No Jumper - The Joe Coscarelli Interview: Why He Wrote a Book About Lil Baby, QC & Atlanta's Rap World

Starting point is 00:00:00 No Jumper, coolest podcast in the world. And today we have Joe Coscarelli on the podcast. Thanks for having me. How are you doing, man? I've been all right. I've been a little crazy. Really? It's like 10 days.

Starting point is 00:00:12 So you basically wrote a book about, you know, one big focus is a little baby, but it's basically attempting to sort of document really a lot of the different Atlanta cultural institutions like QC and the Migos and Gucci Man and everything sort of surrounding the, that and yeah it was a good read read read it over the weekend when is it actually released came out tuesday october 18th it's out okay bookstores everywhere so what was the original impetus like to write a book these days you have to have a big idea you have to have something that you think is really important to expect people to take this much time out of their life to engage with this what was the thing that stood out to you that made you want to document this it was less of a big idea and more of a lot of little ideas so my day job at the new york times i cover the music industry and i cover

Starting point is 00:00:59 rap specifically because that's where everything interesting is happening. So over 2015, 2016, 2017, I just kept going back again and again to Atlanta, both physically and sort of spiritually. You saw just so much of the world turning to streaming, turning to YouTube, turning to online content and the churn of that. Like Atlanta had already been doing that with mixtapes and you know you had you had Gucci coming out of jail. You had migos blowing up. You had QC starting to build this thing where it wasn't only Migos, but then they found Lil Yadi and they made him a star in a different way. And I wrote about this lawyer, Drew Finling, who I learned about in the Gucci Main autobiography, who had helped get him both into jail and then out of jail in a smooth way. And then I realized that all these people were connected and that it was like a music scene in the proper sense.

Starting point is 00:01:54 Like I think, you know, like you've seen like the overlap between like punk and hardcore. and rap and the way that these things are considered so differently, but they function in a lot of the same ways, which is like in a specific place at a specific time with groups of people who are either working together or beefing, and amazing art comes out of all of that. Right. So, yeah, because I mean,

Starting point is 00:02:18 one thing that occurred to me while reading it is that a lot of this stuff, a lot of this lore, whether it's like the Gucci-Mane G-G-Z thing, which you like cover briefly because it would be kind of foolish for you to not cover a storyline as important. is that. But is there a mentality of like, okay, this is stuff that hasn't necessarily been

Starting point is 00:02:35 documented for a more literary crowd? Yeah, I think like rap is the biggest fucking music in the world. Right. And how many books are there about rap music? Right. Very few. You know, you have probably all of them in this office. And then how many books are there about Nirvana or Bob Dylan or the Beatles or even Green Day? Like we don't, like white music is covered. in books all the fucking time. Right. And yet nobody treats the most important music in the world like it's important. And I think I also wanted to cover this in real time.

Starting point is 00:03:11 Like I didn't want to write a history book. I didn't want to write only the story of Gucci Man and Young Jeezy and Outcast and Freaknik and So So Death. Like that had been done. But I wanted to take that blueprint and follow people as they tried to make their own way at this exact moment. So like the biggest influence on the whole book was hoop dreams because to me that's like one of the greatest documentaries of all time and one of the greatest pieces of art of modern era because you're following along as people try to make it and it doesn't matter whether they succeed or they fail. You're going to learn something along the way. So I didn't cover little baby because

Starting point is 00:03:51 he was the little baby that he is now in 2022. I met him in 2017 when he was nothing. He was thing. He was trying to make it work. And I was like, whatever happens to this guy, it's going to be fascinating. So I might as well get on the ride. Yeah. So how many of these different artists did you really take such an interest in that you spend a bunch of time with them? Because you have like Marlow, who of course becomes like a very, very good story for you to tell throughout the book because he's used as like an example of somebody who has this flirtation with fame. And then he kind of ends up getting sucked back into more of the violence that he came from. and then you even have somebody like Lil Rieke who has this again a flirtation with fame and then just basically like fades into irrelevance and then you have little baby who has you know some signs that he's ready for stardom and then actually capitalizes on it becomes gigantic yeah it's like like how many of these people were you spending time with or are these just the majority of the people you spent time I mean I got really lucky that when I thought of the sort of hoop dreams model to follow people in real time I knew I was going to tell the story of coach MP the guys who founded you.

Starting point is 00:04:57 QC together because through them you get so much of Atlanta you can trace coach K back to pastor Troy Gucci young Jeezy megos et cetera he is like the guy right in the scene over the last 20 years 20 plus years and then I knew you would have a little bit of dungeon family in there because you can get directly from dungeon family to future which is insane right think about the connections but when I came to actually following artists in real time I got super lucky I just rolled the dice I knew baby. I had spent a little bit of time with him. I wrote about him in the New York Times. I liked his energy. I thought his music was improving very quickly. And then he came up with Marlowe. They put out a mixtape very early on. Right. They had some chemistry. They knew each other

Starting point is 00:05:43 from the streets. They signed to QC at basically the same moment. And I just felt like Marlowe was like an archetype of an Atlanta guy that, you know, maybe didn't scan right away as a national star to people, but really commanded respect locally, really knew what he was talking about, really came from, you know, in his case, Bowen Holmes, which is a legendary Atlanta projects. Right.

Starting point is 00:06:06 And Marlow fits this like, interesting Atlanta archetype that, you know, I'm so used to it that when I'm reading you describe it in the book, it's almost like odd for me to see it describe because I'm so used to it, but he's basically like a famous drug dealer around town.

Starting point is 00:06:23 Yeah. And then he essentially tries to convert that into rap, which is like what a gigantic percentage of guys like this end up trying to do. And he doesn't necessarily have the skills as a rapper to become a huge star. And you compare him at one point to Rollo, who's like same thing. Who's his cousin? Right, who, which is insane. Put out a few records that people fucked with and stuff and they're able to make themselves look big for a period of time.

Starting point is 00:06:45 But then ultimately, it's like they're really more of a street guy than a rap guy. But Rollo in Atlanta is a celebrity. Right. That is a street legend. that is like a Hall of Fame trapper in this world. And so many of those guys have gone on to stardom. You know, someone like Little Baby, same thing. Legendary in the streets, not only for selling weed, but for gambling, for shooting dice.

Starting point is 00:07:09 And when you think of a scene like Atlanta that is so much about mythology and lore and authenticity, like these guys who had a national or had a local reputation first were able to take that national. even back to like GZ and BMF and TI to some extent. You know, people who we think of now we don't even imagine them as local first. But like the thing that is so special about Atlanta and the reason I think they've been able to take the belt back over and over again as like the champion of rap is because it has this grassroots start. Right. I mean, there's so many things I want to talk to about this, but this is just at the front of my mind. there's a whole little arc

Starting point is 00:07:50 a little narrative about how at a certain point QC is just really like flooding the market and you've seen this approach with a lot of different artists and labels over the years whether it's like G unit or diplomats where it's like they're hot at one point and they just decided to just absolutely flood the market with as much shit as possible

Starting point is 00:08:07 and then you reach a point where and I mean the Migos were like especially vulnerable to this because a lot of times lyrically they don't have that much depth and they already had maybe like by the time that Bad and Bougy took off it's like they already had maybe used up a lot of their creative juice that might seem new to the audience over a period of time. But then at a certain point, the audience just becomes completely inundated

Starting point is 00:08:29 with this shit and they just lose interest. And it's kind of like, you know, I was thinking about what I would want to do if I was like a consultant or a manager involved in that. And I think I would like really urge them to at least production wise to just start taking huge risks that sound nothing like the stuff that's really popular on a day-to-day basis. I think that if you really want to stand out in a situation like how they found themselves at that point that it could really be useful to them to just like go really outside like I think a new sound sonically would have been like the thing that QC needed at that time in a sense and yet they just didn't do that or they flirted with it at various moments but I think when you think back to culture like Migos has

Starting point is 00:09:10 regenerated so many times and I think people didn't think they had it in them right even the the bad and bougie moment they had been declared dead like Years before that. Many times. They put out 10, a dozen mixtapes before they ever put out a debut album. Then they put out a debut album and it's just pre-streaming. So it flops. They survived the Drake hype wave too where like, you know, Blockboy J.B.

Starting point is 00:09:32 couldn't continue on with his career at a certain point because the Drake's spotlight was just too big. Migos somehow managed to that. And when you think about culture, which is really the moment they broke through to the mainstream, I do think culture was sonically different enough. I think the main thing they did was like they slowed down a little bit. The beats sounded a little bit more expensive. There was more empty space. The track list was short, which you've never really seen with them.

Starting point is 00:09:57 And then they just sort of said, fuck it again. But that's because they're punks. Like they just do what they want. Right. And they're just confident that if they do it enough times, you're either going to get it or you're not. But something will click with someone. And it's just not precious. And I think, you know, when they tried to branch out and remember,

Starting point is 00:10:17 like stir fry with feral like i feel like that stuff like that is them trying to you know trying to find a new sonic lane and it just doesn't interest them and i almost respect that more that they're just going to stick to their sound again like to me megos are the romones right like they're just going to play the same chords over and over and over again this is true yeah and and you'll like it or you won't but like what are they what are they going to like the romones are going to go in the studio with phil specter like no thank you but i feel like the romans are are not concerned with how popular they are, or at least like as a punk band,

Starting point is 00:10:51 you're supposed to keep up that image. Whereas with the Migos, it's, you know, you, as their career has sort of started and take a dive, you see them being salty with QC.

Starting point is 00:11:01 You see them all of a sudden involved in feuds with a little baby and other people. And like, at least you sort of get the vibe that them not being on top doesn't sit right with them. And I think that's why a lot of people kind of like to rub it in

Starting point is 00:11:12 that they're maybe not in the spot right now that they were five years ago. But think about how much good music they've put out in the last 10 years. Right. There's dozens of Migos projects. Maybe you don't like all of them. Maybe you don't like most of them.

Starting point is 00:11:26 But if you stack up every good song they've made and every good moment they've made, memes, you know, interviews, just culturally impactful little moments. Yeah. They have as robust of a career as as anyone. And I think the other thing is rap is so onto the next one. It's such a young man's game that there's almost nothing. thing they could do to be relevant 10 years into their career. They could be making, they could be making good kid mad city at this point and people would still be like migos are washed. The best thing

Starting point is 00:11:57 you can really hope for at a certain point in a rapper's career is to be considered like competent, you know, foot soldiers, like even like a Gucci or businessmen. Right. That, that's like the most important thing because I was thinking about a lot when I was reading the QC section of your book and realizing like how how close P and Gucci were, which, you know, I've seen them together in real life a bunch of times and stuff. So I know that. But when you see Gucci going so hard to put his label together and he's had a lot of, you know, pretty blatant failures and he's had some success stories that then like pretty quickly turn into failures because the people get locked up. But I think to Gucci, he looks at what P and Coach Kay have done. And that's, to him, that's just like

Starting point is 00:12:35 the ultimate thing that he needs to achieve to be a CEO and to be talked about it. Because I think Gucci's always kind of had a little bit of a chip on his shoulder about Jay-Z. I think he wants to be talked about like Jay-Z. He says. He's more or less said that a few times, and it's kind of like, I think in order to really truly stamp yourself as entrepreneur and hip hop, you pretty much need to go there. It's a question of stability. And I think that QC gets overlooked for how stable they've been. Think of a rap label. How many rap labels have churned out that many national stars?

Starting point is 00:13:06 It's true. They have an extremely good percentage. You know, you think back to a no limit or a cash money. Cash money is probably the example. And these are the two places that are the real blueprints for that. But then even a G unit, you have 50, you have game who's tangential, right? He's not even from New York. He was with him for like a year.

Starting point is 00:13:25 And then what? It's banks. Banks and Buck had their little time, Tony Yeo to a certain extent. But that's not the same. Yeah, it's like, you know, five, six friends of 50s, essentially. Exactly. Or ASAP mob. You have Rocky and Ferg and.

Starting point is 00:13:40 And that's pretty much it. But QC was able to turn Migos into Yos. Yadi into baby city girls and then all of the other tangential people like these are real national independent stars like they function without one another and I think and but they also function together as this sort of Voltron and I think that that's like it's a it's a it's a crazy run when you really lay it all out it is and it deserves to be documented in such a way when you decided to do this you have to take a absence from your day job or how much time did you think that this was going to take you? I basically did it all together

Starting point is 00:14:19 at the same time. One of the great things about working at the New York Times is that I could do little pieces along the way. So I did a, before the book, I did a Yadi story. I did a Migo story. I did a QC as a label story. That was sort of the basis of the book along with a few other things here and there. And then, for instance, I did an interview with Little Baby. When my turn came out, February 2020, I went there. I did a Q&A with him. But I had way more than I put. in the paper so I save the rest of it. You know, I did an offset solo story when he put out his solo album in that, in that moment. And that allowed me to go to the tour with Drake and, you know, see them, see them do their

Starting point is 00:14:57 hometown show, which becomes a big part of the book that I barely wrote about at the time. But I was able to sort of store the information. So I was just reporting for years. So basically, you know, thinking back 2017 to 2020, I was just gathering information. And then when I actually sit down and wrote it, I happened to take four months of unpaid book leave from the Times. And it was February to June of 2020. Right. Coincidentally. And then I sit down to write the book and all of a sudden everything's shut down and I had literally nothing else to do. Right. But tie together all these years of material. Right. That must have been pretty convenient.

Starting point is 00:15:32 Yeah. I mean, I don't think I would have gotten it done without COVID. But how difficult was the access for you to pull off? Because rappers are, you know, traditionally very difficult to wrangle to spend time with. They definitely are not operating on the hours that you would probably prefer to be working. The two things that helped are one, the New York Times just opens doors. Having an at NY Times email account, people just respond to you. It means something to people who don't even read the New York Times in the same way that a Rolling Stone does or maybe a no jumper these days. You know, like people just get that that's a brand. So the access is there on that end.

Starting point is 00:16:06 The other thing is that I started reporting on people who weren't famous. Marlowe never really became famous So when I would come down to Atlanta I had a relationship with QC and their people And I would say, hey, let Marlowe know I'm coming to town And he would just come pick me up And we would just drive around for a normal day And to me you could learn more about a person

Starting point is 00:16:26 Just rolling around going to the mall and hanging out And going to a barbecue, going to the barbershop Than if we were to sit down at a fancy hotel And like have a lunch and have an hour of question answer Question answer. I just wanted to see how these guys lived And then someone like Lil Rieke, who's, to me, as important of a character in the book as anybody famous. It tells a very important story that, to be honest, like, you humanized it in a way that I don't really get to see because I never had any of the L'Reeke, but if I had, it probably would have been like 2018. Right at the moment.

Starting point is 00:16:57 Yeah. And then I probably would have not really ever heard of him from besides maybe seeing some tweets or something along the way. And, you know, the sort of picture that you paint of him just sort of being lonely and feeling kind of useless and not really. knowing what to do with himself after he's had this flirtation with fame. He can't just go get a day job or anything. But at the same time, he has nothing in front of him that he's going to really be able to monetize with. Except his creativity.

Starting point is 00:17:22 And you hope that a kid like that will continue going at it and trying over again because you've seen guys not make it the first time or the second time, but then something hits on the third or fourth. But to me, that was an important story to tell because especially in this streaming gold rush where just like in Seattle, after Nirvana hit, all the major labels come swooping in and they just throwing money around and they want to sign anyone who has any connection to anyone who's vaguely famous. And I think Little Rieke was probably a product of that era where you have an ambitious producer like Brindinsky who essentially like sees him and thinks that

Starting point is 00:17:55 this is going to be my little pump. This is going to be my six nine. Like this kid has that sort of appeal. And he, you know, he did have some appeal, but it didn't really pan out to be the kind of thing that he probably wanted it to be. But I think when you follow an artist like that, the more specific you can get in his story, it also, it becomes universal because there are so many people who have been chasing the dragon of rap stardom and most of them don't make it. Like most, I mean, even most of the rappers who have sat with you. Like, they might have a, they might have a split second of notoriety of fame. They might have one hit. They might have half a hit. They might have three hits, but that's not a career. Yeah. And then what do they do? And to me, I've always wanted to bring

Starting point is 00:18:36 this to my coverage. Like, I write about pop stars. I write about rappers. I write about rock bands. But I want to know what happens after somebody goes viral. Like after people stop paying attention, then what? Right. What's the vibe with you and these street dudes? Somebody like Marlow, when it's just you and him driving around, is he mostly telling you about himself? Is he asking you about your life at all? And then once you're around 10 dudes like this, are you just like a fly on the wall where they're basically wrapped up in their own fucking universe? It's very fly on the wall. I think. you know somewhere like Atlanta which has had such a vibrant music scene for so long you know this I you know I walk around the mall with these guys and and and it assumed that I'm

Starting point is 00:19:16 somebody's manager or somebody's A&R from the label I'm from the fader you know from no jumper like like like and I write about this in the book and I don't name myself specifically but it's built into the thing there's always been white guys on the periphery of hip hop whether it's a DJ a writer a photographer a video director a label executive and it's a symbiotic relationship. I'm getting something out of it. You're getting something out of it. Hopefully it's not exploitative.

Starting point is 00:19:43 Hopefully you're not going to end up a culture vulture, which I know probably both of us have been accused of at various points in our career. But I think if you continue to show that you're engaged and interested in the art and you care about these people and what they have to say, and also you want to use whatever platform you have, whether it's a podcast or a newspaper or a book deal,

Starting point is 00:20:01 to shine a light on something that is legitimately important. Like this world, like there's no more impactful music culture over the last 10, 20 years than what these guys are doing. So we might as well put a fucking microscope to it, put a spotlight on it. And I think people got that right away. They were like, you really want to see where we live. And when I go down there now, even though I'm not reporting anymore, I run into people and they say, oh, like, Joe came to bankhead. Joe came to Bowen Holmes Day. Not to like shoot some, you know, sensationalized like, ooh, look at, look at this poverty.

Starting point is 00:20:39 Because the hood vlogs are already a cliche, you know. The hood blogs are already a cliche. But if you want to actually spend time there and get to know people and hear their stories, like people respond to that. Everyone just wants to be listened to and acknowledge, especially when they're doing something that's important. Right. I know that you had a lot of shit that you saw that you were conflicted about whether it should be printed or not. There's a lot of stuff that you were privy to. And there was some stuff that made it into the book that I was a little bit surprised by.

Starting point is 00:21:07 But what's your mentality on that when you're, you know, hearing people talk about violence or drugs or criminality, all kinds of stuff that realistically, you know, you could be put in somebody in danger by documenting it. Like, tell me about what it's like making these decisions. I mean, obviously I thought about it every day. I thought about it. Every time I sat down to write, I talked a lot about it with my editors, with my friends, you know, with lawyers. But I think at the end of the day, like if you're a journalist, if you're a reporter in the sense of, you know, you don't work for anybody else. There's not an authorized tale. Nobody signed off on this stuff.

Starting point is 00:21:42 I wrote what I saw. And I felt like that is worthwhile because it is true. And I think ultimately, especially with social media, there's very little that I'm uncovering that people don't already know. You know, someone asked. But by being around them, you definitely could uncover a lot of stuff that you wouldn't necessarily be able to. find out from just being on YouTube, right? I think that's true to an extent, but if you go back and think of something like the YSL indictment, and you read the court papers now and you watch the hearings, and then you go

Starting point is 00:22:12 back to YouTube videos that were published two years ago, and that shit is already laid out. The case is there. Like, when people say, oh, are you dry snitching? Like, are you going to get these people in trouble? I'm like, you don't think the cops are on Reddit? Like, you don't think the cops have fake accounts and are on people's Instagram stories. Right. People are not exactly discreet. Some people are. You know, there are people who you would never be able to tell their business just by lurking online. But so much of today's culture, in rap and beyond, people are telling on themselves. People are documenting one another. Like, I just think what I did was like I put it all in one place. Right. But what I think I also did was provide context and humanity and reality. So it's not just YouTube monster. of gun, gun, gun, mean.

Starting point is 00:23:04 You know, I'm talking about who these people are, where they come from, and why they've made the choices that they've made. So I think hopefully when you take all of that into account, you're learning about, you're learning about humans. You're not just like finding little scandals. Right. Yeah. No, you definitely humanize everybody in this book so much.

Starting point is 00:23:25 But there's one part where it's Marlowe, right, and he's having a conversation with his father. he sees him for the first time in a while and he confides in him that he killed the man. Yeah. That was some heavy shit. Did you witness that or do you hear about the second hand? So this came after. I mean, someone like Marlowe, spoiler alert, I mean, I think anyone who knows who Marlowe is

Starting point is 00:23:44 or will be listening to No Jumper knows that he was killed in the summer of 2020. And that as always, as a reporter, it shakes a lot loose. People are no longer worried about secrets. You know, people speak in euphemism a lot about. these street guys who are active or who have been active pretty recently. Same thing with King Vaughn. Ever since he passed, everybody's much more open about it. And it was important to me after I thought I was done reporting and then he's killed.

Starting point is 00:24:13 And then I found his father. I found his girlfriend. And we had real in-depth conversations. And they wanted people to know the good and the bad of him. And the same thing, you know, I tell the story of Shardie Lowe in the book via some people who grew up with him and who knew him. And it's the same thing. I think since he's past, people are willing to tell you the good stories, but also the ugly stories. And, you know, Marlowe's dad was not at all ashamed of the life that he had lived or the life that his son had lived. I think he knows that it was tragic, but he was extremely eloquent in speaking about how and why that came to pass. Right. And I think, you know, again, like I don't go too much into depth about the circumstances.

Starting point is 00:24:59 of his killing. Nobody's been charged with it. I think a lot of people know who did it. You know, people speculated about it online every day, even still. But you paint a picture of what it was like where he was just coming under fire over and over. Like the people who wanted to kill him were not going to stop. And that to me was more important than the specifics, right? It was painting this picture of a life where your consequences are catching up to you at this moment when you're almost outrunning them. And that's the whole, that, like, that's why he was such an important character to me as an archetype, not because he was the best artist in the world, or not because he was the best drug dealer in the world, but because he was representative of a time and a place and coming from

Starting point is 00:25:43 what he did and always in, you know, always struggling to outrun his circumstances. Yeah, I mean, there's just so much being said in that one little exchange of, and I, I just found myself reading it like four or five times just trying to picture Marlowe just choosing to tell his father that he had killed someone like almost just casually like after not seeing him for a while and then his dad sort of just shrugging it off

Starting point is 00:26:09 and trying to move past it. Yeah. His dad says like I don't want to know because that's oh that's my son either way and he could tell that the walls were closing in on him but he wasn't he he didn't need the details because it didn't matter because this is just this this was this was day-to-day life like this was a reality. That's just

Starting point is 00:26:25 heavy shit. It's heavy shit that it was that normal to him and that his dad was able to just sort of like yeah i don't need to hear about that you know but look this is like to me this is also timeless like this is greek tragedy this is mafia stories like people have always been fascinated by these things and i also wanted to make people like look it in the face like because you you you see hip hop you see rap you see street rap getting getting demonized getting villainized in this way where it's oh like this is hypermasculine hyperviolent It's like, you know what's hypermaskin and hyperviolent? Like the fucking odyssey, like the fucking godfather.

Starting point is 00:27:01 You know what I mean? Like, this is like the Bible. You know? Like these are like these are timeless stories just in a different, in a different setting. Right. Yeah, but is it hard for you to not approach it with this sort of like sentimental, sappy, you know, uh, asterisk attached to some of this stuff where some of the stuff was so sad, Especially when you're thinking about all these young people being killed that already have kids and stuff, that it's it's kind of tempting for you to want to as a writer maybe like add some little like, you know, section of the book where you're just talking about how we need to stop the violence or whatever.

Starting point is 00:27:40 Is your style of writing to be more of just a documentarian and not try to insert too much of opinion into stuff? I think there's something about being a newspaper reporter where you learn to just let the facts speak for themselves and let people make up their own decision. let people make up their own minds, let people come to their own conclusions about whether rap music is good for the world or bad for the world. Like, I'm not interested in that. If I wanted to write an essay, if I wanted to write a polemic where I'm arguing something, you know, I would do a different job. Like to me, you know, of course there's analysis in the book. My opinion is baked into every choice that I make. But I was, I didn't even write about myself. Like, I'm sure you notice. Like, I could have been like, here I am, you know, 30 year old

Starting point is 00:28:24 white guy from New York, like standing in the projects. Like, but that, to me, that's not interesting. I wanted to absorb as much as possible and then filter it through, you know, my ideas about storytelling and whatever, but also let people speak for themselves. Like the book is really heavy on quotes and people talk how they talk. People say what they're going to say. And I'm not there to, to tell you what it means necessarily. Right. Like, you know, I think it's as a, important to just present stuff in as objective of a way as possible and let people make up their own minds. Right. Why did you choose to put such emphasis on Little Baby aside from the fact that he's pretty much the biggest star to emerge from Atlanta over the past over many years? Honestly,

Starting point is 00:29:09 like his mom was a huge part of it. When I met his mom and we had a really in-depth conversation, you know, she, she sat down with me. Little Baby was pretty famous, but my turn hadn't come out yet, So he wasn't like this superstar. And she said to me, she was like, you know, I asked Dominique, her son, you know, what do I tell him? And he said, tell him everything. And so she did. And she told me her whole life story. And it just connected with me on a human level.

Starting point is 00:29:37 And I think baby's another one where like he is, I don't know if you ever spoken with him. Like he's so fucking smart. Like he's always a step ahead. He's always thinking. But because he's a southern rapper, because he's, you know, a little bit shy, because he has this accent. You know, he, he, he speaks in a certain way. Like, you might not realize right away, you know, how the, how the wheels are turning or how much he's been through. But I think if you really listen to the music, it's in there.

Starting point is 00:30:04 Right. And I think seeing him at certain moments, like, disarmed. Like, I always talk about this one, this one moment, which happened late 2017, you know, my dog was just blowing up, like, his first, his first single that went sort of national. And I was in the backseat of P's car. And we pulled up to Magic City at like 3 p.m. to like get just get some food, like just get some wings. And, and I was in the back seat. Baby was in the front seat. And P. reached over into baby's pockets and like pulled out this big stack of cash. And he was like, this is why it's so hard to get him to focus because like this is the money he can make in the streets every day. And he's not making this much money in music, but I'm telling him eventually he will. And I asked baby, I was like, is this convincing to you? Like, does this work? And he was like, sometimes. Like, he's like, not really. He was like, I think he said he was like, I'm like, I believe it like 15% right now. And then he just went on this monologue where he's basically arguing with himself and it ends one of the chapters. It ends one of the sections of the book, I think.

Starting point is 00:31:04 And he's, you know, he's he's so conflicted, right? And he was open about how conflicted he was. And to see him like think in real time like that was like it doesn't matter if he becomes the number one selling rapper in the country. he's thinking about it on such a level and he's going through something and he's willing to in glimpses let me in to that process. And to me that was enough to say like again, it doesn't matter what you think of a little baby. Like I think hopefully this book works whether or not you know who these guys are or care about their music. Right. It's just like it's it's a human story and it and it's important because it's happening all over the place.

Starting point is 00:31:46 Right. In rap and outside of rap. Like these are these are. These are creative people from tough circumstances trying to figure something out and letting you in on that journey. I felt like there was one scene that you described that you were around for that if you had iPhone footage of it, it would have like 20 million views on YouTube. But it's basically like little baby like reprimanding one of his friends for being on too many drugs. So you know, it's crazy. I didn't even see that.

Starting point is 00:32:11 That is online. There is a clip of that. There's a clip of that. Oh, whoops. And that's how, but that's how not like there's so. Like there's so much, this is another reason I wanted to write the book because there's so much rap ephemera out there. There's so much insane footage that of all of these famous people and non-famous people. But there's just, there's too much content and people don't see it.

Starting point is 00:32:33 Right. And when I saw that, it was something, again, these are guys I'd been around. These are people I'd met. I could name everybody in the video. I knew exactly where they were sitting. But it was only like passed around on local blogs. Maybe it's, maybe it's on YouTube somewhere. I don't even know, but someone needed to put all this shit in one place because it's important.

Starting point is 00:32:51 And there's another one that's mentioned in the book, again, that I wasn't there for, is Drake telling DJ drama that Migos are going to be big. Right. Like that's on, there's like a DJ drama vlog somewhere. I think, you know, it has, it has like maybe like a couple thousand views. Right. Nobody's seen it. But it's from before Drake met Migos at birthday bash and drama's talking about who he's going to bring out on

Starting point is 00:33:14 stage. Right. And he's like, oh, what about? Like someone's like what about these guys the Migos and everyone's like oh like don't let us down like that like don't don't bring them out like they suck and Drake's like no no I'm I'm just telling you guys like this is a wave really this is a wave and he's he's making the case for Migos pre Versacei wow and and this kind of shit is out is floating around out there and like maybe the super fans have seen it but like it's not it's not preserved for the history books and that's why I think about that all the time when there's just like a TikTok or a YouTube short. of some interaction with rappers or somebody not shaking a hand with somebody else as they pass by each other. And it's just like, it's so interesting.

Starting point is 00:33:56 It tells you so much about where they were at at that moment in their life. And this shit is just completely lost in the ether where like how is anybody going to attempt to make sense of this 10 or 20 years from now? And that's so much of rap history. Think about all the mix tapes that aren't available on streaming services.

Starting point is 00:34:12 Think about all the YouTube videos that were on a random director's change. who then took it down because they got arrested or whatever it was. Like there's just so, so much of rap history is ephemeral and has not been cataloged in a proper way. Like there needs to be a million of these books. Like Chief Keefe, Chicago Drill, you know, Memphis, three six mafia, the dipset run you mentioned you alluded to earlier. Like none of this stuff is, and it's not that it only matters if like somebody writes about it in a hardcover book, but like, again, how are people going to access this stuff?

Starting point is 00:34:48 Like to me, one of the most important parts of my book is like the sources. Like flip to, like, don't even read the book. Flip to the end and read every article, every YouTube video, every, you know, comment section that's like cited in the back because that, like, that stuff is important. Right. But so what's the most recent time that you've spent with a little baby? So I facetined him I did like an adapted excerpt from the book in the New York Times that came out on Sunday

Starting point is 00:35:18 So he's like happy to see you About him and his mom What's cool about You spent that much time around each other I mean what's cool about baby is like he'll always remember That like I was there first And I told him that I believed in him Right and like

Starting point is 00:35:29 I can vouch for that That if you sink your tentacles in early That rappers You're the king of that We'll show you a lot of love in situations Where if you meet them once they're already famous they might just genuinely not give a fuck and let you know they don't give a fuck yeah i've told this story before but uh i i ran i was interviewing one of his friends at the studio and i hadn't seen

Starting point is 00:35:48 him in a while and i have been trying to get to his mom this was before i interviewed his mom but i knew i wanted to speak with her and and i finally ran into him you know he pulled up as i was pulling out and he was like oh man i'm like oh you've come such a long way he was like it's so good to see you blah blah like he knew he knew maybe he doesn't know my last name he certainly might not know how to spell it, but like he knows, he knows my face and he knows who I am and what I represent. And I was like, man, I'm really trying to get in touch with your mom. Will you please put her number on my phone? And I, I handed in my phone. And, you know, he is like, oh, yeah, sure, like, she'd love to talk to you, whatever. And then the next day, I texted her. I'm like,

Starting point is 00:36:24 nervously waiting for her to text me back, you know, Mrs. Jones, like, this is so-and-so. I wrote about your son. And no response, no response, you know, 12 hours, 15 hours. Finally, I get a text back. And it's like, no, no, this is baby. like I'll put you on with her now. Right. So he felt comfortable enough that he put his number in my phone when that's not even what I was asking for. Right.

Starting point is 00:36:45 And so it's that kind of thing where I think, you know, in the same way that I appreciate him as a source, he appreciates me as somebody who has engaged with his work from the beginning. So I pha-time with him the week the album came out maybe like two weeks ago now. And, you know, he was busy, but he always will give me the time because he knows that I was there. But what differences do you see in his personality now that, like, you saw him when he was directly being like pulled back into doing crime and selling drugs? And now he's in a position where that would never be a consideration. But meanwhile, his freedom and staying out of trouble and shit are definitely his biggest concerns. Like you're even talking about at one point how, you know, he's rushing into the studio with a gun in his waistline, even though he's a felon and he's not supposed to be carrying a gun.

Starting point is 00:37:35 And you see this online. Like you see these guys on Instagram, you know, like clutching because they're, they're that scared for their lives. And I think, you know, I think baby seems comfortable. I don't, I don't, he's not my friend. I don't know him intimately. But I think, you know, I think you see, you see more peace in someone like that. But it's also stressful.

Starting point is 00:37:54 It's always stressful. And he said that to me. He said that to me in 2020. He said that to me in 2022. He's like, look, life's always going to be a struggle. It's not the same struggle that it was. I'm not struggling, you know, for my mother to pay her. bills anymore but like people always want something from you like he i thought he was really eloquent

Starting point is 00:38:10 in in the times i've spoken to him about fame and about uh what what that's like and you know you don't want to be the guy who's bitching about being rich and famous but somebody's always wants something from you and that's stressful yeah i mean you point out a pretty good uh anecdote about what it's like to be a rapper or be around a rapper at a certain point in their career where you've been to all the nicest stores and restaurants and clubs and you've done essentially everything there is to do so that this leaves very few things for a rapper to really pursue besides like the drugs that they're trying to get on a given day maybe girls coming over but even at a certain point like most of the girls in town you've already met or whatever and there's just this sort of monotony and

Starting point is 00:38:55 I know this feeling well like being around rappers and they have essentially the ability to do everything in the entire world and they're aware of it and they're flirting with the idea of doing it but then in reality they're playing 2k on the couch being famous is really fucking boring and that's like what i was trying to underline there because like you can't just be out on the street most of the time especially if you're if you're a guy who's worried about his safety in any way and and we see it over and over again with you know rappers who have lost their lives just by posting on instagram and if you're somebody rebellious as little baby who i don't think He's willing to just have a security guard with him 24-7.

Starting point is 00:39:34 They don't like that. That's not fun. That's not cool to be six-nine. Like you don't have any friends, but you have seven security guards. And that's fucking expensive on top of everything. I think the real place you see a lot of these guys letting go and having fun is on vacation when you can get really far away. Like baby loves four-wheeling, like out in the country with his kids. You know, they love like jet skiing.

Starting point is 00:39:58 You know, you see whenever you see guys in Miami. And like, you know, you'll see like little dirk, you know, on a jet ski. And they're just like having the time of their lives because there's nobody around to bother them. There's nobody putting a phone in their face. There's nobody asking them for something. And that's what real, real wealth can get you is like peace. Yeah. But I think, you know, at the same time, like you want to be home.

Starting point is 00:40:24 You want to be around your family. You want to be in the places that mean something to you. And it's not easy. I think like, you know, whether you're Britney Spears or Taylor Swift or Beyonce or your little baby or a little dirk or, you know, pop smoke. Like it's really hard to to have constant eyes on you, constant attention and it's really lonely. One time I interviewed, this is totally separate, but I interviewed Averill Levine like late in her career. And she told me she didn't remember the last time she had been alone. like you know whether it's going to the drugstore you know there's always somebody in her house

Starting point is 00:41:02 whether it's an assistant or a cleaner or security just couldn't remember the last time that she was truly alone right and just so many of the things that you or even i at a you know reasonable level of fame would want to think about doing are just kind of out the window when you're a little baby or they just become these immense high pressure affairs like little baby going to a restaurant is just way different than you or I going to a restaurant or even at Avril Lavigne, I guess she's probably at that level where it's like, you know, all the punk shows or, you know, local concerts or whatever that she might want to go to. Her going to that is a fucking thing. It's a whole, it's bring, there's an advance team like your Obama or something, you know? Like, it's just life like, and I'm saying like boo hoo famous people, like that, you know, these people have more money than God. They've achieved their wildest dreams. Like it's, it's great on. some level, but it's not, like, it's not a human way to live. Right. It's not what you're used to.

Starting point is 00:42:01 Sometimes you see these famous people. They just want to turn it off and they can't. And that drives people insane. And I also think it affects the art because we're always like, you know, oh, why is Jay-Z only rap about his baskiats and his portfolio? And it's like, because you won't let him live a normal life. Like, well, you know, and I think that that's part of the reason rap regenerates. so much is because once you make it to a certain level, you're only really, the only thing

Starting point is 00:42:29 you can rap about is your success or your distant memories of struggle, but it's not relatable anymore. And for a genre that's like about young people for young people and about struggle and overcoming struggle, like you need that immediacy for it to really hit. So that's why like going back to someone like Migos, like what are they really going to say at this point that's going to connect with their audience? Especially when they're over. relying ethos as people is basically like this code of silence like they actually in reality if the migos wanted to put in an album like takeoff and quavo as the case probably is right now and they wanted to air offset out talk about how they don't like cardy b talk about their issues with qc talk about all

Starting point is 00:43:14 the other rappers that disrespected them or whatever that they don't like uh talk about suedey it's not worth it takeoff could talk about his uh sexual assault little thing that seems like it went away a way that you talked about. It's just not worth it. But they could, they could actually be a version of themselves. They have so much interesting shit to talk about. But why have I not listened to the most recent Migos album?

Starting point is 00:43:35 Because I just assume when I click on it, it's going to be a bunch of shit about Berkins and whatever the fuck they talk about. Like, I just, you know, it seemed exciting around bad and bougie era. And it just slowly has been kind of slipping off since then. But I mean,

Starting point is 00:43:47 what would a, what would a rap tell all be worth, right? You would get a week's worth of no jumper on academics posts. about the gossip. Well, they could have a hot album off that. They could have a maybe. It would at least make their music look like it was really popular at a certain moment in time, even though it would probably wear off pretty quick.

Starting point is 00:44:05 Who's the best tell all rapper? Like, you know, it's like, the answer is Taylor Swift. You know what I mean? Because at least she's going to like, she's going to talk about an X and you're going to be able to know which X she's talking about in detail. I feel like when Tori Lanes put out that album instead of issuing a statement about Megan, that that was kind of like the ultimate usage. of that strategy. But is it true? You know, you can't trust that. Yeah, no, totally. But

Starting point is 00:44:30 like, it was just such an audacious thing to do to just put out an album about the thing that everybody wanted to hear a talk about instead of just talking about it. But nobody's listening to today. No, yeah, but at the same time, people swear by that shit. They love it. It's really not my bag, so I really don't know. But I mean, a lot of people like it a lot. I don't know. Tell all rap. I mean, maybe you're inventing a new genre. Like, let's somebody try it. But it's risky. It's risky and I don't know that it's worth it. And I think Migos were conscious to that when they put out the solo projects. There was like in a real attempt for them to at least say in interviews that like, oh, my, our projects are going to have us going more in depth and talking about whatever.

Starting point is 00:45:07 But don't you feel like little baby is kind of suffering with some of the same stuff where he's so successful now that him talking about being broke sounds kind of silly? He can't really talk about street shit where like he used to be a little bit more talking about that stuff. If he talks about violence, he kind of is just a. assuming it's going to be used in the RICO that, you know, everybody's afraid could come down one day. So he's in kind of a weird spot where, you know, he dissed academics twice on the album. And a lot of people kind of saw that as his like TMZ attention grab. Like you can't really diss like rappers that you're beefing with, but you can disemedia figure to get some conversation going, right?

Starting point is 00:45:44 I mean, it's really tough because this is music that is both autobiographical and fictionalized. It's both about, you know, real struggle and real, and exaggerated struggle, real success, exaggerated success. And, and yeah, you run out of, you run out of material. But look, this is my, my controversial take on music in general is basically like nobody over 30 should be making music. Like, I don't want to, like, your music is always better when you're younger. Name any artist, and I don't think their music has gotten better over time. What about? People disagree with me.

Starting point is 00:46:19 Like, oh, Dylan's still making good album. Yeah, but not like the music he was making when he was 25. There's some good old head rap because, okay, think or just music. Think about Johnny Cash doing that nine inch nails cover. Yeah, but that's an ex. That's what, and that's like on his deathbed. But he didn't even write that song. I know, but he just, it's like you can hear death looming in the song and that's so tight.

Starting point is 00:46:38 I like young people make the best music. Yeah. And young people especially make the best rap music. I'm not saying there's not exceptions. Like maybe you like 444 like J. J at least tried to do something new. You know, you think of someone like Rock Marciano who's like an incredible writer. He's basically, you know, a novelist.

Starting point is 00:46:58 And he can paint these scenes. You don't believe that he's actually doing all of these things, which is fine. But he's such a good writer that it works anyway. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions. I'm just saying rap is a young man's game. And it and it's, and people want to hear your struggles. And then they want to hear you immediately overcoming those struggles because that's when it's visceral. And you talk about how good it feels.

Starting point is 00:47:19 and people believe it. And then after that, they don't have much use for you. And people just are on to the next one. And I think that, you know, that's fine. Yeah, it is fine. It's hard for the humans behind it, but it's fine for the, in fact, is good for the art form. Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:34 I mean, when you think about the elements that make for a popular rapper, it's like, you know, well, A, you have the fact that there's diminishing returns on your existence on a song. Like, we just know how the audience consumes stuff. And it's the same reason why you'll see somebody on 10. TikTok who has 5 million followers and they're getting 100,000 views of video because, yeah, they got those followers because they were so beautiful or so good at dancing or whatever. You see it over and over again. And at a certain point, it's just like, well, what else do you have to offer?

Starting point is 00:48:01 And that's the exact same thing that happens with a little baby or a pooh shys you or whatever. And at a certain point, the terrible thing is that even for somebody like Lil Rique, it's all music now. There's just nothing that could happen in his personal life or anything viral or anything. the only thing that he could do is make good music. And I would say that that's even probably true of Little Baby. That's what gives him a little bit less leverage than somebody who at their height, like a 6-9, who was able to use all this drama to promote each song.

Starting point is 00:48:32 Yeah, it's like he's created this character for himself where he's so cool and calm and laid back and not really willing to address any kind of shit that people are throwing at him or whatever that he just doesn't have to engage with this shit. But it's an onto the next one culture because people feel like that about TV shows, you know, by the time you get to the seventh season of a showtime show that everybody loved in the first two seasons, like, it's on to the next one. And there's so much choice right now. Like, this is why we don't see superstars in the way we used to because the whatever, the monoculture doesn't exist. Like, the biggest star in the world is not necessarily known to, like, a random person on the street because everyone can pick their own little lane of stuff.

Starting point is 00:49:12 And that's TV, it's music, it's books, which nobody reads books. I mean, you know, like it's TikTok. It's, you know, there's, there's so much choice that nothing sticks. I mean, the biggest stars in the world put out albums this year that nobody listens to two, four, six weeks later. Right. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I was listening to an interview with B.J. Novak the other day and he had something really interesting to say. They basically said, like, the host said TV's in a golden age.

Starting point is 00:49:40 He said, I think TV is in the opposite of golden age. TV is in the shittiest state that's been in a long time because. His TV show flopped. Okay. But think about this. He said, take the office. What do you have? You have a bunch of really talented actors who have really great chemistry, a bunch of really

Starting point is 00:49:56 great writers. If this was being made today, all of the people on the office, like as soon as you start to have a bit of, you know, success or people think you're likable or whatever, you're being pulled in a million different directions. So it's a lot harder to get like a bunch of talented people to focus on one project because there's so much shit being churned out. And that changes how people. consume it because people just aren't capable of conceiving of content as being special at a certain

Starting point is 00:50:22 point when there's so much of it that's how i feel half the time when i try to watch like a new animated show it's so hard for me to not see behind the wall of the fact that this is just a bunch of guys who have a job where they got in a room and tried to write jokes and then an animator you know came up with some cool you're too deep into the matrix now exactly it's hard for me to just look at it and just take it for what it is whereas like i'm a kid watching the simpsons and it's like why does the Simpsons exist. I don't fucking know. This is amazing. This is the coolest thing in the world, you know? But that's what I'm saying. Art is often for young people, by young people. And there's a reason why most people stop absorbing new music or new culture by the time they're, you know, out of college or 25 or by the time they have a kid. Like, that's normal. Like, you and I are the exception in that we try to like stay curious and stay engaged with new shit. But you see this even with young people now. Like more people are watching the office and friends who weren't even born when those shows came out because they're you know and and the same with

Starting point is 00:51:19 it goes with catalog music you see spotify they say you know they say that and that new music is dying and people are just listening to stuff that's you know 18 months two years 20 years old you know cape bush has maybe one of the biggest songs in the world this year uh you know because of stranger things like people i think are overwhelmed and the world is scary and they're going back and surrounding themselves in comfort, right? Something that existed before there was all of this, all of these options, all of this chaos, all of this mess. Right, because we are inundated, right? Like that same thing that we're talking about with QC and just there being too much content, that's kind of the problem in rap in general, right? Like, there's just too much stuff. And

Starting point is 00:51:59 we haven't really seen big stars popping off over the past couple of years. Whereas in like 2017 and 2018, it was every month there was a couple of big new SoundCloud rappers. And now it feels like, you know, we're looking at somebody like Little Baby as one of the kings of the rap game. He came up a few years ago and who's really coming up after him. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you're someone who keeps an eye on like the underground and is always trying to find the hot new thing. Like to me, who is less engaged at that level because of what my job is and who I am. Like, what is next?

Starting point is 00:52:33 Like, I don't know. I think it's, but I think it's an interesting moment and I think it's like sort of a pandemic hangover still. I think people don't give COVID enough credit for the way that it shifted things. Like even though life is back to normal, I don't think that vacuum has been filled yet. But I don't know. Like what, like, I don't know what is next. But I think that's kind of cool. And I think especially I trust rap and Atlanta, even to figure it out because they always do.

Starting point is 00:52:59 Every time you think it's over, there's something that storms in. And I think like the absence of thug, the ascension of Migos and Baby. Like, there's room. There's there's room. There's like there's ground for the taking, but I don't know. Like do you, what do you think is like the next wave? I don't know. I feel like everybody's just paying attention to all these little microwaves like with the Jersey club thing or like Drake taking this shot at making this club album and stuff that there's just everybody's just sort of watching and waiting for what could be next after like street rap and drill rap.

Starting point is 00:53:32 Is it is it bandman real? Like can he cross over and becon like I don't know. I like that shit a lot. I really like playing it around my kid because my kid just goes nuts for the super fast beats and everything. But at the same time. But there's a ceiling because it's so fast

Starting point is 00:53:47 and it's so inaccessible. But I wonder, because a lot of times it's the really inaccessible stuff that ends up being huge. I don't know. I wouldn't be that surprised because, I mean, we had one of our guys Black Dave

Starting point is 00:53:56 do a video with Ice Spice in her neighborhood like before she popped off. And I remember watching the video and being like, I don't know. Like, are you just trying to date this girl or something? Like I was really big. You didn't see it. I kind of like saw it.

Starting point is 00:54:09 The music got a lot better after that, but I was kind of almost thinking in my head, like, Dave, like, are you just trying to holler at this girl and you did a no jumper video about her? Because I'm not sure I see the vision. Isn't that your business model? Yeah, apparently. That's one part of the business model. But, dude, I don't know. I couldn't believe it. Hey, can I really do this quote before we finished this that I really wanted to read from a little baby's mom?

Starting point is 00:54:30 Yeah. So this is like when she basically figures out that he's in the streets and that she basically has no control over it. she says, when you make the decision to get in the streets, you know that it's consequences for being out there. You, my child,

Starting point is 00:54:45 I love you dearly. I would love to keep you safe and spoil you and give you everything that your hard desires, but I'm not in the situation and do it. Really no parent is

Starting point is 00:54:53 unless you're some billionaires. So your greatest lesson you're going to learn are going to be in the streets, but always hear my voice. I know you know right from wrong and I'm going to leave it at that. I prayed about it

Starting point is 00:55:03 and I let him go. And she's just describing like, handing her child off into the world and hoping that he somehow figured it out and to me like powerful that's I got chills I've read that quote a thousand times

Starting point is 00:55:17 but you gave me chills because like and I think that that's relatable because everybody goes through that to some extent you'll go through that with your kid like maybe it's not the same maybe the consequences are not the same hopefully you know you're in a position where you know it's not death or prison

Starting point is 00:55:32 that are that then there's some safety net beyond that but this is reality. And like I always think there's a quote in the book from from P2 where he's talking about why street rap is the most popular music in the world. And he's like, there's more people in the streets than anything. Like they're like people people know that struggle. It's again, it's not always the most extreme version. But any parent, I think, I'm not a parent, but I have parents. I can, I have friends who are parents. I can imagine, you know, that that's a, that's a sentiment that everybody feels at some point in their life, whether or not you're in the exact scenario that they are. Right. Yeah. And I think that,

Starting point is 00:56:11 yeah, there's something, you know, there's something universal in that. And in light of that, when you see a little baby rolling around with his mom and the fact that he takes her on tour and all this stuff and the fact that I've been in this environment a lot of times where you have the rapper, the son, who's just the star of the show and he's getting all this attention and you notice the mom just sort of sitting back and just watching them. So beautiful. I mean, she said something to me in in the book where she said, you know, I was, I was listening. She's sitting at home and she says, you know, Alexa, play a little baby. It's like something like that.

Starting point is 00:56:42 And then she texts him and she's basically like, you know, like, I'm sitting here in my favorite chair, queuing up your music, you know, and I'm crying, like in a house that you bought me. And he texted her back and he said, you know, like sometimes I cry thinking about it too. And then to play his new album and there's a line on there where he says, essentially, he's like, you know, sometimes I just cry thinking about that all that I've accomplished. Like not on some sad shit, but like, I really, I really did this and I did this like for my mom and my family. And I think that's why

Starting point is 00:57:10 people always relate to the rags to riches story and, and especially the rap story when you think about all that these guys are facing like in terms of, you know, the racism of, of America, like the abject poverty that, that we allow to happen in this country. Like, and to make it out of that, like, you know, it's not, it's not enough of them. There will never be enough, like, rap will never save enough people to really be impactful on that level. But the individual stories get clung to by audiences, by listeners, by friends, by family, whatever, because it's so, it's so incredible. Like the miracle of that, like, to, like you're saying, like to be on a private jet with your mom when, when she thought your, you know, your life was over because you were going

Starting point is 00:57:58 to go to prison. Like, that's like, I mean. Her just having to accept that she might want to tell you not to do this like you know my mom told me not to get in trouble but my mom was also like trying to help me pay for college and shit like that she accepted that she knew that she really didn't have anything to offer him that was going to be more attractive and at that point honestly he seems like a born leader slash born drug kid yeah he was going to go get what he was going to get and and she realized that and again like that i think that that probably every parent goes through some version of that and hopefully it's not as extreme but uh You know, I think that's, that's, it's a universal, it's a universal feeling.

Starting point is 00:58:39 Definitely. What, what's the thing that you think that a little reek or a little pump or a smoke perp? Like, I'm kind of, because I feel like now it's all about the music. And I think that all these artists are people who have a hit song left in them. I think that a lot of these guys who have been totally written off still have a wave that's yet to come. And I think that there's going to be a lot of sort, like the same way that the GameStop stock had a research. and the same way that at a certain point a lot of like hip New York club kids

Starting point is 00:59:08 were wearing sketches. You're buying low on SmokePurp? You think he's coming back? I'm just saying I think like honestly I think that if you went and listened to a lot of SmokePurbs catalog that has been totally ignored that you'd be like some of this is kind of good. It holds up. Actually I think that the real answer is not chasing a hit

Starting point is 00:59:24 but it's building a sustainable fan base. Think of someone like currency. Currency is probably one of the most impressive rappers of our lifetime Right. And not that many people know who he is. He was signed to cash money. Didn't work out.

Starting point is 00:59:39 Never had a huge hit. But he tours. He puts out music consistently. He perfects his craft over and over again. And it's same thing with Rock Marciano. Like he's speaking directly to his fans. He can sell an album for $40 or $60 or $80 to enough people who can sustain his lifestyle. And I think it's like it's, it's, if you chase a consistency and a modesty instead,

Starting point is 01:00:04 of the, you know, the one smash hit, which might get you a little bit down the road, but isn't going to, isn't going to carry you through the rest of your life. I think there are now these models, you know, whether it's Patreon, whether it's, you know, putting your music out directly on Spotify, having a YouTube presence, you know, being a, being an all-purpose sort of lifestyle figure that some celebrities have figured out, you know, you're doing a little bit of Twitch, you're doing a little bit of merch, you're doing a little bit of live show. I think like you can build that from the ground up, especially if you already have some attention. Like if you've had that viral moment and then it went away, I think you can

Starting point is 01:00:42 rebuild and but it takes a long time and it takes patience. And I think a lot of these artists don't have that, especially when they get that first taste of viral fame. Right. Like think about currency and then think about somebody like Lil B who watches this shit all the fucking time and will almost certainly tweet at us and almost certainly tag you. And I'm looking forward to it right now. But Lil B, I'm going to actually say something that you could have maybe done better. You know,

Starting point is 01:01:09 like when Lil B came out, he just became this touring heavyweight the same way that currency was. I could imagine Lil B still now having like an excellent like route of the USA. Because like with currency, it's like he doesn't have huge songs. He's like a little B where it's like there's all these crowd favorites, but they're not like giant hits, you know?

Starting point is 01:01:28 It's like a Grateful Dead type model. We have all these like diehard fans and then your your shows kind of become their social network. And it's like that that is right there for the person who wants to do it right, you know, but a lot of times they get lost in the hype. But Lurie still has a chance to do that because he laid the groundwork and he has the catalog and he loves creating. That's the main thing. I think if these guys don't love creating, I get the sense that currency loves rapping. True. He's not begrudgingly rapping.

Starting point is 01:01:57 He's not doing it because it's his job. He has to create. And I think that's not always the case for these guys, especially these guys who get big on their second, third, fifth song. They haven't even found out whether they love it or not, and then it gets ruined for them. But someone like Lil B, like, Lil B is just an artist, like in the truest sense.

Starting point is 01:02:15 Right. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did. And I think now the world is ready for someone like him if he were to lay it out in the right way and be consistent. But it also takes like, You need someone in your corner who can help you with that, especially when you're this iconoclast and your head is in the clouds and that's why your music is so good. But then you need that guy who's going to sit with you like, I know currency and jet life. Like there's the artist and then there's the manager and the executive that can help. I think this would be the next chapter of my career is that I should take some of those like 16 year old SoundCloud rappers and sort of like manage them and help them be reborn as like a consistent legacy adult rap.

Starting point is 01:02:57 And I also think that at some point, the same way that there needs, that there's like these like West Coast legends tours that'll have like Snoop and exhibit and game and stuff headlining, that at some point that should definitely happen for SoundCloud rap. Because I think right now you could do a huge fucking tour with a lot of these guys and be able to book them like less expensive and that it would somehow maybe not enough time has passed. No, but I think the nostalgia cycles are getting shorter and who better than you to promote this. Somebody's going to do it. Like somebody's going to do it. Like somebody's going to do it. Like, put. Put all these guys in a room, sit down with them and be like, all right, here are your 10 songs that people want to hear. Right. Like, let's stick to this. Let's stick to a plan. I think, look, there's a lot of, there's a lot of money to be had out there with like a little bit of discipline and consistency. But I think it's difficult to keep your eye on the ball. Definitely.

Starting point is 01:03:49 What subject could you imagine yourself tackling next? Like, does writing this book make you think, oh, fuck, I want to write a book about this other thing too? You know what I really want to do? I want to write like pulpy crime stories. Like there's so much of this, so much of this book is, is about the art and about the industry. And, and that's cool. But learning about, you know, digging through like trial transcripts, learning about, you know, the structures of street life and illicit economies, whether it's mixtapes or drugs or strip clubs. Like that, that side of things really interests me. And like, I, I like, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I grew up on, on Goodfellas and Casino and the Sopranos and, you know, menace to society. And, you know, these are like, I think that there are stories to tell even outside of music, but in the, in a tangential world, you know, that, like I said, like, people are, people are attracted to this stuff always throughout human history. but I think bringing humanity to to like salacious scandals and crime and violence like that

Starting point is 01:05:05 I think that I want to move in that direction nice I got to ask you this now because this is pop in my head but what do you think of like some YouTubers have basically taken reporting on you know rap gangs and crime and stuff to a totally new level like when you I thought you had Chapler Ross yeah I watched a three hour documentary

Starting point is 01:05:22 he did about G Herbo and the no limit stuff and I mean it is one of of the most harrowing, horrible stories I've ever heard in my life in terms of the sheer scale of murder that happened in this one gang war that keep in mind is not even the main Chicago gang war. Like this is one subset versus subset type thing. It is horrible. And the fact that he put together a three hour documentary about this, I just thought was

Starting point is 01:05:45 unbelievable. And then I think of somebody like 1090 Jake. I was going to say 1090 Jake is like the guy. Like he is so good at this. It's America's most wanted for this generation. He's just taken, like, there was a beef between a bandman Kevo and 16 shot him, and they had both accused each other of having been involved in various stuff from, you know, being a snitch to, you know, messing with an underage girl, whatever. And 1090 Jake shut the door on both the accusations by actually digging into the paperwork. And that just stands out to me.

Starting point is 01:06:13 I was like, there's some guy working in the New York Times where this is his job. And he's like, you know, probably doing a lot of the same stuff. And this stuff is both ethically icky in some. Some cases, especially when you think back on, you know, the people who are, you know, I'm not going to name names, what people who are maybe stoking some of this beef or trying to get people in trouble or trying to pit people against each other. Like I think there's that voyeuristic aspect to a lot of it. But then some of these guys are, like you're saying, really good reporters. And they're doing the research and they're, you know, drawing the connections or they're providing the context. They're reading the court papers like

Starting point is 01:06:53 Look I can't I can't take my eyes off of it because I love Rap and I love Journalism and research and uncovering information And at the same time you know I'll go on some of these Reddit pages about you know these local gang wars or whatever it is and it's like People rooting for them like their sports teams or something like that's disgusting Yeah, the to to to be cheering on violence but I but I do think, if done the right way, there is value in piecing some of this stuff together and putting it out there for people. And yeah, I look at guys like Jake or like Ross. And on one hand,

Starting point is 01:07:37 I really admire what they do. And on the other, you know, I'm like, uh, because you're somebody, well, just because you know how much training real journalists get and how many standards that you might end up holding yourself too and especially with the times it's just like you know there's anything that you want to write is going to be looked at and fact check and bulletproof all this analysis put upon it in order to avoid having an issue of corrections in the future and you know somebody like 1090 jake i think actually is being pretty responsible with how he uses this platform but it's like somebody who has no training it's kind of like he could easily find himself getting into situations where he's reporting on something that's not true that gets somebody in a situation and

Starting point is 01:08:18 And I've seen them have to take down videos as soon as they come out because of this sort of thing. But I'll say those guys do more work than a lot of music journalists out there today. And a lot of people running these very popular pages, a lot of, even websites that once meant something are not doing that sort of digging. And you'll see, you know, think of coverage of the YSL case or a thug or, you know, a beef, a Dirk young boy beef. People are irresponsible. And people are irresponsible with platform. And then there are these guys who are creating their own platforms who are taking it layers and layers deeper and doing their homework and trying to reach out to people. Like, I think I'm in awe of the amateur skill set of some of these guys.

Starting point is 01:09:06 And I hope it stays on the right side of the line. But I think that their natural instinct for uncovering stuff for reporting, especially like a 1090 Jake, is like extremely, extremely impressive. Hell yeah. So remind them what the book is called and where they can get it and everything. Yeah, Rap Capital and Atlanta Story out now. Anywhere books are sold, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, go to a real bookstore, listen to the audio book. Landon Woodson read the audiobook. He did Ray Kwan's autobiography. It's like a long podcast. Yeah, it's like a really long podcast. And the greatest part about this book is, even if you don't read it, it looks sick on your shelf. Like the cover is amazing. I wish we had it here. I will put it in an order. We've got to support. We'll be. We're going to have one up there. Thank you.

Starting point is 01:09:49 Shout out to my friend Teddy Blanks, who designed the cover. It's gold. It's sparkly. Yeah, it looks great. And girls will think you're smart if you buy this book. Wow. Amazing. I got to write one one day.

Starting point is 01:10:00 Appreciate you, Joe. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you so much. No Jumber. coolest podcast on world. Check us on YouTube, TikTok, Patreon, on Instagram. Like, comment, and subscribe. Nojumber.com if you want to support.

No Jumper - The Joe Coscarelli Interview: Why He Wrote a Book About Lil Baby, QC & Atlanta's Rap World

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