No Jumper - The Token Interview: Signing to a Major, Being White, Technical Rapping & More

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

Token joins Adam to talk about his new album 'Pink Is Better’, the evolution of his career, maturing and growing up in the public eye, and being in a place where he doesn't have anything to prove anymore! He just wants to tell his story. https://www.instagram.com/tokenhiphop/ ----- NO JUMPER PATREON http://www.patreon.com/nojumper CHECK OUT OUR NEW SPOTIFY PLAYLIST https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5te... FOLLOW US ON SNAPCHAT FOR THE LATEST NEWS & UPDATES https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... CHECK OUT OUR ONLINE STORE!!! http://www.nojumper.com/ SUBSCRIBE for new interviews (and more) weekly: http://bit.ly/nastymondayz  Follow us on SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/4ENxb4B... iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/n... Follow us on Social Media: https://www.snapchat.com/discover/No_... http://www.twitter.com/nojumper http://www.instagram.com/nojumper https://www.facebook.com/NOJUMPEROFFI... http://www.reddit.com/r/nojumper JOIN THE DISCORD: https://discord.gg/Q3XPfBm Follow Adam22: https://www.tiktok.com/@adam22 http://www.twitter.com/adam22 http://www.instagram.com/adam22 adam22hoe on Snapchat SHOW LESS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

No Jumper. Coolest podcast on the world. And today I'm in here with a guy from my neck of the woods, Token is on the show. How you doing? So where exactly are you from? Massachusetts. Yeah, but where? I'm originally from Salem, but I spent, like, most of my time, like, forming your marblehead.

He used to live in Salem. For real? And I went to his old apartment in Salem because he... You kind of have a witch thing to you? No, he's a New Hampshire guy, too. Not in a bad way. Damn, Salem. Salem's a hell of a place.

Yeah, I spent, it was like, like, most of my phone, like I went to school in this small town next to a Marblehead, but I was originally from Salem, and then I just moved in with my mom in Marblehead. You just moved in with your mom? No, no, no, no, like, when I was young. Okay. Yeah, so I spent, like, I'm Rizzy from Salem,

but, like, most of my friends from that chapter of my life are from Marblehead. Interesting. And you still live out there? Yeah, I'm about to move here, but I live in Mass. Really? And you're not in the same town. But you stayed out there for the whole duration of your career? Yeah, I was just like when everything was happening, I was just like a teenager still.

And like I just didn't feel, you know, I could have moved here. But I just wasn't ready. Oh, yeah. It was like everything was just, you know, I wasn't ready. We would have been selling you parkets and introducing you to prostitutes, all kinds of fucked up shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I never, I didn't, wasn't ready for that. Wow.

But I'm about to move here like within a, like, I'm looking for places like this trip. You don't think it's going to eat you alive out here? No. Maybe back then it would have. I've spent a lot of time out here, but I just feel more like I'm just ready for this shit more. Like I was just young and like everything, like meeting people and like being around shit was just like intimidating to me. I was just like nervous and I was just, I just felt very like, I guess lucky to be in the situation I was. But I never felt like I was on like.

I was thinking too much I was on like the same I felt like people were like on top of me when I would meet like famous people are going to meetings and shit and now I just feel like I've grown into the spot on man and like with this new chapter

and everything this new album it's like I don't know it just feels like it's time and I don't feel like out of my element right so yeah let's talk a little bit about those early days in terms of like your time spent as like a real

rap fan and honing your craft before anybody started paying attention to you. Like, what was your early hip-hop introduction that made you want to do this? I mean, we're really, sorry, from two, wait from the... No, that's good. What, I mean, what really started was just, like, when I was young, like, really young, like, six, seven, eight,

I was just, like, a heavy kid. Like, I just felt a lot of shit, and I just, like, I was just, I don't have the worst life. or whatever, but I was just, the beginning of my life just like was not very happy. And I just, and writing just started making me feel better. I was just like found it early. I just had like, like, basically like a diary. I started just like writing when I was six.

And it just, I was getting in trouble a lot and shit and it just like made me get in trouble less and maybe like not be as sad. And then, and ever since I was young, my older sister, who was like five and a half years older than me. All she listened to his hip-hop. So she put me on stupid young to like my favorites back then were like Puck M and Luda. That was like my favorite when I was mad young. And then eventually it just found form in rap because I liked rap and I started recording when I was like 10. And then all my songs were like sad songs so no one really cared. So then it was like a conscious decision like oh let me prove how people just want to see this little white kid that knows how rap so let me just do that and then like one thing led to another let to another led to another and I just

built a fan base like off of that was like one piece of it and now it's like now it's like now it's like you know I feel like I'm I feel like I'm more tapped into like that six year old now who's just like talking about his feelings with this new album more than just like the rap shit like proving myself I feel like I already did that that's interesting because you coming from the position of like a poet or writer originally is something that's probably pretty foreign, like compared to the average rapper that I talk to these days, where it's like, normally they're like very outgoing public personalities or whatever, where they're like known around their friends or whatever, and it just kind of becomes clear that like, oh, he's the rapper out of the group.

Like it starts with them being like the cool dude who should therefore rap. But it's interesting that you're coming from that. I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of people who don't like get the credit as like a, like, a, like, like being poetic, but there's so many people that, like, they might have not been, like, me and, like, I'm consciously writing down, but, like, people are, like, future and, like, BK. the ruler, like, I don't know, a lot of these people that, like, I really look up to, like, their writing and I don't know. I just feel like I'm more, like, I talk, I'm, like, I talk about

it more, I guess. Yeah, you got to, like, be a little bit more analytical about the whole process. I just am a, I'm just a heavy person, bro. I just, like, I feel shit. Like, I don't know, when you might get pinched and I'm gonna feel like a punch. Like, that's just how I am in life. Like, even like, like, when I was a kid, that's when I started writing. Like, just this small amount of shit that I was through, it just affected me a lot.

And I'm lucky about it because, like, it brought me to music, but that's just how, like, I operate. So how did you go about developing the fan base, though? Because I've just been hearing about you for years and years, slowly started to get a little bit more familiar. but was it like doing stuff locally or was it internet stuff originally at first it was locally at first i was like doing like cyphers and boston and shit but that didn't really like people didn't hear my name tough to emerge from that yeah that's that world hasn't exactly produced a ton of stars

over the years um yeah but it was good experience wise like going and just like prove myself from like local legends like like just dudes that just like the oh geez i'm just trying to like if i I spit a freestyle that they might like, that would mean a lot to me. But no, it was really like, it was really as simple as like, when I was 14, I was like releasing music when I was 10 to 14 and no one cared. The only people who knew like were my school

and they were just like clown on me because I'm just like talking about being like sad and stuff. And then I was just like, let me just show that I can rap so people take me serious. And then 14, 15, I ended up like when I was like 13 or 12 or something, I lost like a ton of weight. And that kind of showed me if you work hard towards something, like maybe it'll happen. Because I never really want to be, I wasn't like, I want to be a rapper. I just wanted to feel better for real.

But I don't know, I started trying to prove people I could rap. One thing led to another. And then I'm here. And then over like the last, like, especially with this album, but like I started really developing fans who loved me when I just started being like honest again. And now it's like, now it just feels good that I don't have the weight of like I have to prove shit anymore. I just feel like now it's just about, now I'm really being introduced to the world with like this deal and like this next level of music and shit. And I'm just happy that

I finally feel like me again. I don't feel like I have to like prove shit. Shit just isn't cool to me unless it's like true anymore. Back then, I had like a better, I was okay with like lying, not lying, but like talking about rapping. Like I don't fuck with rapping about rapping anymore. Like I just want to tell my story. That's a disease that you kind of have to get past at a certain point, right? Like you rap, you rap about rapping before you have anything else to rap about more often than not. Yeah, not everybody, but I did because I just had to get people's attention.

But my fans, like, most of them know, but whether they know or not, like, um, they, they know or not, like, um, They're not fans of me because I can put together words. They're fans of me because of my perspective and the way, like, I'm a writer. And now, like, my, like, musical skills, I think are, like, catching up to everything. But, you know, people are going to figure it out later, but they're not, you know, the ability to, like, catch people's attention with, like, what you might have heard me for the first time for is not why I'm here. Like, there's a lot of people do that,

and they're not as like, they don't have a fan's like me. They don't sell tickets like me. They don't sell like me. But you think it's like the merger of the two? Because I feel like there are a lot of rappers these days. I know you have a relationship with Hobson. He's somebody that stands out to me

who does this weird merger of being a super technical rapper with also being like weirdly open and just sort of exposing things about himself and his music that take the fans by surprise. The average rapper doesn't necessarily do that these days and I feel like there's a certain audience to whom that's very very attractive to um yeah I mean maybe I'm like more I don't know like this new album is like I don't even know people like I don't it's not like technically like I don't know it's not that shit I'm like you know I

came up in that that world a little bit and like yeah like hop like took me on like some of my first touring shit, but shit's, like, definitely, like, changing for me. Like, shit's, like, it's just begun to evolve in, like, different, different groups. Like, I've definitely lost fans, like, with this new shit and gained a lot of new ones, and I don't know.

I just feel, like, confident that, like, what's meant to be is going to be, like... Because when I listen to the new album, as opposed to some of the older stuff, it feels like you're maybe, like, gaining the confidence to slow shit down. And it still feels like you're constantly sort of cycling,

between different flows from like super lyrical complicated style flows all the way to like you sort of simplifying it like is that a conscious process of like okay i want to slow down a little bit because you know that that is the whole thing about rapping really fast is that like it's hard to tell you're saying it's easy to sound like you're a good rapper if you're rapping fast and in comparison if you're going to be fucking paul wall you better to be saying some real ass shit and you better be saying that like you mean it if you're rapping slow you know Yeah, it wasn't conscious, bro. I just grew up.

Like, I was a teen doing that shit. Like, I was just, like, fresh at high school. Like, just feeling, just wanting to make this my career. So anything that was working, I was like, oh, like, I really don't want, like, mom to worry anymore. I got to, like, make this shit happen. And now I'm at a stage where it's not conscious. It's just over the last two years, for real about, like, you know, that's, like, the time I was working.

on the album. It's not like, no, that flow is too fast. It's just like, it's just natural. It's just natural. Like, I don't know. And shit just isn't, I just, like I said before, it's truth is what, I know it sounds like cliche, but like I just want to tell people like what's really going on. And sometimes maybe like I'll hear a flow and I don't know.

I don't think about it like this, this, I used to do that. I used to be like this group of people were like this. I used to think too much. You know, you can only get so far, think it too much. You can tell the dude to like, this song is made from the brain. No good songs are made from the brain. That's how you feel? Yeah.

Good music is made from the heart, made from how you feel. So, so, and I'm, I'm late. My true self was early when I was like 10, 11, 12, 13, but I went through a little detour of like getting my name out there. doing shit that okay that's gonna go viral there that's gonna go people are not gonna like that here but this line is kind of corny but it'll be a good talking point and it'll go crazy how old are you right now though 20 i just turned 23 isn't that such a fucking weird feeling that there's stuff that you did when you were like 13 that the world still remembers yeah well when i was like some percentage of your fan base so

remembers yeah especially when i was like 17 and 18 okay that that was the part they actually remember yeah yeah that all that shit is gone people don't but um but yeah but yeah i just for real, like grew up in front of people. Like I'm ever since I was like, um, ever since I was like 17. And I wasn't, I was mature in some ways,

but I wasn't, I wasn't like the most mature. And ever since I was 17, I was used to there being more, more comments about me than I could even read. So, so I think it's going to take time for me to even like, understand what that,

you know, because I, because I look back to some of the old shit and I genuinely like, thought I was, being authentic, like, but sometimes I listen to songs, like my sad songs where I'm like screaming in them. And I listen, I'm like, bro, like when I'm sad, I don't even scream. I feel like defeated when I'm sad. When I'm sad, I go home, I don't talk to anybody. Like, I don't, you know, when shit's going on. So, so I realized now, like, that was, that was a character being

played. I didn't, I didn't even know, like, you know, at this point, this is the first time in my career, not my life, but like my career, where like I hear my music and I'm like, that's me. And it even feels like different doing like interviews and shit in general. Like I know I just said this, but I know like this is going to be the first time my friends see hear the music and see the interviews and they're like, oh, that's my friend. Because before it was like, who's this kid who's like rapping about being better than rappers? I know this kid. He doesn't care about that.

And I never did. I don't look at this shit like a competition. I respect that for sure. Do you feel like, like, how did you actually go about learning to be so good at a young age, though? Like, was it a very, very concerted effort to, like, study the art, or was it something that you just gradually got better and better at? I think it was, I think it was, I think it was gradual. I don't know, like, probably the music I was listening to maybe, but I always, like, was into, like, words. But I work really hard, you know, like, I really care about this. music, and it's not like lyric, like it's not being able to rap, but music has always been my life since I was six.

Like it's so deep intertwining me. So I just, and I work really hard. So like when I decided as a 14 year old, I needed to prove that I can rap, I worked really hard. I recorded songs every day. So I, like, since I was 14, I'm 23 now. It's been a decade of recording songs. every day. So I just got naturally better, I guess. Right. And I mean, it's got to be kind of weird still staying out on the East Coast and just having this level of success and everything.

Because out here, if you moved around here, it's like your level of success would generally kind of like blend in with a lot of other people. But being out there, it's like, you know, being somewhere where there are, like being from the East Coast, there's very few popular rappers from New England. Very few people who made it out of that environment. I mean, it must just really stand out. Yeah, it stands out, but I stay away from the shit. Like, I don't really like to be around, like, people. Because it's easy to feel like the man where I'm from because there's no one, there's no one really doing it. So, but I live in, like, a neighborhood that, like, no one knows about.

But, but, yeah, I just, I stayed there. It definitely wasn't because I felt like the man there. Like, I don't fuck with that energy. Like, I left high school when I was becoming. I'm in the man just because it was like one day I was cool one day I wasn't cool and the next day I was um I just saw that I don't like that energy so but now but now I just it was for it wasn't like I need to stay out here it's just that I just didn't feel like ready to like be so far away from everything I was I was like it was like intimidating to me back then now it's just not yeah when I think

about it like leaving the house and like moving in New York when I was like 20 it's just like fuck like I should have been more nervous about that than I was yeah maybe I'm just a nervous fucking person I don't know what it is but I just I just know like at that age I was just like I looked at everything like it was bigger than me right you know how so how much does your financial status mean to you because I feel like when I'm listening to you I notice that you kind of come back to that a lot either whether like you're kind of amazed by the fact that you've been able to do so well for yourself or you know you might want to remind other people like hey i'm doing well for myself yeah i mean i'm just blessed to to um to have the fans i do that actually like i sell more tickets than i should

be able to you know i i you know i have fans that really like buy and stream and stuff and i have a whole you know this is my first major label uh album or whatever but like everything else is still mind. Like, I'm just very lucky to have fans that support me in that way, so, and I don't come from that. Like, my whole beginning was my parents fighting over money. Like, that was, like, the beginning of shit. And I've always fucked with money. Like, like, me and my sister have taken the opposite approach because, like, no, this isn't, like, a negative thing, but, like, you know, growing up in a family that, like, there were a lot of arguments about money. It's just interesting how that affects the kids.

I think about that all the time Because she scared of money Yeah I like you know I was young like Feeling needing money So I was doing shit that like I was getting a lot of trouble Just being like 12 Feeling like I had to rob

And feeling like I just like needed money for some reason And I'm fucking 12 And I don't know I would have gone like if it wasn't for music It sounds cliche but like That's really why my parents are so supportive because like, shit, if it wasn't for music, where I'd be doing some other shit.

Yeah, definitely. And when I think about my childhood, it's like, we fought because of the fact that we didn't have money. Like, that was the number one source of conflict is like just not have enough money for the things that we wanted or, you know, having to deal with bills and stuff.

I mean, that was clearly the main focal point of any kind of stress in the household. And when I think about it, I'm like, I wonder what the fuck my kids are going to fucking beef with me. over because it's just going to be way different. Yeah. Or they might obsess over it or they might hate it. They might like have some resentment

towards it. Like when I started when I started again some shit and I was just around a lot like I felt like no one in my family recognized me and like I remember my sister told me like when she seen me on tour in the way I was like

acting. Me and my sister have like good relationship now but she was like who the fuck is this kid? You were feeling yourself too much? I was like, I don't know. Like, they both say that. Yeah, I was just like, it was just a lot for me, bro. Like, it's funny because like I'm not the most famous person, but for the level I am, like, I've just lived a lot in a short amount of time. And, you know, like coming from the cloth of like, you know, Hop took me on tour, but I'm not like hop in the sense of like, I'm not, um, I'm not so, like, I don't, he's like, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

like he's not really like a rap I don't know if I just say that but like he doesn't live the rapper shit you know like me um I you know I'm young I just like I've been through stages of like really wanting to have fun like really wanted to like match

the highs of my career with my personal life so I've been through just like fucking around with different shit and like making mistakes and learning and you know my sister and shit they've seen me in different stages and and I've been like like I just remember coming home from tour at times seeing my mom and feeling like she

doesn't even like recognize me but but now it's not like that now I feel like I've caught up with it it's it's weird when people come to see you on tour or whatever because that's literally an environment that has been created just to sort of embrace your fans so your attitude while you're in that has to be kind of different because you have so much attention coming your way whether it's from other artists or people backstage, etc. It's like I've been in that situation where there's somebody I know from high school or somebody I consider my real friend from back in the day

and they're around me like when we have the store on Melrose and it's like I'm talking to them and I'm being cool. But then meanwhile, I've got a different person asking for a selfie every five seconds. And it's like it's really, really hard to act humble and act like, you know, just a regular person to somebody when you have fans or whatever, just throwing all this attention at you.

It's like, and then I, I've been looking at the person that I went to high school with thinking like I hope they know enough to understand that I'm not being big headed right now but I'm actually just dealing with the amount of shit that's coming into yeah you're speaking I feel it and it's hard for people to understand that until they've kind of been there or been around that enough yeah yeah and I was young so you know it it was I didn't handle everything the most mature way and I've always struggled with with this shit like the highs of the highs of the career, whether it be on tour, just move, not even necessarily tour, just like moving around. You know, I've, some of my lowest lows, like, happened right after my highest highs. I don't know if I'm just like that. Like, there's just been moments that, like, will be, like, the most amazing moment of my life, and now I'll just go to my hotel room and, like, cry. And I don't even, like, know why. It's just, like, I'm coming down from something. It's like, and I just be so sad. for some reason. So I've been through, I didn't know how to handle that for a while.

So I wanted to stay high, even if I wasn't surrounded by high shit. So that's when you get into other shit. That's when you start, you know, knowing that I'm so here. And then I know when I get back to my room. And if I'm alone in that room, I'm going to cry. I'm not, you know what I'm But like I'm gonna feel low. Like I'm gonna just like think about shit and so I need someone in that room with me. You know what I'm saying? Or I need to do something. Yeah.

No, definitely. You sound like you've had some substance issues over the years. Nothing like crazy, but but it's just, it's just been a ride because like, um, it's just been a ride because like I was like, I liked the idea of like getting fucked up when I was like 10, 11, 12, 13. I was, like, drinking when I was, like, literally, like, I started that shit, when I was 10, 11, 12, 13. And then when I was 14 is when I started focusing more on music,

and then I was like, and then I, like, I cared about working hard and shit. So I was like, I don't want to do anything. Like, nothing can distract me from the shit. So I was sober, 100% sober until I was, like, 20, or, like, around that age when she was, like, moving and stuff. Like, so, no, nothing crazy, but I've learned, and it's really what this album was about. The album was just about, like, living in extremes and, like, trying to find the balance. That's what, like, pink is.

But, you know, I'm a very extreme person. And, you know, I've always been that way. And, like, it's the same thing that have brought me here. Like, I'm extreme with working hard and the music and same, you know, all that shit. But when I like something, it can be dangerous. And I grew up in a family of like similar shit. And so I can, I can just like live in extremes. And it can be scary.

But luckily, like, over this last two years was like a story of extremes. But that thing you're describing of like, you know, being on a high, you're around all these people who are sort of like boosting your self-esteem and stuff. and then all of a sudden you're by yourself in the hotel room and you're just bummed and you don't really understand why that just that sounds to me like the circumstance that ends up with a lot of people starting to rely on drugs because they just don't like going through the ups and downs they want to like always be able to balance it out so it's like you know you get home at the end of the night and you're still like hyped up like you're taking zanax to get down and like you feel like shit in the morning you're taking adderol or god knows what to to get hyped up for the day at hand but but But yeah. Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to, it's hard to know what you're talking.

Like, I'm sure you've been through it. It's just hard to explain that if you haven't been through that high. Not to say, like, the high I've been through it has been, you know, I wasn't, I can't even imagine what people like juice and what people like that happen so quickly. And you're on this, like, like, I can't even imagine, bro. I couldn't have handled that. Like, it's wild. So. There's been times where I was around him where I was just looking at it, like, how the, like, how the, like, you.

fuck is this actually your life like and how are you 20 how are you 19 and this is what your day-to-day existence is like how like if i was 19 and i had all this shit thrown upon me like what are the odds that i would have been able to hold it together i mean yeah it's not something that the average person is equipped for by any means yeah and it's like i used to think that um you can outsmart things you know i used to be like i was too smart to be like addicted to something i'm too smart. I'm waste too, like my sister's too smart to, you know, and then you realize it's not about smarts. It's about feelings. It's about same thing with the music. Like, it's, it's, you know, I might, I might be smart or I feel I'm smart, but like when you feel that high and then

you're just like stuck afterward, like you don't know, you don't know what that is until you live it. Mm, 100%. Um, so on this, uh, album, I noticed that you, you've kind of gone, have you, like, you have a bunch of, like, features and stuff? Like, is that, is that something that you look at as, like, kind of the main thing that you can do to draw attention to particular songs, or where does that motivation come from? I just, like, really wanted to work with artists that, like, I'm actually a fan of, like, the biggest thing with this project, like, I know it's, like, my first time on a major, but it, to me, it wasn't, like, it's not, the, the biggest thing to me was, like, people listening to it really get to know me you know what I'm saying like it's not really about anything else like that was the biggest thing just because I've changed so much and I know that like millions of people have seen a younger version of me so deciding the features it was just very

it was like I only want to have people I'm fans of like I don't because in the past when I was younger like I don't know I would have done a feature I didn't do many features but like I would have done features if the fans wanted it now I don't really do shit for the fans. No disrespect, but like, I don't feel like if you're a fan, you should want the artist to do shit for you. If you're a fan of an artist, you want them to make their art,

like how they wanna make it. Like, you ever just like watch some shit and you're like, oh, there was a plan going into this. Like, some viral video is like, oh, there was a plan. Like, they thought about this. I don't fuck with that shit. Like, I don't, I want, I'll listen to artists who I just feel like make the shit they like.

And that, That's what I'm really on for the first time with this album. I don't know, feature-wise, like, I'm just blessed up those people. Like, really, I just feel like I'm blessed that those people gave me a shot. And it's just a statement of, like, it is a statement because, like, a lot of those features, like, they're not going to do a feature for many people. And I think they got to see the type of person I am. Like, if they just saw, like, my old shit on the internet, they might have not done it.

But I think once you, like, me, me or whatever, like, hear the song or here, they'll know, like this kid is like some different you know in the podcasting world i've heard it referred to as like audience capture in the sense of like you have a podcast or like a news show or whatever and you start to slowly realize like i've seen it happen with a bunch of different uh podcasters over the course of the pandemic where they start to realize there's a big fucking appetite for their audience to hear stuff that basically like undermines vaccines or covid or whatever like regardless of your opinion on that whatever they start to realize that that's what their fucking audience wants to hear.

All of a sudden, they're doing 20 episodes in a row. They're like, the vaccine is bullshit, yada yada. It's just them falling in line with what's going to get them the most views in the short term. And I've heard you talk about that, too, where it's like if you just did a lot of the lyrical, miracle shit and just went as hard as you could lyrically, then that might please your fans in the short term. And also probably, A, make you feel like you're not really doing what you're supposed to be doing as an artist and B, probably close the door on new people finding out about you. It's just, I just got up, and it's not like, if I was really truly that person who, like, looks at rap like a competition, I would be happy doing that. I just want to stay, like, what is actually, like, there's no, there's no, like, I want more acceptance or there's none of that. Like, sometimes that's what people think, like, he want, it's not that.

It's just, like, I feel uncomfortable doing that shit now. Like, I just, it's just not the person I am. I feel that, though. There's a lot of, you can tell when there's people who, like, do shit for the fans, do shit for the clicks. And like, I know what it's like to do the viral shit. I know what it feels like. And the fans are too smart. Like, they see you doing a feature where they can just tell

that you're trying to, you know, do something to make it happen. The fans just know. You read the comments. You're like, God damn. Yeah. Like, if I wanted, like, some crazy streaming song, I would have got like this crazy streaming act. And the label could have probably made that happen.

For this one, none of the features are really, like, they're, I feel they're tasteful. They're all of them are people who wouldn't, who don't do shit just to do it, like, for the most part, I think. Like, you know. For sure. I could basically tell, like, because my time spent working with Atlantic, though, they had multiple artists signed to the same division that are on your project.

Oh, yeah. So I can kind of, like, guess who your connect was for some of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they definitely helped out, you know, make the connection on some of them. But, okay, what was that decision like to sign Atlantic, though? What was like you, did you feel like you're kind of taking your career as far as you were going to take it as an independent artist? No, no, no. It was, it was, you know, I've been getting, like, courted since day one, you know, and I'm just, I'm just, shit, I'm just lucky to have money not be the decider for me because I've been making money.

Like, money is, um, I'm just lucky, I guess. I got, you know, so it wasn't my decision. And with Atlantic, it was really, I felt like our goals lined up. And just a major in general was just like, I don't want to look back. I know the potential of me as an artist. Like, I know where I come from, but I know, like, the person I am and the people around me, like, once you get to know me, you know, you know the type of person I am. You know the type of potential.

Have you seen me in a studio and the shit I do? Like, you, you know, and I just didn't want to, I could. have done the independent shit and I could have made the money I could have done the touring and my tour where it got bigger whatever but to me it's like I didn't want to look back and say damn I never even tried to do the major shit so this is like my first run at it and I don't even like really having to like they've been great so far but I don't really having to pay I'm like what like five days in after like you know the major so you know I just I just feel like I have the potential to be be a big artist you know and if I didn't feel like that I

probably would have stayed independent because I can make a lot of money independently, but it's not about that for me. Like, I just don't want to. I just, that's just like where, it just felt more natural to me. It's kind of crazy that you managed to not sign all throughout the SoundCloud rapper takeover days because it's like that, that around the time the juice was coming out and pump was coming out and all this shit. That's when I really started to see artists get crazy amounts of money that it would be hard for most rappers to turn down. even if they wanted to be independent around that time. Yeah, I also have like a really fire manager who like has put some perspective in me that like knew some of my worth before I knew any of my worth because like when labels wanted to like have pieces of like my old catalog, I wasn't making crazy money at that time.

So I was like, they want to offer me what? Let's do it. And he's like, you're going to see money. And now I'm like, oh my God, thank God I didn't do that shit because it's like, Now, you know, this out, like, everything else, like Atlantic does not touch, like, every other song I've done. So those, those things come in, you know, touring is just me. Like, I'm just like, I'm lucky to have the fans and I'm lucky to have, have given that perspective

from him. I was, I was listening to an interview with this rapper Troy Ave the other day who I just interviewed from New York. And he was talking about how, like, super early in his career, T.I. tried to sign him. But the signing bonus was like, you know, competitive. He already was selling records in the streets probably before streaming, whatever.

He probably was bringing in a decent amount of money. The amount of money he was going to get for the signing bonus from TI just wasn't that significant to him. And he didn't, so he didn't sign. Now he looks back at it and he can see how maybe he should have taken the short-term compromise to be affiliated with an artist that big. But at the same time, I'm looking at it and thinking like, bro, how many artists have we seen signed to big rappers?

And nothing happened. I mean, it's never a sure thing. Yeah, it's definitely not a sure thing. But sometimes it happens. And yeah, like, I could have got more money somewhere else. But it just wasn't about that. And that's just like, I don't know, I'm just lucky. It's crazy.

Definitely. Was it weird for you in particular back in the day to have, you're so young. And then you have all like these YouTubers and shit where just all of a sudden making videos about you. And it seemed like they took a real intro. in you and sort of wanting to narrate all these different things that are happening in your career. Was that a strange thing to go through as well? Because you're kind of an early era rapper in that regard. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't that weird. Like, I always felt, this is going to sound narcissistic, I guess,

but I always, like, I've always been a leader and I've always knew I was different. That's where, like, the name token comes from. Like, I've just always felt like I didn't fit in. Then at first, like the beginning of my life, it was like a really negative thing, like, feeling like I didn't fit in. I'm mad different. But then it turned into a good thing because it brought me to music. So when people talk about me, I never really get surprised because I'm like, I just feel like people should, I guess. Or people. So not necessarily should, but like it just doesn't shock me.

Even like locally, like when I hear shit about myself, I never get like, or like lies about me and a girl or like whatever. when I hear shit I'm just like yeah it makes sense like I don't know so it never that shit never like no I never really like bother me what would bother me if it was like not true I guess but but even that it's like

I understand like people are going to run with you know how much untrue shit I see by myself I mean I feel like you know there's a lot of people who think I'm something I'm not and it's all good because it just over time and I think with my music as it continues to progress and shit people will have a better understanding of like who I am and what I actually come from and what I've actually been through. But it's got to be kind of tempted because part of you probably wants to like be part of that

conversation and want to just respond to people who have something to say about you and shit, right? But I feel like as an artist that's kind of frowned upon. I'm just like inspired by, you know, I just think, call me like, I don't know, old fashioned whatever, but I just think music, give music and time and it'll do that difference. Like, I'm really, like, the most inspired by, like, Tyler and Mac and Cardi and, like, Yay, and these people who just, like, continue to change and, like, you think you have your mind made up about them. Like, when, when Ye was doing some shit, you thought, people thought they had their mind made up. When Tyler represented something damn near the opposite of what he does, or, like, Mac was a frat rapper, people call him that shit, you thought you had your mind made up.

But shit is not cool until it's cool. And that's just like, I don't know, that's just like the philosophy I go through that. As long as I'm honest and I'm honest with myself and I don't like try to rewrite history or recreate history and I just continue to be myself, I think it'll all fall into place. It's crazy because those are all artists who basically have the license to do whatever the fuck they want and their fans are going to follow them. Their fans have followed them between genres over and over and over and still somehow they've managed to like, survive, like, for some reason, I'm referencing another episode of Academicist's podcast here, but I was watching one than he did with FeddyWop, and FeddyWap was talking about how he had the Drake feature for one of his records, and he didn't put it on his album.

I've seen that. And he basically, like, as I'm watching him talking about, I'm realizing, like, he thought he was Drake. Like, he thought he was a fucking Kendrick Lamar. He thought he was a superstar who could really just do whatever the fuck he wanted, and it would work out fine. And then over the years, he's been humbled and sort of realized. I was like, oh, actually, I should have probably put the Drake feature on my album.

I probably should have just been a bit more irrational about it. But it's kind of, if you think back to that time period in Faywap's career, it's kind of understandable that he thought that he could do no wrong. Yeah, yeah, he was the one. And I just think, you know, not everybody is like constantly evolving just as a person. Like some people are like, they are the person they are. But you can tell, like, the artist I mentioned, like, Carty, like, Cardi. dude if cardi like released like i'm like a huge cardi fan but if cardi like had dropped some of the like

uh the leaks you know that are just like given hits like he could have done that his album like people would have like loved that album like more from the jump i mean i love that album but but he you know i don't know him but like it just seems like he went with his heart like he did what felt natural to him like i'm sure the label was like pissed at mac at one point when he comes out with him with a drugged out album after he was like a pretty in like the college you know like you know sometimes you got to take risk like i'm i'm i'm really inspired by that especially yay and shit like i'm really inspired by that and and i might take a risk like i'm like with this album like i already

know there's people who expect it something different but i'm seeing shit on the other side and that just feels so much it feels so much better you know when it's just some authentic shit when it's some it's the truth and one person said something about it because like I've gone viral I've gone I've done some crazy shit like numbers wise some shit that didn't feel like so authentic to me and when it goes crazy it doesn't really like feel as good as you think it for me like shit feels good when I know it's like actually me yeah whole lot of red is probably like the album that has made me feel old more than any other album you know because I really don't I just don't really get what the

people are listening to it for it's so funny because someone just said that but um but listen i said this to this dude but power to you to admit it because it's nothing worse than like someone who doesn't get it but acts like i i understand what he's trying to do here and like oh the distortion is actually kind of cool like you know i'm not mad at the kids at all for liking it you know it's just like over the years i've always like looked at rap even the shit that i did didn't like and was still like oh okay like I see what's going on I find this interesting I'm really fascinated by this the whole art thing really made me feel like more of an old man because it was like oh I don't like this and it kind of pisses me off oh wow which is a different place

to be in as a rap commentator I listened like right when the album came out I was with my girl it was Christmas was it Christmas I don't even remember I think it was basically Christmas I was I was with my girl and we were just I think I was drinking I don't know but I was just like this is the best I've ever heard of my life. I was like, and I had it solely on repeat. That shit, like, man. I've seen it people. I've seen little house phone jumping out his fucking skin when it came on.

And I was like, bro, I've been going on underground rap shows with you for almost like 10 years. I haven't seen you really react to much shit as much as you are into this. I straight up, like, when I was younger, I like knew what other, I could feel like other perspectives more. Like, I felt like what type of people would like my moral. like rapping track and shit and at this point i don't even know what people like like i don't even like think about it and like when i heard whole lot of red i was like obviously this is mad good but mad people don't like it i don't know it's weird i don't know it's stages on i guess what do you think would happen if you made a project that was just completely out of left field like because we've

seen a bunch of hours do that you mentioned tyler x stands out to me as somebody who like had one rap style and then just like get signed and puts out a project and it's nothing like the shit that he got for. Is there like a little part of you that wants to do that? Do you feel like your style of progressing your music is sort of like incrementally changing things? I think like that's more realistic what you're saying, but like you never know like I'm working on just like different projects like different people's projects and just get inspired by different things and maybe all like overhear some shit that'll like completely change. I don't know. Some of my fans like my old fans look at this project like it's that and it's like bro you don't they just don't know music like

They just like know that world and just a small group of them. But but maybe one day, I don't know. Like, I wouldn't like plan it. I would like, I would have to like really feel that way, you know. Right. It was just kind of have to happen over time. Yeah. Is it weird because I feel like as a white rapper,

I've heard so many people act like, oh, it's so easy to blow up as a white rapper. And there are some examples of which I could point to somebody and say like, well, that guy kind of blew up and he's really, really nothing special. But for the most part, I feel like sometimes it's like there's a little bit of that, but then there's also like the standard is like higher. Like have you felt like in your career people were kind of looking at you differently because of that? Like you were supposed to be huge because of the fact you're white or like what is your thoughts

on your race and whatnot? It depends how you look at it. But there's definitely a privilege that comes with it. Like, you know, some people would say the opposite. I've seen comments like, oh, people don't even. even give him a chance because, but to be honest, like, you know, I look at, like, I got, like, a huge fan base in, like, Europe and different place around the world, and I, and seeing how many people I can, like, bring out there, I wonder, like, would these people like me if I

didn't look like them, you know, like, would I be as talked about if I didn't stand out just naturally, you know, and I just think, I think there's absolutely, absolutely truth to that. Like, it's weird how big I got in Europe. It's weird. And, you know, like, I just think it's important. I just think it comes with a responsibility to, like, be aware that this shit wasn't made for me. You know, like, you know, I've, like, said guest and then people get mad, but it's like, that's really how I feel. And I just think it just comes with a responsibility to know that, know the history, and just not try to be something I'm not.

You know, like, I think that's where maybe people. people like have gone wrong like they just try to be some they try to represent something that isn't actually them but um but yeah man i've i've like people don't act like that's a real thing but i absolutely think that's a real thing like i don't know how i don't know if i'd be where i am yeah you know actually i pretty much know i wouldn't be well it would be different at the very least it'd be different i'd probably like different people would listen to me and stuff but like for some things i don't think i don't think i would be but i mean it's It's got to go both ways because it's like, you know, I'm sure Poushyshe'sti has a lot of black fans.

If Poochishy was white, I bet a lot of those people would not be nearly as interested in him. Because, you know, they see something of themselves and him. They relate to him. It's like I notice it all the time, like my kid, my one-year-old, if there's a fucking baby or like a little kid on the TV, she's staring at it. She relates to it, you know? It's like people just relate. Like, there's a reason why. For sure.

If you ask, if you go to a Cardi B concert. there's going to be a shitload of women there. Yeah. Because they see themselves in there. Of course they would. Like, I mean, in a way, it's not surprising at all. Yeah. It's definitely true.

But then, but then you look at, like, some of these rap shows and it's just, like, a bunch of white kids. And it's just like, what did you see? Like, look at their Cardi concert. And how many, like, white kids are there? And it's like, are they trying to see themselves in? I don't know. It just depends. But I definitely think that there's, like, I guess, like, some people are,

more like hesitant to but I also have to help myself like I also like I come from I don't I come from a different place like I came from more of like a YouTube shit when I was younger so I don't really know how to call it because like maybe it's that or maybe it's because I was rapping about out rapping people and that's not really tight you know um so who knows you know I don't really know no yeah definitely but I mean I've heard people try to use like Jack Harlow as a as an example to me of white privilege. And I'm like, bro, Jack Harlow is a cool-ass white boy.

Like, regardless of him being white, that is a cool, smooth-ass dude who makes really good music and is really good at rapping. I don't really, like, is his massive popularity maybe in part because of the fact that a 12-year-old white girl

is going to look at him like he's a sex symbol and maybe she wouldn't even if he was black, yes, for sure. But at the same time, I mean, he came correct. Like, he's got a lot of the parts in place. Yeah, I saw recently, like, explain me. They were like, who is token?

And they were like, like, picture like Jack Harlow, but way more sad and like not, not as popular high school. And I'm like, maybe. But yeah, I fuck with Jack. But yeah, what you said, I think, you know, I think it plays a role. And I think he knows that. I think he's, he's, he's like aware of that for sure. That is the weird thing about him is that he's like, seems smart enough and with it enough and conscious enough to get exactly that he's been helped by.

Yeah, he's just not. He just doesn't, I never met him, but he just doesn't seem like a goofy. He just doesn't seem like he's trying to get something off of, like, their culture. Like, he just doesn't seem like he's trying. He seems like he's being himself and he's not a goofball. Definitely. Totally different style of question. But have you been in a relationship for the past few years or how long have you been in a relationship?

What's that been like throughout your career? because it seems like sometimes I'm listening to it and I'm like, oh, he's in love and sometimes I'll listen to music and I'm like, oh, he's like a sex addicts. Like he's talking about having threesomes and shit left and right. Right now I'm in a relationship, yeah. It's like my second relationship. Like the first relationship, I've been through like a bunch of just like mistakes and like, you know, not to like just down that person, but, you know, like a lot of weird shit. And, you know, that breakup was like a big turning point in me because it was the first time where, you know, like, this person,

that person was like part of my life. And I'm like kind of like a lover in the sense of like I need something. Like I need, I like when someone makes me feel human. Not many things like make me feel human and like girls can do that for me. So that like breakup, that is what like sparked this album. That's what like really sparked the the red side and the white side. The red side being like this like one and a half fun and shit, fast shit. And the white side being like the white flag side, like just like feeling like wanting to give up and shit.

But yeah, I've been in this relationship. You know, she was just really there for me like for the breakup when I wasn't ready. And she had been turning me down for years and shit. so she's not no goofy shit like I was lit and she was turning me down um so so she just you know we were just friends and she was there for me and then when I was when I was ready like it just began and she's like the first one that um you know I've been with girls at like um I was about to say maybe you deal with this but I know you've been with your girl for a while five years um okay but uh that being said we fuck girls together all the time so it's a little different nice um

but I just been for only fans not for fun I just don't. Sometimes it's fun. I just, I don't know, I've been with girls that, like, have been really into,

like, my career and shit, like, really into, like, the money or whatever. And then I've been with girls who would be,

like, scared of it, like, too much for them. Like, my ex, like, didn't, like,

she would tell me, she wish token didn't exist. She wish she didn't have to share me with people. You know, she wish I didn't have to focus so much on something. And this girl

is, like, the only girl that, like she's not scared of it and she's not obsessed with it. She's just like chilling, you know, which is like, I'm young, but like I've been with a good amount of girls and like I've never experienced that neutrality. If that's the word as much as I am now. Yeah, an ideal relationship is going to make you feel more normal in that environment, I think. Yeah, yeah.

She just makes me feel like understood and like, you know, It's hard for people around me to look at me like normal. And it's not only just because of like success or money or whatever, just like the person I am. It's like I'm always like some shit is going on in my life. And some shit is, I'm talking about some shit. I'm going in about some shit. So it's like I know what I'm going into when I step in tokens crib type shit.

And I just feel that energy. Like sometimes I feel like, ah, like I fuck with you. But you don't look at me like I'm you. Yeah. look at me like some different so this girl like you know we just i just think like she looks at me like a human and she helps me feel human that's like the biggest thing like i can just talk to her and feel like i am a human you know it's nice to feel normal like my girl has been like through the pandemic and everything my girl has just not seen me on some famous shit in a long

last time and we went out as i feel we went out the other day and there was hell of people asked to take photos and shit and I was just like realizing like she hasn't seen this in years like she hasn't really she hears me say like oh I went out in public the other day and this happened but she doesn't get to see it face to face and I would say it's more of an annoyance to her at this point it doesn't just because it's like she's so used to like having to rely on me to be doing dad's stuff and shit so it's like for me to be doing some other shit in front of her it's like it definitely doesn't feel the same yeah but it might be a little reminded like he used that guy um for me. I told her that. I'm like, hey, next time you're mad at me, just remember. Just remember.

Ten little kids want to take a photo with me. That's pretty cool, right? Yeah. Yeah, my girl, you know, it was, it's, it began through, like, the pandemic and shit. So, she's only seen local shit where it's like we go to her, and I don't even like to go out that much. So she's only seen, like, she knows, like, we're from, like, the same town. So, like, she, she knows how people, like, you know, like, you know, like, look at me and then if we go out like she'll see that um but she's never seen me like on tour or like when it's like because that's when it's the craziest that's when it's just like

hundreds of kids doing meet and greets and you don't have anything normal like you don't get to go home to your house and feel like a normal person after it's like yeah you go back to the hotel or whatever but for the most part it's just you're in this weird vortex of ego yes that you need to learn to control vortex of ego you know Yeah. And the longer you're on the road, the harder it is. You know, if you're gone for two months, it's like, then you get really detached from who you were

and what you're like as a normal person sitting on the fucking couch, you know? Yeah, it's hard. I mean, even being out here, like, this trip, it just began, but it's been, like, it's been a trip. It's like some shit has gone down. That's just, like, I don't know, just like go, like, just dream type shit. And even, like, now, it's like, it's hard for me to focus. it's just hard for me to focus on something else.

Like, I'm on like a crazy, I'm on like a high, I guess right now, but I don't feel like, I feel healthy and shit, but it's just, but I can see like it's hard to just have a conversation about, my roommate is like, oh, she didn't do that. It's like, I can't have that conversation right now. I'm thinking about this crazy, like no, no disrespect. Like, it's just like, I can't. My brain doesn't fit it.

But the main thing that I, I always drew it back to is like when you're at home, you're seeing the same shit every day. Like you're noticing, you know, you see the same chick at the coffee shop every day and you're like, you know, saying hi. And, you know, you get to notice the little differences in that experience. Whereas when you're on the road, you're eating dinner at a different spot every night. You're in a different venue every day. You're looking at a different row full of fans in the front every day. The meet and greet is different.

Or if you do that every day, it's like everything is just new. And you don't, your brain gets used to not having to like work to find. like new things to pay attention to whereas like if you're if you're you know and that's why it can be hard to relate to people because if you're talking to your girl and she goes to the same job every day you know it's just she gets like to care about the details like when you're on the road you don't get to care about the details because the details are constantly changing yeah and it's and she'll know like she'll notice the smaller thing she'll notice you haven't you haven't you haven't text me in three days and I'm like I fuck really like I don't even realize but that I don't think that um means like

less love. It's just like, it's so, and I'm like really trying to like make dreams come true. And like this part of this part of my life right now, this time is just crazy. Like, you know, as, as this music, this new music is coming out, people are like starting to like see who I really am. It's just been crazy. I've just gotten like opportunities I've always dreamed about, like just in this short trip. and it's like, I'm sorry if, like, I can't focus on something different. Yeah. When you're on the road and they think that you're going to remember something. They're like, well, you said this two days ago.

It's like, you think I remember what the fuck I said two days ago? Yeah, thank you for saying that. I'm in a vortex right now. You got to understand. Yeah, I don't remember shit. Like, I don't remember, like, where people work, like where I don't remember shit. But I don't, I say this, and I'm pretty sure I'm right that it doesn't have to do would love like it's just it's impossible for me to retain all of it you know and that can start like

arguments and and uh in the past like you know i was with a girl who who you know took things personally took lyrics personally like i'm a very like uh blunt writer and shit just isn't i just don't like it if it's not really like true and she she just really got hurt by my songs like you know uh this one, I shouldn't say this one, but she won't get hurt unless, like, I mean, she might and not voice it. I just need to show her the thing. Like, there was one song off this album that I said some shit, and I didn't show her it.

So, like, there's all these, like, comments and stuff, and she's like, you should have shown me this song because you said this. And now it's just me, not being a man, me running from it, because I knew it was going to hurt her rather than being like, look, I said this. This is what I was going through at that point. you know like being straight about it because that's a whole

that's a whole part of my life I'm like very I'm very like honest in the lyrics so it's tough for some people around me but I just got to be transparent around it there's some people who like been understood it like you know my dad he's a writer too

so like and he just knows and my mom just my family doesn't have any other choice because like they knew what my life would be without music they knew what I was destined to be like just for the shit I was getting a choice

trouble for so they're just they're just happy i'm focused on something different you got just constantly tell you girl like i'm a rapper i got a rap i got to rap like i got to do these things like otherwise i won't be able to be a rapper my girl told me that in the early part of our relationship she used to always repeat to herself he's just trying to make the fans laugh he's just trying to make the fans laugh yeah you have a you probably have a harder because like i'm actually like i'm like i'm honest Like I'm you know some of this shit is like that I say is like not saying you're not honest But like she hears these lyrics and then she's like oh damn like it's not about impressing fans like I have like I say wax shit about myself a lot I say some fuck shit that I do and it's not to be like

Yeah guys I'm out to fuck shit like that's not tight It's different because if you're little baby and you're just saying some fly shit if you're saying I fuck seven girls last night It's like that sounds like flexing like any could understand that that might be a lie. So it's like if his girl got mad about that, he could say, baby, I was a rapper. I'm just saying rapper shit. You know, me, I'm a podcaster, but it's like,

I'm kind of supposed to be funny. So it's like, I can always get away with it being a joke. You're just airing your ass out for no reason other than just like, this feels right for me to be transparent when I'm making music, you know? And it's not, like, most of the time, it's not brag. It's not meant to be a brag, especially like the sad songs where it's like, clear it's not meant to be a brag. But it just makes me feel like,

I guess like more just it's off my chest. I feel less like heavy. Definitely. What is your current thought process on J. Cole? Because I saw that you did that one song for him a couple years ago. Yeah. And it felt like you, I was like, damn, he's like putting on like a lyrical clinic for J. Cole right here. What the hell?

No. That was just like in between albums. Okay. You were just having fun. I was just having fun and just trying to like, I just knew what I was doing. like I didn't have like a single to release or some shit and I knew like there was going to be a certain group that like loves this and a certain group that is just like going to get annoyed by this. I was just trying to literally stir shit up but I am a big whole fan and and yeah I've had like I got Dreamville acts on my last one last project Jid is on this one but yeah it was never meant to like do that. Okay. Yeah. You have like you know obviously they're competent artists and stuff but.

But when I see you doing features with Tech9 and shit a couple of years ago, do you feel like that's the kind of thing you need to avoid at this point? Because that's going to just put you in more of a, like, lyrical rapper category that maybe you kind of are trying to get past that tagline being associated with you? I just feel like I should make songs with people who I like, you know? And you don't like Tech Nine? And that's not what I'm saying. But.

Just kidding. And we've had Tech9 on before, so he's a friend of the show. Yeah. I love Tech. But it's not really about avoiding. It's really about just doing shit that, like, I don't really. I don't. I used to, like, do some shit that I didn't really like doing.

Like, I don't know. I did, like, TikTok shit that, like, I didn't like doing because I... We all do. Yeah. Now it's, like, I just feel, like, the most important thing for me is just to, like, be myself and be authentic. And, like, some people would tell me, yeah, like, I could. Like, if I wanted to, like, go crazy.

go more crazy on YouTube and shit. It's like right now, like my YouTube numbers are like down, but my streaming is up. And that's just like, it's just, it makes so much sense. It's just like, because a lot of the people who like me on YouTube, like, they like me for that shit. And I'm totally cool with that. But now, like, I make, like, good songs now. Not to, not to, like, talk shit to fans that like my own music, but like, you know, it's a different level now and you can see it.

Yeah, I mean, like, there's certain artists who really, like, are YouTube rappers, where it's like you need the visual in order to like get the impact of the music. You see that a bunch. And then yeah, there's definitely a lot of artists who go crazy on streaming. And then their YouTube wouldn't really make you think that they're like a huge artist. Yeah. It's just, I mean, maybe maybe some of those people like that's just who they are. And they just like should keep doing that.

And that's where they're supposed to exist. I just know like it's not where I'm supposed to exist. It's probably like maybe like when Mac was like kept doing college shows. And he's like, bro, like I've played the guitar too. Like I'm trying to like make real music. I don't want to do these college shows anymore. And maybe, you know, maybe he made less money to stop. You know, it's like the same shit.

That's how I look at it. How much do you care about money though at this point in your career? Like do you have enough that it doesn't really change your decisions that much? It really doesn't. Like it really, it doesn't. and I'm lucky to say that, I guess, but I just, and maybe that'll change. Like, I don't know, this is how I'm feeling today, and I tend to change a lot. But, um, but right now I just, I just have, I feel like I'm made enough and I've lived in, like,

a big enough house and I've, like, had enough nice shit to know that, like, it just doesn't really make me, don't get me wrong, like, parts of it that I don't have to worry about that shit, like, it makes me happy. It makes me happy that I can eat whatever the fuck I want. I can buy, you know, clothes and shit and shit that makes me feel comfortable. But, and that's nice, but it just doesn't, like, it just doesn't last that long. Like, the happiness I'm getting from just the short amount of days of this album being out. And finally, I feel like people are, like, seeing me better for who I am.

That shit. It sounds cliche. It probably sounds like I'm lying, but I'm not. It makes me happier. But the people who accuse you of just doing stuff. for money a lot of times are deeply confused about what makes you money those people are fucking

idiots I'll have people on my ass about like you just uploaded this clip for money and it's like they're just poor you're talking about like fifty dollars worth of YouTube ads what I get what people say like

they're like the stupidest shit like you're doing this for the money you're doing this for the label it's like bro the label doesn't want this. The label doesn't want me to do some, like, no disrespect to Atlantic, but like, I don't think they really care about artsy shit. You know, I'm pretty arts. Like, if you listen to my album, it's not that I'm the most, but, you know, like, I care more about that. And they're like, oh, he's rapping about money because the label took, people are just idiots, bro. They got

no idea. They think, like, some aluminum shit. They think some fucking, they think I'm posting my, people just, you can tell people are losers. Like, I post my girl and people like, oh, you said you wouldn't post your girl's making you post like my girl doesn't give a fuck if I post her like yeah like they're just like they're she's pretty she's pretty so people like be careful it's like damn bro you must have never had a pretty girl in your life because they're not all trying to get you like just because he's pretty it doesn't mean she's like a gold digger it's like you expect like underground rap fans to not treat their fair rapper like a fucking Kardashian but then they basically end up doing like exactly they do they probably they probably do it worse

because they become so like, they have this idea in their head that's so incorrect. And it's like, yeah, it's so crazy. Like if I wanted to make more, it's like, you signed for the money. I'd be richer if I didn't sign. I didn't sign for the money. Like if I had released like all my shit independently, I would have more money. Like I didn't, you know? But people are just like, people say the craziest shit, bro.

But it's just like there's certain just like groups of weirdos. like you saying like be careful for that girl just as saying i have never had a bad bitch yeah because that pretty girl's intimidating me be careful she's scary like a lot of times it's like if i read something particularly stupid i just try to remind myself like they're probably still in high school they're probably like 11 and they're commenting this so you know i can imagine should put too much thought into it or or maybe that's for you but my stupidest comments are from like the old motherfuckers who think like they want rap brought back and they they're like you were supposed to bring hip hop back and they're just white and they're just like 50 and it's like bro like they just

like are so not not tapped in and it's like those are like and they're still stuck they still listen just the same and I was supposed to bring back hip hop that's the power of music though too is they're like people will find a fucking artist they like and expect that artist to fulfill their wildest dreams of what music is supposed to be like yeah it's um and and i can see how it's possible to get caught up in it and like listen to these people like but but you just got to understand that like most people like i just i used to take it serious but now i just look at it like a joke because it's just like you got to understand bro most people are stupid like most like i have gotten and that's not meant to call my fan stupid or anything but like

There's a lot of just, they don't get it. They just don't, you know, if you're from the East Coast or the West Coast, like, I spend, like, time in New York, and I'm just from Boston. I'm from, like, you know, like a liberal, you know, I'm just, like, from that shit. When you travel and you see all these places in, like, Middle America or, like, these places in, you know, random places in, like, Canada, like, small, like, random shit or, like, Europe. You see how big, and it's, like, me traveling. me traveling like middle america it wasn't a shock that like trump is the president most people like

went like when that happened people like how the fuck it's like bro i've seen i've been in middle america like that's a lot of people bro they still think like that like so you know i'm just aware that like people are stupid yeah and it just like that you can't really take anyone's opinion too seriously, you know, like, and certain really big artists give off that vibe and their fans kind of like act accordingly. Like, if, if Cardi does something, you're never going to find out what he thinks about your opinion, you know? Like, he's just never going to respond to anyone. He's had huge controversies that he didn't respond to. And you can say that by anyone. I mean, Kendrick Gilmar is the most extreme example of it, you know? He dips off, doesn't put out an album for four years.

People talk about him every day on Twitter. And it's like he's apparently never been tempted to jump in there and correct anybody or anything and you got to kind of respect that even though most of us are mere mortals who don't really get that privilege yeah yeah i don't really correct people but i troll them and because i just at this point i used to i think like maybe bother me more but i've also like have received like hate comments or whatever since i was like 14 like or 13 so it's like at some point and then your life just keeps getting better and then you still see more hate comments and then you just realize

that it doesn't actually mean anything and you also realize that the hate just speaks so much louder than the love like I was just talking about it that it's just like when you love something and you see a comment that someone also loves it you don't necessarily like it you're like oh yeah he loves it too but when you see a hate comment like you're

you did this and you agree with that that's what you like so sometimes those comments just go to the top and they you know it just looks like it's all hate but if you scroll it down it's like 90% love it's just people people just attach themselves to the hate I guess more yeah I mean if you put out a video and it got a million views and it had 10,000 dislikes that might like really stand out to you was like holy shit that's a lot of fucking dislikes maybe they really didn't like this one but at the same time I mean you got 990 000 people who watched it and apparently liked it enough to not dislike it or whatever.

It's just like it's kind of hard to put that into perspective because it's like if you had 100 people outside your house screaming at you, it would feel like the biggest deal in the world. Like you got to call the cops. You got to go get a gun. You got to do something about it. But if you have 100 people screaming at you on Twitter, you got to just learn to be like, oh, all right.

Whatever. Yeah, it's just not that deep. And like people, people, people, I like never got like hate on the street or anything like that. And most people who have been like absolutely destroyed on Twitter or whatever would say the same thing that they never really have encountered that in real life. It's just, it's an online thing. It is, yeah.

It doesn't, it definitely doesn't happen in real life. But I just think the better approach, like for me, sometimes I just be trolling because I know people are going to like, like attach themselves to like some, some narrative, like some illuminati, some like, I just troll them sometimes. Respect. You got to troll them. Tell the people why they should fuck with this new project. Why they should fuck with it.

I just think it's good music. It's really honest. I think it's, you know, it's just like a story about these last two years of my life. And I think it's a unique story. And I think it's some fire songs in there. So, yeah, I think it's different from what some people would expect. So I think they should give it a shot. For sure.

And I have to send a shot. Shout out to Blacky Speaks because I DM'd him and I said, what do you want me to ask token? Because I know you're a big fan. What did he say? He gave me a bunch of really good questions that we kind of ended up like covering him without having to try to cover him. But like he just like hit me back like two minutes later with like seven really, really well thoughtful, thought out questions. Because I thought of him because I saw Sway play the clip from him in your old interview. And I was just like, oh.

That's my guy. Yeah. When I was talking about YouTube and making videos about you, I was kind of talking. talking about him. Yeah, shout out, shout out to Blackie Speaks. He's killing it. That's my guy. That's been a while seeing him blow up over the years, but... Yeah, have you, you been seeing it for a while? Just watching his videos, but like, sometimes there's certain people where you look at their subscriber count, you've been watching for years, and you're like, oh, shit, that got got, like, a million fucking subscribers all of a sudden, that's sick. And he, like, does his

diligence. Like, he, he, um, he kept certain narratives alive, I guess, and shit. Like, he, uh, he's funny. Um, but yeah, he's always been supportive. For sure. Token, appreciate you coming through, man. Appreciate you having it. Everybody go check out his project. It's out now. It's fire.

Covering new ground. Let's go. Token, No Jumper, coolest podcast in the world. Check us on YouTube, SoundCloud, iTunes, Patreon, all that shit. Like, comment, subscribe. Nojumber.com. If you want to support, appreciate y'all.