No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1070: NLU Presents - Does The Ryder Cup Captain Matter?

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

The importance and impact of a Ryder Cup team captain has been debated on our pods for as long as we’ve covered the event - but always as a part of a larger discussion around the matches.  In this episode we talk with numerous players, captains, media members and discuss amongst ourselves to try and form a consensus on how a captain’s decision making can affect - or not affect - the result of a Ryder Cup.  Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠⁠⁠⁠ Support our Sponsors: BMW Rhoback Club Glove If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. Yes. Johnny, that's better than most. How about him? It is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different?

Gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up podcast, Sali here. If you listen to this podcast before, you know that the Ryder Cup is one of our favorite subjects to cover. There are reasons why we love to talk about this event so much every year. We see gamesmanship. And Savi looked at me and he said, no, no, it's okay. If this is the way you want to play today, we can play this way. We see strategies. And then Norley will hit the t-shirt on the first.

We know exactly how many times he's going to hit the fairway and how far it's going to be. We see backstabbing. Unfortunately, we have strayed from a winning formula in 08 for the last three Ryder Cups, and nobody here was in any decision. I had a different philosophy as far as being the captain of this team. We see failures. What arrogant asshole would have the event go the wrong way and then say, nope, I'd do everything the same way. I mean, I'd love to start this week over, but that's not possible.

And we see triumphs. 340 to the front edge of the green giving it a go why wouldn't he bumps and that one is on the green the origins of my love for the rider cup go back to 1999 when I was 13 years old Europe had befuddled the allegedly

more talented Americans for the two prior rider cups and the US team was hoping for redemption on home soil at what became known as the Battle of Brookline losing two matches in a row was hurtful to the Americans as they looked for solace at Brookline. Yet for two days, it was entirely a one-sided contest with Europe carrying a 10 to 6 lead into the final day. The U.S. Captain, Ben Crenshaw, ended his press conference

that Saturday night by looking into the camera and issuing this premonition. I'm going to leave y'all at one thought, and I'm going to leave. I'm a big believer in fate. I'll have a good feeling about this. That's all I'm going to tell you. Fate or not, Crenshaw's feeling became reality. The ridge and the green and then only about four paces to the hole.

It's on top of that ridge. Tough put to get the speed right on, John. Leonard could somehow win this hole. The matches are over. The purpose of this episode is to zoom out and look at the role of the Ryder Cup captain with a more comprehensive view than we ever have before in a single episode of this podcast.

We've spoke with a lot of players over the years, but we've never accumulated all of that information into one place like we're doing right here. The captain C is endlessly fascinating to me because it's a role that requires charisma and the deptness at reading the different personalities on the team, the balancing of data and the eye test in your gut and the ability to manage a complex set of logistics.

I spent the better part of the last month with our producer Charles Van Kirk's, belunking in the archives of past interviews I've done with Ryder Cup captains and players, combing through public comments on the subject over the years and even had a few new conversations as well with riders, captains, and other members of the NLU squad. But first, this episode is brought to you by our friends at BMW.

They're not only the official vehicle of no laying up, but also a worldwide partner of the 2025 Rider Cup. We are looking forward to spending some time with them on site at Bethpage next week to experience the ultimate team competition. I'm going to start by asking the simple question at the core of this episode to someone who literally wrote a book on the subject, Mr. Shane Ryan. All right, Shane, part of me was wondering whether I should ask you specifically to come on because I think our views on this are rather similar. Am I just looking

for validation here on my thoughts? And then I thought, well, our views are similar on this because you help shape them. You've shined a light on a lot of this stuff through your book writing and through your podcast, The Writer Cup Run. I know the answer to this question when I ask it, but I want to hear you say it. Does the Ryder Cup captaincy matter? So, yes, it does, Chris. And I'm happy to provide you validation on that front, because this is a conversation we have every single time. I just did a debate with it with my colleague Joel Beale on Golf Digest. But what I would like to do, with your permission, I could explain it in my own words, but you and I both know Jason Aquino, who is the head

of Scouts consulting, who has worked on the statistics all side for the U.S. Rider Cup team for a very long time, but not only that was this Rider Cup junkie when he was a kid who would literally have VHS tapes and grind over them afterward, looking at the highlights. And, you know, he's, he worked with the Defense Department. I mean, he's a brilliant, brilliant person. And so he gave me a quote, which I actually, I wrote my book about the Ryder Cup. And I led the book with this quote. The quote is, you probably heard this in press conferences where losing captains and players will say, well, the other guys just played better. They just hold a lot more puts, a few more chip-ins. and they hold a lot of puts, and they hold chips.

Can you imagine if someone said that in the defense world? The general has to go and explain why he lost the war, and he says, well, the other guys just fought better. Or in the business world, the CEO has to explain why he lost a million dollars, and he says, ah, the other guy just sold more widgets. I got tired of hearing it. Yes, there's variance in results. Yes, there's unpredictability.

But the Ryder Cup fundamentally is an organizational and a management challenge. It's a collective action problem. How do you channel the talents and abilities of a large group of people into a common goal? The reality is that winning Rider Cups is making lots and lots of right decisions enough times to increase your chances of winning. There's an element of who wants to win it more that keeps coming up in these conversations. How do you get from the individualism of? regular professional golf as Patrick Harrington frames it here.

Golfers are individuals and we're pretty selfish at what we do. We're very one-dimensional focused on then all of a sudden you're presented with 12 people and their teams and you have to you know you have to be a captain to everybody. Not everybody thinks like you so you know you've got to make sure you think like them. It's not about what how you think things should be done it's about okay what is each of these players need. What can I give to them? How can I get them to the golf course where they believe in themselves and believe in what this team can do. How do we get from that to what Dodo Mollonari describes here?

It's difficult to put into words. I think you feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself. You see like the, especially the top guys in the team, they, I mean, they literally live for the World Cup. Like even someone like Rory on the Monday night, he gave a, you know, we just said a bit of a chat after dinner with the whole team and, you know, players, vice captains and Luke.

And Rory was trying to explain what the Rial Cup means to him. And at the end of it, he was almost in tears. He was almost like, he was so like ready for it and he just wanted it so badly. And I told him

on the Sunday after we won, I bumped into him on 18 when we were waiting for Shane to finish. And I said, Rory, I just couldn't believe how much this means to you because obviously you still have the masters to win, you still have, you want to win majors, you want to, I thought you were wanting to win mostly majors. And he said, this is, you know, this year, this is the thing that I wanted the most, which, you know, from someone

like him is like, it's powerful. To help provide some historical context for how the Europeans got to the point where the Ryder Cup meant so much to them, let's go back to our conversation with Shane about the beginnings of what we now think of as the European team's Ryder Cup culture. So the U.S. routes Europe in 1981 at Walton Heath. They come back over to the U.S. Tony Jacqueline is now the captain. You know, it doesn't change exactly right there result-wise. The United States wins the 1983 Rider Cup,

but it is very, very, very close. And what happens, like, directly after this is where I have to credit you as a storyteller because I believe this is where the story changes in this moment after this Rider Cup because of what happened with Sevi. Yeah, and I think it, this, you know, it's nice of you to say that about me, but this comes from the European players, too. So the story that always gives me goosebumps, and I'm always, every time I tell it, I'm like, let me, please let me tell this really well, because it's so good, is that in the locker room, in the team Europe locker room after everybody's pretty despondent, everybody's really upset. And we're all gutted. They got back just in time for the presentation prizes.

It was dusk. You're getting dusk. And I thought, what a shout. You know, I saw them all coming back with their bloody tails between their legs. It was shameful. The voice you hear there is of European Captain Tony Jacqueline from our interview in 2021. And then Sevi comes in and he starts saying, no, no, no, this is a great victory. This is a great victory.

We have to celebrate. It was Savvy who said, hey, you know, don't be so sad. This is not a loss. This is a victory for us. This is the best we've ever done in America. and he wasn't wrong but you know he pointed and we took the positives from it and I'll read you this quote from Sam Torrance who described that moment he said the Sunday night at Palm Beach he was extraordinary referring to Sevi of course he made us all

even Langer shout out we will beat them he had tears streaming down his face it was ridiculous the amount of emotion that was shown he said don't cry when we lose cry when we win we are going to beat them. And so it sounds like not only was he on an emotional like cloud nine, but he brought everybody else with him. And I think you can probably trace the collective identity of Team Europe that became such a prominent thing. It became such a part of their identity. In a lot of ways, you can trace it right to that moment when Sevi said, this is the beginning, right? This is not the sad end of this tournament. This is the beginning of something really special that's going to happen. So I brought you in here under the guise of we're going to talk about

captaincy, led you straight to Sevee, who was not the captain of the team in 1983. He would not be captain until 1997, but Tony Jacqueline is the captain in 1983 that is able to bring Sevy in. How did that come about? And why is he often credited in a similar way to

the Renaissance team Europe has had since then? Yeah, and Chris, to your point, it really, they are like dual figures. Like Sevi is the heartbeat and Tony Jacqueline is the brain behind it. And Jacqueline's story is pretty cool because he was obviously a really, really great European player, in some ways the best for a long time.

He was the pioneer. He was the first British guy post-World War II who went to the U.S. and played a lot. He won the U.S. Open. He won the Open Championship, in both cases, breaking these long droughts for Great Britain. Now, at the end of his career, he played in a lot of Ryder Cups. He had a famous moment with Jack Nicholas at the concession, but he lost a lot more than he won. And by the end, he was very, very disgruntled. He was left off a team famously.

and he really wanted nothing to do with the Ryder Cup. But at the same time, the Ryder Cup itself was dying. And so the leadership structure came to him and surprised him in 1983 and basically said, we need you to be captain. They found him before the British Open that year to show you how quick the timeline was. And his first thought was absolutely not. I hate the Ryder Cup. I've got nothing but bad feelings about it.

But then he thought about it for a night. And he said, I'm going to come back and make this unbelievable list of demands that they're going to say no to but at least i put it out there i went back the next day and i said look i'll do it on my own terms i said i need cartblans to do what i want and well what do you want you know and i said well i won't i won't concord uh which is no more or less than the americans are traveling you know to travel for the listeners that's supersonic jet that was flown in that time period yes some of our listeners are young and may not know what concord is well that's right And I said I want first-class clothing,

several rowsuits and all the rest of it. And I want a team room where we can be together and nurture some camaraderie together and be, you know, just for the wives and the players, not for anybody else, not for caddies or agents or members of the PGA. I just want us to be together. And I want everything in that room that they will need

food and beverage, you know, fish, pasta, meat, whatever anybody wants, and TVs, so they don't have to go anywhere. And I want Sevi by Astero's. And so he came to them, he proposed all of this, in his head basically going, they're going to say no, screw him. And they said yes to everything,

because they were desperate to in ways that he didn't realize. They kept saying, okay. And I said, well, okay. You weren't expecting yeses to these debates. Well, you know, I said, if you agree to giving me all the things I want, and I'll do it. And so all of a sudden, now he's the captain. Then his first move, they basically said, you can have Sevy, but he's your problem. So he meets with Sevy at a hotel.

I think it was the Prince of Wales Hotel. And Sevy is listing his complaints with the Ryder Cup. They had kept him off the year before. He had 1,001 problems. And Tony Jacklin said, I know, I know, I get it, but I can't do this without you. And by the end of it, he got Sevy to agree to come with him. him. And then from there, you know, the story all unfolds from that moment, getting Sevy on board, Europe feeling like they're an actual, you know, they're just as good as the Americans, they've got

nice stuff, they come over there. He begins the process of, you know, learning who everybody wants to play with, all of these very, very beginning, like almost tentative steps to establishing the template that would become so ironed out and so sophisticated for Europe years later. It all begins with Tony Jacqueline accepting the job in 1983. Seve's inspiring words after the close defeat in 83 did prove to be foretelling. Europe beat the Americans handily at the Belfrey in 1985, with Jacqueline again leading the charge, and they were not done. They famously went to Mirfield Village in 1987 and defeated Jack Nichols' team 15 to 13 for their first ever win on U.S. soil. The American domination of the Ryder Cup was officially over.

When you talk about moments that changed the Ryder Cup, this is a huge one because it had never been done before. and now truly we are on even footing. And who should be there at the end to nail it down. Savi by Astero's, the putt at 16, defeats Strange 2-1, clinches the Europeans, their second straight Rider Cup, their first victory on American soil, and back-to-back wins for the first time in Rider Cup history. What happens now with the Americans?

Do they go back to the drawing board? Do they put their egos aside and say, we need to change how we're doing things? Do they keep doing things the way they've always felt? Does their strategy change year over year? What's the American reaction to a new force on the scene for this event? Well, Chris, they eventually do change things and go back to the drawing board. That happens 20 years later.

So after 1987, they don't do that. Forgive me, but I'm going to breeze through this two-decade period to get to when things change for the first time with the United States in 2008. In 89, again at the Belfrey, a tie meant that Europe retains. the cup. The U.S. would bounce back and win a nail biter at Kiowa in 91, and then went across the pond to the Belfry, captain by Tom Watson, and won it for consecutive years for the first time in a decade. But Europe won again on U.S. soil in 95, and they won under Captain Sevi at Valdorama in 97, and they were oh so close to making it three in a row, if not for that

miraculous comeback by the Americans at Brookline in 99. A close defeat in 2002 at the Belfrey put the cup back in Europe's hands, and then they humiliated the Americans at Oakland Hill. in 2004 and again at the K Club in 2006. The PJ of America had had enough, and it was time for change. This is the emergence of Paul Asinger, who the parallels with him and Tony Jacqueline are super interesting right down to the idea of while he was interviewing for this job, he had the audacity to demand a lot of different things. I want to change how the point system works.

I want to bring in a whole new philosophy about how we build a team. I want more captain's picks, all those kind of things that he thought, well, you know, they may reject it, but at least I'm going to go down the way I want to go down. And just like with Jacqueline, where the leadership structure was a little bit desperate, and so they were more willing to hear that kind of thing. Same thing with the Americans. We're coming off these two 18 and a half to nine and a half losses. Yeah, this is the time when we're going to start to say, we got a problem here, right? This is not, things are not going well. So, okay, Paul Asinger, you seem like you think about it a lot. And we're going to

listen to you. And Aisinger's big revolutionary idea actually came from a day he was sitting around and he happened to see a documentary on the Navy Seals. I watched the Navy Seals documentary of how they take large groups and make them into small groups. And I said, I want to do that with this team. I want to do four three-man teams or three-four-man teams and whatever. And then when I got with Ron Braun, he made the biggest difference, Dr. Ron Braun, and how you put the players into groups. Are you going to do it? You know, how you do it? I said, well, you know, usually we use like games and guys that are buddies. He said, have you ever considered like person? And I hadn't. And I gave it a little bit of thought, and we ended up categorizing just through observation, four different personality types. And then we used Myers-Briggs, green light, caution light, red light. That's a simple version. And we tried to put green light personalities together in the four-man groups. So you had your redneck pod, you know, with J.B. Holmes and Kenny Perry and guys like that. You had a pod with Phil Mickelson and Anthony Kim, like the really, you know, the aggressive pod. There were two things that allow us to play our best.

I think that Paul Asinger did. One was he got everybody invested in the process. He got everybody invested in who they were going to play with, who the picks were going to be, who was going to be in their pod, when they would play. And they had a great leader for each pod. In my case, we had Ray Floyd. And we hung out together.

We were all invested in each other's play. Here's Hunter Mahan, who played on the 2018, concurring with Phil. We knew exactly who we were going to play with all week. There was no, there was no guessing. It was already built into what we were doing. Phil sat me down. After I got picked, he set me down. I think it was like a playoff event or something.

And he went through this whole list. He said, we're going to win. And let me tell you why. And he went through this whole list. And Phil kept a lot of these teams together in a lot of different ways. because he is very inspiring. And he's not inspiring by, you know, running through a wall or banging on tables

or any sort of speeches. He really cares. You have to get the players to get ownership of the team. You can't just be the leader of them. Now back to Shane Ryan talking about Zinger. And that's what he did. And he let these pods choose their own captain's pick,

which was incredible. He gave them the power to pick the guy they wanted to add to it. You know, he picked Steve Stricker. and every other pod they said pick your own guy and he empowered them to such an incredible degree that even without tiger woods that year who got hurt after the u.s open he came at you know you joke about brett wedderick but if you look at the u.s roster for 2008 they were really not good and it was one of the few times in writer cup history where europe was like obviously way better on paper and they had nick faldo as captain but because of this idea he had he bred a real team atmosphere he had

these guys excited and you know he had a few other tricks up a sleeve with with course set up and things like that but they came and they won and they beat europe on home soil and reverse this you know this nightmare era that had just preceded it we'll have a put to win the rider cup he's conceded it Jim Furek doesn't need to hold it and America have got the cup back I think an underrated aspect of captaincy is a captain's ability to to get the most out of his players. How do you do that? How do you foster a team environment

that sets up really well for players to play well in? And we've seen a European side, a European team, a European unit. They have a system in place. I don't even want to refer to them as a team. We've seen them, they haven't won all of them. They've lost several rider cups. We'll break down some of that as well. But they seemingly make up the talent gap in this event very often,

especially on home soil. But the how has always fascinated me. How do you actually do it? To help me flesh out this idea, I talk to someone who knows a little bit about what goes into team events. You've got to understand your personnel. And I think in any team environment,

that's what it boils down to. And what I mean by that is every human being out there ticks in a different way. And as a leader, you need to figure out what makes each individual tick? What are their sweet spots that you can really lean into to get the best out of them? You may recognize that as the voice of Trevor Emelman, who played on two presidents' cup teams and captained another one of them. We'll have more from him in this episode. What Trevor said there isn't necessarily groundbreaking, but man, is it true? And it helps

tee up a couple of hyper-specific examples of how a captain has gotten the most out of his players through clear communication. Here's Paul McGinley talking about how he was managed by his captain, Sam Torrance. Sam captained me really well, and that's an important thing to kind of touch on. So what he did, myself, those four of us, myself, Lee Westwood, Philip Price,

I think it was Perfokey. The four of us had really lost form that year. You know, some players are playing better. No, it was Yes, Peronovic. Those four players, and yes, we were still in America. So the three of us who were based in the UK were brought up to the Belfry the week before

by Sam. I live beside Sam here down in Sunningdale and we went up for a practice round 12 or 10 days maybe before the right of cup. The World Championship was on over in Ireland ironically none of us had qualified to play in that and he said come on let's get in let's all get together and get up and have a run around

in the Belafree get to have a look at the course at that stage all the stands were up and we kind of had a nice four ball on the way around we had a bit of food afterwards nice bit of banter and then on the way back we got in Sam had a driven BMW a driver and we got in the back of the car

and he jumps in the back beside me this big seven series BMW and he's got a bottle of pink champagne and two glasses he opens up the bottle of champagne

the drive back is about two hours from Birmingham in the Belfrey he said right we're going to talk about your role this week and he went through

everything and he basically showed so much confidence in me he told me the role everybody was going to play how many matches every was going to play

how many matches I was going to play who my partners would be just gave me such exude of confidence that, you know, you're part of the team. You're not kind of a guy I'm trying to manage here. He made me real part of it. And getting out of the car on the far side, you know, I really felt like I was going to

be in a very important, he made me feel a very important part of his team, a very important member of his team, even though, you know, on the car journey in the way up, I felt that I was the outsider and I was a problem that he had to manage. That's just the first half of the story because it informs how Paul McGinley runs his team in 2014 when he's met with a very challenging situation between Victor Du Boisone and how to find a pairing for him and Graham McDowell. And I've played this audio many, many times on this podcast and many different medleys because it's, it's, it is what shines through to me as an example of why I think it is inarguable that captaincy matters. So my philosophy as a captain

was very much along the lines of Sam Torrance. It was about communication. It was about relationships. It was about managing all the relationships. I mean, I didn't have 12 guys that I knew really really well. I knew a lot of them well and some were easy to manage and some were more difficult. You know, Victor Dubason had made the team who, you know, all the French guys in tour were telling me he was kicked off the French team when he was an amateur,

kicked out of the Federation, he wore the wrong clothes, he wouldn't be told what to do, he won't turn up for team meetings and all of those. And, you know, that was highlighted as a red flag to me. So I really made it my business. I put a lot of effort into managing him and I did that by getting to know him as a person. I remember going out to Malaysia for a week where he was playing

and spending a week with him, having dinner with him at night and trying to break down his barrier that he had as a human and tried to get me into it he's very untrustworthy of people and you know try to get him in there I took him down to Monaco we had a bottle of wine

on a friend of mine who was a Formula One team I knew he loved Formula One got him into that environment got him in a nice kind of and you know kind of managed him and slowly brought him into the team and then got Graham McDowell

to play a part as a senior guy he needed a senior guy then I had to talk to Joel Graham in to claim that role Reim wanted to play a bigger role he wanted to be one of the stars of the team and playing all five games and I said no Graham

I mean this is the plan at that stage I was formulating the plan of who was going to play what just like Sam did to me in the back of that BMW on the way down with a bottle of champagne he had a plan and I was going to have a plan

and you know I was starting to formulate the plan pre that writer cop of who was going to play with who and then it was a question of when the rider cup came was going to roll out that plan it wasn't making it up as I went it wasn't making it up two days before

this was going to be made up well in advance based on statistics based on the golf course and that was going to be the plan and then the communication of that plan to each individual player and not telling them like Sam did what everybody else is doing

so for example you know Rory wasn't aware of who else was doing what in the team except who he would be playing with and whose potential partners were and how many matches you would play that's all he needed to know and Victor the same you know if you're going to be playing two matches

you're going to be playing with Graham in the foursums the first two days and then they're going to play the singles you're going to be playing three matches you know and then with Graham I had a little bit of the ying and the yang So trying to get Graham convinced to play this role Of only playing three out of five matches

It was a naughty thing You know, Graham like all players He's got an ego and he wanted to play five And he's, you know, coming off, you know, not long after being the US Open champion And a big star and, you know, and I'd been the absolute hero in 2010 And really wanted to play that big role, that lead role.

And I had a little bit of a smaller role from to play But a very important one in terms of looking after one of the rookies playing the two matches in a difficult format that is foursoms. And I had to try and convince them that this was the right thing to do. So I did it by talking to him on a humane level and also on a common sense level. And I set them down based on what I knew with statistics and what I trawled out. And I said, look, the real key to unlock in this golf course based on the stats that I've gathered over the last 10 years of the Johnny Walker around Glen Eagle's golf course, Graham, is the fact that the real key is unlocking the par fives.

There's four par fives in this golf course as well as a drivable part. four. Now, they're all big power fives. And what I really want to do is I want to have the bigger hitter driving on these holes. Four out of those five holes are even numbers, Graham. I really need, you're not one of the bigger hitters. I need to put you with a big hitter, and I need to look after a guy who's, who needs somebody senior and mature on the team, and there's nobody better than you to play that role. And then I took out the yardage map, when I showed him, you know, your average drive down the second Graham is, you know, he can't get home into, whereas if he drives, you're able to get home into. And then,

slowly went around the golf course that way. When it comes to 14, he can drive the green ground because it's an even number. It'll be his driving hole, whereas, you know, if you're driving on that hole, you're going to have to lay it up. And so my force and my partnership were Ying and Yang. I had a big hitter and a shorter hitter in each partnership in order to attack the par fives with the bigger hitter driving on the even numbers. So then if he played all that role for him, I then gave him the cherry of, I'd say, look, Graham, if you do this for me, I'll put you about number one in the singles in two weeks time.

I'll put you out leading out the team at singles. Now I'm playing to his ego. I'm playing to a role that he really wanted to play. And he's like, really? What will Rory say about that? And I said, I've cleared it with Rory. Rory's good with all of this. We're going to put Rory out number three

because putting out number one is the expectation on his shoulders. I know the last two European captains have put him out at number one, but that hasn't worked out too well. He's lost both of his games. You know, I personally wouldn't be putting out the best player at number one

because they've got nowhere to go at number one that expected to win. There's a huge amount of expectation of shoulders. And that was my, I said to Graham I said my good instinct is the best number ones are the street fighters the guys with the biggest heart

that's the guy you put out number one Graham and you're the guy with the biggest heart in his team so you know it was all about managing that kind of just an example of the communication that I had with Graham and so he went away then he played his two games with Victor they won both of their games and Graham was terrific

and then he went out number one in the singles and one in the singles and you know the other point I made to him about playing the singles Graham is look Graham if you play this role in the first two days of only playing one match you're going to have an advantage in the singles and advantage will be

America are going to do one or two things they've authorically always done one of two things they'll either put out their best player number one or they'll put out the player who's playing the best that week either way Graham they'll have played 72 holes in the first two days you only have played 36

you're going to be fresh or going out against whoever you're playing against doesn't matter who it is and that's ultimately what happened he went out against Jordan Speed who was their best player and Jordan tired I mean Jordan got three up at one stage early on Graham

but faded then as Graham went out to win two and one. So all those conversations were had two weeks in advance of the right of a cup. Graham knew well in advance of the right of a cup exactly what role you would play, and that's ultimately what happened. I'm such a sucker for that story, because honestly, it's the one that really shape-shifted my view on this entire topic.

And it gets a bit funnier when you contrast it with what McGinley was up against. Here's Hunter Mayhan talking about 2014 under Tom Watson. And sometimes you get to these events, and it felt like we're figuring out Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday about who we're going to play with. And I remember it was with Watson. He said, you're going to go out with Jim, Jim Furik. And I was like, all right, I hadn't played with Jim all week. I had, and we were playing an alternate shot.

I hadn't hit his ball all week. It was like, okay, we ran out to the range and we were like, Jim, what do you use? And it was just kind of like, you know, that was a little frustrating. And it was tough about that week. But I love Jim Furic, and I couldn't wait to play with him. But I was just like, I wish I kind of played a little bit more with him that week to know that that was going to happen. Furek and Mahan would go on to lose three and two to Sergio Garcia and Rory McElroy. When later challenged about his foursomes pairings, Tom Watson said,

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Does the Captain Matter question to Tommy Fleetwood and Justin Thomas in their press conferences before the tournament began. Specifically, we asked them to tell us about an instance in which a captain that you played for understood something about you personally

that helped set you up to play better golf in the Ryder Cup. Listen to the contrast between their answers. Yeah, that job of the captain, I guess, is to give us their best platform for us to play, like with confidence and with freedom. and I think I've been lucky in the captains that I've had that I've had good

relationship, you know, great relationships with them before any of their captains who have come along and they've sort of understood me as a person. Like I said in the last Rider Cup, I didn't really, I particularly want to go out number 11 in a way, like it was just late on, we were ahead and I just didn't feel like that was a spot that I wanted to be in, but Luke obviously told me, it actually told me afterwards why he wanted me there and that it was a great thing and giving me and in the end I was very grateful for that opportunity but I think um just been lucky with the guys that know me very well and know how to read me and know how to get the most out of me that was Tommy of course now

here's JT um I think they're all the captains I've had have all been kind of different in their own rights but in a great way I think they were all close enough removed to golf that they they understood and they knew all of us that, you know, that they were there to help however they could, but they also understood that probably the most productive way for them to captain was to just let us play golf. And I think that's kind of become the case more and more now. You know, it's not a situation of everybody needs to give up and get up and give some kind of motivational, you know, tear-jurking message every night or whatever it may be.

it's like it's just a little different day and age in terms of all of our routines and how we go about things. So I think the more common we can keep things, the better, and captains understand that. All right, I'm bringing in a couple of my colleagues together to react to some of this as we go along. I got Randy and Neil here.

Neil, I'm going to start with you. Do these quotes feel like a bit of a microcosm of the differences we might see in team cultures between Team USA and Europe? listen to those back to back yes i hear the words from tommy playing with confidence and freedom when i think about it you know or listen to it a couple times i feel like jt is saying that as well but he's using the word help and he's looking he's not looking for leadership he's looking for help and i think that is the difference i think that the europeans seem to understand that

they're playing you know it sounds cliche but for a bigger thing whereas jt's words make me think about like, just let me go do my thing. And the words, like, help me do my thing. There's a lot of words that start with M there. And I don't hear that quite as much. Now, Tommy did say, like, I didn't want to play in the 11th position, but he did. And there wasn't any, it doesn't sound like there was much drama about that. So it's like, okay, whatever you tell me to do, Captain, he's listening to as more of a subordinate attitude, which I think if you can get all 12 guys to do that that would certainly benefit team USA and i think looking ahead to this year's rider cup i feel like they have more so than any year i can remember more personalities on that team that are willing to

do that including scottie i think scotty has that that kind of attitude so i think they're trending in that direction even if you know j t is this was a quote from a you know a month ago he's not quite there yet with some of the words i'm hearing him say randy if you were playing in a team event what kind of management style do you think would work for you Could you sing kumbaya? Could you buy into the culture stuff that Europe's got going on? Oh, hell yeah. Listen, life, we don't get near enough opportunities to really believe in something

and to be a part of something that's bigger than just myself. Sign me up for seemingly how Team Europe is going about it. I want to believe. I want to buy in. I want to work and achieve for something much larger and beyond my knowledge. self, Solly. Here's the biggest thing I learned from my time spent in coaching. And Neil, I'd be curious if this resonates with you. We would talk often about in basketball. It really doesn't matter what system you pick to run. What matters is you have confidence in it

and you project an understanding and an expertise and you're able to teach it to your players. So as I hear Tommy talk about Team Europe and J.T. about Team USA and the kind of changes in directions that Team USA specifically has made over the last several years, I think that's what resonates with me is like, I just don't think Team USA is very confident in like the structure that they put around the captaincy for the Ryder Cup. And I sense a ton of confidence out of team Europe. And I think that counts for a lot. Neil, you've been a part of a lot of teams. How would you need to be coached one of these?

I don't know. I got a lot to say about this one. I think listening to back to what J.T. was saying, I think he's missing the point on it's not, and there was stuff from Rory earlier in the episode. It's not about like the speeches Rory's making and the emotion. Like that shows that he's bought in and this means something to him. That's kind of like table stakes.

Like it should mean something to everybody if you're playing. I think what stuck out to me was McGinley talking about, I think it was Sam Torrance being in the back. back of that BMW. And for me, the management style that worked early in my professional career was, let me in on the process on the Y as early as possible. And I would say less so what McGinley did with Graham McDowell, where he's like, he told Graham, I need this from you. Graham didn't want to do it. He didn't really want to explain like the wider macro. I would want all of that. I like, I remember my first job, I was in sales. I remember going in, I was selling like tech

research. Not to get off on a tangent, but I, I was trying to discount end of the quarter special. And they were like, you can't do that. And I remember it was small enough company. I went into the CEO and I said, why can I do that? And he walked me through how, like, what we pay the analyst, you know, like the nuts and bolts of it. And I was like, okay, now I get it. Like, that makes a ton of sense. Like, kind of sucks. I'm trying to hit a quota. But like now I understand, oh, we're going to lose money if I do that. You know what I mean? Like that's the type of leadership, I think, that helps. That's how you get buy-in.

Speaking of getting the most out of their players, I asked Shane and Trevor about different examples of captains understanding their players and what made them tick and how that led to some differing leadership approaches. One of my favorite stories is from the first session in 2008 with Paul Asinger, captaining, you know, there were two different situations where he felt like he had to get on the course and encourage his guys. One of them was Phil Mickelson and Anthony Kim. and Anthony Kim just wasn't playing well.

And knowing Anthony Kim's kind of arrogant, you know, personality, his very aggressive personality, Aisinger went out there and was like, you're playing like shit and you're letting everybody down. Some players you can be tough on and you can challenge them. And you can be like, hey, man, this is not good enough. I need more from you. I don't like the way you're prepping.

I don't like the way you go about this. I don't like your attitude right now. I need you to give more to the team. and they'll respond in a way. Certain people like to be challenged. Which is not going to work for everybody, but it got Anthony Kim laughing, even though he was serious and he's like,

don't worry about it, we got you. And he and Phil Mickelson came back and they won. And then the other one he talked to was J.B. Holmes and Boo Weekly. And those guys are, you know, even though they're these tough looking rednecks or whatever, they're a little bit more sensitive. Others, you've got to put your arm around them. You know, show them you love them in that sense.

tell them it's going to be okay and then that's how you get them into a spot to where they really feel comfortable and calm and confidence so that they can go out there and just free it up he went to them and the approach was completely different he was like listen you guys are doing great just got to keep your confidence up i'm really proud to you etc etc so just that little you know there are a lot of technical things that matter when you're captaining but those little things where you know your players and you know how to speak to them are just so, so key. Randy, you're too down in a match. It's not going great. What do you need? If I'm your captain, how do I get through to you? Oh, you got to, you got to shower me with with love and uplifting.

I truly, I am more of the J.B. Holmes style. I think obviously good coaches, good leaders know that you need to talk and act differently with different people. They have, different personality types. I don't love confrontation. I want to be confident, calm, like those words resonated with me. I'm very much like, come come be nice, try to lift me up. That is what works for me, I think. Neil, what would you need? I'm the opposite. I'm motivated by fear and downside. And like, I don't like bullshit. You know, I don't like to be told. Like, I'm pretty hard on myself so it's like tell it to me like hey more not so much like you suck like it's more so like hey we need it like that's gonna lock me back in like don't quit on this match like you

you have a bad attitude right now like whenever randy says during strap like yo you're you're i'm seeing that hang dog come out it's like that's that's that's what they'll snap me back in like you're right i am acting like a bitch like i need to get out of this you know round's not over you know let's at least finish through the line here that's that's um that's what i'm looking for Another element of this tournament that fascinates me is everything that happens outside of the broadcast. There's so much for each team to deal with that doesn't make it on TV, dynamics to consider that aren't as relevant during individual stroke play. And I've been lucky enough to attend the last four Ryder Cups. And I've seen a few things that probably just don't show up on TV.

And if I hadn't been there in person and I just heard someone saying this, I would be the top candidate to roll my eyes at this motion. But just little stuff about how guys are engaging with the team when they're sitting out a session. once their match has finished. I remember watching Shane Lowry off the side of the 13th green in Rome, just acting like a 10-year-old in the best way after his team had won the hole. And the difference between the vibe of the Americans and the Europeans was vast. And sure, you can say that's because the scoreboard and the fact that Europe was up. But it was like this from the jump.

And if that's the case, can't we conclude that it most definitely didn't hurt their chances of getting off the bus and getting out to a 4-0 lead, the fact that they had this incredible team chemistry and they were ready to go first thing Friday morning? Scotty Sheffler, the best player in the world, lost a match with Brooks Kepka, 9 and 7. 9 and 7? There simply has to be some larger factors at play here. The captain is responsible for creating this environment. This may be a really small nugget, but Luke Donald preached the importance of the early stages of these matches and how important momentum was and had their players playing three whole matches, little three whole matches in their practice

rounds to get them ready to get off the bus and get off to a great start. Another point for team, Now that we've covered the culture aspect of the captain. Now that we've covered the culture aspect of the captaincy, let's get into the weeds a bit. And as the resident data boy, you may be a bit surprised that it's taken us this long to get into the nitty-gritty of the stats and the small decisions the captains are responsible for making. Chris, part of the problem with modern rider cubs now is that both of the, both teams treat it like they're in the CIA, like it's a state secret that they can't possibly divulge any info. really, really hard to get any information out of either side, including Luke Donald, you know, what did he do in Rome? That was so good. We don't really know. It's hard on the front end, sure, but there's a lot in that Eduardo Molinari episode from 2023, episode 757, if anybody

wants to listen to that in full. Dodo has been entrusted as the statistical guru on the European side. I studied engineering in college in Italy, so I always had the interest in numbers and stats and probabilities and all that stuff. And before turning pro, I thought if I could keep stats about my game, it would be very easy to understand where I need to improve, where I'm good enough, you know, what I can do better in my game. So I developed my own kind of system to keep track of everything. And then, obviously, initially it was very, very simple,

and then it just became more and more complex. Not only is their analysis done on your pairings, but the home team is also in charge of setting up the golf. course, and the smart captains used this to their advantage. So then you create a profile for the US, a profile for Europe, and all of a sudden magic happens, and we find out that we were slightly better outside 175 yards, which is the magic number. So then we started, I think that was one of the biggest things.

We tried to make a driving contest and like a mid-long iron contest. Of all the shots we gained over the US, 92% were either off the T or between 175 and 225 yards to the fin. Wow. So I thought we patty better. I thought we chip better. I thought, but actually the biggest difference was literally from the T all the way to 175. And how do the different formats work in terms of strategy?

So four boards is basically just making verdicts. So whoever is making the most number of birdies is good in four boards. And then we had a little, not secret, but something that I'm not going to disclose. to make sure that we can, you know, two players that can make the same number of birdies, but then you want to kind of mix them up a little bit. And then in four songs, it's a bit more complex, so I started to kind of develop a system

where basically we could have, let's say, Rory playing with Tommy, and then Rory will hit the T-Shod on the first. We know exactly how many times he's going to hit the fairway and how far it's going to be. So then from there, Tommy is going to hit the second shot, shot and we know he's like dispersion and strokes gain from each distance range. How many times does he hit it inside 10 feet and then Rory hits the path and then you just keep going.

They basically play, you make them play 18 holes on a kind of a simulation and then you get an expected score and then you flip them. So all of a sudden Tommy hits the first and Rale hits the second shot at the first and then you do the same for all possible combinations. Again, compare what Hunter Mahan said earlier about finding out Week of that he was is going to play forcums with Jim Furek to this approach from Team Europe. So I was named captain in May 22. And in the last 14 months, I only ever played with European players every single week.

Thursday, Friday, every week. So I think it's not so much to see how they play, but it's more like to get to know them a little bit more, spend some time with them. We organize like countless number of dinners, In Scotland, we had a massive dinner, but we did it a lot of times. And I think just playing with them, again, it makes them a bit more comfortable. If they happen to be in their either-cap team, they just know someone a little bit better.

These are all specific strategic decisions that need to be made over the course of tournament week, but also the months leading up. But as many captains have iterated over the years, the captaincy is very, very time-consuming on a lot of detailed matters that are not specifically golf-related. There's just so many moving parts to all. of it from a prep standpoint as you're trying to put your team together and now in the last few cups really since COVID when we've gone to six picks and only six qualifiers you know back in

the old days it was just two picks you know there's not that much work that's going into that now you've got half of your team that is up to the captain to decide how you're going to put this group together and so all of that kind of stuff really does take a toll on you mentally You've got a great backroom staff, and you're in contact with these people all the time. I mean, it's hours every single day that you're thinking through things and you're in touch with people, whether it be about uniforms, shuttles, food that's going to be in the player dining, what your cabins are going to look like at the course, at the hotel, where guys are going to blow some steam off, where do they want their gyms to be located?

All these kinds of things start to factor in. even pre. And now you get into the tournament itself, and the captain needs to be able to make some decisions on the fly, figure out how players are playing, how they feeling, how the golf course is shaping up, what the weather's going to be like, and then strategize your pairings accordingly. We've talked a lot about the great captaincy moments, the heroic experiences, the triumphs. there's also been a lot of major, major, major faux pauses over the years. When I asked that question, what comes to the top of your mind in terms of major mistakes that captains have made and not just ones that fans and journalists want to nitpick,

like these were obvious. Like you messed this up and we're still going to talk about it. Well, let me just say as a preamble to that, Chris, one of my favorite things is when we have this argument about does the captaincy matter is people will readily admit when captains make mistakes, right? They'll say, oh, yeah, this was obviously, you know, Tom Watson didn't do the right thing, whatever. And it happened with Joel Beal when I was arguing with them. And my comeback is always, so a captain can be bad, but not good.

Is that what we're saying? And that goes back to that Jason Aquino quote of what the captaincy is, is making a bunch of right decisions over and over and over. So when you talk about the major faux pods, there's ones that everybody will know, you know, Tom Watson and Glenn Eagles. A united Europe with a record nine nationalities represented, won the singles, six and a half. five and a half and retain the trophy by 16 and a half points to 11 and a half. Just a series of bad choices that end up cascading on each other when the other captain is so good, right? It's not just that you make one bad choice where you're like, oh, well, you know, Spieth and Reed, we didn't put them back out there.

And they didn't, you know, you should have been putting them back out on Friday because they played so well in the morning, but you didn't have time to make the right decision and you weren't prepared enough to do it. Now you got them mad at you. But instead you put Phil and Keegan out again and they lose and Phil looks tired so now the next day comes and you've got you know spith and read that you've got to you know placate a little bit but you end up sitting Phil twice which pisses him off and even though he tries to text you and talk to you and basically beg you so that Phil's so pissed off that by the time the whole disaster is over he's going at you in the media room right he famously sabotages you in front of all his teammates in front of the other

journalists and puts this, you know, this horrible stain on the latter part of your legendary career. And so you can see how all of this stuff, like just like good decisions build on themselves, bad decisions have a way of accruing negative momentum. All right, guys, one of my favorite things. Our Ryder Cup failures, faux paws, captains make mistakes. Some are obvious, some not as obvious. But when I say failures in faux pauses, Randy, what comes top of mind of some of your, the ones that stick out the most to your memory?

I think what sticks out first and foremost, and I think it's unfair to them, but I still think of how Sutton putting Tigern filled together and how that just did not work and it kind of torpedoed that whole Rider Cup. I said it yesterday in the opening ceremonies. I felt like the world wanted to see them together. I wanted to see them together. I think they wanted to see each other together. And we gave it a good shot and we're going to have to move on.

But I want to say, I'm not sure I can blame or I'd fault Captain Sutton because I think it took balls. Like I respect the move in a lot of ways, right? Like, our two best players, guys, you're the two best players in the world. I'm putting you together. Go out, go out and perform. And they simply didn't. The Sutton thing, after listening back to all these interviews and all these comments over the years, I mean, he just announced it at the press conference.

Like, when he was going to be the cap, he's like, first thing I'm doing, I'm pairing these two together. It was like, well, maybe the first thing you do is ask them if that would be a compatible pairing. How's the golf ball thing work? Because it was foursums. It wasn't four ball that they were paired them up together. And the golf ball thing was a disaster. Nobody wanted it.

It's like, yeah, maybe get some buy-in from the team part first before you go and get on a mic and do that. That might have been where the big mistake was there. I mean, I'm with you, though, Randy, a little shock and awe. We're going to put a boot in your ass. Like, here come our biggest missiles right at you. It's good stuff, man. American, might have been a boot in their own ass, I think, unfortunately. As it turned out.

I would say after that, and maybe some recency bias here, but Zach Johnson and just, I don't know, I just never got the strong, confident leadership vibe from him. And so not that there's anything specific, I don't think that that really comes to mind, but just kind of his whole body of work from a couple years ago. Well, I mean, it's just, it's difficult. It's hard to win outside of your comfort zone. I think the most impactful, like, faux pauses are just the press conferences. So the U.S. has this narrative that they don't have chemistry

and the team and the system are all out of whack and we need a task force is all because they start chirping at each other in these press conferences. The one that comes in mind is Glenn Eagles. And just like throwing each other under the bus after the fact is I think where team, like, because Europe's, you know, zoom out,

Europe's lost a whistling straits. They're not throwing each other under the bus. No one's questioning their team chemistry. It's just like, oh, they got beat by a better team on home soil. But when the U.S. goes over there, it's like, then they start the, infighting and it's like god they kind of create that narrative

a little bit just by just from the ego stuff I think. Not to say that there aren't mistakes from the captains, but they pour kerosene on it by calling it out, you know, so publicly. A lot of captains have intimated over the years how time consuming the job is spending, you know, mass amounts

of time on things that aren't strategic about the game of golf. You know, the team room, the outfits, the clothes, the shuttles, all this stuff was just the fact that the U.S. had such a massive, massive fopaw with something related to their attire at the 2010 Rider Cup

at Wales when it just deluged on them. They sewed their names into the back of their rain suits and the water went straight through the rain suits. It didn't look like they were very waterproof to begin with, but can you imagine that happening in the Twitter era that the PG of America officials had to go buy

reinsuits? It cost them like 4,000 pounds at the merchandise shop to go buy a bunch of rain suits. I think Sun Mountain rain suits To be able to finish the Rider Cup It's just the greatest thing ever That was Lisa Paven Corey Paven's wife

That had selected the rain suits And that's just I will think about that Until I'm like 95 years old The Shadow Captain Lisa Paven The Alpha The Alpha The Captain S the Alpha

It's amazing for how big of an event It feels like that The captain's like I am just flabbergasted That team room set up shuttles, rain suits, like that would even fall anywhere near the purview of a captain, right? I feel like you would want administrative help to, like, clear all of that stuff off your plate so you can concentrate on what really matters about winning golf matches and ultimately winning

the rider cup. That's a great point, Randy. I don't know. I think Team Europe, though, does a good job of making those guys bringing them up to feel like kids again, like it's, you know, for me, high school football, right? And the more people you get in that room, the less it's going to feel like that, the more corporate it's going to feel. The other thing I think about is I go back to when we were in Killarney and how not awkward I felt dancing in Riedies and how, you know, in the U.S., I feel like if you're in like a dance bar, it's like, oh, don't dance, man. Like that's, that's lame.

Like people are going to like laugh at you. And I think there is back to the initial question. Like I think there is a little bit of a difference in like it's cool to buy in. for Team Europe and it's not as cool for Team USA and that might be a cultural thing of like like like what a JT reference in that in that quote it's like it's not about the raw raw stuff it's like that stuff's lame you know like that's kind of what I'm hearing a little bit and it's like then you hear the quote from McGinley about Roy it's like no look how much it means to them it's like that's cool that's what we're that's what that's it maybe that is a cultural thing

I can't that's be pontificating but I hear that in those responses another one that I still, people don't talk about this enough. I mean, they didn't even get to the airplane yet before Patrick Reed through his captain, through Jordan Spieth, under the bus in 2018 in Paris when he complained, he went straight to Karen Krause to New York Times to say, here's the quote. I was looking at Spief about to light up the room like fill in 14. It was obvious Jordan didn't want to play with me. This is Patrick Reed from the New York Times. I don't have any issues with Jordan. When it comes right down to it, I don't care if I like the person I'm paired with. or if the person likes me as long as it works and it sets up for the team's success.

He and I know how to make each other better. I thought Furek might go back with the groups. For somebody to be successful in the Ryder Cup as I am, I don't think it's smart to split us up and sit me twice. He just completely threw Furek under the bus. He played with Tiger Woods. He shot like 80-something and it claimed that Tiger apologized to him. Like immediately, it just becomes that, all right, when the Americans win,

what does the Europeans do? the Americans, there's always something that they're mad of them for. And when the Europeans win, what happens, the Americans just blame the Americans. They just start throwing shit against each other or their captain. That's so well said. You don't even have to get on the plane before it happens. Like all three times, they didn't even get on the plane before things blew up. The most recent one being with the money stuff and all the Xander can't lay,

all that stuff that happened before the event was even though. They cannot get through a European Rider Cup without something falling, going completely wrong. And though it is kind of lame that Europe blames the U.S. or the fans or whatever, that's, you know, that's good. They're together at least. Yeah, yeah. They circle the wagons. It's like, let's just, you know, so they don't, that, that narrative doesn't pop up with them that like, oh, they need a task force or their, their strategies all off. It's smart.

Yeah. Both teams are traveling to New York to start prepping at Beth Page. And I bet you'd see more than a couple of Club Glove travel. coming off those planes this week. And that's because Club Glove is the number one golf travel bag on tour trusted by more than 60% of PGA tour professionals including Victor Hovlin, Shane Lowry, and more.

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Discover the all-new number one golf travel bag on tour at clubglove.com. And for a limited time, use code NLU at checkout and receive a complimentary gift with purchase. That's code NLU at clubglove.com today. Back to my chat with Shane Ryan here. You know, the cultures of America and Europe are different. And at times, I want to roll my eyes at folks that paint it with that broad of a brush. But at times, I do see the American ego, exceptionalism, individualism. I don't know.

You're much more of a scholar than I am. you could probably define that better than I can. But do you buy into any of that and how I feel like I admire so much of what Europe is able to do, but I see so much stuff that they're able to do that I have talked to some of these players about this, and I see the hard-headedness. I don't know how to define it other than they seem to still be heavily driven by their egos and their confidence in their play versus understanding the team aspect of things. Yeah, you know, I tend to minimize this in my own head because it ends up sounding like Pop,

psychology, but there are times, and it's a romantic notion, right, that Europe, maybe it's because they come from, you know, less capitalistic societies or all this stuff that is really, in some ways, reaching, but there's this romantic notion that they're better able to bond. I think what is true, Chris, is they always want to beat America more badly than America wants to beat them. And that is a product, not of different societies or anything like that. That's a product of America just historically being better and being the top dog in the golf world. And so there is something for them to unite against, to feel like the underdog against. And I think that does bring them together of, we want to do this to America.

Whereas the Americans, you wouldn't say, yeah, I want to go beat the guy from Germany and the guy from France and the three guys from England. You know what I mean? It's not quite the same thing. And Americans don't quite think that way. Probably there is some exceptionalism there, but it's driven not by some internal personality arrogance, but it's just driven by history and the way results have played out, where they're always just seemed to have this sort of communal sense.

And what's funny about it is they don't all like each other, right? People should not get that impression. There's a quote that I just can't remember the origin of it. But it was something like, it's a great quote from a European player. Like, you know, we spend 51 weeks of the year hating Colin Montgomery. And then we all come together and we're great teammates. And then we go back to hating him. Right. So these guys are, they're not, it's not kumbaya.

It's not like they're all best friends. But they do have that thing that. communal sense during the Ryder Cup that is not fake, it's not forced, it's totally legitimate. And I do agree with you that it has some kind of subliminal influence on things that happen. Doesn't mean they always win, but I think it helps in those marginal situations. What's kind of the vibe that you've gotten on Keegan's leadership style so far? I think what I would fear from Keegan Bradley as we as we get into this is he has said some quotes like that. I've always, they've always doubted me. They've always, you know, he said that to

team. They've always doubted me. It's a lot about him. And maybe that serves to motivate some guys, but I would be really, really careful of that as a captain about making the story all about you and your sense of grievance. Because that is a dangerous road to go down and it can lead to some short-sightedness and to some wrong decisions and just to people going enough already. We've heard your story. This is about a team. That insight from Shane really struck me because it does feel like Keegan, at least, you know, in many of his forward-facing press conference, has been framing the discussion around himself and his kind of personal vendetta. Neil, do you make anything of that?

God, that is interesting. I don't want to read too much into that, but I do think that a lot of this, the value of captain can add is, is pre-tournament, is in the months leading up to the tournament and getting prepped. And I think he made the right decision. I wish he would have picked himself for the fun of it. but did he did he cost he dragged it out to the very end and is that going to cost with like the pre the prep and like the planning and all the like doing a pod system or having having any

system is he behind the eight ball with the planning i don't think though that he will be me first as a captain you know you know what i'm saying like now that he now that he's closed the door on playing i think he is i'm i'm pretty bullish on him as a captain Randy what are your thoughts yeah I mean my initial thought is maybe it's an intentional tactic by keegan to keep the attention more focused on himself rather than some of the individual members of the team perhaps which listen if if he feels that's the tactic to use then more power to him it is interesting and I agree with Neil I think once we do get to the Ryder Cup. I don't think Keegan, I think he will be very team forward and very much

gracious and passing on everything to the guys playing the golf. So I, yeah, I guess maybe more I think of it as like, maybe he's just trying something intentionally here in the lead up. Shane, do you have a, if we were to look at this from a fun perspective, a captain or a leader from a particular sports movie that stands out to you as somebody you would love to play for, whatever sport that might be? It's such a good question.

Gene Hackman from Hoosiers, I feel like I just have this desire to be a part of something really intense that's going to make me feel terrible sometimes but that it's going to build me up and have this climactic, wonderful ending. So that's probably a cliche answer, but I would take him.

I'd like to see what that roller coaster was like. I always go back to Her Brooks and I know that's based on a true story. I was going there, too, and I was like, is he fictional? Well, it's too easy. It's a good point, but it's the, I'm not looking for the 12 best players. I'm looking for the right ones.

That is the epitome of the Ryder Cup to me. You're missing some of the best players. Looking for the best players. Craig, I'm looking for the right ones. There you go. That's for your Ryder Cup, Zah. Put that on a poster in the U.S. team room, and that's all the need for motivation. Randy Neal, to play us out, what's your answer to that question?

it's just this this is a good question it's such a good question i mean i you know recency bias gary gains from friday night lights uh is you know i'm i'm i love love that billy bob played it well i want you to put each other in your hearts forever because forever is about to happen here in just a few minutes i think though like i'm a sucker for herman boone and and denzel and remember the titans we don't come together right now right here on this hallow ground you know just kind of the good such a good combo of a hard ass of like how many feet are in a mile like pick up his ball and go run every damn one of them if you keep fumbling and you know putting your arm around somebody like

reading reading his players what they need at what moment i think denzel's going to be you know my pick there and neal you're a hall of fame in my book yeah randy who'd you want to play for it well It's so funny, if you listen to the start of that Denzel's speech from Remember the Titans, there's a lot of, like, threat of punishment. You drop a pass, you run a mile. You miss a blocking assignment. You run a mile. You form of the football, and I will break my foot off in your John Brown Hind parts.

And then you will run a mile. Right? Like, Neil, I'm just thinking back to how you said, you know, you're motivated more by fear. For me, it's, it's Herb Brooks, the Kurt Russell character from Miracle on Ice. I just think it hits like every pregame speech note that I need it to hit. The tempo and the pacing is fabulous, right? Just a quiet walk into the locker room. You know, the speech itself, the intensity builds.

Tonight, we are the greatest hockey team. well but you're throwing out that her brooks with the the ultimate hardo he's got a blue line to blue line who do you play again again he's a hard no no no don't get me wrong but when you're sitting in the dressing room before a game i don't need to be hearing like if we screw up this is going to be the punishment i need i need to believe and to buy in i feel like coach brooks got me there. But I think Herb and Herman both do that. It's like you got to be a hardo in the prep, in the two a days, in the training, like a coach that can be the enemy and then also be like a shoulder to lean on, like once you're, you know, once you're in like the live action

is that's the combo you're looking for. It's like they don't care if you like them early on, you know, and then you come to respect them later on. That's what you're looking for. That's exactly right. I don't need you to like me. I need you to respect me. We will win, Adelaide, we will win! I'll lead that we will win! I'll lead to conclude this little personal journey. I appreciate you humoring me

as I attempt to brain dump everything I've learned about this event over the last 10 years. I appreciate Shane Ryan, Trevor Immelman, Eduardo Molynari, Tony Jacqueline, Paul Asinger, Justin Thomas, Tommy Fleetwood, Hunter Mayhan, Padraig Harrington, and Jim Furek for their contributions

in recent months and in recent years to this podcast. Thanks also to Charles Van Kirk for helping me write and produce and edit and really do all the work behind this project as well. Can't wait to see what happens at Bethpage, and thanks for listening.