No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1018: Previewing Oakmont

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

Soly and Tron debrief on their trip to Oakmont ahead of the upcoming US Open with their favorite shots, holes and observations from playing the course. In part two of tonight's pod, Soly catches up with Jeff Hall - the USGA's managing director of rules and open championships - to talk through the setup philosophy for this year's championship and how they'll employ new pin positions thanks Gil Hanse's restoration work. Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠⁠ Support our sponsors: ⁠Holderness & Bourne ⁠FanDuel.com/nlu If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different? Better than most. Expect anything different. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Lange podcast. Solly here. We are ready to talk. Oakmont, it is U.S. Open SCN.

TC and I took the trip up to the greater Pittsburgh, Northeast area, whatever you want to call it. He's calling in from New York today. Hello, Mr. TC. I am in the Northeast today. We were in the Paris of Appalachia. Uh, I was at last month for media day, but I'm actually calling in from Holderness and Born worldwide headquarters here in Armant. I flew into LaGuardia this morning and drove up here.

So well, tell us about what's going on at H and B. I mean, you've, of course, everybody knows you can put an NLU 10 at hbgolf.com, get 10% off your first order. That's the only discount code on the market for H&B. But what else is going on up there? Yeah, I know they'll be heavily on site at the US Open. They'll be a big part of the merch tent there. They'll have their US Open stuff on hbgolf.com

in the lead up as well as during the week. Yeah, I'm going to get a look at all the fall collection today that's forthcoming as well. So I'm actually, you can see the literally hanging out with Alex and John the rest of the day today and they're going to play golf tomorrow morning. So, but yeah, they've got, I would say some of the stuff we've got in our shop right now. Like I'm wearing this, this is the Laidlay. This is an awesome, it's kind of a new and improved version of the Betts pullover. They're seasonal colorways. They've got this Citroen color that's really, really popping for kind of spring summer. And then Sally, they'll get into the Liberty stuff, which will be kind of rider cup, mid summer into fall stuff as well.

So big things happen. And I would, the one thing I would really point to is the shorts as well. The like, I think they're the best shorts in the game. And just- The hardwood short, that's your guy, right? Yeah, I've got them in every color, truly. Yeah, hbgolf.com.

Yeah. I want to shout out the Lawson. This is like just the coziest hoodie you could ever throw on it. It's summer and it's not really a summer hoodie, but I really wanted to wear it today. I mean, shit, I bought this when we were up at Oakmont. You're buying more golf clothes. I can't believe it. I can't help it. I'm an addiction. I know. All right. We're going to talk Oakmont, the runner show today. TC and I are going to give you a little bit of reaction from us playing the golf course about a month ago. Now, the back half this episode is going to be Jeff Hall from the USGA. He spoke at the media day as well, but I tracked

him down for about a 40 minute interview, just talking about setup, talking about challenges, talking about US Opens in general, how they treat venues and all of that. But up first is going to be our reaction to it. DC, what did you know about Oakmont going in and kind of what differed from that? What was the same from what you were expecting? Just tell me a little bit about your immediate takeaways from playing the golf course. Yeah. Almost one of those places that I do this with certain courses that I purposely don't learn a lot about them before I actually go and experience it for myself. I just want to have fresh eyes and really understand what the program is all about after leaving instead of before getting there and having preconceived notions.

I think also some of that was just influenced by the tree removal as well. It seems like it's a pretty radically different golf course now versus 10 years ago. So you watch a lot of the previous, like it's awesome watching a lot of those YouTube highlights of when Dustin won or when Cabrera won or even going way back, Johnny Miller, all of those. But far different golf course today, I think probably just as hard, if not harder, but in a really, really cool way. I thought it was, it's just such an expansive piece of property too, that you can't really get a sense of it until you're on site as well. Until you're on the actual holes too. I take away flying the drone out there, I was like,

okay, that seems doable. And you get out there, it's like, oh no, you can't really fully appreciate. That's, again, why the low camera angles are going to be important. Because this place is all about contouring, if you ask me. Yeah, it's contouring, it's scale, it's like crazy depth perception out there. There's all sorts of texture now too.

I think it'll only be better in the next couple of weeks as we get closer to the open recording this on June 2nd. And I think one of the other things is just, I think the highway, I was blown away. Not just the highway, one of the largest highways in the United States. The Pennsylvania turnpike just ripping right through the middle of it. And somehow it works. Like it's- You don't even notice it really.

It's so much lower. Yeah. You know, you hear, you definitely hear it a little bit, but like it almost feels like it's just part of the routing and it, and it, and it's part of the journey when you're on the golf course and didn't quite get the full experience, the routing just cause we, we started on what four, four or five. So we crossed over a few times, but I was blown away at just how well designed even those bridges are crossing over the highway. It's wild. Because they got to shuttle the fans across that for the entire term. It's those two bridges

that do all of it there, but it works. And I don't remember any complaining about any of that or any logistic issues about any of that from the 2016 US Open, which I went back and watched a fair amount of it as well. I was surprised how little I remembered from that other than just the Dustin Johnson ruling thing, which still just makes me laugh how badly they bungled that one. But it's so much TIO in all the YouTube videos. There's a really bad DJ TIO, there's a really bad Ernie TIO, you said that over. It's some really bad stuff. But what would you say your biggest takeaways

of the actual golf course are and the actual, what makes Oakmont in particularly special? Why is US Open going there? I think it's right there with Muirfield as like the, just the best championship course I've ever seen. It's, there's no shortcuts, there's no let up. There's some easy, easier stretches of holes, I think,

but it's a complete test. You gotta be in the fairway. You gotta putt it well. You gotta lag putt it well. Your iron play has to be on point, your distance control has to be on point. I've never seen something that just requires such a variety of shots off the tee, shots into greens, banks and cants of the fairways where you got to shape the ball.

It's truly a complete test of golf. And we saw it on a day that it was wet, it was pretty slow. And I cannot imagine playing that place with lightning fast greens and lightning fast fairways too, of just being able to... What was that hole in the back where you really have to draw it in there to even hold that fairway. And so it's just, it's like a physical, mental, and, you know, strategic examination of your golf game. Yeah. It seems like, again, if you are, you're probably gonna hear me say this a lot over the next couple of weeks, maybe even later with Jeff Hall. But if like,

if you're a U S open masochist and a traditionalist that loves thick rough, like it's going to be your U S open, you're going to like it a lot. Now what I'm really looking forward to, and I know we've done our fair share of picking on Quail Hollow, but it was killing me at Quail Hollow. How often guys would hit poor shots into greens, and Trevor Immelman would say, he's fine there. He's fine there.

He's fine there. Which I'm not picking on Trevor. That's just a reflection of what that golf course is asking. I don't think there's going to be a lot of wayward golf shots that are going to be like, oh, yeah, that's fine there. There's going to be so much more consequence to every shot. Similar, we're recording this the day after Aaron Hills. Like there was just so much consequence if you were not getting your ball to stop in the right place. Now help me with this. I talk a little bit about this with Jeff a little later on, but

I'm curious your thought here. I've gone to some of these media days before. I've gone to golf courses, US Open golf courses prior. I've seen the thick rough and I've said, this is gonna be about accuracy. It's gonna be about accuracy. And it ends up just being hit as far as you want. And because everybody's missing fairways in the distance, it's the most important thing. Yet I think I said to you when we were playing out there,

I was like, all right, if this place isn't the one that tests accuracy, I don't know what will because it just felt like the punishments were so severe off the fairway that you couldn't just bomb it without inhibition. And you had to like some of these ditches right off the fairway bunkers are not pitch out sideways, but they're not, they're not walls aren't rolled to the bottom of them like quail hollow and easy to get out of. And they built those lips up too. Like that was one of my big takeaways was, I think I was in a fairway bunker on our first hole, which was the fourth.

And I could advance it. Like I could hit a 46 degree wedge out of it. Like I could advance it, you know, 80, a hundred yards. And that was, that was best case scenario, right? It's not overly penal where you're punching out sideways, like a pop bunker, but it's a, it's a half to a full shot penalty. Which yeah, it, it again goes back to, back to consequence and back to, I think we want us, we want to see accuracy get tested off the tee. I think I was team Bryson and Rory before we had seen it.

And well, I mean, Scotty hadn't gone on his run like he has to this point. Now I'm right. I mean, obviously I think everybody's going to be on Scotty coming into this one, but it just seems like, it seems like a really good threading the needle of so many different aspects of a golf course. I think one of the things that maybe was lacking at Wingfoot was there's not a lot of dog legs. that maybe was lacking at wing foot was there's not a lot of doglegs. So they took all those trees out and it was truly, there's not as many angles and stuff too. Most of those greens are wide open in

the front. And so I think there it was like, Hey, advance it down there as far as possible and then figure it out. I think at Oakmont, there's, Hey, there's more doglegs. There's, there's a specific side of the hole that's better to miss on. For the most part, I think they're going to do a really good job with graduated rough to have like all rough wasn't created equal. They were hand mowing and getting that stuff to stand straight up and there's certain sides like, like that right side of 14 or 13. I keep messing it up. I'm just gonna 15 the long par four is that what you're thinking? 15? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That right side of 14 or 13. I keep messing it up. I'm just going to 15 the long par four. Is that what you're thinking? 15? Yeah,

yeah, that right side of that one, like, one of those places like, yeah, like that, they shouldn't they don't miss there, right? Like you're like, you might not be able to find your golf ball kind of thing. So I think there and then also just, just, I think there's, there's more angles into these greens as well. So there's less openings in the front. Like wing foot was very open in the front. So if you're in the rough,

you can find a way onto the green and figure out how to two putt. This is like, not only are there less openings in the front, there's holes with openings in the front, but there's a lot more elevation change from the fairway, either going up the hill or down the hill to the point where like, if you miss the fairway on two, two is a short par four,

it is gonna be one of the easiest holes out there. It played as the 13th hardest hole in 2016. They've expanded that green a little bit. They've got some corners. We'll talk with Jeff about that a little later on. But like if you miss that, your life gets really, really hard. Like I don't know what the shot, you could be in a ditch left, you could be in a fairway bunker. Like the cant of that green is severe. The greens are gonna be firm. I would venture to guess. And there's so many bad spots to miss around that green where like you're gonna feel the effects of missing in the wrong spots.

And that's where I think people struggle with the wing foot. Like you could kind of hit it anywhere and you didn't feel the effects of hitting it in the wrong spot nearly as much. Yeah, and it felt like a lot of just like big square greens with a lot going on, but it's just a lot of internal contouring. Whereas these feel like they've got all that internal contouring, but also they've got all those wings, like you said, I think that was one of my biggest takeaways as well. There's certain spots, like two is a really good example of like, I felt like I was at LACC on some of those little fingers

and wings, which makes sense with Gil kind of dusting that off too, but there's just certain bunkers and certain spots that mean like, cool, you're probably gonna end up there if you're trying to force the issue, good luck getting it up and down from there, and then like, I think that was the other thing of there's so many more compounding errors out there, where if you don't take your medicine

and just get it back in play or take the conservative approach and then play offense from there, you're gonna end up making doubles, triples, quads, I think. What are some of the most significant holes or the holes that you've made the biggest impact on you here a month later? You're still thinking about, man, when I think of Oakmont, here's the holes I'm thinking about.

Yeah. I thought one right off the bat, man, just such a cool, I don't know. It reminded me of my favorite stuff from playing up in New England. Then it's like a blend of New England golf and Midwestern golf. And I thought one is just like, cool, you got OB right, you got these bunkers on both sides, you can hit it down there as far as you know, as far as you want, but it kind of narrows up. And then that green is just falling away from you. And the effective area that

you can hit it in to feed it in is very, very small because there's so much going on as far as the mounting and everything there. So that was, that was like a true sets the tone for the day, like welcome to Oakmont spot. Which is crazy. Like it's dead straight par four. Yeah, but like it and I don't remember in 2016 if guys were actually driving it, but I remember them saying that guys could drive it.

I think it was too wet in 16 with the rain that came, but like it runs so far downhill from the top of that hill that like they're saying just hit it over that hill and it's gonna run all the, like the guys could threaten driving the front. Now really, really hard to keep it in the fairway for that long because it's so narrow and it's like a really long bowling alley. But it is just like off the bat, you

know, if you're missing that fairway, you're gonna have to figure out because the green runs away from you and it's not flat from left to right either. Like you can run off to the sides really easily. Yeah, there's this one little knob on the on the one side. And then if you're coming in from the rough, with no spin on it, you could land it 20 yards short of that green and not even think about stopping on the green.

Totally. I mean, even from the fairway, if it gets firm and downwind, you might need to be playing way, way, way short of that green. And just, that's the whole thing is like, I was so behind the eight ball the whole day in the rough, chopping it out and like learning pretty quickly that I couldn't get anything more than a wedge

on anything in the rough. Granted, we had it on a super wet day and it might dry out a little bit. It might be a little different for the best players in the world. But like, I almost didn't even get to experience the challenge of the contouring and the slopes on the green, which are so dramatic. The green speeds they're talking about are insane, like psychotic. There's so much into it. Like you could put a pin in the middle of the ninth green, kind of near where we had it. And it's not near an edge. It's not near a bunker. It's not near rough. And that's about as hard of a pin position as you could possibly have just because of how much stuff is going on internally in those greens, you're going to see these big squared off

greens. And you can see in some of the images from above, like where the expansion has come in and what different pins are going gonna come in there. But my goodness, there's just so much going on there. You're gonna be lag putting so frequently and it's just gonna be, I don't wanna call it a lag putting test, but again, back to that test of control of your golf ball on really slippery, slidey greens with a ton of slope

and a ton of like, is this up or downhill? And course knowledge is gonna play a factor. It just, man, there's just layer upon layer on this golf course. I think layer, I think that's a great point is like layers and like knowing how it's a really tough course to do your homework on. Cause there's so much shit going on that like,

you could play 10 practice rounds out there and be in 10 spots throughout the course of year round where like, I have no way, I have not seen this before. Like weather to a certain pin or you get your shot to a certain part of the green. I think the other thing for me was the amount of variety and like going from one to two like choose what 340 350. You know, but really thoughtful short par four like like I'd always just thought of Oakmont is this big brawny brute which which it is, but there's also, there's so much nuance and there's so much intricacy and thoughtfulness there too.

It's truly the complete test. It's not just hit it as hard as you can and wear out your five iron all day. And I think there's a bunch of flexibility that they have with keys and pins as well. These guys are going to see at least Thursday, lumping Thursday and Friday in together, which I would imagine they'd probably keep those pretty similar, but probably three different golf courses from Thursday, Friday, and then into Saturday, and then into Sunday. So yeah, two was another one for me. And then three, you go back to like, all right, cool. Here's another like 460, 470 yard par four with like one of the coolest greens I've ever seen. Such a wild false front. Like it's just so dramatic. I don't even know if we properly

captured how dramatic that one is, but it's one of those holes. Like a lot of them are like, dude, you're in the fairway. You're going to be fine. You're not going to have a hard time from the fairways here. You're really not. And, but if you're in the roughway, you're gonna be fine. You're not gonna have a hard time from the fairways here. You're really not. But if you're in the rough, I just don't picture it being flawless. I just picture that mattering a lot. That was one of the coolest holes I played a long time. It was shades of number 10 at Shinnecock or stuff that you're going to see over in like Ireland or Scotland. Um, and then, you know, like the part, the par fives are fair. And if you're in the fairway, you can start playing a little offense there. Um, you know, they, they can stretch the par threes out to shit. They can stretch eight out to like almost 300 yards.

Oh, 300. Yeah. They can, it can go over 300 yards depending on where they put the T in the pin. Yeah. So let's get out in front of the bitching this about JT already saying that there's no good par threes over 250. Like it's a one shot hole. If they'd call it a par four, it'd be one of the best drivable holes anywhere in the world. Just play the hole that doesn't matter. Everybody's

got to play the hole. It does not matter. Yeah. And they're not just mindless holes. There's massive greens and it can change. There's a bunch of short grass all around it too. But back to your, I mean, I think nine, you mentioned it, nine like brood of a driving hole, but just such a cool blind shot up into that green and the practice green connects to that green and you got the porch behind and all of that. Just like one of the coolest kind of like seminal spots in all of golf. Okay, I get it. Like this place and I think I think the other thing for me just playing it was like, you truly it matches up with Pittsburgh.

Generally speaking of just like, it's a it's kind of a broad shouldered blue collar city, you know, like they build shit in Pittsburgh. It feels like, you know, you want to, you want to go out there and play like the membership. It's a player's membership. It's a crew golf club of like, Hey, bring your hard hat. We're going to go play for money out here. We're going to go, we're going to go count them all up or we're going to go do the SWAT and it's going to be, you know, you got to come out here, you got to bring your game. You got, you got to make some birdies or else like we're going to talk shit to you. We're

going to make you feel bad if you didn't show up with, with your a game today, which I think is awesome. I would love to play Oakmont again, not in a U S open year, because I did walk away being like, well, one, I just, again, didn't have my game that day. But it was like, I got nothing for that. I can't handle all that. That's so fricking hard.

And I've all, but I also walked away being like, this course is built for the United States open. There's maybe no course ever that I've played. Like a Pinehurst is a great experience for literally any handicap level. Oakmont is not a great experience for any handicap level. It is, if you are a hacker, this is not the golf course for you.

I don't think you're even gonna have fun playing one of the top 10 golf courses in the world. Like it's just, it's meant to be that challenging. And the USGA treats it like it's one of the courses they've said they do the least amount of stuff to, like just kind of show up and do their normal stuff and don't have to manipulate this place to play hard. Which yeah, sometimes I do roll my eyes at like, oh, the, you know, we play the greens every day at 14 or 15 or, you know, and it's like, they do do that there. And it's meant

for that. And then that's what it's built for. And like, that's not out of character. It's not like they're dolling this place up to do that. I think the other, you know, 10 was another one, like similar to one of just like straight down the hill and you gotta, man, like you gotta control your golf ball. And it's off the tee end of the green because the ditch that runs across that fairway, you gotta hit or, you know, you can't just bomb it anywhere you want to. And then you have to ball above your feet into a green that's canting away from you and right to left.

You got to kind of hit some kind of hold up fade to hold it there or us for balls going to go straight to the back and you're going to have very difficult to put. Like it's just element on element on element. And then I thought like 11 kind of tests a different part of your game, right? Where you got to, you got to tell me about 11. I don't get 11.

I didn't really, I don't think we got, I don't think we got the best Intel, like playing it blind a little bit. I would have played it radically different having now seen it. But what would you do? Would you just play short and I would lay back. Yeah. And just play it as a, it's not like it's one of those holes. It's like almost similar to like 15 and Aaron Hills. I'm like, all right, cool. It's not like it's one of those holes. It's like almost similar to like 15 and Aaron Hills. I'm like, all right, cool It's like under 400 yards on the card. This is not a birdie hole today This is a you can you can get yourself tied up in a knots on this hole. So Um, but that was where it you know, I think it really

That's where it surprised me the most like 11 12 was an awesome awesome Uh par 5, you know, I think it's like 660, 670 from the tips, but the way that that green falls away from you, and if you get into trouble off the tee, you're pitching out and then you're hitting a 200 yard shot into a really, really difficult spot. It's a really thoughtful third shot, I think. It's a real par five.

It's a very real par five. Yeah. Like, you know, like, you know, Deidre was talking about that of like, Hey, there's, there's only a few real par fives left in the world. You know, uh, was that 15 at Pine Valley, six at Trulia, you know, and it's like that, that's certainly one of them. I think, um, and then like 13 that par par three right afterwards, it's just, hey, I'm sure they'll play that one probably shorter, a couple of days. And that's a touchier shot. It

reminded me more of what you would see at a Brookline or something like that. And that'll be a great place to watch golf from. And then 14 and kind of two cool counterpoints to one another Kind of running along that ridge line like 15. That was a spectacular green there and then 16 is like Cool, I think I hit driver. I didn't remember that hole. I get it's just a massive part Front. Yeah, I mean I didn't remember it from 2016 like I'm like, oh my god There's a marathon par three left here. I think I have the driveable fort 17th in there, which has played as the easiest hole in 2016. And then 18,

you know all about 18 and the dead straight par four, but tons of bunker elements and again, crazy green contouring, uh, and all of that. And it's man, the NBC has got a big task at hand here because there's so much nuance to all this stuff that I hope it gets documented and displayed. And otherwise it's going to, you know, it's going to wash out if you, if the cameras are too high and you just focus too much on the rough or any of that, because that's the thing.

I think the drone shots there, like how they can broadcast this one versus how they could broadcast it, you know, last time it was here, everything's come so far as far as being able to capture depth of field and similar to what they did drone shot wise at Aaron Hills, it's just like, oh my gosh, they can capture two a little bit or they can capture a whole eight a little bit better. I think just looking out to like where that far side

of the property where I guess they bought the old public course that was there. And, you know, a lot of the spectators will kind of enter there. I mean, this is such a big, big property. I mean, it's gotta be a few miles out to that side of it. And it's kind of, you know, dips down and then back up. And so I think you get grandstands and you get galleries

and those flags blowing in the wind. And this is going to look like, I'm almost jealous of like, my son, Freddy's eight, he's just getting into golf. And this being one of the first major championships that he really is intent to watch because he's just getting into watching it with me on TV and like this being his His impression of what a US Open is is freaking cool And I think that that's gonna like come through on TV and and just I don't know It's like man like we're doing it right. This is this is as excited as I've been for US Open in a decade So hell yeah TC. Let's go. All right, I'm gonna let you go. Now you got a busy week up there in New York, but appreciate

the thoughts here. I really wish we would have filmed your round instead of my round at Oakmont because you played great round of golf. Maybe you like the course more than I do. If you haven't checked out that Instagram real all 88 of my shots are public and out there because I had a had a nightmare of a day but I greatly look forward to the US Open next, can't believe it's next week. And stick around here,

we're gonna chat with Jeff Hall here shortly. No Lang Up is brought to you by FanDuel. Every swing, every putt, every heart-stopping finish, FanDuel keeps you locked in with PGA Tour action like never before. Because right now, all customers get a 25% live profit boost for the RBC Canadian Open on the third and fourth round this weekend. Use your boost on anything from closest to pin to outright

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I'd say previously, early on in my career, it was, hey, here's where we're going, ops guys, and everybody figure it out. And fortunately, we've got away from that. And a golf course may be great, but can you make it work operationally? That's certainly a very key component. And obviously right now with our current strategic approach of getting way out with US Open sites, that's been great for many of our other championships, being able to leverage the US Open along that player journey that, uh, that John Bodenhammer talked about that day, uh, from the juniors to the amateurs to the cup matches to the US Open.

It's changed quite a bit. When you talk about, when you get to the highest level of the, the men's US Open, the, which is the, the probably the, I would venture to say the strongest test of golf anywhere in the world. Only a certain number of venues put the, I'd say the fear of God into you when you stand up on certain shots and hit them. I certainly experienced it on that day. I'm just kind of, I'm curious, we've all heard the phrase, we're not trying to humiliate the best golfers in the world. We're trying to identify them. I'm curious how you would define the modern US Open test. What is it and what separates it out from what we see week to week and even different

from what we see in other major championships? I think the goal, if we're going to the right venues, which we have been blessed with many really, really good venues, the goal is really to test every aspect of a player's game. It's not just about the physical ability to hit a shot from 178 yards. There are lots of guys in the world, not just on tour, that can play a golf shot from 178 yards. There are lots of guys in the world, not just on tour, that can play a golf shot from 178 yards. But can you do it with greens that are quite firm? Can you do it when the margin of error left and right is pretty finite? When 10 feet above the hole is no good. How many times do you play when 10 feet away

from the hole is no good? Well, at a US Open, 10 feet in the wrong spot can be no good. So it's testing all aspects. Can they drive the golf ball properly, play from the fairway? Obviously the modern game has changed some of that equation a little bit and I'd say that we've been trying to get our arms around.

How do we get back to making sure there is that premium on driving the golf ball? But driving the golf ball is important, recovery is important. Deft putting touch is important. And yet and to do all of that, we got to get the golf course pretty close to the edge. But what we've tried to do in recent time is be near enough to the edge that we can see it, but not let a gust Wynn blow us over that edge, but even the bunkers,

if we talk about that for a minute, it shouldn't be a situation where when the ball's in the air, the player is rooting for the ball to go in the bunker. Negative, Ghost Rider, that's just not what we want. I would like to think that when the player goes into the bunker, the lie dictates what they can do with it, not they can go on the bunker and do whatever it is they want with the

ball. Now, they're supremely talented. And you really can't play defense against their abilities. I mean, they are that good. But let's let them react to what they get. I think there was, I read somewhere many years ago, old Tom Morris once said, "'Bunkers are not places of pleasure.'" And you know, that's what it should be. It used to be a hazard, with the new rules now, the terminology, but again, it's all those things combined.

And then I think you take into the pressure of what you're playing for and put that all in the pot, stir it around. And I would argue the names on our trophy identify, we've identified a lot of the world's best players. So I want to talk a little bit about rough in general. There's going to be a lot of rough at Oakmont. Rough has been synonymous with the US Open for many years. And I think I want to know how your understanding of how that challenges players maybe potentially has evolved over time.

Because I think for a long time, the understanding, at least for me, and I think for a lot of people was that thick, rough, and narrow fairways tested accuracy. I think we've seen several instances of that where we've learned that's not necessarily the case. I'd say Bryson at Wingfoot kind of was a wake up call for all of us to say, well, if it's narrow and everybody ends up in the rough, the distance factor is going to be the strongest factor and you just want to be as far down there if you're going to be in the rough anyways. Yet if you make it too wide, then the bombers are just going to be able to bomb it all over the place without fear of it.

I'm really curious to hear how you think Oakmont splits that gap. How do you split that gap, Juan? And how are you trying to do that with this championship? We've certainly tried to return to preparing and presenting the golf courses the way the architect intended for them to be prepared. There was a period there in the 50s, 60s, maybe even to the 70s where it was almost a cookie cutter US Open. We took our setup and put it on every golf course

at the expense of covering bunkers and really eliminating some of the strategy to playing golf course. When the architect spent a great deal of time designing a golf course from a strategic standpoint. Now, the game has evolved, our setups have evolved, and you're right, I mean, Bryson did, he was the only guy under par at Wingfoot,

so I would say Wingfoot did its job, but there were people who were aghast that he finished under par, and obviously, nearer to the hole is better than farther from the hole if you're gonna be in the rough, especially if you're big and strong and can get the golf ball up there. I don't think anybody would argue he pitched and putt in beautifully that, especially that round, but even that week. So it wasn't just a one club show, but your point is not lost.

I just, the way to make it happen, I guess, is to make sure the rough, you can't absolutely, you just can't play from it. But seven inches tall and you can't play from it. I'm not sure that really qualifies as golf. I mean, you and I might have as much of a chance as the best players in the world to chop the ball back out into the fairway from very exceedingly long rough. And at what point is that a test of a player's skill, I think is the question that, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. We have used graduated rough since 2006. That was the first year that I got involved with Set Up with the US Open. Mike Davis asked me to be his kind of wingman and have been doing it ever since. And you know, that was an interesting approach. If you miss it just a little,

because that was what we always heard. You know, I missed the fairway and the intermediate by two steps and I'd get the same deal as the guy that's missed by 10 yards further right of me. Or even worse, I'm a real straight driver of the golf ball. I've missed two fairways by a total of two yards and the guy I'm playing with has hit it outside the ropes. Oh, now that part I can't equate. You know, there's just not much we can do with that. It's all. And now that part I can't equate. You know, there's just not much we can do with that. It's, unless we do pay per view, we're not going to be able to sort that out. But

I do think we're going to see this at at Oakmont. We are not going to experiment or not experiment. We're not going to implement graduated rough this year. When we looked at each hole on a hole by hole basis, we just didn't see a single hole that truly needed that. Now we will maintain the rough. Gosh, it hasn't stopped raining up here since you guys left for media day. It has not stopped raining up here. It's been brutal. I mean, I think if you're quiet, you can hear, you can hear the rough growing out there at Oakmont.

I am very confident Mike McCormick and team will have plenty of rough for us. How often we'll have to hopefully it's dry, how often we'll have to cut it. We're gonna wait and see when we get there during advance week as to how actively it's growing. We'll have to keep an eye on it. But at some point we will give the rough mowers, you know, the rest of the week off, I'm sure. But I you know, I like, what are your thoughts? How do you how would you? I'm not sure. I mean,

it's hard. It's really hard. And it's because I do think that there is an element of testing a player skill with with an element of rough because I would consider myself a very, very solid golfer, but I don't drive it very great, especially right now. And I had one of the worst days of golf I've ever had at Oakmont. But it was like, the question was clear. It was like, hey, and the answer I should say the answer was clear, like, hey, dude, you're not good enough. What do you want me to say here? Like, you're not good enough. What do you want me to say here?

Like, you're not good enough. So it felt fair, yet the balance I find sometimes between fair and good test and the most entertaining style of golf, because there should be an element of skill, I think, in playing out of the rough. Yeah, you know? And that's really what the graduated rough was intended.

I mean, if we just use round numbers, you had a one and a half inch intermediate, you know, the players still have pretty good control, maybe not complete control, but pretty good control of the golf ball. Three inches of rough, I don't know, maybe six, seven out of 10 times they could advance the ball up to the green. And, you know know let's let the architecture and gravity work and see where the ball goes. You get to the next level of rough where it's five plus inches you know that might only be three out of ten times that they could think about getting the ball up there by the by the green or to the

green. So there's certainly an element of chance but I would say with with the weather we've had and the way they've maintained things at Oakmont, there's not going to be a tremendous inconsistency in the rough. Maybe you catch a little patch of poana and it might not be quite as high as the bluegrass, but there's not a lot of those patches either. Well, I think it's also, if you could guarantee firm and fast conditions and some wind, you don't need rough, you don't need thick rough, I would say because if you end up in that rough, you can't get near pins, you are going to pay a punishment. And what I really respect and love about Oakmont is the tilt, the

camber and whatnot of the greens and the severity of what's around the greens, whether how the bunkers cut into the greens, the difficulty of the slopes on the edge of the bunkers, the way that balls can nestle up against lips in the greens, whether how the bunkers cut into the greens, the difficulty of the slopes on the edge of the bunkers, the way that balls can nestle up against lips in the bunker, they don't all filter to the same spots, there's so much challenge around all that. And if I could pick on the most recent major championship in Quail Hollow, there wasn't that balance, especially because those bunkers

were designed to filter the ball into the bottom of those bunkers, they weren't especially deep, and they didn't present especially challenging shots. So, you know, if you're off by a little bit on some of these shots into the greens in Oakmont, you are gonna be presented with especially challenging shots pretty much regardless of the conditions because it's gonna be fast enough. If you're above some of these holes

and you have a bad lie around the greens, you're not gonna be able to stop the ball. So that's kind of what I get at with like, I want the opportunity for that to be the level of mistake instead of watching guys chop out of six inch rough, which is not what you're talking about. But I think some people listening at home, they just tune in and watch the US they just want to see rough. That's where I think Oakmont is a weird. Yeah,

weirdly good center spot, I think, for all types of golf fans. If you love thick rough, like Oakmont's going to have a lot of that. I don't love thick rough, but Oakmont's got so much stuff that I do like that I'm really excited for this championship. I feel like it's a very good happy medium for a lot of golf fans. You make an interesting point, Chris, about the bunkers. It might be the most visible element of the restoration with respect to, shall we say,

player commentary during the week. When you file an entry for the US Open this year, or any year we go to Oakmont, you know the greens are gonna be fast. And there's a pretty good chance it's gonna be rough. I mean, those are kind of givens. But the bunkers, through the years, had evolved into the type of bunker you're speaking of at the PGA, where the sand dam just keeps building up,

and the bunkers, big high faces, and the bunkers would filter to the bottom, filter to the bottom. Well, now with that original type bunker that phones had put in there, which is very similar to the Ross bunker, that flat bunker, you're right, they get up near the front lip, especially the fairway bunkers, they get up near the front lip. And yet the lips aren't nearly as high as they were. And I remember visiting with some of the members there. They were saying, no, these bunkers, they're gonna be too easy.

They're gonna be too easy. They're just too easy. And everybody, a couple other folks were saying, well, tell me how much lower is your handicap as a result of these easy bunkers that we've got? Yeah, it hasn't changed. Okay, you know, onto the next question. Well, that's what fairway bunkers

and greenside bunkers are like. The very clear message to me was don't hit it here. Like do not hit it here. Like you're gonna have a bad time if you do. And like you said to that point of you never want to see a player rooting for a ball to get into a bunker. That's yeah, that's a pet peeve. Not gonna see a lot of now. One other thing I noticed. So I like I pretend to tend to like a lot of variety off the tee for what kind of misses you're going to have. And I always say like a weird,

good middle spot is TPC Scottsdale in the PGA Tour in terms of you can get a sandy lie, you can get near a bush, you can need to get some creativity of a lot of different kinds. And obviously you can't just like pick up that particular style. You can't pick a Pinehurst style and just take that to the Northeast, all that to say. But one thing I did find especially unique that it's not just rough on repeat are some of these ditches at Oakmont. And some of these, they're nasty.

And so I don't know, I can't really describe why I like this, but I tend to like when the size of the punishment is not necessarily corresponded to the size of the mist. To your point earlier, saying some guys were getting just barely into the rough, ending up in thick rough, blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, there are some of these ditches that are very close to these fairways. If you miss, I think it's the 15th hole, if I'm thinking of properly just to the left of that, you're going to be

in a ditch. You would know where they're all located better than I would. But I saw some of the second hole, especially. I saw some of those and I was like, holy crap, some guys are maybe going to have some things to say about missing a fairway by a couple of yards, but having that level of punishment. Can you talk a bit about the balance of that kind of punishment?

I think too, Chris, imagine, is that any different than the 18th hole at the player players course? Right. There's just no water. That's all if if they were full of water, I think they would. Well, geez, I'm in the water. You know, I got to play.

I can't usually play the ball out of the water. And sometimes water is very nearby. The the family 13 at Augusta. You could have your feet in the water and you're playing a shot that tie and dry or vice versa. But when you can maybe see the ball and you may be down on one knee and standing on one leg and can I get it out of here?

Or should I just use the rules and get out of here? Yeah, we'll see. We'll see how. What's the great line from from Top Gun? Is your ego going to write a check? Your body can't cash. Right. I mean, that's kind of what happens with some of those when you can see your ball. Therefore, I should be able to hit it. Well, that may not be the case, but there's no doubt phones put these in, even though they may not carry the case, but there's no doubt phones put these in even though they

may not carry water on a daily basis, although they might be carrying water right now. But then again, too, you know, in 1903, how else did and you know, drainage system, they're moving water through gravity. And this was, let's get the water over to this ditch and get it out of the way. Two is a great example because I, I, okay, I'm going to play away from the bunkers on the right and, Ooh, I can't play too far away from those bunkers on the right. And, and I think that's, that's part of it. Yeah. Here we go. If you're watching this on YouTube, I'm pulling up some slides here of, of some holes that Jeff went through on our media day that I want to talk through as well. But yeah, it's,

it comes right into the line of play that ditch on the left. And as I understand, there was, this was part of Gil Hans's work that he did in the restoration, is that correct? Yeah, the interesting, fascinating thing, oftentimes when you hear about restorations, you find drawings from a given year and you, all right, we're going to put the golf course back to 1912 just to throw something out. Gil had free reign with the membership said, Let's make a best of kind of a greatest hits album. 1903, when phones laid it out and built it through 1946.

And he and his team tried to find the best version of each hole. So, yes, some things got a little bit closer. The second hole here, and I wish I was able to have an absolute overhead on this because it would be so much easier. But you could see that drive zone in 2016. It's kind of a uniform width pretty much up to that little pot bunker short of the green, just 30 yards short of the green. Now there are pockets of fairway that have been restored around the first set of drive zone bunkers,

and then there's another drive zone bunker that's kind of a bit of a stop sign. So you could play into three different pockets depending on how much risk you wanna take with your tee shot, and maybe as illustrated by the red dot, which is really a back left hole location, that's a new hole location that's available to us that I'm telling you.

And it was, did you, I think you guys may have played it that day. We were back middle kind of in that little tongue there. Yeah. You stand in the fairway back there and it absolutely looks like whoever set the hole did not hit the green. That's something that I think, you know, a little design technique and is especially a restoration technique with a lot of what's going on

is having little sections of greens jutt out into rough areas or bunker areas, or however you want to describe it, having bunker areas are rough cut into the greens seems to me to be one of the most interesting ways to test the best players in the world when they don't have a clear designated bailout spot to go I think to Harbor town of why that golf course is able to host you know the best players in the

world at the length that it's at very frequently and I think about like that 13th green just it's not around green. It is almost like a, it looks like a fidget spinner almost with the with the three different sections of it. And you can make some really difficult hole locations for some of the best players in the world. And that's where I've seen so many will go through some of these. But that's exactly what it looks like you guys are planning to do this this year.

I listen, then you don't need to go Dean Smith and go four corners. I love it when don't need to go Dean Smith and go four corners. I love it when we can find a really interesting whole location that's a central whole location that the ninth green has a couple that are in the middle of the green, but there's a lot going on around it. It looks very inviting, but if you don't hit it three feet, you've got some putts from 20 feet that may break in two different directions. But this is wonderful because in 2016, we were in that back central area twice. And then over there in that

little left against the, well, I'm saying left, golfers right by those bunkers over there twice, because those were the only places where golf balls would come to stop. They would actually stop. So now with the sides of the greens that have been lowered by Gill because of the sand dams, edges matter along the greens. So a ball with any pace is going to tumble over the edge as opposed to go up the slope and come back to the center of the green. But this is going to be a dandy hole location. You can bet the egg money will be using this one.

I'm excited for that one. So from what we heard, it sounds like green speed plans. I believe the number that was shared was 15 on the stimp meter is the aspiration if all goes well. Can you, there's a lot of tilt on these greens. There's a lot going on with these greens. None of them are flat, if I remember right. And it's not like, there's a lot of tilt on these greens. There's a lot going on with these greens. None of them are flat, if I remember right. And it's not like, it's not like there are just humps and bumps everywhere. I just, it felt like it's what I love about courses

up in the Northeast is they blend in so well with the land. And part of the big challenge is just dealing with these heavily sloped in one direction greens. What's the relationship like between the green speed that challenges pros, yet also wanting to be able to use all the parts of the greens, sloped in one direction greens. What's the relationship like between the green speed that challenges pros yet also wanting to be able to use all the parts of the greens, all the whole locations that you want that

if you get them too fast, you can't use this special pin, blah, blah, blah. How are you guys viewing that balance? We want to be able to use all the unique whole locations at Oakmont. And yet we also want to present Oakmont in the way that Oakmont is presented pretty much every day.

I would say that you would see green speeds at or around 15 first thing in the morning as we're out doing setup, knowing they're going to settle back a little bit. And we'd be thrilled if we can play golf for most of the day in the mid to upper 14s. That would be our, that would be really our, our target. We know we can use all the whole locations at those speeds. And we've, we've worked really close with Mike McCormick and Devin Gee, the golf professional there. We may know the U S open really well, but we never know the golf course as well as they do. Sure. So why wouldn't we ask for their thoughts and points of view on, on these things? And, uh, um, they've been really helpful in, yeah, I know that looks like it

worked, but I'd be careful with that. Or, Hey, believe it or not, this one does work that we would have dismissed. You know, having Scott Langley and Brent Paladino on our team, both really good players, obviously Scott played on tour, on tour in the corn fairy tour. And I know you guys know Scott pretty well. You know, that's a good, it's good to have them out there, hitting putts too, yeah.

100%. Well, if you don't mind, I'm gonna go through some of these other, whole changes and, or I guess if people, I doubt people have memorized what Oakmont looked like in 2016, but in case you're wanting to look out for a couple things that will be a little bit different this time around, this is the seventh hole you were telling us about.

Yeah, and this is one where I think the driving is really different. You can see with the slide on the left, again, it's like a bowling alley from where the fairway begins up to those bunkers, short or long, the exam question is very, very obvious, drive it in the fairway begins up to those bunkers, you know, short or long with it. The exam question is very, very obvious. Drive it in the fairway or you're in trouble. Now in 2025, the bunkers on the golfer's right have remained by and large in that location, but the bunkers on the golfer's left have been pushed back a little closer to the tee, and there's a semi-cross bunker.

And that cross bunker from the back edge of the US Open tee is in the 295 range. And we know the tour average is 286 for Kerry. So I think what we will likely do there is slide the T markers pretty far up on that T, 10, 12 yards or whatever we need to do, depending on the wind, and give the guys a choice. Hey, do you want to take on the cross bunker, get it over that and have a really good look at the putting green? Or maybe I don't want to take on quite that much risk and I'll drive

it to the right because that fairway at the 300 yard mark now is almost 50 yards wide and just drive it short of the bunkers golfers right in the drive zone. I'll be in short grass but I won't be able to see what I'm doing. And I think just a really unique strategic element of a hole that really didn't have as much t shot strategy previously. So what I'm hearing though, tying into a question I would have is what I'm hearing, all right, tour average is 286. Bryson DeChambeau doesn't average 286. Very McElroy doesn't

average 286. How do youIlroy does an average 286. How do you balance the setup of a golf course so that the obstacles in the way aren't not even considered for them, right? If a basic math equation based on what you're just saying, if I'm Bryson, I'm hitting it over all the trouble, I'll go find it up there and we'll figure it out from there. Is this one of many examples like that on the golf course

or what's stopping Bryson from putting up that strategy to play? Well, listen, I think there's probably, you know, half a dozen, eight players that even if we tipped that hole, don't look at the cross bunker. And I don't know if you want to design the golf course so that in all cases, you're taking them out of play and then just making it much easier for everybody else.

Now, I don't believe we have a slide that I didn't cover it during media day, but the 12th hole is just the opposite. Much more difficult for the long hitter with the pitch of that fairway than for the average hitter on tour where there's a little bit more room to drive the golf ball. So it works in reverse. As we both know, distance has always been an advantage in golf from the first time it was played till this week. Well, maybe Colonial may not be the right course, certainly at Oakmont.

If you can use distance properly, it's always an advantage. But I think we'll have enough holes at Oakmont, 15, another one. The longer down range you go, the tougher it is. You get up over the knob, you can't see where you're going. There'll be opportunities for the average player to have maybe a leg up and the longer player to have to think and vice versa. I don't know. It's kind of like trying to come up with whole locations where you're going to

get nine back, nine front, nine, right, nine left. It didn't going to happen. Uh, what about the eighth hole famed par three longest part three in, in, in U S open history, maybe the world's history for all we know. Tell us about this. You know, but from its inception, it, it was intended to be a long par three and you know, the rest of us have to hit head covers into par threes. Why can't the best

players in the world have to hit some head covers into par threes? But I think what's happened here is now the, okay, I'm just going to play five yards short of the front edge and have a fair amount of width to play to and I'll just try to chip it up and in. Because as greens go, there's not a lot going on with this green, which there shouldn't be with this type of hole. But now, with the way that the large bunker on the left has been, it hooks around a little bit more and the little extension of the new reinstated bunker there, it's tightened up that approach a little bit where you've got to be a little bit more precise.

To me, the thing that might even be more impactful is the loss of those back two right bunkers. To our comments earlier, getting the bunker. They get down into that area now where there's you know that five inch rough. Okay, they play it like a bunker shot with as much skill as they have with as much repetition in preparing. Okay, they probably have a pretty dependable understanding of what's going to happen, but not as dependable as playing out of a bunker. And we'll see how that works. I don't want to hear any complaining from any players about the length of this hole. If it was a par four, every, it changes, nothing about the championship at all.

Still the lowest score wins. It just changes whether it's a birdie or a par, and it's all about the concept of the hole. You can make it a par five or a part two. It will be the exact same. It doesn't matter. It just makes the standard bearer have to work harder. Exactly. That's all it is. That's all it is. the exact same. Doesn't matter. It just makes the standard bearer have to work harder. Exactly, that's all it is. That's all it is, just play the hole. So the 10th hole, pretty somewhat radical change here with this one, with the restoration of the ditch

that runs across the fairway. Yeah, really, really neat. But listen, it's from the very back of the US Open T, it's 350 to cover the ditch, which obviously is a long way, but it does play with the wind if we get a typical southwest breeze. And it plays downhill, probably eight yards, maybe 10 yards. But if we slide the T up a little bit, does somebody, do you attempt somebody to try something that they probably can do, but should they? Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And we'll see what they do. I also think the ditch, it requires thought now on your layup.

You know you've got a boundary out there that you can't, it's not, well, I'll hit three wood and if it chases an extra 15 yards in 2016, well, so what? You don't want to do that here with that ditch coming across. So again, I love that Rory McIlroy quote, we all struggle with options and I don't know, this may not be an option for many guys, but certainly the club they're going to use, it's downhill, the firmness of the fairway will impact. It's a more thoughtful layup shot than it was. Yeah, it turns this hole is just straight away, which is going to be pound driver for all these guys into, can you control the distance of

your club that you want off the tee? And this, I mean, there's just there's so many elements of challenge already still within this. I mean, the ball is going to be above your feet in the fairway hitting into a green that slopes away from you and right to left. So you're going to have to hit a little fade held up against, you know, if you really want to hold this green, especially with that pin on the right and the wind out of the right.

When we played it like it was a really I hit this fairway and I was like, I mean, I'm making bogey because it was a really, really challenging approach shot anyways. That's the layers of, of Oakmont that I like kind of forcing that back into their hands. As I said earlier, it's, it's not just about physically executing. And I happen to believe, you know, this will be my fourth US Open at at Oakmont as a member of the staff, third involved with setup. I happen to believe Oakmont is the best mental test of golf we have in the US Open. It's just, it just doesn't stop coming and you're exa... My first 13 years on staff I

was in the scoring area at the US.S. Open, listening to 156 players sing the praises of the USGA. And, you know, when they came in, they were exhausted from from the requirements of a U.S. Open. But there's this place is you've got to have incredible focus. It exists to host this tournament, honestly. It's too hard otherwise. It literally exists to host this tournament. How about a one golf course architect and we're going back for the 10th time for the national open? Pretty amazing.

A couple slight changes here on the Long Par 3, 16th hole as well. Yeah, the coffin bunker as it's referred to now on the left side, right up there very beginning you can have some really awkward stances right there where the bunker is adjacent to the approach. You could have some really awkward stances depending on where you're trying to play the golf ball onto the green and then taking out that bunker front right. You give even tight grass down there. I think it would be a difficult pitch.

I mean, yeah, okay, they'd get some spin on it, but they're not getting any spin on it from the grass down in there right now. And so you miss a short and right. You got hit it hard enough to get it all the way up there. And yeah, and this green's got so much tilt. You've got to hit it hard enough to get it all the way up there. And this green's got so much tilt. Another wonderful use of the land by phones with that approach to get it to that. You can see the whole location's well right in the 2025 photograph, but you don't have

to hit it there. You can just hit it left, but now you do have that coffin bunker hanging there waiting for you to take a big first bounce or there's a lot of strategy in that a lot of different club, depending on where you want to land this. If you want to land it short, your line's going to be different than if you want to land it all the way up onto the green and, and it's a long team area too, where we can, we can really maneuver the T markers as we wish, even if we've got two whole locations that are fairly near

each other. And last one, the short drivable par four 17th hole. What's, what are we, what will people notice is different about this one? Well, this, this is drivable all the time. As much as I wish they wouldn't end on Thursday, Friday to help us with pace of play. It certainly could be. But boy has a 71st hole.

It's such a contrast to the other if you start at the 15th tee, a really big par four there, demanding par three on 16. And you know it's waiting for you on 18. And then here you have this little 312 yard hole that cost players a chance to win. You think of Jim Furyk and the chance, he's always played well here, but had a chance and maybe try to do something that is not vintage Jim Furyk drive the green and made a bogey. You could obviously lay it out to the right and play a wedge shot in there. It may not be the scariest wedge shot you'll ever play, but it's certainly not a layup.

But I think you'll see a lot of guys try to drive it between the short bunkers left and then that first kind of back left bunker, if you will will and try to drive it up in the air. If it's in the approach, great. If it's in the rough, I'll pitch it and take my chances of chasing it to whatever whole location is available. But there's enough going on in that green that that's easier said than done in a number of cases. And obviously that front right bunker the first one there big mouth as they call it and you know as well as anybody if if there's a bunker that's got a name you want no part of it I mean that's just that's just the deal yeah it's such a great little twist at the at this end is this little

yeah there's a wonderful grandstand that's going to be kind of over there in the neighbor and that area of that rain shelter that you see in the photo. If you got up in that back top corner, you could watch the whole finish through the tee shots on 18. So that would be a good run for anybody listening. That's going to be there. Get there early. Good to know.

Good to know what, uh, any, any final parting thoughts, uh, as thoughts, as we head towards this barreling towards the U S open, anything that we didn't cover this week, did you think is of, of import to, to our listeners? You know, I, our, our goal in all of this, I mean, we listen to folks that do setup. We take our, our job very seriously. But it's not about us. If we do our job properly, it's about the golf course and the best players in the world doing what they do best.

We try to present the stage for the actors to go do their thing and really do not want to be part of the story. But that said, we need to be respectful of the venues we go to and they all have their own personality. And this phone's personality of the most difficult golf course on the planet from its inception is so embraced by that membership. They're proud of their golf course as they should be, but that's what Oakmont has been forever.

And fast greens, rough, just challenging golf from beginning to end. We want the players to get every club in the bag dirty. And then there's that mental part of it. So you're gonna have to be in control of your physical game, your mental game, your emotional game. And if any of those wander or you're just not on, Oakmont's gonna expose you in many different ways. But very excited for the 10th playing.

I'm laughing because, I'm just laughing cause yeah, the Henry Phones quote you referred to, let the clumsy, the spineless, the alibi artist stand aside. A shot poorly played should be a shot irrevocably lost. That was exactly how I felt playing that golf course. I was clumsy, spineless. I don't know what an alibi artist is, but I was one of those probably as well. And it was,

you know, if you misplayed a shot, you did not, I did not, I did not recover from it, but it's very hard to recover. Like you will lose maybe not a full shot, but you will lose strokes with your mistakes on this golf course. And that's, I think that's the mark of a good challenge. Couldn't agree. And with my involvement at Oakmont, we certainly saw a very firm Oakmont in 07 and five overwinds. We saw a softer Oakmont in 16, four underwinds. Oakmont's hard no matter what. It's just a different kind of hard. If we get, you know, Mother Nature gets a seat at the table and right now she's watering the heck out of the rough, but I certainly hope it changes in a couple of weeks. Well, a lot of rain is going

to present a different kind of hard, right? Because that's, we got the wet, thick rough and that's worse than, that's a lot worse than dry, wispy, long rough. we got the wet, thick, rough, and that's a lot worse than dry, wispy, long rough. I mean, it was just all encompassing and swallowing. So anyways, I could take up a lot of your time telling the tales of the 88 strokes I took to get around Oakmont. But Jeff, we really appreciate your time. Best of luck with the championship this year. Hope to do it again in the future. Thank you. My pleasure. For Fandl, must be 21 and older in President-select states. Opt-in required bonus issued is non-moderable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amounts see terms at sportsbook.fandl.com. Fandl is offering

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