeah, but, like, they came through and they're wearing these big white T's and, like, jean shorts, which I now understand is, like, you know, our version of hardcore had no gangster influence, whereas, like, their version of hardcore in L.A., obviously, like, gangs are a giant part of the culture, so that's kind of, like, fed into how they dress and stuff.Oh, I thought you were talking about more of, like, the Lugs kind of look.The Lug's Fubu sort of look.Kind of.But I see what you mean.It was more of a West Coast, like, you know, because there was a.time period where like every
44:02West Coast bike rider, every West Coastrapper that I knew it was like giantwhite teas like the tallest of teaslike every fucking day that was just the styleright. I guess I come back.Yeah I it's it's time I meanthe early 2000 stuff is starting to becool you know it's like all the
44:19Y2K you know e-girls and stuffon TikTok so it's only a matter of time untilthe Funkmaster FlexLug's driving boot is a covetedcollector's item. You evernotice how like all of the trends though theyalways lead to things that are more expensive.Yeah, yeah, that's true.
44:34That, like, I can't imagine white tea coming back as, like, the default hip-hop stylebecause it just doesn't feed the capitalist beast if your shirt is inexpensive.That's just, there's no future in that.And as much as for me, I kind of like, I was thinking about what I would do if I sold no jumperat some point in my life.And I was like, well, first thing first, I would wear a white t-shirt every single day in my life.Yeah, be like, Damon Dash, only wear a pair of shoes once.Do you ever see him on cribs?
45:00I do remember that, yeah.When he licked the bottom of the shoe.I'm going to go out on a limb and say Dame Dash is wearing pairs of shoes more than ones these days, but maybe like two or three times.My favorite part was when the butler came out and offered water and he stopped the butler's like, is this the most expensive water you could find?He's like, yes, of course, sir.And he's like, okay, good.That's amazing, like faking how fancy you are for content.I think he was joking, but it was amazing.
45:26If you in that era understood trolling in that kind of way, like if you understood that you could act like a fake version of yourself, a more exaggerated version and that basically any time you were on camera was like a wrestling promo opportunity, then the world is really your oyster because at that time, everyone's radar of what was fake and what was real was really set so low.And it's like you just took it for granted that everybody was being sincere.I mean, Paris Hilton fucking fleeced everybody doing that.You know, put some respect on Paris Hilton for inventing the influencer game, inventing trolling.Somebody like EZE who could just really say things that were so beyond the pale that he couldn't really possibly mean them.The fact that he understood how to sell that back to America at such an early stage is like pretty baffling to me because now it just feels like everyone gets that.I wonder how much of that stuff back then was fabric.and rappers in later generations emulated that,
46:30but they didn't understand it was fake,so they did it for real, and it became real.And it just makes the problem more and more extremethat you'd have some guy in Ohio who's listening to EZEand just takes everything at face valueand it's like, I'm gonna rob a bank.Right.And EZE's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
46:47EasyE, after his like prime,there was a lot of content around that time.Like I specifically remember one songwhere it was basically about robbing a bankand then taking the tell her in the backto basically assault her.That's right.And then taking her dress off
47:01and realizing the shit of penis,I wonder if that's still on streaming serviceis untouched, because if they're taking awaythe fucking YG song about robbing Asian people's homes,I mean, I think that probably shooting the trans personand the probably,it's like the next one to go, right?That is definitely one of those.
47:18I was a kid listening to that.And, you know, thank God I was like too timidto like act up.upon any of these sort of things because I just,I was baffled by it, but you gotta just assumethat there was just as many peoplewho like sort of sincerely bought into that worldview.I know some people who got in the hardcore scene
47:38who got into some very, very serious legal trouble,like went to prison for shit, and I asked my friend like,you know, because he's a smart guy, he was like,what happened?And he was like, I just thought it was cool to be a thug.And then I became one and here we are.you know and a lot of rapperrap kids want to be rappers
47:59etc would be doing themselveslike they would be more honest than they've everbeen in their entire life if they were to say thatand just accept that that's basically why they're inthe lifestyle that they're in yeah and you knowyou can choose to opt out of that at any time andmaybe people are going to call you some names on the internetbut it's better than getting shot or going to prison
48:17I interview people all the time whobasically just have to go to prison a bunch of timesuntil they figure out that oh I guess I just don't want to live the lifeof a criminal, you know? And evenI was interviewing Cali Mussel, who's aYouTuber and a bodybuilder and used to be inprison, street dude, etc. And hebasically said that the moment
48:35he got locked up that he just got indoctrinatedinto this shit becauseeveryone respected him so much based on howhuge he was and just his personality.And it's like, ifyou go to prison and you're goodat it, I mean, that'sjust like, it's hard. You don't have that same
48:51negative thing. Whereas if you go to prison, you're a totalpussy and you get terrorized the whole time, then yeah, you'reand probably not want to go back.My dad was a corrections officer.And so my stepmom was too.And I have a bunch of other family members who went to prison.So I remember asking my dad about that.Like, you know, why do people go back?
49:08And he's like, some people like it there.They prefer it to be, they prefer it over being on the outside because everything's done forthem in prison and they can just focus on what they want to do, which is like victimizingother people.And he was describing it as being really comfortable, too.He's like, think about it.Nobody's getting 12 hours.sleep on the outside.
49:26Sure.But a lot of guys in prison are fucking, you know, they're putting you to bed at like 8 p.m.It's like lights out.It's like, what the fuck else are you going to do?I wouldn't be comfortable for me.Right.Especially when you see what they eat.Yeah.
49:37That's what everyone complains about.It's like the food.Yeah.I mean, when I think about like the level of freedom I have in my life to just, you know,when you look at that postmates list and you're just looking through like hundreds ofdelicious restaurants and you're like, I don't want any of this.I don't know what the fuck to order.Like think about being in prison and you got to eat the same hot dog every day or
49:55I think about that kind of stuff all the time.I try very hard to not take my freedom for granted, you know,because I think about people I know who have, you know, been locked up and just how much,I used to have nightmares all the time that I had, like, killed somebody.And then I really, you know, that I had, you know, I killed somebody in self-defense,but I realized, oh, fuck, I'm going to go to prison for this.Right.And I was like, fuck, maybe I'm going to do 10 years or something.
50:17And maybe I'll get out, but I'm going to have to go to prison for 10 years.And I would wake up, like, in a cold sweat and stuff.Wow.And.That's a very reasonable thing to be.scared of because that is probably one of the worst things that could happen to you aside from dying.Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you ask any normal person who's went to prison,uh, what's prison like? And they look at you like you're fucking idiot and they're like,
50:35it's the worst fucking thing ever. What do you think? Yeah. It's so bad that it's kind of hardto believe that it still exists in the way that it does. Literally the only thing they can do to youafter that is kill you. Right. That's the only thing worse than prison. Hey, I watch, I watched, uh,I watched the season of the show 60 days in. And it was unbelievable. The best prison-related show I everwatch. But the main thing I got from it was just like, oh my, like I felt so thankful about everythingin my life as I watched that show. And I don't get that from a lot of programming, but everythingabout it just made me like want to behave, my best behavior, not get in trouble, not get pulledover, not do anything bad because I just am seeing this way of life. Like you can walk across
51:17this room without having to like worry about like the 10 bad things that could happen to you alongthe way. Definitely.I watched one of your videos and I feel like it might have been one of the most disliked of your videos.Not that I had like majority dislikes, but it was the one about racism and metal.What has been the conclusions that you sort of come to from talking about, you know, politics or race and stuff like that?Because that's one thing on YouTube.I think when you get into YouTube, you think it's going to be more left than it is.That is my exact conclusion.
51:50And you see the comments and you're like, wow, I made a lot of assumptions about how you get.would take in what I'm saying about this.That is my exact conclusion.I was afraid that people were going to come after me for not being, you know,anti-racist enough.Right.You know, I mean, I was very anti-racist, but I was, you know, you know what I mean.You could have taken it further in that video in particular in terms of, you know,
52:14sort of the whole social justice warrior.There's a spectrum.You weren't on the furthest end by any means yet.But I was definitely on that side of it.And but it was the exact opposite.I was like, oh, everybody in the internet is racist, which I know, I'm joking, that's an exaggeration, but for sure, like the vast majority of the comments on that were disagreeing with me, calling me names, you know, like, it was exactly what you said.And then I, anytime I've ever mentioned, you know, I'm not woke, like, at all, but I'm not an asshole either.You know what I mean?
52:50I'm not racist.I don't hate women.And anytime I'm critical of those things,I get a ton of comments from people who are,I don't know who these people are.Basically don't want to have their worldview questioned at all.Yeah.And I mean, maybe it's because, you know,
53:07we live on the West Coast and associate with the people we associate with.But it just blew my mind, to be honest,how many people out there, like,don't think that racism and sexism existor that if they do exist,like you shouldn't talk about it.It's just, it's puzzling.You know, sometimes I read those kind of responses and I'm surprised, like, like people who think
53:30it really shouldn't be discussed at all or that it's not a problem at all is the stuff thatreally kind of blows my mind because I understand the perspective of people who think that,you know, our culture basically like talks about this shit too much.I understand that because we are fucking inundated with conversations from a lot of people whodon't really seem all that sincere about it.like when I have to, you know, watch like a Chase Bank commercial about how against racism they are.And I'm like, really?Like this, like, I don't know if I want to hear anybody talk about this if Chase is telling me it.
54:01You know, and like, I understand that.But like the people are so just so resistant to having any conversation about it can be kind of amazing.Yeah.And, you know, in regards specifically to like metal.And I want to be clear, it is a uniquely metal problem.Like people in pop punk aren't racist.People in hardcore definitely aren't.racist. That's interesting. You know what I mean? Like in a hardcore show, if you're racist, you
54:24literally might get killed. You know, I mean, that's how I grew up. That has happened. That was myunderstanding, and I know what you're talking about right there, at least one of them. That was myupbringing was like, oh, there are crews in hardcore and like one of the main functions of thecruise is that if anything racist happens or if somebody shows up with swastika on their shirt,they're going to get the shit beat out of them. And that to me was a big selling point. I was like,wow, that makes me think that this white culture is a lot cooler than a lot of the otherwhite culture that I'm observing, you know?Yeah, and that's, I just sort of assumed that everybody felt the same way.
54:56Well, it's not the case in metal.And because, you know, I mean, you can watch the video, but essentially, you know,anytime I talk about rap in a video, it comes out in the comments, you know, lots of,I don't even look at the ones that YouTube flags, you know, is whatever objectionable,because I imagine there's all kinds of bad words in there that I don't want to look at.But the ones that make it through the filter are bad enough, you know.lots and lots and stuffabout how the media is conspiring
55:21to destroy white culture and stuffand you know the media hateswhite people and that's why they're forcingthis rap on us and they're trying to outbreedus and like all this stuff that's likeit's beyondit's beyond just sort of likerednecky kind of stuff it's like into
55:37the realm of like Q and on kind of likeyou literally think there's a conspiracyto like exterminate white peopleand you know it's hundredsof comments like this and people will say well it's justa few people on the internet. Why do you put so much weight in that? All right. Well, at what pointdoes it become enough people that you think it needs to be paid attention to? To me, the fact thatthere's hundreds of people saying this on a video with a few hundred thousand views, that's
56:01enough to represent a sizable amount of people to me. Right, because when I'm watching that video,I'm sort of wondering like, damn, there's that much racism and metal because I'm not like close enoughto it to really, you know, see that. And I was just surprised to hear that. But then hearing yousay that about the comments that kind of like proves the point i guess yeah and with any like european metalband uh there's sort of i don't really listen to that stuff but there's a filter i know lots of people who doand there's a filter you have to run of like okay before i like this band let me make sure that nobody in theband is it is a nazi or was in a band with a nazi really i mean it's like an actual literal nazi it'sthat common of a thing in those sort of scenes in like european metal yeah it's you know like
56:39there's pictures of i don't know people like the guy from fucking behemothyou know, with his friend from Graveland,which is like a straight up like Nazi band,pictures of them together.And, you know, he asks the guy from Behemoth about it.And he's like, oh, I don't endorse his politics.Whatever.That's his business.
56:55Damn, that's crazy because that's going to be a tough choice.I wonder how that feels.But would it be a tough choice for you?You're right.It's not a tough choice for me, but it's like I never knew a Nazi.Right.You know, so that kind of like, it makes me wonder, like,how I would feel if I was that guy and like you just socialize with other.
57:12Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about.I don't think there's that many people.in metal who you know would just throw around the N-word right but I think there's a lot ofpeople are like oh yeah the guys a Nazi big deal like I don't agree with them but whatever rightyou know and they don't see that as an issue that's interesting you think that in a waymetal's kind of become like a refuge for people who feel like that because I mean I don't reallyknow what kind of music people who are like talking about white supremacy on the internet reallylisten to these days I mean if it's not metal I don't know what else would it be you know yeah I
57:42I guess maybe some kind of like real redneckycountry? I don't know. That's crazy. I remember like every like outwardly racist person I've everprobably met my whole life just because it's like stood out to me so much. I just doesn't like I had aguy basically trying to recruit me to work on an oil tanker with him and one of his selling points wasthere was no black people. And this is just a guy talking to me outside of fucking burger spot.Yeah. And I said to him, I'm like, bro, I'm good. I'm good. I don't need a job. I'm good. And thenright at the last minute, but people who listen to this podcast are heard me tell the story a bunch of times,right as he's leaving he runs up to me and gives me a business card and he goes bro like i went to
58:17prison i did my time i came back and and you know right right right right like i put in work and i'm just likethe way he said it i was like this is interesting so when i got home i googled his name and he basicallylike blew a portoican kid's head off with a shotgun and was in like a fucking nazi gang back in the dayand went and did like 15 years for it and i'm like this is the fuck like he wanted me to google himwell if you're a white guy with tattoos you know i mean i have a lot of and my tattoos are notgood so they look like they could have been done in jail or something. So I remember one time yearsago when I lived in Ohio, I was at some shitty dive bar. And to be fair, I was trying to buy a cocaine,so the guy was not barking up the wrong tree. But he comes up to me like all super intense with that
58:59you know, coke kind of energy. He's some like, you know, white peckerwood type guy, a bunch of tattoosand just starts telling me about how he just got out of the joint like three days ago. And, you know, he's justtrying to make some money and he's selling coke and you know how he's clicked up with the ab andi was just like i do not want to be having this conversation with you right and asking me if i want tobuy coke from him and i was like yeah all right you know and then his some guy comes up to us and he's likeare you talking to my brother and i was like uh yes and he's like you can are you trying to get him introuble i'll fucking kill you if you get him in trouble you're like what the hell did i get myselfinto exactly i was like you know what i got that sense of like okay this guy isn't not um
59:41this is not an empty threat.I was like, I apologize,I'm not trying to cause any trouble.I'm just going to get out of here.And that was that.And I was like, man, this is how you end up gettingfucking stabbed.Right.
59:52Dude, Coke makes for bad bedfellows.You'll just deal with peopleyou would never deal with otherwisein the pursuit of that shit.And people who just got out of the jointare still like in that mentality.And I was like, this is just,I just literally dodged a bullet here.
01:00:07Glad I,let me throw this fucking scenario out to you.because I don't even think I've talked about this on the podcast,but this happened to me recently.And I don't, I have no expectation that I should have done betterbecause I didn't really realize what was going on until afterwards,but I've been thinking about it ever since.So we had a little BMX jam, right?
01:00:26We're all hanging out, smoking.I mean, the crowd is very mixed racially.There's like black guy standing right next to me rolling a blunt.There's another, you know, it's like very, very mixed crowd at L.A. skate park.And guy comes up to me and starts talking to me about how his kid thinks,I'm so cool and wants to take a picture with me.And as I'm talking to the guy and he's got a full face, he's like a 45-year-old white guy,full face of tattoos.
01:00:48And as I'm talking to him, I start to realize that every single tattoo on his face is afucking white power thing.Got a little bolts.He got that H-88, like, all these little, like, things that I just recognize from fucking moviesand stuff.And I, but I didn't fully realize, like, as I'm looking at him, and it's only like a minute-longconversation.And then he turns around and I see, like, even more.
01:01:09And now I'm 100% sure, like, oh, fuck.and you know but he's he's being super nice and taking a photo of his kid with me and then he walks awayand literally no but none of the people of color who are with me have any fucking clue what the shit onhis face means I'm the only one and I start telling them and they're looking at me like what thefuck like why the fuck do you know about all this Nazi shit I'm like oh okay how do you know how toread all this code I know they're like kind of looking at me like they give you a handbook or somethinglike were you a Nazi like why do you know and I'm like yeah like that's kind of a good point tooLike if I were to make a big deal about this, I guess I kind of would be doing it for me.
01:01:45Because you guys don't know what the fuck it is.Right.I felt like if I saw him again at a event like that, maybe I should say something, but I really, I'm kind of, he's being so nice that I'm kind of assuming, and there's like pooh-sheisty blasting right now.I'm kind of assuming that maybe it's just some prison shit.So this is like recently?This was like three weeks ago.Oh, okay.And yeah, I'm just like trying to, you know, what would you have done?
01:02:08because there's been other times in my lifewhen I think about itthat I could have been less cowardlyin terms of saying somethingto somebody who said somethingwho said something racist around me.Well, those kind of peoplecan and will go from zero to ten
01:02:22in a fucking heartbeat.So I don't know if that's cowardly.There's a difference between like a guy at the gas station,some like just dumbass redneck at the gas stationand somebody with those kind of tattoosat his age likevery likely might kill you.you know i mean that's that's not unimaginable so i'm not saying shit to a crackhead because
01:02:43a crackhead i can just walk past you know this guy came to an event that we threw and clearlyfelt comfortable being there which i mean i want everyone to feel comfortable but not of theexpensive other people feeling uncomfortable you want to get rid of that guy but you got it's likedefusing a bomb you know you can't just pull the red wire out right because you might blow everybodyup so you got to do it in a safe way it was just crazy because his energy was the opposite of whatI would ever expect from anyone on that type of time, you know, like, he's just, he was being so nice,and that's what really threw me off about the whole experience. People are very, you know,people are very multifaceted. Somebody can be super nice to you, and then be a total piece of shit
01:03:21monster to somebody else for completely different reasons, you know? I mean, it's people are notone-dimensional. It's true. How do you feel about, this is an offset of that conversation, but it's like in,Okay, when you were doing the zine, you're making a zine, it's for hardcore kids.Hardcore kids are ordering it, but it basically doesn't really matter what you cover necessarilybecause they're just kind of a hardcore zine.It's going to have 20 different bands in it.They're going to all fuck with it.When it comes to making a video, I mean, the video lives or dies by the title and the thumbnail,
01:03:51you could either make a fuckload of money or you could have a total dud,and you're probably more aware of that for your content than anything.How much does that sort of shape the decisions you make about what you cover?well at this point in my life i'm not going to invest a bunch of my time and energy in something thatis not going to i don't want to say not going to make me money because you know money is theonly thing that matters but it has to it has to like benefit me and my family somehow you knowwhat i mean um when i was younger i didn't give a shit and i would just make stuff because i wantedto make it and i think that's totally cool but at this point in my life i'm not going to spend
01:04:2615 hours on a video that gets 2,000 views instead of putting that money or putting thatinto like building some kind of business.I just can't do that.So, you know, it does matter.Like I said, I'm not gonna kind of give into the lowest common denominator, you know, audienceand make some like shitty video dragging somebodyjust because I know that would get a lot of clicks.
01:04:49But what I try to do is like start with a topicthat I'm like genuinely interested in talking aboutin some way or another.And I might make some compromises with, you know,shaping that to some extent,But I'm never going to do something just purely for views.It's just, this is not who I am.If I wanted to just make money, there's a lot of things I would do,
01:05:10aside from YouTube, you know what I mean?The hardcore kid attitude, though, is oftentimes kind of like the band with, you know,a thousand followers is just as important as the band with a million followers.And I feel like that has got to be something that you...But I guess you're not making videos about specific bands.You're trying to tell interesting stories and entertain your audience, right?Yes, but part of the reason why is because making videos about individual bands just generally doesn't get as many views because it requires you to be.That's why I focus on like genres more because let's say making a video about emo, as long as you're a fan of one of the fucking thousand bands under the heading of emo, then you might be interested in this video.
01:05:49But if I make it specifically about census fail or whatever, then it's limited to the audience of people because people only click on stuff that they know about basically, which I think is really dumb.and I would encourage people to not fucking echo chamber themselves like that.Like go out of your way to watch videos about things you don't know about.It'll make your life better.But that's the world we live in.And so, you know, what I try to do is take advantage of the fact that people will click on a video about something popular.And on the back of that, feed them something, you know, about a lesser known artist or some, you know, what I would hope is a piece of useful information or something like that.So if, for example, like I made a video of something.
01:06:28video about trap metal today and you know the title and the thumbnail are like the popular stuffeveryone to know like scar lord goes main city morgue um but towards the end of that video i talk abouta bunch of like super obscure underground artists you know with like 5,000 monthly listeners i see you dothat little sleight of hand from time to time exactly so you know that's kind of how i do it becausei feel like that's the best of both worlds i can you know get the views and make a little bit of moneybut i can also use that to you know kind of scratch my inner hardcore kid itch of givingsome attention to people who don't have as much of it.Do you think you're the only hardcore kid eating off NordVPN?
01:07:04Well, my manager's a hardcore kid too, and he's the one that brings me those deals.So there's at least two of us.Right.Okay, so how do you go about building out of your team, getting a manager?And I think you said that you had somebody helping you schedule stuff or whatever,and you have an editor.How do you go about making that decision?And is this a full-time thing for you now?
01:07:21It's not, but it could be.I'm a partner in two other companies.One is called URM Academy.It's an online school for rock and metal producers.We teach people how to record music.Another one is called riffhard.com, which is for like metal guitarists,teach people how to play guitar.Oh, that's cool.
01:07:36So that's sort of my real job.But I could do YouTube full-time if I wanted to, but I don't want to.But as far as building a team out goes, I have seen so many people think that they can't outsource this or that.Nobody could do it like I do it.It's not true.There's a lot of stuff you can outsource.and you will be glad you did.The sooner you do it, the better.
01:07:58That's how you scale yourself and your time.My manager is just through the, like, Hardcore Kid Network.You know, how do a hardcore kid?How did we find each other?You just do.You know, it's just like the magnet of hardcore kids that, you know, find each other.And he does, like, Jared Dines and Stevie T and Fluff,a lot of, like, kind of metal music kind of YouTubers.
01:08:20Oh, nice.And my channel is, especially back when he started working with me,It was smaller than a lot of the other ones.But because we're both hardcore kids, he was like, fuck it.I'll get you some deals.So that's how that started.And that was awesome because anybody that does YouTube, you know, those brand deals,that's a nice chunk of change that really makes up for ad sense,
01:08:39which can be up and down all the time and stuff.And you get a video demonetized.So that's how I found him.And with him, I just try very hard to be his best client because, you know, a lot of these,you know, it is working with influencers and stuff.Most of them are flakes and they don't do what they say they're going to do.They're late.I try to never be that person.
01:08:56If I make his life easy and I make, you know, if I'm his easiest client to work with,then I know I'm always going to have work.So that's how I kind of, and he's my friend too.He lives down the street for me.So there's that.But that's how I think about him.As far as the podcast editor, I have, so I have a podcast editor and producer.And then I also have a video editor.
01:09:16The podcast editor, I just met her friend or a friend.You know, she edits the podcast for URIM Academy.me and I just was we do this old convention sort of thing every year and I was just havinglunch and talking to her and I said, I need to do a podcast. Do you want to help me make it? She saidyes and that was that. And I think once you have somebody good like her who's reliable, just getthe fuck out of their way and let them do their thing. You know, if somebody needs to be micromanaged,that's the wrong person. Find somebody good, get the fuck out of their way and let him do their job.The editor just emailed me randomly and said, hey, I'm a fan of the channel. I have done the following
01:09:52work for this like soccer channel. I'd love to try it out with you. And I've gotten emails likethat before, but there's just something about his email that seemed like he was worth taking a chanceon him. And so I was like, all right. And then two days later, I sent him in the first thing. And it'sbeen awesome. So the lesson there to me is like hit people up. If you want to work with them, like DMs andemails, that shit works. There's lots of projects I've gotten that way. Like, you know, Bridge 9. You know,that like yeah you know bird nine i did a uh flash game for him in like 2004 or something like thathe also has a uh clothing company called sully's brand you know yeah you know if you're in bostonyou you know you know you've seen the shirts whether you know you've seen the name of the brand or
01:10:37yeah exactly so i just email or i uh mailed him a package in like 2003 or something like thatwhen i was doing graphic design it just mailed him my work and said hey i'm a fan of the label i'd love to dosomething and he hit me back and was like I don't need anything for bridge nine but i need something forsoles do you want to do it and so it did um so the lesson there is like just put your put yourself out thereyou know if you want to work with somebody hit up your favorite YouTuber or artist or anybody and justsend them your shit and if you do it enough time somebody eventually is going to say yes and once one personsays yes then it's much easier to get everyone else to say yes it's that first domino that knocks downall the other ones and just go for it i know so many people are basically successful
01:11:18online because they at one point were willing to work for somebody for free just hit them up offeredI know so many people who got on by doing timestamps I believe it just hit up somebody who had apodcast and said I'm such a big fan let me do the timestamps for you and then that somehow blossomedinto them making a bunch of relationships and boom they're like doing their own thing at some pointyeah absolutely I mean that's half the opportunities that I've gotten did you may have seen themagazine I used to it was called flow back in like the mid 2000s it was like came with a CDa DVD and a magazine.We had a lot of action sports and music stuff,
01:11:52so like Quicksilver would pay us a couple grandto make a video about some surf competition they did.We had some BMX stuff on there.I don't remember what brandsbecause I don't remember enough about it.But I got that job.I did all the video stuff for them for like three years about.And that was the same thing.
01:12:07I just mailed a package to the guy.And we worked on that thing for like a year and a halfbefore I ever even met him.Right.Just because, and I would have done it for free.He paid me, but I would have done it for free.That is the one.way it works. Like if you have any kind of skill, you got to be good at what you do and you have
01:12:22to have a network. And the way you're going to build that network is just fucking reach out to people,you know, and that's what I learned from hardcore being a little kid wanting to interviewbands. I'd write them a letter and say, hey, I'm Finn. I'm 15 years old. I have a zine. Would youlike to do an interview with me? And more often than not, they'd be like, all right, cool,here's my phone number. Call me. I go, oh my God, I've got to call the guy in the band.Yeah. But you get used to that and you learn that it's just a numbers game. If you reach out to people,X percent of them are going to ignore you.X percent are going to say no.
01:12:50And then the rest of them will say yes.And you only need a couple people to say yes at the right time to change your life.And all those people who ignored you at some point, if you do a really good job providing valuewith the first gigs that you get, those gigs will 100 percent end up leading to things that are paid.And also all those people who ignored you are going to end up taking you serious once they seethat you've actually put in a significant amount of work and have something to show for yourself.because that is the hardest thing is getting from zero to 60.Like somebody was asking me recently, like, when you started the podcast,
01:13:21was it hard for you to deal with getting a lot of hate?And I'm like, no, it was hard for me to deal with the fact that nobody was paying attention to me.I wasn't getting anything to get hate until I was like successful and people had an expectation.You know, like I would have been so lucky to have hate early on.It probably would have blown up faster.Yeah.I mean, if people are reacting to what you're doing, then that is a sign.That's a sign of success.
01:13:41The worst thing is indifference.If you put shit out, which is a part of the process,put stuff out at the beginning and it feels like three people watched it and one of them is yourmom and you're like why the fuck am i doing this but that's just part of the process you know i madei want to say 70 videos before i really got anywhere it took me like nine months which i thinkis fast you know i i consider that to be quick but you were getting what like a couple hundredor a thousand views or something uh like one to 200 and that that i mean that is the hardest timeis being a YouTuber and is when you don't have a
01:14:15audience and you're just talking to the to the non-existent fan base. But at that point, you alsohave to start thinking promotion. How am I going to put this in front of people's faces?You know?Yep. And that it's a grind. It's hard. It's discouraging. The first part of your career in anythingyou do is the hardest. It gets easier. You know, I feel like I feel like I used to work a lotharder and used to like life used to be a lot harder, you know, but it's because I built thatfoundation and now things are, you know, the snowball is rolling. I don't have to work as hard as Iused to, which I feel guilty about, but that's a whole other conversation.
01:14:48In terms of your aspirations for your channel, you've been involved with media companies.Do you think about your channel as basically being you, or is it something that you could seeturning into something bigger than you or where it might one day really have a life of its ownand have a bunch of different people commentating on it or something?You know, I think it's me.I think the media company approach is a totally valid and smart one.I just don't think it's the one that I want.It makes sense like for you or, you know, for, I don't know, like there's another company
01:15:22I follow a Collins Last Stand, now Last Stand Media, where it's like it starts with one personand then they scale it by adding other people or Linus Tech Tips does this too.You know, he has a process for building new hosts and eventually they're able to producevideos on their own and Linus is not involved at all.And I think that's totally smart, but it's not really what I want to do.I don't expect that this is going to last forever.What I hope is that I'm building some sort of brand for myselfthat will enable whatever I do next.
01:15:48You know, like what I want in a future worldis I want Amazon or Microsoft to pay me a million dollarsto help them figure out how to spread their messagebecause they suck, like Amazon sucks shit at YouTube.Amazon Web Services YouTube channel,they literally get like 250 views on videos.And this is AWS that runs,literally like 30% of the internet a I don't know what a WS makes now like 20 billion dollars a year and
01:16:16they can't get more than fucking 250 views on a video so you would rather be a consultant to massivecorporations it seems kind of antithical to like everything you built uh well I'm I'm happy where I'm atbut it's not going to last forever what I'm going to be like 50 years old talking about fuckingface tattoo rappers I feel that I feel that I actually didn't mean it that way no it's a totallyperfect i dread that and think about because like that was always my thing when i was doing the bmxshit was like i got into this because i was super passionate about it in terms of like writing about it onthe internet and making videos and covering it and stuff and i always used to just look at certain peoplein the industry and be like damn that dude is 34 and he hates his fucking life and he's only
01:16:58associated with this little bike shit because he liked it when he was a kid and he doesn't knowanything else i used to always think like man i hope i don't have to fucking keep doing this shit just becauseit's the opportunity I have to make the most money, you know?And this, where I'm at now in terms of this was pretty much just a result of me,feeling I had to branch out.I had to try other things because I was just feeling so stale with just doing the same shit over and over, you know?Yeah, you got to have an idea of where you're going with it, which, you know, some sort of an exit.And if it lasts forever, great.
01:17:30But I think you should have an idea of an exit, which could be scaling it to the point where, you know,Adam started this thing.But now it's just a network of eight other people who are.the next generation that are, you know, able to do what he did 10 years ago, or if it is buildinga brand for yourself and then bowing out of YouTube and saying, well, YouTube, it was fun, but now I amtransitioning from being a player to a coach. And, you know, my interests and experience are morealong the lines of, you know, of, I guess, marketing and technology than they are talking aboutmusic necessarily. So not that I don't enjoy it, I do, but I know that I could help Amazon
01:18:07for example, become a lot better at storytelling.And if they paid me a million dollars,that would be the best fucking million dollarsthey ever spent.So, you know, Andy Jassy, if you're watching.No, you're worth.My DMs are open.Give me a million and I'll do it.
01:18:21No problem.For sure.No, yeah, that's interestingbecause, I mean, I could imagine your channeljust like continuing to, you know,I feel like at some point,let's say you decide you want to bow outand you've got a million subscribers.
01:18:34And this is a very specific audienceof people who give a fuck aboutmetal and punk and hardcore and shitit would be a real shame to let that goI feel like I feel like you would have tofind a way like just being youI feel like you would find a way to breathelife into it some way like it's got at least
01:18:49at least and I wish I had done this withthe BMX channel or if it made more sensebut I feel like at least use it as a platformand hey I'll repostclips from other people's videos tohelp promote you or something this person makesa dope video I'm going to post the firstfive minutes of it and you got to go to their channel
01:19:05watch the full 15 or something like thatto at least like use that audience to sort of help that community I guess yeah I'd be totally open to thatI'm not necessary like that's not my plan but if it happens that'd be great you know because I do like helpingyou know up-and-coming artists especially at some point in my life I've fucking basically got theimpression that nobody give a fuck about guitar oriented music anymore and from watching your channelI realize how much of a culture there still really is around it and especially like watching yourshit and realizing how many people are talking about rock.music on TikTok. That was kind of mind blowing to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely, you know, it's
01:19:42definitely still out there. It's not what it was in 2002. But I mean, I think especially now with thecrossover of all the rap stuff that I talked about that all my metal fans, metal watchers,hate me for talking about, but, you know, which is how I discovered you was when you were doingall that like got boy click, you know, interviews and stuff like that. I know you're a big Zillikamifan. And yeah, that was a fucking awesome interview that actually we should re-upload some part ofthat because that was awesome. I'm a huge fan. And,So smooth, I like to sell crack.That was his best quote in the whole thing.
01:20:11He was just totally honest.He was just like, I like to sell crack.It's just a hobby of mine.Some people are into making their own hot sauce or pickles.I like crack.He said it like it was saying, I like fishing.Yeah.I mean, hey, a man's got to know his lane.
01:20:27But I think that to me has made guitar music much more relevant than it has been in years.Because, you know, rock, they don't want to be.stars anymore and rappers do. And, you know, I don't even consider most people consider the quoteemo rappers or trap metal people to be like rap people. They're really not. You know what I mean?There's some that might be a little bit like so small as probably more on that side of things.But, you know, like all this goth boy click kids, they're not rappers. And the rap community doesn'trelate to them or see them as being involved with what they're doing at all. Yeah, they don't know orcare at all about that stuff. It is 100% culturally part of rock. It's dope that.
01:21:07all that stuff exists, but to sort of act like that's even close to the mainstream of rap or of stuffthat's really popular, you know, like even, you know, somebody like Juice World, though, is kind of likethe one who sort of rose through. Obviously, a little peach career was cut super short, but Juice Worldreally took like that sort of flavor, but really he was so hip hop too. Like he just made so many straightrap songs and was such a good rapper that he was able to navigate between the two in a way that waskind of different. But he brought attention to, you know, the guitar music that he did like.It's true, you know, Post Malone would be another person doing that. So I think that's kind ofmade it relevant to a younger generation that otherwise, like, why would anybody, you know, under
01:21:4930-something know that Yellow Card exists other than the fact that, you know,Juice World may or may not have, you know, taken a melody from them? Right. Yeah, that has been a weirdone to hear all these like rap kids being like what the fuck is yellow card and I'm just like silentlyover here like yeah I remember yellow card okay yeah and I mean that's a good example of how it you knowthat how rap is making rock relevant again in a way that or you know all the all the people thatTravis Barker works with and blah blah blah you know that to me is the most interesting thing that'shappened to guitar music in a long time totally unrelated but I remember one time my friend dragged meto a brand new show in probably 2008 and just really
01:22:32you know, in 2008, I'm like,like 26, and just realizinglike, oh, like,this is what girls are doing.Yeah, yeah. I'm like,like, you're going on all these hardcore and rap shows.Like, this is, if you want to meet girls,you got to just go to the brand new shows and shit.
01:22:48Yeah, definitely.And I never,I'm just not at all.That's a more like kind of indie end of pop punk and emo and stuff.And I just don't resonate with that at all, you know?I feel that.I just don't get a small peepy energy to me.I like a lot of email and stuff,
01:23:06but definitely never, like always liked it.And actually watching your shit about indie rockreally expressed pretty much exactlyhow I've always felt about indie rock,which is that musically, I find a lot of it pretty...It's fine.And compelling.I'll, like, listen to, like,
01:23:22a lot of those bands, realistically,but have never related to the culture of it at allor, like, found any of it interesting.And, like, even now when I'm, like,watching documentaries and Netflix about like folk bands and stuff.I'm just realizing like, wow, this is music I always liked, but that I never felt any needto learn about.Right.
01:23:38And I think, and people think I'm being gatekeeping when I say this.I don't mean it this way at all, but I think that we don't identify with it becausewe come from too much of a dysfunctional background.You know what I mean?Like, to us, it's like too bland.You know what I mean?because our bar for stimulation and connecting with something emotionally requires more darkness than those people have in them.Right.
01:24:08And that's not a bad thing.I'm happy for them.And I'm not like, oh, you're not as edgy as me.But you don't want to take your art in from somebody who basically is boring.I just can't.You know, and that's not a knock.And that explains why it's more popular than the stuff I like because most people are, you know, not as interested in or not as drawn to darkness as we are.And that's just the way it is.
01:24:28I've listened to a lot more Chief Keith than Chance the rapper in my life.There you go.That does a lot.How did you end up in the relationship that you're in?Because I feel like one thing that we have in common that you've mentioned is that we both basically ended up in relationships with normies.Yeah.Well.And she doesn't really understand your interests as much.
01:24:48Like my girl is very foreign to a lot of the drill rap stuff.She looks like a normie, but she's into all this stuff.I mean, she listens to hardcore and stuff.She was into like metalcore and all that kind of stuff.Oh, okay.I kind of got the idea from your shit that she was sort of totally in the dark.And I was like, I wonder how someone's so subculture you got into that relationship.Well, she was not into hardcore, you know, which is different.
01:25:10Being into like emo and metalcore is different than being into hardcore, you know what I mean?Not as clear a sign of mental illness.Exactly.Exactly.When you go to hardcore shows, sometimes doesn't feel like that, like, man, you're going to be kind of crazy.I don't want to be here.If you don't go to one for a long time,I mean, people don't get into bands called hate breed terror and death threat because everything's fucking cool.
01:25:32And those all seem like pretty nice bands in the realm of things.There's much worse.Yeah.Like, I would always be like wearing a hate breed shirt and having somebody asked me if it was like a racist thing or something.Right.It looks like it would be.Right.And that would be a really good name for a racist man.
01:25:45Right.If you came out with a band called hate breed in 2021, would anyone believe you if you said that it wasn't a racist thing?I don't know.Yeah.No, probably not.And the flames, you know.Lots of things about it seem to be clear for anybody listening, not a racist band whatsoever.What kind of band do you think Chad Hanks would have been in if he was born 20 years earlier?
01:26:06Gosh.Good question.It occurs to me that he could have easily been at a hardcore show of life.I've been a little different.Was it Kevin Bacon's son, I think, is in like a crust band or was, I think.I remember having that conversation online back in the day and being so in awe that somebodywho is Kevin Bacon's son could want to be involvedto that at all.
01:26:29And imagine how hard it is for him to come out to his friendsthat he's Kevin Bacon's.He's like, well, you know, guys, there's something you should know about me.I hope you don't think less of me.If you do, I understand, but I just have to be honest with you,you know, this is my dad.And then he slides a picture of Kevin Bacon across the table.Living out here, I don't really see anyone reacting negatively to it
01:26:51because it's kind of normal to be like close to celebrity out here.where I was like where I grew up is like but put on your like you know Western masshardcore show hat you know like there's it's gonna be a beaten definitely that would be a weirdand it's so funny to think that your dad being successful is like something that you right be ashamed ofyeah yeah it's funny you got to you know you got to pull out your uh your your paperwork and showthem how many like dysfunction boxes you check in order for them to take you seriously and it's stilllike that like there's a rapper rob banks who's shaggy's his dadAnd by all account...
01:27:26Oh, I didn't know that.And by all accounts, Shaggy was not very involved as a dad.Yeah, shocking.And I mean, he's got to hear about this for the rest of his life.Like, his whole time as a rapper, like, people bring it up as if it's their fucking Trump card.Right, right.It's like, why...Yeah, I'm aware of who my father is.
01:27:41And he wasn't present.So if you're looking for trauma, I mean, what could be your dad being Shaggy and he's not around?I mean, that does sound coming.Yeah, I mean, your dad could be, you know, vanilla ice.Hmm.You know, but that, you should do a video about Vinal Ice because in my learning about him, I basically realized that he was very much like a respected rapper at a time.And then he came out with that song and that song was doing very well.And then all of a sudden they lampooned the song on Saturday Night Live.
01:28:11And it was like overnight he just became this fucking laughing stock who basically like poisoned the well for white rappers for decades to come.Sure.Yeah, I mean, that sounds about right to me.I can't speak to him being a respected rapper before that,but definitely I remember when that song came outand everybody made fun of it for a solid decade.Have you ever watched his Home Improvement show?He was on Home Improvement?
01:28:36No, he had a Home Improvement show.It's called The Vanilla Ice Project.Wow.Where he'll, like, you know, fix up the basementor put in a hot tub or something.It's great.Wow.He's really, really good on camera,
01:28:47and he seems like just genuinely stoked about home improvement.It seems to really know his shit.Wow.That's awesome.He'll put a new driveway or something.I just interviewed Twista. He's a gun instructor now. Oh.So he's literally from like the murder capital of the United States. He's pretty much the first Chicago rapper ever.Chicago's known for having like unbelievable amounts of bloodshed and now he's out here trying to teach people probably not mostly those rappers.
01:29:10But you know, teach some people how to use guns safely. That's cool.I wonder how many rappers know how to like, you know, break down and clean a gun and all that sort of stuff.Like how much do they know about guns?The number of incidents that I know about in which.a rapper discharged a firearm accidentally in a home and either like almost shot their homieor you know whatever is pretty large that's one thing that i would say that rap has been pretty goodat keeping a lid on is just how many rappers have discharged firearms in places that they shouldn'tof because usually they kind of understand that that's not something to advertise yeah that's not
01:29:44that you don't get any clout for that but man i mean there's like there are things that i wish i knewabout, like, I interviewed King Vaughn maybe a year ago.That was a year ago.And since then, I have seen, like, conversations that he had on Twitter about basically,like, murders that he had committed.Yeah.And the extent to which he was airing himself out on Twitter and just thinking nothingof it is baffling.
01:30:12Like, I don't know how I didn't know when I interviewed him, but that stuff's all out there now.And it's fucking insane.It's wild to meThe amount of I guess like self dry snitching that happens in rap nowAnd they mustI mean they must understand what they're doing and they don't careAnd they feel like it's gonna catch up with them one or I don't understandI mean and in particular like I mean young people doing that
01:30:39I look at it and I'm like holy fuck you guys are insaneBut also I kind of understand itThe fact the NBA young boy is about to do 10 years for like possession of firearms about a felonand it's because he just wanted tobe holding them in the music videoand shit. Right, yeah, exactly.It's like these people knowthat you can't have a gun when you're on
01:30:57parole and you can't hang out with your gang when you'reon parole and you know, puttingthat in a music video that's going to get millionsof views. Like, they have to understandwhere this goes. The video didn't evencome out. The cops managed to confiscate thememory cards from the cameras that had thefootage of him holding all the guns
01:31:13and stuff. And I mean, NBA youngboy free on the streets is probablyworth like $10 million a year or some shit.Like he could just make so much money by touring and putting out music thathim putting himself in that position for basically like his love of being a gangster andplaying with guns.I mean,it's like unthinkable from the perspective of like a rational person.
01:31:34The only way you can really understand it is just that he is so that thing that hepathologically compelled to do it.He just cannot resist the guns and the bullshit.And I mean, and that's his best behavior.because it's not like anybody got shot in this music video this is just them holding guns and he couldn't hold back from that even it's it's just surprising to me I mean I used to do graffiti when I was younger and the idea of graffiti writers being on Instagram is crazy to me and there's I mean there's a lot of the older ones that aren't for that or if they've gotten busted and you know the cops already knew who they are and you know stuff like that but you know what I'm gonna do so far enough like Casanova like he's been around the fucking block having all these Instagram conversationsabout selling drugs just in the DMs.So the investigators are ableto just read his DMs and just basically
01:32:23pieced together his whole criminal enterprise.He understands, yeah, he knows how this stuffworks and it's, I don't, I just,I don't understand why they go.I don't understand.Yeah, it's like, you just,I mean, I don't know the extentto which anybody really needs to be, like, taught to be
01:32:38a better criminal, but it doesstand out like that, like, holy fuck,like, how could you guys be this badat this? And like, when I, when I, when I,even occurs to me when I think about myself in the perspective of somebody on a TV show who'slike going out to commit a murder or whatever. I'm just like, this shit's impossible becauseyou can't bring your phone with you. So that's number one. If you're going to go kill someone,you can't bring your phone with you. And if you leave your phone at home, then you're going
01:33:03to have to explain to the cops what you were doing for those couple hours and why your phonedidn't have any activity during that time period. Because you carry the world's most likeaccurate surveillance device with you at all times. You know? And, like,like your car has GPS in it.They could get into your car and figure out that you went there.There's just so many things.Not to mention the cameras, not to mention what are you going to do?You're going to rent a car?
01:33:27I mean, that goes back to you too.I don't understand how people, I guess I understand how by just dumb chance people get awaywith doing stuff like that, but I don't understand how they could go into it thinkingthat they would be able to get away with it.And especially in a place of Chicago where there's so many murders that never get solved.And it doesn't even seem like there's any chance of them ever being solved.I mean, a lot of those just happen on the street, so it's like less to track.Nobody cares enough about, you know, this particular case to try to close it.
01:33:54And when you get 10 people killed in a weekend, it's like, well, how much resources do the cops really have to dig into this anyway, I guess?I've thought about like, you know, like in Red Dead redemption and stuff, I think about like in those games, you can just go kill somebody behind the saloon.And as long as nobody sees you, you got away with it.And I was like, man, I guess how it was back then.I think a lot of Chicago gangster kids think that that's basically how life works.And from their lived experience, it probably basically is.That's probably true.Yeah.
01:34:20No, that definitely is.I mean, just, we live in a surveillance state.Like, I fucking, I was reading about or watching an interview with this dude Gorilla Black,who's like a rapper from the early 2000s.He just got out of prison doing nine years on credit card fraud.Is the exact same shit that I used to do with my friends go do credit card fraud?He just did it like 15 years after when there's fucking cameras everywhere.And they caught him, I think, just from how, like,
01:34:45tracking his license plate in the parking lot of the mall.I mean, we parked in the parking lot of the mall when we were doing that shithundreds of times and never got caught.Yeah, yeah.It's, uh, I don't know how anybody thinks they're going to get away with any crime now,which is why I do not commit crimes.Hmm.Same.
01:35:02I don't even, I don't even mess around with Torrance.You don't?No, nothing.Squeak and clean.Do you know anyone's ever got caught for using a torrent?Uh, yes, Hobb from 18 Visions got a nasty letter.I think he downloaded a Harry Potter movie or something for his daughter.Damn, well, that's why you need NordVPN.
01:35:19That's right.Yeah, I used to torrent and stream shit illegally all the time.Now I don't really do it because it's just inconvenient.Yeah, exactly.I'd rather just pay five bucks.Oh, no, that's a lie.I did torrent the room because it's not, you know, that movie?No.
01:35:35Tommy Wiseau, like the worst movie ever made, you know, oh, hi, Mark.No.Oh, man, you got to see it.I got to find out of this.It's amazing.When I met my girl, she had every streaming service.And I'm like, wow, I'm never going on a pirate bay again.Well, the room is not available online anywhere.
01:35:51Oh, I wouldn't feel bad about that.No, I don't feel bad about it.And I would have preferred to just buy it, you know,but instead of having to torrent and then connect my computer to the TV and all that shit.But yeah, I mean, there's so much good stuff out there that you can do legally.Like, why, it's just not even worth the hassle of pirating.Yeah, it's pretty crazy because, you know, they basically got rid of piracy,or at least like made it difficult by making it more easy to not pirate shit.
01:36:18Like iTunes is just so much easier than pirate bay.Never mind like I don't even know how the fuck I would get those MP3s onto my phone.Yeah, exactly.I don't even know.I can figure it out.I know.Yeah, who wants to do that?Why the fuck would I do that when I could pay 10 bucks a month?
01:36:30Which is not necessarily that you still see people power like these boxing matches like crazybecause it is like 100 bucks for like three hours of entertainment.What do you think about, you know, the Paul brothers and, you know, their box?boxing stuff.I just think that they're both smart as fuck for figuring this out, and they're bothlike kind of shameless as fuck enough to like really do all this shit.Like Jake Paul, I don't know if there's anyone who's influenced him as much as FloydMayweather in terms of this persona that he has now is like, oh, you hate me?
01:37:00Yeah.I guess I might as well just play the villain.Floyd, yeah, I mean, Floyd gave Connor the playbook and Connor gave everyone else theplaybook.This is true, yeah.I think that, because, you know, Floyd used to be pretty boy Floyd.or no, no, he's money, what was it, Money Mayweather back in the day.And then he became the Floyd that he is now.
01:37:17Pretty boy Floyd, I think, whatever the fuck it was.He had a heel turn is the point.And that's when he, because he's kind of a boring fighter because he's super defensive and like, he's actually boring to watch.Right.And nobody wanted to watch and he doesn't knock anyone out.He just plays defense.Then he became the heel and he blew the fuck up.And everyone was like, oh.
01:37:35So real sports is just like wrestling, only the outcomes aren't predetermined.Definitely.Yeah, he just figured that out, dude.And like the Jake Paul thing is crazy because they're saying right now that he might be signing to Drake for management.Why not?I mean, I'm making enough money that it makes sense.I have a hard time imagining Drake, uh, Drake getting behind Jake Paul.Like, it's still Jake Paul at the end of the day.
01:38:00Like, I mean, I guess like maybe it's just so obvious that he's going to be super successful.But in terms of Drake and this brand that he's been creating over the years, it's kind of hard to imagine him wanting to,you know, link up with Jake Paul to such an extent.I remember when Drake was just universally clowned by everybody,and then like 2011 or 12 or whatever,and then a couple years later,everybody was like, you know what, actually he's kind of cool,and now he's like universally respected.
01:38:28And I find it very interesting people who are able to kind of flip that.Right.The question is really just when we're going to leave the Drake era,because he's basically just been like the god of rap for so longthat it's almost impossible to it.And I've even heard people recently say,like, this is the little baby era now.It's not the Drake era anymore.
01:38:47And if Drake put out a project that was like reallyoverwhelmingly received, I guess I could kind ofunderstand that logic better.It's impossible to say, you know,it's just like with sports, you know, just becausesomebody beats the long-reigning champ, it doesn'tmean that the person who beat them now, you know,is going to have the same legacy.
01:39:03So, you know, in any genre,some new artists might come along.But until they've been able to stay on top for 10 years like that,we don't know. And even if we couldpoint out some rappers andsay, look at this guy, he's doing better than Drakeon this metric. Right. DrakeDrake just crushes every metric
01:39:18so across the board that it would beonce you had somebody that reallyconsistently sold more albums or theirtours were bigger or they were just a bigger star,then you could start having that conversationbut I mean, I don'tsee anyone who's even close to that level.I don't understand why people like
01:39:35Drake because he's terrible.You don't like him? He's terrible.Like it literally, the stuff where it sounds like he may have written his own lyrics, it sounds like a joke.It's like Dr. Seuss.I'm the man with the plan.There's a little bit of that, yeah.Some of the 4 a.m. in Vegas or whatever, sometimes I'm a little underwhelming.I still think of him the same way people did, you know, in 2011 as basically just like a clown.
01:39:58Wow.You know, and I'm obviously out of touch because nobody else thinks that way.So it's one of these things where I just don't understand why people like him.Yeah.I mean, I think when you really want to look at like talent, hits, you know, everything.Like, he just really like, and honestly, like, I feel like I fell even more in love with his character, like, when I saw him live and just really started to get the feeling of like, wow, this guy's a fucking athlete of music.Oh, I respect him.When you see somebody crush a live show the way that he did, I was just like, I don't know if I've ever seen anybody do what he just did, like in terms of the length of time, the number of hits, the way he had the audience captivated, the amount of.
01:40:38I want a movement that he just had on stage.And I hate when people bring up live performancewhen they're talking about why a musician is goodbecause I just feel like it's kind of...I don't give a shit about live shows.Right, because that's what...I will forever try to have a conversationthat you're basically having me about Drake,
01:40:53but about Travis Scott,where I just like some of why he's so amazing musicallyis kind of lost on me.And it's always like, you've got to go to the show.And I'm like, no, I don't.If I have to go to a show, then it's not that good, bro.That's how I feel, too.Like, because then it's not about the music.
01:41:06Right.You know, it's about the experience.you had there, which is cool and good on them for providing, you know, an experience thatwhatever 20,000 people wanted to pay 300 bucks for. And when you have the most fans,it's not that hard to have an amazing show, even though I do hear from everybody, these amazinglive and shit. And I believe that he is, but to me, that's a separate conversation, you know,of like, that's one facet of what they do. But if that's, I agree with you that, like, if youhave to go to that, and to me, that's sort of like a sign that maybe something doesn't add up.
01:41:33I think, because I forever will have the conversation on this podcast about how rappers are not thatgreat live. Yeah, they're terrible. And I really feel like I feel that way only because of my upbringinggoing to hardcore shows and shit where it's like when you see a tight metal band perform, it's justlike a thing of wonder. That's why Ghost Main is good live because he played in metal bands.He always has a live band though? No, but just like him. I think he does now. Yes. It's like twitchingtongues, I think basically. But yeah, I mean, he's really good live because he played in hardcore andmetal bands so he understands what that is supposed to be right you know and uh compared to fill in theblank you know mid 2000s like ringtone rapper that just stands there like holding the mic saying
01:42:19every like eighth word over a backing track and even the rappers like that are the greatest of alltime in my book like a Gucci man you know I think of you know it's basically one of the defining artists ofmy life when he performs live he walks back and forth and he puts his finger in the air right that's itright there's nothing else right every now and that and that'ssays one word.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Even if he's rapping like a decent percentage of it,it's just he's not really giving you that much of himself,
01:42:43which I respect as a businessman,the fact that he has this incredible careerand that he hasn't really had to like go get sweaty on stage ever.But, I mean, when you get like,just the vibe of a hardcore showwith all these kids trying to kill each otheris just the fucking best.Like that's just, and not even that.
01:42:59Just the playing of the instruments in all togetheris like you're just,it's really something to witnessin comparison to the rap thing.Yeah, I mean, the standard is just, like, so much higher in rock,and especially, like, in metal and hardcorewhere, you know, the level of, like, intensityand the shit's hard to play, you know,
01:43:16they just think about it differently than rappers do.I think to rappers, it's like a glorified club appearance.You know what I mean?They've got 85 people on stage, which I guess happens with hardcore too,but, you know, hardcore, it's a contest of, like,who can stand on the side of the stagelooking the most disinterested, you know,to prove how cool they are.
01:43:35Yeah, that is a weird.part is that some rap shows are like there's 80 people on stage with the rapper and then somerap shows are if you try to get on stage with the rapper for even a moment the security is goingto fucking manhandle you right right like very different vibes yeah i i've been to like a handful of rapshows but especially when i was most into that stuff i lived in cincinnati and it just wouldn'thave been a good idea to go see you know Gucci main and cincinnati in 2010 you know would not havebeen wise i could see it getting cracking there you yeahYeah. For sure. What are you most excited about in your life that you have going on right now?
01:44:12Or what are your goals going forward at this moment and stuff you're excited about?You know, it sounds corny, but the older I get, the more I just am grateful to be alive and healthy and have a family and people I care about.And the older I get, the more, like I saw you know, you posted about this.Congratulations on the family, by the way.Appreciate it, thanks.The older I get, the more I realize that the only thing that really matter,is spending time with the people you care about.You know, money and work and all that other stuff is cool and it's, you know, it's fun,
01:44:44but none of it matters unless you have like your health and people you care about.You know, how many people are there that have built an amazing business,but they're unhealthy and their marriage fell apart and their kids hate them because dad worked all the timeand didn't spend any time with them?And how do you think that person feels being 60 years old?with fucking $20 million in the bank,but they're pretty diabetic and their family hates them.Yeah, no, that's where I'm at 100% in the sense that five years ago or even, you know, a couple
01:45:18years ago, my mentality was 100%, like, how can I work more, how can I make more shit,how can I be more productive?And there's a time and a place for that.Right.And now I find myself more often thinking, you know, like, how can I, you know, maybe, like,I want to wake up earlier so I can like get more shit done, but also have like more.more time that I could just hang out with my kid.And I mean, my kid is five months.
01:45:39So it's like there ain't a lot that I'm like feeling like I'm missing out on.But I mean, it's only going to get worse over time where I'm going to feel like,holy shit.If I'm in the office 60 hours a week, maybe I'm missing out on something.And your kid's only going to be five months old once.Yeah.And you're never going to be able to get that time back.You know, and I think about, you know, like with my wife, I think about if I was
01:46:00on my deathbed or worse, if she was on her deathbed, I would give every fucking pennyI've ever had for like literally one more minute with her.Yeah.You know, in a fucking second for one minute.So why don't I take that minute now while I actually have it instead of, you know,regretting not having it in the future.So like she, she worked for Amazon for six years.She actually just quit her job last week to do YouTube full time.
01:46:25Oh wow.And so now we're able to spend all our time together and, you know, obviously we're makingless money than we would have before.But so what?You know, we have enough to live comfortably.do we need more?And what's better, you know, having tens of thousands of dollars more in the bank or spendingeight hours a day together?
01:46:43Right.I have a friend who had just recently realized that A, his wife is basically a billionaire becauseof her dad, like her dad was like some insanely successful business guy.And he works like, you know, probably 10 hours a day, Monday through Friday.And they don't have any.kids. And that was very confusingto me because I'm like, bro, if she got a billiondollars, what the fuck are you doing, not
01:47:11impregnating her? I like, listen, if shecan't or she really doesn't want to,I get it. But if she can,what the fuck are you doing? Andalso, that soundskind of crazy to be working that muchwhen you don't really have, like, andyou make good money, but, you know,
01:47:27your version of good money is obviously not touching whateverthe fuck she's got. But who cares?What's the difference? Really,I mean, I'm not rich by any means,but I have more money than I ever thought I would when I was a kid.And I think about what if I had twice as much money than I, as I do right now?Would it make me any happier?No, it wouldn't change my life at all.
01:47:44Maybe we could buy a bigger house, but for what?Yeah.It could buy a nicer car that my friends would pretend to be impressed by for 15 seconds.But for what?And when you're having a mental conversation about taking time off,I feel like maybe it's easier to justify working your house all the time.If you are the kind of person that always needs money for new cars and shit,It's like, what am I working my ass off for?
01:48:07I guess I don't care about the business and like making sure that everybody involved with it is straight.But at a certain point, it's like if I do another couple of interviews in a week, it's like, what is another couple of thousand dollars?Like what if it really is going to negatively impact my mental health, then I probably just need to start saying no to things at a certain point to maintain balance, you know?There's a time in your career where you should say yes to absolutely everything.Like, you know, when I graduate.When you're on zero.Yeah.When I graduated from college, I owed $90,000.
01:48:34You know, I had to fucking get out of that hole.I got out of that hole.There's a certain point at which then you need to start saying no to stuff for different reasons.And I'm happy that I'm at the point where, you know, saying no is the right answer.And so to answer your question I'm excited about is just being in that position and really I just want to spend as much time with the people I care about as I can and, you know, keep my health in a good place and just be present and be grateful for whatever is happening at the moment.Hell yeah. When's the last time you moshed?Oh, probably I went to go see the hatebreedPerseverance 20th anniversary tour or 10th, whatever it was, like 2011.
01:49:15I guess it was 10th, yeah, 10th anniversary.So 2011, I'm never a big mosher because I was, you know,around a lot of heavy-duty people and I don't want to,I don't want any part of that.When I look back on it, I almost feel like my fascination with hardcore almostmight have had more to do with the moshing than the music at times.You're a big guy.He probably got a good 30 or 40 pounds on me.
01:49:39You know, I'm not a big person.Yeah, but I think my obsession with it was less about doing itand more about just trying to understand why the fuck all these other people were doing itand why they were so into it.And like, you know, I just witnessed in Boston,I'm going to some really fucking crazy shit in mosh pits that I've never.Like, seeing Converge play Metal Fest,I think was probably by far the most violence I've ever seen
01:50:00in like an hour-long people.period and I've been around for like riots and shit and that I told I don't know if I believe that I told thisstory in a in a video but uh well I saw hate breed with a cannibal corpse in Cincinnati in like 2009 Ithink and at that time Cincinnati hardcore scene was super super violent and these are my friends whowere you know part of the violence so I wasn't personally at risk but at that time it was likereally gnarly and you know what would always happen.is they were all real into metal.So they would go see these metal bands.
01:50:35And some metal guy wouldn't understand what was happening.And he'd like push one of them and get the shit kicked out of them.And, you know, my friend had just gotten stabbed at a show a couple years before that and stuff.So it was like real violent.And I went to go see hate breed with Cannibal Corpse.And I was like, I'm literally afraid that somebody is going to get killed because someone had gotten killed at that venue before.And that's like the level of violence that happens at those kind of hardcore shows that you're talking about.you're like there's a non-zero chance that somebody's going to get killed.
01:51:03Right.And I'm not making light of that.It's just the,it's just reality.And so for that reason,just moshing,I'm not,I'm not,
01:51:10I'm not a risk-taking person for the most part.And so just like,I don't need to do this.Some people have like a desire to go fucking mosh when they see bands.I'd rather actually watch the band.So I thought,why I put myself in harm's way and,you know,
01:51:26potentially get my fucking jaw broken if I don't have to,I remember seeing this dude like just sort of like punching backwards into the crowd and he really went like boom boom and just like broke two people's noses sure like back to back boom boom blood spraying everywhere that meant that image will never leave my mind yeah I mean what exactly so like I've seen strangers complete strangers for people who are trying to understand what I'm talking about yeah there's if you don't understand it don't feel bad because it doesn't make any sense I've seen the same kind of thing happen a million times there's like I don't want to be that guy getting his nose brokenwho was just standing there watching the basisand then all of a sudden his nose exploded.There was a point of my life where I didn't go to a hardcore show for a long timeand then I went to a hardcore show.And as it was starting, someone just like jumps and just kicks my fucking head.And I just had a really strong feeling right there.
01:52:16The part of my life where this made a lot of sense to me might be over.Yeah, yeah.And, you know, if that's what you want to do with yourself, you know, go for it.But moshing, never a big thing for me.It's entertaining to watch though.You know, fighting the invisible goes.zombie ninjas. Yeah, when I see videos of people moshing online that I can't look away.There's so many things about hardcore getting back to what you're saying at the beginning
01:52:38where trying to explain it to like a sane person, you know, at a certain point, you just sortof trail off because you're like there's nothing I can say that's going to make this add up.I'm wondering what the fuck Laura is thinking for some of these parts of our conversationbecause she just doesn't know that version of me or she probably is surprised I even know thatmuch about this topic. And I just like, you know, if I were to like, I went through a periodin my life where I would go on YouTube here and there and type likeMosh Pit Fight and find some compilations and shit.And dude, you see some shit in those Mosh Pit fights,
01:53:09especially at big like radio station festivals and stuff.You see people interacting with each other in that environment and violently that youwould,I don't even,I would never know that any of these people existed.Right.Like the weirdest fucking people,particularly white people.
01:53:25I would never ever see you or know that you existed and you're in the Mosh Pitbeating the fuck out of some other obese person.For what?Or nothing.Rob Zombie plays.Rob Zombie does not give two shits about this fight that's happening like so far away from him.One of the scarier things that I experienced was I saw All Out War with, I want to say it was cold as life in Cleveland in 98 maybe, which is a scary enough prospect of those two bands playing together because both of them draw lots of scary mosh.But what was scary about it is this sketchy venue.
01:54:03I think it might have been the blind lemon, but I don't remember.It's in Cleveland, and it had like a glass, like dance floor, you know, like glass blocks.And everyone was like moshing and stuff.And I'm sure that, you know, nobody considered the fact that they were on a glass floor.It didn't break.But I was like, this is, you know, this is the kind of thing you end up seeing on the local news.Like, you know, seven youths injured today when a dance floor collapses.You're making me remember a lot of other traumatic images that I have in my head.
01:54:30like, see in Hebrew, they had to play under like a fake band name for a period of timebecause they're like on an official tour, I think, and then they're just playing random showsor there's like a festival that they're playing where they can't tour in this areaor some shit like that.And I'm just watching people Mosh and I saw a dude just like run from one side of the pitto the other and just dive and basically punch a fucking merch girl in the head.He dived over like 15, 20 feet of fucking people and somehow just, and the weirdest partabout it and part of what made me so fascinated by it was that it didn't seem like anyone thought he had done anything wrong or that this was like even though it was pretty obvious to be he was targeting hitting this person but somehow in the context of a mosh pit it's just okay well it depends who it is you know if he was a you know always you know what I mean if he was a maid man in the scene then everyone will apologize for him if not then they'll fucking beat up in an inch of his life you know depending on some important dude's girlfriend then he's gonna get the shit beat out of him yeah exactly exactly and it's you know just like high school lunch table
01:55:30politics, but with, you know, a mosh soundtrack.You know, and that's just, that's just part of the hardcore scene.People ask me about this a lot, you know, like in my comments, like, oh, what do you thinkabout crowd killing and crews and all this stuff?And my answer is always like, I think it's kind of dumb, but I don't really have anythingto say about it because it just is part of the scene.And for better or for worse, who am I to, you know what I mean?It's like criticizing dogs for licking their balls, like, just what they do.
01:56:00And if you don't like it, don't have a dog.And, you know, people may think that it's cynical of me to say,well, if you don't like that kind of stuff, don't go to hardcore shows.But nothing I say is going to change the fact that that stuff happens at hardcore shows.That's what it is.And if you don't like it, then, which is totally understandable.If you're saying you shouldn't like it.I'm like trying to imagine like a hip-hop commentator saying, like, there shouldn't be gangs and hip-hop.
01:56:23Yeah, right.It's like, all right, good luck, buddy.Exactly.It's like, well, yeah, probably not.Yeah, that would be great.I don't know what to tell you.Doesn't seem likely.Yeah.
01:56:32It just is.It's part of the thing.And, you know, just don't be part of the hardcore scene if you don't like it.And that's totally okay.For sure.I got a piece of a bed.I'm going to piss my pants.So, you know, I appreciate this conversation.
01:56:45That was really good.Thanks for having me.Thanks so much.Finn McKenzie.Am I saying it right?Yes, sir.Just wanted to make sure.Finn McKenzie, punk rock NBA.
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