No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1052: The State of Men's Pro Golf with Josh Carpenter

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

As the Tour prepares for the 2025 Playoffs, Soly is joined by Josh Carpenter from the Sports Business Journal to review the business landscape of the professional game - Brian Rolapp’s arrival as CEO, key sponsorship agreements that will expire in the next two to three years, broadcast innovations, what’s behind the tour’s increase in TV ratings, the current state of LIV, future PGA Tour schedule possibilities and the USGA bidding rights. Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠⁠ Support our Sponsors: Rhoback FanDuel.com/nlu The Stack System If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most! Expect anything different? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast. Solly here. Got a conversation coming up shortly with Josh Carpenter from the Sports Business Journal. Hopefully you guys are following him on Twitter, Josh A. Carpenter.

Ever since he got on the Golf Beat, man, that guy has been breaking news and just is really interwoven into the fabric of the PGA Tour and what's going on with sponsors and all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. And I just picked his brain for about an hour and a half on all things going on, calling this one the state of men's golf with Josh Carpenter, who you will see very quickly is very well informed and gets us up to speed on a lot of things that we've kind of put on the back burner for a long time talking about because not a lot's been going on, but we check in a lot of these things. I want to give a shout out to our friends at Roeback. You know them, our go-to for polos, hoodies, joggers, shorts, pants, fit, all of it. Best fit, best feel, simple as that.

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kind of edging towards the end of the men's pro golf season. We'll start broad. We're going to get nitpicky. You track schedules, you track commercials, you track all this stuff. And people have heard our takes on all this stuff. We needed to bring in an outside voice for some answers to some questions. What's the biggest story right now in men's golf at the moment? I think Chris, it has to, I think it has to be roll up and just like how he approaches things. I mean, there are 10 different answers you could probably give right now. Like you could go live, you could go, you know,

I don't think it's live anymore. I still think everything, I think everything goes back to live. Like would roll up, would the PGA tour have started a nonprofit arm and would they hire a new CEO if not for live and for profit arm? You said non-profit. Yeah, sorry. So I think it, like you said, it could go all back to live, but I think right now it's roll up and what he does from a media perspective, obviously we've

seen like he's has been one of the more brilliant minds in sports media for the last 20 years. Like look at what the NFL has done around red zone which was just sold to ESPN this past week. Maybe one of the most popular, I mean, sports consumption products there are, right? Like that's the only way to watch NFL football in my mind. You look at, you know, you can say everything

about Thursday night football and are the games good. By and large, I don't really think they are, but he's one of the people behind, you know, dreaming up that product, creating an entirely new product for Thursday night, the NFL taking over another night in the week. So it's like, how does, how does Brian approach that? We've talked a lot about schedule schedule next year looks by and large the same, but as you get into 27 and as you get into 28,

some of these sponsor deals start coming up. The FedEx deal is up in 2027, after 2027. So like what impact does that have? We see some of the sponsorships around the tour championship are up after 2027. Where does it go from there? So I think I think really the two biggest things obviously are in my mind are media. How does he kind of handle that? You got the new studios open down there and you know from a schedule standpoint I think that's what a lot of people look at and

then there are so many other things from a lot of the rumors to buying the PGA of America, buying the PGA of America, buying the Ryder Cup, all these things. I mean, he's got a long list of things that he can tackle. So when you say media as it relates to golf currently, I think, you know, if we're having this conversation five, six, seven years ago, I think I would be screaming at the top of my lungs that the PGA Tour is a massive entertainment problem, media problem, commercial problem. I think things have trended better, especially on one of the two networks, I think,

over the last several years. And, you know, what's a realistic expectation people can have for this changeover? Because I feel like a lot of people at the PJ Tour level want to say things about innovating, about changing, about doing this. It is still a system that is, I, in my opinion, really bogged down by its structure and a lot of complications in there. I'm asking that, what can Brian realistically come in and shake up? Because it is kind of the way the system of the PGA Tour is built. If you shake it up too hard, you got to shake up a whole heck of a lot more. Rebuild it from scratch.

And that's not realistic with some of the timelines of sponsorships and all these events that are standing is kind of what my very long-winded way of saying. This is complicated. What can we expect from this guy? It's very complicated. But if you like, if you talk to, you know, you heard some of Brian's comments,

he was on CNBC out at Sun Valley, a month or so ago talking about kind of, I think, what's going to change from a broadcast perspective, and what you see there is like, the core of the golf broadcast, in my mind is not going to change. Like you're going to see a lot of these additions around the broadcast that they've already started tinkering, like like sellers shy in my mind, like started doing a lot of this long before fan forward long before some of this other stuff I mean we're talking like almost five years ago now when he took over the chair for Lance Barrett

CBS the constant leaderboard right some of the the other things you know the crane shots the drone shots that they're doing now which to the tours credit like the the moving drones those are a tour product and the network partners can just do what they want with them I think it'll be things kind that they're doing now, which to the tours credit, like the moving drones, those are a tour product and the network partners can just do what they want with them. I think it'll be things kind of around the edges of the broadcast that improve. I do think they have to figure out a way to lighten the commercial load.

Like we talk all the time about that. Like you guys, you know, harp on it a lot. It's concerning with how it is. I think they have to figure out a way to, you've seen them start doing that a little bit with the different sponsor overlays on screen that they can do. Look at what the NHL did with their digital

Dasher boards coming out of COVID and how that like transformed the NHL from a broadcast perspective, at least what you're seeing on screen. In my mind, there's gotta be more ways for the PGA tour specifically, to kind of have digital sponsor overlays on hold that aren't intrusive to the people that are there on

the ground. And at the same time, they lighten that commercial load so you get what people want, which is more golf. I will say, Chris, though, you talk to TV producers, and they need some breaks to kind of set up the next segment, to kind of talk to plan like these, the hour long commercial free hours and things like that. It's extremely challenging from a TV perspective, to go through one of those hours to just have like, let's say like you want

the US Open to be three hours of commercial free golf from four o'clock until the final putz hold. That's really hard to do. So that is the flip side. Like they do need some commercials built in, but I think you could probably scale it back a little bit from where we're at right now and to the tourist credit. Like they've worked on a little, on that a little bit thus far this year, at least. Well, because I think if, if I looked at, you know, again, if we view this as two different things, like say it's structure and schedule and flow of

events on the PGA tour and the television product, I think they're two different things. And I think like fixing the television product, improving the television product, which again, I would iterate, has improved greatly since we've been doing this podcast. But I don't, in my opinion, that's not as big of a priority as I would have said several years ago, as I mentioned. But the way I, if I was a roll up coming priority as I would have said several years ago, as I mentioned. If I was a roll-up coming in, I would look at the structure of events, how you crown a champion, the flow of the season, and wonder if that can be done better to create a better television product.

I mean, we're approaching the playoffs here, which is in a bridge year of some kind that I'm not really... Be curious your opinion on what they're doing this year with the playoffs and what they you think they're going to do into the future. But we dream up all of these opportunities that should end at Pebble Beach, it should end at blah, blah, blah, it should end at the players, it should do like the crown, there should be a crowned champion of the PGA Tour season. And this always

falls flat at the end. That to me screams like something that somebody with the genius and the experience of working with the NFL can come in like owners of the Super Bowl can come in and say this is how you crown a season end champion. Right? Well, I mean, if you think about the NFL, like Chiefs Bills is a great television product, not because of the way the game is broadcast. I mean, they do a great job broadcasting the game, but it's a great, it's a great television broadcast,

and it draws 40 million viewers because of the stakes involved because people care. And yeah, to your point, like if you look at the end of the PGA Tour season, with the way the majors have shifted around, honestly, Chris, like by the time the Open Championship is done, I'm kind of like, I don't want to say I'm done. I obviously still pay attention. But if you tell me that I'm supposed to be like overly excited about the PGA, the FedEx Cup playoffs starting this week, I'm not like I used to enjoy it much more when it was in the fall. The guy is a little bit cooler outside. They're playing in the Northeast, you know, the old Deutsche Bank and some tournaments like that right now. Yet the way the season wraps up, it's not very exciting unless you've got like I think of, you know, thinking of just the playoffs, you've got Memphis and Atlanta are just,

I think everyone's tired of going, last year was a great example and I said like, if I was a FedEx executive and I saw how flat Memphis was, from my perspective, Memphis seemed pretty flat last year. And then you look at BMW as the middle playoff event, they're playing at Castle Pines, the vistas are great, the crowds juiced, it's not 108 degrees, like, I would really like to me, BMWs executed really well with what they've done with that event. I know people say what they will about

like Caves Valley this year. But honestly, most of the viewing public doesn't sit there and like critique the layout of a golf course. They just want to see an exciting event. To your point, reimagining that schedule, moving around those events toward the end of the season should positively impact the television product. That's, again, what I was referring to, though, of you change a little bit there,

and it just gets complicated really quickly. I've heard every theory of end you pull, you know, you change a little bit there and it just gets complicated really quickly. I've heard every theory of end the season, you know, in March and the players and have, you know, the beginning of the season and then a big break and then you you can kind of end it. I don't have a good answer. But that's again, where I'm curious of like somebody well above my pay grade, you know, and is the system set up to be able to be shaken like that? Well, I think, you know think we've talked about the sponsors

and some of these sponsorships that are coming up in the next couple of years. And next year, you're not going to see too much change with respect to the schedule. But if you look at 27, as I mentioned, FedEx's deal, a 20-year deal they signed in 2007, that's up. So in my mind, they're already talking about a renewal. What does that look like? These

sponsorship deals are negotiated long, you know, it's not like they just do them last minute and they're done. These are negotiated years in advance of those original, you know, agreements coming up. So they're already talking about that. If you look at the tour championship specifically, I think it's Southern Company, it's Coca-Cola, it's Accenture. Those are the three main sponsors of that event. Those are up in 2027 as well. So if you look past 2027 and you think, all right, what are these sponsors? Like, yes, they, they want those events to be in their markets. But again, if you're FedEx, would you not be more excited if this was, if the first

round of the playoffs is we played, you know, somewhere in the Northeast or the Pacific Northwest, and people were really juiced to go to it and you didn't have the first round of the playoffs as we played, you know, somewhere in the Northeast or the Pacific Northwest. And people were really juiced to go to it. And he didn't have Rory McIlroy just skipping it for no, like no apparent reason other than to like just say, I mean, look at, I think Gary Woodland missed the playoffs. And I think he told Todd Lewis that like he was bummed about missing the playoffs, but at the same time, he was just like excited to go home and just take a month off. Like that's not what you want.

Like he kept his card for next year, which is great. But he was like, yeah, I'm kind of just like, okay, with just going home and taking a month off. Like that's not what you want your playoffs. Like your season's supposed to build to the playoffs and that's supposed to be the peak. So they've got to figure that out. Yeah, no, it's, I've said this many times. It's like, you just gotta stop calling it a playoffs. Yeah, no, it's, it's, yeah.

I've said this many times. It's like, it just kind of stopped calling it a playoff. There's no playoff aspect of it. You're just hosting three end of the year golf tournaments. It has like, for me it has. Yeah. Can you, so maybe this doesn't even need to be talked about. Is this, do you think it's a one time, one year thing, this,

Hey, we're going to play the tour championship straight up for the final prize this year? Like, you know, they've gotten rid of the starting strokes. The previous system, of course, had, there was a tour championship winner and a FedEx Cup winner, which was confusing for everyone. This doesn't really seem that fair to me, which, again, I think there is something

to striking the balance between, you know, I don't expect the team with the best record in the NFL to just go win the playoffs as well. Like that's part of the intrigue of watching the playoffs. But just hosting another golf tournament doesn't also seem to be the best way to crown a champion at the very end of the year. But do you get the sense that they're going to seriously consider match play or something, something fun for next year? I think I'll say like, they realized they had to change the format, right? They couldn't stick with the old format was a joke credit to them for trying something

different, but it clearly didn't work. It was a joke. No one liked it. It was confusing. So, you know, at least they changed it to something this year, I guess. The flip side of that, like you change it in the middle of the season, like, and so if you're willing to change your, your tour championship format in the middle of the season. And so if you're willing to change your tour championship format in the middle of the season, to me that tells me that there aren't many stakes involved in it.

Like if you're willing to say like, all right, we're halfway through the season, we're just going to change it. To me that doesn't give it much meaning. Like they're not going to change the Super Bowl format halfway through an NFL season because it's got so much at stake. So to me them doing that, it's like, yeah, good that they did that. I think it'll be less confusing this year. But they have to they have to innovate and think about how to change it moving forward. I know, I will say, like, one of the pushbacks on match play for this year,

there was a lot of discussion about that. And I don't know what their qualms were with it. But it was the players who did not want match play or on the tour championship. And everything I heard, like it was not the networks, the networks were like, there were proposals on the board for match play for for the tour championship, and the players didn't want it. So I don't really understand, you know, I'm not a player, I don't know a

ton of players, I don't know what their thinking is there. But but everything I heard was that this was a player driven thing to go to this format. But like you said, it's like, all right, they're kind of touted as this new format. It's not a new format. It's just the it's just a 72. You know, stroke play event. So in my mind, you know, match play would be would be great. Everyone loves match play. The only downside to that potential downside is you get like a blowout on Sunday, just

no one, you know, we saw it with I think, Sam Burns and Cam Young for the final iteration of the match play a few years ago, which is a total just, you know, curb stomp for the final and it wasn't that interesting on television. So that's, that's one of the things they fight with on on turning the tour championship into match play. But yeah, they have to do something. It can't just be the same same old format next year.

I'd heard some really honestly good ideas of you know, a certain level of like stroke matches. Final ending with the final four guys or final eight guys playing a stroke play on the final day. And that way, you know, instead of a blowout one on one, yeah, yeah, but like that that could there's a lot of there's a lot of capabilities out there and I hope they look into it. But how do you this honestly been a lot of capabilities out there and I hope they look into it. But

how do you, it's honestly been a bit of a surprise to me in terms of how much TV ratings for the PJ Tour have been on the rise this year. And granted, look, there were some serious hits over the last couple of years that can kind of, I don't want to call it a dead cat bounce, but there's been a significant bounce on a lot of events, right? And some that, you know, even pre-date live, you know, some certain data of, Hey, highest rated blah, blah, blah, since 2019 or what like that? What does this matter? Like in the current landscape, we followed this really closely for several years, because we had this new challenging league, we're gauging what the actual real interest is of that league

versus where a website we send, we all spend way too much time on. And it seemed like a very tangible way of Measuring like what the actual interest level is does this matter at this point? And what do you owe this ratings boom, too? Yeah, I think it still does matter and that's what the advertisers look at. All right, they look at those Sunday final round numbers And I know you hear a ton about streaming right? Oh, you know NBC and peacock like they're you know They do provide like the number that they put out does include streaming and like if you look at the open championship through final round, you're 3.8 million viewers on like linear only linear television. And you add in streaming and I think it was about 300,000 viewers. So it's still a pretty small piece that's true, you know, live at linear TV, like, it's still the king. You know, this NFL is not going to, I don't think there are smarter people than me in sports media. I don't think the NFL is going to put the Super Bowl on streaming on Netflix. Now they have put

some big events streaming on Netflix to see, you know, the capabilities of that. But I think linear TV is still king. I think people know that for For the tour's numbers and why they rebounded, it is cyclical. Two years ago, Chris, it was sunshine and lollipops. And the numbers were high every week and all this stuff. They were winning the battle with Liv, all this stuff. Last year, the sky was falling. It was every week.

And their ratings last year were down, I think, I think it was 15 to 17%, something like that across the board. So naturally, they're going to come up this year. I think there are a couple of factors why they've come up, you know, one of them being that it's just normalized, they're just naturally going to come up from being down last year. I think people also, you know, we're two years on from the framework deal, people have just kind of realized like, it just is what it is.

There was a lot of talk earlier part of this year about them doing a deal together. I think now people have just decided, I'm going to watch what I'm going to watch. I've moved past all the negative talk, all the drama, all that crap. And they just want to get back to watching golf. The TORRAs had better winners this year., bigger names, you don't have the pavans and you

know, Wyndham Clark winning a 54 hole event in the rain at Pebble Beach, you haven't had as many of those. So it's a little bit of that. And like the tour's product is just overall, I think it's been pretty good this year. I mean, you look at some of the signature events. I mean, obviously, Scottie's had a really strong year. Rory in the early part of the year really drove the numbers. Like, the numbers at Pebble were great. JT winning a signature event at Hilton had those numbers

were great. I think it helped that it was on Easter. But yeah, overall, I think the tours had a pretty strong year from a ratings perspective. Now, they've been pretty strong this year. So next year, are they going to slide a little bit? Maybe. But yeah, I think overall, 2025 is in pretty strong this year. So like next year, are they going to slide a little bit? Maybe.

But yeah, I think overall 2025 is in pretty strong form. Even through some of these summer months when the numbers typically are a little soft. Yeah, you could convince me easily on the JT stuff, the Scotty. Brian Campbell drawing huge numbers at John Deere. I'm just like, man, something's going on here. Well, again, I'll caution like joke about Brian Campbell being the needle and who was the one rocket or 3M the other week. The numbers of 3M were up like 40% because it was comp to the Olympics last year when

everyone was watching the Olympics, no one's watching a 3M. So I will caution people on that. But yeah, their numbers have been good. Yeah. This episode is presented by Fandul, our go-to for betting all the action as the FedEx Cup playoffs heat up. We're in the home stretch.

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select states gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. What is what are we seeing with like Scotty is emerging into kind of reaching a different stratosphere of a major champion, four time major champion now has been classified as boring, has been called boring by some sports fans, golf fans, casual fans, what is it?

Do you see, is he much of a needle driver? Is that improving kind of his presence in golf tournaments, him blowing away fields? What does that do in terms of a needle driver? Is that improving kind of his presence in golf tournaments, him blowing away fields? What does that do in terms of drawing fan interest? I think it's improving a little bit. He's still not like, obviously to tiger levels in terms of people tuning in to draw numbers. But it's I think it's going to start getting there. If he keeps this up. I mean, we're now in what year

three of this kind of dominance or maybe longer. It's it's kind of to a point of where like, he's got a what five or six shot lead on Sunday at Port Rush and you're kind of like, he's making those par putts on I think seven and eight. You're kind of like rooting on like, instead of like hoping he bogeys a few holes so it's a closer final stretch,

you're almost rooting for him to win by like 10 shots. Just like, cause you're, as a long time golf person, you're just like, this is, this stuff hasn't been seen in a long time. We don't see this anymore. Guy's just dominating. And so I think Scottie, as he continues to do that a little bit more, it will drive television numbers.

But I think still like his personality, yes, he's a little bit of a red ass, like we know he can get upset a little bit, but he's still not to the level of Tiger in terms of just like, Scotty's game is a little boring compared to Tiger's in terms of Tiger would miss fairways, but then his recovery would be so impressive.

Scotty just doesn't play that way. He doesn't hit shots that you're trying to figure out how a human can do that, right? He just hits a lot of really, really good consistent shots, but almost never are you like, how can a person be physically capable of that, which is what Tiger did. So I think I top of winning everything. Yeah, I think I think it might take a little bit more time. Obviously, Tiger, you have the cultural aspect of everything driving that interest to, you know, Scottie's just got to, if he may, I think if he maintains what he's doing,

the casual golf watcher will kind of realize in a year or two, like this guy's like a once in a, truly a once in a generation player. And I have to watch him anytime he's playing right now. I don't know that, that the general like, yeah, your casual golf fan is probably tuning in on a weekend, but like, are you drawing in that guy who's not watching just because Scottie's in the lead? I don't know that we're quite there yet. We, you know, on the TV front, we've been pretty effusive in our praise of the development of the CBS TV product, which if you're a long time listener to the show probably sounds crazy considering how hard we used to rail on their overall product. Is it as noticeable to you as it is to us in terms of the quality of the golf television

broadcasts that they're producing? Yeah, I think there's been a noticeable change, as I said earlier, since Sellers took over, I think it was the start of the 2021 season. Just from a storytelling perspective, they overhauled a lot of their talent. We saw IBF's final event was this past weekend. But if you go back to Peter Costas and Gary McCord moving on and Faldo, they've done a really nice job hiring, I think, too, and filling those roles. I mean, who's better than Dottie, right? Who's better than Trevor in the analyst chair right now? They've hit on those hires and those replacements.

It's smart television. It's not just, yes, we want to see more shots, but it's not just shot after shot. They can really tell stories, too, and help viewers learn. I think that's, you know, they have a good rapport with each other, like, not CBS, but like I was watching the open and Graham McDowell on those broadcasts. He was, you know, having that rapport, he's asking a ton of like, really smart questions to his people who are on the ground, to his fellow analysts.

Like golf fans want to tune in and learn something. And I think you've seen that with CBS over the last number of years from their talent. And then just from a visual perspective, they have a really good stretch of golf. Like everyone's tuning in. You got some nice events. You got some nice events.

I mean, if you're like, what's better than pebble, you know, when the weather's nice, obviously, they they deal with the some weather issues there over the years. But like, when the weather's nice, I mean, you got Rory coming down the stretch this year, it's in kind of prime time on the on the East Coast, when everyone's cold and wet and everything. So they've got some nice events, but they can they can tell really good stories. But yeah, to me, it's been it's been super noticeable.

I think talking with sellers over the last few weeks, just kind of like what to expect next. They just let the technology drive what they're going to do. So as technology keeps getting better, you're going to see, you know, CBS specifically talking about them, you're going to keep seeing them innovate and do bigger things. If you look at when, again, the tour kind of debuted this drone tracer, this moving drone tracer at Travelers 2024. I mean, it started out as just a kind of

the drones moving a little bit, it's tracing the ball really cool. But if you look from that compared to where they are now with the speed at which the drone's moving to the AR augmented reality graphics that they've overlaid on the screen, again, it just helps the viewer learn a little bit. Now, I will caution. You don't want it to be too busy. But as much as they can innovate and help the viewer learn,

I think it's going to help. Keeps your eyes on the screen. Draws you in. They got the picture in picture they got going in there. Now, honestly, like I should have said this last night on the pod, I was really impressed with just, I feel like they brought Sedgfield to life this past week, you know, like with the green slopes around the greens and the lower camera angles in a

way that I had not fully ever appreciated. And Sedgfield is not a golf course that you think about like, in that way. And we should because it's you know, it's their job to bring that all to life and all that. So it, I say all that to, you know, not to, no, I'll walk you into a hornet's nest here, but it feels like, it feels like NBC is due for kind of one of these same overhauls in terms of,

and I don't just mean Tommy Roy out. I just mean in some way I need to feel like they are making an attempt to modernize their broadcast because it had gotten stale at CBS and they've totally refreshed it and I'll sign off on it. And I don't know when I started feeling like it's got stale at NBC. I don't know if it's when Johnny left. I don't know if it's, you know, since we didn't have any color person really in the chair and they're rotating that out. But it just seems like they're kind of caught between release patterns, if you will. They don't, you know, don't really seem to have a cogent plan. And I'm just curious if you think that seems to be a priority on their end,

like, are we going to see changes and overhauls in any way of how NBC presents their product? Changes and overhauls? I don't know. I mean, I think it's, I think it kind of goes back like, how are they going to work with the tour? Like is the tour really gonna push them like To make some of these changes in terms of just like not necessarily like talent overhauls or anything like that I mean NBC's had a fair amount of talent overhaul in the last few years with Johnny leaving to now Zinger's gone to You know Malby and coke and those guys aren't there anymore I don't know from a talent or like I love you know, smiley on a broadcast. I think it's great. I think Hicks is really good still

too. So they have I think they have some some some decent talent there. What Tommy's gonna do from a production standpoint, I don't know. I mean, Tommy's been there, Chris, I don't know, a long time producing those golf telecast. So I think it's what is the what is the tour do to help them, you know, provide to them, like we've seen with some of the drone tracing and that sort of thing. But in terms of wholesale changes, I don't know. I tend to think I tend to think CBS has some of the better

events, just from a pure scheduling standpoint. So like that's another question mark of when this schedule shifts around, like we think it's going to shift around in a couple of years, is NBC have been a factor of that? You know, I don't know, we can go five years down the road to when the Tours media deals are up and like, what does that future look like? That's where, I mean, we've seen what they can do when they have the toys like players championship is

their easily their breath, their best telecast of the year. They got all the bells and whistles, a lot less commercials and, uh, you know, it, it flows really well. It just, I don't, I don't, I never know where to point the finger. I guess, is it on the producer? Is it on the, the, the higher ups at NBC? Is it on the tour for not setting them up for success? I don't know.

And I'm kind of, I don't really care. It's kind of there's more of a blame here. Everyone that when here, they hear our critiques of that, and they think we're targeting them in particular. And it's like, all we really want is this to land at somewhere where we think is possible, because we've seen on the CBS side is kind of where I net out on all this. And, and I, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but because I don't think know if anybody really knows, you know, kind of the transition that NBC and

Golf Channel are going through with this versant thing. I mean, we saw the logo four separate times on the Open Championship broadcast. And I haven't met really anyone that can describe to me what's going on with this thing or what it means for any of us. Do you have any insight? Yeah, it's not super sexy. I mean, basically, Comcast spun off some of these cable networks while they're still profitable. So you're talking about CNBC Golf Channel is one of them USA,

which is why I believe it was in the USA window when they were promoting Versant so much because Versant is the kind of umbrella company that's going to be that holds these companies, these networks like USA CNBC Golf Channel. Honestly, Chris, I don't think it's going to, there's not going to be too much change that you're going to notice right away or in the near future. The deal itself hasn't even closed yet, but you've got Mark Lazarus who's running this company. He's a big golf guy. He has said that golf is going to remain really kind of maybe not at the forefront, but it's going to be a prominent part of their products.

You know, in the short term, it might be small stuff that you see. Let's go back to women's Scottish Open, right? Lottie Wodes contending and where do they put that final round? They put it on CNBC. That's kind of a good example of CNBC is one of these networks with Inversant. Golf Channel is one of these networks with Inversant and so you've got CNBC is getting more into sports and you've got Golf Channel who is kind of overseeing the programming of that tournament and they're saying all right how do we work together and how do we get the final round of the women's Scottish Open on linear television? Again, a very important, you know, place so people can watch it was not scheduled to be on anywhere.

It was only on streaming, which everyone loves streaming. But everyone also wants to see it on linear TV. So that's a good example of Golf Channel and CNBC two versant companies working together to get sports, not only sports, women's sports, in kind of a prominent place on CNBC on a Sunday morning when it's not going to have any other like really important programming. So that's a good example recently of those kind of versant companies working together. But again, like I think Sam Flood talked to James Colgan from golf.com. James does great work, read him a lot.

And I think Sam basically told James, you're not even gonna notice a difference on golf channel in the near future. So it can be a little bit dry to break down the Versa, but in the near term, we're not gonna see too many front-facing changes from that, I don't think. And we haven't talked about it much because I don't think it's important to viewers,

but then at the open, them emphasizing it as much as they were, I was like, all right, well, now we kind of need some more information as to what this might mean. All right, help me out with, you know, for as much as we talked about this kind of new structure, for-profit arm of the PGA Tour, PGA Tour Enterprises, I honestly don't even know when the last time on the pod

we talked about PGA Tour Enterprises was. I mean, I think when it came out, it was, I understood it and I could be an idiot here of there was going to be a CEO of PGA Tour Enterprises and there was going to be a commissioner of the PGA Tour. It seems like Roll App is both of these roles or the commissioner. What's that? He's the boss. He's the boss. So is he going to be the commissioner of the PGA tour and or does the commissioner role change?

And he's just the CEO of the PGA. What's changing? Yeah, Brian's the CEO. And it's still a little bit unclear on what they're going to do with that commissioner role. You know, when Monahan exits at the end of 2026, I think, is at least the plan right now. You know, I've heard that it may become sort of a ceremonial position where it's like this,

the commissioner is shaking hands and kissing babies and doing everything, but Brian's the boss. And everyone kind of reports up into him. So I think that's how it's going to operate. Like he is the CEO of like, yeah, you could break it down into the nonprofit and the for-profit. He's the boss. He's overseeing everything. He's going to be the one that ultimately decides where this $1.5 billion goes into, wherever that may be. All reports to this point are they haven't used any of that money yet. Hope it's in a high yield savings account or something. I hope they're getting a pretty good return at this point. But yeah, I mean, so it's, so Brian will be the one that kind of decides where all that

money, where that capital is kind of dispersed. Well, it makes sense to me, I think, to, like, it didn't make sense to me for Monahan to be, I think Monahan's good at sponsor relations. Like he knows everyone's name. He's very, very clearly good at getting money in the door, like handled. And that's what the commissioner job was for many, many, many years until a threat came in. And it didn't make sense for Monahan to be handling all of that. Just from a skillset standpoint, I think that that became obvious. And I, so this current structure does seem to make more sense. I guess it's kind of, I don't know,

funny to me that it took the tour this long to kind of figure out this structure. But I don't think that's been talked about a whole heck of a lot of how this commissioner job is changing one and how there's a brand new role in terms of the CEO. Because I always read the CEO of PJ Tour Enterprises to be more along the front of what you're talking about there with how to deploy this capital and figure out what the for-profit arm is going to be. But there's also this whole running of the 501C6, which sounds like RollApp is going to be still heavily, heavily involved in. Yeah, I think really is. I mean, I think if you just look at like what major sports leagues have CEOs and commissioners, right? And I think there might be a trend into the future of like, do you have commissioners in the future of these sports leagues? Or do you just name a

CEO? Because the business is such a big part of it all. You just name a CEO, and then you have everyone underneath them. So that he kind of manage everything. And you have someone who's going to manage competition, and you have someone who's going to manage, you know, broadcast and all that. So I think that's how probably how the tour is looking at it. I don't know that they've decided in terms of like, yeah, there's going to be an official commissioner in 2027. But that's what we've heard to this point.

Because it is, I honestly have never thought about it from this perspective. I'm just Googling to make sure I understand like the terminology there. But like the commissioners of the major sports organizations are intermediaries between players and ownership groups. I mean, it's yeah, like, and that's what golf does not have or hasn't had until now that we have this equity system that, again, haven't heard a whole heck of a lot about that as to, you know, purposely trying to keep it under wraps in terms of how much money Roy McElroy got or how much equity he got in dollar value. Has that already been distributed?

And what are the routes for future guys to be able to earn any of that? The equity stuff, man, has been, you know, ironclad in terms of there's been no information. Like, certainly the tour hasn't put out any official information. There have been no leaks. Player managers typically have been very like tight on this. They're not going to of course, they're not going to talk about their players and what's going out. There's been almost no information, not for lack of trying on my part of figuring out how this equity works out. I

mean, it's a pretty friggin, you know, important piece of all this. You saw, you know, Adam Schupack's piece a few weeks back on some of these older, you know, older players who were included and some who were notably not included, but yeah, it's been, it's been pretty tough, uh, sledding when it, when it comes to figuring out how the equity is actually being split up among the players, because I mean, I really don't like, how do you draw the line? split up among the players. Cause I mean, I really don't like, how do you draw the line? It is like, it is a right place, right time situation

for a lot of these guys, right? I don't know if the, you know, whatever the, the top 36 guys, whatever it is, allegedly that are the current top 36 ish, that are getting some of the biggest portion. One, a lot, that could change very heavily from where, when this was laid out maybe two years ago or whenever it was between then and now. And how do you set a path for the Jackson

Coivins to be able to earn equity? And I think people, there's two parts here. The cash is in the business, but that's not like what is getting distributed here. It is an equity piece in the for-profit business. So it's really about whatever they're gonna do with that a billion and a half dollars, which again, I'm not well versed in a lot of this stuff, but what was the point of raising all that money if it's just sat there for a couple of years, unless there are concrete plans in place

to buy the PGA of America, buy the Ryder Cup, buy golf courses, buy resorts. What do you see as a realistic, not even based on inside information, like a hypothetical path for the for-profit arm of PGA of America? Yeah, I mean, one, it's given the players equity piece, right? That's kind of their, they want to give the players a piece of the pie, and that was kind of the selling point to a lot of it was that but yeah if you look Chris I mean look at the the let's say five most prominent events and men's golf you've got the masters you've got the US Open you got the PGA Championship the Ryder Cup and the Open Championship and does the PGA Tour own any of that? They don't. So like I think that, that's reason number one or big fish number one that they have to try and go after if they can with

some of this capital, you know, can they buy the Ryder Cup, which, you know, this event in New York next month is going to be like, I'm certainly excited to go never been to Ryder Cup. Part of me is dreading it for the logistical nightmare that it's going to be for the you know, the amount of people just that that that product right there, the Ryder Cup has to be something that they talked about in terms of buying. We've talked about, you know, earlier golf channel being split off onto this verse of like, a lot of speculation, like does the tour try and buy a golf channel? They just built this new studios in Panavidra. What all's going in there, right?

Can they buy a golf channel and put it in there? But I would think with the majors and the Ryder Cup holding such places of prominence in the game, that has to be an area that they're looking at as a place where they can kind of deploy some of this. Yeah, I'm just, I guess maybe a little surprised. Maybe they just done a really good job of keeping everything tight

lipped, but I have not heard a rumor or you know, this is going on. It almost just seems like that's why I kind of wanted to big reason I want to chat with you today is it feels like everything outside of the golf has died down first last several months. Like there's not big, you know, other than roll app kind of coming in, there's not been massive, of course stories. And that's what it all that it was for several years here now. And I guess I'll probably have more PGA tour questions for

you throughout this, but how are, as we're sitting here in August of 2025, how are we feeling about live and where it's going and how it affects the, I guess, starting there, how it affects the PGA tour. If I was to guess two years ago, I would say it was affecting things a lot more than it currently is. Is there a path back to Liv getting a lot more headlines

and what might that look like? What's that look like on the contract front for them? How are you seeing these next six to nine to 12 months playing out for Liv? I mean, Liv keeps kind of doubling down on what they're doing. They're raising their purses. they're going to $30 million a tournament now with that extra money to be put back into the

teams. Now, again, like someone pointed out last week, they're like, are they kind of just moving money from from one pocket to the other? Like, yes, in a way, but the reason they're doing that is because, like they're doubling down, they want their teams to get more money so they can operate on their own. That's the whole point of live is this team stuff. And so they feel like, you know, raising the purses and you know, right now, only the top three each week

get any, any prize money. So like, how are these other teams supposed to operate, sign sponsorships, sign players, if they're not making any money. So, Lyft keeps kind of doubling down on that stuff. Like they've hired Chris Heck, who ran Aston Villa for the last few years, longtime associate of Scott O'Neill, the new CEO, and US Team Sports to be their league president. They've hired the chief marketing officer of Pepsi. They've hired a lot of impressive people.

How it affects the PGA Tour, marketing officer of Pepsi. They've hired a lot of impressive people. How it affects the PGA Tour, I think if you would ask anyone from the PGA Tour right now, they would say we've kind of weathered the early storm, and they're just kind of doing their own thing right now. Like the PGA Tour would probably say that it's not worried about Liv, because the PGA Tour is by and large a US product,

a US tour, And to this point, Liv has not really resonated at all in the US, at least from a television perspective. We haven't seen good numbers, even though they're on Fox this year. A lot of that's due to them playing in funky windows on FS2, or 3 in the morning. But even in their events that they've had,

on Big Fox, on FS1, their numbers haven't, you know, translated. And so I think if you were to ask anyone from the tour right now, they're just doing their own thing and they're not really worried about Liv. Even if they were to sign, like, you know, Liv signed Kamp Smith at the height of Kamp Smith. They signed John Rahm at the height of John Rahm. If you ask anyone at the tour right now, you might say they would want Rahm, Kapka and DeChambeau. And outside of that, they would probably be like, Oh, we don't really, you know, we'll create

a new a new Ludwig Ober. Terrell Hatton. Yeah, Hatton's been playing great this year. But I think the tour feels like it just can create stars kind of out of nowhere. Jet look at Jackson Coyvan like three years ago, your college golf junkies know who he was, but I didn't know who he was. And now he's finished top 10 in his last three tour events as an amateur. So I think the tour feels pretty good about their standing and be able to do that. Well, that's where it gets interesting, I guess, in terms of what is coming here,

because there's kind of a cliff. And I don't know exactly when everybody's contract ends, but I know some guys have contracts that end after this year, some guys have contracts that end after next year. Rob's contract, I believe, is much farther extended. I believe that was a six-year deal originally, so he would have four more years in theory after this year. But it, the only way this model works is if you are continuing to pick up massive young talent and get them into your ecosystem and extend them for a long period of time, or else you had the Dustin Johnsons that are kind of aging out. Cam Smith, I wouldn't say is aging out, but his game is tanked completely since he's been at live. And you have walking Neiman winning all these events, but you don't really

have a pipeline of talent that's, you know, replacing itself, you know, to put context in all those wins, all that would say like, you're telling me they bought they sign this person, they brought in this person, they bring in all these really impressive executive people, that would lead me to say they're going to have a massive spending spree this offseason for talent or attempt to recruit people. But I feel like we've not heard many, you know, heard much even

even fake rumors about any of that recently. Yeah, I don't get this. I do get the sense that they'll sign some new players this offseason. But I don't know that it'll be like, you know, a big, big name. And again, if we go back to their signings of, of Ram and Cam Smith and those guys, like, who would they sign that would really, you know, I think you're talking about a handful of guys that would be like, whoa, the tour is really like, you know, it's Scotty, it's Rory. If they

were to sign a Spieth, a Spieth's game is not what it what it once was, but the guy still, you know, moves a needle with respect to television and people still love talking about him. But I think, you know, moves a needle with respect to television, and people still love talking about him. But I think, you know, one other thing is that every all the talk is that the belt has been tightened from a spending perspective. You know, in those early days, it's like PIF was just, you know, funding all those big signings. And now it's kind of back where again, we go back to this team aspect

of live, the onus is a little bit more on these teams to sign these players. And so like, you know, the Ironheads, are they going to go to the bank and spend eight figures on a player? Probably not. That's where it's like, yes, I believe, I believe live will sign more players, maybe PGA Tour players this off season, but I think it'll be along the lines of who they signed last year. They signed Tom McKibben, right, who had his PGA Tour card locked up. Some of these younger guys who they think they can build into big global stars, which is where they're putting most of their focus on international.

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This is a path to becoming a better golfer in a very efficient way. I know all of us do not have all the time in the world to practice and train. Thestacksystem.com slash nlucode, no laying up. Trust me on this one. Back to the pod. It's amazing, you know, in the fourth season of this, I still, despite covering it nearly every week, I don't think I've gotten a clearer picture ever as to what they're trying to accomplish with this with this league, right? I don't do

you do you have a clearer picture? Like, they tout this, you know, we're going to get on PJ tour is going to own the US and we're going to kind of dominate the world. Is there measurable data that supports this claim in any way? Like are we in a bubble here in the US and don't understand how popular Live is? People tell me that on the Everything app, but I kind of struggle to see the strong evidence of that.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, they are, I'll give them credit. They certainly are global, right? They're, you know, their event in Australia is very popular. They just announced recently that they're playing in South Africa next year, which is great. Like, I love to see high level, you know, golf played in some of these other, you know, other countries. Right. Like, I'd love to see the PGA Tour go and play more internationally. But again, it goes back to a player problem, right?

Like the Spieths and Shufflers of the world They don't want to be traveling all over the world to play golf. They want to play in the US They want to hand pick a few events and then play there. So Liv, you know if Liv It keeps putting the onus on international like they'll keep doing that I think they're playing I believe four or five events in the US next year and their other nine or ten are Elsewhere so that's where they're putting their focus. Yasser is a big believer in the team format. And it seems like they're going to keep doubling down on it.

What so Scott O'Neill, I think he I think he sounded a lot like Norman with some of his statements recently about reapplying for OWGR points. I believe part of the quote in there was that their application addresses the outstanding questions that exist to support a more global all encompassing and accurate ranking system. Is there anything different with this application to the OWGR that makes you think that Liv is on the path to getting points? I don't know specifically what's in the application. I will say

like all the talk kind of at Port Rush and recently lived, played in the UK, there is talk that the OWGR wants to like, there's momentum toward them getting points. Now again, they're not gonna be getting the full, you know, amount of points that you get for a PJ tour win, right? But I think it's maybe in the OWGR, a lot of discussion around OWGR these days Chris is that

it's irrelevant now, which is not a place where it wants to be. I think if you're if you're Trevor and you are you and you're the OWGR, it's probably in your best interest to figure out a way to give live some form of points, just so everyone moves on and says like, Hey, it's not irrelevant anymore. Because right now, people don't really give it much creep. Again, I don't know what specifically is in their application, but the OWGR straight up said that it listed out the reasons why it didn't accept Liv's initial application. So in my mind, it's like, if you're going to apply again,

why would you apply and there'd be nothing different to it? Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time, which maybe they are, but there has been some momentum toward them getting points as soon as next year. So we'll see how that plays out. It could be a lot of different things. Format, I know the team aspect of it was a big reason

why the OWGR did not accept that application, you know, two years ago. Do they go to 72 holes? I know it's live, it's 54 holes, but like, did they go to 72? I had one agent, he told me, he said, if I were them, I'd play 92 holes, if it got me world ranking points. Like, just, you know, they need, because that's what they promised the players when they signed up. They said, we'll give you OWGDR. You're going to have pathways to the majors. And right now, like as these guys start losing access to the majors, they have to find a way to get points beyond

playing Asian tour events and traveling all over the world playing TV world tour events. They have to figure out a way to get those. So I would say that a lot of things are probably on the table to help them, you know, get those points that they can. I think for that to happen, OWGR would have to almost they have to rip up their own blueprint, which they have pretty clear language in there as to the minimum requirements for

qualification, right. And I don't think it worked in Liv's favor that they had this relegation zone of all these players that supposedly getting cut as if they were, you know, not top 100 on the PGA Tour and losing stats. And they just resigned them right back up. Like it doesn't seem to me like they've met that qualification aspect that I think is the only, like the team thing doesn't bother me nearly as much in terms of how hard it would be to give them points as the lack of qualification in the precedent that sets. Now, it is unprecedented times, maybe the OWGR, which is again represented by the PGA Tour, the DP World Tour, Augusta National, the RNA, the USGA, International Federation PGA Tours, it's all like that's who is representing that governing board. I guess we've seen individual steps in some of these tournaments to include

live players in their events, that I don't know if they're going to want to do that and also adhere to giving them points, right? It almost seems like they've come up with their own ways of addressing Yes, we're aware of Joaquin Neiman should play in the Masters. He's one of the 50 best players in the world. Here's a spot for you through this way, US Open. Here's a spot for you that the top player that's not already qualified, like you're clearly good enough. It just like figuring out the

10th is the 10th best player good enough for an exemption is where I feel like their system kind of falls apart in their application. To me, again, don't know what's in it, just like you don't know what's in it. Yeah, again, I mean, I think there was a story today, Chris from from Jimmy Corrigan from the Telegraph about like Ian Poulter, despite him being a team captain, if he gets relegated, he's done. I haven't read the piece,

but I think I saw it on the episode. It's those sorts of things that you can't have Bubba Watson finish outside the points or whatever qualification and then just come right back and play. Brandon Grace last year well below the qualification line and then just come back and play. It's a meritocracy, or it needs to be to get those points. That's what it has to go to. So it has to be a little bit more cutthroat. On the PGA Tour front, what can we expect schedule-wise for next year? You've been, you track this very closely

and you've kind of released a tentative schedule, even though the tour is probably going to be releasing that here in the next couple weeks, I guess, for next year. But what are some changes that would stick out to you for next year's schedule? I think the big one that I reported Open Championship week is that they're expected to go back to Trump Doral. So like my expectation is that's going to be I believe I don't have the schedule in front of me. I think it's the week before truest, which is the week before the PGA championships. So you're talking about two weeks for the PGA. I believe it's going to be a signature

event. So that's a pretty big, that's a pretty big one to have, you know, two signature events, potentially, back to back ahead of a major. And then the other side of that moving that event there is you'll have the two Texas events that are back to back after the PGA. So that's one thing. You'll have back to back signature events

earlier in the year with, again, I don't have it in front of me. I've got it right here. Per your tweet, yeah, the Phoenix, the Phoenix open. I'm sorry, the Pebble Beach Pro-Am February 12 through 15. And the Genesis invitation will be February 19 through 22nd in the back to back weeks. So that's it. Yeah, so those are the really big things, you know, next year, the calendar is getting shifted back about a week just, just based on where the calendar, you know, they don't want to start a tournament on New Year's Day, so everything's a week later.

That's why Phoenix and Pebble are kind of flipping spots around the Super Bowl. You'll have, farmers will be back on a Sunday finish next year instead of a Saturday finish. And I know CBS is excited about that, having Nance actually on site instead of from Arrowhead Stadium, calling that AFC Championship game. So they're excited about that having Nance actually on site instead of from Arrowhead Stadium calling that AFC championship game. So they're excited about that. But yeah, by and large,

I think like I said, Chris, I think you probably 2027 or potentially 2028 is when you might see some more, some more schedule stuff move around. I mean, like it wouldn't shock me if that that derail event maybe, maybe it moves into the Florida swing. Next year, it's in late April, early May. But maybe the following year, it gets moved into that Florida swing to have some more synergy with your Palm Beach events, your APIs, and that sort of thing. Soterios Johnson If I was to try to read the tea leaves of why that event is coming back, if I was trying to read the political tea leaves there of, is it favorable for the PGA tour to get Trump back in the bucket with the PGA tour versus not being a constant on

the live tour? A lot of his courses were hosting live events. Is there a play there in terms of, I know they've tried to involve him with negotiations with Liv. It didn't seem to go very well for a variety of reasons, but is there a bigger play? Should people be surprised to see this returning? I don't know if, you know, I did get that question a lot after that is like, you know, is this an olive branch to Trump? It might be, but I think it's more of a thing of the PGA Tour have an opportunity to add a course that, I mean, they played, they played it throughout for, I think, 50 think 50 years right or more than 50 years it's a golf course that people know it's a golf it's a golf course that people like and so the tour I think that's been one of its

big leverage points with live is that they have all this history and they can play at the harbor towns they can play at the Rivieres they can play at the paddle beaches and so like if you can add Doral, which is, I mean, let's be real, Chris. When they left Doral, it was probably a top five non-major golf tournament, right? Oh, it was a big deal, yeah. It was a pretty big tournament.

So I think just the opportunity to add that back with Doral not being on live schedule next year, certainly they weren't going to play, if it was on live schedule, they wouldn't play there. But I think not having it on live schedule just opened the door. So again, there might be some Trump undertones there. It's easy to kind of make that connection,

but I don't know that that was like the end all be all reason that they're going back to Durell. As a fan kind of seeing how much turmoil like the PJ tour has gone through over the past years, I guess I've been surprised at how the timing of some of the releases or announcements of these long contract extensions from some of these sponsors, they're very clearly getting a lot of value out of this and have decided that's part of their future regardless of whether they know who's

going to be playing in some of these events in the late 2020s and into 2030 and things like that. That picture is a little bit more clear now, but who sticks out to you as a sponsor that you think gets a ton of value out of their deal or some that maybe don't get enough value out of their deal or whether it be squeezed in the schedule or, if I was to ask that, what sticks out? I think from a sponsor perspective,

Travelers always pops into mind. Now like travelers is paying a lot of money as a signature events sponsor, but that event always pops even being the week after a major championship. And I'll give those guys credit like Andy Bissett, you go out to tour events like there's no no other tournament director or sponsor CEO who's on the road as much as that guy is. There's like the only tournament directors name I know that I, that I don't have a person that people talk about that guy all the time. Yeah. Andy Bissette, Nathan Grubb, like they do a great job. They're on the road every week. So they really hustle to get the players that they get the week after

major, obviously it's a signature event. So the players are going to show up anyway, but that would be one. I think, you know, and John Deere, they love their spot on the calendar. They just extended through 2030 like yes, it's a smaller event, but Some of these events the you know, full field tournaments They've seen their they've seen their events elevated a little bit as the tour has gotten more cutthroat You've seen more guys commit and play some of these summer events just to secure their status for next year more guys commit and play some of these summer events just to secure their status for next year. You had got like look at

Wendham this past week and you had some guys like, like Spieth play it to get into the top 50. So he's, you know, exempt to some of these signatures next year, you had some bigger names playing. That's a byproduct of the tour, like I said, becoming a little bit more cutthroat in terms of the ones that maybe haven't, you know, benefited as much. It's easy to pinpoint the ones that are kind of squeezed by the schedule. Again, you look at some of these Texas events and like if you're, if you're Nelson and Colonial

next year, I forget which one is which in terms of order. But after if you go signature event, Doral, signature event, truest championship, PGA championship, and then it's truest championship, PJ championship, and then it's it's Nelson Schwab and then more. It's not at least like Nelson just signed a deal with CJ through like 2033. But if you're Charles Schwab, like that's a pretty that's a pretty tough stretch to be at the end of. And I don't know what's behind that in terms of what's coming after that on the schedule.

But goes Memorial Canadian Open, US Open Travelers. So then another signature. So it's like, how are you getting, aside from your guys like Sheffler and Spieth who live in that area, it's a pretty tough sell. So Colonial, that tournament, that's one where the sponsor is up after 26. There's been no extension there.

I'm not trying to say that they're exiting, but there have been a fair amount of other deals that were up in 26. You look at Zurich was up in 26. John Deere was up in 26. Valspar 3M, and they have all extended to 2030 at this point. So certainly, some of those deals that are coming up in 26, they're already heavily in talks to renew. Or, you know, in the case of like farmers, farmers is moving on, and will not be back with the tour after 26. Interesting. Any other names that stick out that will that are

on the on the on the cusp of potentially rotating out? So you've got I mean, you've got some really longtime sponsors, again, they're through 26. So I'm not saying that they're not going to renew but Sony is one. For the Sony Open, that's been like, that's one of the tour's longest running sponsors that they've been on that event. Sony is one.

Wendham, where they played last week, that's like the fifth longest running sponsor on tour. That goes back to 2007. So that's a big one. And then there are a couple others, like I said, Colonial with Charles Schwab is one of the other ones. The tour's done a pretty good job of locking up a bunch of other deals like through 2030.

So there is some sponsor turnover, like there's going to be sponsored turnover. You look at here in Charlotte, Wells Fargo balked at paying $22 million a year to sponsor the Wells Fargo championship. I don't think anyone would fault them for balking at that. And then the tour gets truest to come in and spend more than that. It's like, we've joked about like the tour being able to sell like, you know, sponsor the weather delay was at Wyndham and they're sponsoring that. So like the tour can really sell. And yeah, yeah. Even if some of these deals expire without a renewal, like chances are, they're going to, they're going to find a replacement.

Several years into the signature event model, would you view it as a success and something that's, that's here to stay with a new regime coming in and you know, maybe with the live threat dying off a little bit kind of is this a permanent structure here to stay for the PGA tour? I mean, it's hard to say it's permanent anytime you have well, again, we go back to like you change one thing and it

unravels everything. These sponsors have come in and they've signed these long term deals true assigned a seven year deal here in Charlotte with the assumption that that's going to be a signature event. Travelers signed on in Connecticut with the assumption it's going to be a signature event. So I'll say like, I don't think anything should be off the table. Any anytime you have a new CEO coming in, I'm sure he's looking at that. But uh, but yeah, you got to kind of, you have to kind of overturn the apple cart. If you, if you say, well, we're going to start rotating signature events,

doing this and that. That's not as easy. Is it a success? I think it's been a success in terms of you've had good winners for these events by and large. Occasionally, you have a lower name, someone you're not as familiar with when. But you've had bigger winners.

From a pure event standpoint. I don't like it. Like I just I'm a golf nerd. I love to you know in Charlotte like I used to love to go to the to the Wachovia championship and the Guelhava championship and show up at 630 in the morning and the range be packed and like going there last year for Wells Fargo when it was a signature event like I get there pretty early,

I get there at seven o'clock and there's no one on the golf course, there's no one on the range. And it's just like, it's just disappointing that you don't have like, you know, 150 guys there. Like to me, that just makes it feel a little bit bigger. You know, flip side of that, like you hear all the talk every week about like, you want the best players playing every week, you want to know that they're going to be there. And so like part of the way you get at that is by having smaller fields and having no cuts. And so it's kind of hard to have it both ways. I think maybe the fields could increase a little bit. Maybe they could, you know, I don't even know Chris, is there a cut at? So it's only some of the like the Memorial Genesis. I should know that. No, there's a small cut at some of these like some

of the ones that are like the tiger and Bay Hill as well like the three that are I forget how they classify that but the fact that it's tiger and Arnie and Jack's events. They have small cuts. I think that's a good a good thing for it. But it's also like 100 players and have a cut. Yeah, I still am like all right, if I'm a youngster, and I'm a huge Colin Moore, Califan, and he has two rough days, and I was in school for both of those. And I didn't get to watch him. I

can, I can go out and watch him early on a Saturday, even if he's not on T, I don't know if he's hurting anything by being out there is where I think like where they're going with that. I know people, you know, hate hate the lack of a cut and the lack of drama around the Friday round and seeing a guy 40 shots off the lead play in the weekend. I get that. But at the same time, I think it's a little bone to throw to what you're talking about for the in-person experience. You know, that's not going to like the signature events are a television product the way I view it. Like it is meant to let's get some names on the TV on the

broadcast to help drive some ratings. Whereas I think you can kind of throw in some bones towards the folks that are there in person in the hospitality there in person, I think kind of fits in with the overall model. And I've been listen, I like to rail on the tour for anything. I've been really impressed with kind of the churn of the signature events. And, you know, about about 32 out of the 50, you know, make it an 18 new guys play in. I'm like, there's not been a glowing

example of a player that's played amazing golf and hasn't gotten into these events and gotten the opportunity to grab the, you know, get in the cash booth and grab the money. So I think you've had by and large, the players have continued to play in them. I know you had Rory skipped two or three this year, I believe. So it's like, okay. So, you know, so that's, you know, that's, that's probably a little bit of a concern, I guess, when you've got top players skipping. But again, like these guys, they don't need the money. Like, like they want to play. It goes back to like, if

this event this week was not in Memphis, and if it was at a classic course somewhere else, like would Rory be playing? I don't know that he would be, but I'd say there'd be a greater likelihood that he would be. I would think so. Is there a world where, I mean, Monahan is scheduled to stay through the end of 2026.

Is there a world where you could see him getting bought out or released from his PGA Tour commitments earlier than that? Or do you think it's more realistic to expect Monty to be here through all the way through the end of next year, which is a long ways away? It feels like a long way. It's not that long. I mean, yeah, it's possible.

I haven't heard anything saying that he would be. I mean, I think one thing you have to think about is that strategic sports group, a lot of them are buddies with J Monahan. Yep. And it's like that's his that's his crew. And so like, they're probably gonna protect him as much as possible. And that's how you've seen this kind of, you know, plan lay out for like, you know, I've heard, you know, going back, TC has mentioned it on the pod a bunch, like, I've heard going back two years, I feel like at this point, like, it was either as soon as a deal with PIF, you know, happened, Jay would kind of not go away, that sounds rough, but like kind of there would be an exit plan. Either

when that happened, or when a new CEO came on board, there would be an exit plan for Jay. And so I think they'll probably just execute that to its end. Again, it's possible that he's moved out, you know, earlier than that. And then who knows what his day to day responsibilities are like now on, you know, middle of August, as we move forward and what they'll be like for the next year plus, at this point, if he does get to the end of that contract. But at this point, Chris, I haven't heard anything saying otherwise. So we'll see how that plays out over the next year plus. Yeah, I'd heard from unbelievably good sources, like end of 2025 was going to be the end. And then they announced, yeah, it's going to actually end of 2026. And that person was equally as shocked. I'm like, I'm kind of done digging in on this. Like I got, I felt really good about that source and it ended up flipping.

I don't know how you do, I don't know how you do the real journalism stuff, man. It is so fricking hard in this landscape. It can be hard sometimes, it can be hard sometimes. People don't know the answers to this and the people that very well should know will end up giving you information changes very quickly, I guess, but.

Yeah. I think I saw you tweet something about this, but I don't know if you, hopefully you saw the money in sport kind of blurb on the USGA, the status kind of of the USGA negotiations in their new media deal. So I hope I have this right for the listener's sake. The NBC as the current holder of the USGA contract had an exclusive negotiating window to work out a potential extension for that. That has passed and now it is open season for anyone to bid beginning with 2027. Is that right in there? Yeah, 2027 would be the first year. And so this basically started going back to, gosh, 2013 when Fox, Fox had to deal with the USGA. That started in 2015, ran through 2020.

And Fox got out of that deal early. And basically, Fox paid a huge sum of money for that deal. I forget what the actual number was. But they kind of paid over market value, I think, for that deal. NBC got a honey of a deal to pick up the rest of the contract. And so now you're at a point where NBC is used to paying a pretty small amount compared to what Fox is paying. And the USGA is kind of thinking like, well, we want to be at the same level that we were

in the prior deal. Obviously, the television landscape has changed a lot over the last decade since this other deal was negotiated. So there have been a lot of things, you know, we were told that ESPN is in the mix on this deal. ESPN got a big golf, they have a big golf portfolio already with the PGA Championship with the Masters, obviously TGL, all these other things. Burke Magnus, who kind of runs ESPN's a lot of their acquisitions and kind of their sports

rights. He's a big golfer. He's a member at Winged Foot. So they love golf. Wouldn't shock me to see again ESPN be involved on these on this deal with the USGA. NBC may be involved as well going forward just because that window ended without them doing a deal doesn't mean that NBC is not going to be back, they very well could. I think it's the interesting part of it is how

that deal is, it's pitched and how it's sold. There's been a lot of speculation about could they split this deal up. And so, you know, maybe the USGA sells this deal where they've got the US open, the US women's open. And then let's say that the US senior open with maybe tiger plants from US senior opens, selling that as one package. And then the rest of their golf portfolio being something else with another network. So you could have say NBC come in and broadcast those three events. And then you could have maybe a golf channel, a versant come in and broadcast the USM or the Walker Cup, you know, things like that.

So that's the interesting part is how is that how is that going to be split up? I don't know that it will be split up. They might be, you know, taking bids the way that the old package was. But a lot of the speculation has been that they might split that up. And so then it's just it's kind of fun to talk about, like, who would you want to see, you know, pick up USGA rights? Like, I think it'd be really cool. Like, I know Jim, I think Jim Nance called and we've talked about CBS and the great job that they do with golf, like Nance called some of the US Open when it was at Petal Beach

in 2019 with, when Fox had it. I think it'd be really cool to see CBS pick that up. Maybe they partnered again, CBS ESPN, they're partnered on those first two majors. Maybe they partnered on the US Open. And you've got Nance who is a guy who's he's given up college basketball at this point. I think the NFL would probably be his next sport to give up.

And then maybe you have Nance calling the Masters, the PGA, and, you know, and the US Open. Might as well give him the open at that point. Give him that contract. Maybe so. I know he's done some work on the open for some of the overseas networks, but I think it'd be fun to see those guys, what they would do with the US Open. If AI is correct here, Fox signed a 12- deal in 2013 valued at 1.1 billion, which is 93 million per year. They paid 323 million in 2020 to terminate the contract early. That's according to perfect putt, I believe.

So it's interesting. I mean, USGA has been high on the hog for this contract that never really made sense to begin with. And now they kind of got a level set as they're entering. It's kind of like they got live money, honestly, back in 2013. Now they're expecting to live money again, then it's probably not going to be. This was the launch of FS1 and this was Fox's big play. This was going to be their loss. I think the big sticking point, if you remember, is because of COVID, that 2020 US Open was played in September.

And I believe, I think the big sticking point is that Fox wanted to put the US Open on Fox Sports 1, a cable network, instead of a big, again, we're talking about linear TV and why that's so important. And I think that was one of the reasons why they ended up ending that deal. And maybe it just didn't work out for Fox,

which is now back doing live golf. Sometimes, mostly FS2 and FS1. That's a question I had though, as it relates to live, I should have worked this into the live section, but it was sold as a big deal with, it was a massive thing for many years of like, it was once I get on television, just got to get a TV deal. It's going to be, you know, it's going to get all the ratings.

They got a TV deal. It doesn't seem like a big fee was paid for this. It seems like more of a shared cost. I guess Liv is still picking up the cost of the of the telecast. Liv is doing the production. Sharing the ad revenue to that. Is that do I have that right? Yep, I believe so.

How I guess I was very surprised at how few tournaments have been on Fox. And it has been a very abysmal ratings, I think, especially when it's not on Fox. And, again, I don't I go back to I don't know if any of this matters anymore. But it's the kind of the the first real like tangible judgment ability we've had to say, like, are you even rating better than the other sports programs on Fox, and it's not? Is there upward movement in this? Is this a trial year with Fox? Does the deal last beyond this year? I don't even know the answer to that. And do you see

a future where like it's going to be more heavily featured and easily accessible on Fox? Yeah, I think the reason there's been so many various windows and channels that it's been on this year is like the the deal came together Fairly late again, like we talked about these deals like they're done years in advance And so this one came together really late a lot of these other sports windows were already set So it's not like you can just take like the NHRA for example and say sorry guys Like we've got a new golf property coming. We're gonna bump you out So I think their windows will get a little bit better in year two in

terms of what networks they're on. It was it was a win for them to be on Fox just to say like we got to deal with Fox Sports. Like that's that's a big, you know, one of the big networks here in the States. But yeah, their numbers haven't been, I don't think as good as they would, they would have hoped. I mean, even like Sunday or on Sunday, whenever their tournament UK was, was on now what am I thinking? I think it was on Saturday on their Saturday the UK tournament. Even I think it was NHRA and horse racing on

on Big Fox still drew bigger numbers than them. So I don't think they can be happy with with their numbers that they've had when they're on Big Fox. I think they'll get better windows next year. And yeah, I believe it's a two-year deal. So they've got at least one more year of it. For Fox, I mean, a lot of the talk was that for Fox, it was a play to kind of do some work with the Saudis. The 2034 World Cup is in Saudi Arabia, and the television provider for that event hasn't been selected yet. So I think a lot of people thought that by them doing this, you would live.

It was a way for them to do some work with the Saudis and possibly get, you know, gain some advantage toward the World Cup in a few years. But yeah, I would think they'd have to be hoping for better numbers, at least domestically for some of those events that are on in regular windows here in the US. I mean, I'll admit, like I've thought it was a little bit of a curious decision to go head to head and three straight weeks coming up with the PGA Tours playoffs. Again, we talked about the playoffs not having that much

pop. But it's still like you're going head to head. It seems like you would you would maybe want to go with some other events to maybe maybe try and draw some extra eyeballs. But yeah, they have three events coming up here, Chicago this week, Indianapolis next week, and then Detroit to close out their season. Tanner Iskra I mean, just look, and you know, I remember this answer when Mike Wong was the commissioner of the LPGA tour about, I had made a suggestion about like getting LPGA television windows outside of the PGA tour once. and he said that they do better when they're on at the same time of the PGA tour and people are flipping channels

back and forth, which like, makes me wonder is that the live strategy like they've gone up against some massive PGA tour events, I guess and it doesn't make me feel any better as a golf fan like I don't need. I feel like live is at its best when there's a down week on the PGA tour and it's like, oh, yeah, the live term it's actually a little more exciting this week. I'm going to flip that on at least from that's a sample size of one. As a fan, that's a good, that's a good call.

But again, I just don't even know what the ratings are working up towards. They're not relying on the revenue from the advertisers and you know, the interest isn't, isn't there. And there's like, is there any indication that there is actual plans for revenue, for, for, for lift to come in the door? I mean, they certainly have to be planning for that, right? But I think, you know, at this point, what was it again, money and sport reported, I think that their losses were around 5 billion. Was it their losses or that was how much the PIF had, had contributed? I think that had the overall investment through the three.

That was the overall contribution to, you know, their ticket sales, I believe for some of, again, the in-person experience, I think has been pretty good for some events, you know, their Indianapolis event has done well, their Dallas event was okay. Obviously, some of their international events, Adelaide has sold pretty well. But yeah, I think they have to just find a little bit of a better foothold here in the US. And again, it costs a lot of money to put on these events. And they're putting them on on the same level with, you know, I was told I wasn't given a number, but someone told me that Liv spends the same amount to put on an event that the

RNA spends to put on the open championship. That's insane. So that's a pretty big number, whatever that number is. And so you have to have a pretty big return to bring in some revenue on that. Yeah, I believe it. All right. Last kind of topic I want to cover with you, how would you characterize, again, massive changing of the guards on many different league fronts? So I was Mike wants been there a couple years now at the USGA. But we have roll up in we have Craig Kessler in at the LPGA as well as Derek Sprague in at and Don Ray at the at the PGA of America. What do you I feel like the PGA of America is up against some pretty serious headwinds

right? I mean, that their major I think is probably a clear rung below the other ones. You know, they've had the theGA of America is up against some pretty serious headwinds, right? I mean, their major, I think, is probably a clear rung below the other ones. You know, they've had the kind of controversy around payments at the Ryder Cup and the players kind of somewhat, I'm not quite revolting against it, but just some controversy there about loaning talent away from the PGA tour. You know, there's all, you know, they have this Frisco thing, which the KPMG Women's PGA did not go great here and the PGA is headed there in a couple years. I guess, what do you see

as some challenges there in that organization? And how do you see that that playing out in the next several years? Well, I think you just listed their challenges, right? You've got, you know, Rory doing drive by that was so random. That was that was pretty bad. You had the event here in Charlotte was like it felt like all the discussion was about Rory's driver and study the event itself. Their locations for the PGA championship specifically like haven't excited me a lot like Charlotte again is a good

golf course but people love it here in Charlotte but it's we see it a lot. Arana make next year I I don't know a ton of Ironimink, but it doesn't excite me a lot. And then Frisco, I think is, maybe it's a good golf course. I'm not a big golf course guy. But again, it's like, for these major championships, you'd like to see them hosted at iconic courses that everyone can relate to and go back to.

I think the PGA would tell you that they've been pretty happy with the move to May from a commercial standpoint at least like they can kind of build with the Masters, same network partners for the Masters that have the PGA Championship every year. So they feel good about that. The Ryder Cup is a huge commercial success. So they definitely feel good about that. But to your point, in the PGA Championship, I would say is easily the fourth of the four majors. I'd probably put the Ryder Cup above the PGA Championship

at this point in terms of stature. I mean, wouldn't you? Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think there's certainly some challenges. Derek Sprague is a longtime golf guy. I really like Seth Wah. I thought he was really good and did some good things for them. But I do think they have some challenges. Obviously, Craig Kessler left as their chief operating officer to be the new commissioner of the LPGA. He's a really bright guy. I think we'll

do a lot of good things at the LPGA. So that's another kind of hole that the PGA has to fill moving forward. Yeah. It just seems, um, they got, they got a lot to cover between now and Frisco in 2027. It seems like, uh, both from, like a lot of people are going to flip the TV on and, and be concerned about the aesthetics of that golf course. Uh, some of the heat in May, uh, there. And I guess I like the golf course. I think it's a really good golf course. I don't know how much that's going to translate and they got sound like they got a lot of a long way to go on just the this place. This place was

purpose built for PGA championships and Ryder cups and all that. And the consumer experience didn't seem to be great for those people on the ground. All that to say, it just seems like they've gotten hit with negative PR after negative PR here for something. We're going to this Ryder Cup where I think, like you mentioned the logistical kind of issue we're probably running up against of like this kind of uncertainty of how this event is going to go. You know, a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy potentially of just all the fans are going to be crazy

and that's going to make the fans be crazy is yeah, I don't know what to expect. I'm excited, but I'm a little bit anxious, I guess about this event. No, I think it'll be a great event on television. I just like, yeah, it's gonna be a massive event on the ground there at Bethpage. And so I'm a little bit like,

I think the Ryder Cup in Rome got pretty rowdy. That was two years ago. So like, what's it to be like in New York in September with a European team that's bucking its head a little bit and playing some pretty good golf and a US team that it's pretty crazy to think about the construct of the team going back just four years ago at Whistler-Straight and how that's all changed.

And so yeah, I think it's just me, just from a logistical standpoint, it's gonna be a little bit nutty getting up there. Yeah. Well, I will see you up there, my friend. And this is your first ever appearance on the podcast. And I'd say- Yeah, love coming on.

You knocked it out of the park and we really, really appreciate it. We're gonna have to do this more often because people are tired of hearing all of our thoughts. We need to test some of our theories against outside, real journalists that are hitting the pavement and working hard to get some of that information. So, no big fan of your guys and a long time listener, but yeah, first time, first time callers are happy to come on and talk with you guys. Likewise. Ever since you got on the golf beat,

I don't remember the first time I saw your name pop up, but you continued to pound out. You're one of the great newsbreakers and kind of information sources in the game. So I really appreciate you spending some time with us and we'll do it again sometime. For Fandl must be 21 older and present in select states. Fandl is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Visit fandl.com slash RG. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit md gambling help.org in Maryland hope is here visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 803275050 for 24 seven support in Massachusetts, or call 18778 hope and why or text hope and why in New York.