No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1031: NLU Personal Golf Spotlight - DJ

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

It’s DJ’s turn to step into the Personal Golf spotlight as we discuss the transition from Florida to Wisconsin golf, enjoying the game regardless of score, gear updates after a recent fitting with Titleist and DJ’s personal top ten favorite golf courses. Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠⁠⁠ Support our sponsors: ⁠USGA⁠ ⁠The Stack If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the No Laying Up podcast. Welcome to our spotlight series. It's the fourth one we've done, fifth one we've done. We're trying to get to one of these a month. Major season got very busy, but we are going to turn the tide on Mr.

Dennis Pajowski here shortly, but I'm joined by my guy, Mr. TC. Hello TC. Hello. And you know, hello to all, all my ESF folks out there. Got my, got my big letter hat on. That is the biggest of the big letter hats. I believe big Randy is here. Hello, Mr. Big. Hi guys. Excited to dive inside DJ's mind and see what's going on in his personal golf game. I always feel like there are a few galactic brain ideas. I'm sure I'm scared to get inside this brain and that is the man of the hour. Mr. DJ pie. How's he? Hello. Hi, man. Greetings guys. Good to good to be with you. I'm just going to, you know, a big proponent of just saying what you're feeling. I'm feeling a little nervous for this one.

I don't know why I shouldn't, I shouldn't be nervous. We're just talking, talking golf, but I don't know where this is going to go. I'm much more comfortable, I think, asking the questions that I am answering the question. So, uh, you guys take it, take it easy. I don't think we are going to take it easy. I think we're going to put your feet to the fire. We're going to make you answer for some things, maybe just ask your opinions on some things and, kind of where you're, you're, uh, you know, where your golf game is headed, what the future looks like. But I do know the future of American golf is now. And this was launched in 2023.

This is the US National Development Program. It's the United States' first unified pathway designed to guide top junior players all the way to the highest levels of the sport, from competitive junior golf to amateur and eventually professional play. The USGA is helping chart that journey. The program identifies, trains, develops funds, and supports the nation's most promising young talent,

regardless of their cultural, geographic, or financial background. It's all part of the USGA's commitment to keeping American golf at the forefront of the global game. With national junior teams for boys and girls, an elite amateur team and 17 state junior teams now in place, plus a national young professional team on the way. The impact is already being felt and in 2025 alone, the USGA awarded over a hundred grants

to junior golfers in need, helping cover the costs of coaching, travel, tournaments and more. Very cool. Talent is everywhere and opportunity should be to learn more at usga.org slash USNDP. That's usga.org slash us and DP. That's usga.org slash us and DP. All right, we're about the world. It's crazy. We're coming.

We're coming. A lot of player captains coming to now. We're not doing that today here guys. We're about halfway through almost halfway through the year. I would say not halfway through the golf season for my guy up in Wisconsin, but what are we working with? What's the current level set of your game handicap? Where are you at right now? I, I'm at an 8.4 handicap right now, which I don't know if you guys were necessarily

expecting to hear something that starts with an eight, but that's kind of the way it's been going. I'm going to attribute that to just a crippling level of indecision that I feel on the golf course. And also just a little bit of a new dad tax, I think on that handicap. It's, they don't usually go down in that first season from what I hear. So I'll throw it a little bit both ways, but yeah, 8.4 is having a hard time scoring these days guys. And I don't really know totally why that is. I feel like I'm in a Gatches Kim 80 plus or something like that. Well, Dej, I had heard a bunch of rumors that you had picked up a bunch of distance and swing speed and all that. Is that not flowing

through to the scorecard? No, I would say yes, that's true. I just haven't really gotten to a rhythm yet this year I feel like you know It's been a very busy year both on the personal side of things on the business side of things a lot of like It's both like a lot of work stuff going on but also not the same kind of like hey Let's go on the road for a week and play like 13 rounds of golf that we have done in the past You know It's a lot of like we're popping in golf that we have done in the past. You know, it's a lot of like we're popping in somewhere and we're maybe

playing two rounds, maybe playing three rounds. And I just haven't had a ton of time to play at home. So I don't know, just to haven't really gotten into a rhythm. And then I think you start kind of like seeing that number go the wrong way. I don't know if you guys feel this way with your own handicaps, but you start seeing that number go the wrong way. And then you just grip the steering wheel a little too tight and that doesn't really lead to good golf. And it kind of just, yeah, it's just been a little stressful, I think, as far as getting

the pencil on the scorecard lately. Just not a lot of good results. Wildly shitty winter and spring. Awful. Awful. Was absolutely chomping at the bit to get out in the spring. Like I don't know. So I, for those that don't know,

I grew up in the Midwest, moved to Florida for like 12 years and then moved back to the Midwest, living here in Wisconsin. We've been here for about three years now. And so I kind of was tweaking myself out a little bit this whole spring, just like, man, were the springs always this shitty?

Or was like, did I forget what happened? Was this one exceptionally bad? And then I had to keep pressing a bunch of my friends who've lived here forever. And they're like, no, no, it was that bad. This was a really, really bad spring. So we got midway through like, I mean, even a couple of weeks into June and it was still just like high fifties, just like, yeah, it was weird, weird, weird stuff, rainy, just shitty, shitty weather. But we're, and now of course it, you know, flies the other way. And it's 98 degrees and it's not great golf weather there either. But we had like two weeks of just like really nice spring. So, you know,

maybe, maybe I didn't appear to be at the roost major last weekend, but yeah. So when you show up to the course right now, I know you joke that you're not making any putts. Is it the putter? Like, what, what do you have the least amount of confidence in right now? How would you like triage what's going on with your current game? That's a good question. You know, what's almost kind of frustrating about it, Randy is like, I feel like, I feel like it's, it's inconsistent. It like, it's inconsistent things. I think if it was one thing, I would be like, oh,

we'll just work on that one thing. But instead, it's one day you can't make putts, one day you can't chip it, one day you can't hit irons, one day you can't. It's just like, that's where I keep coming back to rhythm. I can think of one round of golf this year where I felt like I had actual rhythm and gotten to a little bit of a flow. And like outside of that, it's just like, yeah, I think it's just thinking too much about the golf swing and we can get into that later maybe, but I'm just having a really hard time not playing golf swing, I guess would be the way to say it succinctly. And when that's the case for me, it's like, I'm thinking golf

swing with the driver and then I'm thinking golf swing with the irons. And now I'm really thinking golf swing with the chipping and the putting is kind of like, well, if we have it, you know, we have it for double. We're fine. Yeah, basically. And so all of that kind of stacks up to like, it feels like we're heading in the right direction weirdly, but I also don't, it hasn't clicked yet. If that, if that makes sense. So it's kind of like, I feel like all the pieces are like on the floor, just kind of staring at me. And we've, we've kind of identified a lot of problems.

We just haven't necessarily like clicked all the pieces together yet. Do you have direction? Like, because I, I, I feel like you have been trying to solve your swing without much direction for quite some time. And I feel like not to just distill it down to something so simple, but I feel like if you had once a month lessons, you would get so amped to get into practice to know what you're working on. Like, I don't get the sense that you know what you're like, what the problem is, and

you know what you should be doing to work on it. I'm in the same boat, but I don't know if that's something you need to hear right now. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate your bravery in saying that, of course, as always. But let me just linger on that. I was trying to fix my own swing for a while because I did have a lesson last year with my guy, Joe Sch Scherer, who's a pro here in Milwaukee. Great, great guy. Great teacher. And I think that that was the first like golf swing, like proper, like come to the range. I'm going to watch. We're going to do a lesson for an hour that I've had since I was probably 10 or 11, like junior golf camp type of stuff. And I think having that long of a just like field player, we'll just figure it out. We're playing enough to get into rhythm.

We're not really getting all that much better. We're not really getting any worse type of plateau that I went on from the time I was probably 20 until I was like 35. When somebody does kind of parachute in and be like, oh, if you want, like here are the answers to the test. You're just going to have to like, like now all of a sudden I've like started thinking about my golf swing for the first time in a really, really long time. And I think that's thrown me for like a big loop. So as much as I think that you're right, like there are underlying problems. Of course, I'm too steep and I'm shut at the top and I know what my first move is. And as much as I am trying, those are obvious things where I've always kind of hovered around

like a six handicap. And it's like, if I ever wanted to get to two or better, it's like, you're going to have to fix these things. But in order to fix those things, it's also like, just going to have to be kind of a Shawshank Redemption, like climbing through, you know, a thousand yards of shit to get there. And I think with the short season, it's just really been like gut check time on like, man, is that really what we want to do? Because I can do it in a net in my garage from, you know, December till, you know, April, May. But like, that's not really the same when you're not seeing the ball fly. It's it is just a little bit of a drill. Like you

have to do this drill over the winter and that takes a certain discipline to. Yeah. And it's just I'm not breaking any news here in saying that like the best rounds of golf that I've ever played in my life are like, maybe I have a feel, but I'm not ever thinking swing thoughts. And a little bit of it has turned into like, don't think about elephants over the ball. You know, like just, Hey, just like, don't think about that swing tip of like trying to get your weight into your left heel and then thinking about where you're releasing it and thinking about your first move being forward and thinking about how you're, you're coming through the ball and thinking about just like, don't think about

that stuff. Like, you know, that that's, you know, that that's what you need to do, but like, just don't think about that. Brandy, am I like, do you know what I'm feeling? I feel you. I actually don't feel you right at this moment, but I feel you. I have certainly been there. I know exactly what you mean. I feel like you just need one kind of trigger thought and then just let it fly. Yeah. And so, it's all, I guess maybe I would flip it to you is like the guy who probably gets the most kind of lessons or like technique out of people in this chat here. Like, how do you deal with that?

Do you feel like you're playing golf swing? Do you like, what percent do you feel like you're playing golf versus playing golf swing? It's really hard to, it's a different answer like now than when I was actually like trying to play competitive golf, which was when I had the time to put in on certain things, it was so fun to just like, hey, here's the answer, like go do it.

And I love the grind on that. Now I just like straight up don't have time. So when I go like, I've gotten maybe two lessons in the last 18 months, maybe, and it's like a tri tree. It's like, Hey, things have gotten so bad. I just need you to tell me like, can you give me like some kind of fix here? So I stopped doing this and then I'll figure the rest out. Yeah. Just give me something and I'll figure the rest out. So it's, it's hard, but you're right. It is,

I guess it's kind of can ladder back up into why you play the game and what you get out of it as well. Like how do you enjoy the game that much more when you are playing it that much better is, you know, I'll let you know when I, when I play better, but yeah, the like it's that's the question that I think I didn't mean to jump right to it, but I think that's the question that I'm that I'm wrestling with is like, what is the goal when I show up to the golf course? Because I think when I was younger, when I had more time to practice, when I had more, I mean, just like physical, I'm not as flexible as probably, not that I was ever some physical specimen, but probably used

to be more flexible, used to have better endurance walking around a golf, used to do like a lot of those things where it's like there was a better canvas probably to work with on improving. And I think when that is the case and when you're playing enough and you can practice enough and you can see tangible results, it is really fun to take on that challenge and work at getting better and just like seeing the results. And now that like, again, we kind of find ourselves in this whatever, like season of life here where everybody's like a little busier and times a little tighter.

And for me, it's like the season's literally just shorter. It's hard to like go to the course and just be pissed about like the number in the last box of the scorecard. But at the same time, that's not really a light switch for me to flip, I don't think. It almost takes work to ignore or change that mindset. It's a headier question than it probably seems. It's not like you can just show up and be like, you know what? Today, I'm just going to enjoy it. Like, that's not really how it works.

It's like a rewiring of, you know, your entire kind of golf experience. And then you ladder in, you know, pull back the curtain, but like you ladder in, like some of the creeping thoughts of like, hey, man, you know, like you do this for a living, you know, like you kind of get clubs for free, you know, you get golf balls for, you know, like people would look at your swing if you wanted them to, you got all like truly no excuses at all. Like why you open the door? Why is open? Yeah. Just got to walk through it. Like I remember this. I don't know if I've talked about it before, but I remember this moment where Neil and I were sitting in the Jack's beach parking lot. It was just like such a

could not have been a more average day. And it was like he shot 85 and I shot like 87. And it was like in a Thursday game or something. And we both like got done. We were so mad and just like, like just kind of pissy. But I got in the car and we're both just like, what are we doing, man? Like what? We got no excuses here. Why are we playing so bad? Like, this is bullshit. Both of us know how to play golf. Both of us have every obstacle removed from playing good golf.

Like, all we got to do is walk through the door. And that's when it was like, you know what? We're going to start practicing more. We're going to hold each other accountable. And we're going to do all this stuff. And it's like, you know, it lasts for a week. And it's just like, all right, man, this really isn't, I'm not a professional golfer. This isn't life or death. Like, you know, I got to do the laundry as much as I got to go like hit balls. Like, let's, let's be

real about what like the priorities are here. It's just a funny point to hit where I feel like I'm at this weird kind of inflection point with my, with my golf game and just trying to figure out what I'm, what I'm trying to get out of it. So I don't know. I don't mean to sit on the therapy couch right away, but it's an interesting conversation. I think. I think that's actually good to like get on the therapy couch early and then we can explore that space. Like, like, I guess my question for you is like, if you had to think of, we'll say like the lot, like pre-kid, like we'll say like the last two years, like what are like your three happiest, like the three times that you've been most happy on the golf course or most fulfilled on the golf course.

Hmm. It's a good question. See if we can fill him. What would you guess it would be while he's thinking, uh, TC, I think back to, um, abandoned trails for sure. That was, yeah. Which has now been like six birdies six years ago now or something crazy. But the one with pooch. No, the one five years ago with Taurus sauce. Yeah. Yeah. Still the low round of my Mr. Kaiser. Yeah. I mean, that mean, that's true. That might've been the peak. This is like the Podrick Harrington

quote. Why don't you just do that every time? I was like, well, no, that was the peak, man. That was it. But I would say like Ocean Dunes, you seem really happy. Loved that. Yeah. So I think, TC, it's funny. I think there's a mix, which I think in a way, almost like speaks to my confusion where it's like, I think if there was a clear cut theme of just like, it's these three things and oh, wow, that's crazy. It was where I played the best. I'd be like, okay, I should practice because that makes, you know, leads to me like being very happy, but it's not. It's a mix of things where it's like, I can remember I shot a really good score at Blue Mound

last year with great people and like had a great time. That was, that was up there. Randy, I think back to our trip to Bandon with Tim and Nick and like had, didn't play great golf, but just like the company and the setting and like the, that was like stress free as good as it gets. It's all I, I'd probably throw, honestly, I'd probably throw the Royal County down round that we just played a couple of weeks ago on that list as well. And again, it was like, I think I just kind of, if I'm looking at like kind of the through line there, I think it is, you know, if I'm looking at my hierarchy of needs here, I think

people and setting is kind of like number one. I think hitting it good enough is number two. Like I don't think the golf shots. Yeah, you don't need to play your best round. Everybody got to experience the golf shots. That's exactly what it is. And there are rounds like I can think of a lot of like Tours sauce rounds where it can get really frustrating, where I'm like, man, I'm probably by all odds only going to play this golf course one time.

And I have no fucking idea where the club face is right now. And I'm punching out on every hole. It's just that's... I feel you, brother. Like I'm not even playing this golf course. Not even playing. And so it's like, I just need to be functional above like, I just need to have something that's like, just, just, you know, give me a shot at like hitting, hitting the shots. What seems like there's another through line too of like exceptional golf courses.

And like, I know setting and people was number one but it also seems like there is something to be said for, you know, Royal County down, band and Blue Mound. Like those are great golf courses. Those are like, yeah, just play world-class golf. Yeah. Well, I'm not, I'm not gonna try to, no, I'm not gonna try to wiggle going to try to, no, I'm not, I'm not going to try to,

to wiggle out of, wiggle out of this because, you know, you know, you know, it's kind of crazy is like, Randy, I almost would throw our day at Hogan park filming strapped as like one of my favorite golf memories. And I literally didn't even hit any shots. And so it's like, there is something to TC. I think there's something to the, like having a great experience, I think is different than like a list of the top 100 golf courses or something like that. I don't get a, like I've gone to really great golf courses and had like an awful time too. Like I don't think that that's necessarily the through line as far as being a guarantee. But I think there is something to the novelty of like, you know,

I would throw in is a place in Southern Wisconsin called Spring Valley is like Langford and Monroe, no bunkers. It like used to be a country club in like the sixties and now it's just kind of an afterthought public golf course a little bit. It doesn't have any money, but it's like a totally unique experience and one that I just like could play out there every day because it's such a fun, just such a fun, different, unique sort of thing. So that's not necessarily like some crazy top 100 thing, but it's a, but it's, but it's unique and distinctive. Yeah. It also has no bunkers, which we'll pull on.

Kind of think about that. So I've played a few rounds with you recently. think about that. So I've played a few rounds with you recently. You mentioned Royal County down. We've played in Milwaukee. I think if I were to give you my assessment from the outside, I feel like you're struggling right now with your driver. And just even knowing if you're going to miss it, it seems like you're not quite sure where you're going to miss your driver. it seems like you're not quite sure where you're going to miss your driver. And the more, I think the more I've thought about it, I think if you,

I think the driver and getting off the tee, if you are struggling there, I think it almost makes golf the most frustrating exercise. Like not truly like not fun. Like I would rather not play golf than go out and have no idea where the driver's going. Yeah. Like I think I would, you know, you can have putting yips, you can have chipping yips, but man, if you can't get off the tee, everything else just is such a slog and a grind and it's so I would quit the game. Yeah.

I'm really kind of a hero if you think about it. We've got to figure out a way. I don't know if you have to bring the, uh, the Moab back, the little feathery, you know, two 40 drive, but somehow I think number one goal from my, from where I sit is like, we got to understand the driver. We got to understand where it's going. And then I think back to assuming we can get to that point is like, I would almost say, man, just go out and like, how many birdies can you make this year?

Like just use that as your North star and like who gives a shit what you score. But man, if you're putting up two, three birdies around, keep track of those. And then my theory would be eventually, everything kind of starts to slot into place, but I feel like you need a goal where it's like, okay, I just doubled that hole, whatever. It's kind of like match play.

Who cares? Like I want to give myself a birdie look on the next hole or like how many birdie looks can I give myself this round to where you're not like fretting about the numbers you're putting on a scorecard. I think totally right. I've tried a couple of these and they have been helpful. And sometimes I just need to remind myself of them. But I always love like if I make a double, Randy, I always love to be kind of net zero doubles and birdies. You know, it's like rather than because I've I've I've entered rounds before and I know Neil loves doing this too, where you're like, all right, perfect game is no doubles, no three putts, like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like up because then you double the second hole and you're like, well, this fucking day is ruined. Like, I guess I'll just get out of here. So I do like the kind of balance of like, all right, we'll just get that one back. Carbon offsets, you know, let's just, let's just go make a birdie and erase that one. So you and I have talked about this, just like number of greens.

How many greens can you hit? I think is a fun one that sometimes can be helpful. And even like subtracting off that or pulling off that, it's just like how many good full shots you hit? Yeah. How many good full shots, how many full shots would you not take a Mulligan on if offered is like a way different way of thinking about

like your day. Yeah. Dude, even I've gone about this a couple of times where like, if I feel like I'm not like a few weeks ago, I just like, didn't feel like I was hitting my mid irons well at all. I was driving it well. My wedges were good. I just couldn't hit my mid irons. So I just played from the front tees. Dude, this was the third thing I played from like my five and six iron just wore them out. That was the third thing I was going to say is like, I've had half a mind to truly just like,

So that was the third thing I was going to say is like, I've had half a mind to truly just like almost do the tiger par thing of just like, man, I'm not going to stop playing the four T's at, you know, at my like home course and during rounds where, you know, I'm not playing with anybody. Like I play a good amount of solo golf and just going out and like, I'm not going to stop playing the four T's until I break, I don't know, 74, 73, like something, something like that. And just, but what I think that can lead to, and I think this is a funny like side of the same coin is when I, when I start trying to play like quote unquote smart is where I just like I can treat that will trip my myself up as well.

You know, it's all like, we've had a lot of talks about like, what's the front number, you know, divide the front number and the pin and you're just trying to play that. And then when I start like playing away from pins and getting fuzzy with targets, like it's just, it's really hard for me to stay, just like stay committed for 18 holes, which obviously like that's fucking golf.

Like that's what golf is, is just staying committed to every shot. And I have to struggle with that immensely. That's that can be tied to not knowing where the ball's going. Like that style of golf is only really fun. It kind of works inversely when you know where the ball's going. It's super fun to play smart and conservative and away from pins. And because you know, when you don't know where it's going,

there's like a nice little action. You might as well aim at the pin. Like, you know, I could pull it. I could push it. I don't know. But I wouldn. You're just like, I'm not action. Aim at the pin. Like, you know, I could pull it. I could push it. I don't know, but I wouldn't be so hard on yourself with that because that makes total sense. Solid. That's something that like, I've tried to stop doing like, all right,

I'm going to shade this two feet to the left, two feet to the right. No, I'm going to try to like aim this at the pin and make it like, I feel like that's kind of a underrated thing too of like, I think when you, when you start making those little micro adjustments or shading in a certain way or another, and all you're doing is exacerbating it. Sometimes if you're not executing, you know, it's like,

I think all this kind of ladders up to, you know, we've got like another project that we're working on. And I was thinking about like all these kind of, uh, themes and, and stuff. And one of the like big headlines, I feel like I've come up with for my game is kind of almost like the more I learn about golf, the worse I have gotten. And I think that is very true. And it's kind of funny as a joke, but I think it's true as well. Where TC, what you just said is exactly how I'm thinking, where it's like the more I've

hung with caddies and players and watch tour level golf and like played competitions and play different grass types and play different firmness and play different wins and travel around the more I'm just like accumulating stuff in this like backpack of things that can to think like to think about quote unquote and I feel like over counteracting against Oh Oh my God. So totally. And that's where it's like, well, maybe I'm only capable of processing like two or three of these things, not like 35 of these things. And it's just, it's, it's funny to know. I don't know. It's a funny trick of the mind, I think, to like actively ignore certain things. You know, I don't know how to, I don't know how to ignore advice. Like honestly, some of it is, and this is no shade to anybody

who does this, keep doing it. It's very funny. But even comments, Instagram comments, or whatever that you read, you're just like, fuck, that guy's totally right about my swing. And it's just hard to be like, well, that guy's right. I've thought about the fact that he's right. I've thought about, but let me just put that aside, is just this mental fortitude that I don't know that I have in the absence of practicing and really drilling in a routine and doing all of the things that I would need to do to counteract all those thoughts.

Because I do... You guys having fun yet? Welcome to the party. No, no, no, this is great. Jesus. This is great, But I feel like, I know you said you've had a lesson. So I don't want to like,

What more can I do? I had a lesson. Paper over, but like, I honestly do think like, you potentially, and I don't know, I don't know the swing well enough to like say exactly what it is. I can tell you, I can show you some screen grabs of what I think is not great. But I think you might just like have exactly what it is. I can tell you, I can show you some screen grabs of what I think is not great,

but I think you might just like have a fatal swing flaw. And if you can have little, little different, differing peaks and valleys within that, but unless you are going about, I go being up on his toes, up on the toes and steepness thing is gotta change somehow. Well, for those that don't know, like I tend to like get the club to a pretty decent spot on the way back. My first move is kind of like a forward flexion with my wrists, which creates steepness, which

then makes it so that I don't have enough space to get the club, which then leads to early extension, which then leads to either like the high week right miss or the super fucking fast quick low left left miss. And like you talk to anybody who's ever played golf. And it's like, well, if you'd like to play good golf, you should get rid of one of those. And it's like, right. No, I know that. But it's Oh, yeah, let me write that down. Okay. And then it's kind of like you get into the process of like actually fixing it is where you start getting into, well, it's swing path related. No, it's mobility related. No, it's you got to do this drill. No, you got to buy this training aid. No, you got to. And that's where it's like, on one hand, it's like really funny because it's like, well, that's like, that's golf, man. Like that's why people, that's why people like it and why people, it drives people insane. And on the other hand, it's like, sorry to what you're saying. It's like, man. That's why people like it and why it drives people insane.

And on the other hand, it's like solid to what you're saying. It's like, well, yeah, maybe I just need a pilot to just commit and drive the ship in one direction. But I've tried to self pilot for a long time. Clearly, that's not going great. So I either need to be okay with closing my eyes and hitting the gas or letting someone else drive, I think is maybe the point you're making. Cause I think you, if you got like a swing tip or a fix,

it is not go to the range and think about that is like, Hey, here are three drills that I need you to do all winter. And it's gonna, when you come out the other end and get to see the golf ball again, it's going to feel different. Like that's the only way to actually instill it. Right. You can't in your brain, you can't just be like, okay, let's not get up on my toes and get steep and do all like all the, those flaws are not like something you can't like flip on in your head.

That's not your head. That's causing that. It's just like, that's how you swung the golf club. Like I'm still over trying to overcome flaws from when I was in eighth grade from from things I do about get my hands too high and things like that. Well, and this is where I think I have TC on my other shoulder be like drills fucking suck. We're not going to come on. We're not doing a bunch of drills.

Just hit the flag, man. That's not fun. Come on. Hey, birdies. Yeah. And I'm like, man, both you guys are kind of like both more than five or more birdies in a row more often. God, Neil and I, so Neil and I just got back from, uh, we were like Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, like doing a video project up there and we started the week and

we're like, Oh, we could play like a week long match or we could do whatever. And I was like, no, no, no, let's like, let's, let's work together. Let's be on a team against the course for the whole week. And so we tried to play best ball under par, which for us is is a challenge. And we got to it. We met TC spoiler. We made four birdies in a row and standing at the standing on that tee. We were both just like, shit, like we've got the TC is it's in play. It's the holy grail. Yeah. And not only do we need to do it, we need to do it more.

We need to think five birdies in a row more. But anyways, it's, yeah, I feel like I got, I got both of you guys kind of on the, on each shoulder. And I think you're both making good points because I, but I think it ultimately kind of comes down to like, well, what are you, what are you trying to get out of it, man? I've seen you get amped on a new feel or a new something. Like, oh, I got it.

And you get amped. Like, it's not like you, that world is completely foreign to you and not something you don't ever want to mess with. Totally. No, I know. It's just a matter of how deep to dig in. So let me throw one thing at you

because I think this has been a good example of maybe the school of thought that you're bringing to the table. Can I talk to you about stack wedges? Yes, that's exactly where I was going. You've done this for a winter. That's where I'm at. And that is like finding the wedge. Yeah.

You're a good wedge player. Like I think that's like if I had to give you one compliment today, other than I would say I had, I love, I love when you snap. Sure. A lot of that going around. Yeah, you got that. And I think you're an excellent green reader. But I think I think your wedge play, like, I think you have really good hands and like, you know, you know how to hit wedge shots

and you know how to manipulate the golf ball. I think that's right as well. And I think that where I'm going to get to the stack in a second because it's all related here. But where I think the low point that I hit in my, I don't know, my golf career, whatever you would call it, was like a couple of years ago when I started hitting those shots really bad and I was thinking so much swing stuff that I like all of a sudden couldn't hit. I think I was just making so many bogeys from like, you know, 80 yards and in in the middle of the fairway, just bad, bad, bad wedge shots. And that's where I'm like, man, the swing thoughts have just like overtaken,

you know, this type of natural ability. And I think one thing that where a lot of this stuff is married up is with stack wedges, which is something that I was able to do in my garage. I have a little piece of turf and a net in my garage. I have the stack launch monitor and it's basically just gets back to, I don't care how you do it, just figure out how to hit the ball 50 yards. Just figure out how to hit the ball 76 yards.

Figure out how to hit the ball 91 yards. And it kind of shouts out these numbers and it gathers a bunch of data over the different sessions that you're doing it. And it eventually spits out like, hey man, here's, here's where you need to work. Here's where you're struggling is your, you know, from 60 yards and in, you tend to hit the ball too far from 90 yards and out, you tend to hit the ball too short. You know, like it, on these shots, you tend to hit it to the right on these shots.

You tend to hit it to the left. And it just is kind of a, like, okay, now we can look at the technique stuff and now we can figure out what technique stuff and now we can figure out what's wrong. But like building the base of just feeling what a 50 yard shot feels like, just feeling what a 60 yard, 70 yard, 80 yard, 90 yard shot feels like. Yeah. And it just like stacks up so much confidence when you get out on the golf course and then you start to feel like, oh my God, I know what a 95 yard shot feels like. I know what a 76 yard shot feels like and you can adjust for conditions and yada, yada, yada. So we've

shouted out the stack in the long game a lot, which I still continue to, I still like despite struggling with the scorecard am driving it a lot better this year than I have been. But I also don't think we've shouted out kind of the stack wedges enough and just kind of another element of everything that they've got going on on that app. Because it's been something, especially for indoor golfers who are looking for something to do during those long winter months, it's been something that's been really, really great. The stack system dot com slash nlu code no laying up gets you 10% off any order on the

site, whether that be for the whole kit and caboodle. It's fantastic. And I know I need to get on the wedge stuff as well, but you also did the speed stuff in the off season. You picked up a crap ton of speed and I know it's, it's hard to keep where you, you not, you're not made enough baby excuses in the last 35 minutes, honestly. Like it's a very hard time in your life to get a lot better at golf. Like it's almost impossible time if you're, unless you're trying to do it professionally.

Also you moved from a place that you played year round to a place where you don't play around. I think that like in concert with also having a kid and all of that, you know, like the last few years, there's been a lot of change in your golf ecosystem. That's true. I was kind of hoping I'd get better at golf moving up here because I never played well in Florida, but that has not been the case quite yet. Yet. Yet. However, the courses do send it.

I don't know. It tends to suit me a lot better up here. I think this type of grass is, it fits me a lot better. We just haven't quite seen the results yet. But the other thing on the stack stuff that I want to shout out because you guys have alluded to it a couple of different times. And the thing that I'm verbalizing here because I need to remind myself of it more and more often is the point, as it pertains to me,

is to raise my floor, not to like push my ceiling to ungodly heights. And I think that can be easy to forget for me sometimes where I need to, you know, I just need to where I've driven the ball best, Randy, to your point, and where I've gotten the best feel and felt like I'm actually playing golf this year is when I remember to swing the driver like it says seven iron or swing the driver like it's an eight iron, like, like, and just trusting that that cruising speed has been raised, which it absolutely has. If you look at

ball speed, if you look at like all sorts of different things, like I'm hitting the ball a lot farther. And it's just a matter of reminding myself of that constantly that like, hey man, you don't have to go after this, especially into the wind, especially with a hole that shapes this way, especially with, you know, a hole that's this distance,

like whatever, it just can be hard to constantly remind myself of that. And that's where I think like the lack of a process and just like overwhelming myself with information on each shot has come back to bite me a little bit. Yeah. What's in the bag these days? What are you swinging?

I know we're getting ready to get fit. Just got fit. Oh, you got fit. Just got fit, very exciting times. Yeah, so at the top of the bag, I play the GT3 driver and fairway woods. I have a three wood and a five wood in the bag. Again, like the, this is coming from somebody who's like never driven the ball well. So I understand kind of sounded like I'm speaking on both sides of my mouth that there's still work to

do, but it is, I think kind of the most confidence inducing driver that I've had in quite some time. So I do really, really love the GT three and we tend to get along as well as me and a driver have in a while. The GT three is made by which equipment? That's a title as driver. Yeah, that's a title as driver. Thank you for, for pointing that out for anyone who was confused. Yeah. On the iron side of things, I have, I just got fit into like a very similar setup to what I had with the last line of T-Series

irons, which was T-Series pitching wedge through six iron. I have the T150 in that. And then I have a, I had a T 200, a four and five iron. Now I have a T 200 or now I have a T 250 four and five iron as they changed that line at the bottom of the bag. I've been using, have you guys been using the like 44 degree Vokey? I love it. That they sent. I love it as well.

Uh, I had the, I had the T one 50 pitching wedge for a long time and I was feeling like a pretty solid. We've talked about this before, but a pretty big gap with just like how far that pitching wedge was going. And I had kind of too big of a gap between that and my like Vokey 50 degree was like, even though the lofts were theoretically like should have been gapped that one 50 just had a 10 like I just had a tendency to again, because of my swing, like pull it long left a lot. And it was just leading to a lot of like smothered pitching wedges that are going

one 50 when they're supposed to be going 135 or something like that. And so I switched to that 44 degree, uh, Vokey wedge and that has, that has fixed the gapping and I just, I really, really, uh, like that thing a lot. Vokey wedges I have a 50, a 54 and a 58. And then I have the Scotty Cameron, uh, 5. Cameron 5.5 putter. I kind of alternate between that and the Newport 2 depending on if I need any, you know, to look down at something different, but I have been putting pretty well. Yeah. Whenever I need to employ it, I have, and it's, I'm just kind of somebody that like I long to putt with a blade. I love it. It

looks so cool. Like I just, I love the way that those, those new ports look. But I just objectively put much better with the mallet. And so I've kept that in the bag. Do we have a, was there some breaking news potentially on the golf ball? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Good question. So this is again, kind of goes back to the stack and just like changing your, your cruising speed. I was hitting, you know, hitting some irons in my iron fitting and the Provio and X was, was getting, it was just a little more, um, like the way I was hitting balls into the wind, which is kind of what

you're, you should do, right? To exacerbate the problems. And the ball was just getting battered a little bit more than it probably should have. And it kind of had both of us a little bit puzzled. And I was mentioning, I was like, all right, look, I got fit into this ball like almost three years ago now, two and a half years ago, whatever it was, fit into the Pro V1 X, which you know, all should be based, your ball fitting should always be based, you know, on your like a seven iron, like based on your irons and how your irons fly. And I was like, since then I've kind of done like some speed training stuff and I think I'm probably a little faster and probably therefore like adding a little bit more spin. And I was like, I, since then I've kind of done like some speed training stuff and I think I'm probably a little faster and probably therefore like adding a little bit more spin. And I don't know if it's worth trying the Pro V1.

And so we switched. He's like, absolutely. It's worth trying that. We switched to the Pro V1. No brainer. It was a switch. I'm going confidently in that direction, you know, for the foreseeable future. So Randy, it's been real, man.

You know, I wish you and Cody and I forget who else, maybe KVV, Casey. I wish you guys all the best with the Pro V1X, but I'll be switching to the Pro V1. So yeah, huge news. Huge news. And it was super- Welcome to the squad. Thank you. It was super windy.

We just played our Roost Major. It was a great first round. It was like blowing 30, gusting to, I don't know, who knows what. And it was a good like round. It was like blowing 30 Gusting to I don't know who knows what uh, and it was a good like, oh wow the wedges are just not not quite uh ballooning the way that they were or the You know, nine irons actually it's going the distance that like just seeing the ball hold up in the wind was like a light bulb, uh a light bulb difference for me and also seeing like what I was kind of in my head about was like well, I wonder if this is gonna change the driver

and like, am I gonna need to change my driver settings or yada, yada, yada. And it wasn't like actually seeing the driver fly through the same window, despite different spin profile was great. So. Kind of reverse engineering this way, we dove straight into all your major, major problems

and kind of psychoanalyze those greatly. engineering this way, we dove straight into all your, all your major, major problems, and kind of psychoanalyze those greatly. But what is your, I don't even know if I fully know this story as well, as long as we've known each other, like how you got into golf, why golf, you know, you made a career out of golf before a lot of us did as well, but your background in, in, did you play competitively as a kid? When did you get bit by the bug? Did you have the bug as a kid? How did you end up here professionally? I don't know how long you can go with that, but like, there's a lot of, a lot of runway there. Yeah. So I grew up in a small town called Genoa, Illinois, which had a golf course.

Where is that located? Just outside Chicago. No, it's like an hour and change outside of Chicago. And it's a town of like 3000 people and had a golf course that was, I say this with all love in my heart, just like a little too nice to be in that town. It was one of the golf courses that was built in the seventies, built around some housing developments, basically built to sell houses. The town just never quite exploded around it to the point where it would make sense to have that golf course. As of now, the price back then on a Sunday morning was like, to go play 18 holes with

a golf cart was probably like 50 bucks or something, which now would be probably like, I don't even know. A hundred and fifty, like, uh, like the way golf rates have changed, I feel like, but it was like too expensive for the people in this small town. And it was not quite nice enough to draw people from Chicago to like drive all the way out there and play it. And the reason I give all that preamble was because I grew up across the street from the first green and my uncle also owned the golf course.

Like my uncle who lived in Chicago, like owned this course and was there like once a year. And so it was kind of just like a very natural, like I was just there all the time. And so I started working there when I was way too young to like legally be allowed to work at a golf course. I was probably like, I don't even know, 11 or something when I was like parking carts and filling water coolers and like, I was just at the golf course every day. And the reason I give all that, I think so. Yeah. I think I'm pretty sure like it might've been a cash situation or I don't even remember what it was, but like the reason I gave all that setup to it was because there's just like nobody at this golf course. So it was like you're doing all this stuff and you're working and it was, so it would always be like you'd work from 5am till noon and then you'd play golf all afternoon or you'd work from noon until close and you'd play golf all morning. And so I was just there all day, every day and kind of got to like, I don't know, by the time I

was, I worked there every, every year until I was like a sophomore in college, I guess, and kind of eventually became like an assistant, like what would be equivalent to like an assistant pro just without any real like playing capabilities. You know, I was like, just been like a six handicap my whole life. And illegal assistant for basically unlicensed assistant pro, but it was a lot of like running 31,000. I was going to say not part of the 31,000. There was a member of the 31,000 there who was, who was, you know, imparting all of his tutelage on all of us, but it was a lot of like running the Tuesday night women's league, you know, imparting all of his tutelage on all of us. But it was a lot of like running the Tuesday night women's league, you know, doing, setting up carts and doing scoring for that and organizing

dinner afterwards and like checking people in on, you know, running the pro shop on a Saturday and Sunday morning and opening the golf course and closing the golf course. And, you know, all the way down to just like, Hey, we're thinking about like taking this tree out. Like, can we all, maybe on Thursday, can we figure out how to like, we're going to pull it down and then we're going to have to like, I don't know, chainsaw it up and get all the shit out of here. Could you guys help? Like, yeah. So it was a lot of like, it was just like the, you know, I went to, I was at home and I went to school and I was at the golf course. Like that was, those were the three places that I was at for my whole life. And so, uh, obviously just like got bit by the bug through that. My dad would take me to go play on like Saturday mornings, um, with him and his friends, uh, which is

crazy to me now, the idea of like taking like a seven year old kid as the fourth on a Saturday at like eight 20 and just being like, don't just fucking go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym.

I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym.

I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to go to the Yeah. I mean, I had like a, you know, when I was like five or six, I had like the week long golf clinic, like here's how you grip it. Here's how you chip.

You put these in the back of your stance. You put these in the front of your stance. But then after that, it was pretty much self-driving. And you know, I would occasionally have like the pro like give me a tip or something like that. But it was always like, probably very similar to you guys, like played a big swooping draw when that was like the thing to do as a kid, you know, and it was like good players hit a draw. So it was like, all right, well I better figure out how to hit a draw.

And then that draw turned into a hook and then that became pretty debilitating like when I was in college and then I was kind of like, uh, all right, we need to rebuild this and get the ball going the other way. Uh, we found that outer limit and now we're very capable of hitting both of those extremes on command. So I went to college. I went to high school. I played on the high school golf team, which again, there's like a hundred and some kids in my class. So not a super competitive, not a super competitive golf team, but yeah, it was like the number, I don't even know, two or three guy on our, our high school golf team, did everything with those guys, like really tight, tight knit team. Like just again, kind of reminds me of like the way all of

us have a very similar shared language about the game. I think there were four or five people on that team that were very similar that all worked at the golf course as well. And it was just people that you just did everything with, which was really, really fun. And again, I feel like we've talked about this with NLU as well, but not a lot of just golf sickos at Genoa Kingston High School. So you kind of find your guys that you're tight with and everybody kind of has this shared language and is watching golf every weekend and using all these analogies through golf and all that stuff. But it was also fun because the high school was so small that we also all played basketball and baseball and all these other sports. But by the time it was like golf season

and during the summer, it was just a lot of playing golf with those guys. So shout out to those guys. Who was your, like during that kind of adolescence, sixth, seventh, eighth grade into high school, who was your favorite player? I mean, Tiger, it's not like a, I wish I had a better answer for you. Duvall, like I would, you know, I would be a little bit revisionist history to say I was like some huge Duvall guy, but I remember very much liking him, but it was all Tiger all the time, pretty much. Sorry, Randy. I know you're a big Phil guy, but I was a front runner. It's fun to watch the guy who's the best win, I guess. But a lot of Western Open, the Seattle

Western Open, they shouted that out on the broadcast. Trev's illustrious win in 2006. I can tell you Trev, I was at Cog Hill, was not rooting for you that day. But congratulations, you know, after the fact with a little more perspective, I understand that that was, that was a cool day, but yeah, it was, it was really very hard for tiger that day. But yeah. So then did you have anybody you hated? I always think that's a good companion question. I'm really like an out on Phil or was it like, yeah, he's okay.

Whatever. I think I was out on Phil. I don't, um, I don't remember like super early on this one. Yeah. I told you guys. Yeah. I don't remember it being like super visceral, but I do remember it just being like, like hating Phil and hating like the Chicago Cubs for very similar reasons. You know, I don't know if that makes sense or I remember my high school golf coach was a guy that you guys would have absolutely

loved Steve Sterling rest in peace, but he is, he was, um, like we joked about it a little bit, but he was a guy that I really liked. And I think he was a guy that I really liked. And I think he was a guy that I really liked. And I think he was a guy that I really liked. And I think he was a guy that I really liked. And I think he was a guy that I really liked. And I think he was a guy that you guys would have absolutely loved. Steve Sterling, rest in peace. But he was like, we joked about this TC on your spotlight.

I remember that like if I was a high school golf coach right now, I think what I would impart more than anything is just like how to play golf, how to get the ball into the hole in the most effective way. And I cannot stress how much that was not the case with my guy, coach Sterling, who was just like the best. He was, he was like this legendary baseball coach. He was a baseball coach forever. Led the Genoa Kingston Cogs to their, to their, their best era of high school baseball and then just kind of coached the golf team, I think maybe to like play free golf.

So golf was in the fall? golf. Golf was in the fall. Yes. Golf golf was in the fall. That sounds like my basketball coach. He was the golf coach. He just enjoyed driving the van. Yes. You know, hit the driving range when he was able to just, and I think there was a light, there was a life lesson, you know, kind of handed down every now and again, but as far as like golf lessons, it was always just like, Hey coach, I got this like debilitating hook. Like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. This is, I cannot keep the ball on the planet. Do you have any ideas? And I, for anybody who's watching this on YouTube, it would basically just be like, all right, so you just got to, and it was just like, you got to take it from here to here.

And that was truly the only thing I ever remember. I ever remember. Like, go talk to your local club, bro. Yeah, no, not even that. Now you're just you're kind of off. You just need to be you just need to be here. Like, OK, all right, I'll try now. Yeah, that would hook to you.

But just like a completely legendary character, like exactly what a high school golf coach should, should be. He was great, but, um, speeding up the story. I got to, went to college. I went to college to become a mechanical engineer, which went great. As you can, as you can tell, got like a year into that and was like, I don't think this is for me. Uh's a lot of math going on here that I don't think. You know what it was? Honestly, it's a bit like golf where it was like my high school was so small that my perspective was just all thrown off, you know, where I'm like, man, I'm like, you know, whatever. I'm in like the AP math and I'm kind of, you know, I'm kind of a kid in this like small high school. And I get to like college, I was like, Oh, whoa, no, sorry.

I've been faking it like this is I have not that dude. Sorry. Show my work. Yeah. Hold on. Sorry about that. I'm sorry. No, I beat those guys. But like, I don't think I'm supposed to be in this class. And so I switched to journalism, had no real like ambitions to be any kind of political reporter or anything like that.

So what is everybody who's a 19 year old kid who grew up playing every sports, like I should write about sports and started doing that, started taking every internship I could get. And at the time I was also, I had like five jobs when I was in college, I was like doing everything because it was like doing everything. Cause it was like right as the economy crater. And I was like, I'm just never going to have a job. So I should, I need to get all this experience. And I was opening this golf course in Peoria.

I would just like work there on the weekends and show up at like five and again, five work, five to like noon or whatever. And the head pro that was there, this guy, Jeff Roche was the, um, the Bradley men's golf coach as well. And he got an email one day and he was like, Hey, uh, this, this magazine golf week is like looking for interns this summer. Like they're, they're sending it out to all these golf coaches.

I don't, none of them are kids are going to be interested, but like, maybe you're interested. You're, you know, you're a writer. Uh, and I was like, yeah, sure. And so I emailed them and ended up doing that for the summer, went down for this, uh, internship, the summer between my junior and senior year, which was basically like this just souped up, you know, grad school program almost for like working in golf. It was literally everything from learn how to lay out pages, learn how to build the agate section, the scoreboard section in the

back, learn how to do a little reporting, go cover events. So it's funny now, I remember going to a college event and doing a story about Blaine Barber when he was switching from, you know, uh, he was switching schools and like going to Auburn. That was like this huge piece of news in the college golf world. I remember that. I remember like, I've told you guys this story, I'm sure, but this kid won this AJGA event, the foot joy invitational, which is like an AJGA major, and he was like, I'm going to go to Auburn and I'm going to go to Auburn and I'm going to go to Auburn and I'm going to go to Auburn and I'm going to you guys this story. I'm sure, but this kid won this AJGA event, the foot joy invitational, which is like an AJGA major. And it was like this no name kid that won. And I was working there with Sean Martin who works for the PJ tour.

Now one of my good friends. And he's like, Oh my God, nobody's like this fucking kid one, like nobody's going to ever hear from this kid again. Like just have DJ like get his phone number and call him. And it was Justin Thomas, uh, which is really funny. And so it was just like talking to him when he's like, you know, hear from this kid again, like just have DJ like get his phone number and call him. It was Justin Thomas Which is really funny. And so it's just like talking to him when he's like, you know 16 or whatever and like what was really working for you out there today? And so it was like the same thing like the junior plug going to cover, you know Cover the junior players where it's like Spieth and griot and Patrick Rogers and all these guys. And so it was just like this like souped up version of, you know, kind of working in the

golf industry after I graduated, went and worked for golf week for a couple of years. And then went and worked for the PGA tour after that, a time that's probably been well documented on this podcast, but long answer. Sorry, but there, there we go. No, that's, that's a great answer. We know you have a heart out here in about 20, uh, 20 minutes or so. We have a bunch of, a bunch of good questions that we've we've tried to get in some of these,

but I think we, I can't risk this one falling too far down the list. So let's do this one now, which is, uh, want to hear your 10 favorite golf courses in the world. Yeah. Just go over there from 10 to one that you've played. Okay. Definitive list as of late June, 2025. Yeah. Can I talk to you through my, my methodology, my process a little bit here? Sure.

Okay. So I didn't want to overthink it. TC, we know that these lists are going to change and I just want to embrace that and know that it's going to feel different tomorrow than it feels today. I'm leaning into that. It's a living document. It's a living document. So I just, I made a list of every course that I thought could possibly be on there. Stream of consciousness, open the vein,

throw them on a list. And then I just started picking and rank ordering them. And my criteria, which I think is a good one, is they had to be courses I played multiple times because I had to have seen them multiple times with multiple swings, with multiple wins, with multiple, you know, I don't want to just be like, oh, I played there once. I shot the round of my life. That's one of my favorite courses ever. I was trying to avoid that.

It's the nicest sunset ever. Exactly. With great people. That's exactly right. So courses that could have been on there, if I had included places I had only played once, Soli, Royal County Down, it's only played once, you know? And be on there. If I had included places I had only played once. Royall County down, it's only played once. It would be on there. LACC only played it once. Chinacoc only played it once. Karn, Karn I've only played once. Can't put it on there. Kapalua. I'm like, I love Kapalua. Brough Creek National only played once. and you cheated that around too. Exactly. Uh,

if I did I cheat or did I, I don't know. It feels like a strong accusation. Uh, uh, solid Valhalla I've only played once, you know, who knows next time around, it could be life changing. So what is it? Well what happens if you play them and dining at number three again, basically a different golf course. Exactly right. So this is this is the list.

We're recording this on June 23rd. It's 3 11 p.m. Central time. The list could change, but this is the list right now. Number 10. Sweeten's Cove. TC I don't know if it's quite as formative or transformational as it was for you and your golf journey.

But a true never seen something like that. I didn't know you could do that type of place. Some of my favorite golfing memories ever. Some of my favorite people I've ever met in the game have been there. Some of the best shots I've ever hit, some of the worst shots I've ever met in the game have been there. Some of the best shots I've ever hit,

some of the worst shots I've ever hit, a full spectrum of just a place that is lost. Yes. A place that has enriched my life greatly, I would say, and just simply demands a place on this list. Number nine, La Hinch. Similar, just absolutely loved our time there for Tura Sauce. I played there once where I just walked it with Justine. She was there. She wasn't even playing. She was just walking along. The weather was horrible, and it was just this fun little bit

of a light bulb going off for her, even though it was so shitty out and there's no way, you know, she would have wanted to be out there playing golf. I think she could see what it meant to me. And, you know, I could see, you know, how nice it was for her to stick that round out. And just, I don't know, the Klondike and the Dell and the whole, like just the whole, the whole deal, man, that whole front nine is so good. The town is so great. Going to Patty's bar, that whole such a, just a lot of color there. That is, is pretty hard to ignore. Number eight. This is a controversial one, but I have played it. I have played twice, maybe not controversial.

Just as I surprised myself with this quail hollow TC. You got it. No, but I have played it. I have played twice, maybe not controversial, just as I surprised myself with this quail hollow, quail hollow TC. You got it. No, I've never played quail. Hollow can't be on the list. Uh, number eight is the Lido, a golf course that I walked off the first time TC when you and I played and I was just like, huh, that was a lot. I don't know, man. That feels a little arbitrary. That feels like, is this place a little too cute? I don't know. Like rich guy art project.

Yeah. Did we need to Lazarus this thing from the dead? I don't know. And then I went and played it again with some friends the next summer, later that same summer. And I don't know. I haven't played particularly well there. It's not like a, you know, not putting my thumb on the scale from that perspective. It just was like, God, it was so fun. And you just, the more you play it, the more intentionality you see behind all of those bunkers, the more options of how to play every hole you see, the more fun the greens are. It's a place that like, you guys know that I struggle with the driver. You can hit it anywhere you want.

There's probably kind of a theme to some of these golf courses. I'm not going to be on the list next year. It might be number one. I don't know. Right now it's number eight, number seven. We're going to, we're going to stick in Wisconsin. You guys probably saw this one coming. This is Aaron, who's the head coach of the golf course. He's the head coach of the golf course. He's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course.

And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And he's the head coach of the golf course. And might be number one. I don't know. Right now it's number eight. Number seven, we're going to stick in Wisconsin. You guys probably saw this one coming. This is Erin Hills. Another place that is, you know, is it perfect? No.

You know, is it a big ass walk? Yes. But gosh, it's just a place that I feel so comfortable and have had so much fun. I love the people. I love the setting. I love the drive out there. I love the second hole. I love the third hole. I love the 15th hole. I love the 14th hole.

I love the 18th hole, even though it continues to punch me in the face. It's just, I love, love, love, love being out there and kind of can't get enough of it. And I was really happy everybody got to see it last year for our club championship and had such a great time and saw some glimmers of what I think that place is all about. The sun finally popped out when Ben just snuffed us all out a couple beers on the back porch. It's just, it's, it's, uh, it's really hard to beat. Really hard to beat. That was Ben strangling me, not choking. I didn't even have an opportunity to choke. I just got strangled out by Ben. Number six, you mentioned it earlier. I'm sure you guys predicted that this would be on the list somewhere.

Bandon Trails, my favorite course at Bandon. I think you said it's got it. It might be the best public golf course in America. There is one more. Batter number. Batter Piners number two. Yeah. There is one more public golf course on my list. And outside of that, I don't know that I can really quibble with it, man. I think it has a legitimate claim to that title as heady as it might be. I love the walk. I think when you, you know, we're going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation and like, what do you really look for? I think that's one thing we didn't touch on is just like a great walk. You know, I think that a lot of these places have that where they just, they feel like, they feel like a walk in a park or a walk, you know, in the woods or, you know, enough has been said.

I don't need to belabor the walk at abandoned trails. Everybody knows how good that is, but my favorite golf course on the property, it's not particularly close, a place I would play all day, every day, for the rest of my life. Number five, the vaunted top five. Do you guys have some predictions on where we're headed, or would you like me to just keep rolling? I've got me in a pretzel with, you know,

I don't know all the courses you've only played twice, or at least twice. There's gotta be a sentimental one in here somewhere. There's gotta be something that's pretty far afield too. Yeah. Like Jack's beach or somewhere up in Milwaukee. There's got to be number five total sleeper off the wall pick. Come at me. Pine Valley. Uh, splash world. Uh, just, again, I don't know if you guys need me to extol the virtues of Pine Valley, but we get news a place that like, again, for as bad as I drive the golf ball, for that to be number five on my list, I think, I think kind of says it all. But just pretty well on that trip, though.

Yeah, I played OK. OK. Enough to again, it kind of goes back to what we were saying is like enough to, I played well enough to experience it and feel like you got to get the shots and just, I don't know, a trip that I'm like immensely, immensely grateful for having taken, got to stay in the clubhouse, got to play it three times, see it a bunch of different, a bunch of different ways and a bunch of different looks, learn a little bit about it each time. And I mean, it's, it's everything. It's the history, it's the setting, it's every hole onto itself. It's the greens, it's the bunkers, it's all of it. I don't. I don't.

Indeed, if you don't hit the shot the first time, you can go play the short course. I think we're gonna- Play that shot again. I thought you were gonna say it's gonna roll back to your feet and you're gonna get it again. But hitting a little bunty driver onto number five, just that remains one of the highlights

of my golfing career. Number four TC. I think the only one. Oh, go ahead, Randy. No, no, no. I won't spoil it. I do know one course that we haven't touched on yet. I, I, I suspect it's going to be top one or two.

Number four TC. We haven't even gotten outside of the United States yet. Uh, just one hinge, I think. Yeah. Oh yeah, that's right. American first here. Uh, I think Ban Yeah. Oh yeah, that's right. Kind of an American first here. You might say Banff Springs is up there.

Oh, we played it once. Or maybe I played it twice on that trip. Either way, good guess. The one I'm thinking, I know North Barracks coming. And the Old Course. We'll see. We'll see. Place your bets.

Pinehurst 2. Number 4 is Pinehurst 2. Again, we're kind of top of the pops here. This is like not breaking any ground, not really zagging. I'm trying to take the assignment seriously here and do my homework. And I think Piner's number two is like, I think a perfect golf course. I just don't know that I would change literally anything about anything about it. It is great for all levels. It's a place where low handicaps get absolutely eviscerated and they can't figure out why. It's a place where great players can show off how great they are.

It's a place that's walkable probably from your lodging, which is always a benefit. All the history, all the aesthetics of it Sunset out at pinehurst number two sunrise at pinehurst number two like I it's hard to Planko is out there the pine cones on the move. We know that Yeah, it's just ready. You get a you know, maybe get a deuce coin who goes Oh a deuce coin is a cheap thrill. That is a fun. Yeah, I just handed those out everywhere. You know, they're not Donnie's place. Exactly. It's just, it's, it's hard to beat. Uh, I think you guys are going to get the top three probably. Number three is North Baric, uh,

a place that I think was the true first, like in addition to sweetens Cove, but this was actually even before that. I think the first like light bulb golf course I ever played in my life. I remember, I think it was the first time I was outside the United States was at the 2015 open championship at St. Andrew's solid formative, formative trip for our, our friendship where we met for the first time got to watch, you know, Jordan Spieth almost career, you know, complete the career or a third leg of the career, the grand slam.

Greg Norman version. The Greg Norman. Exactly. But early in that week, went to North Baric with Sean Martin, a aforementioned friend of mine and Matt Van Zandt who played golf at Texas Tech. Shout out to him. And took the train, got off the train, walked from the train station to North Baric, didn't really know anything about it other than like, you should play this place. It's pretty crazy. And of course, getting to all the things that we all love about North Baric just like completely shattered my mind as somebody who had only played, who's basically barometer for how good of a golf course, how good a golf course was at that point was like, how expensive is it? And our is how green is it? And you know,

how are the views? Yeah, a lot, a lot of that stuff. And so true, just like mind melting experience to go out there that has stayed with me forever. DJ, I think there's something there as well. Like, once people reach out and they're like, how'd you get into golf course architectures? Like, I don't know, I think there's something there as well. Like, watch people reach out and they're like, how'd you get into golf course architecture? I was like, I don't know. I just started playing a bunch of different golf courses. Yeah. That's kind of the deal. Turns out you don't know what you don't know. And you kind of just need to go see a bunch of stuff. Yeah. So, but that was one that like, you know, again, you guys have heard all of this before, but just kind of breaking every possible rule walls running through the, through the golf course greens

that like look like they can't even be mowed at just, I mean, just the best number two, TC, I'm surprised to not hear this thrown out by you. Sandhills is exactly. I was immediately, I got an immediate text. TC hated sandhills, didn't put it on his list. Just a really... I think about it probably more often than... That's where we disagree. That's fine. Anywhere else. I love the place. I think I think about Sandhills almost every day. That corner on the front nine of the two shower part fours and just the setting out there, the porch, the vistas, uh, the sound, it, it's honestly the, this is an incredibly stupid take, but I think it's the best burger I've ever had in

my life as well. Cody and I just like talk about that constantly. I just edges out solid place. Bunsen in Dublin, uh, just like an all time trip. And even despite the fact that it was, what, 150 degrees outside, I think, TC. Again, you probably don't need me to explain, you know, Sandhills. There's many smarter people that have done that, but everything that those guys said, I agree with and I felt when we were out there. It's God. I cannot wait to return. Just the spirit of the place. What it's built on. Yes. And the lineage that it has sprung with Coren Crenshaw and a lot of the far-flung destination golf that all of us really, really love, the way that the membership goes about

things, it's just, God, what an awesome place, man. And I just feel very lucky to have seen it. Number one, shocking. Anybody want to go out on a limb and guess what number one is? The old course. Lay old. It's the old course. Is that, I don't know, is that in bad taste? Is that like a, should I have zagged and said something else? I truly like the- It's not the most shocking list of your 10 favorite courses. Yeah. I've zagged and said something else. I truly like the the It's not the most shocking list of your 10 favorite courses. Yeah.

What I was kind of trying to go into this list with was, you know, like if somebody told you were playing X, Y and Z courses tomorrow, like rank how excited you would be. And if somebody told me I was playing the old course tomorrow, that would make me more excited than any of these other places. And I think that carries the day. And I think kind of speaks for itself. Again, like some of my all time favorite memories, not only in golf, but in my entire life, I think have taken place on that golf course in that town. So many great people that we have met there, all the history, all the pro game versus the recreational game. It's just, yeah,

it's as good as it gets. It's, it's, it's number one. And I'm sorry if, uh, I'm sorry if anyone was hoping that I would zag a little harder. We could have, we could have sprinkled in some stuff, but it would have been disingenuous. It would have been me just trying to, to teach to the test. And we're not about that, Randy. Visby's not cracking the top five here. That's right. Tough scene for Australia.

I think he only spun it once, so it's not, you know. That's true. Australia, interesting. That was next on my list. I had a list of thought about adding Royal Melbourne. I just, I see all of the reverence that you guys have for Royal Melbourne and I understand all of it reverence that you guys have for Royal Melbourne and I understand all of

it and I feel similarly, I have never had that experience playing it. And I think a lot of that goes back to just like not being able to hit the golf shots and just like straight up not playing good golf while I'm there. And so that takes nothing away from the golf course and the setting and all of that, which are exquisite. I'm just, for me personally, I don't have the same memories because I just like didn't play. Don't feel like I played the golf course. I played it whatever three times and it's just kind of just laid an egg every time.

And it's really frustrating. Kingston Heath was on there. Same reasons. I thought about honest to God, I thought about adding this would have been the biggest zag TBC. Sawgrass is a place that I like when I worked for the tour, I was kind of like, this is everything that's wrong with golf. This place sucks. I can't believe they're charging people with their charge in this place is so hard. Come out here and get beat up for no reason. And the more I've thought about it, the more I'm just like, God, this is a good golf course, man. It's so good. It's so much wrong. And it's still, yeah, it's just, it's become one of my favorite, you know, favorite tournaments to watch every year. It just is it rockets up my list.

The other the other zag would have would have probably been my home course. Honestly, Wisconsin Country Club is a place that is like doesn't quite fit with that list that I put together. But on a list of my favorite places, I love playing there. I always have a good time. I love the people there that I am fortunate to play with. Just a lot of great shots and it's just a place that feels very comfy. So those are those would have been my zags, but that's as good as we got.

I think you undersold your place. Like that's a really good piece of land. And I think like it's a course that has like potential to be even better than it currently is. Yeah, I think so. And it's like the perfect, it's not really a place people are begging to, nobody's begging for you to take them out there to check a box. It's very under the radar. Nobody's dying to play it. Practice facility's great. Membership's awesome. You can always get a game. I know you guys love that. It's a great spot. For all those reasons, it could have made a case on the list. It's hard to knock out, you know, some of the heavy hitters on there though. DJ, if you had 10 rounds between Bandon trails and Aaron Hills,

both difficult walks, because I was going to say like, you know, Aaron Hills versus North Baric or something like that, but you would. Like it's a, it's a, it's a good question. I'll, I'll say, I'll say six, four band and trails just for the, for the fact that I would then be at banded and could probably do a lot of other stuff. That's well said. And then we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, I'll say six, four band and trails just for the, for the fact that I would then be at banded and could probably do a lot of other stuff. That's well said. And then one other one. Sorry. One other. Yeah. Old course versus North Baric.

So I know I'm on record, uh, as, as North Baric being my favorite golf course. And that was true when we, it was before today when we went... Exactly. It might be tomorrow. But I would say that the more I've played the old course, the more I've loved it. Again, hot take. Hot takes only here on this podcast. And I think I've grown so much of an appreciation that TCU very eloquently have put this... It takes a literal lifetime to try to like unlock the old course. And that's part of the charm is the difference of playing it when you're 20 versus playing it when you're 50 and how you play it differently and how cool that is to stack up against each other. And so for all those reasons, I think I would probably go seven, three old course. What

about you guys? Yeah, that sounds right. I'm probably eight, two old course. Yeah. Love North Baric. No shade to anybody. Please give me a pit hat. No shade to anybody. Of course. They all hate me right now. Cause my gun bar nicks.

Oh, that's true. I forgot about that. Like persona non grata there right now. Fuck. I hate that. ATC got canceled and not for dabbing too much. It was unfortunately canceled recently. Well, Dej, we know you got a hard time.

I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're a hard guy. I know you're aC got canceled and not for dabbing too much. It was unfortunately canceled recently. Well, Dej, we know you got a hard out here, but we appreciate, hopefully, I know you were nervous

for this, hopefully you didn't sweat it out too much. We enjoyed learning about your background and everybody send Dej your swing tips. Like swing, send him every swing tip you could possibly have. He reads them. Shops open, baby. Send Like swing, send them every swing tip you could possibly have. Shops open baby. Send them through. Send them through. Yeah.

No, I appreciate it guys. Fun conversation. I love picking at stuff like this. I'm not shying away from it. It's fun to talk about. It's just, you know, it might not be the thing to talk about if you're trying to play really good golf,

but hey, it's part of the tapestry, man. It's part of the experience. So, Yeah, Deidre, I think I'm going to go see my therapist. Yeah. On hear everything that I heard. Yeah. I'm not going to listen back. This was, this was great to do. And thank you to those that listen. These EPS have been really fun to do and we wouldn't do them if people weren't listening and sorry, you're going through that, man. Sorry that happened to you. Yeah. Hey, Randy, you're up next, man. Start. Yeah. I'm ready. I'm ready. It's time. It's time. All right. Cheers guys. Crack on. Thank you, DJ. Cheers.