No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 1096: Justin Thomas on the 2025 Ryder Cup

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Soly catches up with Justin Thomas to talk all things 2025 Ryder Cup and the lessons learned from the defeat at Bethpage.  Before our Ryder Cup chat we hear from JT on his recovery from recent surgery and his career in team golf. We close our chat with some thoughts on the future of the PGA tour with the new leadership of Brian Rolapp and potential schedule changes in 2027. Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nolayingup.com/esf⁠ Support our Sponsors: Titleist Whoop DeleteMe If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Nest⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nolayingup.com/join⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Newsletter here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://newsletter.nolayingup.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe to the No Laying Up Podcast channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@NoLayingUpPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. I mean, that's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the no laying up podcast, Sali here.

No weekly recap. I did an interview earlier this week with Justin Thomas, our annual interview. I think we missed one year. If I, I think we didn't do one, maybe 20, 23. Otherwise, I think he's been on at or near the end of every single season that he's been on the PGA tour. We talk a little bit about, you know, being left off the President's Cup team in 2024. Is it recent injury, kind of what caused that led to that dad life?

And of course, I absolutely peppered him with questions about the 2025 Rider Cup. We're going to give that interview here shortly. First, I want to give a shout to our friends at Titleist. They had a driver fitting going on up at the Sea Island, the RSM Classic Pro Am on Monday. And sure enough, I ran into my guy Jason there. The guy that fit me into my GT2 that I've been talking about making the switch. And I just said, hey, you know, I did it pretty good, but, you know, I'm a little lower in the spin profile here. Like what it would happen if I took the Tor A D shaft that you've put me in with the GT2,

the one that has eliminated the lefts and I put the GT3 head back on. What would happen? And we tested there. We hit like five balls. He's like, yeah, just put that head back on there. That's, this is where you're at right now. Like the shaft was the issue in the original fitting or I guess when I was going through some health issues with my back, that that shaft was no longer a good fit for me.

Long story short, get fit. Go get fit. get fit by somebody who knows what they're doing. The worst thing you can do is just tinker on your own B1 setting, moving weights around. I have no idea what I'm doing there. Have somebody help you through that process. It has been super, super helpful.

And I'll give a shout to my guy, Jason, the GT3. I hit like five times the other night. It's not going left. That's all I know. And I did a little flirting with the ProV1X. I kind of tease that I was going to do that. It took like two or three shots that just didn't behave the way that I was used to seeing it for me to realize how great the ProVy 1x.

one is for me in particular. A couple of things that I was taking for granted just on like minimum iron distance cleared with certain iron shots and not getting too spinning. It's the right golf ball for me. I'm sticking with it. So tidalus.com to find a fitter near you. They can help you through all of these things,

wedges, irons, all of it. Get a professional to help you with this stuff. I know it has helped me. And it will continue to help me into the future. So without any further delay, here's our chat with Justin Thomas. Did you know how big of a mistake you made tweeting out how bored you were like you knew i was coming calling as soon as you sent that out was that a

bad signal call like i need to do a podcast it was funny i um i've been texting just with brittany a bunch uh you know with excel and she's just like she's like just you're warning like you know you're going to get a lot of stuff and um she was just joking she's like you should just comment back to like one of them and be like i'm not or what she says she's like i'm not desperate i'm just bored or what the hell she said something that was just so perfect it was like yeah, that is exactly how, yeah, it was, it was funny as hell. She's just like, yeah, just be warned. It's coming.

Like, yeah, pretty much. What is the, tell us about the procedure you had, kind of the timeline of what's happening. You know, you're sitting up straight for those that aren't watching on YouTube right now. You look healthy, you look fine. But how invasive was everything and kind of take us through that timeline and all that? Yeah, it's so weird. It's like I walk completely. fine. Like, I feel like I could go walk as much as I possibly want right now, but I can't do

anything. So it's like, it's the weirdest part is, is not, not doing anything because I'm not supposed to, not because I feel like I physically can't, if that makes sense. So, like, early on, it was easier, but, but anyway, it's a, from the sounds of, at least from the doctor, the, the, the procedure is just a microdicectomy it's it's what i'll think a lot of spine surgeons orthopedics would choose to do it from the sounds of it it's very it was 40 minute surgery it's like the size of my thumbnail where he went in like it's it's still covered so i don't know what it is but i mean the bandage is very small like it's it's it's very basic i guess when it comes to a back surgery if you will it just the my disc was very very compressed on

onto my nerve and that's what caused all of it. I mean, it just was going down my leg pretty bad. And that was the weird part is I had no back pain the whole year, like not once did my back hurt or anything. So that was where it was a bit of a shock and everything. But it just was something where it's a couple months recovery process. Like I'll probably miss a couple events in 26, but it's my thing is I didn't want to just get an injection and basically bandaid it just to to mask the pain when in reality the issue was probably still going to be there. At least as far along as I had from the sounds of the doctors I talked to if I would have maybe been like a month into symptoms, then an injection and some time off could have healed it.

But, you know, feeling this for six to eight months like I had, it just, you know, that had had sailed. So, but yeah, no bending, lifting or twisting. So I'm just, I'm just there. I'm the 20 pound baby or not even a baby I can't do anything yeah it's uh I just kind of look around and it's yeah it's like I can I've gotten really good with my feet and my toes like I can I'm starting to pick stuff up I I've told some of my buddies like this was last week um I dropped my phone downstairs like I was

in the kitchen I dropped it and Jill was upstairs and I'm like it's not worth it it's not worth it I'm like I'll just wait and so she came down like an hour and a half later it's like you know, are you good? Do you need anything? I'm like, can you get my phone? She's like, where is it? I'm like, it's over in the corner of the kitchen. Like, I dropped it like an hour ago, but I didn't have the audacity to ask you come downstairs to pick up my phone. So I just left it. When did it become clear that this is what you needed to do, right? I mean, I think ideally you would, you know, you would have said as soon as the rider cups over, let's do this now and we'll hopefully be back faster. It sounds like this kind of came about a little bit, you know, in some mode of a surprising manner.

For sure. I mean, yeah, that was the, that was the, That's more so kind of the game, or really what I'm trying not to do too much of. It's like, yeah, of course, in a perfect world, I knew that this was happening or I knew what this was before the Ryder Cup. And it was, it was frustrating for everybody, like, in my camp and me because, like, we, everything I felt was in my hip. And I struggled getting into my right side all year, like, in terms of a tendency. And I had more set up issues, like getting in the correct posture like it's set up ever. I've never had to think about how I stand over the golf ball, but all year I just kept wanting to get my back row arched

and my weight kept wanting to go left. And, you know, as the year went on and then finally after an MRI and seeing all that, I was clearly protecting against that. So, you know, it's, yeah, in a perfect world, I would have loved to know this in August or September and like the Monday after Ryder Cup, it's done. but it didn't again i did not having any back pain and and not thinking that and also playing a lot of golf i really felt like you know a month off that i took after the rider cup was you know

coming back into it trying to strengthen my hip and maybe that would get better um but it did not so here we are but it's all for the best you know long term i just i never i never thought or expected to you know have to get a surgery but i definitely didn't think i was going to have to get one before my dad had to get a back surgery like that Vegas lost heavily on that but but it's for the best and long term to where it's you know I take this recovery rehab process seriously and won't be an issue anymore do you have any idea kind of what the cause of this could be and you know oh you're you're nodding is it is it it's just got my job golf okay but I was I was going to potentially try to tie this to dad life of like it could be it could be it's different muscles and it can be taxing on

the back in particular. I've experienced that in many, many levels. And I was just, you know, curious if there was potentially any connection in your mind. I'm sure that has it's some, but I don't think, yeah, I definitely wasn't like because of it. I'm sure it didn't help things. But it's funny, that's, that is where I really noticed this issue in the first place is all the, because at nighttime Jill will always give Molly Bath and I'll always give her her bottle at night and put her down. So it's like, you know, obviously it's the same all the time. But when she's really, really small, you know, trying to anything, it's just so, so fragile almost. So it's like how many times I sat and I held her like this.

And when I look down and I get in that scrunch position is where that nerve got activated the most. And there was just a couple of nights where, I mean, I'm sitting there like looking at her and I'm getting this shot going down my leg. And I'm just like, this is weird. Like this is not, I mean, it didn't make sense. sense. And it was just kind of uncomfortable getting out. And again, there's so many things that kind of happened throughout the year that like now knowing all makes sense. But it was funny that like that was the first I really noticed it because that was like the position that really fired that kind of that compressed that disc onto that nerve and would feel it the most was

the nighttime routine. Well, that's the thing. It feels like a baby's light, right? When you're carrying them. But you don't walk around carrying a 10, 12, 15 pounds. dumbbell and just you know for for long periods of time or sit there you just there's a reason why you don't do that and it it could be it could be taxing on the body man it's crazy what's her moms have that that super strong i don't i don't get it because it is it's like you know we go we go in a gym or something it's like yes i i would like to think and and hope that like i'm going to lift more weight than jill would but like she can hold molly for an entire day and doesn't she's completely fine with that everything's normal whereas like i feel like i hold molly for like

45 seconds and I'm like she's getting pretty heavy like I'm pretty tired it's like it's just there those instincts and those yeah I don't know what it is we're not built for it I'm sure that combined with golf isn't great right I mean you know it's it's that that combination I got I always hold I got a switch it's as Marnus physio calls it ever get a lot of cases of baby arm once you get baby everybody holds it next thing you know I'm coming in I'm like I don't know what's wrong with my shoulder it's like I have a pretty good idea what uh what's been kind of i don't know a surprising thing about being a dad reflecting on on you just passed the the one year mark kind of uh and maybe tying that into how it affects your golf

in your career and all that as well but uh what's what's it look like what's it like reflecting back on the last year man it's it's it's hard to say it's of one thing i mean it's it's it's crazy like just the obviously how you know how much they change how quick it all is and um it's it definitely I noticed so much more during tournaments like especially when I was playing well and I was in contention like I feel like how much better I slept at night or you know how much the night before was better and how much the morning of was better because it's just like I don't I'm not sitting there it's not like I have nothing to do where all I have to do is think about what's going on or like the what's it's I'm taking care of I'm keeping this human being alive or trying to it. least and like having fun with her now and it's um you know it's it is it's just totally different but it's great for me because i feel like i've always been somebody that's had a hard time maybe separating the two of like when i get of the work and home and of of still thinking about what's going on out there when i'm home so um i mean as you know and anybody who's gone through it

or is going through it like you just don't really have you can't you know you can't and do and do it well at least so um that's been helpful for me because like i said that's something i feel like i've struggled with so it's it's good for me to i feel like once i walk in the door once i'm kind of getting home it's it's that's done now i'm on this because i have to focus on this and then so on and so forth what's uh what what are the what shows are in rotation right now what book and what books my wife wanted me to ask you both of those kind of uh i watched um i watched mobland i hadn't seen that i was saying kids shows like what what kid do are you oh yeah not mobland no we started uh we started sesame street uh she likes that i mean you know

miss rachel's on ever she loves miss rachel uh yeah bluey the normal normal kids i mean she's she's she likes any sounds like toys anything with music like she loves so the books that makes sounds like she's she's all for but she definitely doesn't need any toys for christmas from what I've seen in our arsenal. So maybe some clothes, but we're good on the toys. I want to get into kind of the start of your 2025 season, getting back into the winter circle. And this may surprise you, but I might have a few Ryder Cup questions for you on the back half

of this as well. But before we get into all that, take me back to 2024. Like, you were a controversial pick for Rome in 2023. That was probably your least successful season as a professional. but there was a good case to be made for taking you on that team. 2024 was a better season for you, but you were not selected for the 2024 President's Cup team. Were you surprised by that?

What was kind of the communication process like in that? I think a lot of us here kind of see you as being one of the leaders of Team USA, regardless of Presidents' Cup, Rider Cup, and continuity factor of that. But I was surprised by that when it happened. Were you and kind of what was that experience like? it was weird like i i i didn't have a good feeling about it to be honest i think um it seemed like one of those to me of like uh it had kind of been not decided but had known maybe a pretty good idea um you know the couple weeks prior it just is like it had a just

kind of a different vibe when i was around either like the automatic qualifiers or maybe captains or vice captains it just didn't give like the vibe of like you still have a chance kind of thing it's kind of like a i just had the feeling of we've already maybe decided and you aren't a part of that kind of thing and i think the biggest thing was the golf course i think with the way it was they were going to set it up with the rough being really long and the fairways being narrow and i wasn't driving it particularly well um and i think that was a huge huge part of it for them at least uh you know how the that's guys getting involved and I feel like that it was something of probably didn't think I was a good, you know, a good fit for the course, but I was still surprised.

I think because of, um, because of, you know, Rome to get picked in that situation and then, you know, feel like I, I, I earned it a little bit more. I mean, I don't, I, you could definitely make a lot of arguments. I didn't earn Rome at all. Um, but it was honestly, yeah, I wish I was on that team and happy I made Rome, but it was good for me, I think, to not get picked for that presence cup. I think either looking back, there's almost a part of me that wished I didn't get picked for Rome because it's in a sense of like, you're not just going to get this because you feel like you deserve it. You know what I mean? And I think it was easy for me to go into Presence Cup. Like, well, if I got picked last year, like, I played significantly better.

like I had a really good year finished whatever the FedEx Cup like made toward championship. I didn't win but like was in contention a lot and so like I should get picked and I didn't. So it was kind of it was easy to go back and forth on it. But internally like there's a there's a very small part of me that is glad I didn't because you know I don't need to be going in these team events or whatever it is feeling like well you know no matter what happens like I'm going to get a pick still because of who I am. which I'm, you know, I'm not that kind of person kind of thing. I want to earn my way in the teams.

Yeah. The easiest way is just to qualify, right? Then you don't leave yourself subjected to that. I think everyone would agree with that. But did you watch it? Did you tune in and kind of what, uh, what are your emotions like watching that? Do you still feel as much a part of the team, uh, in terms of invested in the team success? Definitely.

Um, I'm a, I don't know. I'm a sicko. Like I watched all of it. I was like, Jill, she's like, I don't get like, how can you watch this? I was like, I want to. like I'm a fan of golf and I'm and then you know what we got swept I think what the first session is that right second the you swept it on the opening session and then they swept that's right yeah yeah but it you know and then it was like all of a sudden I'm watching because like it's a good really good presence cup but no you know I mean it was guys like like Russell guys like Sahith I mean you know I was like I was super pumped for them because it's it you know these are guys that are very well going to be on a lot of teams in the future and you know I I reached out to, you know, everybody who got picked. And it's like everybody's well deserving, but also like go play well and enjoy it because it is.

Like it's the, these are guys I hope to be my future teammates on teams someday. But they also, they need to understand that they've earned every single right to be on that team and not feel weird or guilty about it. Because I know I even felt that way in Rome and I had been on other teams. So I can see how being a pick, you know, when you're a rookie, it's, it's easy. to kind of be like, I don't belong here, or I don't know if I should be here, but if you're on that team, you deserve that. So, you know, that felt like kind of telling some of those guys that was important too. A quick shout to our friends at Woop, of course, the official fitness wearable of the PGA tour and, of course, of no laying up. The all new Woop, it is here. It is

the only wearable that turns your health and fitness data into personalized guidance. It's 7% smaller. It has 14 plus days of battery life. That is absolutely ridiculous. You all almost never have to think about charging it. One of our favorite features from whoop has been HealthSpan, where they give you a whoop age. It's a pace of aging. It bases on nine different key metrics. I'm doing pretty well,

and most of them other than my resting heart rate is a little high, and I've got to get in the gym. I need to do some calisthenics. I need to get the heart rate up. You need to get some cardio activity. It is basically telling me I'm not aging at the rate I should be. It's almost entirely because I am not getting in and doing enough high zone, high stress workouts,

which I knew that, but it's just good to have that information to say, like, hey, like you're getting older, faster than you should be, and you can do something about that. That's what I love about whoop. It's worn by most of the top guys on tour. We can attest that whoop is not just for professionals. If you want to improve your health, no matter where you are in your health journey, WOOP can help you unlock incredibly valuable, personalized learnings. Also, a reminder, you can join the official no laying up team on Woop by inputting code, C-O-M-M-D-N-LU in the community tab of the app. If you're interested in giving the all-new Woop a trial, go to join. dot whoop.com slash NLU for a free 30 day trial.

Again, join. dot whoop.com slash NLU for a free 30 day trial back to JT. Turning the calendar over into 2025. So just for reference, around September of 2024, data golf ranking for you is around 22nd in the world. And come April, end of April, 2025, so about six months later, seven months later, you're back in the top five. There's a, you know, you fell all the way, I think, to in the 70s at one

point in 2023, clawed your way back in 2024, but you returned to being a top five player in the game as of this spring. Did you, was there, I guess, were you feeling it, you know, it had been since the 2022 PGA

championship since you had one. It was, you had to be your longest stretch, I imagine as a pro of not having one one. Were you starting to feel the pressure? You know, are you thinking about any of that when you're coming down the stretch at the RBC Heritage this past year, which you did end up winning, of course. But, you know, take us through kind of that gap in

winning which had to be uh you know something you hadn't experienced before yeah it was it was uh definitely was the longest um it honestly i felt like it had been so long it wasn't anything close to the same as it was like end of like wanting to win in 23 or when to win in 24 like it to me it had like surpassed that it was like it just like i just want to win because i just want to win golf tournaments again not because like oh it's been so long whatever but it i i felt way more pressure to do that in 23 of like okay you know i've gone a lot of consecutive seasons with the win i don't want to end that and then i did and then 24 was just like okay you know it's been a year year and a half and then it's going on two years so it's like i wanted to do it for that but then it's like

kind of once i got past that point i i i wasn't the pressure wasn't to um oh my god it's been so long it's just like the pressure the pressure is more just trying to win the golf tournament as opposed to the other pressure well there's got to be something too as well and i've I remember Jordan talking about this back in 2019 or so of just like, hey, I'm not going to swing it the same way I swung it in 2015 for a variety of reasons. My body changes. Like just you're not.

And I guess have you experienced any of that in your career? I know you love to grind over your swing videos and, and all that. Do you ever go back and say like, oh, when I was running the table in whatever year, here's how I swung it. Why can't I do that now?

You see what I'm saying? Like, are you ever trying to find like, your old path whenever you're searching for something or is it always kind of onto something new and evolving with with a swing? I don't know if that question makes sense. No, it does. I would say it's it's always always some version of the past for me. The one time I feel like I really I really tried to do something like very, very different was in 23 and it was the worst season of my career. Like I just, I've always had really, really high hands, but I just felt like they were getting higher and higher, just like they kind of had been also this past year as well.

But I just, I really tried to fix that and or change that. And it obviously did not, did not go well. It was not, it just, I didn't, I shouldn't have. I mean, it's in my DNA and something that I'd been very successful doing. So it didn't, just didn't need to. There are other things that were causing, you know, the issues that was maybe blindsided by. But it was a learning experience and I know that going forward kind of thing. But yeah, when I'm, if I'm really grinding or working on swing stuff, I would say it's always like some version of the past, but not, but trying not to, trying to be realistic, right?

Like you said, understanding that, yes, I don't move the same as when I was 22, 23 years old. but there are still some tendencies that I had that I should be able to recreate or that provided a lot of consistency, a lot of success. And those are maybe things that I just put a little bit more focus on kind of thing. That makes sense. I'm hoping this question makes sense. You know, when you were, let's say, pre, you know, up through 2022, like you were, you know, you rose all the way to number one in the world.

And in that entire time period, you and, you know, a bunch of other guys, Rory and a lot of other guys could at any point convince yourself like I'm the man right now I'm the dude right now there's only one person right now that can say that like it's a different landscape you're dealing with a different dude in Scotty Sheffler of is it different when you go to the golf course knowing he's in the field uh in a certain week knowing like hey there is a there's a force out here right now that I did not have I was not dealing with in the early part of my career does that have any kind of effect on you uh when you go to tee it up in golf tournaments these days it uh it surprisingly doesn't i mean i guess it it probably does it like deeper down in the

grand scheme of things i mean obviously but like i i personally don't feel feel any different with it i think it's um i think a lot of it is just because of who he is though right like i think it's not it's such a different way than the dominant dominant guys that have had these streaks go about it I mean, Tiger obviously had a lot of things that made him Tiger and intimidating. And, you know, I mean, DJ had same kind of thing where he just would kind of just go unconscious and was like he just seemed to just, you know, do crazy things. And obviously, same thing with Rory. And but Scotty just seems, I don't know what it is. It's probably some of it's his personality.

But he also doesn't necessarily, it's not him. Like he's not the, he's not like playing mind games. in the sense of like, I want to, I want to have this aura and, like, out intimidate you. It's more of just like, I'm just going to beat you. Like, we're going to play, if we play 72 holes, like, I'm better at golf than you. And the more golf that we play, the better my chances are of shooting lower than you. So I don't need to do anything else. Like, I'll just do that.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it is wild because it is. There's not like the, I haven't felt like, I've never had the feeling or thought of like when I get to a turn or like on a Sunday of like all right I'm playing for second today um but it's you know it's been more apparent than it hasn't so I I could definitely see like I said maybe somewhere deep down that is but like I haven't internally told myself that yet but maybe I should I don't know no I think that's a that's a I'm kind of comparing that this may not be the best comparison but I remember when Bryson was doing all the came out back in 2020 and was just bombing the ball Rory reacting and saying like out loud like it made me want to chase distant it made me want to get

into an arms race with him and change how I was doing things and you know actually that we ended up working out pretty well for him in the long term but in the short term said it led to some things that he maybe didn't want to do and it doesn't sound like what he's doing has made you go back to the drawing board of say like oh I've got to figure out a different way to get to his level because he's just changed the bar you golf just it can't really work that way I imagine yeah I mean I guess if that's if maybe I misunderstood then but there's a little bit of that I think there's kind of it's just it's so I mean Jordan and I have talked about it a lot like just us two of like it's so motivating playing with him because everything everything that he does I feel like a lot of

guys I know us too like it's completely attainable and like it's not something that like oh I can't like Rory hitting a drive like I can't do that like DJ some of the drive. drives like he hits like i can't do that like tiger with his long irons throwing it way in the like i can't do that bryson with his drives and like stuff like there's stuff that like it just it is not it's completely unattainable for a lot of players but like you go play with scotty and everything he does you're like i can do everything that he is doing and it's just i have to get better like his distance control and his spin control and like to me his just demeanor and his like intensity internally like all that stuff it's that is motivating and inspiring and feels like that is stuff that makes

makes you not go to the drawing board but like how can i control my distance better like scotty does something like that but it's not a um it it yeah it's not like a a situation like you said like with bryson and rory of like oh i got i got to start hitting it farther just basically just like i have to get better at golf yeah and on top of that he's turned into one of the best putters in the world. It's just kind of, it's, it's freaking crazy, man. Rory, he's also to blame for that. Yeah. I think he would have got there. I think he would have got there with the mallet eventually, but maybe not. Who knows? All right. On to the the main event. It's time. Let's see. Let's start with this one. The 2021 U.S. Rider

Cup team won in historic fashion at home. 2025 team made, you made a hell of a comeback on Sunday. You made it very interesting. But that team was was trounced. I think it's fair to say on home soil through the first two days of that rider cup what what happened what happened in in that time period or kind of what how did you describe the the difference in just a four year time period um i mean it's i don't really i can't like put my finger on anything like specific of like you know this was done this way this wasn't done that way whatever it is um i mean yeah it was We just got, yeah, we got smoked. We got beat.

It was like every, it was just one of those of, it seemed like every green we got on of just like, man, like if we could just make this and they could miss this, like you'd get the momentum and like we'd miss they'd make or whatever it was. And it seemed like, you know, like the captains would say, it just was like all of them watching the different matches. It was like everybody, it was the same story on every radio. It was like, you know, we missed the 12 footer like they made the 10 footer.

They made the 15 footer. Then we missed the 8 footer. And just like every match, it just seemed like it kept happening. And, you know, it's one of those things to where it's over the, yes, over the course of a season, it's like, yes, like law of averages, you're not going to just continue to make every putt and continue to hit every shot, like exactly how you want. But over the span of three days, like, if you're hot, like,

there's a pretty good chance you're going to keep doing it, right? And they kept doing it and we did not. And I think it was, yeah, just a little bit of probably us pressing and trying to come back because that's the position that we were in the whole time. but there's nothing that I could honestly say of like this was so much different at 21 than it wasn't 25 to where that was the difference versus us just getting our asses kicked. So there's a lot of ways I could go down this path, but I'll take it this way. So here's my, on that one in particular, and Keegan kind of refer to this in the post-mortem,

I guess, of like if he had the course set up part back, he would set the course up differently. I think there was a softness to the greens, having lack of rough. At times it seemed like rough was a better place to be than the fairway. If I go back to Whistling Straits, it felt like that golf course was set up beautifully to fit into your guy's strength, which you guys were a better T to Green team than Team Europe was at that time. The margin was not as strong in 2025 at Bethpage, but you were a better T to Green team. and it seemed like that setup led to a world where it turned it into a bit of a putting contest, right? So I hear, and it's a common refrain, and I guess it gets a little frustrating as a fan to hear.

They kept making more putts. It did work out statistically like that in 2025. But if you go back to Rome, like, you know, Jordan, I think said this in the post game afterwards. Yeah, it just seemed like they chipped in more and putted more. The reality is, like, they gained like 17 shots on you guys over in ball striking and two in putting, right? and they use that golf course, they set it up to take wedges out of your guys' hands and all that to say like,

I guess as me, as somebody that comments on this a lot and gets into the nerdy data stuff, like am I over, in your opinion, am I over emphasizing the effect the golf course can have on a competition like that? Or do you think,

you know, I guess do you agree with Keegan in the post-mortem to say like that the team USA made a pretty drastic mistake in setting up the golf course? Yeah, and that's my bad. I guess that I was thinking probably more of like

how you know how we no no no the other thing the golf the golf course yeah that was a hundred percent that was a huge huge thing and it was all of us would say it was a mistake just like kegan did and um and yeah it it it just was it was a bummer because yeah the you know you you didn't get rewarded for great shots like you got penalized for bad shots and like we hit plenty too but it just was more of like uh you know like i remember like can't Cam and I's match Saturday afternoon. You know, like we had a huge, huge flip there on 14 where Rory made his put and then I missed my put and they went one up and we had four holes to go.

And it was just like in a best ball, like the, you know, you had like a bowl pin on 15. Like the pin on six, like 16 is a hard hole. Don't get me wrong. But like it's in the like kind of toward the back where it feeds down a little bit. 17's in a bowl. like 18s on the front where everything goes back and I'm going through this I'm like I don't see how we can get a shot back

I'm like these green it doesn't matter where you hit it like we're playing against Rory and Shane they're playing unbelievable these are the best players in the world like they're pissed off and like they're playing so well because of that and I'm like if you get down like in four ball it is so hard to get a shot back

because of how easy this golf course is right now and it was funny playing with Cam because he's played there you know so many times and he just was like i have never in my life seen this golf course like this is so great i've never it was like i can't believe that we're playing this course like this kind of thing so to answer your question yeah that was that would be if we could start over tomorrow that would i would say be the first thing that kegan and everybody would you know would just have differently if i if i was to say i like obviously i completely agree with all that i think you've

described it better than we did in all the hours we've spent trying to describe it. But I would say this, Team Europe would never let that happen, right? They would never let that mistake happen. And again, this is where I want to kind of take this back to, I feel, I felt bad for Kagan in a lot of this process for what he was kind of thrust into. So working backwards into this question, what was your reaction to the PGA of America selecting Kegan as captain? and I'll ask it from kind of two different perspectives.

One, being an active player that could easily make the team, was on the 2024 President's Cup team, and kind of maybe separately through the lens of, like, Kagan himself, I think could and maybe would be a good captain in the future, but would you ever consider being a playing captain? Or, you know, would you ever want to do this in the midst of your playing career? And do you think that was in any way just unfair? I don't mean to lead you down that path.

I'm probably not asking that in a fair way. But, you know, as we move up the ladder to figure out how this, how these mistakes happen, I'm looking for a source there. Yeah, I see what you mean for sure. I think, I think that probably the hardest part that, you know, isn't necessarily something that was, that's talked about too much is more just kind of like the where we are at in terms of captains and like the wave of. Yeah, the gap kind of.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, we. we have to start at some point. Like, I get it. Me personally as a player, I was very excited for Keegan. And I felt like, yes, like it is, it's probably also easy to say as a player that it's doable. But like until you go through it, like as a captain, like, you know, Kegan, as someone that's actually done it would probably be the only person that could honestly say, is this doable or not, right? Like it would be something where you'd probably need to be a vice captain three, four, five times to know that goes what goes into being a captain.

So then if you are playing captain, you're like, okay, I need these X amount of people that are handling all this so I can deal with this and so on and so forth. But yeah, I just think it was something of like we've kind of had this group and not that there's anything wrong with the group, you know, that the Ryder Cup, the USA captains were using. it was like we need to maybe move on to this next wave of potential captains and and you know like we have to at some point kind of thing um so it's it's tough because it wasn't like uh you know i feel like for a while it was like well who do yeah i mean who do you want to be a captain do you want strict do you want davis do you want jim furek do you want davis like there's so many options versus it felt like you know it just was like well there's not like there's there wasn't like as big of maybe a pool to choose from a pool yeah a pull to choose from and that does I mean you know can I can we reverse engineer that and say I'm of the opinion and again I have a lot of opinions on this and I throw them out there so I want you to challenge them as some of it's obviously not in the team rooms but I'm of the opinion that that just that is backwards because I don't think the person is as as important as the plan is right and the way the Kagan thing came about was it was

a gut call it sounds like from from Seth Wall and he did not apply for the job. job did not come to them with a plan of here's how I would do it. It would be like, we think you'd be a great captain. And like, that's where I'm like, dude, that's kind of unfair to Keegan. Like, of course, I'd love to captain the Ryder Cup team. Like, I'm in the middle of my playing career. And I'd love to play in one and, and I'm, but I can't turn this down to the point where it, um, I would, I would want.

And this is where I just don't know where this all ladders up to the responsibility, right? Because it seemed like after 2014, after Tom Watson, the plan was like, here's the task force. We're going to create this environment. It's going to mimic Europe. We're going to have you be a. assistant captains and flow into the captaincy, so you have an idea of how things flow. And it just seemed like that got thrown out the window with this kind of gut instinct call to bring like a current player in, which I think can work, but it just went counter to

everything that was told to us of how things were going to be done. Right. So again, it's like I don't want to paint it as Keegan being unprepared or anything. But when you see a massive mistake like this and you go backwards to like, man, what was the plan here is where like i i guess a lot of some of my frustration is a fan of team us a yeah yeah i i think you're i i think you're pretty spot on on that i think it's something of yeah all of us felt so bad for kegan in the sense of i'm sure captains that have even captained before let alone captains that have been vice captains when they get done with their captaincy they're like man

if i could just you know i would do these couple things differently even if they've gone through let alone someone who hasn't and that that is and that's um yeah that's something that definitely needs to change to some kind of process or something that's that that doesn't put you know a potential of an unbelievable captain and kegan in a position to be viewed as anything but that right and i think uh you know i hope that he gets one if not many more chances to do it because I do. I think he was a great captain, and I think, like you said,

he was put in a very, very tough spot in terms of trying to do it, you know, his first time while also trying to make the team. But he did, you know, he did an unbelievable job and all of us felt so bad for the sense of how we, of how,

you know, we played. But like you said, I, yeah, there's, there's more to it in the sense of that he, you know,

probably learned after the fact that he, I'm sure he's chomping in the bit of like, man, you know, I get to do this again. Like I feel like, I'll do it really well. And I think that's kind of like what you're getting at is to make sure that doesn't happen.

Well, because I think it, it can, this, this part's always hard because I think what, it's just worth acknowledging like what you guys are up against in terms of, of the willingness of team Europe to dedicate so much of their lives and careers to this event, to want to win it in a really bad way. And I think it at times can get painted as you guys don't care enough about the Ryder Cup. And that's not at all what I am saying, because I think you guys want. want to win this so badly, but you're up against an opponent that they're kind of crazy over there, how seriously they take this and how passionate they are about this. And so that is,

that is now what the challenge is in front of you. So do you think that, um, the team USA in general needs to change the way they go about the Ryder Cup to be competitive with Europe on this front? I think it's nine of the last 12 now have been won by Europe. They've won two of the last four on U.S. soil. You're, you haven't won, the U.S. hasn't won since now. 1993 going to Europe as you go to a dare manner is it like all right guys something has to change in a different way of us doing this is that the mindset of you or anyone else around the team room of saying like something we got to do something different in our way of doing things yeah i do i think so it's um yeah but what what those specific changes are i'm not you know sure

entirely but something something does and and there just needs to be more i would say synergy and more just more like similarities maybe because if you know we have the president's cup like i feel like we have an opportunity of i don't want to say using that event but something there needs to be some kind of like partnership there like it doesn't make sense that they're so connective tissue it just needs to be they're just not they're not related at all they're run by two different organizations um you know and it it feels like you know there's there's just some things i feel like it's for we just maybe if it's i don't know if it's said and like put in a in a position to maybe be be more successful or or just something that's more organized to um to yeah to just

to to make sure that all the boxes are checked everything is how run how it should be done how it should be to where, you know, we're put in the best possible position to succeed and play well, I guess. I'm not sure if that's really answering. I'm trying to, yeah. Part of the challenge here is like a lot of the, you know, the previous generation of U.S.

Rider Cup players were not overly successful in this event either. I mean, that's, and they're, you know, in the team rooms now. And it's almost like, I hate to like overly generalize because there's been really successful captains and leaders. I mean, Davis Love, I think, learned a ton from 2012 and just executed the game plan perfectly at Hazeltine. Obviously, Steve Stricker was a successful president's cup captain and took that straight

to whistling straight. So it's not to say it's every time, but it is, it's just, man, it's a, it's a behemoth you're up against of just like, they've gotten, they have a, almost a mythology about their system and the people that have come before them. And they have leaders like Rom and Rory and Tommy that are just willing to fly that banner and buy in completely and just do whatever it takes for the for the team to win and I don't know if I have a question I guess like what do you yeah like what what do you mean by that and this you know what I mean yeah it just um I was working my way into convincing myself that

like a Kagan as like a player could that that method could work for team USA as a captain right of having just like a peer of yours be like the leader the like run through the door I've had dinner with Max. We talked about this for like four hours. And I was like, dude, that could be you. Like, you could be the player leader that is just like, if you are totally bought into whatever the captain is selling here, that's going to be super easy for the eighth and 12th guys on the team

to buy into that same kind of mission and philosophy and all of that. And I don't know what the word is. It's almost just like the international team has used it as called it the shield, right? Like, that's their team representation. And Team Europe has that kind of with SEVI. Like it almost feels like that's what they're all doing it for. And it just, it doesn't seem like Team USA is on a similar mission or has a similar culture icon of some kind to represent the mission.

You're talking about that with the lack of synergy between the teams of Rider Cup and President's Cup. And again, I don't know if I have an answer to that other than just like. Yeah, I wonder, somebody brought that up. And I never thought of that. And I'm curious your thoughts of like, do you think the President's Cup hurts us in terms of the Ryder Cup? It could.

Because I think of it in the sense of like, you know, like missing the President's Cup last year. I was like, it sucked, but I was like, I can make a team next year. Like I just play well and I get on the team next year. And it's like, you know, we obviously have the team events every single year. And like, we look forward to it. And like they're a blast, obviously. And we love them. but yeah it's like i i wonder if those yeah if the the people that you know that were

with in the team room the people that are running everything being different in one another or the sense of the uh you know like i'm just i picture those guys of the sense of like they miss the team it's like they have to wait a whole another two years like one year's one thing but two years like that's the difference of like this was the last chance i have in my career to make this team and and not yeah versus like you know i maybe have a chance next year to make another team you know what i mean so no totally it it i think the continued success that team us a has in the president's cup can potentially this is this is me reaching because i don't i don't can potentially add a level of complacency of look we're not totally screwed up we go and beat these guys

all the time like we know we're we're highly capable and it maybe gets a little harder to to sell out you can't It's hard to sell out to the process every single year, I think is kind of where I think we're kind of going with this, whereas Europe, you can, you have a year off and then you're back into a Ryder Cup year and you can kind of kind of sell out to that. But I want to get kind of work into some specifics here, too, of how did, I guess how did, because I think a part of what Team Europe does that's so admirable, it's like, dude, they're playing like, they're scheduling dinners with these guys and working out potential partnerships.

So, hey, when you show up this week, like you're not, you know, when we're Robert McIntyre shows up and he's not getting to know Justin Rose in Rome. Like they've playing this out in advance. You and you and Bryson were the first fours pairing off. How did that pairing come about? When did you know that was going to be a possibility? And kind of I'm curious, that was a surprising one to a lot of people. And you did not go back out the next morning.

Was that your guy's idea? It kind of take me to how that pairing came about. Yeah, it was I had dinner. keying got us together in memphis uh what i think eight of us and and yeah just had dinner um just you know more just kind of shooting the shit and just talking whatever but um and bryson was supposed to he was going to or i said i guess seven because bryson was uh flying in for it and there was some bad storms or something to where he was not able to get in but you know it just had kind of like reached out said you know missed you at dinner whatever and i just and i was just kind of like thinking

about it. It was just the drive home and I was just like, and I knew he played the 25X and I'm like going through this and I'm like, I feel like we would be an unbelievable team. I was like, I really do. And so I texted him and I was like, hey, dude, I was like, just to put it on your radar, I was like, you know, let me, if you have any interest or talk to Keegan, whatever, I'm like, but like if you have any interest in us playing kind of thing or, you know, if it's something that's come to your mind at all whatever kind of like let it go and and we just had texted a good bit back and forth and just i mean we felt like like why wouldn't it you know i mean i'm like he that sounds incredible he's going to hit it 340 down the fairway i'm going to wedge

it inside 10 feet and he's going to make the put and like it sounds what like what's he plays a 25x something that's close enough to my ball where he doesn't even have to mess with mine like i'll use his completely, completely fine with that. That's one less variable we have to deal with. And it's also like he's such a good player. It's a shame to have him not play, right? Like he's, you know, you say whatever you want about Bryson, but he's one of the best players in the world.

And having him on the golf course was a, especially in the Ryder Cup with how he is now. Like that was a huge, huge thing. And it was, so I mean, we were both into it. And we were both And I mean, it's this isn't like a Phil Tiger 2004 like this is an awkward pairing. I followed you guys match out there.

You did put great that day. But otherwise I think it could have worked like I that I'm not critiquing the pairing. I think it was just interesting of of not a lot of people were expecting that one. We were fully I mean we were told and we were also fully understood like if we if we won and we kept winning we were going to keep going. Like we were just going to keep going to keep going. And, man, I played with Cam that Friday afternoon. And, like, that's where we got done, you know, talked to Keegan. And he was like, what are you thinking for tomorrow?

Like, you know, you and Bryson out again, first kind of like they had planned. And I was like, dude, I'm like, we, Cam Young cannot not be playing. I'm like, he is playing better than anybody on our team. I was like, I played very average this morning. And I'm like, Bryson's playing well. I'm like, dude, I'm like, it's either, it's either Bryson or I. But like, Cam Young is in that match. like he can't not play like it's it was so so impressive and it was so freaking cool to watch him

just like ball out out there and um so that was where it was just like and they played a similar ball like you know yeah that that was a perfect match and it's like dude like yeah go like send them that's but whatever results in us getting a point is a better opportunity than like i'm all for it like i've always said if i play one match or five like whatever's best for the team that's I'm good with it. And that's, you know, that's what happened. But it was, I know, we've talked about it a couple of times since Bryson and I'm just like, man, I would love that matchover so bad because I just, I hate, you know, I feel like we

neither one of us could make him. He made the put on one and like we just couldn't make a put again. And like I didn't, I did not play very well. They're kind of, I just hit a couple shots that I needed to just hit a little bit better, a little bit sharper and it was like and we made that birdie on 14 and felt like that was a little bit and it just was like we can never just get you know momentum and like I hated that because like yeah I felt like we were such a good and I do feel like we are such a good team but um I just yeah I wish I had it over for the sense of maybe you know just to play a little better but do maybe go about things

a little differently that would maybe set us up for success a little bit more yeah had and Ron played well too I mean it was just they did yeah I mean that that morning that morning was insane I mean, the guys were, I think all four of their teams were, what, at least, at least four, five under, and six under an alternate shot. And it was like, we didn't play well. But, I mean, you know, to lose what, four and three, five and three to be, and we were like one under or something. Like, that's just got beat. That's, I, you know, not to make excuses for it either, but that's where I trace back to course setup too of like, man, Bryson's driving distance to exacerbate the effect that's going to have on a match. it can't be this soft, you know what I mean?

Like it, you know, there wasn't that much advantage in driving it really far and accurate for how far as he drives it. And it left it vulnerable to being a bit of a putting contest. But so what's, what's Saturday night like? You guys are down a lot. Are you, is there, is there real true belief that, that this team is alive heading into, into Sunday singles? There was.

There really, really was. It just was one of those, like, things that, yeah, we were. It just was bizarre because it was like any, and JJ and Zander won their match Saturday afternoon. But it was just like, it was like, man, we're losing so bad. And there's, I'm sure a lot of us are just like, you know, like let's not get embarrassed this week.

Like we kind of already are. I think, I think the biggest message for Keegan and everybody was just like, look, like we all, we very well know what's going to happen tomorrow. Like it's kind of right in front of us. But like, it's, It's more just like understand and like try to go to bed at night. It was kind of like the message of just like just buying into the fact that like we can do this. Not like we are going to.

Like we're going to go out. We're going to win the first whatever matches. We're going to get all this red on the board. But just like buy into believing that you can win your match. And that's it because it, you know, it's a that's kind of how it, you know, how it goes. It's all you're in control of too. I mean, exactly. And, and, you know, there could be something said for that.

of being, you know, a little too wrapped up and everything else that was going on. But it just was more everyone just trying to understand that like, look, we're going out. We're getting our asses kicked. But like we, this is something, yes, we're very, we are very, very likely not going to win the Ryder Cup. Like that's pretty obvious looking at the scoreboard. But just understand or just by end of the fact that like we could, like, we could win our matches. And there are some alternate, whatever you want to call it, that like, Like this could happen, you know, it wasn't going in.

People weren't walking on the locker. I'm like, all right, greatest comeback of all time today. Like you're going to see it. It just was like, everybody, do your shit. Just go out and play and just win a point and just see what happens. And there was about 45 minutes there where I thought it was going to happen. Dude, I was out there for like four hours. And I just, I didn't even, I was just, it was so casual viewing.

I didn't even like think, you know, all right, the board. Board was ugly at one point, even in singles. There was a lot of blue on the board. I was walking up number, what's it, five, I was walking up to five green. And I hadn't looked at it. I mean, I was, I think I was second match out, but I, like, looked up at the board. And it was five matches were blue. And I laughed out loud.

And Reb was like, don't look, don't worry about it. Don't look at the board. And I was like, I cannot think of a worse start than it is for us. It's like, geez, we're going to put 25 up on us. yeah the one thing you had going for yourselves was i mean with vick getting injured having especially needed to sit on saturday afternoon was like europe did go all out to get the lead through saturday and they were tired man like they i mean how many guys they had played four sessions and it it really showed in that but so you know i guess what is the moment of your

match when because i remember i was on 16 green when you're playing 18 and there were was this wave and that that was one for me it was like oh my oh this i saw some looks on some european players faces of like dude they're kind of worried right now yeah you want to win your match it was just kind of there was like a little bit of like it is you know you've been it's like the the the roars are different the buzz is different everything like the the level of belief is different like we're probably walking you're not different the captains aren't on the green like this maybe they're like there's just a lot of it all of a sudden it what like the captain and said it was like, it was the first time all week

where they were able to be on and be like, we made it, they missed. Like, we made it. They missed. Like, we made it. They missed. And we're just like, holy shit. Like, we keep making punts and they aren't making them. Like, and it just kept happening. And yeah, it was nuts. So I guess, you know, you wanted to win your match regardless. But at what point of your match do you start to realize like, oh my God, like, one, when you got to your put on 18, like you had to make that or the U.S. was dead,

almost certainly, right? Did you, did you know or think that at the time? But take me to that put because that was one of your better highlights of your career, I have to imagine. Yeah. I didn't think that. I didn't, like I remember in Rome against SEP, it was like the way things had unfolded

and like chip, except chipped in for Eagle on 16. And then it was like, I was one up with two to go. And then we tied 17. So it was like one up with one to go. But I was like, okay, you know, like I at least hopefully get a point here.

And, you know, absolute worst case half point whatever and then it was like a match ended and then it was like they had 14 right and then yeah because we yeah so all of a sudden it's like if i lose this hole like i am the losing point like this is not and that was nerve wracking but it was i think because there were so many dominoes that had to fall i didn't necessarily have that feeling on 18 or that putt of like i have to make this putt to keep our chances alive it was just like I have to make this putt just to like give us a point. Well, it's like you're down 12 in a basketball game and you have an open three.

You're not thinking, you don't care about missing it. You're like, if I make this, the momentum is going our way. There's no, you know, Russ's putt coming in with a lot different than like what you were facing. Yeah, it's like when you have probably so many, when you watch so many puts that they have to win holes that like when you have a putt to win a hole, it's like I can't lose the hole. Like, I mean, I feel like I had so many times where I'm just like some like kind of blowkey praying that they miss this. So we don't lose the hole and I'm like, it's way to play golf. It's it's awful. It sucks.

And I mean, you know, that's like, oh, I remember Cam and I kept talking when we get up. We're like, we just keep if they keep having putts to have holes, they are physically going to run out of holes. Like that is just what's going to happen. And that's and that was just, yeah, maybe that was it. It was just like, I had a put to win a hole. I'm like, I can't lose. Like, that's a great feeling. Like, I've had to deal with, I feel like the whole week avoiding just how to not lose this hole or this match.

And like, I'm either going to win or I'm going to tie. So it's like it is what it is. But yeah, it was epic. Yeah. I sent you the image last night. But I hadn't seen, I was way back in the fair way, didn't get to see it. But I don't know if I've ever seen a pre, you know, I've seen you walk in putts. I've never seen you drop a club before it reached the hole, though.

Like I had to be just, you know, that massive grandstand back there, the put to win. the match that had to just be the most fun ever it was it was um yeah you know you kind of hear some stories of different guys over the years of you know have putts on 18 or whatever they say something to their caddy or kind of whatnot and it was i never had anything like that and it was probably the closest i i had to it and i'm kind of at least for me like if i can visually see the line really well like it's it it clicks pretty pretty quickly and it's just like i i was behind the ball line i just remember like looking and i just kind of like looked up at the grandstands and like how big it was and i just kind of started laughing a little bit and like rev you know reads all my putts with me

kind of confirms and he he can kind of i'm like mumbling to myself or like muttering a little to myself and he's like what think i'm talking about the putt he's like what'd you say i was like i've made so many of these fucking putts in my life i was like i'm good dude like you're good and it just was weird like i never had a feeling on a put that big that like i'm going to make this but it just was it was I just won't forget like being behind there just kind of like looking up there like this is going to be so sick and it was just all I told myself I'm like just stay in it I'm like you'll be able to see the putt go in as many times as you want on on highlights if it goes in I'm like just stay in the pot like don't look up to try to watch it or anything

I'm like just hit the right speed and this is going in and it was it was really cool were the greens faster on Sunday it yeah I I had overheard people, an assistant captain on the microphones. I forget if I overheard it. I heard somebody say that, too, of saying, like, we got to get these greens faster. Like, it seemed like that was a goal, and it took several days for you guys to be able to get the greens faster. Yeah, I don't really understand that. I don't know why they weren't at all of what Keegan had asked for.

I mean, it had been pretty clear of asking for a certain speed and wanting them fast enough. and I mean I watched them argue with us that they were 13s and it's like guys we play golf every week like look on TV how many guys are leaving putt short nobody is getting you can't have a putt roll three feet four feet past the hole like these greens are slow like speed them up and it was it was just bizarre because that's not something you would expect at a home rider cup and again that's not an excuse they they had to adjust him just as much as we did but that's kind of a fun advantage you generally have is like being able to do that a little bit and it was just so frustrating that we were being fought with and argued with on the speed of the greens that we asked for so that was that was bizarre delete me makes it easy quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable delete me does all of the hard work by wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites delete me knows your privacy is worth protecting sign up and provide delete me with exactly one

what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. Delete me sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. And Delete Me is not just a one-time service. Delete Me is always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing personal information you don't want on the internet. New York Times Wirecutter has named Delete Me,

their top pick for data of removal services. Listen to someone with an active online presence, privacy is quite important to me and my family as it is ever expanding. I want to make sure my kids, you know, have, do not have a lot of their information out there on the internet as well. And delete me can help exactly with that. So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to www. JoinDeleetMe.com slash NLU promo code NLU at checkout.

The only way to get 20% off. Go to www.com join deleteme.com slash NLU at checkout. One more time. www.join deleteme.com slash NLU, code NLU. Back to the pod. Well, for those listening as well, like it's not, this is not the 90s where there's, you know, the Europeans aren't only playing on slow greens over on the DP World Tour and the Americans are playing on fast greens on the PJ Tour.

Everybody plays essentially the same tour now. But statistically, I think it would show you that the Americans, you guys put better than the Europeans do the faster the greens get. Like, that's what the granular statistical data would show. So that was another thing that was, you know, a frustration. I know you guys, know you guys were feeling as well. But how does, on Team U.S. side, how does it the relationship work between like the stats guys, scouts consulting and how all that, how all that information flows?

Is it flow directly to you? Does it flow to captains? Does it kind of, can you kind of give us an idea of what that relationship looks like? Yeah, it's kind of whatever, probably whatever you want, honestly. I mean, all the information definitely goes to captain. Captain, Vice Captains, I think a lot of guys will, like, have individual conversations with them. I know, like, in past Jordan and I have kind of sat down for them to break down, you know,

odds evens on certain courses or whatnot and just kind of tell us why. But, yeah, I mean, that's pretty much the gist of it. I think it's more probably as a resource than, you know, it's not, I don't think it's, they're not like giving us PowerPoint presentation or anything to the team type thing. I'm asking that through the lens of I mean, Scotty and Russ played different order odds and evens

on the second day than they did the first day. And I was just curious if, you know, if that level of detail was kind of given to you guys or do you go more off gut, gut feel as you get there. I was just, that was a surprising thing when it seemed like almost every other pairing

was sending the longer player off the odd holes. Yeah. I mean, the main reason they did that. And the only reason they switched is because of how the golf course was playing. They felt like it completely, it just, it took, it took away Russ's advantage or he just had so many long clubs into holes that when they broke it down, it was just more of like the course that continued to play so soft that they felt like statistically like that was not the better team or not the. the better lineup or set up for them because that's the biggest thing too is I think it's I think it's a great resource but I I think it's too much to be honest at times like it's it's it's way more of a comfort kind of thing and way more of I mean I just I go back and think

of like Tiger and I at Roll Melbourne and like I can't remember one conversation we had that had to do with like stats or like why we were doing it was just like going through and like okay if we do this like you're going to hit a lot of iron shots like obviously we want that and you're going to like these are going to be however many putts these are going to have these many putts like okay what let's go through i don't like these three t shots two of them are odds like oh okay well i like this since even's great so like let's do that it was more of that kind of situation because the difference between one guy on odds and one guy on evens is you know while it might be like a huge percentile kind of thing in reality like it's

maybe maybe like at the most like a quarter shot or something like that i would think so and in the hardest part with the with stats and analytics whatever it is is like that's that's a huge average right like that's supposed to be kind of like if we played this out through the whole year like this is what it would be but like this isn't the whole year this isn't not only is it not the whole year it's three days and not only is it three days but like two of those days we're playing a format we never play and the other two rounds like we're also playing a format we don't play we're playing our own ball but like there's yeah there's so many variables that's like that i think that they can get a little much but it's also that's just me you know like i'm not

a super i think for some guys it is it's very helpful and it's been helpful for me in past too but I just think there's sometimes you know I've gotten too like eating up with it or too into it because that's like that's what's right but in you know like reality like we were better like this is a good example I mean um like Bryce and I were better how we were of me going off odds and him evens and like I no no him going off odds me going off evens and I hated the 60 shot like I hate I hate how it looks Like I didn't love four I mean really even like two

There's like a lot of draws But like two or six I hated Like one day we went out In a practice round And I literally like I had I was like I don't know like I know we have the picture books But like with it soft and like how it is

I'm like I don't know my parameters Like I don't know what clubs I can hit So like I need the captain Like I need two captains And like I'm hitting like 12 balls off this teeth Like I need to know Like I'm gonna hit some way left I'm going to hit some way right.

Like I'm, I just, I need to know because I hate the look of this T shot. And I don't feel like I have any room for like a fade to get down there with the driver, so on and so forth. But so I did that. And like, it was very helpful. And I actually had good T shots a whole week. But that's something that's very hard for any stat person to know, then they don't understand the importance of, in my opinion.

Yep. That makes sense. I think like the best of these worlds. is a world where you are empowered with some information of like, hey, this is where we're going to put you guys in a position to succeed. And that adds to you being confident, right? Like you have like a trust in like, hey, you know,

I know they're going to try to get me 150 to 175 shots because that's where I separate myself out. And that's going to make me play with more confident. You know, that's where I feel like having, you know, a former player like in charge of that on team Europe side, just like, oh, he's hit the shots before. he's competed in this event before and he's in the numbers just makes that easier to for that relationship to all all work kind of in the same direction but yeah and it's it's hard because you know

it's they yeah maybe that is what it is but it's it's i mean i've i don't want to say arguments but like i've gotten in a lot of conversations with guys of of how to play a whole and they're like drivers a better player and i'm like no it's not it's like well statistically it is it's like maybe statistically for someone i'm like but for me like i will take a hundred 120 yards, 130 yards in the fairway over 70 from anywhere, like I, you know, or like I like, I like, I like, I like, I don't care. There's no data that you could give me that is going to get me to believe that because of me personally. And, and that could also be like a me problem in the sense of like, I feel like you have to, for those, you either have to fully buy in or you have it as a resource. I think if you kind of half in, mix it here and there. like that's when you want to apply it is yeah like it was probably how to um you know misses i think that is helpful like i remember the 12th hole uh at beth page like i shift my line probably like 10 yards left i almost was trying to hit it like in the very left edge of the fairway i mean

i'm literally just like putting the grip a little more in my anything to just make sure that my miss was left because the the left rough was like you know it was like a point three or point four difference in strokes or you know and in the whole uh the the average versus the right rough so i was like well clearly like i need to make sure that my miss is left versus right so like something like that to me is way more beneficial than how to what club maybe to hit off of a hole you know something like that it's like i remember uh a while like a long time ago like when this was first becoming something stats of almost like a company kind of like pitching themselves to me and My dad's like, you know, we'll get us, get us something and then show us, and it was for RIV.

And it was like, it was like, I remember the 12th hole looking at it. And it was like, this is a really important hole to hit the fairway. Like the scoring average of hitting the fairway in the 12th hole is this versus this. I'm like, no shit. I'm like, okay. Like, I'll just try. I'll try to hit the fairway or tail. I'm like, this is like, come on.

Like, this isn't helpful. Like, that doesn't give me anything. that is going to be like, oh, wow, I really feel like I got them this week. It's hard to when you're just dealing with such, you know, infinitesimally small decimal points of so much of this to like let it over. But you still want to take all those and let it add up. But it's just in certain, it's hard to let that override what you're feeling of like on a certainty. You can put me on a hole that's like, yeah, it's narrow and there's will be on both sides,

but drivers the play. And I'd be like, no, it's, I know. it's not i can't do that i don't want to do that so yeah it's hard man that that's the that's the hard part and and also the conversation i've had with myself of like you know if not even just a rider cup but or a team event but like if if there's like statistical or analytical values in golf compared to other sports because how much the variables change you know it's just so many little things of just like the waking how i mean how i'm hitting it that day or how how I'm feeling like my nerves like I understand that other sports have other factors as well

but it's more so the fact of like this person is a better passer as a quarterback if they throw if it's an over 30 yards if they throw it to the right side of the field versus the left side of the field like that is a stone cold fact versus it's like you know well a like the 12th hole out here like it's it's better if you hit driver versus through it I'm like but where's the wind it's like well that doesn't matter I'm like yeah it does it kind of matters a lot like how firm is it? Does it matter if you hit in the rough? Is it soft like Beth Page? I'll hit in the rough. Like it's what's, you know, there's so many things that go into it that change each and

every day, each and every week that I go back and forth of like, is there a, is there a place for it? But it could just be a personal type thing. No, that's, that's super interesting. Last thing on Rider Cup, what, what's kind of your lot been written and said about the environment there, the fan environment there? Take it, compare it to kind of some of the other Rider Cups you've played in and kind of, what was like being out there for that? Because I heard some stuff that I didn't feel like we felt like I was at a, you know, a prestigious golf tournament.

Yeah, it felt a little different, but I'm curious your perspective on that. Yeah, I think it's pretty self-explanatory and obvious that it was, it had gotten away from them. I think that, I think there just should have been a lot better plan in place from the PGA and from the security. aspect it's like you you don't want that to be what it is but you know the first first day or two you throw a couple people out for saying some stuff like people are going to stop doing things like it's it's um or just some kind of accountability right like i think that was i remember the frustration

like when cam and i played roaring chain is like people were yelling stuff and our security guy was just kind of like look in there and it's like no it was our even like our um not our security guy but our official he just was like standing there and rory's like can you do like can you help us here like these people are yelling at us and he's just kind of like sitting there so it was just a it didn't feel like there was a very good plan put in place of of how are we going to handle it when it gets to that because it's which how could they have ever seen that coming you know at beth pay i mean yeah new york fans yeah it's it and it's you know it it sucks because i don't want to I'm never, am in no way, saying it in the sense of, of, of dog in the area or anything.

It's just like, it's a very northeastern New York, like, fans are intense. Like, you go to, I remember going to a Yankees Red Sox game in Yankee's Stadium with my uncle, my cousin, and, like, I was, like, seven. And I had a no more Garcia Par jersey on. And I remember, like, a grown man giving me the finger. Like that, it's like that, it's like I, I'm like, you play the 2019 PG- at Beth Page as well, right? Like, you know, it's different for a team sport, but still, like, 2002 U.S. Open at Beth Page

was different than most. Like, you go to, yeah, I mean, you go to sporting events. Like, I'm pretty sure if, you know, you had a right fielder out there and on the other team in Yankee Stadium and guys are yelling at him. And, like, he turned around and start chirping him back and started, you know, cussing at him. Like, they're probably going to keep giving them a hard time, you know?

Like, it's, but the hard part is, is like, it's, it's golf. right so it's the it's having a hard time of separating the well you know this is golf like it's you're not supposed to we have all the history and we don't act that way but it's like it but like this is the rider cut first off and we're in new york like it's it's it's gonna be rowdy um and it it's none of us wanted that none of us uh hoped it would get to that and it sucked i felt i felt i felt terrible um know just especially I've always said I mean we get yelled stuff yelled at us all the time I mean the way rider cups like we always are getting bashed and yelled at but it was just like anytime it starts getting into like you know families or talking to the wives like I just that

that I hate that like I felt terrible for for for Wendy and Eric out there and told them that because it was like they they didn't deserve that like they just rather trying to watch your husbands you know went a point and and had to deal with it so yeah it was it was unfortunate like I hated that it was as much of a talk as it was because it takes, you know, it took away from the rider crop, like a huge deal, right? Is there, and I don't mean to lean you down a path here in particular. I know you're the son of a PGA professional as well. So it's, but deep, Europe, it's easy for them.

They are playing for the D.P. World Tour. And you guys play the PGA championship every year, but you play the PGA tour. you don't, you know, the PJ of America is not the body of, you know, the organization you're representing most of your time. Is there a, you know, does that lead to any disconnect or kind of distrust in the process? Because like you're sitting, you're having to explain and talk about things that could have been under controlled a lot better by this organization that, you know, again, you play this event in the PJ Championship for it.

I'm just kind of curious as to, you know, as we ladder back to some of these issues and leader, no, captaincy potential and all that. I'm curious what the player's relationship is like with the PGA of America. And I don't even mean to take that down the money path that has been down before. But there's clearly, I think it's been, it's fair to say there's been a little bit of clashing over the last several years. It's a good point. I think a lot of it kind of, you know, goes back to like similar stuff that we would say often about like the U.S. Open is in the sense of like the, the, the USGA with the U.S. Open and the PGA

with the PGA championship and Ryder Cup are being at it's kind of similar to I mean different but to an extent of like Keegan like they're getting put in a they're being put in a situation obviously now they do it every year but still like the PGA tour does this every single week like they put events on like they understand the corporate sponsorships they understand not that the PGA doesn't USGA doesn't but just more of like

more season how life works yeah like the more you do something the more comfortable you're going to be doing it right so i think there's something to be said of that of and i don't know if um like i know with with the usGA and they've gotten so much better as like it felt like very ego based and past of like well no like we know like we know what we're doing it's like well clearly you're showing every year you don't like you're not setting the course up well like you're being handed the best golf courses you could possibly imagine and you're still finding a way to screw it up like maybe talk to a pGA tour official who sets golf courses up every single week for the best players in the world like that seems like that would be a

pretty like not i'm not the smartest person in the world but that seems like a pretty good fix or at least a step in the right direction and they've gotten a lot better with that and and the pga is great with with that in that sense but i do think that there's some things in that regard that that i think golf um some of the tournaments just unfortunately to take, not take a beating, but set themselves up for failure almost because we have so many different organizations running these, you know, running these huge tournaments and huge weeks and, you know, and all these that they do once every two years, that they do once a year, that they're, and it's not like, you know, they're not Augusta that is obviously

at a different ballpark, but they're also doing it at the same place every year where they're able to put their revenue back into where we're going the next year and so on and so forth. And they're perfecting the same,

the same, the grounds every year versus I think that's so hard of, you know, US Open having to go to Oakmont one year and then from Pinehurst the year before where they have to completely build out a locker room. And then they go to another place where like,

you can have a locker room, but not real. So it's like that, is tough but you have some decent resources in the in the pga tour or somewhat um and again i i probably shouldn't say too much because i maybe they do that i don't know sure but it seems like some of that stuff could could be tightened up a bit um just to just to help themselves right for sure it speaks to the continuity factor too i mean just you have dp world tour employees like dedicate themselves to the rider cup right and that's just not how things work on the pjave america

aside of the house but yeah it's little things yeah like uh of yeah i don't want like if something's wrong or i don't you know i'm trying to figure out how to uh get a car like i don't i like i don't know who i'm calling i don't i don't even know who the person is versus like if anything's wrong at a tour event like i'm calling phil marburger i'm calling that court like i'm gonna call one of them and they're going to know what to do and they're going to help versus like it is there's something to be said that a lot of the staff is similar but when you're dealing with something as big as a rider cup or as a major like it it is so many so many moving pieces that it requires a lot of different people obviously so yeah that's a lot of people that we don't know or never met and um you know it's the way it is

but at the same time it anything can always be better right so hopefully you know that'll trend that way marburger's going to love that he got a shout out on this pot but uh Last front, and maybe this could hold be a whole separate pod at some point. But one, have you met with Brian Rolap yet, new CEO of the PGA Tour? Kind of what are your impressions? I know we've spent a lot of, you've dedicated a lot of time on this pod of talking about the future of golf and all of this. And it kind of somewhat feels like an afterthought now that it feels like the PGA Tour is on a different path. But what are your impressions and kind of reaction to how things are evolving there?

Yeah, I've spent, I had a great conversation. with Brian on the phone for a while, you know, I've seen him a little bit here and there and talked a little in person, but I'm very, very impressed. I think it's something that's very important. I know for me, but I think a lot of guys is like we just have a lot of respect for them. I don't think you get a position that high up in an organization like the NFL without doing things really, really well and productively. And I think that, um, I know for myself, but I think a lot of us just have kind of belief that he he's looking at this, you know, with now being a for-profit entity is like, how can we maximize the PGA tour? How can we get the most exposure to get the most, you know, get way more fans, get way more interest, get way more eyeballs on the sport? like what can we do to achieve that and it's you know i you can't argue i mean the NFL's i mean the amount of people that watch the NFL and like he's seen the ins and outs of what they do there to where you obviously can't apply everything but you'd be crazy to say that they he can't take some of that and and and kind of put that into the pGA tour and golf and i think that

you know he he he's excited i'm sure in the sense of like he sees a huge opportunity of being able to improve our product and get it better. And I think a lot of us players have belief in him because of his track record. And also he's, I like the fact that he doesn't dilly dally around like he doesn't BS with you. It just, I feel like I'm having a conversation with you. And he's not going to give me some kind of like lawyer correct answer.

He's just going to tell me what it is and why he thinks that is what it is. and he's going to give you your reason behind it because he thinks that's right because this is exactly why and that's why we're going to do it. So I think it's going to be easier for guys to maybe buy into potential changes that he may do because, you know, there's a reason he's doing it. He's not just doing it for fun. He's a businessman first. And I think, you know, while there might be some big changes and some stuff that may be hard

swallow at first or whatnot, I think it's, you have to try to look big picture and grand scheme of things and what it will do, you know, for the sport long term. And that's, you know, I think he's got great, great intentions for that. Yeah, a couple of conversations I've had with him. I'm just kind of like, is this on the record? Like, you know, do we need to establish? He just says, says some, you know, relatively aggressive things that are just, yeah, this is blah, blah, blah, that's outward. And I'm like, Oh, okay. That's interesting that you're not really just how direct he can be. So what do you, Harris English made some comments about a potential new look of a schedule. What do you, one, know about that or two, what do you think a future schedule of the PGA tour might look like and when might be expect that?

Yeah, I don't know. I'm on a different, I guess different subcommittee in terms of PAC than Harry or I haven't been in those conversations. I mean, there's there's been so many iterations or talks or just versions of like what what the future could look like. You know, I think it's there's just there's, I think we, the, the core is good. It's just so needs some rearranging and, and maximizing opportunities, right? Like I think it's just, you know, it's just, it's such a. bummer that we it was always so fun the beginning my first couple years on tour of like we always had that tournament the bar the barclays was up in new york or in jersey and then we go to

boston and like those the fans that came out to those and like the golf courses like it was so many people came out and it was so fun and obviously like new york and boston massive markets and um i just think it's it's maybe the hard part is it when it comes to some of those vents like if someone offers up a huge some money like it's hard to say no to but it's it's hard for us to get as excited about playing some of these places when they're not uh you know maybe the atmosphere that we should be having in a playoff event or a golf i mean like chicago the amount of golf good golf courses in chicago that we don't play it's just like it's it's it sucks really right like you know the golf fans and and and guys that have experienced it like it's

I can't imagine one player that says that that's a good move, you know, missing those events. So I just think it's a little bit of like fat trimming and just making what we have way better. And I think that, you know, he's got those intentions. And I'm sure there will be some big changes at some point. But now, in terms of anything specific or timeline, I'm not not positive on that. Just show up and play. That seems to be your. Yeah, right now I'll go anywhere.

It sounds great. Well, I know you're going to be shelved for a while. You can come join us for any Sunday recap pods as you see fit. If you're going to be, if you're going to be this for it. Golf tournaments, well, I guess, yeah, I guess I miss some. Yeah, maybe I'll do that. If you're, uh, yeah, listen, you've given us. I was just thinking, uh, it's over 10 years ago.

We did our first podcast together now, which is, which is very crazy to think about. Um, did I ever tell you the story of, of the timing of that one, how that got messed up? or, uh, because I was living in Amsterdam and I was like, yeah, hey, uh, I'm like six hours ahead of you. So if we could do it like my nighttime for me, you know, afternoon for you, that'd be great. And you're like, okay, cool, let's do 8.30 Eastern. And I was like, uh, okay. And I got up at 2.30 in the morning to record that. I did not know that now. I differ. I could have easily been like, yeah, that's 2.30 the morning for me, maybe a different time. I think you like, I don't know if you transpose the time zones, but I don't think I ever told you that I got him in

Bill of a night for that one. But that was a long time ago. But yeah, greatly appreciate your time. Yeah. Greatly appreciate your time. As always, man, best of luck with the recovery. And I'm sure we'll be chatting soon. You got it, man. Thanks.