No Jumper - The Sonny Sandoval of P.O.D. Interview: Christianity, Nu Metal & More

Episode Date: November 11, 2021

Legendary POD's lead singer Sonny, sits down with Adam to talk about his and the band's come up, longevity in the game, brotherhood, hip hop and metal, faith, behind the scenes of the music industry and much more! https://www.instagram.com/POD/ https://www.instagram.com/sonnywhosoe... https://www.instagram.com/thewhosoevers/ ----- NO JUMPER PATREON http://www.patreon.com/nojumper CHECK OUT OUR NEW SPOTIFY PLAYLIST https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5te... FOLLOW US ON SNAPCHAT FOR THE LATEST NEWS & UPDATES https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... CHECK OUT OUR ONLINE STORE!!! http://www.nojumper.com/ SUBSCRIBE for new interviews (and more) weekly: http://bit.ly/nastymondayz  Follow us on SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4ENxb4B... iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/n... Follow us on Social Media: https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... http://www.twitter.com/nojumper http://www.instagram.com/nojumper https://www.facebook.com/NOJUMPEROFFI... http://www.reddit.com/r/nojumper JOIN THE DISCORD: https://discord.gg/Q3XPfBm Follow Adam22: https://www.tiktok.com/@adam22 http://www.twitter.com/adam22 http://www.instagram.com/adam22 adam22hoe on Snapchat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No Jumper, coolest podcast on the world, and today I'm in here with the one and only legend. Sonny from POD. How are you doing, man? What's up on me? I'm chilling, man. I like that. What?

You don't think you're ready for the legend title or what was it? Not yet. Still got some living to do. I don't know. I feel like one narrative, one style of music that is like kind of, it's always been on the fringe of hip hop to a certain extent, but I'm always interested in exploring it. It's just kind of the combination of metal and rock music. And I feel like you are like a super important figure in that throughout your career.

And it kind of goes under analyzed, you know? A little bit. But we're, we're, I appreciate that first of all. But we've, I don't think we've ever meant to go mainstream. You know what I mean? It just kind of happened. That's how you feel? Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, it is weird when you think about it just in a general sense, like, It's such an obvious idea to combine rock music and rap music. There's like clear similarities and stuff, but it feels like the combination at times throughout its history. It's been done so badly at times or done in such ways that it feels like it kind of maybe turned the culture as a whole off to it. And you always wonder when the culture might be fully ready to embrace stuff that combines the two. I feel like you guys were super early on realizing that that was going to be part of music to come.

Yeah. I think, I mean, there's nothing new on the sun. You know what I mean? When the music's keep coming around, but a lot of people jump on trends, and you said exactly. Because I think hip hop is so authentic and even rock and roll in its beautiful form. But then when people just try to jump on the trend and they're not really about either, how can you mash it up? so that it is authentic.

So a lot of guys, you know, they jumped on the boat, and then they started putting out records, and then it's that thing that everybody just said, I'm kind of over this. Instead of giving it to credit that it deserves. I hear you. Take me back to San Diego, you as a kid, before this band even came to exist.

Because it existed before you even joined, right? It wasn't, it was more of a thrash metal, like three-piece. My cousin's a drummer. and Marcos the guitar player still. So it didn't really take shape before you joined? Right. Okay. I think what had happened was, you know, we all have different interests in music,

and that's kind of where we, you know, that's where we blend. But they were doing something. They wanted to do something a little different, and I was more into hip-hop and reggae music, stuff like that. I grew up in a rock and roll family, but, you know, when you kind of become a teenager or whatever, you kind of just find your own thing. You want to rebel a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I think I've kind of found myself a little bit more in conscious music, whether it was hip-hop, whether it was reggae music, and it was because it had substance, where there's, to me, rock and roll was just more, you know, it was rock and roll, sex, drugs, rock and roll. What kind of stuff was your parents playing around the house? I mean, there were, it was like ACDC, Led Zepp and that kind of stuff, good or stuff, but then once I started to hear like a band called The Police, which did mix kind of reggae sounds, English reggae sounds.

Yeah, yeah. So then that was like, okay, there's a little bit more soul into this, you know? Interesting. Yeah, I mean, like, if you're a kid, when did you guys form? Or when did you guys really start going on? 92 is when POD formed, yeah.

I mean, by 92, if you were a young, somewhat angry or, you know, angstful young man, a lot of that stuff that was really popular during the 70s, 80s, I feel like that was starting to really not appeal to you at a certain point, especially if you're kind of like angry. Yeah.

If you have that in you. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's so much angst is just, it was just a way to get, you know, yeah, I guess it's a way to get things out, you know what I mean? Right. But I, I always, I mean, I grew up listening to Rockmore, like I said, because of my family, but I thought, you know, punk and that kind of stuff was more of a white music, if that makes sense like a sex pistols an English kind of punk and I'm like I don't relate to those cats

so why would I listen to that right it wasn't until I noticed or recognized bands like suicidal tendencies you know bands of color and then especially the bad brains obviously for black dudes in a punk rock band right to me it was four black dudes in a in a white scene kind of scene oh yeah so then to me it was like what do they know that I don't that I don't know because that's what you know, even as a kid, you know, like by the time I started to get into hardcore and punk and everything, it's like the bad brains had already happened many years before, but you always were so fascinated about like, how the fuck did these guys end up here and how did, how were they so good, so separate in many ways, but still capable of really like entrancing this audience.

Like they must have had such self-confidence and self-belief to just insert themselves like that, you know? I think they did. I think once they realized, you know, once they started HR and them, started getting more like the roster culture and roots. It was authentic, but it was, I don't, I mean, when do we always know what we're doing? You're just kind of going with the flow and then you're just kind of saying, okay, well, this is what I want to do. So I think they were being the bad brains, but then once they kind of took on this whole new identity and culture and belief system,

then it just started to mesh into what they were already doing, which, you know, makes it authentic. It's funny because now, nowadays, I feel like people would perceive that more as like a, a, a missionary effort to some extent. Like they were trying to come in and like convert people to Rastafari. True, true. But I mean, that was the same thing with Marley as well. They were just, they were Jamaican cats, but they were doing American soul, American music. But it wasn't until he, you know, kind of adopted this roster culture that it was like,

okay. So again, authentic. It wasn't like I'm on this mission to do this. You know what I mean? I think that's kind of how it was with POD as well. was like me just discovering my faith. It wasn't like I'm going to go and convert the world. You know, it was just like, I'm just trying to figure out how this rolls, you know,

coming from whatever, whatever I was into at the time or just trying to stay out of trouble. Finding my faith was like, okay, well, it wasn't like I was saying because I have all this experience and I'm saying because I know everything or I believe I know everything. It's like, no, this is real to me in this moment and I'm discovering it. So why not talk about it in real time? So were you going through the process of finding your faith at the same time that you're joining the band? Oh, for sure. It's the only reason why I've enjoyed.

My mom had passed away leukemia when I was 19. Right. And at that point, because it's not like I grew up saying, I mean, I listen all kinds of music and stuff, but I'm not the guy that always wants to be in front of the light or, you know, the camera or in the front. I'm the guy in the back that kind of just. gets it done, you know what I mean? So when my mom passed away, that's when I kind of, you know, decided it was time to grow up a little bit.

Or just maybe if anything, it was like... You were trying to find yourself at that time. Yeah, and if anything, you know, do what I believe she would want me to do. So that was, okay, I got to, you know, not getting into trouble. I got to, you know, I just got to make better decisions in my life. You were getting in trouble before that? No, I'm good at not getting in trouble. but I hang around a lot of people that do.

Right. So like I said, I'm just there to, because that's my family. And then, but it was just kind of deciding the time like, okay, these are my choices. If I come from a neighborhood where your choices are limited, you know, you're either selling drugs or you're going to join a gang or, you know, my choices are limited. Were you very much tempted by the criminal element as a kid or? Not personally. I wasn't afraid of it. A lot of my friends were already doing it, but it wasn't to I realize later that again, listening to a lot of reggae music, which was a lot of it is when you listen to Old Roots music, it's a lot of, it's biblically inspired. There's a lot of scripture. Right? Even Marley's music. Most people think that's a Marley quote was like, no, that's actually scripture that he's quoting. But I was listening to a lot of reggae music. So it was making me this kind of peace, even, you know, amongst my situation, I was still this kind of peaceful cat at heart, you know what I mean? And then I realized later, in reading scripture that the Bible does say

that the word of God will never, never return void. So even in my mind and heart, when I wasn't really looking for it, at some point I was, these, these words were still speaking peace to my, to my soul. So no, every time we would do something stupid or my friends would, whatever, it was just like, I knew there, I knew there, I knew the different. right and wrong. Did we always do right? No, but it's like, it's kind of like you're in this situation. What am I going to do?

Right. You know? So you joined the band and was that like a tricky process and do you take on like a leadership role almost? Were you the one who was motivated or did they already have their own momentum going? No, they were doing stuff in the streets and the neighborhood, but it was just backyard party, stuff like that. But it wasn't until my mom passed away.

Here I am. I found out later that my cousin, the drummer, He actually had asked me to be in the band just so that I would stay out of trouble and stay on kind of on this path that I was on. So I had no idea what I was doing. You know what I mean? I had already, you know, crossed boundaries with a lot of different musics and stuff. But like I said, it was never, I didn't grow up saying I want to be in a band. It was more like, okay, they asked me to do it.

Why can't I do it? If I'm going through this change in my life and, you know, why can't I pick up this microphone? and scream some positive things. You know what I mean? So, and then a few things did happen where I thought it was kind of a spiritual confirmation that maybe I should, maybe I should give it a shot. And then we did. But again, never thought we'd leave San Diego.

It was just more, it was just more part of my change process, I think. I think when people saw me trying to live out my faith, that was, that was strange. Right. At least in the streets sense, you know, my friends. And then when it was like, Sonny jumped in this, you know, you know, in the band, that's out of his character as well. So it was just me just trying to figure out what I was supposed to be doing, you know? But you joining a band were a lot of people from your culture looking at you,

like you were doing some weird shit, some white boys shit? Or was it kind of an accepted part of the culture around there? My cousin, I mean, we're in San Diego, there's a lot, you know, there's brothers, there's Mexicans playing metal music. And I wasn't really like a big metal fan. But so it wasn't like unusual, you know what I'm saying? I'm forgetting that there is a very strong, strange. of like metal and rock appreciation

within the metal, the metal, the Mexican community. Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. So it wasn't like it was strange. I think, as, you know, like I said, my cousin was already in the band, and when they would play parties or whatever, we would go. And we were just kind of learning that,

I think when I say we, just me and like, my own ways, we were kind of learning, well, okay, this is what, you know, my cousin loves to do, and he's part of the crew. It's like, well, let's, we'll back him up and we'll go. And so we were kind of learning,

even the whole, the mosh pit, all that kind of stuff. That was kind of new to you at the time. It was kind of new, but it was fun. You know what I mean? But even when POD first started, we used to play with all kinds of different bands, so all of a sudden you play at a show

and all of a sudden you have like a, you're playing with some white power band. All of a sudden you have these skinhead Nazis up in the pit. What was the policy when that would be happening? There's no policy. It's not required that you beat the shit out of them? Oh, yeah, because it just happens. Because I feel like, yeah, like that's,

I just talked about on the last time, you I did, but I grew up in a scene going to hardcore shows and shit up in the East Coast where, I mean, if you came through with a swastika on or any kind of Nazi shit, you get the shit beat out of you, like, automatically. I don't know if people care as much. I don't think in the South. I don't think they represented like that. I think it was just, you just knew.

And so, again, if other friends of mine that were in other bands and they were playing with this band or that band, we just knew to posse up and roll to those shows and just be there if anything popped off. you know what I mean? Right. But it wasn't like a 100% guarantee, like if you saw some skinheads that you guys were going to have

to get in one of them? It happens, but it wasn't like it was our mission. I feel like if there's a Nazi at a hardcore show, it's such an aggressive thing that it's like inevitable that something has to happen.

Like I said, they weren't flying it. So it's more like, you just, yeah. Because again, San Diego, you know, and even at the shows we were playing, you had more people of color,

which I, to this day, when going to, the East Coast or when playing, I still look for that. I still look for the spice in the crowd. You know what I mean? Instead of playing, say, maybe Midwest somewhere where it's just kind of like your typical audience. But what, you get excited if you see a significant percentage

of people of color in the audience? Always. On this tour, when you see people of color, when you see, especially black cats and black sisters, when you see them at a rock show in your crowd, I don't know, it's just something about it that says, I'm doing something right. Right, because I feel like, you know,

I feel like, you know, metal and aggressive music has always kind of struggled to appeal to that audience. Like, there's definitely a percentage of the audience of those, that demographic that fucks with it, but it's always kind of been like a smaller percentage. I think it's still that way. I mean, that's why I, as a teenager, it wasn't my thing. I mean, I knew of hardcore bands and, you know, and there was punk bands, stuff like that, but it wasn't until, you know, like I said, I listened to guys that had soul or bands of color. So but even now, like even in the world that I'm in, I still feel like, you know, whatever. We had our shine for a second, but I still feel like we're somewhat in a white rock and roll-type world. And so my band, we don't have those elements.

We don't, culturally, we don't have those elements. Musically, we don't have those elements. We have too much, there's just too much soul. We just have too much soul. You can dance to our music even if you don't like it, you know what I mean? From the very beginning, was that the plan? Like, do you always want to merge rap music and rock, or did it just kind of happen?

It just happened. It's just because an appreciation, you know, because we're fans. We were hip-hop fans. We were reggae fans, punk fans. Was that just the only way that you knew how to do vocals? It just came to you the most naturally? Yeah.

Well, I think I was easier with just trying to rap. You know what I mean? And then it wasn't, and then it was just, again, learning as I was going, like, okay, learning how to scream, to, you know, just get into it. And then later on, you know, even when we signed over with Atlantic, it was like learning how to sing.

You know, it was like, it's not like I said, oh, I don't even consider myself a singer even to this day. It's just, I'm just trying to figure it out. Right. Still. When you first started, was there even a hope or a glimmer in your eye that you could be like rich or famous or get anywhere with this? Was getting signed even like a thing that you knew about?

No. I didn't care about that then. I don't care about that now. You didn't know any bands that were successful? No, not from San Diego. Beyond like a local level. No, not from San Diego. San Diego bands.

I mean, you heard of bands. I said, oh, later on, like, oh, they came from San Diego, but it's not like I have any connection or they're connected to San Diego streets or anything, you know what I mean? So if anybody they can, you know, it's kind of like they, they grew up outskirts of San Diego, but then when they make it big, like, oh, we're from San Diego. Right.

Because you're not going to say I'm from Polaro. dunk county whatever right did you uh once you guys like how long were you grinding as like a small band would you did it we did it stuff independently for a minute uh so of 92 um i think we signed maybe 99 at them 99 so about six or seven years we did stuff independently because i saw you on 120 minutes uh appearance that you guys did back then and you were like we've been grind like we've been grinding it out for like eight years or some shit at this point you're um so you're point. Like, you know, like, it's not like these days where it's like you could be a bunch of cool looking kids in a band or rapping or whatever. You put your video on YouTube with the label

sees it. Boom, they pick you up. All of a sudden, they blow you up. It was like, you guys were really working. No, we're one of the last bands that, that, we're a handful of bands that grind, you know what I mean? That actually, we're not this story, you know, where these dudes decided to move Hollywood. It was just, we worked full time. We were, we were playing on our vacation, you know, our vacation during the summer. We were playing around San Diego all year long. We did stuff independently just because we had to. Right.

And then we started getting people looking at us and stuff. It just didn't feel right. So it was like, we just did everything we could independently forever. You know, and then it was like, okay, we feel like we have something. So why not try and take it up a notch? And the fan base was like really starting to get strong on a local level? Well, because we were like, we toured. We played for San Diego for two years, and then we did like a summer, a few weeks in the summer of 94, 95, and then 96, and we're like, dude, we can we can actually go full time because we've kind of spread the word.

We've been, you know, passing out demos. We've been selling merch all throughout the States for the last few years. What was, like, the bands that you would open for at that time that you were, like, hyped as fuck on? Like, that, that was a huge one. We just opened for them. Nothing, nothing, nothing on tour. On tour was always, like, underground stuff. Okay.

But in San Diego, because we, you know, we had love and respect in San Diego, you know, they put us on some of the bills, you know, like, you know, we got to play for Green Day one day, right before they signed, you know what I mean? That was just because we kind of earned a little bit of a following. But then, you know, when Cypress Hill came through and all kinds of the bands came through. So you were doing shows with rappers from early on. Oh, yeah. Nice. Just because they knew, you know, even, you know, it was so much down in San Diego, he kind of, you know, he knew our band had different. different elements and qualities to it so it fit right you know what I'm saying and and Cypress

still has always kind of been in that zone too where they weren't afraid to to to rock with rock bands back in the day it wasn't always just like this hip-hop thing you know right it's kind of crazy because like the time period that you're describing throughout the 90s there's kind of like this this real rock wave building up like even being pushed through MTV and shit like that that kind to me almost like hits its it's crescendo sort of of like at the end of the 90s or early 2000s where it's like, you know, corn and limp biscuit of the biggest shit in the world and all this. But from your perspective, were you thinking of like, you know, you guys as being like a new metal band? Were you hearing that word?

Like when did that kind of come into your consciousness? New metal didn't come up until those days where, you know, all of a sudden when you had to pay attention. And it wasn't like corn was ever rapping and stuff. You know what I mean? So they don't, it's not necessarily whether you have a rap or hip hop influence, it was just the style of bands. They might have looked like some hip hop casual because it wasn't, you know, they're in a rock band, but yet they were dressing more street,

you know, bag your clothes, you know, hip hop brands, stuff like that. So it was kind of just meshing, but it's not like Jonathan Davis ever wrapped or did anything like that. Until later, I think, well, he never really rap per se. But he would have songs with rappers on their songs and stuff. Yeah.

I mean, there was always a mutual respect, But I don't think that was necessarily his thing. But as we were coming up, it was we were called all kinds of things. It was rap rock. It was rapcore. It was whatever. And so new metal just happened to stick. So when people say, when they call us that, you know, we're not going to sit there and argue about it.

But it's just like, do we've been called everything before you recognized that this was actually a genre? Right. You know what I'm saying? Were you guys in kind of like a weird space where you weren't like, you didn't necessarily fit in with like the metal crowd or the rap crowd? But you had kind of like our own scene in a way? I mean, I don't know if it was our own scene because people were similar to us. It was, I mean, we'll always, again, it will always be different because of where we come from, the different nationalities in this group, you know. But when we started to play shows and stuff in 92, people were like, oh, you guys are kind of like body count.

So they just automatically, those were two different things for IST. He was a rapper. This was hip-hop. This was his punk rock life. You know what I mean? So, but they just assume they mesh it together and say, oh, this is, this must be what this is. So it's like, oh, you guys are like body count. It's like, no, we like body count, but we're in a way, I guess, but we're not body count.

And then it wasn't until Raging Against a Machine hit the scene. It was like, oh, you guys are kind of like raging against the machine. All these different reference points that were kind of blowing up. And then when Limpit hits and it's like, but that's kind of when we hit it. We're like, no, that ain't, we've been around way before that. At least with rage, we can say, because we loved rage against the machine. Yeah. And we can say, dude, well, we were hip to rage against a machine back then.

But I remember a kid, a homie of ours, he came from Somas. He didn't even know who raging against the machine was. He went to see rage. He came back to us the next day with like a demo and saying, dude, you guys are just like raging. You guys do the same thing. And so we were like, huh? But then I found out about downset and stuff like that.

And Downset was around even before rage. That was their hardcore project basically before that, or their hardcore band before Rage became the thing. No, no, no, Rage. Zach was a part of a group called Inside Out. It was more in the hardcore scene. But Zach used to come down. This is what I heard, because I wasn't really a part of that straight edge

or like, you know, whatever, that scene. But from what I heard from all the homies that I know, that Zach used to come down when he was an inside out. play shows, what not, but he used to watch this band from San Diego that are, that we always love, was called House of Suffering. And there, to me, are the first guys that really did mix hip hop and this kind of straight-edge, hardcore music. Daryl Blunt was the singer, he was this black cat, he, and he was a rapper. And so he, to me, that was when it was like, what's, what are these guys doing? I mean, you heard it with like, whether it was blondie and fat,

whether it was, what are they, what are they, with the, Arrowsmith and running, you knew it was there. From the very beginning, every other form of music has quite often been concerned

with trying to figure out how to use rap superpower. Like, this shit seems popular. We gotta figure out to use this. It was like some vintage thing that was like, well, that's kind of cool,

but they never dove into it. Whereas these guys are like, no, these guys are a band and Daryl's, he's rapping. He's not even screaming. He's rapping over this kind of, you know,

emo, hardcore kind of music. It was like, so we used to go to, you know, those house parties and those underground shows and stuff like that. But we were never really part of that, that click. It was, you know, it was a straight edge kind of thing. It wasn't really our, you know, it was that thing. What year was it when you got signed and how did you guys go about trying to get signed at that time? We, I want to say we got signed at the end of 98 maybe.

Oh, okay. But we did everything independently. We put out a couple, couple records, put out some live stuff. And we toured our butts album. We built a fan base all around the United States. And then at some point, it was kind of like, okay, what are we doing? And we brought on a guy from, his name was Tim Cook.

He was throwing shows out in a little place. The CEO of Apple? No, no, I wish. Different Tim Cook? I figured. I wish. But it was, he was throwing shows at this place called the Warehouse in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, like right above Tulsa.

And, you know, he was a smart, smart guy, smart kid. He was our age. And at one point, we were just like, dude, I think we need someone that can actually go out and look for these opportunities, because we're not doing, we're making music in touring. To this day, we still try not to get involved in that stuff. You know, I mean, we just want to be able to be creative

and make music. Was it kind of a new metal signing spree with the labels at the time? Because they're seeing corn, they're seeing limp biscuit, they're seeing all the success happening, and they're thinking like, we're going to try to grab up every other band that kind of seems like they might be in that scene. You would think, but even at that point, even with the popularity, well, I guess I want to say at that point, Corn was doing their thing. I wouldn't say Limbiscuit and all of them were, I wouldn't say they were completely this mega band. It wasn't really until TRL kind of embraced that whole thing.

That was on really got crazy. But that was like 98, don't you think? I remember being an eighth grade and watching fucking limp biscuit on well at least I remember hearing them on the radio all the time but then I think by like 99 was when they like I think the second album came out and then they were like officially gigantic at that point you're right what I think at that point they were like an exception

and then all of a sudden more rock bands like biscuit Popper Roach started to kind of blend in with all the poppy stuff that was going on so when you go to the label what's the vibe like are they are they excited to be like pushing you guys or did you kind of feel like you got signed and it was like no completely they weren't they weren't looking for it that's for sure that's that's what i'm saying that's kind of when it

fizzled out afterwards because everybody started looking for it um when they signed us uh it was because of our a andr his name is john rubbley but he was in oh you know he helped start like a lalapalooza and that kind of stuff and he was more you know the cure and depesh mode bad brings all these kind of bands and when he he came out somehow we got a hold of him through management again people you know Hollywood networking he actually flew out to a little place called Wald Lake Michigan

and we were on tour so he came to this whatever place we played and there's a thousand kids there so we sat with them we go to Denny's and he's like dude I have we have platinum artists on Atlantic Records that can't pool a thousand people wow so this was more of this underground scene that he was used to

and that he loved and so that's when he started to mess with us and then we ended up doing a few showcases. We did a showcase for Atlantic. And it was like at the Roxy or the whiskey or something like that. And we had an off day. And so at the time, he's still there, Craig Calman. He saw us and he wasn't impressed.

And then he took John Rubly aside and he said, I'm giving you one shot. This is the band you want to take your shot with. And he said, yep, it is. So it's not like they gave us all this love. We did our thing. It wasn't until T.R. But TRL was fan-based.

It wasn't like, you know, like now everything's rigged. Or, you know what I'm saying? It's like the powers that be can promote whoever they want. Back then, it actually took the kid that was coming home from school to go whatever, his time zone from three to four, whatever that is, dial it up. We didn't have cell phones back there. Did you have to encourage your fans? No, how could you? I know, right?

How could you? It was a social media. What are you going to do? Say it on stage at a show or something? Yeah, what are you going to do? That's why we were more shocked. But that just goes to show you that the way. work that we put in. And so kids that were, you know, I say kids, we were kids, you know what I mean,

but people that were with us, it was more like we're doing this together. So the moment POD got a shot on this mainstream platform, that was groundbreaking, you know, for our fan base. So, so they started to do that. And it was because it was their voice that started to be heard that MTV, was like, who are these guys? That's interesting because normally when you hear people talk about MTV and TRL, you kind of hear them talk about it in like a cynical way, like, oh, yeah, like a lot of those spots were bought and paid for, and it was what the label was trying to push and stuff. But that's cool here from you that that was kind of what blew you guys up in a way. I mean, maybe a lot of those bands, because they had that, they had it like that. We didn't.

You know what I'm saying? It wasn't until that happened. And the fan base is what really put us on through TRL that the label started. Well, then we started to sell records. So once that first record went platinum, then our label is forced to, oh, we can't ignore that these guys have something special. Right. So once they started to, you know, the next, that next album, obviously get a little bit more budget, start paying a little bit more attention to you. Our first album, I don't even think was released internationally.

Really? It wasn't until the second record. And then, you know, once a live went, it was like number one on rock radio right before 9-11. And so they started to just push it because there was something there. Right. Because you guys actually dropped your album on 9-11, which is a very, very rare designation that also applies to Jay-Z's The Blueprint. That's right. Amariah Carey.

Oh, okay. And Fabulous's first album, which is probably not as notable. But, okay. But so at that time, was there any involvement from the label trying to get you guys to make hits, trying to make your music a little bit more mainstream? How much of an influence was there? There wasn't. It wasn't forced. I mean, but at that point.

obviously we had this momentum and then it was a conscious decision as a band, okay, well, let's try some things. And this is where the singing comes, you know, like, hey, let's mess with this. And because, I mean, there was never, I don't think there was ever really any pressure on our end. It was just like, but as a band, we're always like, how do we grow? Like, if this is part of growing, then let's give it a shot. Right. You know what I mean?

So we did. And obviously, alive was, that was all part of us experimenting and growing. And it wasn't, it's not like I'm, we're singing through the whole song. It's, you know, it is kind of more of a good hook on. Yeah, it's the hook. But so I think we were just more conscious of like, hey, dude, you know, not in any way, shape, or form trying to sell out it anyway, but it was like, who doesn't love a good hook?

Because there was so much concern about selling out at that time, especially in like the rock world. Like, the fans were very much on alert for that. Whereas nowadays, if you're a new band or a rapper and you get a brand deal, I mean, hey, they're happy for you. Oh, you got a fashion of a deal? That's amazing. That's a sign of success now, which is weird. But that was like the hip-hop world, too.

Remember when they was like, they were never going to have a hook. No one was ever going to sing. And then all of a sudden, I remember the day I heard Mary Jay. Or no, was it Mary Jay or was it? I think it was Mary Jay on Wooten Method Man. Oh, yeah. And that was like, that was death. You know what I mean?

I mean, as far as like, that can't happen. And all of a sudden you hear it. And then Lauren Hill with Nause, you're like, this is where it's going. You need that hook. Yeah. And nowadays, when rappers compare each other, they're mostly comparing each other on success and not like, oh, I'm the best rapper. There's no skills, yeah. That's not really the focus these days.

No, that's, it's the same thing with, even where rock and roll is going now, your craft is the, is on the bottom tier. That's, that's zero to one level. I think it's mostly marketing now in rock? Oh, well, and not as much as hip hop, but, but in rock and roll, it's definitely there's bands that do not know how to play. And they, but their social media is on point. their gimmick is on fire. They're, and they all went to, these guys went to college and got degrees in marketing. So they're, they're all you need for the rock and roll recipe in 2021.

Wow. You know what I'm saying? That's crazy. But so you go and see him, you're like, this dude don't even play. I've seen metal bands where it's like, it's just so, like, the whole band is just dudes. And then the singer is like a hot chick with big fake tits. And I'm kind of like on the outside looking in. And I'm like, you're kind of like, y'all are going to stay a little longer to

check them out see if they got skills right fair enough i might have looked up a video just because i'm curious but then at the same time i'm like y'all are falling for this like you could do this now you can just be like a band and you like hire like a sexy model to be the singer i mean wow well and then time tells because there's bands that definitely have that but then there's bands where you listen to like oh no this chick's badass yeah i'm not taking anything away from saying like they're all like that but sometimes i've definitely seen ones where i went and watched a video and i was like oh no she is only here to look good. This chick's hot, but this band sucks.

Exactly. But then that's, but it got you there. That's what I'm, that's where the marketing comes in. Yeah, definitely. But did you think of, were you thinking about marketing at that time? Did that even like? What is that? That's what the label did on your behalf. You weren't really used to the idea. I hope they did. I still don't know if they did or not. It was just, that was just us and all the work that we had put in,

the fan base that was there, you know, that got us recognition. Right. Definitely. So did Atlantic ever try to put you with songwriters? No. Really? Never even tried. I think they tried, but we... You resisted. We resisted. We still haven't necessarily sat down with, even to this day, and sat down with a songwriter. The only thing we got close with was last record where we're like, you know what? Okay, we have nothing to prove, been around. We just want to, we want to,

we're getting, not that we're getting older, we just need to get out of our own head. So we actually allowed these two guys are called the heavy they're younger and they're amazing talented we actually allowed them to sit in with us during the writing process normally every record before we just bring the music to our producer and then it's like here's our stuff it's what it is and then they'll help us from there we can go shape build take away ad whatever right but these guys were there for the beginning and but it wasn't like no one ever said here's a riff here's this it was like this is what we have and we are completely

welcome to hear anything. Because I'm always just kind of curious about how common that is in the rock world. Because like nowadays yeah. Because like Haybreed was always like one of my top bands when I was a young man. And I think it was the third album or second album, Perseverance.

I figured what the single was on that album. But I remember I had been listening to the first project so much and then I get that project and the single from that sounded so well. written and polished that I just remember like even as a young kid being like this is not there's some kind of special sauce here maybe I don't know if that's true I would ask Jamie justice right you have to meet them yeah maybe maybe they just had a great day that day and it or it could be a better budget for

recording a better budget for mixers you know what I mean yeah if that's all that's all possible yeah and I mean I was a kid so yeah yeah yeah yeah but I was just guessing you know definitely so um I mean you guys get into that position. So like with the live, like was there anything that stood out to you as special about that song before that came out or that that was going to be this sort of like career changing moment

for you guys? I don't think it was a career changing, but it was definitely special. You know when it's special, you know. Because if people now don't know anything about you, they still know that. Oh yeah, yeah, they'll still sing the hook to that. Oh yeah. You could, we could, that's those songs even again, not like

you planned it or whatever, but those songs have become anthems. I mean, we can literally go probably in any part of the world and set up on a stage and play Youth Nation alive and boom and people are going to be like, oh, I've heard that. Yeah. I've heard that. Right. Which is, we still trip out on that to this day.

That's kind of like the power of music. Yeah. That they could be sort of like not that invested as fans, but music makes so much sense to people that even a song that they rocked out to however many times on the radio at some point or whatever could still have this chunk of their head. They hear that song and it still brings them joy. Whether they know your band, like your band, whatever, it just happens to, I think those songs just happen to hit in a certain moment in time, the right song, the right, everything

that it will be remembered. Right. And that's not, again, I don't think we could, we couldn't have sat in the studio before and said, let's write a song that's going to do all those things. Yeah. You can't do that. No. It just, it just, because of 9-11, because of, the, the, you couldn't, the, you know, the, the,

the state of the world at that time, you know what I mean? It was just people were looking for answers. And we happened to be, if probably the only rock and roll band of any type of angst or any type of like, you know, a little bit of heaviness that they weren't afraid to listen to because our message was positive. Whereas the slip knots of the world and even the hate breeds of the world, even a name hate breed. It's kind of more destructive. Yeah.

In 9-11, no one wants to hear a song from hatebreed. It's nihilistic. It's fuck everybody. You know, it's, yeah, I mean, like, there was a moment there where that song kind of became, you know, like an anthem. Because it spoke to positivity and it gave people the hope that they kind of needed it. For that moment, they weren't looking all around. They were like, okay, this is our world right now. We need something positive.

It's crazy. Every day, that's what I want. Most of it, we're looking for whatever comes our way. I was just watching this YouTube video about how 9-11 killed rollerblading. Because after 9-11, it felt like this was just too silly. too yuppie, too corny for people to embrace. I was just reading about this, and I was wondering if I agreed with it. But it occurs to me that either way, like 9-11 definitely shifted the fucking culture in so many ways.

Well, now after that article, rollerblading will be the next trend come next month. Well, see, that's the thing is I watched this documentary about rollerblading. They came out in 2006, and that's how it ends. It's like, oh, but rollerblades totally making a comeback. It's such a hardcore sport. And I've been loosely paying attention to it. and it's been 15 years since that documentary and I don't see it happening.

You'd be surprised, bro. When we hit the skate parks and stuff, I still see cats tearing it up. They're out there, but the industry is small. But actually during COVID, the rollerblading industry went up a bit. Yeah, when roller skates, roller skates did too.

Did it? Roller skates is huge right now. You're a fan of that? My wife is. I'm a fan too, because my girl made me, you go do it once I'm in a roller rink, and I actually got right back into the groove of it

like I was 13 again, and I was having a good ass time. couples dance or couple skate oh that's so yeah well she rented it out for a photo shoot so we didn't have anybody else around so I didn't even have to like think about what I mean I have no idea who's a roller rink in Glendale in the middle of the day on a Tuesday is typically but I didn't even have to worry about anybody looking at me that's great dude I think it was earlier in the year we we were

looking online because it just became the thing and we couldn't you couldn't even find skates like online really because it was just like you said because of COVID I mean but everything went up skateboarding went up all kinds of shit home production. I was in that business. We had a bike shop on Melrose the shutdown right before COVID,

and oh my God, bike sales went through the roof after that. Oh, dude. Kids just want to be normal. And we're forcing, not forcing them, but we should be making them get outside when it was just time to get off the games

and get off the computer. Get outside. Go outside and breathe. Enjoy yourself. Yeah, 100%. The other thing about the alive song was like, I was reading the comments and it's been re-uploaded on YouTube.

the upload that's up right now has only been there for a year or so, I think. It still has like 7 million views in a year, but the comments are all people talking about, this is the song that saved me from committing suicide. This is the song when I quit heroin. This is what got me through it. It's like, it's eerie. How many of those comments are saying the same thing.

It's kind of fucking crazy. Bro, if it, because I'm, I hate, I hate this industry. I do. Not surprised, but many people end up there. Because it's so, just, it's so fake in general, just this whole music game, especially now, I would have, like I said,

I never knew our band was going to be around almost 30 years. I didn't expect it to happen. But, you know, thank God it provided all kinds of things, not only for, you know, whatever, for my life, for my family, you know, it's provided for them. But now it's even different nowadays. So it's like the only reason why I continue to tolerate the nonsense that goes on in the music industry is because there's not a show that we don't play.

And I don't even read the comments, but I already know that they're there. There's not a show that we don't play that I don't run into whoever. And you can hear you rock so many times. You can hear how badass you are so many times. And that doesn't do it. I don't need that. But it's those comments. It's like, dude, your music changed my life.

I had a gun in my mouth and a live came on the radio. I had a gun in my mouth when the number of songs I heard came on. Same thing, whether I was addicted for 30 years, whether it was broken home, everything. And it's like your music is what got me on the right path. And again, that's no power of, I don't have that power. But that's why I decided or I chose to jump in a band and play music that I knew nothing about was because of the things I was going.

through in my life and I knew that if my life was changing for the good and you know if I can scream that on the microphone then maybe one person will listen yeah if at first it wasn't even about one person it was really just about my neighborhood and my street so if my homies could see that I've changed or they can see that I'm different or if the neighborhood could see that that there's something to what I believe in then maybe it might maybe they might embrace it right you know and it's just been 30 years later I'm so fascinated by the idea of like you writing that song in the moment as a young man and then it's still like you're basically like repeating like every time you're perform a show you're sort of like just taking

yourself back to that chunk of time when you made that song and I mean does does your relationship change with that song over and over and over over the years as you play it or or is it's amazing is it like reconnecting with an old friend every time we just got I was we finished our tour last We just did two months of here in the States of our satellite 20th anniversary. So we just toured that and we played the album from front to back. And it was amazing. The only thing that was different was that we played it from front to back and satellite is the second song on the record where we're normally used to ending our set with that feeling,

you know, like that feeling alive. So that was the only thing different. But no matter where you go, like you said, you play that song in any language, any continent. They're singing that song. And that's just a, it's, I can't describe that. Right. But I also can't say that I didn't know that it was going to do that. But to this magnitude, it still blows my mind that we can still get up and play that song.

And people are crying or they're, they're smiling or, you know what I mean? Are you guys big in South and Central America, I would assume? Yeah, South America's, we do really well in the Latin countries. You were torn down there, like early on and stuff and trying to build up that. No, no, we weren't, which was, which was crazy. We actually didn't go to South America until, I want to say, like, until like 2013, 2014. Oh, wow. So, again, it's just the, it's just the, it's the powers it be.

It's the label stuff, you know what I mean? And we never had gone down it, but when we did, we were so blown away by the turnouts that it was like, this is bananas. But again, I mean, we're a blue-collar band. We're not this. A lot of these bands are you see, bro, they don't need to play. They don't need to put out records. They can give them away for free. They can act, this certain way they can do that.

So they are not hustling. POD is, we have been hustling for the beginning. We will always be hustling. As much as we want to go and tour our butts off in all these different countries, at the end of the day, because the budget is in our hands, you don't make money. Right. It's just tough. You gotta fly out.

Just the band is five people. A couple more people. In your crew, just imagine all that, all that stuff. So everything that you make in your guarantee goes into all your expenses and your overhead. So it's like, it's not like we don't want to, but, you know, unless we're on tour with Metallica or something, you know what I mean?

Doesn't usually make sense financially to get out there? It never makes sense financially. But we still do it, which is crazy because in 2019, we went and toured, we, tour, we did two tours in Europe, which we didn't even do in our, during satellite, which was crazy. Because we went there in early 2019, the response was so crazy off our new record that we were like, why don't we come back again? So we, we did a second leg of that tour at the end of the year, and it was, it was a success. For sure. When you were really in the heat of that

period of a couple years where you guys are on MTV every day and it's going crazy on the radio and everything. What was it like with the label? Do they all of a sudden just get a lot more involved once you guys are really starting to print some money for them? Or what was that relationship like? Well, the first record, fundamental elements of South Town, when that went platinum, then it forced the powers

at the label to be like, okay, we can't, we have to act like we care about these guys. Right. So, but not to say that we didn't build great relationships with the help, which were our people, that loved our band, and we built relationships with them, and they were the ones. It was that team over Atlantic that really did it for us,

helped our career. They were a part of everything we were doing. So then again, when a live comes out, the video's number one on TRL, that's number one rock radio. And so it's not that they're not paying attention now, but okay, they got a little, we're an investment now, before we weren't. Right. Now they're invested into us.

Labels are still the same, you know. Right, still the same. you know fucking attention but then all of a sudden they see a good opportunity to make a bunch of money boom they're all over it but even platinum made them care a little bit but then the moment you know all of a sudden you're 9-11 hits and all of a sudden the tensions on p o'tie people care about p o d it was like let's get behind these guys and act like we're we are part of the family and it's it wasn't that was never the case right i mean there were family there but the rest of them was uh but they're just trying to make their money i mean even before like

because we were this is a stigma we've tried to fight forever we're not this christian but because of our faith, people want, they put that on you. So everybody knew that. Atlantic Records, even at that time, it wasn't until we started selling records that they even came to us. And they're like, are there any other bands out there like you guys, Christians? And it was like, okay, well, there's, we know some bands that are cool. And, you know, they, yeah, they signed a lot of them. And there's a lot of them made back their money.

There's still some out there today that are successful. So, but it wasn't. about like, okay, let me get behind these guys because they have something to say. It was like, oh, let me get behind these guys because I can make my money. Definitely. That's all they care about. How big a percentage of your fan base do you think was coming from the Christian community at that time?

I mean, if we've sold 12 million regs, it definitely ain't 12 million Christians about it. You know what I mean? At the time, I mean, we were underground. Like, we sold, you know, I mean, obviously there were kids that shared the same faith and same beliefs that I believe were kind of like the steam behind it because we want. weren't this cheesy choir boy, whack, Christian band. Because especially at that time, I remember that there was very much like the Christian hardcore scene or the Christian metal scene. I'm sure it's still like that to some extent.

But like for me as a person who didn't identify with that, I just remember looking at that and like even being kind of nervous to listen to you guys or to think like, oh, I'm going to check that band out. because it felt like Christian music was inherently corny. And when I look back at that, it seems very strange, just that we were so quick to put people in groups. You look at Main Street, and I have, this is no disrespect towards any of these bands.

And again, I wasn't raised that way. I didn't listen to these bands, but I only know it because of my position. Where I still hear guys that were like, when I grew up, all I was allowed to listen to was Christian music. And then when that comes into the first band they say or group they say is DC Talk. Right, yeah.

So I'm like, I didn't know who DC Talk was. You know what I'm saying? So I don't, there's no, I love those guys. I mean, as far as the dudes I met, you know what I mean? There's no disrespect there. But that's what people consider Christian rock or Christian music or Striper. I just had to put DC Talk in my notes so that I could like look, look up more information about them.

Because I just remember seeing them as a kid, but I don't really like actually remember the story. But I remember Striper too. But it wasn't because I was like, I listened to Christian music, quote unquote. it was like those guys actually made some noise in the rock and roll scene. But to me, I just remember seeing guys with yellow and black tights that look like girls. And I didn't like that music anyway. So I was like, you guys are Christians? You know what I'm saying?

I remember at that, not really at that time, but a little later on, I remember hearing than like 2007 MySpace rock type era that there was such a strong like Christian metal scene that there would be a lot of bands who sort of pretended to be Christian just to sell more records or just to get a fan base. Well, yeah. I think POD blew down a lot of those doors where it was like, okay, well, that's not just

that Christian band. They're like, oh, that's POD. You can be cool. But I knew. Because we were very open with our faith, and we started to get pigeonhole, we already knew every time we jumped on a stage that we had to be 30 times better than the band we're playing. Playing with. And that

was it. It was never, we never got up and made this grand statement that we're a Christian band. It was like, no, we're just, we're a band. You know what I mean? Like, people even realize that you guys were Christian. Was it just through the lyrics or was there ever a moment where sort of that was like the headline is like, look at this Christian band. They're great.

Well, when you listen to our first couple records, again, being young kids, it's very, the lyrics are, they are cheesy and they're very, but they're very militant. They're not necessarily cheesy. They're very militant in a way that was like, because we, we come from the street. So it was like when I became, and I don't even like saying Christian because people don't, they get that twisted. I believe in Jesus. Right. And that's a whole different conversation.

That's not white, Americanized Western Christianity. That is Jesus. Okay. So when I took on Jesus coming from the streets in the neighborhood, I already knew there was going to be backlash. I already knew and even reading simple scripture that even Jesus said himself, if the world hates you, it's because they hated it. me first. So what does that do to me as just a guy that's just kind of going through scripture? Don't really know much yet. It puts me in defense mode. And because I'm from the streets, it's like, ain't nobody going to tell me that I can't love Jesus. Ain't nobody

going to come against my Jesus. And so that was the mentality. So when you listen to a lot of the lyrics, it wasn't, again, not cheesy. It wasn't choir boy like kumbaya. It was like, you're lucky that I'm a Christian or that I love Jesus because if I wasn't, that be on you, you know what I'm saying? Does it strike you that the version of Christianity that you related to very much also had to do with, like, you being Hispanic from San Diego, et cetera, where I think Christianity is just sort of viewed from a different lens than a lot of maybe the, like, young teen, you know, white kids that were maybe drawn to the band. For sure. But even when I was a kid, I mean, we grew up like, you know, my grandmother's and mother were from Italy. so they inherit the Catholic world.

You know what I'm saying? So I knew that. But again, that's not, that was never Jesus to me. That was this Catholic religion that I saw a lot of rules and regulations and that. But even my, it wasn't like my family was immersed into it. You know what I mean? It wasn't like, it wasn't this lifestyle. It wasn't this life changing thing.

It was just, it's just titled religion. So, but it wasn't until. And so I didn't know, you know, now you see another place where Christianity. is and the groups that it fits, that was never my thing. But because I come from a young, broken, you know, drug dealing, crazy family, the moment my family started to believe in Jesus, it was real. It was undeniable. So that wasn't religion to me. That wasn't cheesy, corny, Christian, whatever. It was like, oh, damn. This is, okay, this deserves a little respect. So it was always here in my mind

It was always something that I never had like I didn't grow up as you know Most kids grow up and they're like So why do you hate God? Like I don't know I just do Or I grew up that way or whatever Whatever they turned them off to God I was never like that

It was just I just didn't know who God was So and I didn't embrace And I definitely didn't embrace again This westernized blue-eyed blonde hair Institution of Christianity I didn't I didn't I was anti it to be honest with you. But I wasn't angry

at God. It was just like, I just don't like that establishment. But then once I seen real people changed, that was undeniable, it was like, you know, and then when my mom got sick, and then it was like, okay, well, and I watched her change from selling drugs and do all the stuff.

It was like, wow, she's actually this beautiful person that's in love with Jesus. And it's real. It's not Christianity. It's not church, this thing. It's real. So when I saw all that. And then when I watched her, you know, on her dying bed, it was like, I owed it to her to look into it, if that makes sense. And so, and it wasn't on anybody's terms. It was just,

so I did. Was your faith, did your faith stop you from maybe necessarily, you know, indulging and a lot of the things that become available to you once you're a rock star? I'm thinking drugs, I'm thinking women. Did you, how did you do in regards to self-control and that? in that world. I mean... And the band as a whole. I'm just interested to know how hard the debauchery got. Oh, for sure.

It's just still hard every day, but you ain't got to be in a rock band to get lost up in this twisted world. Very true. So, but for me, there was always, again, through reggae music, through just my learning, it still made me want to be this man of God that, you know, I don't even know it's still attainable, but yet I'm going to try my hardest. You know what I mean? So I married my my sweetheart who's who's, I'll be married 25 years in a couple weeks, been with her almost 31 years a few days ago.

Never been with another woman. Wow. I've never, I mean, I smoked a lot of herb back in the day, but to me that wasn't a drug. So it was like, but that was something I gave up not because someone said you have to give this up if you want to be a good Christian. It was like, herb is everything to me in my life right now. And now that I'm making sacrifices and trying to be this. At least that's one thing I can put down for now, you know, or whatever, to, to, because it's, it's not, that isn't my God. And so, but, and so again, as we continue to go on and all of a sudden you take four guys from the neighborhood and you're at, you know, Russell Simmons, death jam party.

And you know, you know, it's, it's rock and roll. It's glamour. It's glitz. So of course you're going to, you know, I mean, I can honestly say, I've been, I've been pretty good. I can say that, but it's not like you're just going to, I never turned away in this. now I'll be religious way that was like I can't be a part of that. It was like, no, I want to know what the world's going. It was what's going on in the world. But it's not like I stepped in and said, let me, let me, let me compromise everything that I believe in. Definitely, that was never a heart or intention to do that. And again, not that I'm nobody.

I'm not perfect. I'm not, I'm not the super giant in the faith. It's some spiritual giant. It's just like, you know, deep down inside, it's just, I just trying to be a good dude. That's all. Was there a lot of pressure on you? Because at a certain point, I feel like, you know, you're famous. And some percentage of the audience wants you to be this version of this religious figure.

You know, they listen to their songs. They mean the world to them. And then they maybe find out that you're flawed or that you're not, you know? News report. I'm flawed. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, like, it's got to be a lot of pressure.

Because people want you to be Jesus, right? I'm both ways. And that made me bitter towards a lot of. of so-called Christians in the beginning too, because it was like, we were not your poster child of your personal faith. You know what I mean? I mean, that's cool that you love us and, you know, but a lot of it, the people that get it, get it.

I'm just a man. But you shouldn't judge me any more harshly than you judge your friends, your family. Exactly. I'm flawed just like you, yeah. But they do. And not only that, when I, you know, said that prayer to give my life to God, I thought that I was doing this amazing thing, which was a big step for me, and then all of a sudden I was going to be embraced by this faith.

It was the exact opposite. I mean, in the street you are in the neighborhood and stuff, but then once we got in this band, it was like, dude, we had no idea that that community was the same community that would come against us and say, well, you're not of God because you have tattoos. You're not of God because your music is definitely not of God. And those beliefs still happen today.

It's not as common. Because I think we've broken a lot of those stereotypes. I think religious people on average now are less judgmental and less rigid, I would think. To some degree, but they're still there. Yeah. And I hate that. I can't stand it. So you'd be surprised at how many people came against us.

And if anything, it was that religious system that confirmed that we were supposed to be making music for everyone and not. because we were already messing, whether it was keg parties, anywhere that would listen to our music, and we were catching a buzz in San Diego. It wasn't until the first time that we actually played a church that my guitar plays he went to when he was a kid. It was a very strict church. I didn't know this.

There were just going to be a lot of kids from other, you know, cities coming in. They were all going over to Mexico to help build an orphanage. And they were like, someone asked if we want to jam and for these young people before they, you know, they throw this, let's have a party, right? church parties have it. So we went, I went with all my homies that aren't even saved. If you were to look at the Motley crew there, you know, I get it why people say you guys aren't

Christians or whatever, but the moment we played our first song, and we got a buzz in the streets already, the moment we play our first song, one of the dudes, youth group pastors or something, he stopped us writing our first song and said, oh, no, no, no, we can't have this. Just because it was heavy. Because it was heavy. Damn. So, and the disappointment I'll never forget on these kids' face was like to this day, because I'll never

forget, because here we are, and this is what religion does to you. These kids are sitting there. They got no life in them. They got no soul. It's almost like they're just being obedient because they want to go to heaven. They have to go build a damn orphanage in T.J. because their mom and dad said they got to do it because if they want to be good little

boys and girls in Christian religion, they have to. And they're sitting there with no life. The moment we started playing, I'll never forget the look. They came to life. They came to life. And it was like there was freedom all of a sudden. And we started playing. And then when he stopped us, it's just like,

they ripped the life and the freedom right out of their soul. And it was like, and I'll never forget the dude, he stops my guitar player, literally by grabbing his guitar, which don't ever do that. Whoever, if you're listening to this, don't ever do that before. You might get chin checked. You're lucky he didn't that night, but we were in a church. So he did that.

And he said, oh, no, no, no, we can't do this. And then as all the kids and young people were just, defeated, he said, let's give these guys, you know, whatever, I'll never forget, bro. Five crisp ones for their, for their effort. So like robots, these kids, literally five crisp ones. I literally grabbed the mic out of this dude's hand. I was like, and I just said, don't be bummed for us. We play music all the time. Like, it's not about us. It's not about music. I'm like, the fact that you're coming to my neighborhood to go to a country that needs whatever help they can get,

that's what this is about. We were just here to hype you up in doing the good that you're going to do. You know what I'm saying? And out of love, out of obedience to your faith. But it's like, dude, don't be defeated. Because this guy is not going to, he's not tearing us down. But that was confirmation for us to keep playing in the streets, keep playing in the bars that we couldn't even get into because we weren't even 21.

Keep playing, opening up for these evil secular bands, quote unquote, you know what I'm saying? But you never had any qualms about playing with secular bands now. Never. It was just, but see, you said you grew up in the hardcore scene. If you were in the hardcore scene, it's because you believed in something. That's the problem with Mo's music today. They don't believe in nothing. Tell me which hip-hop artist right now, which pop star, you know, you could sit there and

I mean, there's social causes, there's things, but that's all secondary to the money and the fame that they have. Yeah. So what, and I'm sure I'm not going to discredit at all, but people don't care about that stuff. There's not, there's, you know, so whatever. For us, it was like, this is, this is what we want to do, we want to inspire, you know, we want to play whatever and whoever would listen to us. It started to piss us off when this, quote unquote, secular world put us in this box because of our faith. But like I said, with that hardcore scene, we were playing with guys, you know, whether you were vegan, whether you were straight-edge, whether you were Krishna, whether you were whatever, you know? You know how I know about your show?

Why? Because I follow the homie Danny Diablo and you have money. So I was like, I looked up because he was big in you up. And I was like, dude, this is sick. That's what's up. But see, whatever, he's not straight-edge, you know what I'm saying? But because he was a part of that scene, it's just there's a respect that's given. And I don't care what you believe in.

There's a respect that's given when it's earned, whether you agree or not. And of course, it just seems so crazy when you think about people who are thinking about, you know, how Christians should behave that way. Because, I mean, your goal is to be you and then go out into the world and perhaps spread some part of what you believe in to the world. And when we think about every other sort of like fringe viewpoint or whatever, it's like we don't give vegans a hard time because they don't hang out with people who meet. We don't give people who are straight-edge a hard time because they go and hang out with some guy who smokes weed. That sounds crazy nowadays. But to put that expectation on people who are religious, it's just so bizarre and I think it was such a sign of the times, although I'm sure it still happens in that scene now. For sure.

But that's why even when we started to be labeled as Christian, this, that, it's like, how come, you know, when MCA converted to Buddhism, they weren't Buddhist hip-hop all of a sudden, you know what, whatever was. there was a bunch of bands back in the Navy shelter, all those guys that were Christian. It was like, I mean, they said it, but I don't think, I don't even know if that ever existed. Like we're a Christian a band. But it's so weird because it's like, because Christianity is sort of the

inherent religion of America, then the average American will feel comfortable taking a Christian band to task about not being Christian enough. Even though the average American is not nearly as Christian as probably you guys were. That's such a

like a bizarre thing where they feel critical, be comfortable being critical of it, whereas on the other hand, it's not like any people were like picking apart the bad brains as Rastafar, I believe, because we don't know enough to do it, you know? Like I said before, Marley, everybody praised Marley as being this one love

person, was like, yeah, again, his lyrics were, a lot of his lyrics were scripture. And they were scripture based, but because he smoked herb and, you know, it's like, you're not, oh, he's cool. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, but, okay, but even if you listen to now, I said this before, Marley himself would be canceled culture today

because of the things that he said. Right. Right. I mean, you remember one love, but if you go deep, there's a lot of stuff that are scripture-based, that the world don't want to, they don't want to mess with it. And his actual story is pretty unbelievable. Yeah, for sure. Just being wrapped up in all the politics and street shit out there and everything.

And then the assassination, you know, but, but I mean, it's like what we said earlier. I mean, Jesus said if the world hates you because they hated me first. So I believe that that's a part of it. But I also believe that there's a part of this Christian institution that is so, for this westernized institution that is so hypocritical for the last whatever years, that of course. So when we see them, of course you're waiting for somebody to fall because you're like, dude, you act perfect, you act holier and better than people.

So why aren't you looking for the moment that they fail? they kind of set themselves up in a way I mean I don't look for anybody's failure but it's like people are waiting for that person to fall because because why he's been so freaking religious he hasn't had grace he doesn't live in those boundaries of love

and empathy and compassion it's just like you can do this you can't do that and in the moment you actually show your true colors that you actually are flesh and human being of course someone's going to take you down for it because you were on that microphone screaming everybody else is the sinner and not you.

You know what I mean? Humans are weird. Cubans suck. But you have to love them. Right. Or it's going to be chaotic and this world is just going to continue to get worse. Okay. So you guys are kind of like rotting this wave, this height of popularity and stuff.

Is there a lot of pressure on you for singles or records to sort of reach the same heights that you had already achieved? Um, I don't think there was. I think it was necessary pressure, but it was definitely encouraged to be like, hey, okay. But it didn't take much encouraging because like I said earlier, we were like, okay,

we don't want every record to be the same. I mean, if you listen to all P.O.D.'s records, they're not. They're not, none of them are the same. We're not trying to duplicate our hits. It's like we're just right because we're a band and we make music. We did try, you know,

obviously to sing a little bit more to find, you know, the hooks and songs. And we were just learning how to just structure songs in general. You know, it was their second record with a real producer. And I think on that first record, he, you know, he actually kind of taught us what a song was, whether it was verse chorus, verse, you know what I mean? It was just kind of, there really is a structure to it, you know what I mean?

And you guys were kind of oblivious to that previously? Not oblivious, but we were just, I mean, if you listen to some of our independent stuff, we have like seven-minute songs, you know, we have five verses. Right. You know what I mean? Because we weren't like radio listeners, you know what I mean? It was just like, even now, like, they would never play like a, a, Pink Floyd or Zeppelin, you know, they'll play them now because they're who they are.

Right. But that's part of the politics and that's the stuff that I hate where whoever's hot, I remember at one point, because Lincoln Park was when they hit the top of the world, at one point it was like the perfect song is, you know, it was three minutes, 30 seconds in that area. And I remember when Lincoln Park had a hit song and they were in the two minutes something, that's how silly it is. Yeah. Where it's like, they'll go down to that, where it's like, oh, now it's, it's

accepted because it's, that's what a hit song is. But all of a sudden, you find yourself in the position where you have the label caring about things like song length and wanting you to make certain types. Yeah, well, with the producer, it was, it was, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, he, it's common sense. He just showed us, you know, we weren't like this jam band or whatever. We already put out independent records that we got to be ourselves fully naked, you know what I mean? Just like raw and now, but now we're part of a label and we're part of a label and we're part

of a real record that maybe these are just important things to take, you know, it's not like we were for us it was just like, okay, cool. What was going on with the boom video? It feels like that was that era where all the rappers were spending so much on music videos that the bands

kind of started to get in on it and were doing like weird almost like movies like in their music. For those who don't know, it's like a very intense ping pong battle in the video. It sounds, if you think I'm lying, I wouldn't blame you because it sounds crazy, but it's pretty cool. No, no, I think that, actually that budget was probably, I think we probably saved money on that budget. The live budget and the youth budget was massive.

But even then, if you would have asked us, now with technology, it's so much easier, but you're right. It's like everybody's bragging, Jay-Z's got a million dollar video and so-and-so topped it, you know, whatever. And all of a sudden, we're doing a live video, and then they tell us what the budget is. And, you know, again, we're guys from the street. None of us own our own houses back then, you know what I mean? It's like, this is, you're going to spend how much on a video? not knowing fully and 100% completely that we'd have to recoup all that later anyway. So you're just playing with our money, our future money anyway.

Right. Which is a whole another story. Right. But that video, I think after Alive came out and Youth a Nation came out there, it was such serious content. South Town was us, you know, in the neighborhood. And then Boom is more, it wasn't a serious song. And it was us being more lighthearted and flossy and having fun.

And normally when you get these treatments from these directors, whatever, everything is more hard and serious. And we want to capture you guys and graffiti and low-right, you know, the same thing that we're used to. And it's like, and I probably would have went that way because that was the norm, but it was actually the one treatment from this cat and our guitar player, who's, you know, he's a more indie kind of guy. He was like, I really like that.

The ping pong video. What, that's lame, dude. But it was like, we really got convinced that, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't always be portrayed as just this one element that's always graffiti. It's always low-riders. It's always this street hard element. And we just came off with Alive and Euthanation, and we weren't trying to be as serious. So that movie, I mean, that video was really lighthearted.

Right. It was great. Personally, I loved it. But if you notice at the end, we did get into a fight. Right. It's just such a sign of the times. I'm like, wow, this is a beautifully 90s video right here. Yeah, it was fun.

Yeah. I think that that director went on to do some really cool movies after that. Really? A lot of our directors, even the director that did Alive. I think he went on to do some huge movies. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy.

Okay, but so do you feel like you guys were fairly compensated in terms of like what you should have been building financially at that time? Or do you look back at that time? Like, damn, I wish our business had been more in line. Everybody knows, and you've heard this already, it said the labels were designed to keep the artists in your. dead. That's just, I mean, look at every Hollywood true e-story, whatever. And especially when you get, whether it's, you know, guys like us, it's like we don't come from much, so we're not, we don't need, we don't need much as far as we don't, and we're

not like flossing, so we don't, we're not fronting like that. But you feel like, okay, when money's coming in, it's cool. and then, you know, a lot of times you feel like, you know, we're on top of our game, and it's always going to be like this. You know what I mean? And that's an ignorance that probably anybody that faces that kind of success has to deal with.

You know what I mean? But now, we didn't know back then that no one was going to buy records again. You know what I mean? We didn't know. We toured our butts off forever, putting in work, thinking that later down the line, we would have a lot more say,

in our touring game and our touring world. And, you know, because we are, we have kids, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to tour 13 months out of the year and not raise my kids. Right. I'll quit music. I quit yesterday, you know what I mean? But we did work hard in the beginning when our kids were super young for those reasons. But then once they don't start, let's see, no one's buying records and we're that band

that makes money from shows and from touring. Right. And we, even, even when people think POD and they think, think that mainstream. And oh, I saw you guys all over MTV, all this stuff. We missed that cap. We missed that cap of like big deals, you know, with the corns of the world and all those guys that you hear this their offspring.

Oh, they got, even lately, they got 60 million for their catalog. It's like, or, you know, even back then, corn got this or these bands got this. And it's like, that didn't happen with us. Yeah. We've always been hustling. So we don't know that world. It's kind of nice to be like the biggest band in the genre. and obviously they get some benefits from sort of having been that.

I mean, you guys were a very popular band, but like there's just a certain level of like success that you're going to see when you're that gigantic fucking band like corn became, you know? When you're on true, but again, it comes with certain labels, certain people, certain people that are behind you to do stuff, we were on that trajectory, right? And then a lot of it faded out with a lot of the muses that come and people trying to copycat and duplicate that sound and stuff that wasn't really authentic.

But then not only that, we were on, you know, with that third record, we had a fallout with our guitar player. And even then it wasn't like, okay, we sold a million records. You'd think, oh, we should get paid out those million records. It doesn't happen that way. All of a sudden, satellite comes out. We're looking at four or five, six million worldwide. we, okay, after this record, it's like we're going to get broken off, right?

It doesn't happen that way. It's always in negotiations. So during that record, from satellite to the next record was our negotiation, and this is what we've been working hard. Now we call the shots, right? We've put ourselves in a position.

Now we can start hustling and willing and dealing with the labels. So we did that, right? They know that they owe, they know how many albums we sold and they know how much money they owe us, but they're not going to give you what they owe you. They're going to, it's like buying a house.

It's just like buying a house, whatever. You're going to wheel and deal, right? Or at the flea market. You know what I'm saying? You're going to hustle. That's exactly what they did. Boom, boom, boom, all this stuff. Numbers.

And these are good numbers, right? Which probably could have probably set us up. Good numbers. Nah, that's not, we're going to, that's not going to work. Good number. We're wheeling and dealing, right? It's going up and up. We're doing our job, right?

We got a good hustle. The moment we had a falling out with our guitar player and we split ways, whatever, that's a whole different conversation. The moment they found that out, instead of going up, and here was our original offer, they went like this, but, you know. Why? Because we're, now we can't, we're not the same dream team that did what we did. Yeah, but one monkey don't stop the show.

That's what I say. And that's been proven, but. Right. I mean, a guitar player, if you leave, then. then they should get much less money. Because they're the biggest hustlers in the, you know, again, the label. Right. They're the biggest hustlers in the world.

What are we going to do? Wow. So at one point, and then even then, and that was around the time, so whatever, we did the deal. We moved on. We still have success, but that's the time when all the labels and everybody started crumbling. Lights are getting shut off at the offices. All the, it's around 2004. I remember.

The writing is on the wall about streaming and Napster and everything at that moment. And at that point, here we have a number one song, again, third record, we do, right? Number one song, number one TRL, whole nine. Right. We're on tour with Lincoln Park, biggest, right, whatever. Right. We already recorded our second video, going to second single. That stuff never even hit.

They never even hit the radio, never hit MTV because all the labels were shutting down. And at that point, it was like, you know, it's all about investment. It's like, do we, we already got what we wanted from these guys. Right. Now, maybe if they would have gave us that big advance, they would have kept hustling us because they got to make back their money. But the fact that what they paid us and they can move on to different things, again, it's not like they were like, oh, we are team POD thick and thing.

It was like, no, we jumped on them when they made us money. Right. And we wrote it out until now, all right, there's a little confusion in the camp. Just a little bit. It doesn't mean it can't be worked out. little confusion in the camp and then and there were all the people that was our team they were you know not our team in general but just workers in general

firing people from other labels they were they were shutting down they were firing people people at the labels were more concerned about keeping their job than they were pushing their bands right so when that record came out still did still did well their next record came out they spent all this money they um there was no interest anymore and they were shelving our stuff So we were about to jump into a fifth record. And because of our contract, we had a big record advancement. And at that point, we were like, we would rather just leave this dang label

because we're going to put our heart and soul again into another record and knowing you guys aren't going to do anything with it. Like, why would we do that? And how much of a fight did they put up in terms of you leaving? Just give us a greatest hits record. That's what they said. Well, why would they get a fight? Because they're advanced.

that they were going to give us as... Right. They don't... Yeah, I mean, once a label starts thinking short-term, once everybody becomes concerned strictly with their short-term incentives, then all of a sudden, the band that, you know, just takes a lot of work or might take a little time,

just gets shelved. And that was even 20 years ago, so even then we were saying, like, you labels, you're not looking for the next Led Zeppelin. You're not looking for the next, like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever, you two, or whatever bands, Even Metallica, to stand the test of time. And that's what's happening

in even music today. They just want, dude, it's all hype. I mean, how many artists right now do you think that we might even like that you're going to say is going to be... Tough to say.

Because we're just consumers. I mean, we're consumers. So we're not in it. I mean, maybe that's just the world in general these days. We're not in it for the long haul anymore. We're just like, I'm just scrolling. I feel like in a lot of ways, you know, rappers or even bands sometimes are kind of like memes in the sense that, you know, you're scrolling through your timeline, you see them a meme, you're like, you send it to a couple of your friends, and then you never think about it again. And a lot of rappers, it's unfortunate for them, but that's kind of what their career ends up being reduced to is you have a cool song, you have a funny flow, you have an interesting, you know, beef or interesting storyline.

People are interested in you for a little bit, but then they ultimately end up just moving on to the next meme because that's what people do. with memes to then be able to take that moment of people paying attention to you because you had a hot song or because you had whatever and to turn that into an actual career where there's still be down to listen to your third fourth project i mean that's like a hercline effort yeah and i think that you know sucks it's cool to be a to be a rapper who gets his you know five minutes of fame i mean shit is better than you get no fame but yeah the industry is very very much set up to sort of give people this short burst of attention now. Yeah, we're, yeah, we scroll right past everybody.

So what does that do to your motivation and you guys as a band when all of a sudden the label just kind of becomes useless to you? Like, where do you go from there? Well, we had went through some things as a band and then it was just, you know, I mean, our other guitar player comes back, you know, we make, we make family, we heal the family there, right? it's all good. We move on.

And then there was just a, we had gone through so many different things, just, you know, real, real life stuff, even with members in our band. And for me, it was like, I had just gotten, I think this was around, I want to say 2009, where I was like, dude, I'm just so sick of,

I'm just, I'm tired of the game, this game, you know, this music game, I'm tired of, and we had just become kind of this brand. And it was fine. And it was like, and we used to always say in all our interviews back in the day, like, man, if this ever stops becoming fun, like, I don't want to do it anymore. Because we had watched all the bands. And even today, there's bands that are very, very successful and they don't even like each other.

Yeah. They all have different buses. They all stay in different hotels. They don't even talk or hang out until they play. And it's like, this is sad, you know, because we, even my guys, we're brothers. Yeah. So, you know, when there's a lot of stuff going on and it's just like, man, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to be just a number.

And so, you know, whatever. We took a little bit of time off. And in a long run, I mean, I could see how that even that hurts you. But we came back, you know, kind of on our own terms where it was like, I don't want to be a part of that system anymore. I'm not going to be the latest trend, you know, like we're, if you look at even a lot of the bands that are that we started with and even are still around, if you look through their, even their album cycles and stuff, dude, they're not the same guys. Yeah. They change. And like, you're not going to get that from me and my guys.

Right. We're not that band. We're not going to wear makeup when it's cool. You know, we're not going to, you know, we had tattoos before it was cool. Right. You know what I'm saying? If anything, those are the things that were authentic that made us pop a little bit more. Oh, that's that band.

Well, they're covered in tattoos. Or they're from, you know, they have street credibility, you know, whatever. Any of these things. Now that's stuff, you can buy that. You can buy that. Or you just say it. And it exists. There's no resume, right?

So there's at a point in time where, you know, we kind of counted the cost and we knew, like, man, at the end of the day, like, we want to be able to still do this and have integrity, have honor. And I don't think any fame or even to some point, any, even dollar is worth that. Right. Because it was, we saw that, you asked the question earlier, we saw that in some of the songs where it's like, they suggest a lot of things. Do they ever force you? No. But the moment you don't do exactly, take their advice, you're not going to. to get 100% of their push.

Right. So it's like we, you know, you know what kind of band you want to be. Then the moment they're telling you, well, this is what we think you should do. And then we're like, okay, cool, thank you for telling us, but we're still going to do what we want to do. Okay. So once you start to know that it's not going to go our way anyway, then it's like, why am I going to just continue to? Because then we're not a band anymore. We're just, we're just one of your products.

Right. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Like, is the band as it is right now? the original lineup or how close it's the original line everybody that is so unthinkable to me that you could get exactly what is it five guys four guys four guys on the same page about something 25 years ago or whatever long it was and that they could still be on the same page that many years later

especially coming from a rap perspective where every group breaks up within because they don't need each other yeah you know like guitarist can't go solo the fucking the the rappers they need each other but they still break up right over. I mean, they don't need each other, so they just break up right away. But for a band to stay on the same page, and has there been real strains on the relationships? Like, to what extent has that brotherhood really held you together? Oh, yeah. No, no, we're not always on the same page. You know, I mean, we say this, I've said this for a minute. There's so many things, you know, in the 23 hours of the day that don't make sense. And whatever, we were kids when we started. And now, whatever, we have, you know, we, we

We have different ideas and different opinions and different beliefs and all that stuff. And we don't, there was a long period of time where we felt like we always had to be the same, where we always have to agree, which now the more you mature you're like, dude, this doesn't change my love for you, you know what I mean? And it's kind of what makes it cool. And the music that we create is that we really, we are on the same page on a lot of things, which is fine. This is a relationship.

You know what I mean? This is, we're building something together. So we, you know, even now, there's a lot of stuff we don't agree, but that one hour or whatever that you play, those 23 hours of the day that you can be, we can even be mad at each other. We can even be not even talking to each other that day because you pissed me off about something. But that moment we play for that hour, magic. Really? It's magic. It's 30 years of, it's 30 years of everything that makes sense.

Muscle memory. Like the song, like if somebody fucks up the song a little bit, does everybody just else naturally? accommodates it, like it works in a way that could never happen. Well, I see, I see it like if a wife and a husband get divorced and they really don't get along, right? But they got a beautiful child that they love, right? And that child, say, is going to graduate whatever, college and get their degree and whatever, and there's a big, huge success outside their divorce or their hatred for each other. Are they going to both be at that ceremony and be that this don't matter anymore whether you agree on this or not?

or you don't like each other. What matters is that at least you did something, right? You know what I'm saying? This kid right here is about to go change the world. And at least we did something right. But the energy should be focused on that, not how much I can't stand you. And I'm not, my brothers, we can't stand you as harsh.

So we love each other. But, you know, are we, we have difference in opinions? Yeah. Right. It's what it is. And I mean, now I would assume all or most of the guys in the band have kids and wives? Oh, yeah, yeah.

I do. We're old, brother. So our kids are, I mean, my oldest is 21. She'll graduate from college this year. Right. My cousins' kids are older than that. Trey, our base player, his kids, grown military. They're all, yeah.

How old are your kids now? My oldest is 21, my middle. She's 17. And my son is 14. Wow. Yeah. I got an 11-month-old. So it's awesome.

You got a lot of years. in the game. Like I very much when I hear that, I feel like, you know, it's my first year in the NBA and I'm having to talk with Jordan, you know, like somebody who's been around way too long, seen it all, done it all. I have no idea what I'm in for. Yeah, yeah. You've done it enough times

that you're used to it. Oh, dude, I mean, you never know what you're doing, but you, when you do love and you care about your kids more than anything else in the world, then you do whatever it takes. And that's selfless living, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, me and my wife or my wife and I, we live for our children, and we want to help raise and build awesome human beings that are going to change the world. And so there's a lot of things in this world that sidetrack you from doing that, you know?

This is kind of like a selfish question just because this is something that I think about a lot. But you ever have to like leave your kid for a long period of time? And was that really difficult for you at times? Like, especially when you're just going on tour for like a month or whatever? Well, not me, but you can ask my wife that same question. She might have a different answer because, you know, I never thought of it as the luxury that, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say luxury, but yeah, I got to go. I got to go and play music on tour for a month, month and a half, two months. Right.

My wife never got, she didn't get to do that. So there, and we know that, okay, when I, that's why when I get home, it wasn't like, here, take your kids. It's just like, I got to do whatever I can to, to not put all of that pressure on my. my wife, you know what I mean? So, but I never really thought, oh, I got to get away from my kids. But I'm sure my wife has thought of that plenty of times. I mean, the inequality in that relationship in the sense that she's got to stay home for two months and take care of the kids while you're off traveling the world and hanging out all these

cool people and you're being adored on stage every night. You're treated like a god. Yeah. At some point in the new mother life cycle, that's definitely got to not sit so well with her. Yeah, yeah. We'll see. That's why I do the best that I can to make it up, you know, when I'm not, or when I am home. You know what I mean? Because she's, yeah, she's had to deal with a lot, but that's why she, you know, and that's why we're, that's why we're still together. She's, she's amazing. She's an amazing wife, amazing mother. And I don't know of many ladies and wives that have accomplished that.

You know, like I said, I've been, I'll be married 25 years, November 2nd, a couple days ago. It was 31 years when I asked her to be my girlfriend. Wow. So I don't know how many people, but see, she was with me before music. That's why I can see past the facade. That's why I can see past, right, that's why I can kind of identify what's real and what's not. You know, it's just your choice whether you believe it or not or follow it or not. At the end of the day, I'd rather have a happy,

life and do what I'm supposed to do, then try to be a rock star 24-7, you know? 100%. What was it like walking around for all those years with those long-ass dreadlocks? It's kind of like, yeah, I just imagine being that famous that people must have been coming up and touching them all the time. I didn't like when people would, you know, you wouldn't think people would do that, but they would, some people would ask, but some people just, oh my gosh, you know, that was always not cool. It's like a chick with a big ass. People think they can just kind of touch it.

People think, some people think they can just touch it. But you can't just do that. I mean, that should be like people's dreads too. You can't just touch. But, no, but that became, that was my identity for the longest time. Right. And that was, you know, more than the reason why I cut them at that time was just, this is what, this has become my identity. Right.

And that doesn't mean anything to me. me. So I can still erase this identity and still keep what matters. And so that was my whole process was, you know, was right around the time, like I said, when, you know, things were going on through the band and it was just like, dude, I don't need to be, I know who I am, you know what I mean? And so I don't need to be, this is not who I want to be what people want from me. Right. I'm trying to be the good husband. I'm trying to be the good daddy.

I'm trying to be the good neighbor. I'm trying to be a person that is not going to walk away from my faith when times get hard. And, you know, again, not perfect. But I need to hold on to the things that matter to me. And to me at that moment in time, it was stripping me of my, of whatever identity I thought people expected from me. Right. Because that's not important what you expect for me, you know. Right.

Have you battled with your faith? And is it important to you that everybody in the band is still on the same page in regarding their faith? Because I can't, it's really hard to imagine that all these guys would still be in the same exact place spiritually all these years later. It was, it was for the longest time. and I think that's what put a lot of strife between, you know, personal relationships was, for me, I'm just, I'm loyal and I believe that God is good and he's been good to me and my guys, knowing who we are, where we come from. And so it's just me trying to put it in compartmentalize it and not thinking that, oh, you're selling out to your faith,

you do this or do that or your ideals or whatever changes. And for a lot of time, it would be a battle. But now, you know, I've learned to let that stuff go and be like, because before I thought as a band, we all believe the same and I speak for the band, right, as head of this band. Then I came to a place where I was like, I don't speak for this band, but I'm okay with that. I speak for myself, which is now this, whatever, this season of life,

that I'm in, that that's the way it's supposed to be. I'm not, I'm not supposed to speak for you anymore. You're supposed to speak for yourself. And now I think that it's allowed me in our relationship to get a lot better. I mean, obviously, it's just, again, it's just ideas. It can be politics. It can be certain religious views or whatever.

I hate the word religion anyway, but certain views on the way things should be or not, whatever, this or that, it doesn't matter because that doesn't change us as people but obviously you know if you're sticking a needle in your arm you know shooting up heroin I'm not going to let you do that you know what I'm saying so that's a different type of type of thing

or if you're ruining your life right then it's not it's not about whether I think it's right or wrong you're ruining your life and it's wrong that's it but when it comes to differences of opinions that's a whole different thing so we've learned to and be better for it I believe for sure What keeps you going in terms of the band? Like, does it sometimes feel, I mean, honestly,

the fact that you guys are the same band must make it feel very natural and consistent? I guess I'm always kind of in shock when I see a singer of a band who has like, you know, a bunch of 20 year old guys now as his band and shit. And I'm like, this must feel so crazy for you to sort of be still reliving these old songs and stuff.

But with you as like a, you guys always been together. I mean, it must be amazing, yeah. It's a beautiful thing, man. And it's a, you know, again, like I said, that's what makes sense when we play, you know. And he, but, you know, even now, even when, like, there's times where, you know, somebody's had to jump in and fill in for somebody and it's like, you know, just knowing that they're always coming back to is, you know, in some sense, it's like, it's, okay, this is just whatever, this is the season we're in, whether it's stuff we're going through

as a band, but, yeah, it always makes sense when we're going together. Does anybody else in the band have side bands that they've been in over the years? Like, do you guys allow that? kind of looked down upon. We do now. At first, that was a, that kind of, that's part of the reason why, you know, we split up with our guitar player. It was kind of like a, you know, the secret thing. But now we've learned from that where it's not a secret thing.

And we learned that we, we all love making music. So everybody messes with different stuff. You know what I mean? I'm, uh, during COVID, I actually, I've always wanted to do a reggae project. And so I, um, I finished up a lot of stuff during the whole kind of home quarantine gig and and then now I've never done anything for myself as far as like personal stuff it's always been 100% POD

and it still is but there's a side of me now that just the older I get where I'm like I have to just get these things out so I'll be finishing up some solo music and doing some things that I've been wanting to do for a long time but it doesn't interfere with the band it's just I think nowadays

we're just not offended by that anymore you know it's like we live in a world with content hey you you need to be able to express yourself and get things out and do things that that make you happy and um you know so we've learned that for sure that's dope yeah man honestly it's just really cool to see you like still in a very good place and just like you know being motivated to keep this thing going because it's pretty remarkable that you guys are still a band after all these years and i mean i don't know i'm this uh i'm also kind of just in awe of the contribution, like just in the sense of like that that rap rock fusion that I still feel like

maybe one day will be like a really big consistent cultural phenomenon, but you guys have like a very, very important contribution to that. So I feel like even if maybe maybe the hip-hop audience doesn't immediately understand, maybe over time, hopefully this interview gives them a glimpse into that connection. Yeah, for sure, man. I just I try to mess with everything that's coming out. I don't want to be that old. guy now that's like, oh, this music sucks. And I'm very open-minded to that. But I really do appreciate that era and time when it's like, even those bands, it was like no one, they didn't sound the same. I mean, like corn didn't sound like Limp Biscuit, you know what I mean? Or we didn't

sound like corn. We obviously, we inspire and influence and we take all that stuff, but everybody was still pretty much an individual. And it was about, it really was about your music and making your mark where I see a lot of stuff. We talked about that earlier. Like, If you have the same writers that are writing for pop artists and then writing for rock and roll artists too? Where's the, like, it's just, it's diluting too fast and too quick. You know, when rock and roll or even, you know, one point was this rebellion music, hip hop. The same thing, rebellion music. There were certain things that you stood on your own.

And now it's just, there's such a blurred line with all of it and it's all become so Hollywood that it is rare. When you find that person, you're like, this dude or this dude. this lady is tight. I mean, I think about this a lot, but I compare like, you know, skateboarding and rock or rap, you know, in the sense of like there were all these years, I'm a BMX dude, so I think about in BMX terms, but skateboarding as well where like there's all these years

throughout the 70s, 80s, 90s where people are really like figuring out how skateboarding works. What are all these tricks? What are all these grinds? How do we put them together, et cetera, et cetera. And now when you look at skateboarding, it's like, there's tons of, tons of creative people out there.

But the ground rules of what this is have been essentially set in place. And people are sort of elaborating and building upon that. And that is kind of like the thing that is fascinating about rock music or rap even is that like in the 80s, in the 90s, you got to see these people figuring it out. Like how to fuck this is going to work. Like what is what is music going to sound like? And now a lot of times it just really feels like, you know, like I listen to like, in the 80s and 90s there's like a lot of metal

and hardcore that was produced really badly. That's one thing that when you listen to hardcore metal now, it's like oh my God, the engineering and the production is so good and then you listen to like a black metal band from the 90s and you're like Jesus Christ, like there's sorry, there's

so much for them to figure out that they were still working on and I just find that so shocking you know, it's like they figure out how metal works now and people, so it's much harder for somebody to really go outside of that. It's a formula. To do something new.

And that's what, but that is the thing that will get everybody excited when it does happen, you know? No, you're absolutely right. It's, it's become such a formula. And it's just, I don't know, it's, there's hope. Because when you, like I say, when you find someone who's dope, you're like, okay, there's, there's hope that there's, it's still not gone. Right.

There's a lot of stuff in, in all genres, we're like, this is just bad. Yeah. But I always equated the same way. Like, I'm a foodie. I love good food. I don't really eat much fast food except if I do, it's going to be like an out burger or Chick-fil-A, right? In my taco spot. But McDonald's is McDonald's for a reason. And you know it's bad for you. You know it's going to kill you. You know, it's garbage. It's garbage, but you like your McDonald's. Not everybody has the taste for some, not everybody's a

foodie. Not everybody has, they don't want, they don't want the gourmet burger. They want a crappy And I'm not saying it's crab because I remember my share. Consistent. Simple. Fast. I mean, there's just there's a lot of attributes that they do well in, even though there's also the stuff. The thing about McDonald's is that it wouldn't exist if everybody wasn't fucking buying it.

Apparently, McDonald's, if nothing else, they're selling you what you want, apparently. So shame on what you like. Yeah. And shame on what you're listening to because they exist for a reason. but now I'm the old guy saying that. So that's why, you know, there's hope, but at the same time, it's a, you know, we're losing that where, like I said,

this kind of authenticity where you're inspired by certain people and you take that with you. But now, you know, we're coming, we're not at that line or even the next few years, but I hear rappers all the time where they're like, there's just no respect where it's like, for someone to even say that who's big he smalls who's Tupacar or even, you know,

Rakim, you know what I mean? Like you're... Right. Like, even to not just pay respect. Like, we've just lost that. We've just lost that. Yeah, that's one thing I hate with the new generation is that it's so easy to go learn about everything.

And so many of them just don't have any interest. And it's like, if you love rap music... The foundations, yeah. Maybe Jay-Z's not going to become your favorite rapper. That's okay. But he came before you. And there's certainly a lot you can learn from his trajectory because there's a lot you can learn from anyone.

And then there's mistakes that you won't have to repeat, etc. I wish that the younger, and I'm always surprised when I have a younger guest on who clearly has done the work to actually learn about a lot of the greats that came before him. And a lot of times that makes me feel like, okay, you're going to win. Yeah. Or I'm going to pay more attention to you because I feel like you're legit, you know. Yeah. Having that kind of mindset, not wanting to make the mistake.

takes yourself and wanting to learn from others. I think it's a huge sign of success. I think sometimes you just get caught up. Even now, like, why would you pay respect to one of the greatest rappers in the world over here? But if he's not relevant today, you know what I mean? Or whatever. Now he just lives in Queens, you know, still,

and he's just being living. Right. You don't have to... You're better than him because you got more money than him. You're out here. Or you're out here, or you got two million people on Instagram and he doesn't. So that's

that just says who you think you are But we live in a I mean that don't mean Weird world we live in When you are Driving around by yourself What do you most likely To be listening to these days?

If I'm just driving around Mostly it's just still Reggae music My playlist just makes me feel good I try to keep up with Like you know Real Root stuff of Jamaica roots.

The California reggae scene is, again, I'm the old guy. You know what I mean? I respect a lot of the people that are doing it, but I'm just a roots guy. You know what I mean? So it's hard to, there's still new roots guys coming up. You're like, okay, I can get with this. But there's certain scenes that I, you know,

I don't vibe with. But I'll never get all the reggae music. It just depends on what mood I'm in. If I'm going to go run or something, you know. I'm still a big deaf tones fan, still a big rage fan, you know. Nice. Yeah.

For show. Yeah, man, thanks a time for coming on the show. It was super fascinating to learn about you. And I hope a lot of other people get the same effect. I know we're going to have a lot of rap fans that maybe are not like hardcore POD fans, but are like, oh, fuck. I was listening to them when I was eight, nine, ten years old. And hopefully some of them will sign up for this history lesson.

For sure, man. It's important shit. we all help teach each other for sure well I appreciate you man thanks brother thanks again

thanks man no jumper coolest podcast world check us on YouTube sound cloud iTunes all that shit Patreon and only fans

etc at nojumper dot com if you want to support like comment subscribe it did the order wrong on that but fuck it

appreciate y'all