No Jumper - Wendy Day Full Interview

Starting point is 00:00:00 No Jumper, coolest podcast of the world. Today we've got an unexpected piece of hip hop history, the one and only Wendy Day. How are you doing? I'm good. I've never been called a piece before. I felt kind of awkward about how I phrased that. I'm not going to lie, but I'm just going to thug it out. Fuck it.

Starting point is 00:00:16 Yeah, fuck it. How are you? I'm good. Today's like my first day, not sick in like almost a week. So I feel... I know. I heard you had an earache. I saw an Instagram that you were kind of fucked up and you're getting better, right?

Starting point is 00:00:27 Yeah, and I never get sick. but I got this ear infection and it like actually started to kind of hurt my neck and it started to hurt when I chewed and it's just, you know, you can get sick in the littlest way and it makes it so it's like impossible for you to enjoy anything. Yeah. You know, COVID earache, I'll take the earache. That's a very, very good point. So actually, that's a good question before we get into this. How is your COVID experience? Do you live a quarantine style, lifestyle much of the time? Um, first of all, I have to preface that by saying I'm really sad that people are sick and people are dying and yada, yada, yada. But I am loving this.

Starting point is 00:01:07 I have been staying in the house now for eight weeks. I go out like to the grocery store. I went to the bank yesterday. Um, I went to Chick-fil-A drive-through a couple days ago. So I'm not, I'm not anchored to my house. but dude I have been so productive in these past two months that it's just it's just crazy you know it's just I'm loving it I'm learning to speak Spanish um getting stuff done around the house much better background um you're just flicking around in between images there uh I've seen people

Starting point is 00:01:43 doing this on Zoom I haven't actually figured out how to do it myself yet nice it's in the settings it's it's the bomb oh cool no yeah I'm 100% in agreement though obviously like the 80,000 dead is a very, very big deal and I have a lot of compassion for that. Obviously, the people who have lost their jobs and everything same. But I do think that there's a lot of people and it sounds like you and I are in the same category where I am a bit of an introvert. And I'm kind of constantly putting myself in extrovert situations because those are the situations that are the most beneficial to me in my career and what I'm trying to do and everything.

Starting point is 00:02:17 The truth is is that one thing I've realized, I get a lot of anxiety from like going to a music festival and I've cut back on that so much and I don't know that that's necessarily ultimately like good for me as a human being but it's certainly a bit less stress I've stopped worrying about it I am absolutely an introvert and when I'm in I'm even even more than being an introvert I'm also an empath right so I go into a room and I'm sucking up everybody's energy not not consciously but it's draining So after an event, I like have to be by myself or I'm just like depressed beyond words. It's like it's like a Coke crash where you're just super, not that I do Coke, but where you're super

Starting point is 00:03:05 depressed and you're just like, oh my God, this is so heavy and so draining. So whenever I'm in a situation where I'm around a lot of people, I need Wendy time anyway. So what this has done for me is it's allowed me to get up. all the stuff of my to-do list around the house. It's allowed me to spend time playing with my dog. Like stuff that I don't normally get to do, you know? Normally you have to very much, like if I were to have had a conversation with you a few months ago before this all started, I would have said that one of the key parts of my life

Starting point is 00:03:43 that was kind of stressful was the fact that I was constantly knowing that there was stuff going around, knowing that there's a trippy red show tonight and I could go to the show. and hang out and meet some people. Can't miss that either. You know, get some stuff done. That's the problem. Can't miss it. It's very strange to now live in a world where there are absolutely zero trippy red shows that I need to be thinking about. Well, now I'm finding all the shit online.

Starting point is 00:04:06 Like, oh, my God, I missed a webinar earlier today. Right. And then I missed a Zoom call with some A&Rs that were just chatting. And then I missed, you know, drinks with some friends who are online. So I feel like I'm still missing shit. It's just like I feel like now. I have an excuse. Right.

Starting point is 00:04:24 For me also, like in terms of digging in and exploring things in depth, prior, I felt like all of my research time online, my time that I would spend digging into things was pretty much based around what I was going to be doing content-wise. The other day I spent like four hours watching all these Brooklyn drill rappers videos, watching a bunch of videos sort of explaining the politics and the war between different factions. and stuff. I've had so many friends. Oh, I would love that. Oh, it's good. I could say in some links. I would love that. It's insane. By the end of it, you'll be scared for the youth in New York.

Starting point is 00:05:02 But, you know, I've had so many friends who have tried to like really get me into all these different artists and stuff. And it is, you know, I was moving so fast that I wasn't really able to slow down and just absorb 30 different rappers from one city. So that's been nice. And then I got to, I got to really catch up on like pop culture shit because when I'm ripping him running, I don't really get a chance to watch Netflix. So like I've watched Ozark and I'm caught up and I've watched Homeland and I'm caught up. So within my circle of friends, I'm no longer the weirdo that doesn't watch TV because I'm caught up. So I can have those non-music industry conversations and then I can have the music industry conversations like about, you know,

Starting point is 00:05:47 Andre Harel passing and, you know, just different, just different stuff that matters to me instead of stuff that I think I have to be doing for my career. 100%. Okay, just to throw something out there into the ether in terms of what direction this conversation could go. Oh, baby, I'll catch it. I feel like you're somebody who, as the years have gone by in terms of your role and hip hop and stuff, that you kind of made a conscious decision that while a lot of people were

Starting point is 00:06:16 chasing just, you know, money and success that you sort of decided to base all of your time and your, all of your energy around the idea of like helping artists specifically. Talk to me about was there, was there ever a shift where you were sort of like, you know what, I don't care about the money as much as I care about having a positive impact in these people's lives? It started that way. So there was a shift in my personal life because I grew up poor. I grew up in very humble beginnings in Philadelphia. Our family lived in a wealthy neighborhood, but we weren't wealthy by any means.

Starting point is 00:06:54 So I was always the outcast. I was always that kid that didn't have, and I hated that. You know, I lived in an area where kids got brand new cars when they turned 16, and, you know, I got a Timex watch. And not to put down a Timex watch, but I wanted what my friends had. Right.

Starting point is 00:07:13 And I grew up with, out. So I knew that when I got into a position in my life, I thought that, you know, he who has the most toys when they die wins. And I started collecting and, and I played to win baby. So I, you know, I started out in sales. I got into the liquor industry, made a shit ton of money. And I realized that money didn't make me happy. And it attracted people to me that, that were douchebags. And I didn't want to be surrounded by douchebags. I wanted to be surrounded by people

Starting point is 00:07:51 that I admired and liked, you know? And when I was in Montreal working in the liquor industry, I came back to the U.S. I was there for three and a half years. I came back to the U.S. And I had some money. And I, that's when my life, like, switched.

Starting point is 00:08:07 That's when I was like, you know what? This chasing money thing doesn't really work for me. Not that it's bad. And if other people want to do it, you know, go for it. It just wasn't working for me. So I got into the music industry in 1992, and I came into it as a fan of rap. I didn't get into music because that's what I wanted to do with my life. I came into music because I felt an obligation to give back to the artists that had

Starting point is 00:08:38 brought me so much happiness over the years. So I come into it from a little bit different point of you. And then I started working in music. It took me six years to start making any money. It took me 10 years to be able to support myself. And then it took me, I'm 28 years in right now. It's like the last maybe seven or eight years where I've really been okay financially, but I make more money in real estate as an investor than I do in the music industry. And the great thing about that is that I don't ever have to take on a client in order to feed myself. So if somebody comes to me and they've got a lot of money and they say, gee, Wendy, I want to hire you to help me build my career, I can look at the whole package. I can listen to the music and I can say, you know what,

Starting point is 00:09:30 I don't think I can add value so I'm going to pass. And that's such a beautiful thing because there's so many of my peers where they're like, fuck, I got to pay my mortgage or I got to pay my rent. I've got to work with this guy and I don't think I can add value to him, but fuck it. I'm just going to take the money and run. And that's never been me. And I'm really thankful that that's never been me. So what was your early hip-hop education that made you such a fan of it? And once you got into it, how did you start working with artists?

Starting point is 00:10:02 I love that you asked that. Nobody ever asks me that. And thank you. Really? Okay. I started, you know, I came up through rock and roll, like listening to Led Zeppelin, ACDC. you know, hard rock in the 80s. I'm old enough to be your mom, I think.

Starting point is 00:10:17 I'm a lot older than you. How old are you? 57 or 58, 57. My mom is 70, so she would probably appreciate it hearing that. Woo-hoo! So I came up listening to rock, and then in 1980, I went to a psychedelic first concert, and the opening act was Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. And that's what did it for me.

Starting point is 00:10:42 Like the energy and the passion in the music just was insane to me. And I'm like, I love this shit. And I was living in Philadelphia. The music that I liked was coming out in New York. So I found a record store in Philadelphia where I could go. Records, I'm that old, right? I found a record store where I could go and get cassettes of what was going on the weekend before in New York. So I was buying the tapes of the club.

Starting point is 00:11:12 music, the rap club music that was happening in New York until it started coming into Philly into the clubs and then I could just go out to the clubs and hear it. Okay. So you're super, okay, so Grandmaster Flash. We're talking about you getting interested in hip hop at about the earliest stage that you could possibly get. 1980. Right. And so in terms of your peers, at that point in your life, I don't even know how surrounded you were by like other people your age and stuff. I was in art school. Okay. But so was that regarded as like extremely strange for you to? to be so interested in, you know, black music specifically? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:11:47 And also going on at that time, I moved to Montreal in the mid-80s. And especially in Montreal, there was this industrial music scene going on. So I started listening to Skinny Puppy and Ministry and like some really like hard, tight music. But then I also liked, you know, Public Enemy and X-Klan. So I had this Eric B. M. Raq Kim. So I had this weird dichotomy going on in my head. But the great thing is in Montreal, there was a radio station on McGill's. McGill was a university.

Starting point is 00:12:22 It still is. And on their campus, they had a radio station called CKUT. And the radio station would play like ministry and then public enemy. So it was like the perfect Wendy playlist at all times. So I wasn't weird. in my world in in Montreal, but when I came back to New York, I was very weird.

Starting point is 00:12:46 I was like the white suburban chick that was into hood culture. And I remember like, you know, I talk about this because, you know, my high school experience, I guess I went into seventh grade, started high school when I was like 13. And a lot of times I'll bring up,

Starting point is 00:13:04 you know, and that was 97, I'll bring up to people that at that time, it was very much like you had to choose a side, you were either into rock or you were into rap and it was like unthinkable for you to be into both because I think. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. And like culturally they were viewed so differently. And I try to explain that to people sometimes is that at that time I viewed rap as very, very materialistic. And that was like very. It was so counter to what was going on in like grunge and stuff that I kind of understand how on a cultural level people had a really hard time accepting that you could be

Starting point is 00:13:36 into Nirvana and Jay-Z because Jay-Z is, you know, glorified. jewelry and money and whatnot and Nirvana seemed like they're spitting in the face of that. It's very strange to think of that now because when we think about somebody who's going to art school now, it would be very, very strange if they didn't have at least some knowledge of hip hop or if they didn't have some rappers that they gravitated towards. Because even if you think Jay-Z or, you know, modern rap music is too materialistic or whatever, there's tons of different hip-hop out there that I'm sure will align itself. with what you're into from an aesthetic point of view. Right.

Starting point is 00:14:14 You've watched all that change. When we look back at history today, we always look at it through the lens of today. We don't look at it as what it was then. And when Jay-Z and Biggie and even the whole death row, you know, Dr. Dre, when that era was popping, we looked at it inside of hip-hop like, whoa, aren't these flossy motherfuckers? Like, what are these shiny suits and popping bottles? Who wraps about that shit? Like, it was more like Wu-Tang was really where the mindset was in New York. And then all of a sudden comes this guy, big Papa, on ships and yachts and, you know, private planes like, what the fuck?

Starting point is 00:14:59 Like, if you look at it in context of what was going on back then, he was so, like, left field. He was really breaking the mold. Right, because you hadn't had that. sort of like pimp, you know, drug dealer, flashy. Yeah, yeah, that was like a very new aesthetic. People forget that that was a huge part of like really what big was bringing to the table was that he sort of presented himself as this like almost mafia, mafioso-esque, you know, drug dealer, New York Dawn, you know, it was a very new character. Very new. And it wasn't, it wasn't immediately loved. It didn't take long to catch on.

Starting point is 00:15:39 But it was not immediately embraced. Like people weren't like, oh, yeah, this new thing is the shit. It was sort of like, man, that's so materialistic. What a sellout. Right. Like, yeah, but he can rap. Right. And back then that mattered too.

Starting point is 00:15:53 Like, if you were going to be a rapper, you had to really motherfucking rap. Like, you couldn't just be, you know, a great image. You really had to be able to rap. And God forbid, if anybody found out somebody wrote for you, it was like, you know, it was like, it was like a murder charge. Hey, let me throw this out there. Is there ever been times throughout your hip-hop fandom where something became really popular or something was starting to become the status quo and you were so not a fan of it on a personal level that it really kind of almost made you question if your hip-hop fandom was going to necessarily retain itself for the rest of your life?

Starting point is 00:16:29 Yes. When the Fresh Prince first came out, it was so commercial and so like, even though he can rap, it was so like ABC-ish that I remember being in my circle of friends and we're all in the industry going, what the fuck is this? You know, like we were all like pro-KRS-1 and then here comes this guy with these, you know, happy puppet-like raps. And it was like, huh? And he won a Grammy.

Starting point is 00:17:01 I think he's actually the first rap artist to win a Grammy. And I wrote an article in the Source magazine, which was like, back then the Source, really mattered, right? And I wrote an article about how fucked up it was that somebody as commercial as, you know, the Fresh Prince would win a Grammy, like, where was their taste, you know? And I think about it now, and it's not only embarrassing,

Starting point is 00:17:27 but it's like, wow, you know, is that really how we thought back then? But it was enough of how we thought back then that Dave Mays printed it in the source. It was like on the fifth page. It was like an important statement on underground hip hop rules and, you know what I mean? And materialism, bad, hip hop, good. And I look at it now and I laugh.

Starting point is 00:17:51 It never made me want to quit, though. There's never, like even the worst shit that I've gone through in the music industry, there's never been a time where I thought, gee, maybe I should hang this up. That's never happened. Right. But now we have such a filter installed in our brain that as soon as you start to communicate anything that's you know that's elitist it sort of triggers in your brain of like I don't want to be the guy who's shitting on somebody who happens to be you know displaying a somewhat more commercial or more

Starting point is 00:18:21 family friendly version of hip hop the same way that you know I very much have that trigger in my brain when if I'm looking at a young new artist and I think that they suck it's like very much like I want to figure out what the appeal is before I just dismiss it yeah right but I feel like at that time In particular, there's much more of a notion of this is what real hip hop is and anything that goes in the other direction is an affront. I think my peers still feel that way because a lot of people my age don't embrace the new hip hop or the new rap. And I love it. I love what folks are doing. And maybe it's because I've been listening to it for so long and I've seen it go through so many growths and changes.

Starting point is 00:19:05 like it kind of changes every few years, you know? So I never become super attached to it, but I've learned to really enjoy it. And of course, because I do it for a living, like it's my job, right? I don't, I don't tend to focus on what I like personally. Like, I know what I like and I know what I don't like. But I don't, because I don't like something,

Starting point is 00:19:32 I don't automatically say, oh, that's garbage. because I see that if it's got fans and there's people that like it, it's got some redeeming quality to somebody and who the fuck am I to say something's good or not? Right. And I totally get that because it's like if you were someone who very much grew up in the Wu-Tang era, it could be very hard for you to then, you know,

Starting point is 00:19:54 a couple years later be like, okay, now it's the bad boy era. And now very different things are important to us. Right. From myself, it's like I've always been so fascinated by the evolution and just by seeing what people within that culture gravitate towards that it's like even though you know because I could very much say that as like wutang grimy ass statin island imagery certainly appealed to me on a level that like then I see everybody starts talking about

Starting point is 00:20:19 their chains and the shiny suits and stuff and it's like I was obviously just not gravitating towards that in terms of a personal usage of those things but it's certainly you know nothing like that ever made me think fire right I never want to to dismiss it because I was like, oh, if this is where the culture is going, I'm going to stay interested in this regardless of if I myself am going to go buy a shiny suit. Right. Right. And exactly. Like I never had shiny suits. I never had a private jet. You know, I don't have a Rolex. I don't care about that shit. But you can't argue with the fact that Biggie's just fucking lyrical. And it's amazing to see like the culture as a whole grow and change. And, and it's amazing. And it's amazing to see like the culture as a whole grow and change. and benefits so many people, not just fans, but like people working behind the scenes. Like, you know, we employ people that are somewhat unemployable anywhere else,

Starting point is 00:21:15 you know, and that's amazing to me. Like, I love the fact that guys with tattoos all over their face that are never going to be able to get a job at Bank of America, you know, we have a place for them in our community. And I love that. Do you find yourself in any way invested or, looking forward to the sort of changes that slowly take place in hip hop in terms of like politics in terms of acceptance and understanding because it's a lot of times I'll go and look at

Starting point is 00:21:47 older rap content whether it's music videos from the 90s or even you know songs from popular rappers from five or 10 years ago and you know hip hop rarely discusses those changes in terms of like, you know, misogyny lessening in terms of, you know, a lot of things like that, hip hop rarely has that conversation, but you do still see the change steadily if you, if you pay attention to the art. Is that something that you're sort of rooting for and paying attention to? Well, the conversations do happen. They just happen behind the scenes where they should. Like I don't feel that anybody, like not you, not me, not anybody has the right to walk up to an artist and say, you're too misogynistic. You're too violent. Like, how am I going to tell somebody

Starting point is 00:22:34 what they think is wrong, you know? But what I will do is pull them to the side and have a private conversation with them and say, you know, here's something you said in your lyrics and here's why it bothers me. Not that you shouldn't say it. I just want you to understand it from my point of view. You can go ahead and say it all you want, but just understand that this is what you said and it bothers me. And I think that's a much more productive conversation to have with somebody than to say, you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that or you can't do this. Or, you know, it's bad when you know, like it's art. It's an art form. And you don't really want to stifle anybody as long as they're not directly hurting somebody else. Like if they want to hurt themselves, that's on them, right?

Starting point is 00:23:20 but hopefully they'll be intelligent enough to know where to draw the line. And if they're not, I think it's up to us in the industry to pull them aside and say, okay, okay, you're taking a little bit far now. And maybe that's the problem with the generation of rappers that are overdosing. Like maybe it's up to us, meaning my generation, to step in and say, hey, I understand that that feels good. I understand that you like that. but here's what could happen.

Starting point is 00:23:51 Here's what I've seen happen. Here's maybe where you should rethink it. And then let it be up to them as to whether they want to continue down that path of self-destruction or not. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point and a very different thing. Because, I mean, if you were to pull a rapper aside and say, hey, I think that this lyric right here, you know, think about how a 14-year-old boy is going to take this. Think about how somebody is maybe not going to be able to sort of parse the difference and know that you're referring to a specific woman.

Starting point is 00:24:19 and not women in general. I feel like a rapper, a lot of times might not have that criticism brought into their face until maybe at a later date when they start getting canceled on Twitter. And think about the influence that you have, you know, not just rappers, but like even you and I doing this. Like I'm sitting here taking vitamins, right?

Starting point is 00:24:40 But I'm very aware of the fact that I'm sitting here on video swallowing pills with a bottle of water, right? And like I had to consciously think, do I want to do this or not? And then I realized, you know what? I'm just going to live my life. So all that to say, everybody has an influence in other people. And if you're a rapper, and I learned this from Tupac. Like, Tupac was like, you know what, Wendy?

Starting point is 00:25:06 I've seen two-year-old sing along with my lyrics. And they don't know what they're saying. They don't know what it means. But they're rapping along with me word for word. And that's a really scary thought. because it's getting ingested into their brain and what's going to happen at a later date when that starts to come back out?

Starting point is 00:25:27 Like, what happens? Right. What happens once they learn what those lyrics mean and they already have it? But it's already ingrained. Right. Like I was singing along to the Pledge of Allegiance before I knew it any of those words meant.

Starting point is 00:25:38 Right. And it was already a part of me, you know? And then you find out later you start to really be able to think about what it actually means. But I mean, yeah, there's an indoctrination factor in hip-hop. that a lot of people sort of, it's a lot of people, a lot of artists might realize a little too late the weight of their words because they've already influenced a generation. And does that come with age or is that just something, like is that one of those wisdom things that age brings us or is it a tying thing? Like just you learn that after you go forward, you know, three years or five years into fame.

Starting point is 00:26:12 I think so because a lot of times I'll see rappers who, you know, sort of like they're, value add, their proposition is that they are going to talk about violence. They're going to talk about wanting to kill their ops. They're going to talk about doing all these drugs. They're basically existing in a state that they're not going to be able to exist in for very long because the truth is is that if you live that kind of lifestyle, you're going to end up dead or in jail relatively quickly. And there's a certain percentage of the audience gravitates towards those artists who are at that point where they're completely raw and they haven't been changed at all by the industry. And then I'll see that those rappers will start to, you know, go through the process of

Starting point is 00:26:54 becoming a bit more of a, you know, functioning human being who understands that there, you know, is a very good reason to not be glorifying certain things. And then the audience kind of betrays them over time. Right. And that's scary. It is kind of scary. You know, it's, it's very short lived. I've also met a lot of rappers that,

Starting point is 00:27:15 aren't about that life, but they take it on and act as if they are because they feel like it's the fastest way to get viewers, or it's the fastest way to fame. And it's not even about like making money or sharing your music. It's about people wanting to have a perception of fame. They wanna be famous.

Starting point is 00:27:40 Definitely. And they think that that will change their lives. And sometimes it does, but, but not necessarily for the better. And sometimes in terms of young people, it's like they want to, like the face tattoo thing, they're really trying to make it look like they've been through some shit. They're trying to make it look like they're grown.

Starting point is 00:27:59 Because when you're like 16, 17, there's really nothing you want more than to be a man. You really want to be the grown up version of yourself because there is that space in between you being a child and being a man and you're very much going through it in your teens, And it's a great point. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:16 And it's like a lot of times people are really in a rush to get to that point. And they'll, they find themselves doing all kinds of crazy shit in order to accomplish that goal. I was in a rush to grow up. Yeah. Same. Yeah. But the great thing about that too is that I went through all the bullshit.

Starting point is 00:28:34 Like when I was in high school, I tried every drug that there is. When I got out of high school, I no longer had a need to do that. I haven't tried a drug in, you know, 40 years, 50 years. And that's a great thing. 100%. I went through the bullshit early. Not to say that drugs are bad or good, but for me, they're not good. But that's the harshest one because it's like, yeah, you can have that

Starting point is 00:28:57 conversation with the rapper and say, hey, you said something misogynistic in the song. I don't like. That is what it is. And that I think is likely to work. The problem is that if you're a rapper who's been popping perks since they were 12 years old, you've done such significant damage to your brain already that the odds of you being able to realize the area of your ways and be able to live a happy life without ingesting drugs on a semi-regular basis, it's going to be much, much more difficult because you've really, you know, addiction is a beast. And a lot of times when I meet people who've been fucked up on drugs for 10 years, it's like, it's hard for me to imagine how I could explain to them what the other side is like.

Starting point is 00:29:35 At a certain point, they have to know and they have to have just sort of consciously made the decision that they're just not going to be able to do that. or just be willing to try something new. Right. That's a dramatic change. I think a lot of people need to go to rehab. Right. A lot of people need to go to rehab,

Starting point is 00:29:51 at least need to give it a few months, just to get that clean break, I think. Exactly. And I imagine that could be scary. I was on a webinar on Saturday with a guy named Randy Blythe, who's the head of a metal band called Lamb of God or Lamb's of God. I used to see them a bunch back in the day.

Starting point is 00:30:11 And he was talking about his sobriety and he was explaining that he was drunk for 22 years. And when he first said that it didn't phase me, but when I thought about it, like, after a few minutes, I'm like, wait a minute, 22 years. Like, he just woke up one day and said, you know what, this isn't working. He was on tour with Metallica in Australia. He's like, this isn't working for me. I just need to try something different. I'm depressed. My life sucks. I know I'll stop drinking.

Starting point is 00:30:45 And that was enough to like get him to that next level and it changed his life. And I think it's cool that he got to that level, but I can't imagine it taking like 22 years. Imagine what you've lost in a 22 year period of being an alcoholic. Right. And especially in a situation like that where you probably feel like your alcoholism is so normal. Like I've been around a lot of bands. on tour. Super.

Starting point is 00:31:12 It's like it's a very different thing because, you know, you might be on pills if you're like a young rapper, you might be fucking around with pills and stuff. But chances are that there's a lot of people in your life who are not doing that shit. The reality is, is that a lot of these people who are on tour and bands that they barely have anyone around them

Starting point is 00:31:29 who's not drinking heavily. Like that's so normalized, especially back in the 80s, 90s. Yeah. Yeah, good decision though, like trying sobriety on a fucking metallic. tour. I know, right? Okay, you threw out the Tupac name. How did you meet him and let's hear some good stories? Because anytime anybody can talk about Tupac is always gold. Yeah, it is. He was amazing,

Starting point is 00:31:52 right? So I didn't like him at first. I lived in New York. I lived in the city at this point in time and I was going to the clubs and at the clubs there were always two lines. There was the VIP line and then the regular line, which we called the dick line. And Pock was always rolling really deep, and he was always loud in the center of attention everywhere he went. And of course he was always in the BIP line because he was coming up at that point. He wasn't famous yet, but he was coming up

Starting point is 00:32:24 and the underground, we all knew who he was. And I would get out of the BIP line and go get in the back of the dick line because I just didn't want to be around that energy. Like whenever he was around, it was just negative to me. So I always avoided him like the plague. And then when he got into a situation in New York where he felt like the powers that be in the New York rap community, he felt like they had started a cabal. Is that how you pronounce it?

Starting point is 00:32:56 Cabal, C-A-B-A-L. They had started a cabal and they were out to get him. And he was very paranoid. And I saw that he felt like he was in. New York alone. And I felt bad for him, even though I didn't really appreciate who he was as a person or even really a rapper. I mean, I kind of liked his rap, but you know, whatever, right? And I decided to try to help him. So I reached out to a couple of my friends in the fruit of Islam, a guy named Brother Arthur. And I asked him if he could protect Pock, be the security around Pock until he was sentenced. And he was going to be sentenced in like a couple of days. And sentenced for what at this time? And also what year are we talking roughly?

Starting point is 00:33:42 It was actually rape. But he was sentenced to sexual misconduct, I think, was the actual term. That was the situation where basically like, I believe he had hooked up with a girl. And then a couple of his friends might have taken advantage of her. And it wasn't necessarily him, but he was basically roped into it. Yes. Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 00:34:03 Exactly. And it was actually Haitian Jack, who, who was the part of the crew around him, who was a relatively powerful street dude at the time in New York. And he was very nervous. He was, you know, he, after the quad situation, he was very nervous. And I kind of felt for him.

Starting point is 00:34:25 It's like if I were a New Yorker in L.A. And I felt like, you know, people were ganging up on me in L.A., I would want somebody to step in and try to help me. So that's what I decided to do. And I asked the guy, his security team, I asked them not to mention it to him because why, right? Well, of course they did. So when he got to Rikers, he was sentenced. When he got to Rikers, he wrote me a letter and he said, thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:34:55 And he said to me, you know, it's really nice to know that somebody would appreciate me for my music so much that they would look out. and like that wasn't it at all. Like I wasn't a fan trying to look out. Like I felt like he needed help. And, you know, so I wrote back to him. I'm like, you know, dude, it's not about your music. Like, it's not that you're whack or anything. But I didn't step in to help you because of your music.

Starting point is 00:35:21 I stepped in to help you because you were out here alone. And I run an organization called Rap Coalition. And I felt an obligation to help you, like to step in and and help protect you because you were out here alone. I would have wanted somebody to do that for me. And he wrote me back. And when the letter came, I'm like, oh, fuck, I don't know that I want to read this because I imagined it was going to be, fuck you.

Starting point is 00:35:46 You know what I mean? Like, my music's great. What are you talking about? I'm not loud. You know, I really thought he was going to go off on me. And he did not. It was such an amazingly thoughtful and intelligent letter. And I hadn't seen that side of him.

Starting point is 00:36:01 And I'm like, oh, shit. And because he came so different than I expected, he really caught my attention. And he blew my mind. So I sent him some books. I sent him, I sent him Machiavelli. I sent him just a bunch of different books. So you probably inadvertently named the album, huh? Yeah, maybe.

Starting point is 00:36:26 Somebody might have introduced him to it otherwise, but pretty likely, right? He would have found it because, like that was back then that was the mindset like back then everybody in our community was reading behold the pale white horse we were all reading the prince by macaveli so it's not like i had some profound unique intelligence and i was sharing it i was sharing him books that our world was into right it's interesting because like if you give a guy a book in their day-to-day life pretty high chance they're not reading it you give a guy a book in prison pretty pretty high chance that they're going to read it.

Starting point is 00:37:05 Digested it. And it's funny because whenever rappers are incarcerated, I always send books. I still do today. You know, I have an email list of, because you know what there's email in the feds, right? I have an email list of like 40 guys that actively corresponding with from the rap world, like either street dudes or rappers or used to be rappers or whatever. You know, like to see murder, people like that. but um so pock and i became pen pals like we wrote back and forth and he gave me some great advice about rap coalition some of which i followed some of which i didn't and i gave him you know what i thought was great advice about his career i didn't like that he signed a death row but i understood why he did he felt like they were the most powerful thing that wasn't new york and he'd be protected

Starting point is 00:37:55 and he was you know up to a point so i i you know i understood him I liked him at the time that he was killed. He was getting away from death row. I was putting together a business plan for euthanasia, which was the name of his label. And we were talking to other major labels at that time. So he was going to change. He was going to,

Starting point is 00:38:22 that was his plan was to leave death row and start a label called euthanasia? Yes. And what was the metaphor there? And in comparison to, you know, euthanasia, which is basically killing children. Right. And it's funny because the plan consisted of community centers and centers for women to bring their children to their job and put them in this place that would help take care of their kids

Starting point is 00:38:52 and get them to the next level as preschool, toddlers, children, whatever you want to call them, his plan consistent of all that. Like he was really community-minded and it was such a perfect fit because I was so community-minded. And I really love the fact that this is the direction that he was going. And it's such a blight on humanity

Starting point is 00:39:17 that we never really got to see what was next for him because what was coming was amazing. He felt like he had divided the East Coast and the West Coast. So he was bringing them back together. together. And he was already working on an album called One Nation. He had already gotten tracks done, you know, completed by East Coast rappers so that he could bring everybody back together and unify them. And that was going to be the first release on the new label. It was really

Starting point is 00:39:48 kind of exciting where he was going. He was all about the people. He was all about giving back. He was all about kindness. And the one thing that I especially, you asked for like, funny story, I went to visit him when he was at Danamora, and because he was famous, they sat us right by the guards in this room, right? There was one table that sort of sat above everybody, and they put us in the first seat. And, you know, I asked him at this point, he was fighting his case, and he felt like he was going to get out, and they were going to release him immediately because he was going to win the appeal. And I asked him, well, what about, you know, the time that you've already served? And he's like, he's like, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:40:34 I'm like, well, you're going to sue because you, you know, you were put in prison at the height of your fucking album. You didn't get to promote it the way you needed to. Like, you know, will there be a, are you going to sue? Like, will there be a case? And he's like, no, I think I'm going to ask the judge for a credit. And I just, I thought that was the funniest shit ever. I'm like, yeah, you're going to go in front of the judge and say, okay, I just did nine months that I shouldn't have done. So can I have a credit for that?

Starting point is 00:41:00 Because for sure, down the road at some point, some fucked up shit is going to happen. And I'm going to get sentenced. So can I take the nine months off that? And I just thought that was so funny. And even the guards, like in this high tower, chuckled over that. Like, he had a great, great, great sense of humor. Wow, that's quite a concept, though.

Starting point is 00:41:16 I mean, if you could just be walking around knowing that you got a free nine months in your pocket, and then you could just get picked up for shoplifting and just, no, no, no, I'm good. Here's my month. I thought that was funny as fuck. Wow. So, yeah, no, it's crazy because, like, I remember I said when X passed, I said, like, something along the lines of, like, he was the Tupac of our generation. And then, like, TMZ immediately hits me up. They, like, want me to say that on camera for TMZ. But I feel like whenever I hear stories about Tupac, it's, like, that comparison just seems more and more apt. Like, in terms of Pock and X, both being young people that were extremely rambunctious, poorly. behaved, crazy, violent, etc. And then very quickly, like the weight of the world and the

Starting point is 00:42:04 pressure of realizing how big their influence was led them to realize very quickly in X's case that like a lot of the stuff he'd been associating himself with was really not good and he wanted to have a positive impact in the world and they were both sort of taken away right before

Starting point is 00:42:20 they were able to start doing that. And they were both super intelligent and I didn't know X so I shouldn't really speak. No, he was In Pox case, he was just like before his time. Like he was so fucking intelligent. Right. Unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:42:38 Yeah. And it's crazy to see how he's really revered as a real poet now, too. Like I love seeing the way I've read a few different like short poetry books or like articles that try to, you know, sort of contextualize what he was doing and everything. And it's, it's very good like in my lifetime to see his, his words taken so. seriously because like I remember one thing and I think a lot of people kind of have this story is that I saw my mom bust out in tears when she heard dear mama. Really?

Starting point is 00:43:07 Yeah and that you know previously in my life my mom had told me the rap was stupid and I think she had you know I think at one point my dad had heard me listening to a particularly offensive Tupac song and he had actually destroyed all my Tupac CDs because he was convinced that his you know 11 year old kid was learning about all this terrible stuff from Tupac. It was the destruction of you. Right. And then to see my mom have that reaction to that song.

Starting point is 00:43:32 And for us to have that shared moment of like, holy shit, like, you do appreciate the stuff that I'm into. Like, that was very, very big for me. Yeah. Yeah. So then Tupac passes. And what was the change in the culture that you saw from that, from the ramifications of that? I think, well, the, the biggest.

Starting point is 00:43:57 change was that it ended the whole east coast, West Coast rivalry, at least as far as the media. And it was very media driven. But as far as the media drove it and then also on the streets, like we really started to embrace each other a little bit more. It made it real, if that makes any sense. It made it like, oh, fuck, this could happen. Like people could die behind this shit. And not just random people could die.

Starting point is 00:44:27 like superstars. Like superstars could die. And people won't know who did it or, you know, it'll be an unsolved mystery forever, you know. Do you take a- And I think that people just became a little bit more. The labels changed on the business side. The labels immediately said we no longer want any street labels. So any label that was attached to any street connotation,

Starting point is 00:44:57 whereas in the past it had been a badge of honor was no longer a badge of honor. Right. If I was setting up a meeting for somebody at a major label, I would always have to tell them, okay, whatever you do, don't wear red or black into the,

Starting point is 00:45:13 red or blue into this meeting because it's going to, it's going to adversely affect you. So let's all wear black or let's wear white or gray or whatever. But it became where the labels who knew nothing about street shows, whatsoever tried to learn as much as they could so that they could be against it.

Starting point is 00:45:32 Do you think that the, do you think the media really was at fault for drumming up a lot of that East versus West hysteria? Absolutely. Absolutely. They jumped on it at a time when rap was just really starting to go mainstream. So it became extremely topical. And then it fueled like half of the population that was anti-rap to begin with, you know? And then, of course, it fueled all the racists, like, see, see, you know? It really, like, the timing was horrendous for it. Right. And, I mean, I find myself thinking about the responsibility that I have

Starting point is 00:46:15 or that other people in the media have a lot of times when, you know, there will be a clip of a Brooklyn rapper in particular. I've been paying a lot of attention to these Brooklyn rappers, but there'll be a clip of one of them basically, you know, sending a threat out into the world or saying something that's basically them saying that they're going to kill somebody from the other side. And, you know, it pops off in my brain

Starting point is 00:46:39 that if I were to take that video and put it on the no jumper page and say in the title what he actually was saying there that a lot of people would watch it, would be interested in it, would gravitate towards it, but at the same time, how much respect.

Starting point is 00:46:55 responsibility am I going to have if one of these guys actually gets killed. There's a kid named Nick Blicky who actually got killed in New York just the other day and it was a immediate. I think Saturday night. Yeah. Right. And there's there's, I mean, I'm not going to get into it, but there was a diss song released just before this and there was a back and forth on Instagram that basically could contextualize how, you know, I have no idea how he died. But certainly any kind of tension that was going on at that time was certainly inflamed by a lot of the conversation that was going on online. It's like if I, take, you know, an hour-long Instagram Live and clip a 30-second clip and put it out there into the world. And I really feel like I am pouring gas onto the flames in a way that sometimes it happens and it's basically already done for itself. When a rapper's big enough, you know, if Pop Smoke says something about, or if Pop Smoke, rest of piece, head said something about this kind of thing, then maybe that feels like it's more news directly because he's so big that it's going to be amplified.

Starting point is 00:47:53 but there's there's i think the media has more responsibility than they let on because we we are certainly capable of antagonizing a lot of these rivalries i agree and and the media did stir up the whole east coast west coast i mean it existed i'm not saying they didn't i'm not saying they invented it but they did stare it up and then they created such a frenzy around it where they started giving voice to people that probably shouldn't have had a voice or should have kept their opinions to themselves, you know? And it's very much the case now, too, because it's like any member of a rapper's crew

Starting point is 00:48:35 can basically like become famous by going on social media and threatening violence, saying all kinds of crazy stuff. It's like we see it all the time now. It's like, and it's very easy for media outlets to just decide that that stuff is worth throwing on Instagram from millions of people to see. And that's a little scary.

Starting point is 00:48:56 It's a problem. You know, it's absolutely a problem because bad news travels fast and with clicks and good news nobody cares about. So how do we get back to a place where people care about the good shit instead of just caring about, you know, who diss to? Right. Definitely. When you watch this 6-9 situation unfolding in the public eye, this is something that I've never seen before where he seemingly has like a huge. huge fan base and is getting essentially no support from anyone in hip hop. I was looking through those posts that he put up and I didn't see one comment from a rapper,

Starting point is 00:49:35 which was pretty stunning to me. You know, you see a quarter million comments and you don't see one person that you would think of as like a significant rapper. And that's pretty shocking. And it seems like, you know, I feel like if you were a big rap music festival and you were to invite him at this time, I think you would get a huge amount of blowback from the actual rap community. Agreed.

Starting point is 00:50:01 What's your perspective on it? And do you think that the rap world sort of has a responsibility to, in some ways, ignore a lot of the stuff that he's doing? Like Snoop Dog basically said that in his post the other day where he said, you know, I ain't fucking with him and I ain't fucking with anybody who's supporting that shit either. So it's a very, very unique situation we're seeing with that. How do you view that as a? I think that's the OG way.

Starting point is 00:50:24 Like, you know, the OG way is that if you don't like something somebody's doing, you don't fuck with them. It's really that simple. You know, when all of this first came out, I was very interested to see how it would go and where it would go. Because I come from the generation where, you know, you don't snitch. The problem is kind of everybody does, but they deny it. what he did was in my eyes,

Starting point is 00:50:53 unconscionable, but he's been so open and out about it. Like he's not trying to deny it. He's not trying to hide it, which is what most people do. You know, he's just like, yeah, I did it.

Starting point is 00:51:06 And I would do it again. And I was anxious to see how this generation would embrace him coming home. Like, would they support him? Would they shy away? away from him. Like to me, he's a giant science experiment. And I'm looking to see how does this get handled? Because we don't have precedent in hip hop. And there's, you know, a shit ton of people that have snitched. But nobody who has actually stood up and said, yeah, I did. And I'll do it again.

Starting point is 00:51:41 Right. You know? Like there's characters even in like when I'm talking about the Brooklyn drill stuff, There's people who are popular rappers that have, like, you know, a lot of people accusing them of being a snitch, but they deny it. And so it's kind of up in the air. And we don't really even know. Like, I don't know what the real story is. For me, as a civilian, I have no way of figuring that out. Exactly. And that's how it's always been.

Starting point is 00:52:04 Like, even in my generation, like, we all, we would all kind of like whisper behind the scenes. And, you know, a lot of guys will be like, yo, let me check your paper, you know. Let me see, let me see, you know, let me see if you have or not. But it's never really, there's never really been somebody before that has stood up and said, yeah, I did it. And I do it again. It's just so far into me because I come from a world where not only do you not do that, but you could die for doing that. Right. So it's just, it's just a little foreign to me.

Starting point is 00:52:37 You know, I'm watching Meek Mills reaction to him. And that to me is the norm. Right. I know. And the idea that he could die for that too is, I mean, it's a wild situation where he's had to move multiple times over the course of like a week just because of the level of, you know, the level of heat that's on him. And I mean, I don't want to see anybody get hurt. But it's also like that's the thing that makes people tune in over and over is the idea that it's, it's that this guy hasn't been hurt and that it's people want to see it finally it's going to happen. he's become a TV show.

Starting point is 00:53:14 He's like a reality show. And that's sad because it's his real life. But, you know, it's like he built this. It's not like somebody put a gun to his head and forced him into the situation that he got himself into in order to put him in a situation where he had to choose to either snitch or do however many years, you know, whatever. So it's 100% self-created. it's it's you know it's a little hard to feel sorry for him frankly that's a fact um having said that you know i thought prior to all this i thought he was an amazing artist right you know to me he was like this generation's onyx i loved his energy i loved his passion i thought his music was great

Starting point is 00:54:00 there was one point where i even tried to reach out to him to work with him when he was coming up he was already like he was already surrounded by a team of people but i would have loved to have worked with him. And if I had, he would have never ever gotten into the situation he was in. Yeah, because I mean, when you when you look at that, well, but you know, that's interesting because there was a lot of people around him early on that I think told him like

Starting point is 00:54:21 you really don't have a reason to be getting all. Like the dude Snow Billy, who himself is a big time, like New York gangster. I was watching an interview with him the other day where he said that even with him being a huge blood in New York, he wanted 6'9 to appeal

Starting point is 00:54:38 to a different audience and not full embrace the blood shit and that was ultimately what basically caused them to split apart was that he knew he knew that that blood cosine was going to make his shit way bigger than it could have been otherwise and he actually was willing to take on that risk you know be careful what you wish for it might come true that's a fact um so we have like a half hour left that i think we can reasonably talk so i just wanted to get some some more interesting tales out of you i feel like i we got to try to do a part two if you're up for it but absolutely I love your um podcast by the way oh really yeah I've been watching you since you were in the back of the store really that's dope I mean we were

Starting point is 00:55:21 there was multiple stores the second store we did a lot more normal stuff the first store was pretty much just an iPhone and a and a really I didn't want I didn't know you then oh yeah but I mean a lot of people didn't know that we were just filming those interviews on an iPhone like the X interview was filmed on an iPhone on a on a bike stand okay I watch you then okay okay oh wow iPhone on a bike stand, yeah. I love it. Okay. Talk to me about Lil Wayne.

Starting point is 00:55:45 Let's hear a little bit about how you got to know Little Wayne. And just so you know, I'm going to order a salad on my phone on Postmates while we do this. So this is not me texting. And I'm going to put it behind my thigh. I just sat here and took my 30 daily vitamins in front of you. So, you know, I can't. I didn't even like ask you if I could. I just fucking did it.

Starting point is 00:56:07 Okay. You know, I've actually never met Little Wayne. Oh, wow. Okay. Isn't that crazy? He was probably 10, 11, 12, 13 years old somewhere in there when I started working with cash money. But I'm going to tell you the cash money story because that's kind of interesting and funny. Oh, no. I know that like the cash money story and the no limit story are the big stories.

Starting point is 00:56:32 But okay, that's very interesting. You never actually met Wayne. Yeah. Because he was just so young at that time that you were working. They were still young. Right. And it was really like they were all about. BG at the time. I was all about Wayne, but they were all about BG. And not to say that I didn't

Starting point is 00:56:48 love BG because I did like baby gangster's awesome. But with Wayne, I just found him to be super lyrical at that young age and I knew what he was going to grow into. And I knew he was going to be a beast. And I knew that like over some many fresh tracks like, you know, I could fart on a many fresh track and it would sound good. Right. Just he's, you know, he's such a beast. with it. I went to New Orleans for a music conference and I went to a store called Peaches, which was the independent record store where kind of everybody shopped. And I saw an album and the rapper's name was, I think Pimp Daddy. I forget his name, to be honest. But I came out of the store and I popped it into my rental car and I loved it and I turned it over and I saw the cash money logo. And I'm like,

Starting point is 00:57:41 this is really great. I need to go find these guys. So I started looking for them. And I went into the projects. And the funny thing about being a white woman in the projects is people either thought I was a cop or a social worker. Right. Either way, it was a loss, right? I couldn't find them.

Starting point is 00:58:01 So I went to Caliope. I went to Magnolia. I still couldn't find them. So that was in May of 97. I went back to New York. I was living in Brooklyn at the time. I went back to Brooklyn. And I got a call from a street team guy out of Houston called Lump.

Starting point is 00:58:20 And he wanted to introduce me to the two brothers that ran cash money records. And they needed help and he felt like I could really help them. And I'm like, how did this just drop on my fucking lap? This was in August. So three months later, here it is dropping, you know, into my lap. And I'm like, this is awesome. I'm like, guys, I really want to work. with you. I want to shop you a deal. I helped do M&M's deal. I helped do twist his deal. I help with

Starting point is 00:58:47 do or die. Like I've got, you know, I've got this track record and you should let me shop you a deal. And they came to me because I had played a small role in Master P's deal. And they hated Master P, but they wanted the type of deal that he had. And I knew that we could get that because they had been putting out 31 CDs over a six year period. So, they had so much music in the marketplace. The only thing is they kept dropping it fast, like back to back. So they'd put out a project. It would get sales of like between 5,000 and 25,000.

Starting point is 00:59:24 They'd put out the next thing. Then they'd put out the next thing. So they weren't really giving enough time to get anything up to like 100,000, but they could have easily. Right. And they weren't going outside of Louisiana and Texas. So I knew that if we brought them, them up into Chicago where I had the relationships from working with Twista. And if we brought them

Starting point is 00:59:47 into the mid-south, like Memphis and Mississippi, that they would just be out of here. So when I started working with them, I put together a business plan. I started shopping them a deal. And at the same time, I started helping them build their numbers so that instead of just selling 5,000 to 25,000 units, they would be at like 75,000 to 100,000, which I knew is what was the magic spot that would make the major labels go crazy. And really, the reason that they got such an amazing deal is they let me say no for nine months. That's really why their deal was so great. We just kept turning people down. The deals weren't right. The very first deal was from penalty records. It was for 75,000, and it was just for juvenile. They wanted just juvenile.

Starting point is 01:00:36 because he was kind of bubbling pretty well. He was the star at that time, for sure. He was the star at that point, or would have been the star at that point. Do you remember how you felt when you first saw the Haft video? Because for me, as like a 12-year-old, that was a pretty seismic moment. Yes. Yes. I mean, I always knew that they could do.

Starting point is 01:00:55 I always knew they could be big. I didn't know they could be as big as they were. I knew they'd be huge. And I had the same thing with Eminem. Like with Eminem, I always knew he was going to be. huge, but I didn't think he'd become like the biggest. And it was, I had the same feeling with cash money. It was like, wow, I know these guys are going to be, be huge.

Starting point is 01:01:19 But like they outsold anything I could have even have forecasted or dreamt about. And I especially realized it like how was, you know, seismic, like you said. But when they put out back that ass up and I saw that that song, was being played at like white weddings. I was like, holy shit. Yeah. Like that was just some next level shit.

Starting point is 01:01:46 And that's when I realized, okay, these guys are international superstars. That's actually hilarious to even think about how much had to change between like the the Ha video, which I was in love with it. The second that I saw it, the video itself was unbelievable.

Starting point is 01:02:00 But then back that ass up is only a couple years later. But they had gone, you know, they had like been able to translate what they were doing into and like back that ass up was just the perfect epitomization of like how we're going to take our sound and sort of sneak it into a more mainstream audience by giving them a straight booty anthem absolutely and so is that ever part of the conversations you were having with them is like we need to find that massive hit no no no it was really just getting them to the next level so that they could then go in I never really have created conversations with artists. I stay on the business side because I feel like it's their art form. And I put so much value in the art

Starting point is 01:02:47 that it's really them. Like I don't want to influence anything that they do negatively or positively. I might pull somebody aside. Like when I worked with C Murder, some of his music was just so misogynistic. And we had such an amazing relationship that it was like, wait a minute, how can you be that guy?

Starting point is 01:03:10 You know? So he and I have had countless conversations about it, you know, in terms of his lyrics and what he was saying. But it's how he really felt. Like it wasn't like he was making up his feelings. It's like these are the women that he grew up around. And this was how he really felt. and it was his way of getting it out

Starting point is 01:03:37 and I would never try to censor an artist from getting out the emotion because I believe that music is therapy for artists and trying to hold it in it's sort of like needing to throw up and you try to hold it in it's like you can't you just got to get it out. Yeah I've never

Starting point is 01:03:55 I've always like thought about and wondered how I could make myself a part of that studio experience like if I were to sign an artist how I would then want to interact with the music that they were making. And like, you know, I see it a lot of times when I see people who are, who are producers or engineers where they're very, they're very easily able to sort of slip into the, into that experience of them being in the studio and have a really positive impact on the artist.

Starting point is 01:04:24 Myself, I've never made music. I never made beats. So it's like I'm open to the idea of signing somebody, but I have no idea how I would be able to sort to have an impact in that scenario? I think the reality is that you don't necessarily need to. Like you have to sign somebody that you believe in and that you want to just help them get to the next level. Like you just want to sort of give them a leg up.

Starting point is 01:04:49 You don't want to ever be the guy in the studio, or at least I shouldn't say you, but for me, I never wanted to be the person in the studio that, you know, was feeling like, oh, gee, I always wanted to be a rapper. now here's my chance, I'm going to have this guy go in and say everything that I always wanted to say. For me, it's just got to be more authentic than that. And I think the really great creators are the people that can shape that and let the artist bring out what's best that's already inside of them. Like a really great producer might give you some ideas of topics and how to say things a little bit differently. and how to sort of step back

Starting point is 01:05:35 and have more of a bird's eye view like instead of talking about how, you know, one person fucked you over to make a song that's about struggle because it'll relate to more people. So I think they're good at helping the artist see how to look at things from a different angle. But I don't think the great producers

Starting point is 01:05:58 are the ones that say, oh, you should say it like this. you should say it like that. They might hear them fuck up in their flow and say, okay, you need to resay that because you stumbled a little. Or you're a little offbeat and it doesn't sound right. Sometimes being a little offbeat is amazing, but it's got a sound right. And I think a great producer is somebody that can be in the studio

Starting point is 01:06:21 and sort of cultivate the creativity to make it be the best that it can be without controlling it. Yeah. There's a couple of times I've been in the studio with a rapper and I've like corrected their grammar in terms of like a lyric and I do that in my head I've never got any pushback I've always had them be like okay you're right like somehow that is one thing that when I explain like yo you you like you used a plural here so you have to change how you said this part in the beginning and they're like 100% and also yeah that that stands out to me too

Starting point is 01:06:54 is I hate when rappers are just too off topic like if you're talking about one thing and then you just completely like lose the momentum and just switch it up to something else and I'm just I've never done it but I've often been like maybe you shouldn't just go from talking about like your heartbreak to just talking about you know you know running down on your enemy or some shit right away like maybe stay a little bit more lyrically focused that's one thing I really appreciate in a rapper right right that's just I just really I just really like authenticity and I love when rappers can be themselves and it's just you know like i got into it for that like i'm in it for the culture not to try to change who they are and maybe that's bad maybe that's good i don't know but it works

Starting point is 01:07:43 for me yeah i think it's good you got to just like be able to sort of figure out where you fit in exactly okay so with rap coalition which is that's your primary thing on the day to day now or what are the businesses that you work on daily it's the it's the not-for-profit side of what i do. We educate artists and we pull artists out of bad deals. It's not something I have to do every day, thank God. I mean, education is, but pulling people out of bad deals, I don't do that every day. We're in our 28th year. We still don't charge for that. We still help artists for free. But on the for-profit side of what I do, I run a company called Power Moves, and we help artists make money with their music. So when an artist has an investor, and by investor, I mean they have to have

Starting point is 01:08:29 around a quarter million dollars, right? Because that's what it takes to make money in music. That's what it takes to build an independent label or a hugely successful career. They usually reach out to me and say, okay, I've got the investor now show me how to do this. And very hands on, we show them how to market, how to promote, how to structure and organize their company, how to get to that next level so that there'll be money coming back into the company so that they can then go on to sign other artists and really build an independent record label, like a real one, you know. Some people that hire me want to build leverage so that they can go

Starting point is 01:09:11 and get a deal. I'm not against that, but I really like the guys that can stay independent. Like to me, that's just awesome. When you can have the control over your career, you can call the shots and then you can build a company so that you can keep doing the same thing for others coming behind you like that's the goal is to build many independent labels as i possibly can before i die just just as a high profile example when you're watching the situation go down with megan the stallion and carl crawford um is that the kind of situation that you see playing out all the time where you have a guy who's you know not really a music industry guy but he's trying to start a label of some sort he signs somebody to a deal that might be sort of objectionable and then uh

Starting point is 01:09:57 You sort of get called in, I'm assuming, around like the time that Megan had to have Rock Nation called in, where she just basically realized that the terms of her deals weren't fair. Were you looking at that specific deal? And did you have any strong feelings about it? I did look at that deal. I didn't speak out on it because I didn't know what the deal was with 300. And it's very hard for me to look at her deal. with Carl Crawford and not know what they signed to at 300. Because the deal that they signed to is what would have made that deal good or bad.

Starting point is 01:10:37 And what I mean by that is I think the split was 6040 between them. I can't really remember, but let's just say for the sake of argument that it was 6040. And if she's getting 60% of 100%, that's fucking great. But if she's getting 60% of 12 points, That's some fuck shit. So I couldn't speak on it because I didn't know what the deal was between the label she was signed to and the label that was inevitably paying them. And nobody can speak on that except people that have seen that agreement. I'm interested to see what happens with it going to court because at the end of the day, she signed a contract.

Starting point is 01:11:21 So I'm anxious to see what Texas courts do. You know, the artist friendly side of me is anxious to see if the court will throw it out. But the side of me that saw how much money he spent to get her where he got her makes me say, you know, he should get a return on his investment. Sometimes artists, you know, I'm going through that with one of my clients right now. Like sometimes artists don't look at the value. of the money or the experience. I've got a client who put, you know, over $125,000 into a rapper and the rapper was like, yeah, I'm not happy now. I'm just going to go sign to QC. Right. And it doesn't work that way. Like if you sign an agreement with somebody,

Starting point is 01:12:07 you have to live up to that agreement or you have to negotiate your way out of it. There is no, I'm just going to pretend this didn't happen. Right. It's like trying to get unprignant. It's very hard to do. Do you feel like the average rapper coming out right now? I mean, everybody signs to a major label. It feels like these days, do you, do yourself see a very value, a very, you know, a logical path that they could take that doesn't involve signing to a major label? Or do you end up thinking that most artists need to do that? No, I don't think artists need to at all. I think that, you know, everybody has to do what's best for them. So I don't want to say all of one thing is great or none of another isn't, right? So there are people that have done very well. Maclemore's done great

Starting point is 01:12:58 independent. Chance the rapper has been great independent. But when you see McElmore had that that big explosion for a couple of years and it doesn't feel like his career has necessarily had the legs that you might have expected. And I guess sort of the same. That had to be his choice though. I mean, yeah, I wonder that. And sometimes I wonder if it was the label. And same thing with Chance. Like Chance huge artists, but we never really saw him. have that mega hit. There's like there's certain things that didn't seem like they really happened in Chance's career that maybe they would have if he had been signed to a massive label, right? And they may have. I'm assuming that if he didn't have a mega hit, he didn't want one.

Starting point is 01:13:33 Because we all know that he could have bought a mega hit. You know, he's got the money. He's got the access. So he may have just been driven by wanting to just build a career and put music out that he wanted people to hear. And I don't know him, so it's really hard for me to speak about what his intentions are. But to me, he is a gospel rapper. Like he is, you know, I just didn't notice it for the first couple of albums. You know, I just feel like he's driven by something a little different than wanting to be the next Drake. Right.

Starting point is 01:14:09 I may be wrong. Like I said, I don't know him. I just feel like he puts music out that he wants to share with the world. he's not trying to be the next big superstar. Could you be a superstar independently? I don't know. It's not been proven. If my goal as a rapper was to be as big as Drake,

Starting point is 01:14:32 I would probably sign to a major label. If I was an artist that didn't have any entrepreneurial ability and no hustle, I would for sure sign to a major label. So I don't want to imply that major labels don't have a place in this. or that they're bad because they're not. They're just different. You know, I see major labels as a cruise ship, and I see independent rappers as jet skis.

Starting point is 01:14:59 And they both have their benefits. I wouldn't want to take a jet ski all the way to Europe. I'd rather be on a cruise ship to do that. But I also wouldn't want to be on a cruise ship if I had to make a U-turn really quickly. You know, if I was going towards, I don't know, like an iceberg, I wouldn't want to be in a cruise ship. I'd rather be on a jet ski because I know I could just zip around it so easily.

Starting point is 01:15:24 No, yeah. That's a pretty good metaphor. I was a pretty good metaphor. I was thinking about saying, like, would you rather be the general manager of a Home Depot or would you rather start your own local hardware store? Yeah, I guess it depends on your goals. And if I'm going to start my own hardware store, I'm absolutely going to join ACE hardware because I'd want that, you know, I'd want that, and we have Merlin in the

Starting point is 01:15:50 independent world. So I'd want that, that magic of being able to group with all the other mom and pop stores to get the discounts. Yeah, that is, that is a strange thing. Like I grew up with, you know, constantly because my mom's a librarian, I grew up constantly hearing the argument, not from her necessarily, but the idea that we need to, you know, support local bookstores because Barnes and Nobles is just coming through and destroying all of them. And now the argument is basically you need to support Barnes and Nobles because Amazon's going to destroy them. Yes, that's real. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:23 When you were a kid, did you read a lot or did you rebel against it because your mom was a librarian? Yeah, no. She got me into it like real young to the point where just, you know, I definitely spent a lot of time not reading. But certainly, you know, she made it like a very normal part of my life from really early on, Which is like a huge thing that I'm just mega thankful for when I really think about it. Like I know a ton of people who just did not grow up with that influence. And it's the kind of thing now where reading, you know, reading books feels very optional to a lot of young people. Whereas like probably even when I was, you know, when I was being raised in like the late 80s, early 90s, when I was like in my childhood, that was sort of true then too, where it's like, you know, reading wasn't so necessary in the age of television and everything.

Starting point is 01:17:10 but I hope that I can still convince my kids of the importance of reading long-form stuff. You will because it's in you. You know, when I was growing up, my parents would take me to the bookstore and we were allowed to choose one book. And we were allowed to choose, I can't remember if it was every other week or every month. It was probably every month. And that was such, it was like a treat. And it was like going to the toy store.

Starting point is 01:17:33 And I think that it's, if you raise a child to think that having a book is special or reading is special, they'll read. Do you still read today? Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I find that that's a lot of, because another thing that I've like really been able to find time for in the pandemic is just doing these sort of like long form videos on my channel where I just investigate the fuck out of something and then basically find a way to write about it and then turn that into a video. And I feel like so many people are limited to the information that is on the internet. And it's like if you want to, you know, I feel like I'm working on a video about PimpC. Julia Beverly's book about him is like absolutely unbelievable and most of the time when you listen to people talk about PimpC on the internet you primarily like you could pretty much draw lines between the things on his Wikipedia

Starting point is 01:18:25 and the things that people are talking about because people just tend to go towards the most basic explanation of a person so you know pretty much like if you like I could imagine myself making like an incredibly in-depth video on Tupac but I'm not going to be able to make it off of just you know, like I'm going to be extremely limited if I just stick to the stuff that's on YouTube that everybody's looking at. Whereas these books, like there's so many books that are just sitting there on the shelf. And if you were to take however many hours to really dig in there, I mean, there's unbelievable amounts of information that just isn't really online yet. Exactly.

Starting point is 01:19:01 Wendy, I definitely am going to put together some more questions and hit you up in the very near future and try to do this again because it's one of the better conversations I had in recent memory. Thank you. That's a huge compliment. I'm so humbled that you were like come do this. I was like, oh, fuck. You know, it's, it's one thing to talk with people about the industry, but it's another thing to talk to people whose shit you actually watch. I appreciate that. And I'm just, I'm really, really, really humbled by that. Thank you. Actually, my publicist, Laura, I think gave me the idea because she is, she is, she is. more familiar with like every personality in hip hop, including people who are, you know,

Starting point is 01:19:46 people who made their mark 40 years ago, including people who have 5,000 followers on YouTube right now. Like, she is so ridiculously familiar with all this stuff. And I'm not 100% sure why all the time, but she actually, I think, she tossed me the idea. And I was like, wow,

Starting point is 01:20:03 that is a great idea, Laura. Thank you, yeah. Thank you, Laura. It's always thank you, Laura. And she will have to do, timestamps for this. So she's going to see this in real time as she's sitting there writing out the notes about everything else she said. And I'm sure that she'll, she's probably in tears right now. She's kind of, kind of emotional. Hey, when's your baby do?

Starting point is 01:20:22 Halloween. Are you nervous? It's a little spooky, but not, not so much. I'm so proud of you. Good for you. I'm excited. Yeah, I just, I hope I can, uh, find ways consistently to make my girlfriend feel like I am, you know, a very big part of the child rearing because I know her so well and I know that she's the type to really just like take on everything she possibly can without really asking for help. So I'm just, I'm trying to get her into that mentality of like you have to ask me. You have to tell me that this, this and this. I'm a responsibility and I'll do it. But don't like, you know, I just don't want her to think that she's limited to the amount of help that I sort of like outwardly just give her. I'm like,

Starting point is 01:21:04 you got to demand shit of me, you know? Right. As long as she knows that, that's fine. But every now and again, you're going to have to just step up. Like when you see her tired, step in. Exactly. Yeah, I'm trying to be more because she's just too polite. She just doesn't want to tell me that she needs, like what she needs for me. It's like that's my main concern is rising to the occasion, you know. Yeah, I'm the same way.

Starting point is 01:21:26 I've killed every relationship I've ever had because of that. Really? Yeah. It's really hard to like say, I need this, I need that. Really? Wow, that's interesting. Hmm, maybe I should get you on the phone with her. Interesting bad.

Starting point is 01:21:38 Put that on the list of questions for the next time. There you go. Hey, and any artists out there who need help or who want an opinion, who want expertise, how can they get in touch with you? There's two ways. They can either text me at 404-737-1902 or they can email me at This Is Wendy Day at gmail.com. Okay. Amazing. Either way is good.

Starting point is 01:22:05 Oh, hey, Wendy, thank you so much. and thank you for really everything you've done in the industry for all these years. There's so many artists out there that people probably don't know that you are so influential in their careers and stuff. We only kind of skim the surface here. So massively appreciate your time. That's the amazing part is I haven't stopped. There you go.

Starting point is 01:22:24 Thank you, love. Give me an artist you're extremely excited about at this moment. I really like Rod Wave and I really like Roddy Rich. Like there are two that I'm just really like without even, having to think about like who who i would say to you like i'm watching both of them and and i'm amazed by both of them i love mazi out of the bay area i think mazzi's just incredible very true mazzi you got to listen to his album over and over and over and then you still are going to have to go on google and look up like a million different slang terms and different like weird gang references

Starting point is 01:23:00 and shit it's like yeah i i love a rap album where i understand the actual words that they're saying, but it's so deep into the culture that thereof that it takes a lot of clarification. Because there's so many rappers I listen to right away. And I'm just like, I know everything they just said and none of it was interesting. And that's what the Namazi is creating this labrant of different things for you to sort of travel through. Exactly. It makes it very interesting.

Starting point is 01:23:28 Who are you listening to right now that you absolutely love? Wow, that's a good question. Like a lot of these Brooklyn guys I've been listening to a lot lately. I've been listening to the new Drake album God, I don't know I'm super deep into this Brooklyn shit I'm not gonna lie, that's been a huge part of Chef G's.

Starting point is 01:23:46 I really love that about you. Like you go down the labyrinth like you're going down the rabbit hole and I love that. Yes, and once you get into like the random like kids who are in gangs who are not necessarily rappers but are on Instagram acting crazy,

Starting point is 01:24:01 there's some weird shit out there, Wendy. I'm gonna send you some links. Please, I would love that. Okay, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you so much. Thank you. Thank you, love.

Starting point is 01:24:11 Appreciate it. Take care.

No Jumper - Wendy Day Full Interview

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